Making a Murderer

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We've gone on holiday by mistake
ADMIN EDIT: posts moved from another thread (hence the abrupt nature of this one).

OMG me too last night, finished episode 8 at 3am and the last 2 this morning. Absolutely gobsmacked by it all.

Beware small time Police forces and Prosecutors in the USA folks.

Recommend EVERYONE watch this.
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OMG me too last night, finished episode 8 at 3am and the last 2 this morning. Absolutely gobsmacked by it all.

Beware small time Police forces and Prosecutors in the USA folks.

Recommend EVERYONE watch this.
After you have finished look up all of the information left out of the series, not surprisingly it is heavily one sided. I think Avery did it, still an amazing series though.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
After you have finished look up all of the information left out of the series, not surprisingly it is heavily one sided. I think Avery did it, still an amazing series though.
Like what exactly?



Like what exactly?
This is a letter from Ken Kratz with evidence left out of the documentary, there is more than this even:

Examples for you to consider:

WARNING: "Making A Murderer" spoilers below
1. Avery’s past incident with a cat was not “goofing around”. He soaked his cat in gasoline or oil, and put it on a fire to watch it suffer.

2. Avery targeted Teresa. On Oct 31 (8:12 am) he called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send “that same girl who was here last time.” On Oct 10, Teresa had been to the Avery property when Steve answered the door just wearing a towel. She said she would not go back because she was scared of him (obviously). Avery used a fake name and fake # (his sister’s) giving those to the AutoTrader receptionist, to trick Teresa into coming.

3. Teresa’s phone, camera and PDA were found 20 ft from Avery’s door, burned in his barrel. Why did the documentary not tell the viewers the contents of her purse were in his burn barrel, just north of the front door of his trailer?

4. While in prison, Avery told another inmate of his intent to build a “torture chamber” so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released. He even drew a diagram. Another inmate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to “burn it”…heat destroys DNA.

5. The victim’s bones in the firepit were “intertwined” with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn, as described by Dassey. That WAS where her bones were burned! Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere (never identified as Teresa’s) were from this murder was NEVER established.

6. Also found in the fire pit was Teresa’s tooth (ID’d through dental records), a rivet from the “Daisy Fuentes” jeans she was wearing that day, and the tools used by Avery to chop up her bones during the fire.

7. Phone records show 3 calls from Avery to Teresa’s cell phone on Oct 31. One at 2:24, and one at 2:35–both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn’t know it him…both placed before she arrives. Then one last call at 4:35 pm, without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up (his original defense), so tries to establish the alibi call after she’s already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn’t need the *67 feature for that last call.

8. Avery’s DNA (not blood) was on the victim’s hood latch (under her hood in her hidden SUV). The SUV was at the crime lab since 11/5…how did his DNA get under the hood if Avery never touched her car? Do the cops have a vial of Avery’s sweat to “plant” under the hood?

9. Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery’s rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since 11/6…if the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from HIS gun? This rifle, hanging over Aver’s bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa’s DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired BEFORE 11/5—did the cops borrow his gun, fire a bullet, recover the bullet before planting the SUV, then hang on to the bullet for 4 months in case they need to plant it 4 months later???

There is more of course. But I’m not a DA anymore. I have no duty to show what nonsense the “planting” defense is, or why the documentary makers didn’t provide these uncontested facts to the audience. You see, these facts are inconsistent with the claim that these men were framed—you don’t want to muddy up a perfectly good conspiracy movie with what actually happened, and certainly not provide the audience with the EVIDENCE the jury considered to reject that claim.

Finally, I engaged in deplorable behavior, sending suggestive text messages to a crime victim in Oct 2009. I reported myself to the OLR. My law license was thereafter suspended for 4 months. I have withstood a boat-load of other consequences as a result of that behavior, including loss of my prosecution career. However, I’ve enjoyed sobriety from prescription drug use for over 5 years now, and refuse to be defined by that dark time of my life. All of this occurred years after the Avery case was concluded…I’m unclear why the defense-created documentary chose to include this unpleasantness in this movie, especially if the filmmakers had no agenda to cast me as a villain. I am not a victim in that whole texting scandal—then again, it’s exceedingly unfair to use that to characterize me as morally unfit.

To identify Lt. Lenk, Sgt. Colburn and myself as being “responsible” for the framing and knowing false murder conviction of Steven Avery is irresponsible, and inconsistent with a consideration of all the evidence presented. Netflix should either provide an opportunity for rebuttal, or alert the viewers that this series was produced by and FOR the defense of Steven Avery, and contains only the opinion and theory of the defense team.

Thanks for your consideration.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
This is a letter from Ken Kratz with evidence left out of the documentary, there is more than this even:

Examples for you to consider:

WARNING: "." spoilers below
1. Avery’s past incident with a cat was not “goofing around”. He soaked his cat in gasoline or oil, and put it on a fire to watch it suffer.

2. Avery targeted Teresa. On Oct 31 (8:12 am) he called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send “that same girl who was here last time.” On Oct 10, Teresa had been to the Avery property when Steve answered the door just wearing a towel. She said she would not go back because she was scared of him (obviously). Avery used a fake name and fake # (his sister’s) giving those to the AutoTrader receptionist, to trick Teresa into coming.

3. Teresa’s phone, camera and PDA were found 20 ft from Avery’s door, burned in his barrel. Why did the documentary not tell the viewers the contents of her purse were in his burn barrel, just north of the front door of his trailer?

4. While in prison, Avery told another inmate of his intent to build a “torture chamber” so he could rape, torture and kill young women when he was released. He even drew a diagram. Another inmate was told by Avery that the way to get rid of a body is to “burn it”…heat destroys DNA.

5. The victim’s bones in the firepit were “intertwined” with the steel belts, left over from the car tires Avery threw on the fire to burn, as described by Dassey. That WAS where her bones were burned! Suggesting that some human bones found elsewhere (never identified as Teresa’s) were from this murder was NEVER established.

6. Also found in the fire pit was Teresa’s tooth (ID’d through dental records), a rivet from the “Daisy Fuentes” jeans she was wearing that day, and the tools used by Avery to chop up her bones during the fire.

7. Phone records show 3 calls from Avery to Teresa’s cell phone on Oct 31. One at 2:24, and one at 2:35–both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn’t know it him…both placed before she arrives. Then one last call at 4:35 pm, without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up (his original defense), so tries to establish the alibi call after she’s already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn’t need the *67 feature for that last call.

8. Avery’s DNA (not blood) was on the victim’s hood latch (under her hood in her hidden SUV). The SUV was at the crime lab since 11/5…how did his DNA get under the hood if Avery never touched her car? Do the cops have a vial of Avery’s sweat to “plant” under the hood?

9. Ballistics said the bullet found in the garage was fired by Avery’s rifle, which was in a police evidence locker since 11/6…if the cops planted the bullet, how did they get one fired from HIS gun? This rifle, hanging over Aver’s bed, is the source of the bullet found in the garage, with Teresa’s DNA on it. The bullet had to be fired BEFORE 11/5—did the cops borrow his gun, fire a bullet, recover the bullet before planting the SUV, then hang on to the bullet for 4 months in case they need to plant it 4 months later???

There is more of course. But I’m not a DA anymore. I have no duty to show what nonsense the “planting” defense is, or why the documentary makers didn’t provide these uncontested facts to the audience. You see, these facts are inconsistent with the claim that these men were framed—you don’t want to muddy up a perfectly good conspiracy movie with what actually happened, and certainly not provide the audience with the EVIDENCE the jury considered to reject that claim.

Finally, I engaged in deplorable behavior, sending suggestive text messages to a crime victim in Oct 2009. I reported myself to the OLR. My law license was thereafter suspended for 4 months. I have withstood a boat-load of other consequences as a result of that behavior, including loss of my prosecution career. However, I’ve enjoyed sobriety from prescription drug use for over 5 years now, and refuse to be defined by that dark time of my life. All of this occurred years after the Avery case was concluded…I’m unclear why the defense-created documentary chose to include this unpleasantness in this movie, especially if the filmmakers had no agenda to cast me as a villain. I am not a victim in that whole texting scandal—then again, it’s exceedingly unfair to use that to characterize me as morally unfit.

To identify Lt. Lenk, Sgt. Colburn and myself as being “responsible” for the framing and knowing false murder conviction of Steven Avery is irresponsible, and inconsistent with a consideration of all the evidence presented. Netflix should either provide an opportunity for rebuttal, or alert the viewers that this series was produced by and FOR the defense of Steven Avery, and contains only the opinion and theory of the defense team.

Thanks for your consideration.
WARNING: "." spoilers below
1. Clearly this is bad but it doesn't say that someone is going to rape and murder someone years later. Lets agree that Avery is somewhat a small town hick scumbag, again doesn't make him a murderer though.

2. If she had been there before and was scared to go back why did she go? Yes the false name but she must have known she was at the Avery yard where she met this scary man.

3. If other stuff had clearly been planted is it that much of a stretch that these things were planted too?

4. Wouldn't trust this sort of jailhouse confession, I've heard of this shady practise being used by corrupt small town DA before. "Jailhouse snitch" will say anything to get a better deal. Did Avery admit having said this?

5. If there were tyres used in Avery's fire isn't it possible that tyres were used in another fire, had Teresa indeed been burned elsewhere, as Avery's lawyers claim.

6. See point 3.

7. My understanding were that the first 2 calls were because Teresa was late. Not sure what to make of the third call, that could easily have been to do with their dealings that day, selling the Van or whatever. Hiding your caller ID isn't suspicious, people do it every day.

8. His DNA but not his fingertprints, again if people are conspiring to plant evidence against him would it be so hard to plant DNA on the car after 6 months sitting in the Police impound.

9. I don't think it's mentioned in the documentary that the bullet was fired from Avery's rifle, if that's true it presents a strong piece of evidence against Avery. BUT wasn't this "magic bullet" found on a 4th search of the Avery garage months after the crime.

Seems evidence keeps popping up later to help the DA case.

Also this letter is written by Kranz who is a corrupt scumbag (he tried to coerce domestic violence victims into having sex with him, and admitted a problem with drug use).



This is to discuss the show since we were going off topic in the Countdown thread. Could one of the mods please move me and Gandalfs posts from the Countdown thread here. Thanks



Gandalf thanks for your post in the Countdown thread. Rather than go through it point by point all i'll say is evidence does not keep popping up to help the DA's case, all of this evidence was purposefully left out of the Documentary. If all of this evidence was fabricated or easily countered why leave it out? Surely they must have known this would all be brought up, why not deal with all of it in the documentary? What ever way you look at it, it seems this was all left out to make it seem like Avery was innocent since most people wouldn't look any further than this doc.



I don't know if I am happy I read all that ot not. It will make me watch the doc different though. My BS meter is kind of high for these types of docs now anyway. It seems like there is more intent to shock and entertain than inform.
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I don't know if I am happy I read all that ot not. It will make me watch the doc different though. My BS meter is kind of high for these types of docs now anyway. It seems like there is more intent to shock and entertain than inform.
Honestly i think i was a bit hasty saying i think he did it earlier, i'm certainly not 100% convinced of his guilt and i do think the case wasn't handled well at all. But i hate people trying to pull the wool over my eyes, and i know for a fact (well not a fact but you know what i mean ) that a lot of these people petitioning the White House, and change.org haven't looked any further than the documentary.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
Gandalf thanks for your post in the Countdown thread. Rather than go through it point by point all i'll say is evidence does not keep popping up to help the DA's case, all of this evidence was purposefully left out of the Documentary. If all of this evidence was fabricated or easily countered why leave it out? Surely they must have known this would all be brought up, why not deal with all of it in the documentary? What ever way you look at it, it seems this was all left out to make it seem like Avery was innocent since most people wouldn't look any further than this doc.
By "popping up" I meant, the bullet gets found on 4th search months later, the key gets found on 3rd search of small bedroom, the DNA is found on the car hood much later, interestingly with no fingerprints though.

It would be interesting to watch a counter documentary though, perhaps made by the state from their point of view, showcasing their strongest arguments.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
The biggest red herrings about the case for me;

WARNING: "." spoilers below
-Motive, this wasn't discussed much. What was Steve Avery's motive? He has a nice cash settlement coming, girlfriend, new lease of life, so he takes a fancy to this young autotrader woman, rapes and murder's her. Did he just feel like it? Are the prosecution just saying he is evil that's why.
-Incredible timing for this murder. INCREDIBLE. Just weeks after several big guns of the county police face unpleasant depositions, and weeks before a pending settlement for potentially $36 million.
-The Police don't even ask for alibi's for Teresa's nearest and dearest. Any detective worth his salt will know that something like 90% of the time the murderer is a boyfriend/family/roommate/ex-boyfreind . Yet the Police don't even ask ANY of these people where they were. MASSIVE RED FLAG. It's like they knew they were going after Avery so why bother even asking anyone else.
-The Police hold a press conference saying that the County who dealt with Avery's previous case are not going to be involved, yet THEY ARE!! and they return later, and it's Lt Lenk who finds the key. Most obvious case ever of planting evidence/
-The disgraceful coerced confession of a 16 year old learning disabled kid with no mother or lawyer present. How is this legal. I would spit in the faces of those cops, Fassbender and Wiegert. Hope they eventually face consequences for this.



Here is a link to Brendan Dasseys trial transcripts if anyone is interested - http://herald-review.com/trial-of-br...1e5516fd6.html

Steven Averys haven't been released yet but there is a crowdfunding campaign going on right now and it looks like they will be soon.



Yes, the lists of some of the Prosecution evidence not included in the series made the rounds in the last couple weeks. And HERE is a sampling of some things (with links to sources) from the Defense case that likewise did not make the cut to air but were introduced at trial.

If after watching that series beginning to end, even if for sake of argument you take the additional Prosecution points as Gospel (which is a big leap to do so), I think there is still a mountain of contradictory reasonable doubt and clear instances of bias from the local Sheriff's department and the Prosecutors. My conclusion was that even if he did this horrible crime, they absolutely did not prove it to the point that an impartial jury could or should have reasonably convicted him.

The most gigantic point for me in terms of the theory of the crime, subrtacting for a moment the entire spectre of law enforcement mishandling things, is the complete lack of DNA or blood evidence in the bedroom/trailer where this rape and throat slitting were supposed to take place, and that not a drop of blood was found in that very dirty and cluttered garage. The documentary shows you very well how these people live. That Steven is supposedly dumb enough to leave pieces of cellphone and bone mere feet from the house and her vehicle near the crusher without actually crushing it but somehow managed to meticulously clean every single speck of evidence down to the DNA level from the supposed crime scenes just plain doesn't pass the smell test.

There are dozens of other details that just don't make sense, including the timeline established by the female passing motorist during her regular routine with nothing to gain or lose from her testimony that seems 100% more reliable than the timeline the Prosecution hangs their case on. The poor treatment of Brandon is just ridiculous. That second appointed attorney had zero regard for his client, he thought he was guilty and said so publicly (before even meeting him, much less looking at the case), clearly aided the Prosecution beyond anything that would have been reasonable in establishing a plea bargain, and all of that should have been grounds for another trial for him.

That the Prosecutor closes with 'Hey, even if the cops did plant evidence, what's the difference because this guy is a dirty monster' is something that if you saw it in an episode of "Law & Order" you would dismiss as bad writing and implausible. Yet that jury convicted him? Ugh.
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"Film is a disease. When it infects your bloodstream it takes over as the number one hormone. It bosses the enzymes, directs the pineal gland, plays Iago to your psyche. As with heroin, the antidote to Film is more Film." - Frank Capra



We've gone on holiday by mistake
+1

There's a reckoning coming for these people. Already Stevens case is being taken up by top lawyers, and a fund is being raised to pay legal costs.

Power of Netflix!

Also the jury starts at 7 not guilty, 3 guilty and 2 undecided. Apparently 2 of the jurors being related to members of the county sheriff....WHAT!!! At least 1 juror, not including the dismissed juror has been in contact with the documentary makers saying they felt intimidated into a guilty verdict. Also a possible "compromise" being reached whereby the murder charge was guilty but the 2nd charge not guilty....again WHAT???!!

It's gonna be an interesting few months. Think these small town corrupt bastards thought they could get away with it, never for once imagining that this documentary would cause a storm like this.



Finished this last night.

I had a couple of general thoughts while watching. The obvious thought was "wow, whatever happened, it seems very likely people did some sketchy things to ensure a conviction." The other was "that first thought seems so obvious that there's no way they're not leaving a lot of big stuff out." So I expected there'd be some kind of rebuttal to be found on the Internet once I finished. But even expecting that rebuttal, I'm kind of shocked by what was left out. That's some pretty damning stuff, and I think excluding it goes a bit beyond the level of agenda-serving you expect any documentary to have.

That said, I agree with Holden that it's really, really hard to believe that they wouldn't find any blood in a place where someone was allegedly slit over the threat and then shot in the head. And it's really hard to believe that such a mess could be cleaned up while other damning things sat just out of view for weeks on end. So I agree that he probably should have been acquitted.

But I also think he's more likely than not to have done it. I think Strang (one of Avery's lawyers) said it best: the cops really believe he did it. It's too much of a stretch to think they'd do those things just because they resented the guy. But it's not a stretch to think they'd do those things if they thought they were keeping a dangerous man off the streets. And I don't buy they would think this without good reason, either. Which leads me to this conclusion:

The cops probably know things about this case that satisfy common sense, but for one reason or another aren't admissible in court.

So I end up with the same kind of conclusion I had after season one of Serial: if forced to choose, I'd say the convicted party is guilty, but that their guilt wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And the more I see things like this the more I begin to suspect that actually using that standard consistently would end up leaving a lot of dangerous people on the streets. That's not to say it's a bad standard, but I don't think we've really had to grapple with what it means for awhile now.

My feelings are a bit different about Brendan Dassey. That confession seemed highly coerced, though I sympathize with the jurors on that one, because I have to imagine at least one of them thought "geez, if someone can confess and then say 'I lied about doing it and I don't know why,' where does it end?"

Anyway, awful stuff. Like Strang, you have to hope Avery did do it.



One more note: it's pretty awful that people watch this and then immediately start petitions demanding Avery be pardoned. C'mon, people. The documentary can and should be a starting point for further investigation into whether or not something untoward happened, but don't be spoon fed the conclusion. There's a "mob justice" quality to a bunch of people watching a carefully orchestrated production and then rushing to demand a pardon, most of them (presumably) not looking into the case much further.

Near the end, Strang talks about the "lack of humility" in the system. I believe he's right about that. Unfortunately, that lack of humility is such a universal human problem that it extends to the people who watch the documentary, too.



if forced to choose, I'd say the convicted party is guilty, but that their guilt wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt
That is pretty much how i feel about it.



We've gone on holiday by mistake
Put me in the hardcore, Avery is totally innocent camp.

He seemed totally believable every time he spoke, whether in Police interview or in the court at the sentencing, or anytime on the phone, I never got any trace of malice or deceit. He has never confessed. He doesn't seem like a guilty man hiding a terrible secret. Of course I concede that it is possible Avery is guilty. I 100% don't believe Brendan had any incolvement whatsoever.

The possibilities as far as I can see.

-Teresa was murdered by Avery.
-Teresa was murdered by someone else and Police seized the opportunity to pin it on Avery, a deal was possibly struck with the murderer.The timing of this would be unbelievably lucky for Police.
-Teresa was killed by the Police( one or 2 individuals) who must've known she was visiting Avery.
-Teresa was killed by someone else who intentionally framed Avery, knowing the Police/DA would LOVE to see him go down.

If I had to bet my life on one of those options I really don't know which I would pick.