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Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?
Indeed, it's the second thing.

And it's more than that, too: it's not just "you disobeyed my rule." It's why they did it: the serpent tells them they will "know good and evil." I suspect this is one of those areas where the translation is confusing things, because "know" in this case probably means "determine." In other words, it's not saying "eat this and you'll know more! Yay learning!" It's "eat this to decide for YOURSELF what's right and wrong."



You can't win an argument just by being right!
oh oh oh... @Dani8 before I vanish for 8 minutes again.
fun, trippy thread, hey!

LOL bring me back a coffee, ynwtf. I shall bring soft boiled eggs and vegemite soldiers. Oh wait, that's for the food thread. Carry on.



Or was he actually just giving them a prod to use free will so they learnt that everything has a consequence? That could actually be deemed as a good thing, could it not?
No joke, there's a great novel called Perelandra (possibly my favorite book) where someone makes this exact argument to try to tempt someone else into disobeying. It's basically a big theological discussion interwoven into a sci-fi narrative.



You can't win an argument just by being right!
It's "eat this to decide for YOURSELF what's right and wrong."
So comes back to what I was saying to mesmerising - that's a good thing, right?

Disclaimer, I am not a satanist before anyone assumes. I dont even believe in the devil. I have read LaVey's bible, though.



You can't win an argument just by being right!
No joke, there's a great novel called Perelandra (possibly my favorite book) where someone makes this exact argument to try to tempt someone else into disobeying. It's basically a big theological discussion interwoven into a sci-fi narrative.
Writing that down on my book list.



So comes back to what I was saying to mesmerising - that's a good thing, right?
Well, that depends: when you hear someone say someone "tried to play God"--are they usually giving them a compliment?

I don't think it's a good thing, no. But then, I have the benefit of hindsight for all of human history and all the misery that has resulted from us trying to do things our way. Without that, I assume I'd have made the same choice.



That elusive hide-and-seek cow is at it again
Or was he actually just giving them a prod to use free will so they learnt that everything has a consequence? That could actually be deemed as a good thing, could it not?


oh yew! stop playin devil's advocate



As my old man sometimes says: "the Devil has enough advocates already."

He had to say this because I'm pretty much constantly playing devil's advocate, of course.



You can't win an argument just by being right!
oh yew! stop playin devil's advocate
Wasnt there a yew tree in the old testament? I'm a bit rusty.

Like Yoda, I always play devil's advocate when I'm trying to find which side of the fence I sit on. Besides, my evil legal background makes me do it. I have no free will, much like god's henchmen.



And further to that, does god really know right from wrong? He thought it was ok to sacrifice his own son to torture and death. In my world, infanticide for any reason is pretty bad.
Well, that's the question of all the questions, in my book. Why does evil exist?

I believe God sent him downstairs to fight for Him and help people, but every action, even that, must have a consequence. One always has to pay for action by passion, even if the action is in the best intentions. He could've said no to the cross, but that would make matters even worso, imho.

But if you'll insist, I have no answer. Simply because I don't understand why does evil exist.

All I can say:

I really do believe that faith can move mountains, and if you truly believe good will win in the end, it will.

Like all beings, he was created to know and to love God. Henchman? No. He was the angel of light before he became the devil.
Yes, as far as I know he was the prime angel.

If God is omniscient and god created Satan then God created Satan to be evil.

In that case, if Satan was created to be 'evil' then is he 'wrong' if he does good?

Wel...I don't know...maybe satan wasn't evil to begin with. But if he was, I'd anwer in the affirmative.

I'm the unknown quantity.



Do you really believe God killed His Son? Or did He allow it to happen?
Well, in a sense, I think yes. He did kill him. It just had to be done. And he allowed it to happen, imho.

It is not possible for Satan to do good.
I agree.

LOL that was Santa!

You really need to watch Bryan Fuller's Hannibal. They touch on theology a LOT. Fascinating. Hannibal knew right from wrong. He just thought he was on the same playing field as god.
Yeah, that FAT bastard!

The second part I just don't understand.

I used more smilies in a single post than all my posts in life put together. Given the subject, it's the only way to get out of here alive.



Yes, by implication.

Originally Posted by ynwtf
Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?
I think it's more simple than that. I think the point is that god wanted people to live in faith and, in doing so, it would eliminate strife/worry etc (which are all born of knowledge/perception) and unnecessary complication. I actually think the difference between 'happiness' and a life of torture lies therein. I've personally gone down many a dark path and know what kind of thoughts and emotions are seeded in walking them.



You can't win an argument just by being right!
Hannibal thought he was capable of challenging god as per Bryan's interpretation. Mads Mikkelsen plays him as THE fallen angel Lucifer. He knew right from wrong; he just liked doing bad sht.

I have no answer.
Me either.



You can't win an argument just by being right!
OT for a sec - the OP of that forum I linked refers to god as the tyrant. Urmmm goosebumps. Didnt someone here recently refer to Yoda as the Tyrant??? Getting scary.

OK resume normal broadcast.



I believe that you believe that. I also believe that you (generically 'you') can't live here on Earth and not be forced to equivocate on that point.
I agree. A lot of seduction is happening down here.

So knowledge is bad? Knowledge is what Satan gave to man (through Eve).

You can't rebut this without being a hypocrite.
I believe knowledge as such is evil. Hell(no pun intended), I think the two may even be the same. But it also may be the only instrument to destroy itself.

Would He be more godly if He had forced mankind to act according to His will? How do children demonstrate love for their parents if they are forced to act one way or another? If we can't choose to act according to what's in our heart, then what's the point?
I agree. We seem to agree on a lot, Mesmerized.

I soooo don't want to get bogged down in details of a tangent BUT... i must

Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?

I guess a pedophile could claim that he/she was just teaching the birds and the bees. I mean, one day that information would be useful? WOAH hahaha I can't believe THAT just rolled off my keyboard. ..mmmmmk, then! I'm just going to slowly back away from the keys and go get a coffee to reflect on wtf.
No, no, satan didn't do good. We all know about promises. And I'm writing here for the last time - IMHO. It is the latter. I think. For the last time - .

As my old man sometimes says: "the Devil has enough advocates already."


Wasnt there a yew tree in the old testament? I'm a bit rusty.

Like Yoda, I always play devil's advocate when I'm trying to find which side of the fence I sit on. Besides, my evil legal background makes me do it. I have no free will, much like god's henchmen.
You're very sexy when you're evil.

Yes, by implication.



I think it's more simple than that. I think the point is that god wanted people to live in faith and, in doing so, it would eliminate strife/worry etc (which are all born of knowledge/perception) and unnecessary complication. I actually think the difference between 'happiness' and a life of torture lies therein. I've personally gone down many a dark path and know what kind of thoughts and emotions are seeded in walking them.
I agree.



Ghouls, vampires, werewolves... let's party.
They were under his control to do his bidding is what I was taught. He didnt give them free will.

Dani8, if that is what you were taught, then I am sorry for you. You were very poorly catechized. Angels do, indeed, have free will.


Please relearn your faith.



From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.

330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil". The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

http://scborromeo.org/ccc.htm



You can't win an argument just by being right!
And I'm writing here for the last time - IMHO. It is the latter. I think. For the last time - ..
Hey what? Dont leave the thread.We now get to discuss if Tyrant Yoda is a bad god or a benevolent god.

OK back to the OP - so social constructs developed the moral code, not necessarily religion, and all for survival is what I'm thinking at the moment. Anyone care to agree or disagree? I;m still open to switching sides of the fence. So if true, was it the power of society that then transplanted that onto holy books to help explain it? Chicken and the egg?



You can't win an argument just by being right!

Please relearn your faith.
What faith? I told you, I walked away at the age of 11.



You can't win an argument just by being right!
Here's a curly one for @Beatle after some comments you made the other day in the astrology thread. What do you think?

Since Lucifer means "morning star" which refers to Venus, wouldn't it actually be interesting if Lucifer was a female angel.

This actually makes sense. Note the rampant chauvinism in the old testemant and Koran. If these are books written by followers of god, then they would be against females, since it was a female who stood up to god. Of course in reality chauvinism is in the old testemant and Koran because they were written by men as a justification to control women, but for the purposes of our fun little story lets pretend Lucifer and God are real.
I can go with this theory, I think. Will ruminate some more.



Hey what? Dont leave the thread.We now get to discuss if Tyrant Yoda is a bad god or a benevolent god.
haha, no my darling. I'm not leaving you. I meant I'm writing "IMHO" for the last time (which I obviously wasn't). But I will take a leave. This is becoming monstruous, too monstruous for my taste, at least. Gonna post some new Beatles tracks now. Music heals.

I think Yoda is benevolent.

What faith? I told you, I walked away at the age of 11.
VERY sexy.



You can't win an argument just by being right!
Oh stop that

Werent the Beatles friends of Aleister Crowley? Also friends of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? So where do you think their moral compass came from - religion, the occult, or interconnectivc\ity (I just made that word up. My transcendental meditation education is also rusty).