The Veg*nism Thread

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Hullo! I was surprised to find out that there are more than a couple people on veg*n diets around here so I decided to start a thread. There appears to be one other thread on the topic, but it's literally 10 years old and I think I can frame it in a more straightforward and approachable manner.



~ INTRODUCTION ~

This thread is for the discussion of topics related to veg*nism. Given it's divisive nature and the fact that it frequently drifts into the controversial realm of ethics, I welcome friendly debate and discussion. You've been warned, your positions are likely to be challenged so you'd best be prepared to defend them calmly and with mutual regard for intellectual honesty. If you can't do that, stay out of this thread.

What is NOT welcome is antagonistic comments like "I just ate a burger and it was SOOOOO GOOOOOD". You're just trolling and that doesn't move the discussion. Cut that sh*t out.

As for myself, I've been vegetarian my whole life, have been vegan for many years (I forget how long), and would even consider myself freegan insofar as people are capable of handling that sort of discussion.

Veggie newbs are probably going to see a lot of words they don't recognize or fully understand so below I'm going to list them and their popularly accepted definitions as well as some documentaries for reference if you would like to learn more.

~ LEXICON ~
Common Terminology:

Veg*n: Someone who is vegetarian or vegan.

Vegetarian: Someone who doesn't eat the meat or flesh of animals. This can be for moral, health, religious, or environmental reasons. Further reading >>>

Lacto-Vegetarian: Vegetarians who drink milk.
Ovo-Vegetarian: Vegetarians who eat eggs.

Animals: Anything that is taxonomically defined under the kingdom, Animalia. This includes fish AND humans.

Non-Humans: Animals, excluding humans.

Vegan (dietary): Someone who doesn't eat animal products, this includes any food derived from animals including dairy (milk/cream/butter/cheese/mayo/eggs/etc). This can be for health, religious, or environmental reasons.

Vegan (ethical): Someone who doesn't consume animal products in any form, this includes anything produced through animal exploitation including food (honey/beeswax/etc), clothing (leather/wool/silk/etc), entertainment (zoos/riding/fighting/etc), scientific research, and pets. This is strictly for moral reasons. Veganism is traditionally defined as:

...a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals...
Veganism is a form of vegetarianism. Further reading >>>

Freegan: Someone who reduces waste by consuming products that have been discarded or are otherwise isolated from the chain of supply and demand. This can be for environmental or anti-consumerist reasons.

Freeganism is a form of veganism ("cheating" addressed here). Further reading >>>

Carnist (meat eater): Someone who consumes non-human animal products and encourages acceptance of the consumption of non-human animal products. Further reading >>>

Speciesism: A prejudicial bias in favor of the interests of one's own species at the expense of another. Compare racism and sexism. Carnism is a form of speciesism. Further reading >>>

Other Terminology:

Pescetarian: Someone who doesn't eat the meat or flesh of animals, but makes an exception for seafood. While lacto- and ovo-vegetarians are a permanent subject of debate, pescetarians ARE NOT vegetarians.
Fruitarian: Someone who only eats fruits with the possible exception of seeds or nuts.
Raw Foodist: Someone who only eats uncooked and unprocessed raw foods.

Plant-Based Person: Someone who only eats food derived from plants.
Veganarchist: A pretty cool person. Further reading >>>

~ ARGUMENTS ~

Before you present any arguments against veg*nism, please check your questions here. But You Kill Ants by John Waddell concisely addresses 101 of the most common arguments made against veg*nism. Your answer is almost certainly there.



~ FOR YOUR INFORMATION ~

Here are a couple interesting facts to chew over:

+ These animals just died.
+ Veg*ns are not synonymous with PETA (a lot of us hate PETA).
+ The most common health concern for veg*ns is Vitamin B12, not Protein.
+ Vegetarians commonly consume gelatin (some candies), rennet (some cheeses), and bone char (some sugars) which are produced by killing animals.
+ Vegans should avoid products with the following ingredients (* indicates there are limited exceptions): albumen,
allantoin, bone char, bone phosphate, bonito, butter, cane sugar*, carmine, casein, cochineal, confectioner's glaze, cream, dashi*, diglycerides*, elastin, emu oil, gelatin, honey, inosinate, isinglass, keratin, l-cysteine, lactic acid*, lanolin, lard, leather, monoglycerides*, prawn, rennet*, retinol*, shellac, silk, sodium tallowate, squalene, suede, tallow, whey, wool, and yellow grease. This list is subject to change.

~ PODCASTS ~

Gary Francione's Abolitionist Approach
Colleen Patrick-Goudreau's Food For Thought


~ DOCUMENTARIES ~
(Click to watch on YouTube)




(I know there are other documentaries on the subject, I will expand the list as I see them.)

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"Well, at least your intentions behind the UTTERLY DEVASTATING FAULTS IN YOUR LOGIC are good." - Captain Steel
Movies / Anime / Ultimate Showdown / Veg*nism / Action 2015



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Oldboy 2: Youngman
If you say so, but it does alienate people who will potentially bite at what you have to say, like me. I can't stand PETA.



If you say so, but it does alienate people who will potentially bite at what you have to say, like me. I can't stand PETA.
What????? You actually hate something?



Vegan (ethical): Someone who doesn't consume animal products in any form, this includes anything produced through animal exploitation including food (honey/beeswax/etc), clothing (leather/wool/silk/etc), entertainment (zoos/circuses/fighting/etc), scientific research, and pets. This is strictly for moral reasons.
And the keeping of pets is inherently unethical because... ?



I'd like to make a distinction that is clear for those in the department of philosophy, but not to most vegan and I think it solidifies even more our position.

There is an important distinction between environmental ethics and animal ethics.

The first considers species, the well being of the eco system and is indifferent toward the individual animal death, it doesn't say it is good to kill animal, it just doesn't answer that question because it is not the subject of environmental ethics

The second considers individual animal death, it argues for the immorality not for the planet, but for the act itself of inflincting pain or death toward an other sentient being.

I think both environmental ethics and anmal ethics have VERY compeling arguments, but lets say that for a reason I ignore you think animals don't have any moral consideration because I admit ethics isn't scientific, it's not a fact (even though I'm pretty sure defending such a claim would lead to inconsistencies toward other moral judgment). Then you would still have to answer to environmental ethics that bases itself on facts.

The only way you can answer environmental ethics (the fact that factury farming is terrible for the planet) is
A) that you hunt all your meat
B) that you admit the fact it's bad for the planet, but that we have no obligation to respect the planet (which would be hard to defend)

Also, for those who reject animal ethics there are no obligations to be 100% vegan since it's not for the animals that you do it, but for the planet. However, since factory farming hurts the environment massively there is a need to reduce all animal products, not to be a strict vegan, but to tend toward that ideal.
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If you say so, but it does alienate people who will potentially bite at what you have to say, like me. I can't stand PETA.
I can't stand Hitler, but he was a better artist than most people.



And the keeping of pets is inherently unethical because... ?
Personally I don't have any ethical problem with having pets, but I'm a consequentialist I judge morality with the consequences. And I'd say that the live of a cat is better with a loving ''master'' I don't like this term, I consider my cat to be more of a friend then anything else, then in a shelter.

People who have a problem with it would probably say that it is wrong that a sentient being is the property of an other one.



And the keeping of pets is inherently unethical because... ?
Conceptually, if the term "pet", to you, is an actual companion and not the practical equivalent of a slave or table lamp, then it isn't, the term does carry that baggage though which you should be aware of.

As far as the INDUSTRY is concerned, I'm sure you can imagine the issues involved with financially supporting puppy mills and exotic pet shops.

Originally Posted by Pussy Galore
lets say that for a reason I ignore you think animals don't have any moral consideration because I admit ethics isn't scientific, it's not a fact
Which, incidentally, I would contest. Besides which I largely agree.



Oldboy 2: Youngman
I don't consider myself the "master" of my cat, and don't consider him my "property". He's someone my family gave a home to, and we feed and love him. He basically does whatever the hell he wants, too.

Not sure why anyone would consider that a bad thing.



Im a vegetarian! Would love to become a vegan but right now im finding it hard enough to find food for vegetarians there just not a whole lot out there yet (atleast here) unless you make the from scratch youreself,and i cant cook.

Also the reason im vegetarian is because of the animals- giving up meat was alot easier than i thought actually,
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Im a vegetarian! Would love to become a vegan but right now im finding it hard enough to find food for vegetarians there just not a whole lot out there yet (atleast here) unless you make the from scratch youreself,and i cant cook.
I can't cook for ****.

I can boil water. And I've figured out how to make vegan pancakes, but that's about the extent of my skillset. Just shop smart.



..I welcome friendly debate and discussion. You've been warned, your positions are likely to be challenged so you'd best be prepared to defend them calmly and with mutual regard for intellectual honesty. If you can't do that, stay out of this thread...
Coming from Mr Argumentative, that's down right funny. I guess you never heard of the golden rule? OK whatever, carry on.