Movie Forums (http://www.movieforums.com/community/index.php)
-   General Movie Discussion (http://www.movieforums.com/community/forumdisplay.php?f=2)
-   -   Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made? (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=72716)

FilmBuff 04-27-25 11:27 AM

Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
 
Do you agree or disagree with the statement (made by Steven Spielberg last night) that The Godfather is the greatest American movie ever made?

He made the statement at the ceremony where Francis Ford Coppola was given the AFI Life Achievement Award.


Hollywood legends gathered Saturday night to celebrate Francis Ford Coppola as he received the prestigious AFI Life Achievement Award, the highest honor bestowed by the American Film Institute.

Steven Spielberg and George Lucas presented Coppola with the 50th AFI Life Achievement Award.

Spielberg called Coppola “fearless.” Spielberg, who first met Coppola in 1967, said, “On one hand, you are a warrior for independent artists, you always champion their causes, but also, and always, you’re fearless in how open you are to ideas, opinions and inspiration.”

He recalled watching an early cut of “Apocalypse Now,” which was five hours long, with other filmmakers. “When the film ended, you asked us to tell you what we saw, how we felt. You invited all of us in, so one by one, we told you where we were lost and where we were found, and I sat there in awe, learning that leaving yourself open and searching was, in fact, your superpower.”

Spielberg went on to say, “‘The Godfather,’ for me, is the greatest American film ever made. Many artists can and do take a bow from their work on a page, on a canvas, on a screen, but our applause for you Francis, is from a different kind of audience. When we’re young, it’s our parents we want to make proud, and then it’s our friends, and then it’s our colleagues, and finally, it’s our peers, but you, sir, are peerless.” Spielberg said, “You have taken what came before and redefined the canon of American film, and in so doing, you’ve inspired a generation of storytellers who want to make you proud of their work, proud of our work, and I always want to make you proud of my work.”

Lucas reminisced on his lifelong bond as the “Apocalypse Now” director -the two first met when Lucas shadowed Coppola on the set of his film “Finian’s Rainbow” in 1968. Lucas called Coppola his hero. Said Lucas, “When I was 22, he taught me, don’t be afraid of jumping off cliffs. And I’ve lived with that the rest of my life, although I don’t go to the higher level that he does.”

Lucas and Spielberg then presented Coppola with the AFI Life Achievement Award. Coppola was moved by the tributes that had been bestowed.

In his speech, Coppola reflected on memories with friends and family. “There are the empty lots I played in, most gone with new buildings I don’t recognize. So many friends and neighbors returning my smiles, that kid who wouldn’t let me be on his team now and still throwing the ball in his club, and so many others I remember, all grow older, but still somehow the same. One young friend, as tall and strong as he used to be. No, that’s his son, the little boy he used to carry on his shoulders.” He continued, “There’s a stoop where my family used to sit on hot summer nights and drink beer, but where’s the old nickel vending machine, which dispensed the first cashew nut I ever tasted? All my uncles, my aunts, everyone’s still here, out there. Some giving me a welcome wave or blowing me a kiss. What a pull on my heart. Faces I knew and loved. Some I feared, some helpful, encouraging, and those I felt wronged me, but they had their own reasons, and I forgive them one more, because I’ve learned that the only person really impossible to forgive is yourself.”

Coppola ended by saying, “Now I understand here, this place that created me, my home, isn’t really a place at all, but you, friends, colleagues, teachers, playmates, family, neighbors, all the beautiful faces are welcoming me back, because I am and will always be nothing more than one of you.”

Coppola was visibly moved by tributes from Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Adam Driver, Harrison Ford, Morgan Freeman, Dustin Hoffman, Ron Howard, C. Thomas Howell, Diane Lane, Spike Lee and Ralph Macchio.

”The Godfather” actors De Niro and Pacino took to the stage to honor Coppola. “You changed my life,” De Niro said. Pacino echoed those sentiments honoring him for his trailblazing vision. Pacino said, “Francis just fought for us long time. He fought for his film and his vision, which he always does.” Pacino thanked Coppola for “believing in me even more than I believed in myself.”

Hoffman was one of the many actors who praised Coppola for his unique ability to recognize and nurture talent. Hoffman told the audience how Coppola fought for stars like Diane Keaton, Al Pacino, Talia Shire, James Caan and more. “By casting them, you have them the opportunity of a lifetime.” Hoffman, who starred in “Megalopolis” joked, “Unfortunately, you waited until I was 86.”

Coppola cemented himself as one of our greatest auteurs thanks to his impressive output of films including “The Godfather” sequels, “The Conversation,” “Apocalypse Now” and “Bram Stoker’s Dracula.”

Earlier in the evening, The Franklin J. Schaffner alumni medal tribute was given posthumously to David Lynch. In a video recorded before his death, Lynch said, “AFI is learning by experiencing and analyzing cinema history and learning by doing.” Lynch continued, “AFI helps you find your own unique cinema voice and AFI champions your voice ringing out. I love AFI.”

The annual event took place at the Dolby Theatre in Los Angeles, where Coppola’s family, his close friends and colleagues lauded his illustrious career.

A televised special of the gala, “The 50th AFI Life Achievement Award: A Tribute to Francis Ford Coppola,” will premiere on TNT with an encore airing on TCM at a later date.

First awarded in 1973, other past AFI Life Achievement Award honorees include Orson Welles, Bette Davis, Alfred Hitchcock, Gene Kelly, Sidney Poitier, Steven Spielberg, Meryl Streep, Denzel Washington and more. Last year, the AFI honored Nicole Kidman.

Allaby 04-27-25 11:31 AM

Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
 
I wouldn't consider it the best, but I would say it is one of the best American movies.

FilmBuff 04-27-25 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Allaby (Post 2555739)
I wouldn't consider it the best, but I would say it is one of the best American movies.
Which one would you call the best?

Allaby 04-27-25 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555740)
Which one would you call the best?
I would rank Ben-Hur (1959) as the best. (Fun fact: Ben-hur was the first film to win 11 Academy Awards.) I would personally consider Gone with the Wind to be better than The Godfather, but that now seems to be an unpopular opinion. Schindler's List is also a greater film than The Godfather, in my opinion. But Godfather is definitely up there in the top 10 for sure, just not the greatest in my personal opinion.

LeBoyWondeur 04-27-25 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555736)
Do you agree or disagree with the statement (made by Steven Spielberg last night) that The Godfather is the greatest American movie ever made?

He made the statement at the ceremony where Francis Ford Coppola was given the AFI Life Achievement Award.
It's a nice thing to say when someone receives that award, and it sounds a lot better than second or third-greatest American movie ever made.

THE greatest film doesn't exist, that's the only thing I know for sure.

Corax 04-27-25 11:50 AM

Probably.... .....not.

Statistically speaking, even if there is a "greatest American film" objectively, the odds that any single one of set of American films is the greatest is statistically very small. The problem isn't just with the ontology (is there a greatest American film which happens to be this film?), but with the epistemology. Pray tell, provision us with the objective standards by which we may condescend to have penetrated into such mysteries?

If there is no objective answer to the question, then we have to default to intersubjective standards which are elastic (they are stretched by new members which enter into the set of "American films" and they shrink as cultural memory of older films fade). Intersubjectively (relative to the intersubjectivity of the North American continent), the Godfather was plausibly the best American film for a period of time (lasting a few decades after it was made). Traditionally, it has scored very highly in the lists of critics (the experts who shape and reflect taste) and conversations of the public. It has always been a safe choice like "Citizen Kane." Even then, however, there has always been a debate. I don't know that there was ever an air-tight consensus in favor of this film. Moreover, as it recedes in cultural memory and shares space with new films (which steal everything they can from older films) it will be crowded to the side of the stage. Spielberg was talking someone up at a tribute and he's an old head from the time when it was plausible to put Godfather at #1. Is it even really Spielberg's #1 or was that epideictic pillow-talk?

Subjectively, there is no right answer.

I can't think of a meaningful metric by which we might answer this question, outside of a boast. Best I can do is make the case for "good or bad", "better or worse," "classic or clunker," relative to community standards.
https://uploads.dailydot.com/2024/01...r=2:1&fit=crop

LeBoyWondeur 04-27-25 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555746)
Is it even really Spielberg's #1?
His statement can be both true and false, it depends on what wasn't said.
"Greatest American film ever made by FFC" might be closer to the truth.

Furthermore, even if Spielberg's comment was 100% genuine, it's possible that FFC didn't believe him. There's some irony in that.

Citizen Rules 04-27-25 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Allaby (Post 2555742)
I would rank Ben-Hur (1959) as the best. (Fun fact: Ben-hur was the first film to win 11 Academy Awards.) I would personally consider Gone with the Wind to be better than The Godfather, but that now seems to be an unpopular opinion. Schindler's List is also a greater film than The Godfather, in my opinion...
Agreed with all of that.

Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2555744)
...THE greatest film doesn't exist, that's the only thing I know for sure.
Yup.

Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555746)
...I can't think of a meaningful metric by which we might answer this question, outside of a boast...
That's right. The only way to answer is from our own personal taste. To me The Godfather is a well made film but not the greatest American made film of all time. My thoughts on The Godfather

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2015460)
https://www.movieforums.com/communit...chmentid=54612
The Godfather (1972)

So what is it that people love about this movie? In a way it could be described as the ultimate soap opera. Now I know people use the phrase 'soap opera' negatively when talking about a movie, but not me. To me a film that's soap opera-ish, means that it has a lot of heart and it has a lot of complex human interrelationships, to me that's what makes a movie interesting. With a 'soap opera' movie, if it's done well, you get so much more than just an action-thriller. The Godfather takes us inside of the Corleone family and make us a part of that closely woven family for a three hour journey. We see their hopes and aspirations, we learn the meaning of loyalty and respect, and we see how interconnected relationships can break down when loyalty is lost.

The first act is by far my favorite that's where we meet the Corleone family as they come together to celebrate their daughter's wedding. The Godfather is based on a rather lengthy novel and that's why the second and third acts seem condensed as the director is tying to squeeze this big story into a 3 hour movie. That's always a problem for lengthy-detailed novels being turned into a screen play. I do think highly of Francis Ford Coppola efforts here. What keeps me from loving The Godfather, is that I'm not at all interested in organized crime or movies about it.




Robert the List 04-27-25 12:26 PM

Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
 
Touch of Evil.

Citizen Rules 04-27-25 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555754)
What makes The Godfather a truly outstanding movie is that it isn’t merely interested “in organized crime”.

It’s Coppola’s commentary on American capitalism.

And that commentary gets even deeper when you get to Part II.
You're wrong, The Godfather isn't just merely an organized crime movie, it's about family, loyalty, mistrust, personalities and more: From my review:
In a way it could be described as the ultimate soap opera. Now I know people use the phrase 'soap opera' negatively when talking about a movie, but not me. To me a film that's soap opera-ish, means that it has a lot of heart and it has a lot of complex human interrelationships, to me that's what makes a movie interesting. With a 'soap opera' movie, if it's done well, you get so much more than just an action-thriller. The Godfather takes us inside of the Corleone family and make us a part of that closely woven family for a three hour journey. We see their hopes and aspirations, we learn the meaning of loyalty and respect, and we see how interconnected relationships can break down when loyalty is lost.

Citizen Rules 04-27-25 01:05 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555757)
I literally just said that it isn’t “merely an organized crime movie“, so if anything, we would be in agreement there. ;)

But the real strength of the movie is that it shows us how a tightly-knit family pushes back and somewhat overcomes the forces of capitalism.

The counterpoint is then made in Part II that capitalism will ultimately destroy that family unity.
You misquoted me, you took my last sentence from my review where I say why I don't personally love The Godfather ignoring the bulk of my review where I talk about how the movie is much more than just crime...which then made my post look like I had said it was only a mere crime movie.


Either: you misrepresented what I said deliberately, which is something you've been accused of many times on this board.

Or maybe you were merely a careless reader and didn't bother to read my full review. Which one is it?

Robert the List 04-27-25 01:15 PM

Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
 
I'd have these as the contenders:

Mr Smith Goes to Washington 1939
The Wizard of Oz 1939
Meshes of the Afternoon 1943
Notorious 1946
Little Fugitive 1953
On the Waterfront 1954
Rear Window 1954
Touch of Evil 1958
Psycho 1960
The Sound of Music 1965
The Graduate 1967
McCabe and Mrs Miller 1971
The Godfather 1972
Taxi Driver 1976
Apocalypse Now 1979
Alien 1979
E.T. The Extra Terrestrial 1982
Saving Private Ryan 1998
Mulholland Drive 2001
Donnie Darko 2001
No Country for Old Men 2007
Frances Ha 2012

And if you count them as American:
2001 1969
Barry Lyndon 1975

LeBoyWondeur 04-27-25 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2555751)
My thoughts on The Godfather
I agree with your opinion that it's a soap opera. Replace the Corleones with the Ewings of DALLAS and you basically get the same thing.
And even that goes back to classic stories about a King's court or the Ancient Rome shenanigans.

Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555754)
It’s Coppola’s commentary on American capitalism.
Not exactly a new concept in 1972 (or 1969, if we go by the novel).
As for the downfall of the family, is it possible that being involved with organised crime has something to do with that (just speculating).

The first one is watchable enough, and as Citizen said it's the opening scene that got me very excited.
The second one is a beautifully made drag and I found it a challenge to finish it.

Corax 04-27-25 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2555762)

You misquoted me, you took my last sentence from my review where I say why I don't personally love The Godfather ignoring the bulk of my review where I talk about how the movie is much more than just crime...which then made my post look like I had said it was only a mere crime movie.


Either: you misrepresented what I said deliberately, which is something you've been accused of many times on this board.

Or maybe you were merely a careless reader and didn't bother to read my full review. Which one is it?
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

crumbsroom 04-27-25 01:37 PM

If only I had a dime for everytime someone said 'but there is no such thing as a best movie', I bet I could melt them all down and make a giant hammer to pummel myself unconscious with. But then I'm sure these same debate scientists would come back to me with the facts that the metal alloys that compose dimes would never be able to make a hammer heavy enough to knock myself out with and so I'd just be left repeatedly pounding myself in the head with this lightweight tool of my making, while remaining fully and horribly semi-conscious. You know, the perfect visual analogy for debate on this horror show called the internet.

Corax 04-27-25 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555769)
If only I had a dime for everytime someone said 'but there is no such thing as a best movie', I bet I could melt them all down and make a giant hammer to pummel myself unconscious with. But then I'm sure these same debate scientists would come back to me with the facts that the metal alloys that compose dimes would never be able to make a hammer heavy enough to knock myself out with and so I'd just be left repeatedly pounding myself in the head with this lightweight tool of my making, while remaining fully and horribly semi-conscious. You know, the perfect visual analogy for debate on this horror show called the internet.
Your terms are acceptable.

SpelingError 04-27-25 01:46 PM

Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
 
If we agree that certain movies are better than other movies (I don't think anyone could disagree with this statement; it goes without saying), then theoretically, there would HAVE to be a best movie ever made. The tiers of greatness can't go on forever.

Anyways, I imagine The Godfather would make it pretty high on a 'best films ever made' list if I ever took the time to make one, but I don't know that it would be #1.

LeBoyWondeur 04-27-25 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555769)
If only I had a dime for everytime someone said 'but there is no such thing as a best movie'
It's not an opinion or just a hollow phrase, it's logic.
The Best Film Ever has to be the best in everything and in every genre. And that film has not been made yet.
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555769)
I bet I could melt them all down and make a giant hammer to pummel myself unconscious with.
It's an interesting scenario.

Corax 04-27-25 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by SpelingError (Post 2555777)
If we agree that certain movies are better than other movies (I don't think anyone could disagree with this statement; it goes without saying), then theoretically, there would HAVE to be a best movie ever made. The tiers of greatness can't go on forever.
"Certain movies are better than others" also allows for the possibility that "certain movies are of equal quality." And if we observe this, then the very best movies might also be of equal quality. Your syllogism is invalid. The conclusion does not necessarily follow.

But even of the ontology of your premises were sound (i.e., let's grant that there is, in fact, a "best" movie out there, somewhere), that brings us no closer to resolving the epistemological dilemma. OK, which one is it?

crumbsroom 04-27-25 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2555779)
It's not an opinion or just a hollow phrase, it's logic.
The Best Film Ever has to be the best in everything and in every genre. And that film has not been made yet.

It's an interesting scenario.

What does logic have to do with art? Logically, art shouldn't matter at all. But it does. And that's why we talk about it. And that's why these hollow debates about what is best actually sort of matter. They are provocations to get us talking. That's how we figure out what it is about art that brings value to our lives. And why we differ appraising it.


But sure. Logic. That is really going to get us places. I can't wait till we get to the part where we talk about how we're all going to die so nothing ultimately matters anyway. That's the real good uncut stuff.


All times are GMT -3. The time now is 05:56 PM.

Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright, ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2025 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Movie Forums