Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
Oh come on, the entire world is shocked at the crimes of Russian soldiers in Ukraine, but you felt the need to be a contrarian.
Also most (if not all) soldiers in all of the world’s wars commit crimes. This is an unfortunate reality of warfare and what it does to the human psyche. I remember you didn’t react kindly to my posting about Russian soldiers being tortured by Ukrainians. Whoever is in the wrong, that’s still a war crime on my planet?
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
Freedom of speech ends where hurting another person begins. We cannot show tolerance for intolerance.
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
This is a rhetorical distraction often used by Russian trolls to take everybody's eyes from what really matters:
1. Russia attacked a sovereign country. 2. Russia is raping, torturing, and murdering civilians… …If you don't think Russians are brainwashed on average, just try telling one that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany were once friends and had signed the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that described how Poland will be divided between these two countries. Tell them that the Soviet Union attacked Poland from the East on June the 17th 1939 only 16 days after Germany attacked from the West. If you tell them all that and they say "you are right" then you have been lucky. Because my experience is totally different.
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
Do you? We can start exchanging ad hominem retorts if you want. But I don't think it would contribute to this thread as a whole. If anything, it'd only derail it and force Yoda to close it.
There is you/some others spurting out truth claims about Russia because most people won’t contradict you/get involved. I mean, it might be easier to change the subject of the thread to “**** Russia!” and what more can be said?
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
We saw that happen in Poland during the Second World War, and unfortunately, little has changed. I heard many stories from my grandma and dozens of other people's grandmas. Russians would steal toilets and women's underwear, rape and torture women that were still children as well as older women, saw off their breasts, etc. They'd dig up raw potatoes from the fields. They'd steal everything they could and set fire to whatever was left. This is happening again, on a smaller scale, yes, but maybe only because this war is a smaller war, too.
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
When she was still alive, my grandma would tell me a lot of stories about the war. She said that when the Germans entered her village, they have killed a few people there, and they took a few to the Treblinka Extermination Camp, including her father. But she somehow spoke flatteringly about the Germans anyway. She said that she was sitting somewhere hidden in a ditch and a German saw her, walked over, looked, and walked on. And besides, the Germans gave chocolate to children, etc. Yes, she admitted Germans too murdered people and some of them were scary monsters, but the main difference was that Germans did everything in a very routine and orderly way.
Everyone’s personal experience shapes their perception and attitudes, and to use that in all seriousness to claim “Russians are evil”/“worse than Germans” is darkly comical. I have a Ukrainian housekeeper who once insulted me suggesting it’s high time I have kids as “time’s running out” (I was in my early twenties). I guess I should say all Ukrainians are tactless ****s who can’t mind their own business.
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
Imagine how evil must've been the Russians who entered my grandma's village that she, whose father was taken to Treblinka by the Germans and died there, still thought that Russians were worse.
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
If accounts of survivors are not enough for you, you can look at the thing in a wider scope by googling "soviet war crimes" or something. And then googling "Bucha massacre" and reading what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine. The similarities are scary. The thing is, googling it may not be enough. You need to spend more time reading about all that.
https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...t-work/360264/
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2293955)
There are definitely wars where one side has a huge moral advantage over the other and the war in Ukraine is such a conflict. If you compare these two things:
You will see how inane your allegations sound. I don't mind you saying that. It's a very good example of how most Russians and pro-Russian people react when they see what Russian troops are doing in Ukraine. Denial is one of the most basic defense mechanisms. And that refers to every nation. The thing is, most intelligent people accept the truth sooner or later. It's the uneducated who keep being stuck in their ignorance. What you don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that every nation on Earth that has been at war has committed war crimes of some sort. This isn’t anything special. We are paying attention to Ukraine because the victims are white, this isn’t because of anyone’s “trolling”, but because people tend to care more about those who look like them. https://www.newswise.com/articles/ne...ieve-we-should I mean, sure, Ukraine has “a huge moral advantage”, whatever that means, so do the Uyghurs in China and the Copts in Egypt. Did having a moral advantage ever help anyone? Even the Jews with a moral advantage during the Holocaust weren’t let into most countries until very late in the day. What you also don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that online threads or even in-person church meets where people go round in a circle discussing how “evil” Russians are is just about the most counter-productive thing one could possibly come up with during an armed conflict. “Widespread condemnation” has never truly stopped anyone save for corporate entities like McDonald’s from doing anything. “Widespread condemnation” isn’t an action, it’s a non-event, it’s nothing. Speaking of reading on Russian history or whatnot, do you know about the prophesy of Fátima and the consecration of Russia? Have a read about that. Russia has already been consecrated twice, so what, what has that done? Same here with the “widespread condemnation” and Russia-bashing threads. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecration_of_Russia This thread is by now nothing of use except random Russia-bashing. Y’all enjoy yourselves carrying on with that. (I totally understand if I should be banned, whatever). |
Originally Posted by pahaK (Post 2293959)
So would you also dismiss a rape victim's allegations towards the rapist because she's too close to the rapist and her perception is colored by dislike and resentment so typical to rape victims? Just applying your logic here.
If the rape victim said, “I bet he’s never had consensual sex in his life and raped all his exes because he’s EVIL”, then yes, duh, I would strike that from the record. Equally, if we’re trying to examine the allegations to see whether or not it was consensual, then I would say we should try looking at some kind of video evidence, not just the victim’s words. We certainly can’t rely on the emotional response of the side that’s “morally in the right”. I’m sure you’ve seen 12 Angry Men (one of my favourite films).
WARNING: spoilers below
In short, in the film, the jury member who has the deciding vote wants subconsciously to convict a young boy because the juror himself has a poor relationship with his teenage son. And he admits his mistake in terms of his thinking being inappropriate in the court of law context.
Originally Posted by pahaK (Post 2293959)
In my opinion, it's exactly these countries that used to be under Soviet oppression that has first-hand knowledge of how Russians work. Experience is a great teacher. But then again, my opinions don't matter either as Finland is also Russia's neighbor, right?
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Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
it’s just that, a group of people bashing a country
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
it’s very interesting how the focus is shifting to horrible evil Russia from Ukraine.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Also most (if not all) soldiers in all of the world’s wars commit crimes.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
And there you are, my friend, in a rhetorical quagmire. The above is about as good a piece of evidence that “tolerance” is really a myth as any. As with the Will Smith/any recent free speech drama, you don’t know why “another person” might be hurt. For all I know, maybe the mysterious and nefarious “Russian trolls” are hurt by your random anti-Russian quips. That’s where your freedom of speech ends, I guess?
Besides, is asking to not tell outright lies about another nationality and not murdering them based on these lies too much? And Russian trolls are by no means a mysterious group:
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Of course Russians are totally and utterly brainwashed. And no, they are obviously not winning the war.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
There is you/some others spurting out truth claims about Russia because most people won’t contradict you/get involved
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
I mean, it might be easier to change the subject of the thread to “**** Russia!” and what more can be said?
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Yes, okay, and every single nation on Earth engaged in a war has done the same thing
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
My grandmother was Polish. She had to hide in a well during the war for weeks on end, no light, no water. Once she got out and until the day she died, she had a phobia of Germans, even when she lived in London and walked through Marylebone, she would flinch away from German speech. Your reference to your grandmother is a problem less because it’s ad hominem but mainly because it is inherently emotional and impossible to approach analytically.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Everyone’s personal experience shapes their perception and attitudes, and to use that in all seriousness to claim “Russians are evil”/“worse than Germans” is darkly comical
But your point is flawed, and the following example of using the same logic illustrates it very well: 1. Oskar Schindler saved many Jews! 2. Oskar Schindler was a member of the Nazi Party. 3. You have no right to criticize Nazis as a whole. Not every Nazi was evil!
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
l. I have a Ukrainian housekeeper who once insulted me suggesting it’s high time I have kids as “time’s running out” (I was in my early twenties). I guess I should say all Ukrainians are tactless ****s who can’t mind their own business.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
“Evil” is not a word that can be quantified.
Anyway, your rhetorical games change nothing, really. Russians are committing evil war crimes in Ukraine at the moment. And these crimes remind me of crimes they committed in the past, including during the Second World War.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
But anyway, the fact that you actually in all seriousness refer to Russians, or any nationality, as “evil” makes me feel very little hope about this exchange.
Imagine how evil must've been the Russians who entered my grandma's village that she, whose father was taken to Treblinka by the Germans and died there, still thought that Russians were worse.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
You seem to be under the impression that I am denying Russian war crimes - no.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Again, your broader point being what? “Russians are evil?” What are you, you personally, trying to achieve here? What is your objective?
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Seeing as Russians could never under the circumstances “take to the streets”, or whatever other idiotic term there is, and even so, given there is ample sociological research proving that “protest”/“taking to the streets” doesn’t work/accomplishes nothing (below)
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Russia is committing war crimes. I’m trying to grasp, I guess, what people expect “outrage” such as that in this thread to do about it. If anyone explains, in a neutral fashion, I’d be very interested.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
What you don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that every nation on Earth has committed war crimes of some sort.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
We are paying attention to Ukraine because the victims are white, this isn’t because of “trolling”, but because people tend to care more about those who look like them.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
I mean, sure, Ukraine has “a huge moral advantage”, whatever that means, so do the Uyghurs in China and the Copts in Egypt. Did having a moral advantage ever help anyone? Even the Jews with a moral advantage during the Holocaust weren’t let into most countries until very late in the day.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
What you also don’t seem to be willing to grasp is that online threads or even in-person church meets where people go round in a circle discussing how “evil” Russians are is just about the most counter-productive thing one could possibly come up with during an armed conflict.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293962)
Speaking of reading on Russian history or whatnot, do you know about the prophesy of Fátima and the consecration of Russia? Have a read about that. Russia has already been consecrated twice, so what, what has that done? Same here with the “widespread condemnation” and Russia-bashing threads.
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Re: UKRAINE
Closing this again. This is will be the last temporary closing before it's closed for good.
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Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2293964)
But to attempt to answer your question, I don’t think a rape victim’s mother should give evidence in court to determine how long the rapist’ sentence should be, because yes, her response is rooted in feelings, not evidence or legal practice.
Even in your scenario, there's a ton of evidence about Russian behavior in the past and present (Stalin, the great ally of the West, killed more people than Hitler). The culture in there isn't our "enlightened" western culture (which isn't bad in its entirety). Putin (and many other Russians) dream of the new Soviet Union instead of a democratic and free nation. Lots of the mindset hasn't changed that much since the days of the Czars. |
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