Movies you couldn't even finish.

No it's not common sense. Anyone who has a problem with homosexuality is indirectly supporting the discriminatory status quo of the current situation. So yes, it does have an affect on me, because these people go on to vote for Proposition 8 based on their latent ignorance so it's pretty clear we have to go out of our way to show them how wrong they are in their beliefs.

Nah, right now, I just think you're being a dumbass.
And I think you should take a breath and try being a hated minority, maybe you'd realize a thing or two about my "irrational" behavior. I hope it's not too difficult to understand why, given the current power balance between homophobes and homosexuals, I find your plea for a more tolerant approach to homophobia ridiculous.

Your lenience towards homophobia is understandable, you're not gay after all. Although personally, I seem to find it hard to be tolerant to racists too, no matter how rational they think their reasoning is.

Apropos mark's analogy: what would have happened had someone declared they thought Do the right thing was a terrible film because it had a lot of black and hispanic people in it? Everyone would have gone on their merry way because he has a right to be annoyed by those people? Well, I certainly would have objected because like I said, I have a zero tolerance stance towards discrimination, and unlike mack, I think any discrimination based on an innate quality makes you a dumbass. There is nothing rational about it, no matter what a 5000 year old scripture says about it.

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Yeah, but again, there really are varying degrees of having "a problem with homosexuality". I do understand what you mean and that's fine you feel that you have to defend your lifestyle so rabidly. I think you're wrong in your approach, though, moreso than your line of thinking. But I also think you're a bit whacked out in your line of thinking.

And Prop 8 is a tricky example, because that ballot was pretty much a slap in the face to any notion of the separation of church and state we had here.

Adidasss, I think the responsibility to be tolerant is yours as well because I personally think you're right and they're wrong, despite the current power imbalance. You should try to be more understanding of people who aren't bad folks, really, rather misguided or misinformed or confused or whatever. If someone has been taught and shown this one thing their whole lives, how is it their fault when they become a little apprehensive when shown the alternative? And I stand by my easily offendable remark, because not only do you take offense when someone says something even borderline questionable, but I've seen you "find" latent homophobia in posts here that are most definitely not homophobic.

Homophobia, by the way, is such a ridiculous blanket term that doesn't mean anything anymore because people on both sides have a million different personal definitions for the word. I think they need a new word.

I think the racism/hesistance to accept homosexuality connection is a shaky one and I already explained why. I never said any form of discrimination is rational. But, as a rational person, I can certainly see why some perfectly reasonable people have their reservations towards homosexuality.

And maybe you're totally right: If I was gay, it's possible I'd have a different tone about all this ruckus but right now I'm honestly just trying to make the most logical argument I can think of. You throw around words like homohobe pretty frequently but do you think that really does you any good? Shouldn't you try to understand why someone has misgivings towards homosexuality before you call them a dumbass homophobe? Isn't that the most, you know, rational way to go about this?

I know that goes against your zero tolerance policy and all, though, so I guess not.

In this day and age, homosexuality should not be an obscure notion, especially in the west. That leads me to conclude that anybody who still harbors any ill feeling towards homosexuality is being an abject bigot, rather than just being ignorant.
Well then show them to me, I told you before, I'm not above criticism and I'm more than willing to listen to your case. If you can show me that my accusations have been unfounded (in this case I think we both agree the person in question does have a problem with homosexuality, but seem to disagree on how to handle such cases). I can think of two major instances where I couldn't contain my anger on this issue, Pyro tramp and the bathory nutcases. Both of which I consider open and shut cases of homophobia. I also took issue with Brokeback mountain being denied of its central theme, but that was just a case of misguidedness rather than homophobia.

I disagree, it's a well defined word with an unmistakable meaning; prejudice against homosexuality.
I don't, because there is no rational argument against homosexuality.
You may have followed the discussion with mack, who is by all accounts a very intelligent person, and yet not even she could defend the prejudice towards homosexuality outside of scripture. And I trust you don't consider falling back on that a rational argument...
I'm willing to have a intelligent and serious discussion with serious and intelligent people. I've tried doing that numerous times and it never, ever ends well. Not one of them has been able to admit to being wrong but have rather chosen to retreat from the discussion when faced with inarguable evidence which is contrary to their beliefs. When you face such stubborn resistance to reason time and time again, your patience tends to run out. I wish it didn't, and I wish I could go about being calm and rational about this, but you know, there's only so much sh*t a person can take. :\

It's by no means an oscure notion, but it is definitely a legitimate departure from the established norm for a lot of people in the United States. Maybe I should try looking at things from where you're standing a little more, but why should I when you won't accept that sometimes the way these so-called dumbass homophobes feel is out of their control? And, again, a lot of these people you're rallying against have supremely complex and difficult opinions about homosexuality that can't be simplified into an "I agree with it" or an "I don't agree with it".

I'm not going to drag out specific posts here, but I think if we took a private poll of every MoFo right now, the results would bear out the fact that you tend to blow these sorts of things way out of proportion. And your initial responses in this thread are a perfect example. Why is someone a dumbass homophobe just for saying he doesn't enjoy watching homosexual acts in movies? He even very quickly apologized to you, saying he hoped you weren't offended, and then you called him a dumbass homophobe.

Right, but despite what you're trying to say here, the fact is there are distinctions that have to me made. I guess we just disagree, and maybe it is because I'm not gay, but I don't believe in the idea that anyone who displays even the slightest reservation with homosexuality should automatically be lumped into a category with hateful bigots. And there are only so many ways I can re-word that, but I think you understand how I feel, just like I understand how you feel.

I'm not trying to make a rational argument against homosexuality. I'm not even talking about hardlined prejudice here, man, I'm talking about uncontrollable apprehensiveness or hesitance. I think there's a big difference and you don't. So, okay.

You almost sound like a reasonable, thoughtful human being with actual feelings here, adidasss. Listen, I sympathize with what you're saying, really, but I also feel like you've now resorted to your own form of unrelenting stubbornness to combat the unrelenting stubbornness you've encountered elsewhere. How is that a good thing?

I'm still waiting for you to post a single good looking frame from the movie.

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I hate to play "gotcha journalism", but screw it, I just can't resist. I've been looking over some of the older MoFo discussions regarding homosexuality and I'm going to post some of the more glaring things you said over in the Homosexuals...?! thread

Now, do I even have to ask? I'm going to.

What the ****, adidasss? What's happened to you over the course of the past two years that you've turned a complete 180 on this ruckus? When did zero tolerance kick in?

And that first quote hilariously contradicts everything you said in the same sex marriage/polygamy thread. Your first post in the same sex marriage thread asks, and I quote...

Are you serious? You answered that question yourself two years ago. Gah!

It certainly does.

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I called him a dumbass homophobe because he preceded his homophobia with a denial of the same ("I don't have anything against it, I just can't watch it" say what?). He also based his opinion on the quality of a film solely on the sexuality of the main protagonists. That's what makes him a dumbass.
Ok, I've proven I can have a serious discussion on this matter when I feel like it and when I think there's a point to it. I resorted to namecalling here because it's clear we're not dealing with the brightest of crayons here. See above.

So really, what is it that I'm stubborn about, not accepting homophobia as a valid stance?

I think I answered that question above, there's only so much sh*t a person can take...

Charming attempt at character assassination. People can change their minds, I certainly have. And now I'm doing my best to change other people's minds, sometimes with reasoning, sometimes with namecalling, and creating an absolutely negative atmosphere towards prejudice which will push people to reevaluate their opinions, like I have. So wherein lies your problem? I should shut up and let them fester in their prejudice?

I think the whole "I don't mind it, but it's not for me" argument annoys you, and I can understand that, but it's really not as inflammatory as you make it out to be, man. All he said was something to the effect of the idea of seeing River Phoenix performing fellatio wasn't for him. So what, ya know? I know I'm not gay, but if I was gay, I don't think that would bother me.

Like I said, you're stubborn in that you refuse to look at things from other people's perspectives, which is something you did fine two years ago. And you're incredibly over-sensitive to even the slightest instance of a person having misgivings towards homosexuality. AND you refuse to acknowledge the obvious distinction between uncontrollabe apprehensiveness and outright bigotry. Which is also something you had no problem doing two years ago.

Even more than assassinating you character, I was hoping maybe your own, two year old words would make you look at things a little more reasonably. Since it's obvious I could never win an argument like this with you, I figured maybe you could convince yourself. And what's my problem with the way you currently go about responding to stuff like this? I think I've gone into that in pretty exhaustive detail already, sir.

It is very difficult to get past certain hurdles in you mind such as the hesistance to accept homosexuality. Great point, adidasss from two years ago!

Hmmm, yes, very reasonable of you to acknowledge all that adidasss. I appreciate your candidness, honesty and willingness to look at things from different perspectives. Your attitude makes you seem very credible to me and you are doing a fantastic service to your cause in maintaining this wonderful, level-headedness about things. You're very wise, adidasss from two years ago. Very wise, indeed.

No need to apologize, adidasss from two years ago! I'm glad you're able to elevate your discourse past your own personal feelings and realize the complexity of the issue at hand!

I'm getting tired of going around in circles. Bottom line, you'd like me to stop taking issue with every instance of homophobia. That's not gonna happen so if that bothers you you best put me on ignore...:\

Okay. Sorry I called you obnoxious.

I love this site. You two are two of my favorite posters and you both just emphasized why. Great discussion you two. Seriously.

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We are both the source of the problem and the solution, yet we do not see ourselves in this light...

To continue Mark's stills:

ok, firstly i'm not homophobic in any way...considering my sister is gay and so is my uncle, i have no personal quams with it, and whatever people choose to do in their private lives is completley their business, i know plenty of gay people, and i get along great with them...i just think my post was misinterpretted...i just didn't care for the movie is all i was getting at, and its not the fact that it deals with gay people or gay issues, it was just the fact that the movie was boring, and i didn't like it...i've seen plenty of movies that have nothing to do with sexuality that were terible...once again i apologize if i offended anyone by what i said, i didn't mean to come off as an ass or as homophobic, which is certainly not the case, i just didn't like the movie, which is why i posted about it...and if all else fails, and you still think i'm an ass, then all i can say is **** off...i mean if you get all bent out of shape about a post, from someone you've never even met, that you completely misinterpretted, then you need a serious re-evaluation of life...prehaps take a course or two in self containment...i'd hate to meet someone that acts that way in real life, you just jumped all up on my ****, even after i clarified and apologized if i offended you...i guess i should ocmpliment you on your judgement skills though, i mean you seem to think you know a lot about my personal feelings when i haven't even so much as met you in person...i bet it feels good inside to be able to real people so wel, just after reading a post about a movie they didn't care for...good job ace!

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"Empire had the better ending. I mean, Luke gets his hand cut off, finds out Vader's his father, Han gets frozen and taken away by Boba Fett. It ends on such a down note. I mean, that's what life is, a series of down endings. All Jedi had was a bunch of Muppets." - Dante Hicks

My apologies if your posts was misinterpreted, but I did ask for a clarification and got what I (and apparently someone else who is not so gung-ho about homophobia) perceived as a negative attitude towards homosexuality (you repeated that your main qualm with this film is that it deals with male prostitutes).

i can see how one could mistake that, but that's not what my issue with it was, i was just commenting on the fact that that isn't my favorite topic for a movie, but that does not mean in any way that i won't watch a movie with male prostitution or homosexual themes, because i knew that's what it was about before i even rented it, i just thought the movie was boring...that's why i didn't finish it, the subject of a movie is not the most important thing to me when deciding if i'm going to watch it or not, if it's a good movie then it's a good movie, period, regardless of topic matter...

I have never started a movie that I did not finish, even the ones I hated.

I admire that. Of course, if you have an emergency or a power outage watching something on cable (or some such), and you didn't enjoy the first part, you might be hesitant to finish it before you see all the other films you want to see. Welcome to MoFo.

Well, I didn't keep that in mind, I'm sure there were films that I didn't finish (although not many), but it wasn't because it was so bad that I 'couldn't' as my head may explode from the lameness. You can learn from the bad as well from the good, and even the ugly. And thank you for your friendly greeting.