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I understand what you mean, Sexy. How is someone born gay if people don't even experience sexual attraction until they hit puberty?
By that notion, people can't say they were born straight either.

Also sexual attraction can and often does occur prior to puberty.



Gays aren't having surgeries to cut off their penises or turn their vaginas into penises. That's a crazy thing to do to yourself. These people are doing it legally under the idea that they're something called "transgender." They've come up with a reason to do it. If that reason isn't really based on reality... why the Hell is it being done?

What if people started saying, "I don't like my arms. Please remove my arms. Please amputate me. I want to be amputated."

IN FACT, I think I actually have heard of cases where people wanted to be amputated on purpose.

You don't just do that to people. At least, I hope you don't.
Well this is veering into that area of medical responsibility. I think Omni mentioned body dysmorphia, and not long ago we were talking about the lady having ribs surgically removed so she could look like a Barbie doll.

I think adults have a right to make their own decisions, but it's up to doctors to decide whether they are going to practice medical ethics (and as we see in the cosmetics field, many of them don't.) There shouldn't be a need for laws that say what body parts you can have removed, it should be a matter of no doctors being willing to perform the operation due to their medical ethics.

(Don't misread - I'm not applying this to all sexual reassignment surgeries, but every case is different and if the person wants it done on a whim, has certain mental problems, other bio-dysmorphic symptoms, or has been psychologically or medically conditioned - like in the cases of the children put on sex hormones before they even reached puberty, etc., then maybe it's time for doctors to recognize these things, take a step back and say "Hey, time out.")

It's like the story of the guy who hated his foot (this is a true story...) He went to multiple surgeons to amputate his foot because he decided he didn't like it. No one would perform the operation because his foot was perfectly healthy. Instead, they rightly advised him that he needed a psychologist not a surgeon. In the end, the guy froze his foot in dry ice so that doctor would be forced to amputate it to save his life.



By that notion, people can't say they were born straight either.

Also sexual attraction can and often does occur prior to puberty.
I do believe that nobody is born assigned to a certain sexual orientation. I'm not saying being gay is a choice. I know it's not. But is being gay a biological thing? If not, then it must be environmental or psychological.



I know people usually don't want to hear from straight white males on these types of subjects, and I have said more than I want to say in the Caitlyn thread anyway. I do want to add that this idea of being born a certain way and that meaning that is how we should live our lives is a bit baffling to me. We are born extremely flawed no matter who we are. Most of us don't get rid of most of the bad inclinations we are born with, and yes, this definitely applies to the sexual habits of straight people. We are born 100% selfish and petulant, I don't ever see people saying that is how we should live our lives.
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Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
Hmmmm. I'm starting to think Omnizoa might be a woman now.
I'm curious what it is I said that provoked that.

Originally Posted by Camo
That was way too long.


Naw, but seriously, I'm just being thorough.

Originally Posted by Camo
Not going to watch a 7 minute video
Then don't. My point was implied anyway.

Originally Posted by Swan
Omnizoa reminds me of my aunt.
I'm curious what that means too.

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky
What are you even talking about?

Adults have the faculties to make decisions of this magnitude for themselves. Children do not have those faculties and should not be allowed to make such life altering decisions. Nor should an adult decide for the child that if that child feels this way, something drastic should be done about it.

Waiting until adulthood won't guarantee that the person won't regret their decision later, but at least they'll have had the time to really weigh the decision and understand how it will affect them.
If you're only talking about the decision-making aspect, then nevermind. Ignore what I said.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
Okay - first - the VIDEO... Omnizoa
... transgender teen gets hormones/estrogen... what am I supposed to start thinking about? I'm not immediately getting it.
Pardon the absence of context, that video was presented to me by a transgender as an appeal to empathy. As in: "look at this transgender, feel bad for her when she becomes irrationally hysterical and tries to commit suicide for no good ******* reason". In the video, Joules says "I don't know anyone who doesn't go through this" insinuating all transgenders suffer depression and are suicidal.

This doesn't help me understand transgenderism better, if anything it only reinforces the case against it since it paints transgenders as emotionally unstable people. That's not helping the "this is not a mental illness" argument.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
Gays aren't having surgeries to cut off their penises or turn their vaginas into penises. That's a crazy thing to do to yourself. These people are doing it legally under the idea that they're something called "transgender." They've come up with a reason to do it. If that reason isn't really based on reality... why the Hell is it being done?

What if people started saying, "I don't like my arms. Please remove my arms. Please amputate me. I want to be amputated."

IN FACT, I think I actually have heard of cases where people wanted to be amputated on purpose.

You don't just do that to people. At least, I hope you don't.
That's transableism, another minority which crawled out of the cracks and LGBT has tried their darndest to not think about because it raises questions they don't want to answer.


Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
You can call us crazy for liking the same sex. I really don't even care. I'm not convinced being gay is something you're born as, in fact. I've always been open to the possibility that it's environmental/psychological. I personally DON'T NEED people to say, "You were born that way" to accept me.
I don't hear that argument very often. I think it's interesting to think about.

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky
The reality is that relatively few transgender people actually undergo sexual reassignment surgery. (Granted for many of them it's not for lack of wanting the surgery, but rather for the inability to afford it.) Still, more often transgenders use hormone therapy or have no medical intervention at all. Male genitalia may simply be tucked. Biological females wear chest binders. Others elect only breast augmentation
That does begin to feed into the stereotyping element though. To be more accurate, transgenders don't need to do anything to be transgenders, they don't even need to be transvestites.

Originally Posted by Miss Vicky
Also sexual attraction can and often does occur prior to puberty.
I begin to wonder what could feasibly provoke sexual attraction if you take hormones out of the equation. The two seem inseparable to me.

Originally Posted by Captain Steel
Well this is veering into that area of medical responsibility. I think Omni mentioned body dysmorphia, and not long ago we were talking about the lady having ribs surgically removed so she could look like a Barbie doll.
There we go.

Originally Posted by Captain Steel
It's like the story of the guy who hated his foot (this is a true story...) He went to multiple surgeons to amputate his foot because he decided he didn't like it. No one would perform the operation because his foot was perfectly healthy. Instead, they rightly advised him that he needed a psychologist not a surgeon. In the end, the guy froze his foot in dry ice so that doctor would be forced to amputate it to save his life.
I hope they committed that guy.

Originally Posted by Aphex
I do believe that nobody is born assigned to a certain sexual orientation. I'm not saying being gay is a choice. I know it's not. But is being gay a biological thing? If not, then it must be environmental or psychological.
Interesting.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
I don't know. I'd need to hear more of the bad stories about transgender people who stopped feeling transgender. I do think they exist and they don't get talked about a lot. Omnizoa?
WEEELLLLLL...

In my previous debate on this topic I stumbled upon this guy who apparently went through the whole transgender-surgery thing and came out pretty pissed. His whole blog is about the subject and he directs a lot of his grievances at the "gender change industry" which seems to refer, collectively, to the liberal movement, the media, and the medical community.

He's written a few books.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
The idea that some people are "tops" and some are "bottoms." While I understand the need and desire to wanna call yourself one or the other... I kinda hate the labeling. The fact that it's a thing at all. It just bugs me.
Okay.

Or should I say...

Uke?



Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
I'm used to the bathroom segregation. I'll be uncomfortable if women start using the restroom with me. I don't care if men and women share a unisex bathroom where only one person uses it at a time, but I don't wanna be sitting on a toilet with another woman beside me. Granted - I'M TRAINED TO FEEL THAT WAY - it's a lifelong training - but I don't wanna untrain myself. I like tradition. The tradition is I go into a mens room and there aren't any women there. It's like a nice little escape pod from women. A mens only club. Keep it the way it is.

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transgenders don't need to do anything to be transgenders
I never said they did.

I begin to wonder what could feasibly provoke sexual attraction if you take hormones out of the equation. The two seem inseparable to me.
Because it's largely a mental thing. Sexual attraction and sexual arousal are not exclusive to those who have gone through or are going through puberty. Just as masturbation is not an activity exclusive to adults and adolescents.



Because it's largely a mental thing. Sexual attraction and sexual arousal are not exclusive to those who have gone through or are going through puberty. Just as masturbation is not an activity exclusive to adults and adolescents.
Well... leaving aside "incidental" masturbation, I'm not really getting the analogy. What leads you to believe it's "largely" a mental thing?



Define "incidental" masturbation.
*laughs* Accidental. Some kid plays with their bits cause they're 4 years old and it's there.

I left it out since that doesn't seem to feed into your intended analogy.



*laughs* Accidental. Some kid plays with their bits cause they're 4 years old and it's there.

I left it out since that doesn't seem to feed into your intended analogy.
Okay but tugging at your dick when you're a wee lad for fun because you have this funny thing attached to you is WAAAY different than actual masturbation for sexual pleasure. Or am I wrong? I don't even have a foot in this debate really, I just think there is a big difference.



Okay but tugging at your dick when you're a wee lad for fun because you have this funny thing attached to you is WAAAY different than actual masturbation for sexual pleasure. Or am I wrong? I don't even have a foot in this debate really, I just think there is a big difference.
That's my point. I don't think she meant it that way.



*laughs* Accidental. Some kid plays with their bits cause they're 4 years old and it's there.
Well then I guess little Miss Vicky was just VERY prone to "accidents" back then. And those "accidents" sure felt good. Also - by pure coincidence - they happened with greater frequency after watching attractive males.

But sexual attraction and sexual arousal surely can't exist without pubescent hormones.



I do think we have a natural predisposition for masturbation. I think that's obvious.

Just don't want to seem like I'm picking sides. Anyway, ignore me.



Between Caitlyn telling me on 10 magazine covers it's not about the publicity, Tangerine teaching me it's okay to laugh at sassy transgender crack whores, big time colleges supplying us with a third pot to piss in, and mofos telling me when they started piddling with themselves I feel I have learned a lot about the transgender community this year. All this from the more open minded and liberal segment of our society. Great stuff.



mofos telling me when they started piddling with themselves
I was using my own experiences as a way to counter the (misguided) notion that sexuality doesn't happen until puberty. If this sort of talk offends your conservative sensibilities, it might be best to avoid these types of threads.

Also, Caitlyn Jenner and Tangerine represent all transgenders about as much as Donald Trump represents all Republicans.



Originally Posted by Miss Vicky
Well then I guess little Miss Vicky was just VERY prone to "accidents" back then. And those "accidents" sure felt good. Also - by pure coincidence - they happened with greater frequency after watching attractive males.

But sexual attraction and sexual arousal surely can't exist without pubescent hormones.
Puberty isn't exactly a fixed start-by, end-by date.

How do you explain sexual attraction?

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
I don't want to. Oh my God... the idea of sharing a bathroom with women... women I know going into the bathroom with me.... no. Just no. You might as well be telling me to shop in the women's department for clothes.
Don't be such a girl.

Originally Posted by seanc
Between Caitlyn telling me on 10 magazine covers it's not about the publicity, Tangerine teaching me it's okay to laugh at sassy transgender crack whores, big time colleges supplying us with a third pot to piss in, and mofos telling me when they started piddling with themselves I feel I have learned a lot about the transgender community this year. All this from the more open minded and liberal segment of our society. Great stuff.
*laughs*



I was using my own experiences as a way to counter the (misguided) notion that sexuality doesn't happen until puberty. If this sort of talk offends your conservative sensibilities, it might be best to avoid these types of threads.

Also, Caitlyn Jenner and Tangerine represent all transgenders about as much as Donald Trump represents all Republicans.

Or as much as when you started masturbating represents when everyone starts having sexual thoughts.