My Introduction

Tools    





chicagofrog's Avatar
history *is* moralizing
[quote=adidasss]i knew i was gonna get negative responses for that...my bad, wrong choice of words....( by geeks and elitists i meant nothing bad, it's only americans that imediatly take offense to that term...i meant knowledgable people)
[quote]

you do NOT have to apologize because some (/too many ) people in the US (but Germany is another typical example of country infected by the same plague) are considering words as definite entities that has "one meaning and it's all" - even outta context. they should all study linguistics (and i don't mean Chomsky *****), and you should be ready to sacrifice some points/friends/whatever to teach them that (especially linguistic) taboos are not leading anywhere. only in the head of someone that didn't read much of that beautiful word, ELITIST, in beautiful litterature, would find it an ugly word. me, i'm not afraid of calling myself an elitist. those who don't like it can go f-word themselves.
be strong, dear Adidasssssssssssssssss! and don't be politically correct, the best ones on earth are gonna love you for it!
__________________
We're a generation of men raised by women. I'm wondering if another woman is really the answer we need.



Don't listen to that wimpy French guy behind the curtain.

Oh...in America, wimpy = studly, so it's ok that I call him that.



I got for good luck my black tooth.
well, stormsiren really started stirred up quite the discussion about this forum and also what is/is not offensive. She left some legacy even if she doesn't come back by making us think about the way things are around here. Lucky for us most of those thoughts were positive.
__________________
"Like all dreamers, Steven mistook disenchantment for truth."



Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
[quote=chicagofrog][quote=adidasss]i knew i was gonna get negative responses for that...my bad, wrong choice of words....( by geeks and elitists i meant nothing bad, it's only americans that imediatly take offense to that term...i meant knowledgable people)

you do NOT have to apologize because some (/too many ) people in the US (but Germany is another typical example of country infected by the same plague) are considering words as definite entities that has "one meaning and it's all" - even outta context. they should all study linguistics (and i don't mean Chomsky *****), and you should be ready to sacrifice some points/friends/whatever to teach them that (especially linguistic) taboos are not leading anywhere. only in the head of someone that didn't read much of that beautiful word, ELITIST, in beautiful litterature, would find it an ugly word. me, i'm not afraid of calling myself an elitist. those who don't like it can go f-word themselves.
be strong, dear Adidasssssssssssssssss! and don't be politically correct, the best ones on earth are gonna love you for it!
You are a bigot.

Of all the people here, you should know that you use words to communicate ideas. adidasss used a word that HE KNEW was going to be offensive. That isn't "out of context".
__________________
Review: Cabin in the Woods 8/10



Originally Posted by chicagofrog
you do NOT have to apologize because some (/too many ) people in the US (but Germany is another typical example of country infected by the same plague) are considering words as definite entities that has "one meaning and it's all" - even outta context. they should all study linguistics (and i don't mean Chomsky *****), and you should be ready to sacrifice some points/friends/whatever to teach them that (especially linguistic) taboos are not leading anywhere. only in the head of someone that didn't read much of that beautiful word, ELITIST, in beautiful litterature, would find it an ugly word. me, i'm not afraid of calling myself an elitist. those who don't like it can go f-word themselves.
be strong, dear Adidasssssssssssssssss! and don't be politically correct, the best ones on earth are gonna love you for it!
Yeah, us silly Americans with our "definitions" of "words."

I don't see how "elitist" is any more beautiful than any other word. It has a literal meaning, but like most words it carries connotations with it that arise from common usage. The word "elitist" does not generally refer to people who are merely superior, but those who think they are and are not, or else are but produce an unreasonable amount of pride and condescension for it. And, to put it bluntly, I think you qualify.

There is not a "taboo" on the word; it is simply a harsh, forceful word that implies harsh, forceful things. It is entirely necessary that some words be harsh (and be reacted to in kind), and it is only sensible that those words be used sparingly enough that you do not rob them of their force. You don't bold every word, for example, because if you did none of them would stand out, which is the entire reason for using a bold font in the first place.

Similarly, the idea that every word should be dull and emotionless and contain no stigma is silly and awkward. It also contradicts your earlier complaint about people taking words too literally. Either people should treat words more abstractly, or they shouldn't attach connotations to words; which is it?



Sir Sean Connery's love-child
I think Storm Siren was a plant from the movie haters forum.
It's Sabotage, plain and simple.
I think if your that easily offended, then basic human interaction must be hard. There are a lot of people out there who disagree with me frequently, or have different opinions, but you've got to roll with the punches!!!
Life would be really boring if we all got along.
I would rather have lively debate anyday, and as long as it doesn't end up in a personal attack, slagging match, or threat of violence, I'm all for it.
__________________
Hey Pepe, would you say I have a plethora of presents?


Toga, toga, toga......


Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbour?



chicagofrog's Avatar
history *is* moralizing
Originally Posted by Yoda
I don't see how "elitist" is any more beautiful than any other word.
did i say "more beautiful"? that's exactly my point, it's just like any of other words.
if A says to B to "****** off" that's offensive. if A speaks to himself cuz something slipped from his hand and says "******", i don't see the offence in the word. some people though would say "******" is an offensive word, full stop. not mentioning what contxt it becomes offensive in.
i don't now that i have to justify an opinion about such obvious a thing, especially since adidass said himself he was sorry if he hurt the feelings of anyone.
if you read a book about, let's say, an ancient Japanese traditional martial art school that has a very elitist selection or a very elitist final test to get the black belt, i don't see any offence in the word itself. it just means it'll be hard to get the black belt, maybe even too hard and the sensei/teacher should be "more cool", but why would you see so much hate and all kinda negative feelings behind what is just a word?

The word "elitist" does not generally refer to people who are merely superior, but those who think they are and are not, or else are but produce an unreasonable amount of pride and condescension for it. And, to put it bluntly, I think you qualify.
like i said, if you want to directly insult me for a post about an opinion i wrote about without having attacked anyone in particular, come on and drop the bomb onto me like your president has a cute penchant to do when people are not with him, they're against him.
elitist to me doesn't mean you think you are better, it means you want a system/school/government/anything that want people to want to improve. in the example given above, it would be those martial artists that are not the best yet (and don't think the are either) but are trying their best to become it, with the exclusion of those who are lazy and are not trying to improve. i try to improve my skills in languages, music, martial arts, etc... whatever i dedicate myself to. if my wanting to improve myself and the reality check that i'll do better WITH people who have the same goal appears to you as a synonym for considering oneself superior to others, then yes, words don't mean anything anymore.
plus there's a huge step between knowing you're better at something than someone and believing you're superior to that person in everything (this last way of thinking being completely unrealistic and stupid).

the svastika is a symbol for the nazis in Germany like it is for buddhism in India and for paganism in the baltic countries and Euskadi. words are the same, you may offend some people with them, while they mean an entirely different thing elsewhere. but since people move nowadays a lil bit more often (and faster) than 300 years ago, it wouldn't be totally useless in my humble opinion to open the mind of people teaching them that symbols, pictures, words, can mean different things, can be offensive or not depending on the place, the people they come from/are used by, the context...

gosh, poor directors that make a movie that's considered offensive. at least they get some money for it at the end, and publicity.



Randomly visiting for now
Originally Posted by Darth Stujitzu
I think Storm Siren was a plant from the movie haters forum.
It's Sabotage, plain and simple.
I think if your that easily offended, then basic human interaction must be hard. There are a lot of people out there who disagree with me frequently, or have different opinions, but you've got to roll with the punches!!!
Life would be really boring if we all got along.
I would rather have lively debate anyday, and as long as it doesn't end up in a personal attack, slagging match, or threat of violence, I'm all for it.
yeah well not everyone would 'rather have lively debate anyday'.....well I would but do you see my point. Everyone has their own interpretations of situations but I hope you do stick around StormSiren and don't get put off by all this hoo ha, it'll blow over.



Sir Sean Connery's love-child
Originally Posted by SpoOkY
yeah well not everyone would 'rather have lively debate anyday'.....well I would but do you see my point. Everyone has their own interpretations of situations but I hope you do stick around StormSiren and don't get put off by all this hoo ha, it'll blow over.

Storm Siren's gone. She hasn't posted a reply after loads of support, hey ho, you win some, you loose some.
And just like that....she was gone.



A system of cells interlinked
Originally Posted by LordSlaytan
Support? Nobody ever gave her any *****.
I was about to chime in on that point.... After a few more days have gone by and I have re-read all this stuff, she just over-reacted. Mayhap it's time to lock this thread and move on...
__________________
“It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.” ― Thomas Sowell



Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
Originally Posted by chicagofrog
did i say "more beautiful"? that's exactly my point, it's just like any of other words.
if A says to B to "****** off" that's offensive. if A speaks to himself cuz something slipped from his hand and says "******", i don't see the offence in the word. some people though would say "******" is an offensive word, full stop. not mentioning what contxt it becomes offensive in.
i don't now that i have to justify an opinion about such obvious a thing, especially since adidass said himself he was sorry if he hurt the feelings of anyone.
Yes, he did apologize and nobody seems to have a gripe with him, but you chimed in at that point to suggest that we americans (and since I was the one american who'd reacted to his choice of words, I'm thinking that meant me) were too dull to understand his meaning. This was not the case, as he clearly stated that his usage of the word "elitist" was "bad" when he said it.

if you read a book about, let's say, an ancient Japanese traditional martial art school that has a very elitist selection or a very elitist final test to get the black belt, i don't see any offence in the word itself. it just means it'll be hard to get the black belt, maybe even too hard and the sensei/teacher should be "more cool", but why would you see so much hate and all kinda negative feelings behind what is just a word?
"Hate"? You are overblowing the whole thing, in a very transparent attempt to paint the reaction as irrational. I certainly don't hate adidasss. I found his description to be not only inaccurate, but insulting to people who have been nice to him. I'm glad to see that he simply chose the wrong word, and that he is aware that people have welcomed him here. It is you who chose to be rude, and it's very clear that you're doing so under the guise of not liking americans.

The definition of "elite" is as you have given it, a non-judgemental term. But the definition of "elitist" is as follows, per www.dictionary.com:
eˇlitˇism or éˇlitˇism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-ltzm, -l-)
n.
The belief that certain persons or members of certain classes or groups deserve favored treatment by virtue of their perceived superiority, as in intellect, social status, or financial resources.

The sense of entitlement enjoyed by such a group or class.
Control, rule, or domination by such a group or class.

So, not only is the standard definition of the word insulting, but he knew his usage of the word would be.

Don't try and change it around now, it's all clearly visable upthread.


like i said, if you want to directly insult me for a post about an opinion i wrote about without having attacked anyone in particular, come on and drop the bomb onto me like your president has a cute penchant to do when people are not with him, they're against him.
Utter crap. This is, ironically, exactly what you are doing.

elitist to me doesn't mean you think you are better, it means you want a system/school/government/anything that want people to want to improve. in the example given above, it would be those martial artists that are not the best yet (and don't think the are either) but are trying their best to become it, with the exclusion of those who are lazy and are not trying to improve. i try to improve my skills in languages, music, martial arts, etc... whatever i dedicate myself to. if my wanting to improve myself and the reality check that i'll do better WITH people who have the same goal appears to you as a synonym for considering oneself superior to others, then yes, words don't mean anything anymore.
plus there's a huge step between knowing you're better at something than someone and believing you're superior to that person in everything (this last way of thinking being completely unrealistic and stupid).
That's great. You implied that others don't.

the svastika is a symbol for the nazis in Germany like it is for buddhism in India and for paganism in the baltic countries and Euskadi. words are the same, you may offend some people with them, while they mean an entirely different thing elsewhere. but since people move nowadays a lil bit more often (and faster) than 300 years ago, it wouldn't be totally useless in my humble opinion to open the mind of people teaching them that symbols, pictures, words, can mean different things, can be offensive or not depending on the place, the people they come from/are used by, the context...

gosh, poor directors that make a movie that's considered offensive. at least they get some money for it at the end, and publicity.
Your rudeness has nothing to do with the Germans or "offensive" directors. Don't try and pull all these people in with you.



Originally Posted by chicagofrog
did i say "more beautiful"? that's exactly my point, it's just like any of other words.
There'd be no point in calling something "beautiful" if it were not beautiful compared to something else. The word exists largely to differentiate things from one another. There'd be much less point in saying something was "beautiful" if you thought everything was, just as you wouldn't take a movie critic seriously if he gave everything four stars.


Originally Posted by chicagofrog
if A says to B to "****** off" that's offensive. if A speaks to himself cuz something slipped from his hand and says "******", i don't see the offence in the word. some people though would say "******" is an offensive word, full stop. not mentioning what contxt it becomes offensive in.
i don't now that i have to justify an opinion about such obvious a thing, especially since adidass said himself he was sorry if he hurt the feelings of anyone.
if you read a book about, let's say, an ancient Japanese traditional martial art school that has a very elitist selection or a very elitist final test to get the black belt, i don't see any offence in the word itself. it just means it'll be hard to get the black belt, maybe even too hard and the sensei/teacher should be "more cool", but why would you see so much hate and all kinda negative feelings behind what is just a word?
There's no argument over that. Context definitely matters, but that in no way supports your odd little rant (and the bizarre targetting of Americans in particular) about taboos and taking words literally.


Originally Posted by chicagofrog
like i said, if you want to directly insult me for a post about an opinion i wrote about without having attacked anyone in particular, come on and drop the bomb onto me like your president has a cute penchant to do when people are not with him, they're against him.
You don't get points for not attacking "anyone in particular" when you only avoid doing so by putting down broad groups of people, instead.

And if you're going to take a political shot devoid of any real argument, at least do so with some tact. Not every argument has to tie into your entire political worldview.


Originally Posted by chicagofrog
elitist to me doesn't mean you think you are better, it means you want a system/school/government/anything that want people to want to improve. in the example given above, it would be those martial artists that are not the best yet (and don't think the are either) but are trying their best to become it, with the exclusion of those who are lazy and are not trying to improve. i try to improve my skills in languages, music, martial arts, etc... whatever i dedicate myself to. if my wanting to improve myself and the reality check that i'll do better WITH people who have the same goal appears to you as a synonym for considering oneself superior to others, then yes, words don't mean anything anymore.
plus there's a huge step between knowing you're better at something than someone and believing you're superior to that person in everything (this last way of thinking being completely unrealistic and stupid).
As Sammy has already pointed out, if this is how you use the word, then you're not using it the way most others do. Context is quite important, but it cannot and should not replace the core definition of a word if at all possible, lest we all end up using words based on how we feel about them, which only leads to more misunderstandings and arguments.

You're not being argued with here because we don't understand you, however, but because we do. You assumed that anyone who didn't share your own personal definition of the word "elitist," or had other connotations attached to it than you did, should "study linguistics," as if having any kind of cultural vernacular is some kind of flaw. That's pretty astonishing coming from someone who seems so dead-set against any kind of cultural hegemony.



A system of cells interlinked
*Notices Sammy and Yoda actually agreeing on something*
*Falls over*
*Hits head on toilet*
*Invents flux capacitor*

Great Scott!!!



Originally Posted by Sedai
I was about to chime in on that point.... After a few more days have gone by and I have re-read all this stuff, she just over-reacted. Mayhap it's time to lock this thread and move on...
I hope I'm not being out of line here, but I think locking the thread would be completely ridiculous. Let people post what they want, where they want. Just my opinion.
__________________
One of the biggest myths told is that being intelligent is the absence of the ability to do stupid things.



A system of cells interlinked
Originally Posted by firegod
I hope I'm not being out of line here, but I think locking the thread would be completely ridiculous. Let people post what they want, where they want. Just my opinion.
Oh, of course, but in the spirit of keeping a clean and well organized forum, I figured the thread had gone completely away from what it was, and the conversations that are occuring could go on anywhere. But, alas, this place is as good as any, I guess. Continue to bashing



Standing in the Sunlight, Laughing
Originally Posted by Sedai
Oh, of course, but in the spirit of keeping a clean and well organized forum, I figured the thread had gone completely away from what it was, and the conversations that are occuring could go on anywhere. But, alas, this place is as good as any, I guess. Continue to bashing
If you think it's possible we'll need an entire thread devoted to Un-bigoting Chicagofrog, lock this one and I'll start one that will be searchable.



The People's Republic of Clogher
Originally Posted by SamsoniteDelilah
If you think it's possible we'll need an entire thread devoted to Un-bigoting Chicagofrog, lock this one and I'll start one that will be searchable.
Where's the Thumbscrews thread then?
__________________
"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how the Tatty 100 is done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." - Brendan Behan