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ahwell 10-26-19 12:38 AM

Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Martin Scorsese doesn't think so apparently.

There's been a whole Hollywood war about Marvel being cinema that was started by a comment by Scorsese.

Link to one of many articles here:
https://www.etonline.com/martin-scor...clusive-135090

I'm not sure who's side to take, honestly. I don't like Marvel movies and I find they obstruct young people from seeing other possibly high quality films. Teens today generally only care about action/superhero movies... which is fine, but just today some of my friends and I tried to watch Taxi Driver and they got bored out of it in the first thirty minutes and said it was pointless and with no plot... which is a bit frustrating.

On the other hand, I think Scorsese is opening a can of worms that will come back to bite him. As a filmmaker, he's getting into dicey territory, especially since his own popularity has been on the downfall since... well, since Marvel/Superhero movies.

Other thoughts?

Steve Freeling 10-26-19 12:44 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Film is film and if it's made its way to a theater, then it is cinema, like it or not. Whether it's good or bad cinema is in the eye of the beholder.

ahwell 10-26-19 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Steve Freeling (Post 2043830)
Film is film and if it's made its way to a theater, then it is cinema, like it or not. Whether it's good or bad cinema is in the eye of the beholder.
Agreed, from a technical standpoint it's clearly cinema.

Siddon 10-26-19 01:00 AM

Yes...I mean really most films can be seen at home Marvel still makes films that you have to seen in the theater early on.



Scorsese bothers me less than Cameron or Spielberg because at the very least he's still making great films every year or so.


  1. You can't dismiss the films based on quality anymore, in the old days these big action set pieces could be passed off as popcorn fodder but Marvel has such high quality control you now have to find a different avenue.
  2. I don't know the difference between those Marvel films and say Raiders of the Lost Ark or Star Wars, they are trying to tell the same type of grandeous storytelling.
  3. Scorsese's taste as a film guy is different than his results as a filmmaker. He for instance loves The Leopard and Rocca and his Brothers and I hate those films.

Doolallyfrank 10-26-19 01:28 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
I wonder how many he's actually watched?
The cinema experience is different now, firstly it's expensive so you want there to be a big difference from your home setup. Superhero movies are the biggest jump for me, Star Wars too, I went to see Bohemian Rhapsody for the sound alone. For other movies I can wait 6 months and pay the same price to own it, Scorsese fits in that bracket for me

Citizen Rules 10-26-19 03:10 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Marvel movies are cinema, like hotdogs are cuisine.

pahaK 10-26-19 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2043840)
Marvel movies are cinema, like hotdogs are cuisine.
Kinda this. I disagree with Scorsese but I respect that he's honest.

MoreOrLess 10-26-19 03:23 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
I don't think there fundamentally any different to action blockbusters we've seen dominate the market for the last 40 years.

If his point is that Hollywood has become too focused on such films as the expense of investing in younger more adventurous talent then yes I'd agree but making it specifically about Marvel I think dilutes that point.

Watch_Tower 10-26-19 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by MoreOrLess (Post 2043842)
I don't think there fundamentally any different to action blockbusters we've seen dominate the market for the last 40 years.

If his point is that Hollywood has become too focused on such films as the expense of investing in younger more adventurous talent then yes I'd agree but making it specifically about Marvel I think dilutes that point.
I think that is what Scorsese wants to say, much like Spielberg did last year...I also believe it comes from an insecurity. These old men, who once dominated the box office no longer get the budgets or I assume, the wages they want and are no longer the centre piece of a yearly round of movies. Scorsese and Spielberg and angered by the success of Marvel because it dominates our screens and pop culture like Jaws, ET, Goodfellas and so on did 20+ years ago.

The worst part is, I personally have found Scorsese to be far more formulaic in the last 30 years than Marvel was in its initial stages. I know the Irishman has received a lot of positive reviews but will it be any different to Goodfellas, Casino, Wolf of Wallstreet and so on? I don't think so.

Oh, and if he doesn't like it, he doesn't have to watch it either.

banality 10-26-19 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Watch_Tower (Post 2043899)
I also believe it comes from an insecurity. These old men, who once dominated the box office no longer get the budgets or I assume, the wages they want and are no longer the centre piece of a yearly round of movies. Scorsese and Spielberg and angered by the success of Marvel because it dominates our screens and pop culture like Jaws, ET, Goodfellas and so on did 20+ years ago.
I think that's further than you could have authority to go.

Did you lot read what he said? It's not a dig at Marvel films really, he's saying they're not works of art - or do you disagree?

Iroquois 10-26-19 01:50 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Scorsese's last 30 years have not been nearly as formulaic as the MCU. Easy enough to cite a whopping four crime epics (one of which most people haven't even had a chance to judge yet) spaced out across that period, but that doesn't account for the likes of Silence or Kundun or The Age of Innocence or Hugo or Shutter Island...the list goes on. Compared to the MCU's "initial stages" (which extends how far? The notably rough Phase One? The more well-rounded but sequel-heavy Phase Two?), the dude's certainly mixed it up a lot compared to a franchise where even the high points tend to be distinguished by how they're trying to mimic non-superhero genres (e.g. Winter Soldier being sold as a conspiracy thriller).

Anyway, I'm with Scorsese on this one. As much as I have enjoyed MCU/superhero movies, I can't overlook how much they represent the increasingly homogeneous state of modern moviegoing (to say nothing of the predatory business practices that prop them up) - at that point, a pithy statement like "don't watch if you don't like" becomes irrelevant.

JoaoRodrigues 10-26-19 01:57 PM

Francis Ford Coppola went further and said Marvel films are trash. I think they are mad because they are having difficulties finding funding for certain movies that are not appealing to the big studios. Scorsese had that problem in that movie about the portuguese priests. They don't get funded because the masses don't want to see those movies, and that should be okay, if you're an artist, I mean, I never heard Picasso complaining people didn't went to galleries to at least see his paintings. These American cinematographers we elevated too highly are just silly, complaining about this and that, about more narrative movies, and this, and that, most of the genuine artistic cinema had were Europeans, Asiatics, some South Americans, and they didn't had enormous budgets to make films, they either adapt or didn't make them; so what's the problem here? This type of directors are trying to make there movies more attractive to grab more and more people, and that costs money, money they don't have. Jarmusch, for example, the iconic symbol of the American indies have to kick some of his own cash to make films, and the latest ones are the hardest, he said, that's what you get when you want to make films like The Dead Don't Die. About the subject:

cinema
/ˈsɪnɪmə,ˈsɪnɪmɑː/
a theater where films are shown for public entertainment.
the production of films as an art or industry.

MoreOrLess 10-26-19 02:49 PM

The basic point that Hollywood has become increasingly adverse to risk I can understand although I would say if your talking specifically about blockbuster franchises Marvel are not the worst offenders at all, there franchise has been built mostly on relatively unknown(to the wider public) characters and they have brought though several new directors and given them some freedom.

I look at Hollywood today though and the weakness for me isn't really in blockbusters, granted many poor ones are made but we've had fairly regular quality releases to balance that out. The weakness is much more in the ambitious mid budget area and honestly I think part of the problem their is that studios prefer to stick with guys like Scorsese, Spielberg and Ridley Scott using their past reps to sell their work when in reality their actually several decades past their best.

Added to that Hollywood is more in love than ever with the black slapping oscar bait drama, most of which get by on preaching to the choir whilst being very pedestrian.

banality 10-26-19 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by MoreOrLess (Post 2043842)
If his point is that Hollywood has become too focused on such films as the expense of investing in younger more adventurous talent then yes I'd agree but making it specifically about Marvel I think dilutes that point.
Well he was asked specifically about Marvel you see

banality 10-26-19 03:07 PM

You don't use a dictionary to define terms in an argument, dictionaries record usage. Scorsese is clearly using it in the same sense as when writers talk about 'literature', no?

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2043916)
Francis Ford Coppola went further and said Marvel films are trash. I think they are mad because they are having difficulties finding funding for certain movies that are not appealing to the big studios. Scorsese had that problem in that movie about the portuguese priests. They don't get funded because the masses don't want to see those movies, and that should be okay, if you're an artist, I mean, I never heard Picasso complaining people didn't went to galleries to at least see his paintings.
You don't think it's possible they're just being honest?

& Picasso didn't need millions of dollars per painting. Still, my thinking is we've seen this sort of thing before. Welles, for example, who was so clearly a genius, and so clearly should have been left alone (no matter what crazy thing he did).

Welles used his own money as well, so did Coppola on Apocalypse Now. Anyway money is only counters in the game vis a vis Hollywood. Nobody would go into the movies if they were really interested in money. If you're interested in money you'd go into a business in which you make bigger sums easier. The trouble is the pictures those directors like to make are not the pictures Hollywood producers, and particularly modern Hollywood producers, want to make.

Iroquois 10-26-19 03:09 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
As if Coppola didn't send himself broke by using his own money to fund Apocalypse Now when it ran into production problems and had to direct lots of for-hire stuff over the years to pay off his debts.

Besides, why should it be okay that the budgets are going to vapid commercial ventures with negligible artistic value (to say nothing of their dalliances with military propaganda), especially when so many of them are so readily accepted and defended by audiences as the best the form has to offer? There were people who wanted Robert Downey Jr. to get an Oscar nod for Endgame, after all. We shouldn't have to settle because this is what the invisible hand of the marketplace or whatever demands the most.

As for other countries, I would think it's because most of them can't really compete with Hollywood in terms of scale in the first place so they don't try. It's not like they don't make their own junk food cinema anyway - the difference being that they don't have the power to force it onto the rest of the world like Hollywood does, which is why most of the work that garners international acclaim has to be the best of the best to even get noticed on an international level. Besides, it's not like Scorsese doesn't champion world cinema incessantly to the point where that's one of his key arguments against this kind of blockbuster domination of cinemas and the cultural mainstream.

Citizen Rules 10-26-19 03:26 PM

Speaking of Welles & money...it's the same old story for the auteur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H9A9zTorrw

JoaoRodrigues 10-26-19 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by banality (Post 2043923)
You don't use a dictionary to define terms in an argument, dictionaries record usage. Scorsese is clearly using it in the same sense as when writers talk about 'literature', no?
No, a term is a term. He said they weren't cinema, so, I searched the meaning of the word cinema. If he had said instead: Marvel movies aren't artistic, I would ask him what is art in his opinion, and why he thinks everyone should enjoy and recognize art.

Originally Posted by banality (Post 2043923)
You don't think it's possible they're just being honest?
No. I think he thinks his being honest though. I never trust someone in the spotlight that openly, publicly goes against something popular in the same business as him, something that is the exact opposite. I think his mad for reasons he doesn't want to face. Marvel movies are trash artistically, and f*ck art, you don't have to enjoy art, you don't even have to recognize art. I don't like people that like to show erudition about something.

Originally Posted by banality (Post 2043923)
& Picasso didn't need millions of dollars per painting. Still, my thinking is we've seen this sort of thing before. Welles, for example, who was so clearly a genius, and so clearly should have been left alone (no matter what crazy thing he did).

Welles used his own money as well, so did Coppola on Apocalypse Now. Anyway money is only counters in the game vis a vis Hollywood. Nobody would go into the movies if they were really interested in money. If you're interested in money you'd go into a business in which you make bigger sums easier. The trouble is the pictures those directors like to make are not the pictures Hollywood producers, and particularly modern Hollywood producers, want to make.
(concerning the bold) And? The Hollywood producers don't want to make those kind of films because they can't understand those kind of films, like most people can't and that's why art is subjective and ignored (and that's the problem here). Those who don't understand art, are not able to create art, and they will hate it, Charles Buskowski said that. And what? I think you unconsciously reached the point I was trying to get at with your last text.

JoaoRodrigues 10-26-19 03:39 PM

I agree with most/all of the replies here, don't get me wrong, and I agree with both Scorsese and Coppola on there affirmations, but I also understand, that, that's just like my opinion. I'm just trying to examine why they said what they said, and that's the real problem here. People are focusing on Marvel, f*ck Marvel, the problem is that Marvel is highly profitable while directors like Scorsese and others don't get funding to make films. And what? Should these directors climb down there high horse and do what these newcomers in some cases independent directors are doing nowadays, and very successfully in my opinion? Are they already doing that? I don't know. What do you think?

banality 10-26-19 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2043930)
No, a term is a term. He said they weren't cinema, so, I searched the meaning of the word cinema. If he had said instead: Marvel movies aren't artistic, I would ask him what is art in his opinion, and why he thinks everyone should enjoy and recognize art.
Every word has connotations.

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2043930)
No. I think he thinks his being honest though. I never trust someone in the spotlight that openly, publicly goes against something popular in the same business as him, something that is the exact opposite. I think his mad for reasons he doesn't want to face. Marvel movies are trash artistically, and f*ck art, you don't have to enjoy art, you don't even have to recognize art.I don't like people that like to show erudition about something.
Seen anybody about it yet? Who's your therapist?
Joking, but I've learnt to dislike this argument when offered. Anyway Scorsese didn't say he was against people enjoying those films, he said they were like theme parks, I think.

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2043930)
(concerning the bold) And? The Hollywood producers don't want to make those kind of films because they can't understand those kind of films, like most people can't and that's why art is subjective. Those who don't understand art, are not able to create art, and they will hate it, Charles Buskowski said that. And what? I think you unconsciously reached the point I was trying to get at with your last text.
Well that's the trouble, isn't it? I've got nothing against Hollywood really, they rightly regard the artist as the enemy to their profession. But it is the problem for very individual filmmakers. The system is at great pains to denigrate such a person. And it happens everywhere, in varying degrees.

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2043932)
Should these directors climb down there high horse and do what these newcomers in some cases independent directors are doing nowadays, and very successfully in my opinion? Are they already doing that? I don't know. What do you think?
you don't have the answers sway

SeeingisBelieving 10-26-19 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2043930)
No, a term is a term. He said they weren't cinema, so, I searched the meaning of the word cinema. If he had said instead: Marvel movies aren't artistic, I would ask him what is art in his opinion, and why he thinks everyone should enjoy and recognize art.
Yeah, I'm taking it to mean that he doesn't think they're artistic, but we know that's not true.

Doolallyfrank 10-26-19 07:12 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Originally Posted by banality (Post 2043907)
Originally Posted by Watch_Tower (Post 2043899)
I also believe it comes from an insecurity. These old men, who once dominated the box office no longer get the budgets or I assume, the wages they want and are no longer the centre piece of a yearly round of movies. Scorsese and Spielberg and angered by the success of Marvel because it dominates our screens and pop culture like Jaws, ET, Goodfellas and so on did 20+ years ago.
I think that's further than you could have authority to go.

Did you lot read what he said? It's not a dig at Marvel films really, he's saying they're not works of art - or do you disagree?
I disagree, I would put forward Civil War, Infinity War and Endgame as examples of the high end of Marvel movies, some might argue that Ragnarok was up there artistically?

MoreOrLess 10-27-19 02:20 AM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2043932)
I agree with most/all of the replies here, don't get me wrong, and I agree with both Scorsese and Coppola on there affirmations, but I also understand, that, that's just like my opinion. I'm just trying to examine why they said what they said, and that's the real problem here. People are focusing on Marvel, f*ck Marvel, the problem is that Marvel is highly profitable while directors like Scorsese and others don't get funding to make films. And what? Should these directors climb down there high horse and do what these newcomers in some cases independent directors are doing nowadays, and very successfully in my opinion? Are they already doing that? I don't know. What do you think?
I think you could definitely argue in some respects the current environment is actually more favourable to lower budget art cinema than it has been since the 60's. You have funding and distribution networks in place for such cinema that didn't really exist to the same degree in the past. The current environment in cinema actually reminds me quite a lot of the situation in the music business in the 80's with a very two tier approach between the money making megaliths and the alternative music scene.

Again to me the problem seems more that the middle of the market is being squeezed out. Theres such a gulf between the two worlds and honestly I think Marty's post millennium films almost show you the problem, shifting into $100 million+ budgeted monsters and having to shift towards the conventional as a result.

What I'd like to see more of is your Paul Thomas Anderson level cinema, budgets decent enough to not being limited massively in scale without being so vast they limit ambition.

Iroquois 10-27-19 02:32 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
The problem being that even the "high end" of Marvel still falls way short of what the cinematic medium can accomplish as an art form. Scorsese used the phrase "cinema of human beings" as his standard because Marvel hardly deals in anything more complex than the heroes fighting villains over MacGuffins and maybe learning some very straightforward lessons along the way, whereas the kind of films that Scorsese talks about deal with much more complicated subjects and don't settle for simple solutions to simple problems. Even Marvel's own attempts at complexity have their problems, especially when it comes to making deeper villains that either make too good a point for the heroes to truly argue with (Killmonger/Vulture) or whose thoroughly villainous plans are hardly challenged on their own merits and thus engender an unwarranted level of sympathy (Thanos). Infinity War and Endgame in particular just amount to a bunch of characters fighting over who gets to keep some magic rocks - the level of artistry involved in that is definitely questionable.

JoaoRodrigues 10-27-19 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 2044008)
Infinity War and Endgame in particular just amount to a bunch of characters fighting over who gets to keep some magic rocks - the level of artistry involved in that is definitely questionable.
This. It's very questionable. In my opinion it have none. But the movie could be seen as an analogy to the current situation of our planet Earth. Our planet doesn't produce enough resources to the overpopulation we have, and we are destroying the planet and also having populations with difficulties. We have this character Thanos making a sacrifice out of love, according to him, to save our way of life and remove suffering, disease and famine, trying to keep a balance. Obviously none of the characters could have empathy, it's a comic book movie after all, but I had empathy with the character, and I believe other people also had. I mean, some director out there could have made some dramatic movie with the same subject, more shuttle, and many would call it art.

Daniel M 10-27-19 06:43 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
I agree with the sentiment of what Scorsese is saying, in that I don't enjoy Marvel films really. In my opinion they are bad cinema.

Funny how everyone is acting as if Scorsese represents the highest moral authority on all things cinema, like he is the all knowing genius whose opinions can't be challenged. As Iro has mentioned, his films are pretty straightforward themselves. In terms of being cinematic they are hardly revolutionary or inventive. A lot of them are very enjoyable but there are many many filmmakers past and present who I think are more interesting cinematically than Martin Scorsese.

Siddon 10-27-19 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 2044008)
The problem being that even the "high end" of Marvel still falls way short of what the cinematic medium can accomplish as an art form. Scorsese used the phrase "cinema of human beings" as his standard because Marvel hardly deals in anything more complex than the heroes fighting villains over MacGuffins and maybe learning some very straightforward lessons along the way, whereas the kind of films that Scorsese talks about deal with much more complicated subjects and don't settle for simple solutions to simple problems. Even Marvel's own attempts at complexity have their problems, especially when it comes to making deeper villains that either make too good a point for the heroes to truly argue with (Killmonger/Vulture) or whose thoroughly villainous plans are hardly challenged on their own merits and thus engender an unwarranted level of sympathy (Thanos). Infinity War and Endgame in particular just amount to a bunch of characters fighting over who gets to keep some magic rocks - the level of artistry involved in that is definitely questionable.

Thanos isn't sympathetic he's empathetic big difference. Marvel is telling serialized story over the course of years and multiple films, each installment is it's own entity can also be viewed as a whole. One of the quotes I always remember about Scorsese is that cinema and film is about shared emotions the commonality of us as people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRyvZpF2czs


That is an engaged audience that feels something. You have a point in Avengers Endgame when all the female characters lined up, many small characters that really weren't built up or lead their own films. In the theater women cheered when they saw that, this was a moment when a film gave them a sense of esteem and that has value.


Martin Scorsese is a great film maker but a great artist isn't necessarily a great critic, and we all have things that we like.


https://www.indiewire.com/gallery/ma...es/8-1-2-1963/

Iroquois 10-27-19 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2044024)
This. It's very questionable. In my opinion it have none. But the movie could be seen as an analogy to the current situation of our planet Earth. Our planet doesn't produce enough resources to the overpopulation we have, and we are destroying the planet and also having populations with difficulties. We have this character Thanos making a sacrifice out of love, according to him, to save our way of life and remove suffering, disease and famine, trying to keep a balance. Obviously none of the characters could have empathy, it's a comic book movie after all, but I had empathy with the character, and I believe other people also had. I mean, some director out there could have made some dramatic movie with the same subject, more shuttle, and many would call it art.
Cool motive, still murder (and also that kind of kill-humans-save-planet motive dates all the way back to Moore-era Bond movies). I don't think he ever does anything to truly deserve anyone's empathy and even moments like his "sacrifice" are affecting less because of what they mean to him specifically than because of what it means for actual sympathetic characters. Likewise, there's the obvious flaw in that he thinks the solution to overpopulation is to cull the population instead of increase resources so his plan is insane from the jump (and not surprising given that he's a lifelong warrior who has known nothing but death so more death is what seems like a reasonable solution to him).

Originally Posted by Daniel M (Post 2044026)
I agree with the sentiment of what Scorsese is saying, in that I don't enjoy Marvel films really. In my opinion they are bad cinema.

Funny how everyone is acting as if Scorsese represents the highest moral authority on all things cinema, like he is the all knowing genius whose opinions can't be challenged. As Iro has mentioned, his films are pretty straightforward themselves. In terms of being cinematic they are hardly revolutionary or inventive. A lot of them are very enjoyable but there are many many filmmakers past and present who I think are more interesting cinematically than Martin Scorsese.
Where did I say that?

Originally Posted by Siddon (Post 2044029)
Thanos isn't sympathetic he's empathetic big difference. Marvel is telling serialized story over the course of years and multiple films, each installment is it's own entity can also be viewed as a whole. One of the quotes I always remember about Scorsese is that cinema and film is about shared emotions the commonality of us as people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRyvZpF2czs


That is an engaged audience that feels something. You have a point in Avengers Endgame when all the female characters lined up, many small characters that really weren't built up or lead their own films. In the theater women cheered when they saw that, this was a moment when a film gave them a sense of esteem and that has value.


Martin Scorsese is a great film maker but a great artist isn't necessarily a great critic, and we all have things that we like.


https://www.indiewire.com/gallery/ma...es/8-1-2-1963/
You're right, I meant empathetic. My point still stands.

It has been interesting to note how that particular all-woman shot has at once been seen as a cool moment but has also drawn criticism from both sides of the aisle for how it is kind of an empty contrivance due to most of the characters not having any established relationships with one another or how they all happened to be in such close proximity. Again, the question of how much substance you can sacrifice for a simple crowd-pleasing moment and whether or not that kind of fan service is an adequate substitute for quote-unquote Cinema, especially since you need to have seen another 20-odd movies for it to have any significant impact.

Ami-Scythe 10-29-19 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by ahwell (Post 2043829)
Martin Scorsese doesn't think so apparently.

There's been a whole Hollywood war about Marvel being cinema that was started by a comment by Scorsese.

Link to one of many articles here:
https://www.etonline.com/martin-scor...clusive-135090

I'm not sure who's side to take, honestly. I don't like Marvel movies and I find they obstruct young people from seeing other possibly high quality films. Teens today generally only care about action/superhero movies... which is fine, but just today some of my friends and I tried to watch Taxi Driver and they got bored out of it in the first thirty minutes and said it was pointless and with no plot... which is a bit frustrating.

On the other hand, I think Scorsese is opening a can of worms that will come back to bite him. As a filmmaker, he's getting into dicey territory, especially since his own popularity has been on the downfall since... well, since Marvel/Superhero movies.

Other thoughts?
This is a tough conversation for me. I know that the MCU has a hand in the cesspool that cinema has become but at the same time I couldn't say that a Marvel movie is not a movie. Scorsese calls them amusement parks but aren't films supposed to be amusing? There's nothing wrong with a film that doesn't star a crime boss or blah blah blahs about some issue in America. However, at the same time, I know that his problem is the quantity of it. If someone is fed an insane amount of junk food, they're not going to be able to sit down to enjoy and appreciate nourishment. But the problem is also that in this case of constant junk, yelling isn't going to help. I too found Taxi Driver boring but that wasn't because there wasn't action or a missing plot, it's just a really tired concept. Oh, society. Oh, rich people. It gets old after the 50,000,000th time. Why don't these guys just get together and stop feeding us WW2 rations with our countless pounds of candy and make something nutritious and delicious? (I'm tired sorry)

Ami-Scythe 10-29-19 04:24 PM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 2044071)
Cool motive, still murder (and also that kind of kill-humans-save-planet motive dates all the way back to Moore-era Bond movies). I don't think he ever does anything to truly deserve anyone's empathy and even moments like his "sacrifice" are affecting less because of what they mean to him specifically than because of what it means for actual sympathetic characters. Likewise, there's the obvious flaw in that he thinks the solution to overpopulation is to cull the population instead of increase resources so his plan is insane from the jump (and not surprising given that he's a lifelong warrior who has known nothing but death so more death is what seems like a reasonable solution to him).
I'm just happy to see someone not praising Thanos.

Watch_Tower 10-29-19 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by banality (Post 2043907)
I think that's further than you could have authority to go.

Did you lot read what he said? It's not a dig at Marvel films really, he's saying they're not works of art - or do you disagree?
Authority? What do you mean? Just because I don't have an official title that states I am a film critic doesn't mean I can not voice an opinion, nor does it mean that opinion is any more or less important.

I have actually read what he most recently said, where he states that Marvel films are "a new form of art" and that "It's something different from films that are shown normally in theaters, that's all".

First off, art is subjective so there is no point even discussing that (the ugly Wolf of Wallstreet would not be art in my estimation) but the second comment is the most bizarre. Theme park cinema, as he calls it is the norm and always has been. The first films were not conveyors of plot but of audio/visual design, created to excite and entice. Throughout the so called golden age of Hollywood, it was always about big, expensive, visually stunning productions. The changes that occurred in the 60s and most importantly in the 70s and early 80s were not the norm but the exception.

Cinema has come full circle to having these big, tent pole pieces that are now available almost all year round. I don't like all of them myself but you know what I can do? I can refuse to go see them (as I did with Black Panther, Antman, Captain Marvel etc). But do deny they are "cinema" is crazy, to deny they are art is subjective.

thegoldenfatty 10-30-19 05:08 AM

Avengers Endgame made nearly $2.8 billion worldwide, and when adjusted for inflation would be the 4th biggest worldwide.

Somebody out there likes them.

pahaK 10-30-19 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by banality (Post 2043907)
I think that's further than you could have authority to go.
What sort of an authority does anyone need to have an opinion?

Originally Posted by banality (Post 2043907)
Did you lot read what he said? It's not a dig at Marvel films really, he's saying they're not works of art - or do you disagree?
I do disagree. To me art and entertainment are practically synonymous. I don't personally like majority of Marvel films but that doesn't mean I don't consider them art (or entertainment) - they're just subjectively bad art (or entertainment).

JoaoRodrigues 10-30-19 05:57 AM

Originally Posted by pahaK (Post 2044601)
To me art and entertainment are practically synonymous.
To me they’re practically opposites.

pahaK 10-30-19 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2044602)
To me they’re practically opposites.
So the greatest works of art are the ones that you hate the most to watch/hear/read? And vice versa, everything you enjoy is just crap?

JoaoRodrigues 10-30-19 06:28 AM

Entertainment is to satisfy monotony, that's what strikes me when someone says entertainment. I think art is a way of reaching maximum empathy in some way, but you can still like something you can't have empathy with. From an artist standpoint, art is a way of expressing, can be love, hate or none of those, but it's something he thinks he must do. Other way might be not doing it, and no one would understand why he does what he does and thinks what he thinks, and that would be alright anyway.

entertainment
/ɛntəˈteɪnm(ə)nt/
noun
the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.

amusement
/əˈmjuːzm(ə)nt/
noun
the state or experience of finding something funny.

ScarletLion 10-30-19 06:31 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
I strongly agree with the artists interpretation of what is art. That is to say that if I put a bunch of old newspapers down the toilet, take a photo of it and call it an art installation - then it IS. No matter the quality.

Comic book movies don't interest me in the slightest. They are formulaic trash that value money making above any sort of integrity and almost everything else. But they are cinema. I'd rather my children get into movies through the superhero route than not at all.

JoaoRodrigues 10-30-19 06:37 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
If art is something to be entertaining, and by definition amuse you, make you laugh, "happy" in other words, let's assume in motion pictures that is what we're talking here, what would we say about Bergman for instance. I, and many others are more depressed after they watch one of his movies, and we still enjoy the artistic magnitude of his work.

pahaK 10-30-19 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2044609)
If art is something to be entertaining, and by definition amuse you, make you laugh, "happy" in other words, let's assume in motion pictures that is what we're talking here, what would we say about Bergman for instance. I, and many others are more depressed after they watch one of his movies, and we still enjoy the artistic magnitude of his work.
I love how you're cherry picking even the very definition you gave earlier in order to twist my words to something you can more easily debate against.

entertainment
/ɛntəˈteɪnm(ə)nt/
noun
the action of providing or being provided with amusement or enjoyment.
So "by definition" entertaining doesn't need to amuse or make you laugh. It can also provide enjoyment like you mention in regards to Bergman. With the definition you provide Bergman is as much art as it's entertainment.

JoaoRodrigues 10-30-19 07:45 AM

Art, for me, is not expressing how you see the world, many people do that and call it art, that's banal, it's ordinary, it's what commercial movies do all along, most Marvel movies are so crappy they don't even do that, an artist show is private world, and that's why I give importance to art, might be one of the only things I actually give importance to, because we all know we are here for a short period and every action we take is based on that. I don't give any importance to my opinion, or your opinion, or how you see the world, I give importance on how you make me see your private world. When we say the word "world" we are expressing our opinion on what we believe the world is, that's the same with the word reality, when we want to say everything without formulating an opinion about it, we say universe. Art is not entertainment to me, if it's for you, you have a different perspective on what art is, and that's okay.

Ami-Scythe 10-30-19 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2044614)
Art, for me, is not expressing how you see the world, many people do that and call it art, that's banal, it's ordinary, it's what commercial movies do all along, most Marvel movies are so crappy they don't even do that, an artist show is private world, and that's why I give importance to art, might be one of the only things I actually give importance to, because we all know we are here for a short period and every action we take is based on that. I don't give any importance to my opinion, or your opinion, or how you see the world, I give importance on how you make me see your private world. When we say the word "world" we are expressing our opinion on what we believe the world is, that's the same with the word reality, when we want to say everything without formulating an opinion about it, we say universe. Art is not entertainment to me, if it's for you, you have a different perspective on what art is, and that's okay.
So what exactly is art to you? Is my avatar art or is it invalid because it's how I see myself?

JoaoRodrigues 10-30-19 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Ami-Scythe (Post 2044618)
So what exactly is art to you? Is my avatar art or is it invalid because it's how I see myself?
Not invalid in any way. It all goes on the honesty you put on seeing yourself and how you manage to express that, will either make me see myself in your honest image, something I realize I also have and never thought about, or actually thought about and never knew how to express it, or didn't even wanted to express it for various reasons, didn't want to conceive that image of myself, it takes courage, or it can make me see something different that I never saw before. I talk about honesty, because if it's not honest, people will tell, and that honesty, I believe, comes on realizing you already lost, we all did, so there's nothing else to really lose, and you can fell liberated and see beauty, or the opposite. Honesty is difficult, is really difficult, true honesty. By honesty, for me, I mean, see beyond the mask, the persona.

Ami-Scythe 10-30-19 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2044619)
Not invalid in any way. It all goes on the honesty you put on seeing yourself and how you manage to express that, will either make me see myself in your honest image, something I realize I also have and never thought about, or actually thought about and never knew how to express it, or didn't even wanted to express it for various reasons, didn't want to conceive that image of myself, it takes courage, or it can make me see something different that I never saw before. I talk about honesty, because if it's not honest, people will tell, and that honesty, I believe, comes on realizing you already lost, we all did, so there's nothing else to really lose, and you can fell liberated and see beauty, or the opposite. Honesty is difficult, is really difficult, true honesty.
So is it invalid because it's an opinion or because it's not honest? I don't know if you've seen my channel but I'm pretty sure Shinizou is all the parts of me I usually keep hidden away. While others typically make up a personality for the internet, the internet gives me the voice I don't have in real life. But that's not necessarily the thing that baffles me. It's the amazing works that people have done in cinema that's being disregarded because apparently art and entertainment can't be the same thing? And if it has any opinions in it it's invalid? That's a really insane claim so I just really want to understand what it is you're trying to say. Every artist's work is unique because their art is a direct passage to who they are. You can learn just about everything based on what people decide to create. So in other words, every other work of art has a shard of opinion or perspective in it. We are all alone in in our minds and art is a reflection of that. You're saying that almost all art isn't art because it entails a unique perspective of some kind and that is honestly insulting.

JoaoRodrigues 10-30-19 10:40 AM

Yes, I've seen your channel, not really very deep, but I've seen some of the videos. I agree with a philosopher, well, he didn't call himself that, that's what a artist normally does, the same thing with a master, he never calls himself master, other's call him that; anyway, he said, a great poet is not someone that writes great poems, is someone that managed to make his life a great poem. If I understand what you wrote, and I believe I did some parts, we are overall in the same tune. If you read some things of what I've being unpopularity saying in the off topic discussions, I believe everything is an opinion, so, I guess that answers it, the part about being honest is really an introspection, a self-judgement.

banality 10-30-19 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Watch_Tower (Post 2044522)
Authority? What do you mean? Just because I don't have an official title that states I am a film critic doesn't mean I can not voice an opinion, nor does it mean that opinion is any more or less important.
Originally Posted by pahaK (Post 2044601)
What sort of an authority does anyone need to have an opinion?
Er, if you care to look at what I replied to; 'it comes from an insecurity' & 'Scorsese and Spielberg and angered by the success of Marvel' that's a conjecture.

Originally Posted by Watch_Tower (Post 2044522)
First off, art is subjective so there is no point even discussing that
I don't know if that's true.

Originally Posted by Watch_Tower (Post 2044522)
The first films were not conveyors of plot but of audio/visual design, created to excite and entice.
Hardly audio, I should have thought.

Originally Posted by Watch_Tower (Post 2044522)
But do deny they are "cinema" is crazy, to deny they are art is subjective.
Course it isn't. Even during the golden age people had ideas about what cinema is (Andre Bazin wrote two volumes about that).

Yoda 10-30-19 02:22 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Marty's clearly wrong in a literal sense. I don't think there's much argument there. But we also know what he means, and it's obvious he's sort of exaggerating for effect, so I'm happy to say he's simply overstating things and then immediately move on to what he's clearly saying: that they're not art, that they're disposable, blah blah blah.

I don't really agree on that front, either. They're not works of high art as that term is commonly understood, but then, I think the ways we define high art are silly. I think people dramatically undervalue the difficulty and artistic potency of speaking to large numbers of disparate people, which can be a beautiful thing, even if doing so necessitates making something with less potential depth.

Re: opinions. "Everything's just an opinion" is one of those things that's mostly true, but also often just a cover for not being informed or not thinking a position through properly. As an abstract point about the nature of truth, sure, it matters, but it shouldn't be deployed to handwave away inconsistencies or opinions that don't seem to make sense.

Captain Steel 10-30-19 03:13 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
It reminds me of the word diet. Everyone's on a diet - it's simply the consumption of food (or the restriction of such) and eating patterns of each individual whether it's a regular pattern or completely at random. There are controlled diets and uncontrolled diets, diets that focus on health or weight loss, or which only focus on sating an appetite or eating what tastes good even when one is not hungry. Some diets consist of binge eating and gluttony!

We know what you mean when you say you're on a diet, but everyone's on a diet even if they pay no attention to what they consume.

MoreOrLess 10-30-19 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 2044008)
The problem being that even the "high end" of Marvel still falls way short of what the cinematic medium can accomplish as an art form. Scorsese used the phrase "cinema of human beings" as his standard because Marvel hardly deals in anything more complex than the heroes fighting villains over MacGuffins and maybe learning some very straightforward lessons along the way, whereas the kind of films that Scorsese talks about deal with much more complicated subjects and don't settle for simple solutions to simple problems. Even Marvel's own attempts at complexity have their problems, especially when it comes to making deeper villains that either make too good a point for the heroes to truly argue with (Killmonger/Vulture) or whose thoroughly villainous plans are hardly challenged on their own merits and thus engender an unwarranted level of sympathy (Thanos). Infinity War and Endgame in particular just amount to a bunch of characters fighting over who gets to keep some magic rocks - the level of artistry involved in that is definitely questionable.
Is Marvel really operating at a lower level than the blockbuster medium as a whole though? Marty's comments seem to imply some significant shift which I don't think has happened.

I tend to think that actually their better work is towards the upper end of what blockbuster cinema has produced. Not sure they've created something as finely crafted as say Raiders of the Lost Ark but I would say in terms of characterisation and drama they above the typical standard we get.

Part of why I don't think the tone of his comment is very helpful is that it seems to have played into a lot of peoples views that cinemas worth is judged by its "edginess". That the problem with Marvel is down to these films being brightly coloured family blockbusters when honestly the Russo's films have more dramatic substance to them for me than Nolan's Batman ever did.

As far as Endgame goes I actually felt the first hour of that film was some of the best work Marvel has ever done and a good demonstration of why the main attraction of the films isn't CGI action but rather character interaction. Seeing these character actually dealing with there failure was I felt very effective indeed and the sense that Thanos's actions hadn't given rise to some bright new world, they'd infected society with a sense of loss that was corrosive.

Again I think the real issue would be more Disney's dominance of the market and lack of investment in cinema outside of blockbusters and of other studios trying desperately to copy Marvel with very limited success producing a lot of bad cinema.

Yoda 10-30-19 05:59 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Yeah, I think it's better than blockbuster stuff has been in a long time. There's this weird, backwards thing where the closer mainstream stuff comes to being thoughtful, the more it gets criticized for being thoughtful. The Nolan Batman films are a perfect example: they're clearly a lot smarter than a lot of blockbusters of the past, but I think they get more eye rolling on that front than those others. I think it's an aspirational thing: oh, they think they're more thoughtful (or are recognized as such), so however they're failing to life up to your art house fare is magnified and amplified.

MoreOrLess 10-31-19 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2044768)
Yeah, I think it's better than blockbuster stuff has been in a long time. There's this weird, backwards thing where the closer mainstream stuff comes to being thoughtful, the more it gets criticized for being thoughtful. The Nolan Batman films are a perfect example: they're clearly a lot smarter than a lot of blockbusters of the past, but I think they get more eye rolling on that front than those others. I think it's an aspirational thing: oh, they think they're more thoughtful (or are recognized as such), so however they're failing to life up to your art house fare is magnified and amplified.
I mean I can see the reason for some of it with Nolan films as you do get some rather caustic fans holding them up as the ultimate example of quality cinema. That said though I think there is a certain condescension that often sets in when pop culture attempts dramatic or thematic depth.

I do have to say with Marty as well you look at his work after the early 80's and really much of it is very much on the entertainment side. Something like Goodfellas is a very well made him but really is there much depth to it? not for me, its mostly about an entertaining expose of gangsters lives.

JoaoRodrigues 10-31-19 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2044683)
Re: opinions. "Everything's just an opinion" is one of those things that's mostly true, but also often just a cover for not being informed or not thinking a position through properly. As an abstract point about the nature of truth, sure, it matters, but it shouldn't be deployed to handwave away inconsistencies or opinions that don't seem to make sense.
I would totally agree with you not that long ago. I would be mad when people made a point about things that didn't had anything to do with another, one was, what I believed, a fact, and the other, one opinion, so I diminished the value of opinions in a way. I believed the fact was completely irrefutable, so I had the truth in my pocket, the few couldn't argue against something the many agreed to be a fact, many things became a convention, like we all know the earth is flat, and a man with the truth in his pocket is the most dangerous man on Earth. I would be mad when I was discussing movies with friends and they would say they didn't saw, let's assume, Taxi Driver and then talk about Hunger Games calling it one of the best movies made in the 21st century, and any argument I tried to make would end up with: this is my opinion and it's all about opinions. That would make me mad. Everything changed when I got into philosophy, eastern religions and science in general. In a way, I shaped them to fit the image I wanted, but at least I know that, I don't think they are any truth. I make my picture, and I share it, and that picture is not done, but it would need much more than facts to change it, because, the creator is more important, the who and why, that's why I don't give any importance to television information, because I don't trust the who and I know the why, at least I think I know. This is not something you haven't already heard before, not sure why I'm saying it again, not to make any arguing.

Yoda 10-31-19 08:41 AM

Originally Posted by MoreOrLess (Post 2044851)
I mean I can see the reason for some of it with Nolan films as you do get some rather caustic fans holding them up as the ultimate example of quality cinema.
Yeah, I mentioned this a couple months back, but this, I think, is what's really going on: people stop talking about the films and start talking about the people talking about the films. So people try to "balance" other people's over-effusiveness by saying something is bad. I first recall seeing it with The Matrix, which is a great, moderately smart film, which got a lot of flack not because it was bad or mindless, but because a lot of teenagers used it as an intro to philosophy and others saw it, consciously or otherwise, as their job to average that out by dumping on it, I guess.

Originally Posted by MoreOrLess (Post 2044851)
That said though I think there is a certain condescension that often sets in when pop culture attempts dramatic of thematic depth.
Yeah, definitely, the mere attempt opens them up to more criticism than much less thoughtful films, which seems like a bad thing to encourage. I think there's as much stupid stuff as ever out there, but I also think moderately intelligent things are making tons of money now, at least sometimes.

Yoda 10-31-19 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2044852)
I would totally agree with you not that long ago. I would be mad when people made a point about things that didn't had anything to do with another, one was, what I believed, a fact, and the other, one opinion, so I diminished the value of opinions in a way. I believed the fact was completely irrefutable, so I had the truth in my pocket, the few couldn't argue against something the many agreed to be a fact, many things became a convention, like we all know the earth is flat, and a man with the truth in his pocket is the most dangerous man on Earth. I would be mad when I was discussing movies with friends and they would say they didn't saw, let's assume, Taxi Driver and then talk about Hunger Games calling it one of the best movies made in the 21st century, and any argument I tried to make would end up with: this is my opinion and it's all about opinions. That would make me mad. Everything changed when I got into philosophy, eastern religions and science in general. In a way, I shaped them to fit the image I wanted, but at least I know that, I don't think they are any truth. I make my picture, and I share it, and that picture is not done, but it would need much more than facts to change it, because, the creator is more important, the who and why, that's why I don't give any importance to television information, because I don't trust the who and I know the why, at least I think I know. This is not something you haven't already heard before, not sure why I'm saying it again, not to make any arguing.
To the degree the subjectivity of opinions is used to humble us, it is a good notion. To the degree we use it to be intellectually lazy, or absolve of us having to be informed or thoughtful, it is not. It's all in how you use it.

MoreOrLess 10-31-19 09:02 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2044866)
Yeah, I mentioned this a couple months back, but this, I think, is what's really going on: people stop talking about the films and start talking about the people talking about the films. So people try to "balance" other people's over-effusiveness by saying something is bad. I first recall seeing it with The Matrix, which is a great, moderately smart film, which got a lot of flack not because it was bad or mindless, but because a lot of teenagers used it as an intro to philosophy and others saw it, consciously or otherwise, as their job to average that out by dumping on it, I guess.

Yeah, definitely, the mere attempt opens them up to more criticism than much less thoughtful films, which seems like a bad thing to encourage. I think there's as much stupid stuff as ever out there, but I also think moderately intelligent things are making tons of money now, at least sometimes.
I would try and limit any negative comment more to situations were such people were actually present rather than disliking someone like Nolan as a whole. I mean I wouldn't personally say he's made a truly great piece of cinema but pretty much everything he's done has been of good quality.

Again there are definitely issues with cinema that you could argue Marvel's success plays into less directly but in terms of the films themselves? I think their(and Pixar's) success in recent years especially has been a welcome return to people actually valuing quality blockbusters over the cynical dross that's been put out by a lot of other studios. That is definitely one benefit of the net age, its become much harder to polish a turd in the fashion Hollywood had become incredible successful at in the 90's and early 00's.

Yoda 10-31-19 09:22 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Yeah, Pixar is a really good example to throw into this mix. :up: Even though that's not what comes to mind when we think of blockbusters, perhaps, I think it shows the way quality has mostly gone up in a lot of highly successful films.

JoaoRodrigues 10-31-19 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2044867)
To the degree the subjectivity of opinions is used to humble us, it is a good notion. To the degree we use it to be intellectually lazy, or absolve of us having to be informed or thoughtful, it is not. It's all in how you use it.
Okay. I think everything is around how we see the world. Doing it intellectually, that's the same as saying scientifically, science being a method of description, an art of definition, of getting things to be black and white, getting the unknown, the wiggly into patterns, regularity, known and controlled things. The term fact, intellectual and science are very interlinked. I'm not bond to follow it as an absolute truth, I would be very hard, not flexible, not open, because, even science contradicts itself everyday, something they considered a fact, something that is common sense, is later proven wrong, some of the biggest scientific discoveries were made that way. There is nothing infallible and when there is something deeply rooted, a convention, you should start wondering about it. I don't know anything, I don't have certainty about anything, don't even about death, because I only know death as an anticipation of something I saw in other people. What I'm trying to say, is, there are various forms of understanding things. About being informed, you already know my opinion on information.

Yoda 10-31-19 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by JoaoRodrigues (Post 2044874)
Okay. I think everything is around how we see the world. Doing it intellectually, that's the same as saying scientifically, science being a method of description, an art of definition, of getting things to be black and white, getting the unknown, the wiggly into patterns, regularity, known and controlled things. The term fact, intellectual and science are very interlinked. I'm not bond to follow it as an absolute truth, I would be very hard, not flexible, not open, because, even science contradicts itself everyday, something they considered a fact, something that is common sense, is later proven wrong, some of the biggest scientific discoveries were made that way. There is nothing infallible and when there is something deeply rooted, a convention, you should start wondering about it. I don't know anything, I don't have certainty about anything, don't even about death, because I only know death as an anticipation of something I saw in other people. What I'm trying to say, is, there are various forms of understanding things. About being informed, you already know my opinion on information.
True uncertainty/skepticism is self-refuting, since it must be applied even to itself, which is functionally impossible. But as for the inherent subjectivity of things, you ought to be able to see that my replies are already accepting that premise, but then move past that into an observation about how we incorporate that into what we think and say.

So, my previous response seems like the best response to this, again: if what you're saying is used in the service of humility, it's great. If it's used to avoid being thoughtful or informed, it's bad.

ScarletLion 10-31-19 10:18 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
This is literally the most interesting, intellectual and philosophical conversation ever to have risen from anything connected with Marvel movies.

omermirza 10-31-19 11:04 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
of course its cinema what else it would be i wonder..

Citizen Rules 10-31-19 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by omermirza (Post 2044893)
of course its cinema what else it would be i wonder..
Mind control, that's what Marvel movies are about. There an insidious plot to rewire millennial brains so that they become mass consumers of big business products. Thus taking away their finer sense of taste, which then removes their desire for choice. This is the first step in a conglomerate Big Brother type government....where the evil empire aka: the magical monopoly of Disney terrorizes everyone with though-control police donning Mickey Mouse mask and whirling blackjacks made out of bubble gum.

Yoda 11-05-19 05:32 PM

Marty wrote an editorial in the New York Times clarifying his remarks. I've bolded some of the most significant portions since it's a little long:

When I was in England in early October, I gave an interview to Empire magazine. I was asked a question about Marvel movies. I answered it. I said that I’ve tried to watch a few of them and that they’re not for me, that they seem to me to be closer to theme parks than they are to movies as I’ve known and loved them throughout my life, and that in the end, I don’t think they’re cinema.

Some people seem to have seized on the last part of my answer as insulting, or as evidence of hatred for Marvel on my part. If anyone is intent on characterizing my words in that light, there’s nothing I can do to stand in the way.

Many franchise films are made by people of considerable talent and artistry. You can see it on the screen. The fact that the films themselves don’t interest me is a matter of personal taste and temperament. I know that if I were younger, if I’d come of age at a later time, I might have been excited by these pictures and maybe even wanted to make one myself. But I grew up when I did and I developed a sense of movies — of what they were and what they could be — that was as far from the Marvel universe as we on Earth are from Alpha Centauri.

For me, for the filmmakers I came to love and respect, for my friends who started making movies around the same time that I did, cinema was about revelation — aesthetic, emotional and spiritual revelation. It was about characters — the complexity of people and their contradictory and sometimes paradoxical natures, the way they can hurt one another and love one another and suddenly come face to face with themselves.

It was about confronting the unexpected on the screen and in the life it dramatized and interpreted, and enlarging the sense of what was possible in the art form.

And that was the key for us: it was an art form. There was some debate about that at the time, so we stood up for cinema as an equal to literature or music or dance. And we came to understand that the art could be found in many different places and in just as many forms — in “The Steel Helmet” by Sam Fuller and “Persona” by Ingmar Bergman, in “It’s Always Fair Weather” by Stanley Donen and Gene Kelly and “Scorpio Rising” by Kenneth Anger, in “Vivre Sa Vie” by Jean-Luc Godard and “The Killers” by Don Siegel.

Or in the films of Alfred Hitchcock — I suppose you could say that Hitchcock was his own franchise. Or that he was our franchise. Every new Hitchcock picture was an event. To be in a packed house in one of the old theaters watching “Rear Window” was an extraordinary experience: It was an event created by the chemistry between the audience and the picture itself, and it was electrifying.

And in a way, certain Hitchcock films were also like theme parks. I’m thinking of “Strangers on a Train,” in which the climax takes place on a merry-go-round at a real amusement park, and “Psycho,” which I saw at a midnight show on its opening day, an experience I will never forget. People went to be surprised and thrilled, and they weren’t disappointed.

Sixty or 70 years later, we’re still watching those pictures and marveling at them. But is it the thrills and the shocks that we keep going back to? I don’t think so. The set pieces in “North by Northwest” are stunning, but they would be nothing more than a succession of dynamic and elegant compositions and cuts without the painful emotions at the center of the story or the absolute lostness of Cary Grant’s character.

The climax of “Strangers on a Train” is a feat, but it’s the interplay between the two principal characters and Robert Walker’s profoundly unsettling performance that resonate now.

Some say that Hitchcock’s pictures had a sameness to them, and perhaps that’s true — Hitchcock himself wondered about it. But the sameness of today’s franchise pictures is something else again. Many of the elements that define cinema as I know it are there in Marvel pictures. What’s not there is revelation, mystery or genuine emotional danger. Nothing is at risk. The pictures are made to satisfy a specific set of demands, and they are designed as variations on a finite number of themes.

They are sequels in name but they are remakes in spirit, and everything in them is officially sanctioned because it can’t really be any other way. That’s the nature of modern film franchises: market-researched, audience-tested, vetted, modified, revetted and remodified until they’re ready for consumption.

Another way of putting it would be that they are everything that the films of Paul Thomas Anderson or Claire Denis or Spike Lee or Ari Aster or Kathryn Bigelow or Wes Anderson are not. When I watch a movie by any of those filmmakers, I know I’m going to see something absolutely new and be taken to unexpected and maybe even unnameable areas of experience. My sense of what is possible in telling stories with moving images and sounds is going to be expanded.

So, you might ask, what’s my problem? Why not just let superhero films and other franchise films be? The reason is simple. In many places around this country and around the world, franchise films are now your primary choice if you want to see something on the big screen. It’s a perilous time in film exhibition, and there are fewer independent theaters than ever. The equation has flipped and streaming has become the primary delivery system. Still, I don’t know a single filmmaker who doesn’t want to design films for the big screen, to be projected before audiences in theaters.

That includes me, and I’m speaking as someone who just completed a picture for Netflix. It, and it alone, allowed us to make “The Irishman” the way we needed to, and for that I’ll always be thankful. We have a theatrical window, which is great. Would I like the picture to play on more big screens for longer periods of time? Of course I would. But no matter whom you make your movie with, the fact is that the screens in most multiplexes are crowded with franchise pictures.

And if you’re going to tell me that it’s simply a matter of supply and demand and giving the people what they want, I’m going to disagree. It’s a chicken-and-egg issue. If people are given only one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing, of course they’re going to want more of that one kind of thing.

But, you might argue, can’t they just go home and watch anything else they want on Netflix or iTunes or Hulu? Sure — anywhere but on the big screen, where the filmmaker intended her or his picture to be seen.

In the past 20 years, as we all know, the movie business has changed on all fronts. But the most ominous change has happened stealthily and under cover of night: the gradual but steady elimination of risk. Many films today are perfect products manufactured for immediate consumption. Many of them are well made by teams of talented individuals. All the same, they lack something essential to cinema: the unifying vision of an individual artist. Because, of course, the individual artist is the riskiest factor of all.

I’m certainly not implying that movies should be a subsidized art form, or that they ever were. When the Hollywood studio system was still alive and well, the tension between the artists and the people who ran the business was constant and intense, but it was a productive tension that gave us some of the greatest films ever made — in the words of Bob Dylan, the best of them were “heroic and visionary.”

Today, that tension is gone, and there are some in the business with absolute indifference to the very question of art and an attitude toward the history of cinema that is both dismissive and proprietary — a lethal combination. The situation, sadly, is that we now have two separate fields: There’s worldwide audiovisual entertainment, and there’s cinema. They still overlap from time to time, but that’s becoming increasingly rare. And I fear that the financial dominance of one is being used to marginalize and even belittle the existence of the other.

For anyone who dreams of making movies or who is just starting out, the situation at this moment is brutal and inhospitable to art. And the act of simply writing those words fills me with terrible sadness.

Wyldesyde19 11-05-19 07:27 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Marty echoes the same sentiment as I. The prevalent theme is sequel after sequel. Style over substance. However, I do enjoy some marvel films.
I also know better then to put them on the same pedistal as, say The Godfather.
Although some have moved me, over the years.
I might have to think a little more on this actually.....

Bill Harford 11-06-19 03:10 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Marvel is like a McDonald's PlayPlace. It's not the park, but the kids love it.

MoreOrLess 11-06-19 03:43 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Marty to me though is talking about issues that refer to blockbusters and relating them solely to franchises which I think muddies the water rather, I mean golden age Hollywood was obviously very much targeting films at specific audiences and really new Hollywood was more of a blip before the rise of the modern blockbuster again.

If you set that aside and just look at franchises relative to single films honestly I'm not sure I agree with him. I would argue that films intended as one off blockbusters(even if some became franchises) tend to be more formulaic sticking to a standard heroes journey. I mean look at Starwars, the original film is very much that yet when it became a franchise the established characters and potential for a sequel I think allowed for a story with deeper dramatic stakes.

You look at the Russo's Marvel films as well and I think the same is true, because their working within a larger franchise they don't need to spend as long in the setup nore to they need to tie up lose ends(until the last anyway) which I think results in films were there is dramatic tension.

I really do not feel that him having to look around a bit for The Irishman is a good advert for cinemas problems. I mean I'v not seen the film but a $160 million crime epic bringing back De Niro, Palcino and Pesci, that to me is actually pretty dam targeted film making, I can see the marketing division at Amazon banking on people who loved the films those guys were in the past and indeed that Marty made in the past coming back for more.

Hitchcockian97 11-06-19 03:54 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Whilst I do love most of the Marvel movies, I can see Scorsese's point. Big, not-so-deep, blockbuster movies should not overshadow deeper cinema. As a lover of films, I watch all kinds of movies, from all eras and countries and genres, and I take them for what they are. Superhero movies and Star Wars are fun movies with great characters and visuals, but of course it doesn't have the depth of, say an Ingmar Bergman movie or Requiem for a Dream, and you shouldn't expect them to. I prefer movies with more of a depth myself, but if you take them for what they are, these children-oriented scifi movies are really great too.

The important thing is for different kinds of movies to be able to coexist, neither should take all the attention from the other one.

Citizen Rules 11-06-19 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by Hitchcockian97 (Post 2045944)
...The important thing is for different kinds of movies to be able to coexist, neither should take all the attention from the other one.
Marvel movies/Disney franchises/Production line block busters...all do take away attention from more serious adult themed cinema. As Scorsese said, theater showings and studio financing are going to be limited when it comes to more serious film making. And with the Disney-Fox Empire controlling up to 40% of the U.S. movie market, more serious films that don't make a lot of money aren't going to be put on the fast track. So yeah Scorsese is right, and no there's not a damn thing he or any of us can do about it.

Hollywood Makes Way for the Disney-Fox Behemoth
The Chilling Implications of a Disney-Fox Merger

Yoda 11-06-19 01:07 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
It's important to note just how narrow Scorsese's objection is: it can't really be said that the blockbusters are crowding out other stuff, because as he noted, he just got a ton of money from Netflix to make The Irishman the way he wanted, and the industry, for all its faults, is producing more niche stuff than ever before. It's never been easier to make something weird and daring that might potentially be seen by lots of people...

...but not in lots of theaters, necessarily. That's the thing. Scorsese's complaint is valid as far as it goes, it just doesn't work except as a complaint about niche or non-franchise films, on the big screen, specifically. Even then it's kind of an over-simplification (there's still plenty of screen space, just maybe not as much as before, and even then only in a relative sense). To whatever degree there's a crowding out effect, it's pretty much exclusively just for marginal stuff, on large theater screens specifically.

Wyldesyde19 11-06-19 01:40 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
I have noticed it’s harder to see certain films on at the theatre then it was 10 years ago.
I can’t find The Irishman anywhere (prefer to see it on the big screen but what ever)
One of the biggest problem sI have noticed is how many films are released on a yearly basis. We’re currently at 744 for this year. Some are re releases, but by and large most are new releases.
That’s a huge increase from the 80’s where they first started to increase in amount made.
For example, 1980 has 115 releases. Give or take a few, the early 80’s seem to miss a few films. (Alligator is notably missing from that year, and Deadly Eyes and Chopping Mall were missing from their respective years but I digress) by 1989 is was up to 236. That number just continues to grow.
With the increase in amount of films, and the increase in ticket prices, people have become more hesitant to go unless it’s a big splashy film such as the Marvel films or Star Wars. And the streaming services, such as Netflix, have noticed. So they provide an alternative.

*all info above regarding amount of films made is based off of box office mojo

Yoda 11-06-19 01:48 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
The Irishman is a special exception. Netflix didn't even want to release it in theaters, but Scorsese really wanted it and there's some controversy about how eligible a film should be for various awards if it doesn't have a reasonable theatrical release, so it's in a handful of theaters for that reason. It would otherwise be pretty easy to find, I expect, Marvel dominance or no.

Wyldesyde19 11-06-19 02:07 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
The irishman was just one example. The overall point remains, the blockbusters will dominate the screens, while the more serious and personal films suffer. That’s what Scorsese seems to be lamenting. I get it, but as I said previously, I still enjoy marvel films. They have even moved me, on occasion. They are cinema to me.
After all, Star Wars was once thought of the same way.

MoreOrLess 11-08-19 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2045983)
It's important to note just how narrow Scorsese's objection is: it can't really be said that the blockbusters are crowding out other stuff, because as he noted, he just got a ton of money from Netflix to make The Irishman the way he wanted, and the industry, for all its faults, is producing more niche stuff than ever before. It's never been easier to make something weird and daring that might potentially be seen by lots of people...

...but not in lots of theaters, necessarily. That's the thing. Scorsese's complaint is valid as far as it goes, it just doesn't work except as a complaint about niche or non-franchise films, on the big screen, specifically. Even then it's kind of an over-simplification (there's still plenty of screen space, just maybe not as much as before, and even then only in a relative sense). To whatever degree there's a crowding out effect, it's pretty much exclusively just for marginal stuff, on large theater screens specifically.
You are definitely looking at more of a two tier environment for cinema today than in the past, there is arguably a more dependable network for distributing and funding arthouse today than there has been since the 60's but for the most part the films don't tend to push into mainstream culture much.

I do actually feel though that big entertainment blockbusters aren't the only or even the main issue here. I would say that a larger problem is that cinema aimed at the adult market in the mainstream has become less and less ambitious, shifting more and more towards Oscar bait.

Something like Taxi Driver getting the kind of attention that film did at the time would be pretty unlikely these days IMHO.

TheUsualSuspect 11-08-19 08:57 AM

I can't believe this is even a discussion. These people are just upset that these movies are dominating the box office and are all of "basic" quality. Scorsese wants something more from these movies and he's upset that movies he wants to make are not getting financed by studios, which is why he went to Netflix for The Irishman.

Just accept that these movies are here, people enjoy them and they will be here a bit longer.

Ami-Scythe 11-08-19 09:32 AM

Originally Posted by Hitchcockian97 (Post 2045944)
Whilst I do love most of the Marvel movies, I can see Scorsese's point. Big, not-so-deep, blockbuster movies should not overshadow deeper cinema. As a lover of films, I watch all kinds of movies, from all eras and countries and genres, and I take them for what they are. Superhero movies and Star Wars are fun movies with great characters and visuals, but of course it doesn't have the depth of, say an Ingmar Bergman movie or Requiem for a Dream, and you shouldn't expect them to. I prefer movies with more of a depth myself, but if you take them for what they are, these children-oriented scifi movies are really great too.

The important thing is for different kinds of movies to be able to coexist, neither should take all the attention from the other one.
I think he said it best

JoaoRodrigues 11-08-19 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by TheUsualSuspect (Post 2046408)
I can't believe this is even a discussion. These people are just upset that these movies are dominating the box office and are all of "basic" quality. Scorsese wants something more from these movies and he's upset that movies he wants to make are not getting financed by studios, which is why he went to Netflix for The Irishman.

Just accept that these movies are here, people enjoy them and they will be here a bit longer.
This basically. It's what I've been saying since the beginning.

banality 11-08-19 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by TheUsualSuspect (Post 2046408)
I can't believe this is even a discussion. These people are just upset that these movies are dominating the box office and are all of "basic" quality. Scorsese wants something more from these movies and he's upset that movies he wants to make are not getting financed by studios, which is why he went to Netflix for The Irishman.

Just accept that these movies are here, people enjoy them and they will be here a bit longer.
You can't believe there's a discussion about cinema on movieforums?

Mr Minio 11-08-19 01:56 PM

Yes, Marvel movies are cinema.

But that's not the point. They're lazy entertainment for the masses with disgusting layers of bathos, dishonesty, and cash grab cookie cutter mentality. They're professionally made superproductions that make amateur cinema look fresh and exciting. You see, it's not like the color grading in Avengers: Endgame wasn't deliberate. It's just that the final product looks so unsavory, I'd rather take the cinematography of some best-worst movies ever made, in which the grading was random, or inexistent.

Needless to say, I haven't seen all Marvel films, but from those I've seen only the first Guardians, and Spider Man: Into the Spider Verse were anything more than a half star calamity.

Yoda 11-08-19 02:06 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
I think a lot of the harshest criticisms of these films is unduly influenced by the fact that they're popular. I think everything they do is seen through the prism of that popularity (like mainstream musicians, really) and that it leads to critiques that are wildly over-the-top given their actual quality, which is usually fine and occasionally even quite good. The fact that the "mentality" that led to them features so prominently in the critique is a pretty clear indicator of this.

That, and there's just a general, almost universal underrating of the artistry and power of communicating on a mass scale. But we've talked about that before.

Iroquois 11-09-19 10:37 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
It does sound like the concept of arguing for the artistry of communicating on a mass scale is also filtered through the prism of popularity (albeit in the opposite direction). Either way, I would think the issue is less with the efficiency of how these movies communicate than with what exactly they communicate (if anything) and how much that matters in the grand scheme of things.

Yoda 11-09-19 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 2046625)
It does sound like the concept of arguing for the artistry of communicating on a mass scale is also filtered through the prism of popularity (albeit in the opposite direction).
Well, how does it sound like that?

To be clear, when I say this stuff is viewed through the prism of popularity, I'm not just saying non-specific people hate it because it's popular, though such people obviously exist. I'm saying particular people do, and I'm saying this is evident because they come at it from particular angles (like talking about the intent/motive, or the money involved) as opposed to others. So it's not some easily flippable thing, where someone can just say "well maybe YOU just like them BECAUSE they're popular!" I'm sure that's a thing, too, but I can't imagine what I've said to suggest this matters much to me. Anecdotally, I dislike a lot of really popular things.

Anyway, I'm in the fortunate position of being surrounded by people who have mostly self-selected, by the nature of this site, not to think much of Marvel blockbusters, so all I'm really trying to argue is that people here don't always see that mass communication is not antithetical to art (Warhol shudders), it's just a different type of it.

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 2046625)
Either way, I would think the issue is less with the efficiency of how these movies communicate than with what exactly they communicate (if anything) and how much that matters in the grand scheme of things.
Maybe that should be the issue, but that doesn't seem to be what matters to the people criticizing them. The broad themes really don't vary much from most art house fare to most blockbuster fare. You're still dealing with sacrifice, loss, betrayal, whatever. The "how" is what the critics are most upset with, I think.

MoreOrLess 11-09-19 03:22 PM

You could argue that the modern system of film distribution plays on peoples biases on these issues, the divide between mass entertainment and "art" has arguably never been more obvious than in cinema today, someone like Tarantino bridging the gap has become quite rare.

Although really I feel that part of the reason Marvel have had the long term success they have rather than the 15 mins/half dozen years of fame most expected is actually that they've bucked this trend a little. They've hired people like the Russo's, Gunn and Waititi to create films that whilst there still mass entertainment blockbusters do also draw on more than just the standard palate such films work from, you have drama that's more intense, self aware comedy that's often quite intelligent, etc. I does to me feel a bit like turning the clock back on blockbuster cinema to the latte 70's and 80's were films were processing New Hollywood for a mass market rather than the more standard formula that had been settled on by the 90's(with the odd interruption from the likes of Peter Jackson).

Yoda 11-09-19 03:29 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Yeah, if nothing else it should be obvious these blockbusters are a lot better than many we've had in the past. Have you guys seen Thor: Ragnarok? Because it doesn't at all feel like something focus-grouped to death, or some safe, corporate product. It's delightfully weird. Marvel's taken a lot more chances than they've really had to.

I think people are upset because they've done so well, and as I alluded to earlier, the big screen crowding out thing is probably the only really valid critique here (even though I find it a little precious at the margins). But as far as blockbusters go a lot of these are a heckuva lot better than the standard fare. I'm not sure that's such a bad trade, especially if it sets the tone for mass entertainment (which is going to exist in some form or another, probably) in the future.

neiba 11-09-19 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2045869)
Marty wrote an editorial in the New York Times clarifying his remarks. I've bolded some of the most significant portions since it's a little long:

When I was in England in early October, I gave an interview to Empire magazine. I was asked a question about Marvel movies. I answered it. I said that I’ve tried to watch a few of them and that they’re not for me, that they seem to me to be closer to theme parks than they are to movies as I’ve known and loved them throughout my life, and that in the end, I don’t think they’re cinema.

Some people seem to have seized on the last part of my answer as insulting, or as evidence of hatred for Marvel on my part. If anyone is intent on characterizing my words in that light, there’s nothing I can do to stand in the way.

Many franchise films are made by people of considerable talent and artistry. You can see it on the screen. The fact that the films themselves don’t interest me is a matter of personal taste and temperament. I know that if I were younger, if I’d come of age at a later time, I might have been excited by these pictures and maybe even wanted to make one myself. But I grew up when I did and I developed a sense of movies — of what they were and what they could be — that was as far from the Marvel universe as we on Earth are from Alpha Centauri.

For me, for the filmmakers I came to love and respect, for my friends who started making movies around the same time that I did, cinema was about revelation — aesthetic, emotional and spiritual revelation. It was about characters — the complexity of people and their contradictory and sometimes paradoxical natures, the way they can hurt one another and love one another and suddenly come face to face with themselves.

It was about confronting the unexpected on the screen and in the life it dramatized and interpreted, and enlarging the sense of what was possible in the art form.

And that was the key for us: it was an art form. There was some debate about that at the time, so we stood up for cinema as an equal to literature or music or dance. And we came to understand that the art could be found in many different places and in just as many forms — in “The Steel Helmet” by Sam Fuller and “Persona” by Ingmar Bergman, in “It’s Always Fair Weather” by Stanley Donen and Gene Kelly and “Scorpio Rising” by Kenneth Anger, in “Vivre Sa Vie” by Jean-Luc Godard and “The Killers” by Don Siegel.

Or in the films of Alfred Hitchcock — I suppose you could say that Hitchcock was his own franchise. Or that he was our franchise. Every new Hitchcock picture was an event. To be in a packed house in one of the old theaters watching “Rear Window” was an extraordinary experience: It was an event created by the chemistry between the audience and the picture itself, and it was electrifying.

And in a way, certain Hitchcock films were also like theme parks. I’m thinking of “Strangers on a Train,” in which the climax takes place on a merry-go-round at a real amusement park, and “Psycho,” which I saw at a midnight show on its opening day, an experience I will never forget. People went to be surprised and thrilled, and they weren’t disappointed.

Sixty or 70 years later, we’re still watching those pictures and marveling at them. But is it the thrills and the shocks that we keep going back to? I don’t think so. The set pieces in “North by Northwest” are stunning, but they would be nothing more than a succession of dynamic and elegant compositions and cuts without the painful emotions at the center of the story or the absolute lostness of Cary Grant’s character.

The climax of “Strangers on a Train” is a feat, but it’s the interplay between the two principal characters and Robert Walker’s profoundly unsettling performance that resonate now.

Some say that Hitchcock’s pictures had a sameness to them, and perhaps that’s true — Hitchcock himself wondered about it. But the sameness of today’s franchise pictures is something else again. Many of the elements that define cinema as I know it are there in Marvel pictures. What’s not there is revelation, mystery or genuine emotional danger. Nothing is at risk. The pictures are made to satisfy a specific set of demands, and they are designed as variations on a finite number of themes.

They are sequels in name but they are remakes in spirit, and everything in them is officially sanctioned because it can’t really be any other way. That’s the nature of modern film franchises: market-researched, audience-tested, vetted, modified, revetted and remodified until they’re ready for consumption.

Another way of putting it would be that they are everything that the films of Paul Thomas Anderson or Claire Denis or Spike Lee or Ari Aster or Kathryn Bigelow or Wes Anderson are not. When I watch a movie by any of those filmmakers, I know I’m going to see something absolutely new and be taken to unexpected and maybe even unnameable areas of experience. My sense of what is possible in telling stories with moving images and sounds is going to be expanded.

So, you might ask, what’s my problem? Why not just let superhero films and other franchise films be? The reason is simple. In many places around this country and around the world, franchise films are now your primary choice if you want to see something on the big screen. It’s a perilous time in film exhibition, and there are fewer independent theaters than ever. The equation has flipped and streaming has become the primary delivery system. Still, I don’t know a single filmmaker who doesn’t want to design films for the big screen, to be projected before audiences in theaters.

That includes me, and I’m speaking as someone who just completed a picture for Netflix. It, and it alone, allowed us to make “The Irishman” the way we needed to, and for that I’ll always be thankful. We have a theatrical window, which is great. Would I like the picture to play on more big screens for longer periods of time? Of course I would. But no matter whom you make your movie with, the fact is that the screens in most multiplexes are crowded with franchise pictures.

And if you’re going to tell me that it’s simply a matter of supply and demand and giving the people what they want, I’m going to disagree. It’s a chicken-and-egg issue. If people are given only one kind of thing and endlessly sold only one kind of thing, of course they’re going to want more of that one kind of thing.

But, you might argue, can’t they just go home and watch anything else they want on Netflix or iTunes or Hulu? Sure — anywhere but on the big screen, where the filmmaker intended her or his picture to be seen.

In the past 20 years, as we all know, the movie business has changed on all fronts. But the most ominous change has happened stealthily and under cover of night: the gradual but steady elimination of risk. Many films today are perfect products manufactured for immediate consumption. Many of them are well made by teams of talented individuals. All the same, they lack something essential to cinema: the unifying vision of an individual artist. Because, of course, the individual artist is the riskiest factor of all.

I’m certainly not implying that movies should be a subsidized art form, or that they ever were. When the Hollywood studio system was still alive and well, the tension between the artists and the people who ran the business was constant and intense, but it was a productive tension that gave us some of the greatest films ever made — in the words of Bob Dylan, the best of them were “heroic and visionary.”

Today, that tension is gone, and there are some in the business with absolute indifference to the very question of art and an attitude toward the history of cinema that is both dismissive and proprietary — a lethal combination. The situation, sadly, is that we now have two separate fields: There’s worldwide audiovisual entertainment, and there’s cinema. They still overlap from time to time, but that’s becoming increasingly rare. And I fear that the financial dominance of one is being used to marginalize and even belittle the existence of the other.

For anyone who dreams of making movies or who is just starting out, the situation at this moment is brutal and inhospitable to art. And the act of simply writing those words fills me with terrible sadness.
I can't see how anyone would disagree with Marty's words here...
We got to a point where Joker is considered to be a deep and philosophical work of art... That says enough about its competition...

Noel Penaflor 11-09-19 09:57 PM

Yes. But I Agree when he said they don't take risks.

Ami-Scythe 11-09-19 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by neiba (Post 2046671)
I can't see how anyone would disagree with Marty's words here...
We got to a point where Joker is considered to be a deep and philosophical work of art... That says enough about its competition...
We're friends now and you can't get out of this

neiba 11-11-19 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ami-Scythe (Post 2046719)
We're friends now and you can't get out of this
:rolleyes:
Nice to meet you! :D

Wyldesyde19 11-11-19 02:47 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
I enjoyed the Joker, and it did have a thought provoking stance on how mental illness is handled at large, but even then I found it slightly pretentious as it neared the end when it derailed into a cacophony of violence

Yoda 12-26-19 02:30 PM

https://twitter.com/chrisvonquinn/st...36288338731008

hell_storm2004 12-27-19 02:57 AM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Films, yes they are, absolutely. But feels like a CGI orgy mostly. Good or bad is mostly dependent on the person or fandom involved. For me personally, i don't care about them at all. Just look at this year, less of them and the quality of movies releasing instantly has gone up. They just suppress good movies coming out because all houses mostly would look at the money they make and go we should do the same, bar A24 and a few other small producers.


The only comic stuff i liked was Deadpool, coz is self-aware at all times, that it is a movie that came out of a comic book. And Nolan's batman, coz you know, Nolan and Bale. The others just take themselves just too seriously and try to deliver something that is a mish-mash of a lot of things, and a whole lot of fluff at the same time.

Siddon 12-27-19 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by hell_storm2004 (Post 2055025)
Films, yes they are, absolutely. But feels like a CGI orgy mostly. Good or bad is mostly dependent on the person or fandom involved. For me personally, i don't care about them at all. Just look at this year, less of them and the quality of movies releasing instantly has gone up. They just suppress good movies coming out because all houses mostly would look at the money they make and go we should do the same, bar A24 and a few other small producers.


The only comic stuff i liked was Deadpool, coz is self-aware at all times, that it is a movie that came out of a comic book. And Nolan's batman, coz you know, Nolan and Bale. The others just take themselves just too seriously and try to deliver something that is a mish-mash of a lot of things, and a whole lot of fluff at the same time.
We did have nine of them...

Alita:Battle Angel
Captain Marvel
Shazam
Avengers Endgame
Hellboy
X-men: Dark Phoenix
Men in Black International
Spiderman: Far From Home
Joker

Like any other genre we have high points and low points. I think the Superhero films are less of an issue than the Kids animated films that come out every week those ,mostly seem to be empty cash grabs.

hell_storm2004 12-27-19 02:52 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Yeah. Most of them early in the year. Joker although is a DC movie, the movie floats completely on another plane. Heck I didn't even know this much came out. My childhood was mostly with Tintin and Asterix stuff. So Marvel/DC barely scratch my heart!

I am not liking the way Disney is just re-hashing old stuff time and again. But there are still good animated movies coming out. I lost my body and Klaus just came out this year. Both were great!

hell_storm2004 12-27-19 02:57 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Although I might add I don't think both the animated movies are from Hollywood.

Laverc 12-30-19 12:27 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Being "cinema" the art of telling stories through acting, captured by cameras, they are.

Guaporense 12-30-19 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2045869)
Marty wrote an editorial in the New York Times clarifying his remarks. I've bolded some of the most significant portions since it's a little long:
So he basically criticizes modern blockbuster movies because they lack originality. That they are "boilerplate" movies. That is true: movies that cost 200-300 million dollars tend to play it very, very safe and become very unoriginal. Some Marvel movies like The Avengers are perhaps the ultimate example of boilerplate movies: they take the basic elements of action/adventure stories and the basic method of executing those stories in movies (thanks to the likes of Kurosawa) and invest a lot of resources to produce a highly refined/processed product for the widest audience possible. They take almost zero risks in making those movies.

However, to be cinema I don't think you don't need to be original. Otherwise, Scorcese's movies over the past 20 years are not cinema either because his later movies tend to feel much like remakes of his earlier ones. When I watched The Irishman, for example, it felt about as original as Captain Marvel or Black Panther.

I would agree with him that there has been a decline in artistic freedom and hence in the release of spectacular Hollywood movies over the past 20 years. Movies like The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, and even Gladiator are miles ahead of recent blockbusters. I guess the reason is that now audiences have access to a much wider range of entertainment like TV shows and videogames so to attract audiences the movie industry has to use well-known franchises: a more original blockbuster movie released in 2019 like Alita flopped for instance, while super generic movies made billions.

Originally Posted by neiba (Post 2046671)
I can't see how anyone would disagree with Marty's words here...
We got to a point where Joker is considered to be a deep and philosophical work of art... That says enough about its competition...
Well, to me the Joker felt kinda like a less nuanced and more aggressive version of Taxi Driver, which is Scorsese's best film. I think people might be looking at older movies with excessive nostalgia.

Saying that movies like Marvel's superhero movies are not cinema and then, implicitly, claiming that gangster movies are cinema is a form of genre-oriented prejudice. I personally view the gangster genre as not one of the most artistically accomplished genres of film: it is a genre of movies based on the attraction of the escapist idea of breaking society's rules by inflicting coercion upon others. Essentially, they are a sociopathic fantasy genre. Superhero movies are actually not very different: they also a genre based on the escapism of coercing people but coercion is justified in that people who are coerced are "the bad guys" and the main characters use colorful costumes while gangsters use brown/black costumes. In a way, superhero movies are morally simplified gangster movies.

Yoda 12-09-20 03:37 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
Sorta related:

https://twitter.com/FilmLinc/status/1123035220054282240

Yoda 02-16-21 05:52 PM

https://twitter.com/DiscussingFilm/s...59469508648967

ScarletLion 02-16-21 06:07 PM

Re: Are Marvel Movies Cinema?
 
He's not wrong really. He'll go down in history as a true cinematic legend. His legacy is will be swooned over.

Insane 02-16-21 07:32 PM

I think he's angry that The Irishman was an incredible box office flop. From what I can gather, it cost 150 million to make, and grossed a bit over half a million at the box office before being put on netflix.



In other words, nobody is answering his calls. Spinal Tap's smell the glove tour was a resounding success in comparison.

ScarletLion 02-16-21 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Insane (Post 2178815)
I think he's angry that The Irishman was an incredible box office flop. From what I can gather, it cost 150 million to make, and grossed a bit over half a million at the box office before being put on netflix.



In other words, nobody is answering his calls. Spinal Tap's smell the glove tour was a resounding success in comparison.
Why would The Irishman have anything other than poor box office numbers? It was a Netflix film with a limited release.

Insane 02-16-21 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by ScarletLion (Post 2178816)
Why would The Irishman have anything other than poor box office numbers? It was a Netflix film with a limited release.

I tried looking online for how much money it made, and it doesn't seem to have been a financial success.



Maybe the real question is why a Scorsese movie starring Deniro, Pacino, and Pesci get treated like it was a Care bears sequel.

Yoda 02-16-21 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by Insane (Post 2178822)
I tried looking online for how much money it made, and it doesn't seem to have been a financial success.
If you're looking at box office, that's probably right, but Netflix purchased it, so I assume it got some big lump sum from that. Not sure if you're including that or not, but the finances for those streaming-funded originals are completely different than historical releases.


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