I favour a smaller pool of voters, even if it means only a top 50, where those voters actually like the films they vote for and the films fit the genre, over including things that don't fit the genre just for the sake of maximum participation. There are certainly enough musicals to choose from without needing to include things that are not musicals.

War - I was thinking movies on the battlefield with a serious tone to them but again you may need to broadened things up like have war comedy in there as well, just like musicals you might need to broaden things up also.

I favour a smaller pool of voters, even if it means only a top 50, where those voters actually like the films they vote for and the films fit the genre, over including things that don't fit the genre just for the sake of maximum participation. There are certainly enough musicals to choose from without needing to include things that are not musicals.

Is this where I break a pool cue in half and throw it on the ground?

War movies are more than just combat movies. Surely The Best Years of Our Lives and Coming Home are War movies, even though there are no combat scenes in them. As is Downfall. As are POW stories like The Bridge on the River Kwai, Stalag 17 and The Great Escape. So are Holocaust narratives like Schindler's List and The Pianist. Gone with the Wind is surely a War movie. What about The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly? Getting back to combat, do only "real" wars count? If they do, do only dramatized versions of real battles and soldiers count? Saving Private Ryan, though set in the real battlefront, the story and its characters are fictional. Clearly Apocalypse Now is just about 110% fiction. What about Inglourious Basterds, that even changes the outcome of a real war? Still a War film? Kelly's Heroes and Three Kings are hybrids, heist films that take place on battlefields, so still War movies, correct? Fictional thrillers set during wartime like Eye of the Needle and 36 Hours? If you allow fictional characters and battles in real wars to count, how about battles and wars that are entirely fictional? The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is mostly The Battle of Helms frickin' Deep. Is that a War film? How about The Cold War? Aren't Fail Safe and Dr. Strangelove War films? Of course older wars still count as War movies, not just the 20th and 21st century. Glory, The Charge of the Light Brigade, Kingdom of Heaven, Troy...all War films, yes? John Boorman's Hope & Glory has gotta be a War film. What about Branagh's Belfast? Do The Troubles in Ireland count as a War film? The code breakers of The Imitation Game, surely? But what about a complete ******** version like Enigma (2001)? Does historical accuracy matter at all? The three fans of John Woo's Code Talkers need to know that answer. How about The Manchurian Candidate, either version? Seven Days in May? Missing (1982)?

And yes, I think clearly comedy films about War, be they The Americanization of Emily and Jojo Rabbit or MASH and Catch-22 or The Great Dictator and Duck Soup would have to be eligible. But what about peace-time service comedies (Stripes) or non-military characters caught in war-like situations (Tropic Thunder)?


It all gets complicated.

So are Holocaust narratives like Schindler's List and The Pianist.

Yeah, probably Monday or Tuesday, depending on suggestions in here.

Definitely wanna give people the weekend to try to hash out exactly what the poll options should be.

:yup: :shifty:
It is Monday...

:yup: :shifty:
It is Monday...

As with all of these genres it is going to be tough on how to whittle them down, but in the case of those specifics, mostly no. If you are talking about Musicals with a capital M, that is a genre that is rooted in the theatre and can be loosely defined as movies consisting of a plot integrating musical numbers. In the Broadway sense this also almost always means that characters express themselves in song and dance, and when they do so it is often like a Shakespearean soliloquy where thoughts are spoken for the benefit of the audience but not the other characters on stage. Or if the entire town or room is taking part in the number, no conscious acknowledgment is made that things are being expressed musically.

A concert or a documentary would not be Musicals with a capital M. That seems pretty obvious. The tougher distinction would be biopics and movies about musicians. If you wanted to be strict I suppose a movie like Bohemian Rhapsody would not count as a Musical, but Rocketman would. All of the numbers in Bohemian Rhapsody are preformed on stages and in studios. In Rocketman many of the songs are performed as fantasies. But unlike documentaries and concert films versus the Musical with a capital M, I suspect we could all agree that when comparing movies like Bohemian Rhapsody and Rocketman, in the long run it is a distinction without a difference. At least for the purposes of one of our lists. Which would mean biopics that are dramas about musicians such as Coal Miner's Daughter and Walk the Line and Respect and Amadeus can be considered Musicals, and then of course that means those kinds of movies about fictitious musicians also count, like That Thing You Do and Almost Famous and A Star is Born and Crazy Heart.

And that should certainly increase participation in the list site wide. If you think Musicals with a capital M are stupid you can still fill your ballot with movies where absolutely nobody starts singing and dancing unless they are on a stage or writing a song somewhere. And that greatly dilutes the list since somebody like that won't even give the obvious, undisputed classics of the genre a chance, which means those who do love and appreciate the form and are more strict in their definitions have little to no shot of seeing more obscure Musicals make it. Which is going to be the problem with all of the remaining genres being discussed.

Once you allow the definition to be broadened what you have at the end isn't really the genre anymore anyway, so why bother? As a proper cinemaniac I would much rather have twenty or thirty people well-versed and passionate about a genre debate and make a list within agreed upon parameters than those thirty people plus another forty or fifty who at heart kind of hate that genre but will begrudgingly participate if you let them bring in things that kinda sorta maybe-ish fit if you squint.

But...here we are. Bring on the poll.

What movies would you say are not musicals?

How about these nominations from the Musical HoF that SilentVamp hosted, should they be allowed into a Musical Countdown?

1 Amadeus (Milos Forman 1984)
2 Walk the Line (James Mangold 2005)
2 Ray (Taylor Hackford 2004)
3 Coal Miners Daughter (Michael Apted 1980)
4 The Buddy Holly Story (Steve Rash 1978)
5 La Bamba (Luis Valdez 1987)
5 School of Rock (Richard Linklate 2003)
6 The Idolmaker (Taylor Hackford 1989)
7 The Commitments (Alan Parker 1991)
8 The Jazz Singer (Richard Fleischer 1980)
9 Sweet Dreams (Karel Reisz 1985)
10 The Wall (Alan Parker 1982)
11 Tenacious D Pick of Destiny (Lynch 2006
11 Eddie & the Cruisers(Martin Davidson 1983)

War movies are more than just combat movies. Surely The Best Years of Our Lives and Coming Home are War movies, even though there are no combat scenes in them. As is Downfall. As are POW stories like The Bridge on the River Kwai, Stalag 17 and The Great Escape. So are Holocaust narratives like Schindler's List and The Pianist. Gone with the Wind is surely a War movie. What about The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly? Getting back to combat, do only "real" wars count? If they do, do only dramatized versions of real battles and soldiers count? Saving Private Ryan, though set in the real battlefront, the story and its characters are fictional. Clearly Apocalypse Now is just about 110% fiction. What about Inglourious Basterds, that even changes the outcome of a real war? Still a War film? Kelly's Heroes and Three Kings are hybrids, heist films that take place on battlefields, so still War movies, correct? Fictional thrillers set during wartime like Eye of the Needle and 36 Hours? If you allow fictional characters and battles in real wars to count, how about battles and wars that are entirely fictional? The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is mostly The Battle of Helms frickin' Deep. Is that a War film? How about The Cold War? Aren't Fail Safe and Dr. Strangelove War films? Of course older wars still count as War movies, not just the 20th and 21st century. Glory, The Charge of the Light Brigade, Kingdom of Heaven, Troy...all War films, yes? John Boorman's Hope & Glory has gotta be a War film. What about Branagh's Belfast? Do The Troubles in Ireland count as a War film? The code breakers of The Imitation Game, surely? But what about a complete ******** version like Enigma (2001)? Does historical accuracy matter at all? The three fans of John Woo's Code Talkers need to know that answer. How about The Manchurian Candidate, either version? Seven Days in May? Missing (1982)?

And yes, I think clearly comedy films about War, be they The Americanization of Emily and Jojo Rabbit or MASH and Catch-22 or The Great Dictator and Duck Soup would have to be eligible. But what about peace-time service comedies (Stripes) or non-military characters caught in war-like situations (Tropic Thunder)?


It all gets complicated.

It sure does get complicating I agree with you there

I see no point in doing Fantasy honestly because LOTR would be your winner by default, no need to do the countdown now.

But not Tuesday