Films whose messages/meanings are outshined by the gloss
 

Films that try to preach to the non-converted (and their success)....

Fight Club:

So, most would agree Fight Club has more to say than: "why not start a fight club?". Yet many people just walked away with that or one of the more visual ideas. Has this film failed then by only drawing people in on a superficial level and failing to introduce them more forcefully to the themes it was parodying. i.e. is there any point in parodying hero-worship/sheep-behaviour etc if your method of communicating this actually re-inforces these tendancies? (altho of course, to get passed these and other commercially re-inforced varients, you have to be actively looking beoynd the gloss. Heigh ho. Did the makers provide enough access points for even the least inquisitive mind to question the more ironic assertions etc?)

The Matrices:

Most people seem to have come out of the matrix reloaded (which i believe has lots of interesting broad-based things to say, if no real exploration of personal/individual feelings and relationships as such. just an over-view of belief systems etc)...just having had their he-who-kicks-hardest beliefs re-inforced (and a feeling that what they didn't understand was "stupid" - a fascinating way of terming dense dialogue that made no sense to them)

Both films seem to use their structure to force anyone following the plot to come to the writer's/director's own conclusions. Yet most people don't seem to view films that way. They don't seem to pick up on these internal logics of the film, despite their nescesity for the films success/coherence! What has gone wrong then? If they make people walk out of the cinema totally missing the irony - should they have done more to re-direct the viewer away from simplistic/surface conclusions.

I don't know. I'm fascinated by this. I think every film that tries something like this runs a huge risk of only reaching the converted with its message, while placating opposite/opposed views etc thru it's attempts to draw all viewers in. A fundamental tenet of self-exploration is that it can only be prompted, not spoon-fed. Should these films be making sure the less-questioning viewer doesn't settle into a self-satisfied and internally-justified surface explanation of the film? But would this compromise their success? i.e. that type of viewer just wants a low-level lobe-massage. Nothing too stimulating. They don't want to think - just to be told.

Oh to be a euphemistic, evangelical, edifying, easily-edible, entertaining, earth-shifting, ecumenically-unreligious, easy-access editor of directorial delights. That'd be nice. The future beckons....onward....

What thinks y'all?

Not again.....I'm still trying to debate with you about the Matrix movies inner meaning....

Drat. Oh well. There are plenty of films like this.

xactly. I think we're reaching equilibrium point over matrix/DC anyway (i.e. we won't be able to [dis]agree any more ;) - until the last matrix clears up its over-all messages by concluding them - and you tell me i should concentrate on M1 again ;))

What others can you think of? Tho, actually...don't want to over-load you Bealey ;) You've still got convince me on U-571 on a related theme - How-much-do-action/thoughtless-movies-rely-on-implicit-messages/meanings. [and in that case - are those implict meanings/messages highly dubious and liable to actually alter or inforce dubious views and actions. I believe so - as you know ;)]

Happy hours in front of the eye-frazzler ;)

Speaking of Equilibrium....have you seen that?

My movies to recommend to Golgot:

Below
Equilibrium

I'll get to doing U soon. I'm still figuring out whether or not I like it and where it fits in on my rating system.

Thaaaat was it. I'll get on it. That and Battleship Potemkin, and maybe one of the Solarii, and o sugar i got a stack of amazon books piling up with a highlighter by them. What's Below about?

Think a good, accurate, non-stereotyping U-571 and mix in a ghost story, not to mention several cool characters played by everybodys favorite character actors. 100 times better than U-571 and it was a pretty low budget picture. I think you'd love it.

I'd put Equilibrium pretty high on the list (after Battleship P and Solaris or course...). It seems like something right down your alley.

Cool. I'll have a butchers (as we say over here - well, in films anyway ;))

Right, i'll try and think of a few examples of plotty-gloss-loss then:

Well...

Wag the Dog wanted to take the mick out of perceptal spin, but instead got to hung up parodying itself (i.e movies)

Planet of the apes (the original) probably did get a point across i suppose i.e. We should stop acting like monkies all the time (monkey-see-monkey-do?) with the A-bomb etc. But did everyone who needed to get the message sit to the end? ;)

Nah, Fight Club is the best example so far i.e. a great example of people coming away with ironically opposite views to the ones the film intended to propogate.

These days Clockwork Orange can't even backfire coz no one finds the violence exciting/attractive or even disturbing, or the dialogue interesting it seems (seeing the odd view here anyway)

I found Alex's adventures to be exciting in a Goodfellas sense, and yet horrible toward the end of the film (what they were doing to him.....strange huh?)

damn - found out ;)
 

unfortunately i've never seen it :blush:

we just used to read the first chapter constantly in different english classes. And i've read commentaries etc. It's on my list!

Its very good. Check it out!

Have you seen Minority Report? Blade Runner? Total Recall?

Oh yeah, for sure. They're all PK Dick ones aren't they? I suppose we could say blade runner didn't get it's point across coz (a) it was hacked into a new form by the studio first (b) and after it's still too esoteric for everyone to pick up on everything (especially the first time round ;))

Minority Report hasn't made people suspicious of predictive crime (or terrorist attack) prevention either ;)

I wasn't suggesting those films for your message...although come to think of it...it would work. I was wanting to know how you felt about these films.

I love BR and MR. Two of my very favorite films (maybe even on my top ten)

yeah, i know. Just trying to b coherent ;)

Yeah they're both classy. I thought spielberg managed to control his smulchy side in MR (that was him wasn't it?). I've still gotta read "do androids dream..." etc to see his original vision for the BR world. The film is just visually engrossing all the way thru tho.

I always found TR an enjoyable watch too. Another nice mix of action to engage with a bit of an agenda behind it (if a fairly convoluted and unclear one on some levels - and fairly simplistic on others: bad guy get greedy and make life worse - but don't worry, alien technology can save us :rolleyes: )

I would think you of all people would be able to read into that better. (Subconcious desires, etc.)

TR was awesome. A great movie. Not quite as high up there as BR and MR though...

Yeah, that's it. I don't think it's got quite as much to say on the perception front. The tricks it plays are more about plotline twists (the bit with the doc and sharon stone turning up is class tho). The unbconscious/conscious reality/dream divides are played with - but they're not actually used to develop an idea about these themes or their part in daily life etc. i.e. the conclusion is more this theme of: our-technology-has-caused-advances-but-horrors-and-deprivations-too but not to worry, here comes the alien technology and the mystical mutant. It's cool, but the solutions are a bit to dreamy and far removed for me to find a satisfying central theme to it. But your right, it does have lots of cool perceptual playfulness.

Thats all I was going for. (I think the Matrix falls under this category under most cases as well)

we'll see. We'll see.

Welly welly welly well my little droog brother....

Visit my Nature of Evil thread.

You're imagining that people who go to movies, not all people, but a lot of them, actually think about what they're watching. My favorite case in point: Three Kings. A really savage satire on the gulf war (the first one) which points out the fact that we didn't win anything, and actually made things worse, yet everyone I know in the army LOVES this film for it's combat action sequences. The director's point is completely lost through no fault of his own. The same goes for Fight Club, really. I think it was Michael Moore, Republican enemy #1 and all around trouble maker, who said that America doesn't understand satire. It needs things to be spelled out: This Is Bad.