Communism: Can it work?

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PN, your rebuttal relies on too much what-ifing and more of the same naive idealism. I was only pointing out how existence actually is. Sure, we can imagine, yet your position still isn't strengthened by imagination. Just because we can imagine everybody acting like hippy Jesus tomorrow, that doesn't make it truly possible. Anything isn't possible. Reality is not beholden to imagination and some ideas are destined to remain imaginary. We live in a universe that is following its course of winding down toward oblivion, and humanity can't ultimately be greater than that. We're products of an environment who have painfully learned to modestly re-shape it for our own survival, but we're not going to be able to re-shape the entire universe that much. Even if we manage to forge an ideal social system for ourselves, it will be around only as long as we are, for as long as we all pretend together that way, but it would have no actual reality beyond us and couldn't last. That is just the reality.
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You're just making assertions. Assertions that are not unfounded if they are modest, but you are not being modest. Your grand, cosmic assertion is ultimately about the closure of existence around largely things that you, personally, have experienced. My assertion is grounded in the only thing we've come to know about existence: that existence is fuzzy, and holds as many secrets as you are willing to find in that haze. You know just how existence 'actually is' and furthermore, that there is nothing more than what it is that you know. You rely on the results of a young, under-powered, and highly local science to predict our fate billions of years from now. This is what is imaginary -- of images. I look to what we have not already seen, already experienced, already discovered. The fact that being has been unfolded so many times in the last couple hundred years even should lead us to /go further/, not arrogantly assume that we have done practically everything that could have been done. Where is the 'strength' of your argument? That what-is is enclosed around what we have already known? What is your justification for thinking this closure?

Finally, the point is not to forge an 'ideal' social system. The point is to maintain the idea of a better social system, to always keep moving towards that which resolves the hopelessness in the present system -- the very thing that leads to your pessimism about all of being.



We were only able to make those advances because of our efforts to figure out how our physical existence actually works. We didn't bend the rules of our universe. We exploited them.

I'm sorry if you took anything personally but I'm only re-asserting what is concretely evident, not wooing with vague ideation, and anything more is essentially mental masturbation.



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1) Yes, we are active, rational agents and can override our baser instincts. Absolutely. But saying we can do something is different than counting on it, and counting on it across the vast majority of the population, which is what's necessary to make this sort of thing work. Being capable of doing a thing is not the same thing as being capable of doing it consistently. When you say we're capable of being good to one another, that's kind of like saying we're capable of running a 3:45 mile. We have that within us, too, but not everyone can do it and even fewer can do it consistently.
The fact that my reply was in fact a reply and not a thesis is where you're confused. Deadite seems to think that it is something like a property of being that prohibits the possibility of a better society. He used facts about our animal existence to back this up. However, the fact that we are clearly something more than animals denies this. The possibility is clearly there, and so you cannot use the over-determination of our animal natures to close it out.

Also, I'm not sure how I'm 'counting' on anything. Clearly, the communist position is an inventive one, where a new society is to be constructed in order to realize that particular possibility I'm speaking of.

First, we must know that we are in fact capable of running that time. Then, we must train. Deadite is pretty much just pointing out to a fat person that, because he is currently fat, it is impossible for him to think that he'll ever get into shape. What I pointed out was that any fat person can at any moment decide to shape up. This is the power of the subject. I don't count on fat people doing this, but I know that it's possible. Of course communism will take work. No one ever denied this.

2) "Human nature will be modified." While I agree with the idea that systems can have a huge effect on how we behave (assuming that's what you mean), I think history shows us over and over that certain basic human impulses will always strenuously resist control. We can curb and suppress temporarily, or redirect, but we can't never merely modify people. The only two ways I think you can say this are either a) by suggesting we'll be ready for this after many, many generations are basically bred for things other than base survival, so that communism will be possible in some far distant future once humanity has evolved into something very different, or b) that it'll be made possible through pacifying the population with genetic modification. Which is absolutely horrific.
I put human nature in quotes, because there is no real human nature apart from the world they are in. Certainly not for a human who lives within a society not an ecosystem. There is no human nature is what I'm saying. There is total autonomy of what we call human apart from what is the human animal. Human nature is simply an internalization of what we call humanity. The fact that previous historical situations internalized the same sorts of things as capitalism says nothing about future historical situations, because they are just that... historical situations. history shows us societies not biologies.

People are ALWAYS 'modified.' They are NOTHING BUT the mediation between others. There is absolutely no notion of the self without the community. This is what i mean. Neither of your choices. To finally bring this fact out is yet another characteristic of communism insofar as it focuses on the community and not the individual.

3) Regarding scarcity. Technically, you are correct: scarcity always exists in the sense of what we desire in comfort. If we desire much less, it's possible that we will have much less scarcity. But that goes back to the idea of modifying human nature. It's also a tough sell, because it's basically talking about trading a huge amount of basic human striving and excellence for this communist ideal. Even if you find this to be worthwhile trade off, it is a trade off.
There is no reason why there should be a trade off at all. It is only a trade off in capitalism where donating movie money to africa would collapse the movie industry and make it impossible for us to watch movies whilst not doing much for africa in the long run. What communism must be if it is to be truly a resolution of capitalism is not at all a redistribution of already existing wealth as it is in the system but a reconstruction of how 'wealth' is constituted in the first place.

i'm not saying that human nature has to be curbed. I'm saying there is no human nature, but what you call human nature is simply a result of the social relations in which we find ourselves, and that this will unavoidably be changed by a change in social relations.

again, it is a direct response to deadite. a system following capitalism will be precisely an attempt to nullify the social relations of predation and competition within 'human nature' which does not exist and is simply a reflection of society in the first place.

Also, even then, there will be scarcity. Maybe a lot less, but there will always be some. Things will always go wrong, even if we're much better to each other and much more modest in our expectations of comfort and wealth.
things 'going wrong' has nothing to do with anything. things 'go wrong' in any system and so bears not at all on any particular system. furthermore, you cannot say that capitalism deals with things going wrong better than any other system due to its fluidity. there are simply other ways in which we can concieve of 'going wrong' that captialism alone runs into that compensates for this.

people steal and so forth. this is going wrong in capitalism. this is not something that would happen in communism, you understand. so that entire 'wrong' is eliminated. surely, there will be other problems perhaps analogous to 'stealing' but people will not steal per se. this is not a problem in communism. it is a problem in capitalism that has no translation into communism.

every system has its 'random' problems like earthquakes and so forth. every system also has its structural problems. communism is an attempt to resolve the structural problems of capitalism. geoengineering would an attempt to resolve the problems of earthquakes.



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We were only able to make those advances because of our efforts to figure out how our physical existence actually works. We didn't bend the rules of our universe. We exploited them.
This is a claim about what science is. That 'our universe' is the result of certain laws, and that, by looking closely, we saw them.

What really occurs though is something much more like a conversation than a seeing. We spoke to the universe, poked and prodded it through experiments, and it spoke back through results, which we then proceeded to translate into the language of universal laws. But you forget it only answered the questions we asked it. Again, there is no closure here. We have not asked the question 'are we there yet?' How would this question even be asked? I doubt it can. But unless we can get an answer to that question, there is no reason to think that there are 'rules of our universe' at all.

You cannot ask the universe 'can I impose these laws onto all of you?' You can only ask local bits of the universe certain local questions and get answers, and then, in your confidence, extend those laws to the whole thing -- furthermore, forbidding the existence of any other laws.



You're confusing your perception with objective reality, it seems. Calling science a "conversation" with the universe may sound appealing, but the actual fact is there is no meaningful dialectical exchange. The physical universe is what it is, and our investigations get results precisely because it is an objective thing that works certain ways and not others. Your attempt to re-frame that as a two-way relationship is embarrassing. I'm afraid you're on the verge of telling us The Secret of Quantum Attraction and how humans create reality...



i'm not saying that human nature has to be curbed. I'm saying there is no human nature, but what you call human nature is simply a result of the social relations in which we find ourselves, and that this will unavoidably be changed by a change in social relations.
This is incorrect, I think. There is such a thing as human nature. That nature is cooperative selfishness. Humans are just as much instinct-driven social animals as they ever were. We just have a more sophisticated repertoire now.



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No country has ever practiced Communism or Capitalism. Communism has to exist in all the world or nothing. The USSR were state capitalists.. The U.S. has a socialized fire department, army, etc etc... The key is what a citizen gets for their taxes, the basic necessities, how safe you are.

And really, I don't think one system can fit all. People can't agree on anything, and more and more countries are consolidating, the EU, or currencies, military alliances, etc..

I think the best way to go is to get rid of the labels, and do what's best for the times. I think the basic necessities should be taken care of taxes - if you want cigarettes or prostitutes, you should work for it.



I'm not old, you're just 12.
Nope! Three years later and Communism still sucks pretty damn hard. I don't know about you, but I want rewards for my hard work, not receive the same pay as somebody who sits on their ass and does less. A bit of socialism here and there is alright, like our taxes go to pay for the T or the Army and the like (and I'm all in for socialized medicine, don't even get me started), but man, Communism removes all incentives to succeed or strive to better yourself. Yeah, Capitalism can be a cruel, survival of the richest sort of way of life, but we also don't have true Capitalism here in the U.S.. If we did, Wal Mart would run our schools. :P
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Capitalism or Communism has never happened, so we can't make judgements.
I responded to this a few years back:

The idea that "real" Communism could work, and that the massive failures we've seen just weren't "real" Communism, is not a new one. But there are some pretty clear problems with it, I think:

1) It'd be easy to defend any terrible idea by saying that, when it fails, it just wasn't done quite right. This is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

...

3) Even if you ignore both of these things, we're still left with a political system that, if it's not done "correctly," produces millions of deaths, starvation, and horrible human rights violations. And there's really no reason to have faith in people to do something perfectly, so that seems like too much of a risk to take. The best systems take human fallibility into account so that they don't have to be done just right to function, or at least don't result in untold suffering when they don't.
I'll add another point: requiring that any system be completely pure in implementation to be judged is to eliminate the utility of the question. It makes the question purely academic/hypothetical, rather than anything about reality, since a completely pure system is never possible.



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Communism's not supported by evolutionary biology so I don't think it can ever work in our current species. Too much of the communist ideal is based on the myth that all human behavior is the result of social conditioning (ex. capitalist indoctrination)- even though it's ingrained into our genetis and been in development for millions of years.

I'm talking about real communism of course - because to the hardcore GOPers in the US anything an inch to the left of Marie Antoinette is "communist" - lol



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I responded to this a few years back:


I'll add another point: requiring that any system be completely pure in implementation to be judged is to eliminate the utility of the question. It makes the question purely academic/hypothetical, rather than anything about reality, since a completely pure system is never possible.
I agree that a completely pure system is not only not possible, but the definition itself can be misinterpreted. There was also no internet in the 1850's, which leads me to an "I Don't Know" answer. I don't want to speak for Marx, but I'll say that cooperation has to be established between every nation, so it's impossible in my opinion to have one system. Also, one country has certain resources that others don't, I could go on and on...

It's the same with Capitalism. Sweden technically has a market economy, but a great social welfare system - this is not even close to capitalism, let alone "pure capitalism" based on "Wealth of Nations" - but I think they have the best system. Not perfect, but the results are there. I'd say most of Western Europe is doing pretty well, and that the terms are not as important as the policy.



Communism is based on the ideology of violence , and in any system based on violence soon the goons take over . All the social and economic theories go into the dustbin as power goes into the hands of those who can use violence .



aschdoc, You mean 20th century communism (i.e. real socialism) I guess, the system where the government takes direct control of all large scale industrial, communication and transportation activities and tries to micromanage everything from a central planning bureau, resulting is disastrous inefficiencies.

The idealized communism by Marx would be a society such that:

1 - Everybody is happy and talented and works only when he/she feels like working.
2 - There is no property, everybody consumes what they want to consume and in any quantities desired.
3 - There is not government, no war and no problems in the world.

This is called Heaven in other religions (Marxism is in a sense a religion, as characterized by Schumpeter). "Can it work?" What do you think?



The idealized communism by Marx would be a society such that:

1 - Everybody is happy and talented and works only when he/she feels like working.
2 - There is no property, everybody consumes what they want to consume and in any quantities desired.
3 - There is not government, no war and no problems in the world.

This is called Heaven in other religions (Marxism is in a sense a religion, as characterized by Schumpeter). "Can it work?" What do you think?
yes , but marx also envisages the workers and peasants taking over and replacing the existing elites in the positions of power . and how does this change take about ?? by violence of course....for when marx elucidated his theories very few nations had true democracy for communists to be allowed to be elected to power in democratic elections .

but once those who led the workers and peasants taste power , are they interested in holding elections and allowing other people to take over if they lose elections ?? naah....

remember those who led the workers and peasants in revolution have come to power with some bloodshed , and have made many physical sacrifices to come to power . so they are hardly going to relinquish their hard won power so easily in elections . so the earlier elites are replaced by new elites who are probably worse than the earlier elites due to their habit of using violence .