Omni's Random Video Noise

WHY'D I WATCH IT?
WHAT'D I THINK? *SPOILERS*

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"Well, at least your intentions behind the UTTERLY DEVASTATING FAULTS IN YOUR LOGIC are good." - Captain Steel

What movie is next?

Chaaaaaaaasing Amy.

WHY'D I WATCH IT?

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I think she's kinda crazy. Joey Lauren Adams, AKA Alyssa Jones, AKA Nasally Voice. I had a big problem with her the first time I saw the movie. You're right about how bitchy she was to freak out at Holden (Ben Affleck) when he expresses his feelings to her.... and then she just runs back to him and wants him.

To me, it looks like she's just trying to get out of the rain. Like, she screams at him, she goes nuts, "HOW DARE YOU! I'M GAY!" -- then she runs away from him and proceeds to hitchhike.... then she realizes, oh crap, I'm terrible at hitchhiking and I'm stuck in the rain.... so she decides to stop the lesbian crap for the time being and runs over to Ben Affleck's arms. "TAKE ME! TAKE ME NOW! Get me out of the rain." She just needs a ride so she won't be caught in the rain.

I feel for Holden (Ben Affleck) the most, though. I completely understand why her sexual past bothers him. I think the movie's a tragic story for Holden and for Holden's relationship with his friend, Banky (Jason Lee). For some reason, what Alyssa does with Holden breaks up the Holden/Banky comic book duo. She's like the Yoko Ono to their Beatles. Now you may not agree with me about all I'm saying, but that's how I feel about it.

In Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, Banky (Jason Lee) and the black gay guy from this movie... are seen together. TOGETHER. As in, they're a gay couple now.

But confusingly, I've heard Kevin Smith apparently say that Banky isn't gay. I think he is, though. Or bi, at least, or something. I get a sense from Chasing Amy that Banky has secret feelings for Holden (Ben Affleck). He may not want to admit them... but I think they're there... and I think he's jealous of Alyssa having Holden. I think Holden's right -- Banky does have feelings for him.

I see Chasing Amy as a sad, tragic, non-traditional romance. A lot of people think the message of the movie is, "You shouldn't judge people based on their past behavior." I think that's all fluff. A cutesy, easy explanation for everything. Holden loves Alyssa, but he's bothered by all the sh*t she's done, and the way she acts. Forget the sex stuff she's done -- the way she acted in that rain scene is evidence, I feel, that she's not all right in other areas. She's a loon. But he loves her anyway. I think their breakup is all her fault. When she smacks him at the end and leaves.... ridiculous. Holden's trying his best to work through his issues with her. He wants to be with her, but she won't give him a chance. I think she's probably just not comfortable trying to be straight. We see at the end that she's back with a new woman. He's uncomfortable with her, she's uncomfortable with him, and men in general. But I think he actually does try to work things out with her... just as she tried to work things out by being in a relationship with him since he was crazy about her. It wasn't her that made the first move -- it was him.

I only don't agree with the understanding Holden part. It's long past happened and it's not really as if she were lying to his face about it.

And even if she was, so what? What can he do about it now? It doesn't and shouldn't affect them. Silent Bob makes the most sense when he blames it on insecurity. No better rationalization is offered.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity

In Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, Banky (Jason Lee) and the black gay guy from this movie... are seen together. TOGETHER. As in, they're a gay couple now.

Oh REALLY? I've seen that movie, but don't remember that at all. It's kinda cool to see that sort of background continuity.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity

But confusingly, I've heard Kevin Smith apparently say that Banky isn't gay. I think he is, though. Or bi, at least, or something. I get a sense from Chasing Amy that Banky has secret feelings for Holden (Ben Affleck). He may not want to admit them... but I think they're there... and I think he's jealous of Alyssa having Holden. I think Holden's right -- Banky does have feelings for him.

Seemed confirmed when he agrees to the threesome.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity

I see Chasing Amy as a sad, tragic, non-traditional romance.

That's Harold and Maude in my book.

Originally Posted by Sexy Celebrity

A lot of people think the message of the movie is, "You shouldn't judge people based on their past behavior." I think that's all fluff.

Supposedly that was sort of the concept that inspired Kevin Smith to make it.

I'll take that as vote.

.... Alyssa's not really wrong by not telling Holden about her sexual past with men. As she said during a freakout, she didn't tell him because Holden thinking he was her first man ... made him feel special.

But why should Holden be wrong for being uneasy about what she's done? Looking at Holden as if he's so terrible for being freaked out by her many secret sexual escapades in the past... kinda feels to me like you're saying, GET OVER IT! It's sex and sex should always be excused, no matter how much sex someone has had.

I'm saying -- that's not true. I think finding out your girlfriend or boyfriend used to be a slut can be grounds for being upset. Why not? It says something about that person and it could even predict future behavior -- what if she gets the urge to be an "experimental girl" while in a monogamous relationship with me? It's a red flag. Holden was getting red flags from Alyssa.

But the movie - and I guess Kevin Smith - is trying to push an "accept all the differences between you and your lover" kind of message. And that's OKAY -- that's an interesting message to think about -- things between Holden and Alyssa could have worked out if he hadn't freaked out -- BUT -- Holden freaked out, and I don't think it's wrong that he did. I think it's understandable. Banky freaked out, too. Banky freaked out about Alyssa's past, worried she was diseased. Holden wasn't alone here. There's reasons to be concerned about someone's sexual past. It shouldn't be 100% excused all the time. The movie may be trying to convey that particular message, but I don't agree with it.

In theory it's cool, but I don't personally like it. I think Banky and the black gay guy (Hooper) are a terrible couple. It upsets me. It makes Chasing Amy even more upsetting. I'd rather see Banky with Holden.

If Banky's in love with Holden.... Hooper is just so wildly different from Holden. It makes me feel like Banky's not getting something he needed. He doesn't have the right kind of man. I don't buy it. I think it's just another careless thing Kevin Smith tossed in.

Yep.

As in one red flag that evidently shocked him because it isn't substantiated by her regular behavior. Honestly this whole issue feeds to into a matter of paranoia that I feel is generally destructive in these kinds of relationships. "What if she gets the urge to be an 'experimental girl'" presumes to place value on the concept of monogamy itself which is something I've never really bought into.

There's a degree of common sense involved, but to a large extent it drills into a very restrictive and possessive idea of what a romantic relationship should be.

That's what I call Monogamy Syndrome in movies. It's a culturally validated plot device for creating conflict.

Seems like it'd be the canon shipping.

Like that entire character.

Yes, but polygamy or polyamory -- whatever it is you seem to be into -- is your own personal way of seeing the world/looking at relationships. And while it may be true that humans are naturally not very monogamous creatures.... monogamy is still widely practiced and accepted. It's going to be depicted in films whether you like it or not. You can go watch movies with poly relationships, if you want, but that doesn't mean it has to be enforced everywhere. Nor do your ideas about sex and all that.

Frankly, you're almost sounding as stubborn as transgender people when it comes to your beliefs. Which doesn't surprise me since you did tell me that I needed to get over my idea that men and women should have separate bathrooms -- since you seem to believe we all should be sharing the same restroom. Something I am against.

I wasn't suggesting polygamy be socially enforced at all (and I'm not "into" it either *laughs*), that would bother me as well. The problem is one of them is enforced and monogamy just happens to be it.

It bothers me most because you see all these movies and TV dramas that revolve around this idea, not even necessarily involving infidelity, but few actually attempt to explore where this problem really originates, because "monogamy" seems like throwing in a yellow card, "it's against the rules" so to speak.

That just seems flimsy to me.

Honestly this reminds me of the first and second episode of Death Parade where this very topic was opened up and dissected. It made some fair arguments about it.


It reminded me of that too, but more because we both seem to be in agreement up to a point. You don't want women in a bathroom used by men and you want to be able to hold peoples' sexual pasts against them.

Doesn't click with me, but that's what I'm getting.

WHY'D I WATCH IT?

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I'm not sure I understand. I feel like you're saying if some character in a movie cheats on their lover and they're lover goes, "WE WERE SUPPOSED TO BE MONOGAMOUS!!!", the cheater is unfairly seen as evil, instead of exploring the idea that this person was simply being human and having a moment where their hormones just happened to take over. Is that it? The problem is the idea of monogamy and shaming others is enforced, while exploring the idea that cheating may be natural isn't? Cause I could see your point there.

I just think certain people who are bothered by someone's sexual past have every right to be bothered. If your lover had thousands of lovers in the past and it doesn't bother you, that's OK. But Holden (Ben Affleck) from Chasing Amy should not have to join in with the non-bothered people if he doesn't want to. Just like if a good Christian woman falls in love with a Satanist and she finds out later that he's a Satanist, she shouldn't have to be cool with it.

People leave relationships for countless reasons. Why should a person's sexual history be given a free pass? When we seek employment somewhere, people wanna know where we've worked before. It's the same with relationships -- people wanna know what we've been doing with whom. Where we were at before. If we were at certain "places" -- or maybe at TOO MANY PLACES -- that can signal a wrong match for us. Now, of course, rejecting a person for that kind of reason could be a mistake, but - GASP! - it might not be.

Just trust me on this. I know from experience. I know how there's been a growing movement to "accept everything." It's wrong. It's totally wrong. If you get a red flag, you better take it seriously. You better accept how it's making you feel. Don't listen to what other people believe in. Go with your instincts. Actually, sometimes people can warn you about problems you don't see, too. That's also worth listening to, as well. Just listen to everything that comes up. Don't ignore. Don't ignore yourself.

Uuuuummmm no. I said "not even necessarily involving infidelity", just this idea that relationships these days where "he/she is mine, not yours" or being very guarded about who your significant other spends a lot of time with, it's just terribly possessive and I don't think that's healthy.

Although you're right, I don't think infidelity is very often fairly judged on it's own merits. On one hand I think it can be a supremely stupid thing to do, but then I'm thinking on the movie, Locke, where the guy's wife's just completely inconsolable, refusing to talk, and wants to kick him out of the house for something he did and regretted a long time ago and has since apologized for. That just drives me up the wall.

That's a very strange analogy.

Well, on a surface level: because that should be considered already. If someone's sexual past would bother you for some reason or really ANYTHING including whether they worship Satan or not, it should be gotten out of the way before you start making awkward confessions to them.

I mean, if "sexually adventurous" is not a quality you desire in that person, then why leave that question hanging in the air to cause problems later? Why presume? Why not just say, "Look, I have a need to pry into your sexual history, please tell me how many guys, girls, or non-human animals you've had sex with, in what positions, format, and sexually transmitted diseases you may have accrued in the process"?

Whether that comes off as rude, funny, or totally reasonable then BOOM, issue out of the way.

What gets to me is that this should be any sort of friendship ending thing. Would that information have ruined your friendship with that person? If not, then why should it ruin your intimate relationship?

Holden bothers me particularly because he openly admits that it's not women he's concerned about her having sex with, but men. How is that not a double standard?

Again though, this is an analogy that operates on the idea that you're being interviewed before the job. It wouldn't make much sense for your job to fire you several years into it because they learned you used to steal office supplies or something, right? Not without evidence that you're still doing it.

That's certainly not me.

It can be a burden, but many people are jealous types. Marriage can be a very possessive thing. You have the wife, the house, the car. Toys of your own.

There's a TV show I know of... umm... a man cheats on his new wife. She's the daughter of this woman... who lives with three other women... and all of the women are ready to kill the man for cheating.

"We're gonna drink white wine spritzers with Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan and Marlo Thomas and figure out a way to fry your wandering male behind."

Last time I saw it, I thought -- they're all getting so angry at him, but did they ever stop and wonder about WHY he cheated? I mean, the wife had short, mannish hair and wasn't attractive at all.

Sex, religion, what's the difference? Virgin/slut. Christian/Satanist. You get the picture.

But it isn't always. That's sort of the point. In Chasing Amy, they didn't get it out of the way. She kept it a secret from Holden that she had been sexual with a bunch of guys. She practically did lie to Holden if she was making him believe he was her first man.

You're not wrong. Getting it out of the way isn't bad if you want it out of the way.

It could ruin the friendship with the person.... it may not, but it could. Who knows? All of this stuff can be very messy and tricky, but the point is, if something bothers you, you may be right to be bothered. If you can't be friends with a person for some reason, you can't be friends with them.

That may sound bad, but it's not the whole story. Holden was falling for Alyssa BEFORE he found out she was apparently a lesbian. He was expecting her to be straight in the beginning. One could assume he probably expected her, as a straight woman, to have slept with men in the past.

Then he finds out she's a lesbian.... and she makes him believe he's her first man ever. She did it "because it made him feel special." But what she's done... complicated things. Suddenly Holden doesn't want to lose that specialness, it seems.....

But I personally think there's more to it. I don't think it's just the sex stuff that's bothering Holden. On the surface, it may be. But underneath, I kinda think he's just bothered by Alyssa in general. Alyssa and Holden both have issues -- but Alyssa's issues seem more front and center, I think, in this whole relationship. There's the fact that she kept information from Holden.... the fact that she was an experimental girl (and Holden probably wasn't THAT experimental)... the fact that she freaked out one second after Holden told her he loved her, then the next second, she's in love with him! There's also the fact at the end of the movie with how she dumps him when he was trying, in his own way, to deal with her.

Holden's own issues probably revolve around repressed sexuality. The issue with Alyssa's men could be sparking something with Holden about his own sexual feelings for men. I think it's why he gets the idea to have a threesome with Alyssa and BANKY. Suddenly, from out of his mind, he gets the idea to solve his issues with Alyssa by having sex with Banky. Now where on Earth did that come from? And why is Alyssa so pissed at the end? She's pissed because Holden is trying to turn gay. She WAS gay and she tried to turn straight... now Holden is trying to turn ... at least bisexual.

The root cause of Holden's inner conflicts with Alyssa probably comes more from his own issues with his sexuality. As I think you said at one point -- he was inadequate. He felt inadequate as a straight guy -- probably the reason why he liked the idea that he was having sex with a woman and he thought he was her first man. When that WASN'T THE CASE, Holden's inadequacy and his issues struck him harder. So he changes and tries to become something else -- something that might intrigue Alyssa the way he intrigued her when he thought he was her "first man" -- he becomes gay, too. He becomes bisexual, like her. In a last ditch effort to fascinate her again -- because he feels like she's not fascinated by him anymore after he finds out he wasn't her first man. He's lost a sense of virility he used to have when she blows away the fantasy SHE concocted (that he was her first man). He liked her for who she was at first -- but then he finds out she's a lesbian, and she puts him in a fantasy, and suddenly things go south. It's why I blame her -- because I think she plays mind games with him.

Well... they can fire you if they find out you lied on your resume.

And that's part of the reason I don't like marriage.

*laughs* I'd have guessed because they were murderous psychos.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm... both have such different connotations though. I know what you're getting at at least.

I would place a big part of that on Holden though. He didn't even know let alone ask these things that he thinks are so important before deciding he was in love with her. That "puppy love" thing makes a comeback.

Oh I was totally into you, but now I've learned that you're X and that really turns me off. *break ties, walks away*

Are you suggesting some people prefer it be IN the way?

You're missing my point though, I'm talking about the distinction between platonic and intimate relationships.

What if Holden found out about her past BEFORE he they started an intimate relationship? He was learning new things about her already, what if he learned that she'd been in a threesome before?

Can you imagine that ruining their friendship, does that seem like the kind of thing that would prevent him from talking with her, laughing with her, and hanging out?

I don't think so, and I say that because a lot of people have this weird separation in their heads where you can be friends, more than friends, or nothing. There's no room for "let's try a deeper relationship and see if it works out, if not we'll just be friends" and suddenly things that would have been overlooked as a friend are personally accosting as a sexual partner.

So being her first penis is some sort of badge of pride that he didn't want to lose so he broke it off? Even if she lied to his face that's profoundly shallow.

You're suggesting again that she's just nuts.

The problem with that is there's no narrative confirmation of it and women being fickle emotional idiots is a common trope in movies. It's far more likely that she was just written poorly.

That's not confirmed by the movie either. In fact, Alyssa outright tells Holden why it bothers her. It reinforces his slanted perspective of her in his mind by assuming that she'd just be cool with it when she's stated that she's not that kind of person anymore.

This is backed up by their argument in the parking lot when she said she liked the way he originally felt about her. She doesn't want to lose that which is why she glossed over the truth. Now he's suggesting we feed directly into that so that HE can get over it, but that fails to consider her feelings on the matter.

It'd be kind of like finding out your partner accidentally killed a kid in a car crash and despite them feeling really guilty about it, you weren't able to let it go. Then you come back to them and suggest getting into a car together and running over some children so you can get over it. It's missing the point of why they concealed that information in the first place.


All of this is of course assuming that a threesome X many years ago is even that kind of a moral atrocity to begin with.

Holden doesn't appear capable of being able to accept that people can change. I'm sure he's done some stupid **** before. They emphasize the liberal/conservative angle wherein people look at things with different general perspectives. Alyssa may not have thought sex like that was that big of a deal, but what if she learned about something Holden had done that he didn't think was that big of a deal?

All of this just goes to inform that these kinds of things should be deal with before they can become problems.

That'sssssssssss an interesting interpretation.

Mind games require an exchange and a lot of what Holden was dealing with was contradictions to his assumptions.

His claim to Banky that "she's totally into me" reads as pure delusion to me. Unless you put a presumptive weight on everything she says being veiled and read-between-the-lines kind of dialog, but playing those mind games, whether you're the speaker or the listener is almost ALWAYS a source of problems.

Again that presumes there's an equivalent of a resume and even so it goes right back to what I said about lying. Lying is a totally different issue.

I'm not quite as enamored with Nightmare Before Christmas as you are, but it is among my favorites and it's nice to see you not bash something I love for a change.

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It really appeals to me artistically and inspires a lot of my own work. Very few movies have a claim to that.


...thoughts on Schindler's List?

I think it's a much more powerful film than you give it credit for, but I'm glad you didn't hate it.

I was going to mention something to that effect, but I either forgot to or couldn't figure out where to fit it in.

I was honestly expecting it to be a very emotionally crushing movie, but maybe I've just been de-sensitized to it? I've seen The Boy in the Striped Pajamas and was honestly surprised it wasn't taken as far as that movie by showing us the gas chambers in use, even though it did have shocking moments (some of which being a bit predictable to me perhaps didn't help).

When I think of a really depressing and emotionally draining movie I think of Grave of the Fireflies.