Judging Movies By Their Message
 

I think it's an inherent—and often subconscious—bias, but I wonder how much it shapes our final judgment of a movie. When a film presents an allegory or microcosm that aligns with our worldview, are we more likely to praise it, even if its execution is flawed? And conversely, do we dismiss brilliant films simply because we don’t agree with their message?


I'm no expert on newer movies, but it seems like they fall into camps—films that align with certain ideologies and are praised for it, and those that don't, which often get written off regardless of craft

Re: Judging Movies By Their Message
 

I was thinking about romance, and I realize I like less of a character if they cheat. I can't think of many movies I love where I can't stand a single character.

Re: Judging Movies By Their Message
 

I think for me, it's definitely easier to connect with a movie if the message resonates—kind of like your example with romance and cheating. Storytelling, at its core, has always been about finding points of connection with the audience. It goes all the way back to cavemen painting on walls and gathering around fires—only now it's us sitting in a theater staring at the silver screen. So it makes total sense that people would feel more strongly toward stories that explore life in ways they personally relate to.

That said, I do think movies with excellent craft deserve appreciation even if I’m not emotionally hooked by the message. A good example for me is Speed Racer. I thought it was a phenomenal adaptation—not just of the old anime, but of the whole shounen anime spirit. The Wachowskis absolutely nailed the over-the-top energy, the bright and colorful universe, the burning passion for one’s dream, and that sense of "this is the most important thing in the universe!" that defines so much of shounen storytelling. I could tell they really understood and respected the material. But emotionally? It didn't click with me that deeply, because it's still rooted in themes like friendship and family—the standard shounen toolkit—which just doesn't move the needle for me personally. I admired the craftsmanship without loving the story.

When it comes to modern cinema, I find a lot of the craft leans toward things I don't prioritize as a viewer. Like, it's objectively impressive that Tom Cruise is scaling buildings and hanging off planes, but high-stakes stunts aren’t really what I’m looking for in a great film. And when it comes to messaging—well, let's just say a lot of the more agenda-driven themes being pushed lately don't really resonate with me either, at least not in any organic way.

At the end of the day, I think it's natural that our worldview shapes how much we "click" with a movie. Great craftsmanship can still be acknowledged, even admired, but connection—real connection—is personal. And no amount of perfect editing or breathtaking stunts can fake that.

My favorite movie is Sweet Smell of Success, I can't say the main character's actions or personalities align with mine in anyway.

Re: Judging Movies By Their Message
 

Birth of a Nation (1915) is an extreme example of acknowledging technical accomplishment in a film, while rejecting it's message outright. Although, I don't know if it's considered great in it's acting and all other.

But also to your point i could never look past the message in that film to even consider it worthy of any praise from me.
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I liked it for the snappy writing. Maybe it's that?

Yup, best written dialogue of any movie, that's how I feel.

Re: Judging Movies By Their Message
 

For me it depends on why it's showing me the message it's showing. I don't have to agree with the message if the movie isn't trying to sell me solely on its message and it's a good film. If the film sucks and I agree with its message I won't like the film. I guess it's a film-by-film thing. Did it do its thing and did it do it well?

Sweet Smell of Success is full of rotten people. That screenplay though is awesome. I love the dialogue.

Obviously.


If you see two movies and you liked them both, wouldn't you prefer or mention that movie, even if you hypothetically gave them the same score?

Yeah I'd probably prefer the one I agree with more. So it rather falls in line with what you're asking.

Hard to say what the "message" of the film involves.

1. The overt moral of the story.
2. The subtext of the story.
3. The ontology of the story (what kind of universe are we in? is it fatalistic, contingent, tragic, comic?). Call this "the ideology of the narrative-world."
4. The ideology of the protagonist.
5. The ideology of the antagonist (definition by negation - "Don't be 'this guy'").

Yes, we're inclined to like things that agree with our world view dislike things which are hostile to our worldview. Imagine a poorly made movie (i.e., it sucks and no one likes it) that is hostile to your worldview. Now, imagine a really well-made film that people love which is hostile to your worldview. Which one is more bothersome? Which one is more likely to feel like a pebble in your shoe?

Turn it around the other way. Imagine a movie favorable to your view that sucks. You probably won't champion it, unless in offers a rarely articulated viewpoint which you happen to share. If you're in an embattled minority and this film takes your cause, then you will be likely to stand by it as one of the few filmic banners for your cause. Alternatively, if opinions are polarized (strongly for or strongly against), we will argue for a poorer film so that the other side doesn't score an "easy win." In either case, the apologia flows quite freely.

If your point of view, however, is mainstream and the movie shares it, I don't think you will be likely bias yourself in favor of it. In this case, the ideology will be invisible to you (it was just saying what any reasonable person would say, after all!), but the poor quality of it's craftsmanship will stand out. It's easy to be reasonable when there are no perceived stakes.

Originally Posted by matt72582 (Post 2555155)

I think it's an inherent—and often subconscious—bias, but I wonder how much it shapes our final judgment of a movie. When a film presents an allegory or microcosm that aligns with our worldview, are we more likely to praise it, even if its execution is flawed? And conversely, do we dismiss brilliant films simply because we don’t agree with their message?

I can honestly say that a movie’s message has absolutely no bearing on how I judge a movie’s cinematic merits. For example, I consider The Birth of a Nation to be the most evil, racist film ever made, but from a cinematic POV, I still revere it for its groundbreaking technical wizardry. Also, when it comes to politics, I’m a Center-Right Conservative but love many films with Leftwing (and even pro-Communist) themes and messages, i.e. Reds, Julia, Green Zone, Fahrenheit 9/11, etc. I also dislike bad films with Rightwing messages, i.e. Red Dawn.

Like with anything, it's a case by case basis; I'm not going to act as though every movie that expresses something political I disgree with is automatically Birth Of A Nation as a result, but it should be fair game to criticize a movie for its politics, the same as any other aspect, because art isn't just informed by real life, it can also affect the real world in return, and that should be taken into consideration. So, while these movies range from being good to some of the greatest of all time, it should be fair game for me to criticize Dirty Harry for justifying police brutality, or The Dark Knight for its normalization of an "ends justify the means" mentality towards law and order, which took place amid the legalization of torture by the Bush administration by the same rationale, or Taxi Driver's overly negative portrayal of Black men on the whole, since that promotes harmful stereotypes about that group, which leads to cases like Brian Banks taking a plea deal when he was falsely accused of sexual assault, because he was told that his all white jury would just see "a big, black" scary kid on trial, and he would be likely to get a much harsher sentence if he didn't. Now, none of these politically problematic aspects ruin any of these movies, but it is fair to take them into account, and criticize the movies as a result? It better be, or else we might as well just stop critiquing movies altogether...

If art deserves special protection it must be because it has truths to tell (truths which are said to be hard to tell in other modalities of human expression). But if so, then it also deserves judgment.

If, on the other hand, art has no message, if Birth of a Nation is to be judged as a hollow formality, if we merely justify it on the ground of "camera technique," etc., then art deserves no special protection, because it has nothing to say. We can't have it both ways. If art deserves protection (categorically), that's because art has something to say. If it has something to say, art has a message. If the message is part of the artwork, then we may (and even must) judge the artwork (at least partially) by the message.

Sinners (2025), for a modern example, has some disturbing racial coding. Contemporary black horror is rather conspicuous (e.g., Get Out, Candy Man - the remake) in playing with racial themes of causality, blame, essence, punishment, etc., Should we notice this? Should we hold the artwork to account for it?



Should we "see" the message and talk about it? Or is it safer to just pretend that we don't see it (like a scary ghost or vampire), that we don't care, and that we don't judge it. Spike Lee, talented and racist as he is (you can be both), is an important artist because he pushed the conversation about race. Failing to discuss Lee's art in moral terms is a failure to dignify Lee as an artist (because Lee IS a moralist, through-and-through, his message is moral).

Why wouldn't we speak about what is vital in art? To do otherwise is sit outside the juke joint and miss out on the soul of art. Why pretend that art is a hollow vampiric entity which only involves formal memetic repetition and permutation with no semantic and therefore no axiological core?

Everything that goes into a movie matters and is fair game for consideration...

...but true capital-C criticism of form must at least be capable of divorcing method from message. I don't trust, or have a lot of time or use for, criticism that can't or won't do that. I find little value in criticism that can't sit with the (inevitable) uncomfortable intersection of "this is a great work of art saying something I don't agree with." Which treats art as if it's primary function is didactic.

We just watched Gone With the Wind (1939) in the 34th HoF. The reactions were along the lines that one might expect for a modern audience watching a film with that subject matter. How would it's 'message' be classified, what kind of message does it deliver.

Using any of these five examples of types of film messages which one(s) fit Gone With the Wind?

We all have built in biases towards what we agree with or disagree with. It can't be avoided. We are manipulated by these things both consciously and unconsciously. Everyone of us.


But putting that aside, we do a disservice to ourselves when we wilfully shut out ideologies that we don't agree with. In cases where we are presented with political views that are not our own, we can learn about the human side of stories and life guiding philosophies from a more humanist angle, instead of letting ourselves be blinded by pure ideology where we no longer see the people involved at all. And even in instances where a film may transgress our moral boundaries, there is value even here in how it can flesh out our understanding of the darker side of humanity and the forces which compell them to behave in ways which we may believe are wrong or harmful or just straight up vile. They can make us ever more aware of why we need to fight against our worst impulses. What they can lead to.


Maybe some would argue the danger in exposing ourselves to such ideologically contradictory forces can make us fall prey to them. Absorb them as our own. But frankly, if all it takes is a couple of movies to push you towards the Darkside....you were probably already hurtling in that direction anyways. And if this isn't the case, and you had believed yourself to be resolute in your beliefs but suddenly Dirty Harry convinced you that cops should shoot first and ask questions later...maybe you should work on getting a better more resilient brain.

Re: Judging Movies By Their Message
 

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

This also applies to objections to art that boil down to "yes I can handle it but I'm worried it'll persuade other people of <thing I think is wrong>."

There is no realistic version of the world where that many people are that easily convinced of something they were not predisposed to that's going to survive long anyway. If you think we need to cordon off transgressive (or, let's be real: transgressive to the critic's views) art because it'll poison people's minds, then you're not saving society, you're just trying to delay an inevitable decline.

Re: Judging Movies By Their Message
 

I very much dislike when a movie really pushes an idea or opinion where it seems it's the goal of the movie to send this message rather than to just entertain. An example is Adam McKay movies which I've found are far too preachy and try too hard to parallel real life...it just comes off as a lecture where he's first showing me events and then telling me how to feel about them at the same time. So that stuff is a definite turnoff.

But if an idea is presented in a subtle manner I'll never blame the movie for it...not to mention that showing characters with these opinions is kind of a good way to flesh them out...people with strong opinions on stuff probably come off as more realistic in some ways. Even if I don't agree with the opinion, if I can buy the character in the movie believing it then it makes sense to have it in.

And I can't stand when people watch a movie and desperately try to compare it to recent events or politics. I truly feel sorry for these people who are so obsessed with this stuff that they can't even watch a movie without it coming to mind. They're doing themselves and the movie a disservice.