The Shining -- Hidden Meanings

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Originally Posted by LordSlaytan
The entire ending differs from the book.
Yup.

The film doesn't have any of the back story that explains Jack's life and childhood--and that gives more of a sympathetic tone to his descent into psycho-land and his relationship with Danny. But, more than that, the film removes any of the redemptive elements for Jack, which come out in the book's ending. Unlike the book--as dark and creepy as it is--Kubrick's version is just bleak and unrelenting in every way, which is part of why I dig it.

For me, one of the things that always bugged me about the movie is that I cannot see any kind of connection, emotion-wise, between Jack and Wendy. Maybe it's the lack of chemistry between Nicholson and Duval, maybe it's the complete lack of any kind of "married people" mannerisms or habits or actions, but the two of them feel like strangers, and that, too, is different from the book--in King's version, they do love each other, but their marriage is strained because of the alcoholism and Jack's hurting Danny.

But after considering all this, I finally came to the conclusion that Kubrick simply wanted it that way. A lot of marriages and families end up like that, I suppose, so we get some Stanley-commentary on the frustrations of a man who is tied to something he isn't invested in (his family) while fruitlessly pursuing something beyond his reach (writing). Once the hotel gets hold of him, there's nothing to prevent him from (or to really even think twice about) wanting to kill his family. He can get them out of the way for good, and be with his beloved hotel--something that, unlike his writing, he's good at.

Another thing: I never quite understood why Kubrick would want Duval in the movie in the first place, unless it was for her looks (that butt-ugly face always seems to have a vaguely frightened expression, and she genuinely looks terrified throughout the entire last sequence of the movie). The woman is a terrible actor--she makes me cringe every time she speaks, and of course we all know the "100-plus takes" stories. Any thoughts or knowledge 'bout this?
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Originally Posted by The Silver Bullet
How about you read it?
Now don't be like that, why should I read it when someone here will know and tell me, because thats what people here are like.

Thanks Mary for that.
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Originally Posted by Nebbit
Thanks Mary for that.
Well, I didn't say much in the way of details, but no problem. The book is excellent, though, so you should really check it out.



Originally Posted by Mary Loquacious
Well, I didn't say much in the way of details, but no problem. The book is excellent, though, so you should really check it out.
Most of my reading is to do with work, only read for fun on holidays, so how did it end in the book?



...so how did it end in the book?
The Chinese diplomat burns down the oatmill and escapes into the snow on horseback. And after the crocodile attacks of the second-to-last chapter, oh! It's certainly a twist!



Originally Posted by The Silver Bullet
The Chinese diplomat burns down the oatmill and escapes into the snow on horseback. And after the crocodile attacks of the second-to-last chapter, oh! It's certainly a twist!
you are such a spoil sport



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by LordSlaytan
I shouldn't have posted my veiw, because it's obviously unpopular. However, just to make something clear, I am not racist. I've had friends and lovers of all different varieties and flavors. It's just that where I live, it is a huge melting pot. Oregon has a huge influx of Mexican immigrants, and me riding the train everyday, I see the same thing constantly. It just irritates me, I can't help it. I can also go on and on about things that drive me nuts about my fellow white Americans (Jerry Springer and Jenny Jones audiences, 'nuff said), so it's not race or cultural differences that bother me. It's ignorance (which I know I can be accused of) and the expectations of a few that does.

Sorry for posting off topic and expressing my tiredness.
I don't think that view is unpopular at all, I just don't share it. And that is no reason for you to not post it.

Originally Posted by The Silver Bullet
Nope.

In many cases, Kubrick departed from the source text quite significantly. You'll notice that the film is referred to as "Stanley Kubrick's" The Shining, and not as "Stephen King's".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe King actually disowned the film version of his story. There was a mini-series in the 1990s that used his name, and it was much more faithful to the original text.
Oh, I remember that mini-series... The only nightmarish about it was its crappyness.

Originally Posted by Yoda
...a government which is presumably funded by the people. You can say the responsibility lies on the government, and not the majority race, but it ultimately comes to the same thing.
I agree. But that doesn't necessarily mean that every white person is individually responsible. That would mean that I myself as a non-american but white person is responsible for the tragedy of native americans and slavery etc. etc. even though neither I nor my ancenstors have been part of it. If we looked on this matter on an individual basis we should devote our time to look up the descendants to the slave traders and make them pay - even if these descendants have never set their foot in US themselves. That would be absurd. No, the responsibility lies on the government as an institution because now as well as then they are the decisionmakers and the representatives of the american people. Actions sanctioned by the government are forever the responsibility of the government. That's how it works (or should work) in all democracies. A governmental institution doesn't disappear with the individuals running it, but the decision made by those individuals are forever until their followers change them.

Originally Posted by Mary Loquacious
Another thing: I never quite understood why Kubrick would want Duval in the movie in the first place, unless it was for her looks (that butt-ugly face always seems to have a vaguely frightened expression, and she genuinely looks terrified throughout the entire last sequence of the movie). The woman is a terrible actor--she makes me cringe every time she speaks, and of course we all know the "100-plus takes" stories. Any thoughts or knowledge 'bout this?
I think it is a brilliant move by Kubrick to pick her. He probably picked her because she annoys the **** out of the audience, and be honest... A little part of you wants Jack to smash her skull in because of her sheep-alike appearance. I think this is one of the things why this film is so brilliant. In "ordinary" horror films, there is someone going completely mad but no one really knows why, and that is supposed to be scary as hell. In The Shining we don't exactly get an explanation to why Jack goes mad (apparantly you get this if you read the book which I haven't), but we see a few of the things that triggers the madness. And some of us can even understand the poor guy. That makes it scarier because how can you tell someone to calm the **** down if you somewhere can understand why he is going mad? Seeing and listening to that stupid cow would drive me insane any day.

I've heard somewhere that Kubrick was irritated with her during the whole shooting of the film. But I think he had to talk her into doing the part in the first place so he had to suit himself, I guess.
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They had temporarily escaped the factories, the warehouses, the slaughterhouses, the car washes - they'd be back in captivity the next day but
now they were out - they were wild with freedom. They weren't thinking about the slavery of poverty. Or the slavery of welfare and food stamps. The rest of us would be all right until the poor learned how to make atom bombs in their basements.



Originally Posted by Piddzilla
I agree. But that doesn't necessarily mean that every white person is individually responsible. That would mean that I myself as a non-american but white person is responsible for the tragedy of native americans and slavery etc. etc. even though neither I nor my ancenstors have been part of it. If we looked on this matter on an individual basis we should devote our time to look up the descendants to the slave traders and make them pay - even if these descendants have never set their foot in US themselves. That would be absurd. No, the responsibility lies on the government as an institution because now as well as then they are the decisionmakers and the representatives of the american people. Actions sanctioned by the government are forever the responsibility of the government. That's how it works (or should work) in all democracies. A governmental institution doesn't disappear with the individuals running it, but the decision made by those individuals are forever until their followers change them.
Right. But haven't they done so already? The laws have been changed, of course; the United States government abolished slavery some time ago.



I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by Yoda
Right. But haven't they done so already? The laws have been changed, of course; the United States government abolished slavery some time ago.
Slay talked about hating to feel indebted to Native Americans and African Americans because he was white. I just pointed out that if anyone was in debt, it was the government, not the white people as individuals. If the debt was settled the minute the US government abolished slavery is another question. Personally, I don't think so, but that's your own business.



I don't know if I've ever met an Aboriginal. I wanna meet one. I think that would be a cool thing to call myself - an aboriginal. Or maybe a faboriginal.



Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity
I don't know if I've ever met an Aboriginal. I wanna meet one. I think that would be a cool thing to call myself - an aboriginal. Or maybe a faboriginal.



This is a Faboriginal, his name is Ernie Dingo, he was in the 2nd Crocodile Dundee movie, He is a really nice guy.



Originally Posted by Mary Loquacious
Another thing: I never quite understood why Kubrick would want Duval in the movie in the first place, unless it was for her looks (that butt-ugly face always seems to have a vaguely frightened expression, and she genuinely looks terrified throughout the entire last sequence of the movie). The woman is a terrible actor--she makes me cringe every time she speaks, and of course we all know the "100-plus takes" stories. Any thoughts or knowledge 'bout this?
I’ve been thinking about this… Shelly’s frumpy/scared look reminds me, in a way, of some of the women you see who have been living in abusive relationships… and blindly loving their abuser even though they are afraid of them… If Kubrick really was trying to make a statement about mankind, maybe he was hinting at that… and trying to show women they are stronger then they think they are…
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Originally Posted by Caitlyn
I’ve been thinking about this… Shelly’s frumpy/scared look reminds me, in a way, of some of the women you see who have been living in abusive relationships… and blindly loving their abuser even though they are afraid of them… If Kubrick really was trying to make a statement about mankind, maybe he was hinting at that… and trying to show women they are stronger then they think they are…
It certainly made a lot of women want to kick the crap out of Shelly Duval.
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I am having a nervous breakdance
Originally Posted by Caitlyn
I’ve been thinking about this… Shelly’s frumpy/scared look reminds me, in a way, of some of the women you see who have been living in abusive relationships… and blindly loving their abuser even though they are afraid of them… If Kubrick really was trying to make a statement about mankind, maybe he was hinting at that… and trying to show women they are stronger then they think they are…
Referring a bit to the discussion in "Women in horror"; maybe Kubrick wanted to criticize the way that conventional horror films show women by having a woman in his film that acts more like a cow than all the other women in horror film put together.



Mother! Oh, God! Mother! Blood!
Originally Posted by Caitlyn
I’ve been thinking about this… Shelly’s frumpy/scared look reminds me, in a way, of some of the women you see who have been living in abusive relationships… and blindly loving their abuser even though they are afraid of them… If Kubrick really was trying to make a statement about mankind, maybe he was hinting at that… and trying to show women they are stronger then they think they are…
Everything I've seen with Shelley Duvall (about 4 films and one made for TV), I think, "How the hell did she ever get a part?" One would think she would never make it past the audition. Doing a quick check on IMDb, it appears Robert Altman set her up with several of her early roles.

Shelley Duvall = Blechh!
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Originally Posted by Mark
Everything I've seen with Shelley Duvall (about 4 films and one made for TV), I think, "How the hell did she ever get a part?" One would think she would never make it past the audition. Doing a quick check on IMDb, it appears Robert Altman set her up with several of her early roles.

Shelley Duvall = Blechh!
You gotta admit though, there is no one who could've played Olive the same way.



Originally Posted by LordSlaytan
You gotta admit though, there is no one who could've played Olive the same way.
Hey you, stop reading my mind that is what I was going to say. {Off to take more Zypexa}



Originally Posted by nebbit


This is a Faboriginal, his name is Ernie Dingo, he was in the 2nd Crocodile Dundee movie, He is a really nice guy.
hmmmmmmm......personal experience tells you this Nebbit......
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