Not feeling too cool about Israel right now...

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Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
In today's news, 600 people fleeing for their lives wound up stuck in a tunnel because Israeli police wouldn't allow them into Israel. Israeli spokesmen turned them back with the claim that they weren't in real danger - and then turned around and said that they didn't want the Gazans passing through because it could bring the political attacks into Israel.

I can understand not wanting to destabilize an area. But you really can't say that someone briefly passing THROUGH your land to live on the other side of it is going to bring destabilization while also maintaining that they don't need to flee for their lives because everything is cool and they're just overreacting. Israel is proving that there IS real danger, by saying that the Gazans' merely passing through could destabilise the country.

Full story here.

Your thoughts?
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I am having a nervous breakdance
The decision not to let any Palestinians into Israel although full scale civil war is threatening Palestine is of course not very humane, but it isn't very surprising either. The Israelis aren't very happy about Palestinians travelling briefly to or through Israel in the first place and since they were pretty much at cold war with the Hamas ex-government a closing of the border is what you could expect.

I've been thinking about this and about starting a thread here but haven't gotten around to do it.

This development in Palestine is the result of many things, the world's sanctioning of the Hamas government being one very important factor. It's practically impossible to run the country successfully as the conditions are and I think that there must be better ways to put pressure on Hamas to cease their extreme anti-Israel policy. The world supported and demanded democratic elections but didn't accept the result.

I think it will get a whole lot worse before it gets better....
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The novelist does not long to see the lion eat grass. He realizes that one and the same God created the wolf and the lamb, then smiled, "seeing that his work was good".

--------

They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.




I think it will get a whole lot worse before it gets better....
Unfortunately I think you are right, and I do not care who you support or who you are against; "you" should give aid to those in need, if you know that those in need are not hiding behind that title to cause harm.
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Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
The decision not to let any Palestinians into Israel although full scale civil war is threatening Palestine is of course not very humane, but it isn't very surprising either. The Israelis aren't very happy about Palestinians travelling briefly to or through Israel in the first place and since they were pretty much at cold war with the Hamas ex-government a closing of the border is what you could expect.

I've been thinking about this and about starting a thread here but haven't gotten around to do it.

This development in Palestine is the result of many things, the world's sanctioning of the Hamas government being one very important factor. It's practically impossible to run the country successfully as the conditions are and I think that there must be better ways to put pressure on Hamas to cease their extreme anti-Israel policy. The world supported and demanded democratic elections but didn't accept the result.

I think it will get a whole lot worse before it gets better....
That's a pretty horrifying thought, but I can't contend it. It will take atrocities much worse, judging by events in other places and our political arm around Israel, before much changes. The loss of human life (and humanity) is disturbing, though.



Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
Unfortunately I think you are right, and I do not care who you support or who you are against; "you" should give aid to those in need, if you know that those in need are not hiding behind that title to cause harm.
This is exactly how I feel about it, actually. I'm beyond trying to suss out who's at "fault" - it's all been going on for far too long, over there, for me to weigh in now. But the duplicity in the statements released by Israel in response to this particular event seem contradictory to me.



I am having a nervous breakdance
I must say that I think the Israelis are acting in a logical manner. The borders been nearly unimpossible for Palestinians to cross for a long time and with the current situation in Gaza in mind I would have been very surprised if the Israelis would have opened up the borders instead of closing them completely. With that said, I do think the Palestinians are in a very big need of help, as they have been for decades now, but I wouldn't expect that help to come from Israel.

From what I've heard Israel has requested help from UN. Perhaps this is the time for international troops to get in there and seperate all parties and keep them from fighting for 20 years or so. Then, perhaps, Israel and a functioning Palestinian state can live side by side in peace. This probably means going over the head of the Israel government which I am pretty sure USA will not allow.



Ugh, I'm trying my best to refrain from making harsh anti Israel comments. However to me, this isn't news. The Israeli's have been doing this sort of thing on a bigger and bigger scale gradually. One day the genocide of the Palestinians won't seem that big of a deal anymore.

that being said I just want to see I haven't had time to read all the full stories on this event,but when I do I'll get back to you guys.
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I must say that I think the Israelis are acting in a logical manner. The borders been nearly unimpossible for Palestinians to cross for a long time and with the current situation in Gaza in mind I would have been very surprised if the Israelis would have opened up the borders instead of closing them completely. With that said, I do think the Palestinians are in a very big need of help, as they have been for decades now, but I wouldn't expect that help to come from Israel.

From what I've heard Israel has requested help from UN. Perhaps this is the time for international troops to get in there and seperate all parties and keep them from fighting for 20 years or so. Then, perhaps, Israel and a functioning Palestinian state can live side by side in peace. This probably means going over the head of the Israel government which I am pretty sure USA will not allow.
It is unclear whether or not Israel has sought U.S permission to invade the Gaza strip in a more agressive manner. In any case, Israel must act in a constant state of readiness, whcih includes closed borders. However, they will provide as much refuge as possible.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070620/D8PSI6N82.html

Israel helps the innocent civilians of Pakistan as much as possible, but they cannot (nor should they be expected to) allow humanitarian aide to displace national security as a priority. It is a cold and even callous view of things, but that's war. It is not their responsibility to help these people because he borders have closed. The people flee to Israel, because Israel is one nation in which terrorists are not rampant in neighborhoods, hiding and needlessly endangering civilians. People flee to Israel because the 60,000 (if I recall correctly) Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the occupied territory have more rights and protection than they do in their own country.

The U.N will not do anything. Did the U.N enforce Resolution 1559? No. Instead, the legitimate Lebanese gov't, due to widespread corruption among other things, was infiltrated by Hezbollah (the militia puppets of Syria).

As far as the U.S support of Israel, while strong, the United States continues to bow to international pressures within the U.N (as resolution 1701, the resolution arranging a cease-fire last summer shows).

Last summer was a widely regarded defeat for Israel. In the final debriefing, analysts says that Israel's fault lay in its relative inaction. Res. 1701 handed victory to the jihadists and left Israel in a weak position for the next time. The lesson seemed to be that when given a chance to take out terrorists, Israel must seize such a chance because the United States will not help in procuring more time and the U.N will certainly not be any aide in upholding anti-terrorist resolutions. This summer will be handled differently. The area is different, yes, but given the opportunity, Israel will exchange short-term chaos for hopefully long-term benefits.
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I am moved by fancies that are curled
Around these images, and cling:
The notion of some infinitely gentle
Infinitely suffering thing.
T.S Eliot, "Preludes"



I am having a nervous breakdance
It is unclear whether or not Israel has sought U.S permission to invade the Gaza strip in a more agressive manner. In any case, Israel must act in a constant state of readiness, whcih includes closed borders. However, they will provide as much refuge as possible.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070620/D8PSI6N82.html

Israel helps the innocent civilians of Pakistan as much as possible, but they cannot (nor should they be expected to) allow humanitarian aide to displace national security as a priority. It is a cold and even callous view of things, but that's war. It is not their responsibility to help these people because he borders have closed.
I'm assuming you're talking about Palestine and not Pakistan. Nevertheless, up to here I'm pretty much with you, even if I see no reason why Israel couldn't do more to act civilized in this situation.

The people flee to Israel, because Israel is one nation in which terrorists are not rampant in neighborhoods, hiding and needlessly endangering civilians. People flee to Israel because the 60,000 (if I recall correctly) Palestinians living under Israeli rule in the occupied territory have more rights and protection than they do in their own country.
No.

Palestinians are fleeing from the Palestinian territories because chaos is governing those areas. The chaos is the result of the total impossibility for the Palestinian government to run the state, which in turn is the result of Israel's decision to withhold the hundreds of million of dollars from Palestine as a way of punishing the Palestinian people for democratically electing the wrong government. At the same time the Israelis, together with USA and Europe, actively support Fatah and thus reinforced the development which resulted in what could be described as a civil war.

Israel is a nation that, although troubled by considerable worries, doesn't suffer the consequences that the Palestinians have to suffer. Israel is a functioning democracy (it is a lot of other things too, but, still, it is a democracy) while Palestine, under the Hamas government, was never allowed to develop into a functioning democracy. And how do you expect the Palestinians to respect democracy when, clearly, the Israelis, America and Europe only respect democracy when it renders the result that these nations and federations agree to? The world demanded democratic elections in Palestine but they didn't accept the outcome. Not only that, they punished the Palestinian people fiercly for electing the socially concerned but fundamentalist Hamas as opposed to the then corrupted Fatah (or the militia puppets of USA, if you will).

The U.N will not do anything. Did the U.N enforce Resolution 1559? No. Instead, the legitimate Lebanse gov't, due to widespread corruption among other things, was infiltrated by Hezbollah (the militia puppets of Syria).

As far as the U.S support of Israel, while strong, the United States continues to bow to international pressures within the U.N (as resolution 1701, the resolution arranging a cease-fire last summer shows).

Last summer was a widely regarded defeat for Israel. In the final debriefing, analysts says that Israel's fault lay in its relative inaction. Res. 1701 handed victory to the jihadists and left Israel in a weak position for the next time. The lesson seemed to be that when given a chance to take out terrorists, Israel must seize such a chance because the United States will not help in procuring more time and the U.N will certainly not be any aide in upholding anti-terrorist resolutions. This summer will be handled differently. The area is different, yes, but given the opportunity, Israel will exchange short-term chaos for hopefully long-term benefits.

There is little point in arguing with someone who seems to think what is going on in the region could be described as an ongoing war between Israel and "jihadists". The conflict in Lebanon has nothing to do with the conflict between Fatah and Hamas in the Palestinian territories. At least, I don't understand the connection you're making, but you clearly has a pretty generalizing view of non-Israelis in the area. I'm supsecting that has something to do with the widespread evangelical idea in America that the Israelis are serving as protectors of The Holy Land and defending it against "jihadists", that is everyone outside of the christian/judeo heritage. That, unlike the anti-Semite notion of some kind of global zionist consipiracy, is the reason to why Israel has the world's biggest brother and can do pretty much whatever they want to in the region which will lead to more chaos and death in the longrun.



It only needs one person to be wired up to kill Israelis
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crazed out movie freak
This whole conflict all revolves around land rights. It has been going on since Biblical times and will never cease, until God restores the nation of Israel. It's all in the Bible.
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The irony, of course, is that Hamas has been more effective at controlling incursions into Israel and dealing with kidnappings in Gaza etc. than the 'moderate' Fatah faction ever was. Their 'failure' to govern has far more to do with the Fatah military resistance (since crushed in Gaza - the 'refugees' in this case were almost certainly Fatah fighters and their families, fleeing from the defeat of their rebellion against the ELECTED GOVERNMENT), the international community's decision to end financial aid to the Palestinian people in retaliation for their decision to vote for a Hamas government, and Israel's ongoing efforts to undermine the viability of ANY government in the Occupied Territories than with Hamas itself.



I am having a nervous breakdance
The irony, of course, is that Hamas has been more effective at controlling incursions into Israel and dealing with kidnappings in Gaza etc. than the 'moderate' Fatah faction ever was. Their 'failure' to govern has far more to do with the Fatah military resistance (since crushed in Gaza - the 'refugees' in this case were almost certainly Fatah fighters and their families, fleeing from the defeat of their rebellion against the ELECTED GOVERNMENT), the international community's decision to end financial aid to the Palestinian people in retaliation for their decision to vote for a Hamas government, and Israel's ongoing efforts to undermine the viability of ANY government in the Occupied Territories than with Hamas itself.
Well put, Sir.

Although, I believe the Gaza refugees were in fact refugees for the most part even if some Fatah paramilitaries of course were among them.

And I do not think that Fatah is the only ones to be blamed for the fightings. They did, after all, have a significant influence in Abbas as president.

But I fully agree with you on that Hamas are much more anchored to the common man in Palestine, and that's why they were elected in the first place.

It's all another example of bad dimoplacy on behalf of the West. If we had decided to talk to Hamas instead of sabotaging their govern, I'm sure we could have actually been making some progress here. So, Hamas want to wipe Israel out? I am pretty sure that Israel wants to wipe Hamas out as well.

The way Hamas handled the kidnapping of the BBC journalist was good PR for them and again shows their power and real influence in the territories.



The only good news I see in the region is the Arab League's unprecedented overture, which might actually force Israel to negotiate seriously. It's the kind of move the Arab governments should have made a decade ago, because the proposal is a reasonable starting position for negotiations (withdrawal to pre-1967 lines in exchange for formal recognition, the normalization of relations with the entire League and the end of Syrian support to Hizbollah), and is something that should force the rest of the world to put Israel's feet to the fire.

That said, the American press is burying this, so it may not result in any American pressure on Israel, which would obviate any need for the Israelis to negotiate in good faith.



Frankly, I, too disapprove of Israel's occupation of West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem, with their settlement policies, demolition of Palestinian civilians' homes, killing & maiming of innocent civilians and humiliating checkpoints for the Palestinians. That being said, imho, the only safe, sane and sensible solution to this decades-old conflict, imho, is the two-state solution with an independent, sovereign Palestinian nation-state alongside Israel, which would be comprised of West Bank and Gaza Strip, with East Jerusalem as its capitol. To achieve this, Israel must withdraw its troops and settlers from WB, GS and EJ, and allow the Palestinians to create their own, independent sovereign state in those territories. The two-state solution is what the vast majority of Israeli Jews and Palestinians want.



Unfortunatly this happens on both sides you don't think that the people who have died because of suicide bombers weren't innocent also
I know I'm rather late in responding to your post, nebbit, but, yes, I agree that both sides have killed and maimed innocent people.

There are an awful lot of people, however, who really refuse to believe that, unfortunately.