Donald Trump for President?

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If the democracy thing goes on a bit I might suggest a spin off.

Meanwhile, gotta love CNN for finally fact-checking Trump in its on screen graphics:



Here's Trump at his rally (all emphasis added):
"[She] made a speech, she's making another one tomorrow, and they sent me a copy of the speech," he told a crowd of supporters Wednesday. "And it was such lies about my foreign policy, that they said I want Japan to get nuclear weapons. Give me a break."
Here's Trump in April:
"It's not like, gee whiz, nobody has them. So, North Korea has nukes. Japan has a problem with that. I mean, they have a big problem with that. Maybe they would in fact be better off if they defend themselves from North Korea," the billionaire said.

"With nukes?" the Fox anchor pressed.

"Including with nukes, yes, including with nukes," Trump answered.
Here he is saying the same thing in March:
"You have so many countries already — China, Pakistan, you have so many countries, Russia — you have so many countries right now that have them," he said. "Now, wouldn't you rather, in a certain sense, have Japan have nuclear weapons when North Korea has nuclear weapons?"
I've lost count of how many times Trump's said "I never said that" to something we have him on tape saying.



Yoda does not apply the same level of scrutiny to other candidates as he does Trump.

Nothing from him covering the scandals of the Clinton Foundation over the years, which I'm sure he'd have been more focused on if one of his Republican candidates had gotten the nomination instead of Trump.

Yoda is leading a one-sided narrative on this thread and on his website, of the 2016 presidential race. I want to get that in to this uneven thread, there's always more than one side to the story and I encourage everyone to always consider more than one side of every story. Especially when what Yoda is saying reflects and echoes the views of the mainstream national media



But this is a thread about Trump? He's concentrating on the point/topic of this thread and responding to things other people (including yourself) has said about Trump. How is this wrong or a one sided narrative? Start a thread on Clinton and her scandal (if there aren't already stuff about it) and I'm fairly sure he'll contribute to that thread.

Also, reflecting the mainstream media isn't, in and of itself, a bad thing. The mainstream media will tell you that IS is an evil, murderous set of bastards. Is that wrong or incorrect?
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Yoda does not apply the same level of scrutiny to other candidates as he does Trump.
Yes I do, but those other candidates aren't representing my party, dude. And my disagreements with them are broad and philosophical, not manifested every day by new absurd contradictions. Though since you mentioned it, I've already started another post for the Clinton thread.

But let's say this were true: that would explain Trump's actions...how? Let's pretend he's the only person in the world I'd ever scrutinized: how would that reconcile his contradictory statements or incoherent positions? And if I start posting about Clinton more, then what's the excuse?

I want to get that in to this uneven thread, there's always more than one side to the story and I encourage everyone to always consider more than one side of every story.
Like what? I'm giving you direct quotes from Trump. What's the other side to those?

As long as Trump does this stuff, I'm going to point it out. If you want me to stop, tell me why it's wrong. Which can't be done with vague references to "the media" or "the other side" that never get into specifics.



Nostro, you're free to post why you support Trump. Yoda has asked you to explain your reasons many times. I haven't seen many post from the three Trump supporters that give any reasons why Trump would make a good president. But no one is curtailed in making post that support Trump, which tells me Yoda is being fair.



Because he cant defend him! Not out of cowardice or ineptitude, but because theres truly no defense. Well, unless hes gonna lie and thatll get exposed. Nostro is gonna vote who he likes. He probably thinks Trumps crooked like the rest of the world, but believes & hopes Trump will do good for 4-8 years. One of those "Oh why the hell not?" deals. Am I close Nostro?

Im kind of in the same boat with Bernie Sanders but difference is hes not a lying inept overrated camera-whore.



Inglis's Avatar
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It's amazing the coverage where I live about Trump. Parliament Journalists where I live they're astounded he is running for the most influential job in the world. Sometimes I laugh with Trump comments, he's a guy at a club and eventually the owner has to boost him out for 3 years.



But this is a thread about Trump? He's concentrating on the point/topic of this thread and responding to things other people (including yourself) has said about Trump. How is this wrong or a one sided narrative? Start a thread on Clinton and her scandal (if there aren't already stuff about it) and I'm fairly sure he'll contribute to that thread.
Mainly I reason that if Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio had gotten the Republican nomination, Yoda would have shifted his attention to Hillary Clinton. Since that didn't happen, and Trump buried all sixteen of the other candidates, it's become more of a spite thing. He won. He's crushed the election season so far, set the record for most primary votes in the history of the political party in which he is running. Yet if you read this thread, you'd never know that. Trump is setting ALL-TIME records.

Also, reflecting the mainstream media isn't, in and of itself, a bad thing. The mainstream media will tell you that IS is an evil, murderous set of bastards. Is that wrong or incorrect?
The mainstream media is at its lowest trust rating~ link. Just 6% of Americans trust the mainstream media because they've seen them misrepresent and twist reality. The important example I see is the unemployment figures the media and the American government try to push. The government/media has been pushing a 5% unemployment rate in the U.S., when the reality is much higher than that. Fact check states~

~ To be officially 'unemployed' by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a person without a job must have tried to find employment in the four weeks before the BLS survey is taken. ~

That means if a person continually gets rejected from work, and goes a month without applying again they are counted as employed. WTF? So when a person can't get a job and throws up their hands for one month, the system counts them as employed.

Our western civilization is seriously messed up right now- that includes Europe bigtime, yet the reality is framed differently by the mainstream media and the government. Trump has the bravery to present the picture evidently many are experiencing, backed up by his record-setting poll results. And in return he's been dumped on more than any candidate ever, which honestly is expected, to me. It's never easy to take on the those who control the information that is presented to the people.




Inglis's Avatar
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Where I live - a senior politician said "Trump is barking mad"



Since that didn't happen, and Trump buried all sixteen of the other candidates, it's become more of a spite thing. He won. He's crushed the election season so far, set the record for most primary votes in the history of the political party in which he is running. Yet if you read this thread, you'd never know that. Trump is setting ALL-TIME records.
And that defends everything he does? Ad populum fallacy.

The mainstream media is at its lowest trust rating~ link. Just 6% of Americans trust the mainstream media because they've seen them misrepresent and twist reality.
Interesting. I wonder which candidate of the three that are still running gets the most positive press from the untrustworthy mainstream media?

http://www.vox.com/2016/4/15/1141016...bernie-sanders

Oh...

Trump has the bravery to present the picture evidently many are experiencing, backed up by his record-setting poll results. And in return he's been dumped on more than any candidate ever, which honestly is expected, to me. It's never easy to take on the those who control the information that is presented to the people.
The statistics show otherwise.

Also, I don't see what's "brave" about telling people that they are getting screwed by higher forces. People love to hear that. It's standard populism.

I would much prefer a candidate who is willing to defend (initially) unpopular, but well argumented ideas that are necessary to build a greater future. I especially find Trump lacking when it comes to the "well argumented" aspect.
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Mainly I reason that if Ted Cruz or Marco Rubio had gotten the Republican nomination, Yoda would have shifted his attention to Hillary Clinton.
Probably, because I doubt either of them would be blatantly contradicting themselves every other day.

it's become more of a spite thing.
It's more of a principles thing. And I could just as easily say his supporters are just being stubborn. But that, like the comment above, would be an example of the ad hominem fallacy. I could be doing this completely out of spite, or even because I'd been paid to do it, and it still wouldn't explain or defend what he's said. Which makes all this the argumentative equivalent of "Hey! Look over there!"

The mainstream media is at its lowest trust rating~ link. Just 6% of Americans trust the mainstream media because they've seen them misrepresent and twist reality. The important example I see is the unemployment figures the media and the American government try to push. The government/media has been pushing a 5% unemployment rate in the U.S., when the reality is much higher than that. Fact check states~

~ To be officially 'unemployed' by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a person without a job must have tried to find employment in the four weeks before the BLS survey is taken. ~

That means if a person continually gets rejected from work, and goes a month without applying again they are counted as employed. WTF? So when a person can't get a job and throws up their hands for one month, the system counts them as employed.
See, this is what an argument looks like. This is a perfectly sound example of what "the other side" is in a situation where something misleading is being presented. So where's this for the stuff Trump's been saying?

It's never easy to take on the those who control the information that is presented to the people.
Yeah, again: direct quotes from Trump. Sometimes in videos he released himself. Is "the media" making him contradict himself?



Cob and Yoda have, pretty much, answered your reply to me, Nostromo.

Yes, there's plenty of people "dumping" on Trump, but much of that comes from what he's said. I'd go so far as to say that they're the ones holding him to the standards of a presidential candidate. Hell, I'd expect people to be called on this kind of stuff in any public election.

If this guy was on Big Brother and had been arguing that he'd never said something to person A, when we'd seen him do it, how do you think he'd be portrayed? If he'd consistently said he'd done/not done things which were easily proved otherwise, how do you think he'd be portrayed?

I've said a couple of times in this thread that he's being held to the standards of a reality TV star and not a presidential candidate and that's why he's still viable. It seems that, to a degree, I was wrong. I think he's been held to the standards of Donald Trump which, it would appear, are even lower than a BB contestant.

As for the rest, I'm not telling you that the mainstream media is trustworthy or is trusted. Neither am I telling you that the government are doing a good job, not wasting money, massaging figures or lying to you in a hundred different ways. I will tell you that that won't change whether Trump is in office or not, though.



Another daily warning sign article which will be ignored...

Trump Could Threaten U.S. Rule of Law, Scholars Say

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politi...2y7?li=BBnb7Kz

WASHINGTON — Donald J. Trump’s blustery attacks on the press, complaints about the judicial system and bold claims of presidential power collectively sketch out a constitutional worldview that shows contempt for the First Amendment, the separation of powers and the rule of law, legal experts across the political spectrum say.

Even as much of the Republican political establishment lines up behind its presumptive nominee, many conservative and libertarian legal scholars warn that electing Mr. Trump is a recipe for a constitutional crisis.

“Who knows what Donald Trump with a pen and phone would do?” asked Ilya Shapiro, a lawyer with the libertarian Cato Institute.

With five months to go before Election Day, Mr. Trump has already said he would “loosen” libel laws to make it easier to sue news organizations. He has threatened to sic federal regulators on his critics. He has encouraged rough treatment of demonstrators.

His proposal to bar Muslims from entry into the country tests the Constitution’s guarantees of religious freedom, due process and equal protection.

And, in what was a tipping point for some, he attacked Judge Gonzalo P. Curiel of the Federal District Court in San Diego, who is overseeing two class actions against Trump University.

Mr. Trump accused the judge of bias, falsely said he was Mexican and seemed to issue a threat.

“They ought to look into Judge Curiel, because what Judge Curiel is doing is a total disgrace,” Mr. Trump said. “O.K.? But we will come back in November. Wouldn’t that be wild if I am president and come back and do a civil case?”

David Post, a retired law professor who now writes for the Volokh Conspiracy, a conservative-leaning law blog, said those comments had crossed a line.

“This is how authoritarianism starts, with a president who does not respect the judiciary,” Mr. Post said. “You can criticize the judicial system, you can criticize individual cases, you can criticize individual judges. But the president has to be clear that the law is the law and that he enforces the law. That is his constitutional obligation.”

“If he is signaling that that is not his position, that’s a very serious constitutional problem,” Mr. Post said.


Beyond the attack on judicial independence is a broader question of Mr. Trump’s commitment to the separation of powers and to the principles of federalism enshrined in the Constitution. Randy E. Barnett, a law professor at Georgetown and an architect of the first major challenge to President Obama’s health care law, said he had grave doubts on both fronts.

“You would like a president with some idea about constitutional limits on presidential powers, on congressional powers, on federal powers,” Professor Barnett said, “and I doubt he has any awareness of such limits.”

Republican leaders say they are confident that Mr. Trump would respect the rule of law if elected. “He’ll have a White House counsel,” Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the majority leader, told Hugh Hewitt, the radio host, on Monday. “There will be others who point out there’s certain things you can do and you can’t do.”

Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona, who has become a reluctant supporter of Mr. Trump, said he did not believe that the nation would be in danger under his presidency.

“I still believe we have the institutions of government that would restrain someone who seeks to exceed their constitutional obligations,” Mr. McCain said. “We have a Congress. We have the Supreme Court. We’re not Romania.”

“Our institutions, including the press, are still strong enough to prevent” unconstitutional acts, he said.

Mr. Post said that view was too sanguine, given the executive branch’s practical primacy. “The president has all the power with respect to enforcing the law,” he said. “There’s only one of those three branches that actually has the guns in its hands, and that’s the executive.”

Republican officials have criticized Mr. Obama for what they have called his unconstitutional expansion of executive power. But some legal scholars who share that view say the problem under a President Trump would be worse.

“I don’t think he cares about separation of powers at all,” said Richard Epstein, a fellow at the Hoover Institution who also teaches at New York University and the University of Chicago.

President George W. Bush “often went beyond what he should have done,” Professor Epstein said. “I think Obama’s been much worse on that issue pretty consistently, and his underlings have been even more so. But I think Trump doesn’t even think there’s an issue to worry about. He just simply says whatever I want to do I will do.”

Mr. Trump has boasted that he will use Mr. Obama’s actions as precedent for his own expansive assertions of executive power.

“He’s led the way, to be honest with you,” he said in January on “Meet the Press,” referring to Mr. Obama’s program to spare millions of immigrants in the country unlawfully from deportation. “But I’m going to use them much better, and they’re going to serve a much better purpose than what he’s done.”

But Mr. Post said there was a difference between Mr. Obama’s view of executive power and that of Mr. Trump. “Whatever you think of Obama’s position on immigration, he is willing to submit to the courts,” he said. “There is no suggestion that he will disobey if the courts rule against him.”

Several law professors said they were less sure about Mr. Trump, citing the actions of another populist, President Andrew Jackson, who refused to enforce an 1832 Supreme Court decision arising from a clash between Georgia and the Cherokee Nation.

“I can easily see a situation in which he would take the Andrew Jackson line,” Professor Epstein said, referring to a probably apocryphal comment attributed to Jackson about Chief Justice John Marshall: “John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it.”

There are other precedents, said John C. Yoo, a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley, who took an expansive view of executive power as a lawyer in the Bush administration. “The only two other presidents I can think of who were so hostile to judges on an individual level and to the judiciary as a whole would be Thomas Jefferson and Franklin Roosevelt,” he said.

Both of those presidents chafed at what they saw as excessive judicial power. “But they weren’t doing it because they had cases before those judges as individuals,” Professor Yoo said. “They had legitimate separation-of-powers fights between the presidency and the judiciary. Trump is lashing out because he has a lawsuit in a private capacity, which is much more disturbing.”

Other legal scholars said they were worried about Mr. Trump’s commitment to the First Amendment. He has taken particular aim at The Washington Post and its owner, Jeff Bezos, the founder of Amazon.

“He owns Amazon,” Mr. Trump said in February. “He wants political influence so Amazon will benefit from it. That’s not right. And believe me, if I become president, oh do they have problems. They’re going to have such problems.”

More generally, Mr. Trump has discussed revising libel laws to make it easier to sue over critical coverage.

“I’m going to open up our libel laws so when they write purposely negative and horrible and false articles, we can sue them and win lots of money,” Mr. Trump said in February. “We’re going to open up those libel laws. So when The New York Times writes a hit piece which is a total disgrace or when The Washington Post, which is there for other reasons, writes a hit piece, we can sue them and win money instead of having no chance of winning because they’re totally protected.”

On one hand, Mr. Trump seemed to misunderstand the scope of presidential power. Libel is a state-law tort constrained by First Amendment principles, and a president’s views do not figure in its application.

On the other hand, said Ilya Somin, a law professor at George Mason University, Mr. Trump’s comments betrayed a troubling disregard for free expression.

“There are very few serious constitutional thinkers who believe public figures should be able to use libel as indiscriminately as Trump seems to think they should,” Professor Somin said. “He poses a serious threat to the press and the First Amendment.”

Many of Mr. Trump’s statements about legal issues were extemporaneous and resist conventional legal analysis. Some seemed to betray ignorance of fundamental legal concepts, as when he said in a debate that Senator Ted Cruz of Texas had criticized Mr. Trump’s sister, a federal appeals court judge, “for signing a certain bill,” adding for good measure that Justice Samuel A. Alito Jr., while still an appeals court judge, had also “signed that bill.”

But bills are legislative rather than judicial documents. And, as it happened, Judge Alito had not joined the opinion in question.

Asked on “Good Morning America” in March about whom he would name to the Supreme Court, Mr. Trump said he would “probably appoint people that would look very seriously at” Hillary Clinton’s “email disaster because it’s criminal activity.” In the constitutional structure, however, Supreme Court justices are neither investigators nor prosecutors.

When Mr. Trump recently released a list of his potential Supreme Court nominees, conservative and libertarian scholars were heartened, but only to a point.

“It was a tremendous list, a great list,” said Mr. Shapiro, from the Cato Institute. “Who knows how much you can trust the list?”



GOP leaders dump on Trump judge comments, reconsider endorsements

The Republican primaries end Tuesday with an embattled Donald Trump under pressure to tone down his rhetoric, including House Speaker Paul Ryan's statement that the businessman's attacks on a federal judge amount to "textbook racism."

Trump's claims that a federal judge is biased because of "Mexican heritage" have been likened to Joe McCarthy-like Communist witch hunts, and have prompted pressure on Republican leaders to pull their support of the New York businessman.

"Claiming a person can't do their job because of their race is sort of like the textbook definition of a racist comment," Ryan told reporters Tuesday. "If you say something that's wrong I think the mature and responsible thing is to acknowledge it."

Still, the Wisconsin Republican said Trump is a better bet than Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton (that's a lie), and "I think if we go into the fall as a divided party, we are doomed to lose."

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politi...vmx?li=BBnb7Kz



Nostro, you're free to post why you support Trump. Yoda has asked you to explain your reasons many times. I haven't seen many post from the three Trump supporters that give any reasons why Trump would make a good president. But no one is curtailed in making post that support Trump, which tells me Yoda is being fair.
The point is can Trump supporters come up with justified comments as to why they support Trump for President! I can understand if people give valid points but I haven't met a singleTrump supporter who can give a reasonable answer as to why Mr Trump deserves to be president...



As for the rest, I'm not telling you that the mainstream media is trustworthy or is trusted. Neither am I telling you that the government are doing a good job, not wasting money, massaging figures or lying to you in a hundred different ways. I will tell you that that won't change whether Trump is in office or not, though.
It's even less likely to change with Hillary, as she represents the existing condition of American politics more than likely any other possible candidate. Also not seeing how someone can be certain Trump will not bring about reform, especially since those same people say his ideas are radical and make him dangerous. Maybe it's the same kind of certainty that claimed TRUMP WILL NOT BECOME THE REPUBLICAN NOMINEE, and that kind of thing



They're not mutually exclusive: "reform" isn't a synonym for "change." He can do all sorts of dangerous or radical things that don't rein in the debt, for example. Case in point: he's been steadily walking back his original debt promises.