Equal Rights for Straw Men

They have feelings too ya know. Who are these tyrants killing their own creations and trying to put the blame on others? Oh, wait though... First I should look at myself before pointing to others. Do I do it too sometimes? I suppose it's a hard pitfall to avoid, but wait there's hope.

What is logic and who needs it? If the Dadaists didn't then why do I? Why don't they teach it in these schools?

When I went to University one of the first classes I had was The History of Western Thought, and about half way through that course we had a class entirely devoted to logic. That was revolutionary for me. My research papers were graded on how well I could establish and defend my position, not on whether I agreed with my professor.

Yoda said one of the funniest things I've ever heard about Straw Men.

So many times it comes up, well every debate on here pretty much. I thought it would be cool if we had a thread devoted to understanding more about logic.

I just googled logic, and I think it explains a lot. I scrolled for a bit seeing nothing whatsoever about logic, but instead all sorts of rap music, merchandise, and twitter accounts. Why does the world disregard logic so much? Doesn't everyone need it to formulate a thought? It's so fundamental yet so few use it or bother to learn anything about it. They argue endlessly for decades when so much could be avoided with a few hours of reading.

I often wonder if there's any hope for the human race.

Why, just the other day an aquaintance of mine said philosophy is the root of all human understanding, but it isn't fundamental to life. I thought that so bizarre. I don't understand these illogical minds, but I have to remember, I too once knew nothing of logic.

There's a verse in the book of Proverbs. Wisdom makes knowledge acceptable. So I think we need to be patient and help each other understand.

So, MoFo's I ask you, why the sensless slaughter of so many young ambitious straw men?

you set 'em up, we knock 'em down

I'm pretty sure everyone's settin' 'em up.

Not in this thread.


Zotis is complaining about a rapper named Logic whom I bet he'd like if he took the time to read his lyrics. Extremely positive dude that doesn't deserve to be part of "Oh look at what happened to LOGIC, it's just RAP and TWITTER now".


As a matter of fact today his track 1-800-273-8255 is making the rounds because it's named after the national suicide prevention hotline, as it tends to each time there's a high profile suicide.


https://genius.com/Logic-1-800-273-8255-lyrics


Honestly, as a musician, he doesn't really do it for me. But he's seriously a wonderful guy, and it's infuriating seeing him used ignorantly.



I tend to stay out of this stuff around here, it's frustrating to read but the times I've gotten involved have not been worth it, but I'm going to get defensive about music.

@Slappydavis, lol, whatever helps you sleep at night. I'm curious though, why did you jump to the assumption that I haven't listened to Logic, why did you project your ignorance onto me, and why didn't you say anything about the actual tooic of the thread? How much have you read about logic (actual logic, not the rapper)?

Any thoughts on Straw Men, like the one you just slaughtered, or any thoughts on projection or logic in general?

That's not how it works, but nice try.

The first question is fair, but I don't really understand the "project your ignorance onto me" part. He didn't say anything ignorant, let alone project same.

I can assure you from numerous interactions that Slappy is very logical.

Logic is useful - but it's not the only way to understand things.

If you want to understand a bowl of jello. All you have to do is crawl in there move around a little bit.

__________________
We are both the source of the problem and the solution, yet we do not see ourselves in this light...

Some Jell-o has fruit
All apples are fruit
Some Jell-o has apples.

I didn't say you haven't listened to logic. I said I think you'd like him if you read his lyrics. That's the specifics game, not very enlightening, right? It's why we shouldn't play the specifics game. It's a boring game, and it's not designed for dialogue.

And I'm serious about that I think you'd like Logic. He's a very positive and conscious rapper, one that also sings about praising God. I think at the very least you'd like him more than most rappers. It's also why I'm defensive, if a rapper like LOGIC can't appease people, no one can.

Basically, when I read your posts, you talk about logic sometimes, but you strike me as more emotional than logical. I actually prefer it when you write like that, if I'm being honest. Because when you switch to talking about logic, it feels like you take on a condescending character. It's my least favorite of the modes you go into. Not intending this as an attack on the actual you, just from what I have encountered on this specific message board; it very well may not be a good representation of you at all, it's just what I have to work with.

So when I read this thread, I'm pretty sure you're trying to piggyback on a joke you thought was funny, and you switch voices between trying to be funny and being serious (which does not exactly inspire hope in me; based on past experiences with that tone if the author feels backed into a corner they can just say whichever part was satire).

But fine. So here you have a section that resembles a syllogism:
This seems like:

A. I just googled logic, and the top results were about rap and not the concept of logic.
B. (assumed connection) google reflects the interests of the general populace.
C. Therefore the world disregards logic.


I'll just ask, do you think that's a compelling argument?



Now, you didn't SPECIFICALLY say B, but if you didn't mean to, it seems implied by the structure of your post. I'm starting with this because I don't have much patience for the "well I didn't actuuuuually say such and such" game. So if that's the defense, then sure. But then you also weren't making much of an argument at all, were you?

In short, if you care about logic, tell me what argument you are making here?

See, I'm torn here. I'm guessing that there's no winning move for me here. If I was a logic grandmaster with an omega-PhD, I doubt you'd pause for even a second to reflect.

I don't think you have an actual purpose here. So I'm torn, because I've studied logic (well, actually, part of the problem with your discussion of logic is that I have no idea which "logic" you are referring to: Symbolic logic? Rationalism? Critical Thinking? Generally, I tend to use "logic" to mean symbolic logic as a rhetorical means) but I also think that logic, in particular, is available to all with or without study; it's one of the best things about logic (and a central part of Meno); I'm torn because maybe talking about studies would give you pause that I'm not some sort of logic hater (though I really agree with the sentiment Sir Toose posted about it being one of many tools to seek understanding), but I'd also be contributing to an attitude I think is misguided. So maybe I should just leave it ambiguous?

Sure, I've got a few. But the most relevant to me right now is the disconnect between how useful logic is, and how aggravating people that mention logic tend to be.


Another one, the disconnect between how humbling logic should be and how doggedly single-minded the people that mention it tend to be.


It's honestly just like economics. Love economics. Hate 2-minute-effort marshallian graphs that run with radical assumptions to unconnected conclusions and tell people it's objective; see, there's a graph!

But what about whataboutery?

Wicker men >>>> straw men
imho

<Nicholas Cage screaming GIF>
"NOT THE FALLACIES! AHHHHH!"

Okay, I did get defensive because I felt criticised. I wasn’t complaining about the rapper Logic though, just making an observation about Google and the interests of the general public.



Yeah pretty much, but I am trying to get a serious discussion going about logic. It’s a topic that fascinates me and I want to learn more about. Yeah I switch from being funny to serious, but these discussions also take place over days. I can’t stay in the same mood day after day. I don’t use satire as an escape though, at least as far as I’m aware. I do find that most people don’t get satire so then I have to explain it after they take it at face value as if I’m being serious. But what’s wrong with switching gears and being funny? I’ve always been of the opinion that you have to be able to laugh. Otherwise life is just too stressful. Even when I’m joking there may be something serious I’m trying to get at.

Well for one thing I am not drawing C based on A and B, but rather pointing out that A and B support my assumption of C which is based on my experience and I’d still hold it without A and B for confirmation of my bias.

I was trying to make an observation, not an argument. I suppose it could be considered an argument, and not a very strong one. In hindsight I’m not proud of it. It was impulsive.

My purpose there was to steer the conversation back on track. I see now that you do know a fair amount about logic, and it sounds like you are better versed in it than I, which is awesome! I saw your posts about logic in the Feminism thread and they were really interesting. I like logic a lot and want to learn more about it as well as put what I’ve learned so far to use.

I suppose when I think of logic I usually associate it more with critical thinking.

Yeah, I think it’s human nature. At least I always struggle with applying things I learn to myself and not just other people. It’s hard not to be arrogant and condescending. I do try not to mention specific logical fallacies when people make them, but rather just focus on the merits and flaws of their arguments even when the other people are name dropping logical fallacies at me. Of course people only see the times I do mention logic and fallacies, they don’t notice the times I avoided mentioning them.

Dang - all the Wicker Man jokes got taken! Because I was going to say whenever I hear Straw Man I think of Nic Cage (or Edward Woodward burning alive... because I'm old enough to remember).

One thing I can never remember is what exactly the Straw Man argument is (there are so many logical "fallacies" that I can never keep them straight).

The straw man argument is basically when you distort the other person's argument to make it easier to attack.

I don't know... I'm reviewing these posts and I'm puzzled by your responses @Slappydavis.

I don't know why you made me feel a bit ashamed, but looking back there's nothing I said that I'm ashamed of.

This is just bogus. That wasn't my logic and I wasn't making that argument at all. I guess I can see how you drew that conclusion, but you're just simply incorrect here.

Here's the full paragraph I said, because you left some out.

You also said this:

Now I want to clear things up. For one thing you need to add to A the rest of the paragraph about all of the decades of endless arguments, and the fact that logic isn't taught in schools. Yeah, see how it's becoming a little bit of a stronger argument now? So, did you straw man me? Isn't this just a case in point? For another thing I never complained about a rapper named Logic. Is that a projection? Maybe I was too quick to say you were projecting your ignorance onto me. I'd be happy to be wrong if someone can explain it to me.

This looks like a straw man to me. I don't know, I'm still trying to learn. If you're the expert then I'd be happy to hear why this isn't a straw man so I can understand the straw man fallacy better.

I find Yoda to be the most logical person here. I see that Slappydavis uses logic a lot, and I can tell now at least that he knows a lot about logic, but I see a lot more flaws in his logic. I do appreciate you taking the time to respond Slappy, and I would like to work things out and come to mutual understanding.

I'm trying to move away from emotional responses to more logical ones. I do want to be less arrogant and condescending. I'm trying to steer away from even mentioning the names of the logical fallacies I think others may be making, and instead just focus on their argument and on responding to it. I think the fallacy fallacy is a tricky one.

Do you try to infer tone from text? If you do I think that's a big taboo.

Not trying to cut off the discussion for others, but just don't want you to wait for a response that isn't coming: not personally interested in the discussion of logic. Discussions about logic are overrated. Discussions about emotions are underrated.


Do want to say 2 quick things about non-logic related things.



I don' think you should be ashamed either.



Have to say, I put a lot of work in trying to communicate my tone when I write, so I'm sad to read this. I think it's easy to infer my tone was defensive when I was talking about Logic, and I want people to.


You're not wrong that it's harder to infer tone from text than in person, but I wouldn't call it taboo.

Re: inference of tone through text.
That's a difficult line to straddle for me, especially when familiar with one's personality and the perceived tone of textual communication shifts from that. My instinct is to jump to a negative assumption of intent, and I hate that in myself! For me, it's like an eternally sloshing wave of contexts, memories, and assumptions all competing to control my impulse. Of course that's with most anything, I guess. =\

Jump to 1:30 for a wonderful visual demonstration of my head at any given moment

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