Also, when Family Guy does a much better job with its portrayal of an unlikeable handicapped character than you did, then you just know you messed up:
A scary thing happened on the way to the Movie Forums - Horrorcrammers
I don't know. Whenever I hear Franklin go on his little rant to himself about he basically got coaxed into coming, I always think, "Yeah, that's right. They were pretty thoughtless about what the logistics and consequences of them might be for you to go on this trip that you probably had misgivings about." I think Franklin had the right to be salty. Granted, I also like it in stories where people become really irritable towards each other under stressful situations, at least younger people.
I feel like that case is dying on the vine in light of more and more insightful opinions like this one being offered.
It makes the character more complex. It makes the dynamics of the groups more intense. It creates a tension within the group of what will ultimately be victims.
None of that is exploitation, it's actually good writing.
I stumbled onto MoE as part of a double feature with Carnival of Souls over a decade ago. So I've always linked those two in my mind. One person I showed MoE to a couple years ago said it really reminded them of Night of the Seagulls. The only Blind Dead movie I've seen is the Ghost Galleon, so I don't have great hopes there.
Shudder has a movie called The Child in its description references "for fans of Messiah of Evil." Upon watching it, I realized I had watched it once already before (during the pandemic), so I turned it off, but now realize, I couldn't remember a damn thing about it, so I should probably rewatch it. My only recollection was, it had that ethereal, dream-like 70's horror vibe; which is actually different than MoE. MoE is kind of more Lovecraftian, which is probably why it's hard to find a similar movie. City of the Living Dead, kind of strikes me as that dreamy, ethereal version of it, that's, well, a lot more bloody. Kind of. Or maybe it's the American sensibility trying to do a Euro type of movie (the directors say Antonioni. That, I raise my eyebrow to); but Superstition (1982) falls under that category, and yet I wouldn't say that that's in the same undefinable category as Messiah of Evil.
I've bought a DVD of Lemora due to your praise of it, but I am saving it for a Halloween group watch, and that's backlisted so much it probably won't be this year.
I'm looking as well.
I guess other possibilities (probably leaning into the ethereal horror and folk tale movies) -
Wesele (1973) (this one I did see during a Martin Scorsese present's Polish Cinema thing years ago). I will at least recommend it, but it's more folk tale and not really horror.
There's also a 70's czech version of Beauty and the Beast (Panna a netvor, 1978) I'm curious about as well as Zulawski's The Devil (which never even got a MondoVision DVD release AFAICT), but those guesses are very blind. And in these grasps, I'm probably straying pretty far.
ETA: and let's be honest. Zulawski won't be holding that camera still. I can't imagine getting a MoE fix from him.
Shudder has a movie called The Child in its description references "for fans of Messiah of Evil." Upon watching it, I realized I had watched it once already before (during the pandemic), so I turned it off, but now realize, I couldn't remember a damn thing about it, so I should probably rewatch it. My only recollection was, it had that ethereal, dream-like 70's horror vibe; which is actually different than MoE. MoE is kind of more Lovecraftian, which is probably why it's hard to find a similar movie. City of the Living Dead, kind of strikes me as that dreamy, ethereal version of it, that's, well, a lot more bloody. Kind of. Or maybe it's the American sensibility trying to do a Euro type of movie (the directors say Antonioni. That, I raise my eyebrow to); but Superstition (1982) falls under that category, and yet I wouldn't say that that's in the same undefinable category as Messiah of Evil.
I've bought a DVD of Lemora due to your praise of it, but I am saving it for a Halloween group watch, and that's backlisted so much it probably won't be this year.
I'm looking as well.
I guess other possibilities (probably leaning into the ethereal horror and folk tale movies) -
Wesele (1973) (this one I did see during a Martin Scorsese present's Polish Cinema thing years ago). I will at least recommend it, but it's more folk tale and not really horror.
There's also a 70's czech version of Beauty and the Beast (Panna a netvor, 1978) I'm curious about as well as Zulawski's The Devil (which never even got a MondoVision DVD release AFAICT), but those guesses are very blind. And in these grasps, I'm probably straying pretty far.
ETA: and let's be honest. Zulawski won't be holding that camera still. I can't imagine getting a MoE fix from him.
Yeah, I guess I just can't help but scratch my head when I see people cheer when Franklin dies. Like, I get why some people may find his performance unpleasant since he's clearly over-the-top, but compared to the other characters, he clearly feels like the most tragic of the bunch. Like, as for the other three victims, they act like dicks to Franklin because, idk, they view him as an outcast, I guess. Like, okay, sure. Franklin acts like a dick due to the complications he faces as a result of his paralysis and his treatment from the rest of the group. It's just a far more complex characterization and he's definitely the one I sympathize with the most in the film.
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Yeah, I guess I just can't help but scratch my head when I see people cheer when Franklin dies. Like, I get why some people may find his performance unpleasant since he's clearly over-the-top, but compared to the other characters, he clearly feels like the most tragic of the bunch. Like, as for the other three victims, they act like dicks to Franklin because, idk, they view him as an outcast, I guess. Like, okay, sure. Franklin acts like a dick due to the complications he faces as a result of his paralysis and his treatment from the rest of the group. It's just a far more complex characterization and he's definitely the one I sympathize with the most in the film.
That is what Hooper put in the movie, on purpose, I am 100% sure and that is just another reason why the film is a masterpiece.
I felt the empathy for him all the way out, even though you kinda wanna tell him to **** off.
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I dunno man, you know I respect you but I feel like you're really treading water here, making phantom arguments I'm not even sure you've thought through or believe for some reason I haven't figured out yet.
"Just because something happens in reality doesn't justify the choice to use it in a film." Really? I think it absolutely does. I can't actually understand, without more contextualization from you, what that statement is even supposed to mean. Of course, if something exists in reality it can be used in art. What other point of view is there on that subject?
"Just because something happens in reality doesn't justify the choice to use it in a film." Really? I think it absolutely does. I can't actually understand, without more contextualization from you, what that statement is even supposed to mean. Of course, if something exists in reality it can be used in art. What other point of view is there on that subject?
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You and I will, rare as it is, disagree on this one. I find that scene not silly at all, like no silliness present, but disturbing as f*ck. It's so f*cked up when they're trying to put the hammer in his hand and trying to help him hit her in the head like the cattle in the abattoir they all lost they're jobs in... I find that shit haunting.
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An unlikable victim, or any victim? And do they have to be teens?
I worded it poorly. Unlikeable. I'm looking at Wooly's subversion comment through a very specific lens. This being what we might come to expect from a character with a handicap when they show up in an American horror film (most specifically a slasher). When we think of these groups of people being systematically killed off, there are usually at least one or two that are ******** that the audience is meant to dislike. Bullies, chauvanists, racists, nuisances. In instances where these films have a character who is disabled in some way, they virtually never get saddled with the above character issues. They are either used as a shortcut to sympathy or they are made morally above reproach or, in best case instances, the disability is a background detail of the character (as MKS mentioned, Mark would likely be one of these rare instances). But my memory is garbage, so I think it is very possible I just don't remember some.
But I do know I have seen a thousand horror films and my immediate expectation when I see someone in one of these films, and they are in a wheelchair, or blind, or deaf, or different in any way like this, if they are not the ultimate villain of the film (which I would obviously concede is a trope) I immediately assume they will not do many things which are controversial. They most likely will not even sully their reputations with something as morally compromised as a visible sex drive. And so by Franklin being so notorioualy unlikable, this is the trope he is subverting. Do I think this subversion is groundbreaking or a breakthrough for people with disabilities? No. Do I think there may be instances where he is not ideal as representation? Sure. But him not meeting those standards doesn't disqualify him from being a character who turns some of our expectations upside down. And that has some value, in that in paves the way for more nuanced characters or this generally marginalized and under represented group.
As for age, I didn't think of that, but it seeming clear to me now that it is entirely normal for a film to make an older, especially elderly person, unlikeable in a film where they are an inevitable victim. So there are probably a lot of exceptions to all of this
Last edited by crumbsroom; 05-23-22 at 09:32 AM.
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I dunno man, you know I respect you but I feel like you're really treading water here, making phantom arguments I'm not even sure you've thought through or believe for some reason I haven't figured out yet.
"Just because something happens in reality doesn't justify the choice to use it in a film." Really? I think it absolutely does. I can't actually understand, without more contextualization from you, what that statement is even supposed to mean. Of course, if something exists in reality it can be used in art. What other point of view is there on that subject?
"Just because something happens in reality doesn't justify the choice to use it in a film." Really? I think it absolutely does. I can't actually understand, without more contextualization from you, what that statement is even supposed to mean. Of course, if something exists in reality it can be used in art. What other point of view is there on that subject?
*Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities
For instance, dialogue. Transcribe a conversation. Even one you enjoy. Read it back. It will not be a particularly pleasurable read, filled with the banal sloppiness, ugliness and outright cringe of amateur writing because that is what we are doing in real time, spouting off poorly thought first drafts. Even “realistic” dialogue is highly stylized for a specific effect.
This goes for characterization. To flip back your question of “have you ever met an obnoxious handicapped person,” let me ask, have you ever met an individual that acted like a racial or gay stereotype? The answer is likely yes. Would “but people are really like that” be a convincing argument and justification for the stereotype’s inclusion?
Fictional narratives are constructions made entirely by conscious choices and unconscious biases. They are a reflection of the creator, not “reality.” Even if the creator sought to craft a narrative that encompassed the nonsensical randomness, their choices would have to reflect that goal to create a narrative which encompasses that randomness. Otherwise, it will come off as bad fiction, full of plot holes and contrivance.
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As for age, I didn't think of that, but it seeming clear to me now that it is entirely normal for a film to make an older, especially elderly person, unlikeable in a film where they are an inevitable victim. So there are probably a lot of exceptions to all of this
If one were to break into the larger realm of disabilities and aging, then it becomes a significantly larger amount.
I’m having a harder time thinking of saintly handicapped characters. Duddits from Dreamcatcher?
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Would “but people are really like that” be a convincing argument and justification for the stereotype’s inclusion?
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I kept my examples (of which I feel I had more than enough) limited to wheelchair bound characters.
If one were to break into the larger realm of disabilities and aging, then it becomes a significantly larger amount.
I’m having a harder time thinking of saintly handicapped characters. Duddits from Dreamcatcher
If one were to break into the larger realm of disabilities and aging, then it becomes a significantly larger amount.
I’m having a harder time thinking of saintly handicapped characters. Duddits from Dreamcatcher
Any disabilities (visual/audio/intellectual/mobility) would apply as far as my point was concerned. They only needed to be in an American horror film, a victim of the films villain/monster and deliberately made unlikeable. As stated, on further reflection, they should also be younger (teens or young adult). I don't think there is any question that adultswith disabilities are frequently portrayed as unlikeable.
As for your examples, i didn't know a couple of them, one was Asian and at least two were older characters (I assume Creepshow). And as for Silver Bullet I didn't really know who you meant to be unlikeable. Haim is the hero and pretty much always charming and likeable.
Regarding the sainthood comment, I don't literally mean divine, but that any unpleasant personality quirks which might set the audience against them are sanded off. This was mostly in regards to Stu having issues with marginalized people being saddled with negative characteristics being a bad thing .
I think a good example of what I am talking about here is outside of the horror realm. It's was in the handling of gay characters in the BBC production of Queer as Folk, which dared to fill it's gay positive message with characters who frequently acting morally questionably. This was controversial at the time as some freaked out that it was perpetuating stereotypes of gay promiscuity and reckless behavior. But, as always, in the right hands, this can be transcended to be simply a more human and honest portrayal of elements of this culture. This is one of the reasons it was important
And then america got it's hands on it. And it thought just having a cast of openly gay characters was all that was required. It was enough for there to be just representation . But in doing so, it basically removed the important grit from the original, it's provocations that dared to make gay characters morally complicated and still worthy of recognition regardless. And as a result it made its gay characters ****ing teddy bears for easy consumption by, frankly, predominantly straight audiences. Because they didn't want to drive them away with anything that might curl the toes or challenge sympathies in middle America. Cowardly, reterogressive nonsense.And, I think this is the kind of stereotypes that needs to be bucked, more than fretting if a character who acts more questionably and might challenge the audience in liking them. Because this approach implies general society can like the gays as long as they act pristine and moral and not too sexually or irresponsibly. Thereby leaving all those who are homosexual who don't live up to these standards wondering 'but where am I' in any of this? Am I excluded from this back patting group hug?
Last edited by crumbsroom; 05-23-22 at 02:39 PM.
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Any disabilities (visual/audio/intellectual/mobility) would apply as far as my point was concerned. They only needed to be in an American horror film, a victim of the films villain/monster and deliberately made unlikeable. As stated, on further reflection, they should also be younger (teens or young adult). I don't think there is any question that adultswith disabilities are frequently portrayed as unlikeable.
As for your examples, i didn't know a couple of them, one was Asian and at least two were older characters (I assume Creepshow). And as for Silver Bullet I didn't really know who you meant to be unlikeable. Haim is the hero and pretty much always charming and likeable.
Regarding the sainthood comment, I don't literally mean divine, but that any unpleasant personality quirks which might set the audience against them are sanded off. This was mostly in regards to Stu having issues with marginalized people being saddled with negative characteristics being a bad thing .
I think a good example of what I am talking about here is outside of the horror realm. It's was in the handling of gay characters in the BBC production of Queer as Folk, which dared to fill it's gay positive message with characters who frequently acting morally questionably. This was controversial at the time as some freaked out that it was perpetuating stereotypes of gay promiscuity and reckless behavior. But, as always, in the right hands, this can be transcended to be simply a more human and honest portrayal of elements of this culture. This is one of the reasons it was important
And then america got it's hands on it. And it thought just having a cast of openly gay characters was all that was required. It was enough for there to be just representation . But in doing so, it basically removed the important grit from the original, it's provocations that dared to make gay characters morally complicated and still worthy of recognition regardless. And as a result it made its gay characters ****ing teddy bears for easy consumption by, frankly, predominantly straight audiences. Because they didn't want to drive them away with anything that might curl the toes or challenge sympathies in middle America. Cowardly, reterogressive nonsense.And, I think this is the kind of stereotypes that needs to be bucked, more than fretting if a character who acts more questionably and might challenge the audience in liking them. Because this approach implies general society can like the gays as long as they act pristine and moral and not too sexually or irresponsibly. Thereby leaving all those who are homosexual who don't live up to these standards wondering 'but where am I' in any of this? Am I excluded from this back patting group hug?
As for your examples, i didn't know a couple of them, one was Asian and at least two were older characters (I assume Creepshow). And as for Silver Bullet I didn't really know who you meant to be unlikeable. Haim is the hero and pretty much always charming and likeable.
Regarding the sainthood comment, I don't literally mean divine, but that any unpleasant personality quirks which might set the audience against them are sanded off. This was mostly in regards to Stu having issues with marginalized people being saddled with negative characteristics being a bad thing .
I think a good example of what I am talking about here is outside of the horror realm. It's was in the handling of gay characters in the BBC production of Queer as Folk, which dared to fill it's gay positive message with characters who frequently acting morally questionably. This was controversial at the time as some freaked out that it was perpetuating stereotypes of gay promiscuity and reckless behavior. But, as always, in the right hands, this can be transcended to be simply a more human and honest portrayal of elements of this culture. This is one of the reasons it was important
And then america got it's hands on it. And it thought just having a cast of openly gay characters was all that was required. It was enough for there to be just representation . But in doing so, it basically removed the important grit from the original, it's provocations that dared to make gay characters morally complicated and still worthy of recognition regardless. And as a result it made its gay characters ****ing teddy bears for easy consumption by, frankly, predominantly straight audiences. Because they didn't want to drive them away with anything that might curl the toes or challenge sympathies in middle America. Cowardly, reterogressive nonsense.And, I think this is the kind of stereotypes that needs to be bucked, more than fretting if a character who acts more questionably and might challenge the audience in liking them. Because this approach implies general society can like the gays as long as they act pristine and moral and not too sexually or irresponsibly. Thereby leaving all those who are homosexual who don't live up to these standards wondering 'but where am I' in any of this? Am I excluded from this back patting group hug?
The defense of Franklin would be aligned with claiming Willie Scott being a great character because they were willing to make her a shallow, materialistic, obnoxious shrieking mess. “Haven’t you ever met women like that?” Sure. It doesn’t make them good characters nor sympathetic for the type of film that they’re in.
I’m not invested in the overall argument you’re making because I agree with you in principle. It’s foolish to relegate all portrays to be positive. It denies humanity. However, if I were going to make a film about a black drug dealer, I may want to tread lightly in HOW I explore a negative portrayal of someone marginalized and be mindful of what I’m saying with that character. Otherwise, I’m indulging in the stock, lazy stereotypes.
Franklin isn’t characterized enough to feel like anything more than a whiny, off putting hinderance to his sister. It’s a characterization that is written through a strongly able-bodies lens and it’s why audiences don’t value him. A more subversive thing to do would be to show his determination, intelligence, ingenuity, compassion alongside his dependence and frustration then still chainsaw his ass. That would punch the audience gut without forcing them to slog through an abrasive character.
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Because we are talking about expectations. Generally in the role given to Frankiin, in this kind of film, playing the function he is meant to play, we would easily sympathize and root for him. It is what I expect whenever something like a slasher or Grindhouse film introduces outsider characters, generally nerds, those in wheelchairs, intellectually delayed. There is a gamut of stock characters these films employ for easy sympathy (and yes, they can sometimes lean into not ideal representation).
But Franklin does the opposite of this. It makes the audience struggle to root for him. Some even turn against him to the point of wanting him dead. But for those paying closer attention to his character, there are all sorts of reasons we do ultimately empathize with him, which have been detailed by numerous posters here.
In short, Franklin would normally be peddled for easy sympathy. Instead he is made a difficult character to root for because of his social awkwardness. But as we watch him constantly be left behind and treated like a burden, a window for empathy arises. It's a much more complicated character than you give it credit for when you just say he's annoying and perpetuates easy stereotypes.
Yes, some people probably cheer when his whining is brought to and end. I laughed at that scene when I was a child. But I don't treat these base reactions as some kind of end stop for how we unpack this character. I see them as somewhat understandable but ultimately shitty reactions.
If Franklin was nothing but his disability, I would understand what you are saying. If the burden of his wheelchair was the only reason he was in the movie, I would understand what you are saying. But because you repeatedly deny any nuance in his performance, and you are seemingly only seeing his negative attributes because you seem to refuse any possibility that there is more going on in this performance, I'm not going to agree with you when you claim him as reinforcing stereotypes about the disabled. I think it is flat out wrong (although there are probably some fair strikes you can throw at the character, but no so many you strike him out)
I think ultimately we agree in principal, and if you ever saw the light in why the actor playing the guy is doing a good job, you might start thanking me from saving you from such a not good take as you're showing.
But Franklin does the opposite of this. It makes the audience struggle to root for him. Some even turn against him to the point of wanting him dead. But for those paying closer attention to his character, there are all sorts of reasons we do ultimately empathize with him, which have been detailed by numerous posters here.
In short, Franklin would normally be peddled for easy sympathy. Instead he is made a difficult character to root for because of his social awkwardness. But as we watch him constantly be left behind and treated like a burden, a window for empathy arises. It's a much more complicated character than you give it credit for when you just say he's annoying and perpetuates easy stereotypes.
Yes, some people probably cheer when his whining is brought to and end. I laughed at that scene when I was a child. But I don't treat these base reactions as some kind of end stop for how we unpack this character. I see them as somewhat understandable but ultimately shitty reactions.
If Franklin was nothing but his disability, I would understand what you are saying. If the burden of his wheelchair was the only reason he was in the movie, I would understand what you are saying. But because you repeatedly deny any nuance in his performance, and you are seemingly only seeing his negative attributes because you seem to refuse any possibility that there is more going on in this performance, I'm not going to agree with you when you claim him as reinforcing stereotypes about the disabled. I think it is flat out wrong (although there are probably some fair strikes you can throw at the character, but no so many you strike him out)
I think ultimately we agree in principal, and if you ever saw the light in why the actor playing the guy is doing a good job, you might start thanking me from saving you from such a not good take as you're showing.
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Because we are talking about expectations. Generally in the role given to Frankiin, in this kind of film, playing the function he is meant to play, we would easily sympathize and root for him. It is what I expect whenever something like a slasher or Grindhouse film introduces outsider characters, generally nerds, those in wheelchairs, intellectually delayed. There is a gamut of stock characters these films employ for easy sympathy (and yes, they can sometimes lean into not ideal representation).
But Franklin does the opposite of this. It makes the audience struggle to root for him. Some even turn against him to the point of wanting him dead. But for those paying closer attention to his character, there are all sorts of reasons we do ultimately empathize with him, which have been detailed by numerous posters here.
In short, Franklin would normally be peddled for easy sympathy. Instead he is made a difficult character to root for because of his social awkwardness. But as we watch him constantly be left behind and treated like a burden, a window for empathy arises. It's a much more complicated character than you give it credit for when you just say he's annoying and perpetuates easy stereotypes.
Yes, some people probably cheer when his whining is brought to and end. I laughed at that scene when I was a child. But I don't treat these base reactions as some kind of end stop for how we unpack this character. I see them as somewhat understandable but ultimately shitty reactions.
If Franklin was nothing but his disability, I would understand what you are saying. If the burden of his wheelchair was the only reason he was in the movie, I would understand what you are saying. But because you repeatedly deny any nuance in his performance, and you are seemingly only seeing his negative attributes because you seem to refuse any possibility that there is more going on in this performance, I'm not going to agree with you when you claim him as reinforcing stereotypes about the disabled. I think it is flat out wrong (although there are probably some fair strikes you can throw at the character, but no so many you strike him out)
I think ultimately we agree in principal, and if you ever saw the light in why the actor playing the guy is doing a good job, you might start thanking me from saving you from such a not good take as you're showing.
But Franklin does the opposite of this. It makes the audience struggle to root for him. Some even turn against him to the point of wanting him dead. But for those paying closer attention to his character, there are all sorts of reasons we do ultimately empathize with him, which have been detailed by numerous posters here.
In short, Franklin would normally be peddled for easy sympathy. Instead he is made a difficult character to root for because of his social awkwardness. But as we watch him constantly be left behind and treated like a burden, a window for empathy arises. It's a much more complicated character than you give it credit for when you just say he's annoying and perpetuates easy stereotypes.
Yes, some people probably cheer when his whining is brought to and end. I laughed at that scene when I was a child. But I don't treat these base reactions as some kind of end stop for how we unpack this character. I see them as somewhat understandable but ultimately shitty reactions.
If Franklin was nothing but his disability, I would understand what you are saying. If the burden of his wheelchair was the only reason he was in the movie, I would understand what you are saying. But because you repeatedly deny any nuance in his performance, and you are seemingly only seeing his negative attributes because you seem to refuse any possibility that there is more going on in this performance, I'm not going to agree with you when you claim him as reinforcing stereotypes about the disabled. I think it is flat out wrong (although there are probably some fair strikes you can throw at the character, but no so many you strike him out)
I think ultimately we agree in principal, and if you ever saw the light in why the actor playing the guy is doing a good job, you might start thanking me from saving you from such a not good take as you're showing.
You’re claiming that I’m missing something but you’re overlooking the obvious. Blind men seeing a snake and a tree but not the elephant they’re obviously looking at.
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Blind men seeing a snake and a tree but not the elephant they’re obviously looking at.
(and that wasn't a snake, it was a half-eaten piece of sausage.)
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So now Franklin's an elephant? Not cool, bro.
(and that wasn't a snake, it was a half-eaten piece of sausage.)
(and that wasn't a snake, it was a half-eaten piece of sausage.)
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