UKRAINE
 

On this holy day of Ash Wednesday, I pray for the people of Ukraine. 🙏✝️

Re: UKRAINE
 

They need much more than prayers in Ukraine.

They need weapons, they need solidarity from the free world, they need to be immediately made a NATO member and then protected by NATO forces.

Tough topic that will no doubt, become political before too long.

Horrific all around.

True, but all I can offer is prayers.

Oh I know and that's why I repped you. I have to say I'm very nervous about the Ukraine situation and I usually don't even pay much attention to stuff on the news. I keep thinking of this movie I watched literally a few days before the invasion.

Re: UKRAINE
 

I just wish we could roll back time & Putin hadn’t done anything he has subsequently done.

Isn't that officially Word War III?

On Reddit I read a Ukraine invasion thread and the moderators said: no injecting blame of either U.S. political party or current or past U.S. presidents into the convo and that's what we need to avoid here if this thread is to stay opened.

BTW thanks to Stirch for making this.🙂

As I see it, if the world lets a bully gobble up a sovereign nation, then Georgia will be next. That's how World War II started. Never let a bully, bully anyone or they will just keep doing it.

Wish I didn’t need to.

Re: UKRAINE
 

It's weird because I almost went to Kyiv a few years ago with work at my former job, and I ended up having a panic attack the night before because I feared an attack or some Russian agent kidnapping me or something along those lines.

And now it's happening.

I want off this planet now!!!

Tents for people who have crossed the border from Ukraine into Moldova. A week ago they lived in their own places. Now they’re waiting for relatives to pick them up.



And why is the weather always so crap in these places.

Re: UKRAINE
 

Standard reminder about politics. I fear this topic is impossible to discuss without becoming overtly political, but hopefully I'm wrong.

Of course, general well wishes for those affected by the conflict and hopes for a fast and peaceful resolution are both fine, and I'll echo them. Here's hoping the coolest heads prevail.

Re: UKRAINE
 

I guess it would be "political" to state my old contempt and disgust for whoever ever praised and admired Putin for the kind of values he stands for (even if I don't point out their degree of overlap with the admirers of certain western leaders).

But damn were the internet flooded with Putin fanboys, a few years ago. And damn did they agree on a lot of seemingly unrelated things.

Re: UKRAINE
 

Don't know how long this thread will last, but condolences for all those affected by this. It's truly awful.

Let's hope Ukraine last longer than this thread.

Amen to that

It's a purely political topic and can't really be discussed without analyzing politics.

In the meantime, I'll just offer my support for the Ukrainian people. Nothing like this has been seen in Europe since WWII.

This may sound like a crazy idea, but I think the U.N. needs an air force comprised of a coalition of allied forces for such clear cut cases as this one, but with no one country leading the way - with planes that bear only the U.N. insignia, and with pilots who's national origins are kept secret.

They could obliterate Putin's convoy from above and establish a no fly zone.

As to Putin's threats - a U.N. force could say this is the united world stopping your unprovoked & genocidal attack of innocent civilians in a sovereign nation (that's 141 countries that voted to condemn your actions). If you choose to retaliate, then you're going to have to attack virtually the entire world - and if you attack even one more nation, then the arsenals of the entire world will be launched against you.

Yes, this is what I wished for this thread.

I was just thinking about my calico cat Looby Loo. If I had to transport her to another country during a war. She wouldn’t make it because she’s such a nervous high-strung cat. Amazed at these people fleeing a war & seemingly quite calmly taking their pets with them. I would be a complete wreck. And I didn’t even mention our cats outside that we take care of. We couldn’t transport them as the majority are not socialized.

This is very nice.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...n-Ukraine.html

I just donated $100 to Children in Ukraine through UNICEF USA.

Re: UKRAINE
 

I just saw something I found a little disconcerting (and let me know if you think I'm off base here)...
It was a new TV commercial for CNN using the war in Ukraine to tout the network.

This wasn't on CNN either, but on a completely different network. And, it seemed to imply that only CNN was fully covering the war or providing the most in-depth coverage (yet every cable news network has been doing pretty much 24/7 coverage). I've seen no other news network advertise itself using the war on Ukraine as its selling point.

I don't know - it just seemed somewhat exploitive and rubbed me the wrong way.

Re: UKRAINE
 

Let's just say that I'm not too fond of our big neighbor, but Putin is just trying to exploit the west's weakness (and Europe's dependency on its oil and gas). I just hope this brings some sanity back to Europe.

Still not as bad as this, though:

https://youtu.be/zwGuXQcv7S4

Re: UKRAINE
 

This isn't the first time that Russia caused grieves with Ukraine. Because of this, I did watch "Mr. Jones " last weekend. Let's not forget Stalin's Holodomor.

I need to rewatch "Bitter Harvest " and "Ikitie ", which does touch on the genocide against the Ukrainian people.

i don't really want to get into this heavily as I haven't been following the news at all, but just a couple of points about this post. Firstly, I suspect that's exactly what Putin wants. That convoy has been sat there without moving or any air support/cover for 2 days. Essentially it looks to me very like somone hanging their chin out hoping someone takes a swing so they can get into a fight.

Secondly, Russia is a permanent member of the UN Security Council, so there won't be any official UN action as they have veto power.

okay this might interest people here.

i regularly check this guy's youtube channel, out of interest for all things submariney and sonarish. his political analysis can be pretty crap (and fortunately he keeps them at a minimum), but when it gets to technical/tactical/strategic military stuff, he's usually well informed, and closer to his actual field of expertise. and he tends to be honest about what he knows, what he speculates about, and what is just a personal opinion. and apart from some weird trollish and (openly) clickbaity geopolitical posturings, i do believe he's sincere and well meaning in the rigor of his information gathering.

okay, that's a long intro. just the context for :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0B47alAkY

Re: UKRAINE
 

This is a week old, but it was the most thoughtful, nuanced, and overall informative video.
Glenn Greenwald


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnHo6JXxcQM

Those of you who saw my shouts already know that I was observing this invasion from the very beginning. My military analysis, guesswork, and worries concerning the war have mostly proved accurate. There are many possible outcomes of the war, but all of them include at least one country utterly ruined. Russia's actions are by no means surprising to anybody who understands a thing or two about history. After all, little has changed in the East.

But Ukraine has changed. It is no longer the Ukraine of two decades ago. And that fact alone is enough. Ukrainian souls are hardened and ready to defend their homeland to death. They have no other choice. And now, when civilians in Ukrainian cities cannot even defend themselves from rockets, shells, and bombs, the mask has fallen, and the Iron Curtain has risen to once again divide West and East. This is the eve of a new world. A more dangerous world. An uncertain world. A world with little chance to return to the status quo ante.

I have a friend in Kyiv. I can't possibly know... No. None of us can know what she's feeling right now. She lives in a relatively insignificant part of the city. She and her family were terrified of every explosion at first. But now they see every dropped bomb, every shell, and every rocket as a man-made thunderstruck. They quickly learned to guess how long it takes for an explosion to reach their eardrums. They learned to go down to the shelter obediently when they hear the alarm siren. One could think that they got used to war. But that's not it. They are tense. They are afraid. They cannot focus on anything but the war. The people of Ukraine have two wars at the moment. The first one is with Russia. The second war is waging within themselves. They are fighting their fear and doubt.

We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. Poland has taken over 500,000 people from Ukraine so far. It is both disappointing and uplifting that we can only really unite when misery strikes. During times of hate and bloodshed, the people in Poland forgot about their little disputes, meaningless feuds, and political disagreements. All our earlier worries look so silly now. But there's only so much we can do. And we are not sure if that's enough.

After 80 years, barricades are being built again. But it's not them who barricaded themselves with contempt. It's not them who's souls are poisoned with hate. It's not them who treat their brothers and sisters like cattle. It's not them who spite mankind. But all words of reason, all words of love for humanity, all words of pacifism, unity, and love sound almost cynical now. Tens of millions crying out for the goodness in men mean nothing when one individual projects all his hate onto the world.

Yes, Ukraine needs more than just prayers, but prayers are good. Just don't let these prayers be silent. Make them loud. Make both people who fight for their lives and those who hide away, counting minutes between each strike hear your support and words of love. This is not going to stop the war. But it will show them they are not alone. And it will show others they have gone astray. There is little most of us can do, so let's do the most we can.

How can Russia be allowed by the UN to remain on the Security Council when Russia is engaging in the very thing the Council is designed to prevent or stop?

It's like if there were a group of security guards protecting a bank, but suddenly one of the guards pulls out a gun, shoots the tellers in the head, then takes the money and walks out. Would the other guards just stand there and allow it when their job is to protect the bank, the employees and the money? Would the murdering guard just be allowed to keep his job and show up the next day to resume "guarding" the bank he just shot up and robbed?

Re: UKRAINE
 

Great post @Mr Minio

Sorry, I'm Swiss.

The answer is : Depends on how big his own bank account is, obviously.

You don't have to worry about that: anything written about in a book will probably last longer than this forum. To me, showing a preference for Movie Forums or Ukraine is a political post, so i'm just going to leave my morbid curiosity behind for now and move on. There will always be Cringe worthy topics, and to me that is very exciting!

Huh?

Beat me to it! (Double HUH???)

It's not just about Putin. If Sleepy Joe hadn't bungled the withdrawal from Afghanistan, there's a fair chance this war might not have happened. He made himself look weak and incompetent. And while Sleepy Joe is trying to figure out what new sanctions to place on Russia, Putin is probably going to join with China and maybe decide to point their nuclear weapons at the United States. They're just crazy enough to do that and there's nothing Sleepy Joe is going to do to stop it.

Oh oh, somebody did not read the thread rules:eek:

Re: UKRAINE
 

Let's NOT trash this thread with political soapboxing. Remember what the site owner / administrator said:

‘Bigger than Chernobyl’: Ukraine’s Largest Nuclear Power Plant Is on Fire After ‘Relentless’ Shelling by Russians

I actually feel real fear right now as I think about those in Ukraine and in the world. To me it's clear Putin will stop at nothing to take Ukraine. IMO it's time for Nato forces to step in.

Now, was that a rule, a guideline, a law, or a mandate?
After the last 2 years I'm not sure I know the difference between them! ;)

This is why I suggest the U.N. form an emergency military (especially an air force) - with all vehicles bearing the U.N. insignia - an extension of their blue-helmeted "Peacekeepers".

NATO stepping up is dangerous - probably what Putin wants and is trying to provoke with his barbarism - because NATO is Putin's arch enemy - it was formed to defend against communist expansion. NATO is already one of Putin's irrational "excuses" for attacking Ukraine. Putin would probably love to launch nuclear bombs against NATO members.

But the U.N. is different - Russia is part of the organization. Lots of non-NATO countries belong to the U.N. Russia's allies belong to the U.N. So if the U.N. says we're stepping in (based on their majority vote) to stop the genocide, remove your weapons and establish a no-fly zone - then Russia would have to resign from the U.N., and / or force its allies to resign, or be willing to retaliate against non-NATO countries, and be put in a position of "Russia vs. the world" (not just NATO - the group they already love to hate).

To be fair, the basis of Putin's vision is already pretty much Russia vs. the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founda...of_Geopolitics

that's pretty much the best thing i've read so far...and i know you're not actually saying this, but sooner or later every politician will be refferred to as hitler.

Figures... I just started receiving Social Security last summer, after paying into it since '74. Damn ruskies will push the button just to spite me.

There’s a firm misunderstanding by many in the west about how Russia works. And it’s why we continue to repeat the same mistakes over and over. Squeezing Russian oligarchs is an ineffective means of enacting change within the country because those oligarchs exist at the behest of Putin.

Cult of personality is an integral part of how Russian leaders maintain control, and Putin is no different in this regard. Are there dissidents? Yes, of course, but there’s no effective means for them to voice their dissent within the country because the state apparatus works to serve the agenda of Putin and reinforce the cult.

There’s little hope in economic sanctions bringing an end to this conflict. If anything, it may very well help Putin to reinforce his narrative of western interference within Europe and the world at large. And the state’s apparatus will gladly disseminate that narrative.

The Bolsheviks in the October Revolution of 1917 used Ukraine to build the basis for the USSR, so it is indeed integral to the country’s history. To argue otherwise is to argue with history.

Ukraine’s continuing independence is going to be solely determined by their populace, which has shown stern opposition to Russian influence. And they need weaponry and organized logistics to maintain morale. If we don’t give them that then there’s little hope they will stave off their aggressors.

I am trying to stay out of this discussion, but the above is very comprehensive and largely factual - this from someone with the inside scoop from Russia. Most very well-connected relatives in Russia and “reg’lar folks” alike have shrugged the sanctions off, if anything, that boosts morale. It’ll have to be something else. My incredibly right-wing parents expect him to get murdered, for real, not tomorrow but eventually. Father who works in defence gives it 5 years.

I wouldn’t be surprised if that ends up being the case, and the power vacuum will be filled by any number of Putin’s lackeys. Or we could see civil war. It’s hard to tell, but civil war in Russia scares me far more than the current state of events.

I’d also like to clarify my earlier comments about the October Revolution: Ukraine was one of the few independent governments that rose up after the February Revolution and disposing of the Tsar. They managed to resist the influence of Bolshevik revolutionaries for a few years (striking down a handful of coups and government riots in the process) but the government’s values of those years gave way to continued resistance from the Bolsheviks. That’s precisely why Ukraine’s continuing independence now is so important to stability in Europe. They have wanted autonomy and independence since the deposing of the Tsar and it’s only been since the collapse of the USSR that they’ve been able to realize that dream. We can’t allow a repeat of history by letting them fall to Russian influence again.

How come? What do you think that’d entail?

Civil war within one country can very easily spill out into neighboring countries, and it’ll destabilize the region. And, given their nuclear arsenal, civil war in Russia could result in some catastrophic results.

I haven’t kept up with who the major players are under Putin, but I wouldn’t be surprised to find if some of them are more radical. If one of them takes power and it results in a military coup we could see that conflict spill out into the surrounding regions, including China. When a populace without autonomy witnesses their neighbors rise to assert their own will it has a domino effect, much like what we saw with the Arab Spring.

EDIT: Here is a great analysis of the dangers of civil war. While it mainly focuses on ethnic conflicts, such as the ones we’ve seen in Africa, the logic still holds for civil wars that are not ethnic based.

https://voxeu.org/article/spread-civil-war

There's a lot of blame to go around, but there should also be the term "sleepy donald" because I think hanging out on Twitter for an entire presidency constitutes being sleepy, but possibly in a smarter and less manipulative way ;)

https://www.wionews.com/world/russia...lan-458907/amp

It looks like my insanity theory is really panning out.

Re: UKRAINE
 

Staging a public execution of Putin? Good thinking!

Wait a second...

It was a strong suggestion and a plea to respect the rules of this board and leave political proselytizing out of it...so the rest of us can keep this thread open and use it.

I like that idea and in a perfect world that would be the way the U.N. worked. But the U.N. never had that much power and in the last few decades the United Nations power has been reduced by waning support from the U.S. I think it all boils down to no super power wants a world wide organization like the U.N. to have more power than they do.

I agree NATO stepping in is dangerous, but so is letting Russian take Ukraine...Do we think if the world lets them have Ukraine that they then won't go for the other former Soviet regions that are now free sovereign nations? It's a classic example of being caught between the Scylla and Charybdis..the proverbial rock and a hard place. It would be very tough to make the correct call.

There's no need for Putin to be murdered....the U.S. can legitimately declare him a war criminal and a terrorist and call for his elimination. Though he's probably hiding deep in his bunker under his palatial mansion. But he can't be that popular in Russia right now...nor can the Ukraine invasion be popular because he's declared martial law in Russia.

I believe strong sanctions and confiscating properties and money of the Russian super rich will result in some Russian mafia taking Putin out. At least I hope so.

I don't think he's crazy, he's using fear and intimidation to help his invasion, much like the pirate Black Beard portrayed a fearless and insane look when he captured ships. It's psychological warfare....First he said he was using nuclear weapons on Ukraine, then he mentioned Russia's father of all bombs, now that news story. To me that says he's not nearly as cocky and strong as people think. He's playing poker and trying to bluff the west into folding.

imagine having mental health problems and then being told that all the head shrinkers are all booked up, and i know perfectly well that none of the drugs i've tried have worked...i feel sorry for the whole fuc*ing world right now, and i've off and on felt that way during the COVID pandemic and people just want me to feel even MORE sorry for them if i talk to them long enough...

Yeah, true. Hopefully, he's just bluffing there. Only time will tell, I guess.

Somebody posted on this thread about when the Soviets during WWII invaded east Poland they rounded up and executed 20,000 military officers and government officials. Putin might not be kidding.

That was in Katyń. Soviets did it and then upon the discovery of the corpses claimed it was Nazis...

Now Russia is using similar tactics in Ukraine. Russian TV broadcasts brainwashing propaganda that claims Ukrainians are bombing their own cities (!!!) to put the blame on Russia. Clearly, all Ukrainians are Nazis, according to Russian TV, so it's OK to invade Ukraine to denazify it... Russian TV claims Ukrainians are torturing and murdering their own civilians... and so on... An old Russian tactic: Whatever you did, simply say the others did it, no matter how inane or preposterous it sounds.

So as anticipated, this is slowly (swiftly?) descending into a “let’s agree Russia is a Satan state/Russians are ****s” rhetoric. On the one hand, I’m never for shutting anything down, I’m really not, so this should by all means carry on, but still, as I’d ask any of my interns, what are you trying to accomplish with the above post? What is your intention? What purpose does any of that serve? “Spreading the truth”? No one in this space appears remotely brainwashed, so…

*shrug*

Since Minio lives close to the situation, it's perfectly fair for him to offer commentary.

Re: UKRAINE
 

It's important to learn about the past so that you are never tricked in the future. I think you underestimate the strength of even the most preposterous propaganda. Many Russians do believe those lies. And not just Russians... One of my acquaintances tried to present me with excuses for Russia's actions. Let's just say he's not my acquaintance anymore.

And users here may mostly be siding with Ukraine, but seeing how many people on the Internet take up even the most stupid whataboutism arguments of "bUt UsA InVaDeD CoUnTrIeS ToO", I'm pretty sure there are some symmetrists if not downright Russian allies here (even if unregistered users who stumbled on this thread).

inb4: Defending Russia's invasion is pretty much like defending Germany's attack on Poland back in 1939. There are many ambiguous conflicts. This is not one of them.

How would that happen?

Maybe, but whoever would think that Assad in Syria is still alive & kicking? How that guy hasn’t been taken out by now is beyond my comprehension for what he’s done.

Hasn’t worked for Assad in Syria & that guy has destroyed his own country.

As I read the news, is it fair to say that the Russian people are appalled by what is going on? Or wishful thinking on my part or somewhere in between?

I am not technically Russian in any meaningful sense, so I can’t say, but all of the friends/acquaintances my mother has heard from are offering a version of “You go, Vlad, **** NATO, that’s the real aggressor.” And no, they are not some deluded elite. I think many, if not the majority, are “appalled” by the violence and whatnot, but still think his broad course of action is correct, if unpleasant. That’s the sentiment I’ve heard from a great many people from all walks of life (I tried to politely argue in terms of the absurdity of NATO being a threat etc, but quickly got a migraine), but, of course, as someone who works in the media, that’s not something anyone’ll put in any respectable “western” papers.

Anyone who has even a half understanding of Russia's history would know that a good portion of the population is happy under Putin, as messed up as that might be. The older generation lived through record levels of poverty and inflation, and witnessed unchecked corruption at all levels of government. The idea that most of the nation is against this invasion is a distortion of the facts. Government control of the media, and a highly curated image of Putin that has been established over the past two decades, is letting a majority of Russians "go along" with the mess in Ukraine. And now, with ISPs being shut off, the level of isolation is only going to reinforce the echo chamber that is Russian state media. There's a reason you are only seeing the young and ex-pats denounce the invasion in Western media; they haven't been isolated in an echo chamber. The purges of yesteryears, the collectivization of the farming industry, and the political reforms instituted by the Duma are not apart of the curated image of modern Russia.

You repeat a lie enough times, in enough ways, and people will begin to believe it. No matter how farfetched the lie might actually be.

I don’t think anyone was actually saying this. But, good post from you.

That was a comment in regards to the overwhelming news I have read/seen. It’s a general comment. Not directed at anyone in here, but it is a narrative being pushed by western media.

Exactly. This is what people overwhelmingly want to think, and it’s good to set that straight.

But Assad isn't threatening a nuclear strike and has little chance of waging world war, thus the west isn't concerned with him. In fact the situation in Syria can be termed an internal affair. A bad situation yes, but not like Ukraine. Russia's invasion of Ukraine is akin to the U.S. invading Canada and annexing the English speaking regions of that country. There's no justification for one country to gobble up it's neighbors. Never let a bully get away with it.

Not explaining myself well today. I’m just amazed nobody has taken a pot shot at Assad. Is the guy so well-guarded & invulnerable? He’s wreaked havoc on Syria. Is it just me who’s amazed he’s still alive?

It’s too depressing to look at how many good people have been assassinated: JFK, RFK, MLK to name just 3.

I don’t wish death on anyone, but surely the world would be better off without Putin?

I don’t disagree. Putin’s gang and the Wagner Group, among others, have been hard at work protecting Assad, hence he’s alive. Plain and simple. No, this is not a conspiracy theory.

What is the Wagner Group? I don’t recall hearing this term before.

Ahem. Don’t want to offer any particular phrasing here as that determines interpretation. But yes, it 100 per cent exists, just in case.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

They're a Russian paramilitary organization - a bunch of neo-Nazis at Putin's disposal. He uses them to do the dirty work. Now they've been tasked with killing Volodymyr Zelenskyy (the president of Ukraine) who happens to be a Jew. Yes, Putin asked neo-Nazis to kill a Jew WHILE accusing Ukrainians of being neo-Nazis.

Agreed, that is by far the most mental part that I’ve enjoyed explaining to people. They are literally named after the favourite Nazi composer Wagner.

Re: UKRAINE
 

Yeah, sometimes I feel like all of this is just some surrealist comedy directed by Luis Bunuel.

Putin threatens the world with atomic weapons and then says it's NATO that escalates the conflict in this direction.

Putin starts a full-on invasion on a sovereign country but calls it a military operation and not war.

Putin claims he doesn't want so many NATO countries to have a common border with Russia and yet tries to conquer Ukraine, in which case he'd gain more borders with NATO countries. (Assuming he wants to go the annexation way and not the puppet government way, but it's still funny)

Hey, maybe we should copy Putin's approach:

Sorry, but these are not sanctions. They're a special economic operation supposed to denazify and demilitarize Russia. ;)

Thing is, I think that’s relatively factual too… all depends on the POV.

Yippee ki yay, mother Russia

Welcome to my world:p I never seem to explain things right...You're fine btw.

It makes one think our CIA isn't really as effective as conspiracist seem to think they are.

it all just boils down to the marching footsteps outside your door, and the world never recovered from the 20th century. I personally don't think ideology can justify anything, but there are the possible trillions who disagree with me. It makes sense that so many internet users just want to explain away the things that others do.

Yes, i live a country that has been messing with people's heads globally for a long time. A lot of people are blind to the aweful things that Russia and China do, i say no thanks to any of the various fa*cist/co*munist regimes and any violence that goes beyond some sort of animalistic vengeance. I don't like Putin, Russia, the United States, or China but there are undoutably some great people who live in all these places and i don't want to kill them. I would probably feel the same about Ukraine given some study and effort...Putin certainly isn't making my life any better with his wierd choices.


(i still don't even know what i meant by that bolded part...it's too vague to really be useful to anyone, it sounds powerful which is why i liked it)


I hear the storm coming...it's pretty relaxing. Don't fu*k with cats. All conflicts are ambiguous until you have a stake in the matter: this is war. I will do anything to survive and there's nothing wrong with that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCKx1MuMRk4

Agreed.

i like the song better than the egoist manifesto but thanks

The first things that come to mind are Germany (and Europe in general) getting rid of their dependency on Russian energy. I think Germany already has reversed its anti-nuclear power stance, so that's a great start. The main things Russia can bully Europe with are oil and gas, so the less we need them the better.

The other thing (which has been a personal pet peeve for me for years) is that maybe the European leaders finally see that they need to increase their military spending (again, at least Germany has already announced that). Far too many leading politicians in Europe are these liberal leftists who are either naive (thinking that Russia will behave if we don't provoke them and just kiss their behind) or former communists that don't even see USSRv2 as such a bad thing (like former Finnish President Tarja Halonen who, as a youngster, preached how it would be a blessing if Finland would join USSR, and later did her best to ruin our defensive capabilities by pushing us into the treaty banning anti-personnel mines).

Putin and Russians are doing what they do because that's what Russia has always been (the 100+ years Finland has been independent we've only ever had one external threat). There's nothing surprising happening there today. But it's the west that has allowed (and allows) it to happen. The only way to stop this is to make Russia stop.

It's really interesting learning about European dependency on Russian industry, I guess there's a line of thinking that's kinda similar to people in the US not wanting Saudi oil...apples and oranges I know, but that's something I've never even thought about before.


No opinion from me as in I have zero control over all this.

Re: wide media coverage

It's true. This will be the best-covered war in history. The sheer amount of amateur footage being uploaded to Twitter, Facebook, and Telegram each day is astounding. This is not a remote country at the peripheries of the world. This is a giant country in Europe with nine 500 thousand plus cities. Almost every citizen has a smartphone with active internet connectivity. As a result, we get almost real-time coverage of everything that's happening in the country.

Re: criticizing media for not covering other wars in the past as well as the war in Ukraine

Even if it's a valid point to some extent, constantly repeating it steers everybody's eyes and minds away from what's going on in Ukraine, which plays right into what Putin wants. Bringing up other issues while discussing one particular issue is a decades-long Russian strategy, so anybody who does that unconsciously helps Russia.

Re: Criticizing the one-sidedness of media

It's clear who is the aggressor in this war. Criticizing the one-sidedness of media makes it harder to know whether the person who does that does it in good faith or is merely a shill. Once again, widely criticizing one side helps the other side. Yes, the media is one-sided in this conflict, but there are at least two reasons for that:

• More info about casualties of one side than casualties of the other side helps boost and lower morale of the first and second sides, respectively. Official kill counts are either exaggerated or underestimated to either boost morale or try and hide the true incompetence of the army
• Spreading propaganda helps the information war both countries are waging at the moment. Proliferating propaganda of the side you support helps this side, even if only by boosting the morale of its army.

The propaganda of exaggeration is not nearly as heinous as the propaganda of clandestine silencing.

Uh, no, you don’t have to, and shouldn’t, spread propaganda to help the right side. We’re already living in a post-truth world as it is, and I don’t agree that actively spreading more disinformation helps, even if it’s for the side you support. How bout we just stick to disseminating truth and facts and pointing out the inconsistencies of falsehoods? Because the facts are already on the side of right.

Ukraine has a long storied history of wanting, and fighting, for independence from Russian influence. We don’t need to murky the waters and give Russia yet another reason to bolster their populace by pointing out our lies.*

There’s a reason we documented and photographed the atrocities of WWII: Truth is a disinfectant, and anyone that argues with it becomes and marks themselves as a pariah.

EDIT: There are three ways to best fight the “firehose of falsehood” by Russia

1) warnings at the time of initial exposure to misinformation
(2) repetition of the retraction or refutation
(3) corrections that provide an alternative story to help fill the resulting gap in understanding when false “facts” are removed.

Sourced from RAND

https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html

No point in this topic becoming political as everybody can do things better. The blame should be directed at who is committing any atrocities. All we can do is care and treat others well, and hopefully that leads to a better tomorrow.

The inner workings of information warfare are much more nuanced than that. If you support any side in an armed conflict, you do not speak out loud about their troop movements, equipment, and losses. This is intelligence data too. The attackers usually suffer heavier losses but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out Ukrainians have heavy casualties too. But the media publishes as little info as possible about that in order to not undermine Ukrainian morale.

They do publish civilian casualties, yes, but only to piss off the Ukrainian army against the invader even more. Yes, Russian losses are greater than Ukrainian losses, but that's also because Ukraine has brilliant defensive weapons. One man with an MBT LAW can kill a dozen or more people, whether in a transporter or a tank. Stingers can kill a large group of soldiers in a landing helicopter with one rocket. This is a great advertisement for Western weaponry.

Russia doesn't need to point out our real white lies and exaggerations, anyway. They will fake proofs if needed or come up with idiotic propaganda that twists the entire thing 180 degrees. If saying Ukrainians killed 10K Russian soldiers so far even though they only killed 6K so far will boost the morale of Ukrainians, then let's do this. Russia does much worse things to excuse the terrorist and war criminal acts of their military.

True. But while most of the Western world can see through Putin's lies right away, Putin does not intend to convince us. His propaganda is meant for Russians themselves. It's supposed to increase their hate for Ukrainians and help them find excuses for the barbaric invasion and inhumane acts that followed it. How to find an excuse to murder people? You either make them subhuman as Nazis did, or you make them Nazis themselves as Putin does. An average Russian citizen is either pro-Putin or too afraid to be anti-Putin, and years of constant brainwashing are responsible for this state of affairs. Now that Russia is getting more and more secluded with each day, cut off from any alternative source of information, their doggedness will only increase.

Ukrainian myths such as the Ghost of Kyiv or Snake Island are not meant to vilify Russia any more than its barbaric acts would anyway. They are meant to consolidate the people and harden their souls.

Thank God for this one. I mean, the mind truly boggles. To argue that it’s fine and desirable to exaggerate the other side’s casualties and minimise your own is just plain mad. This is how we get to scientific data in other controversial political disputes being doctored to support the narrative. Reveals immediately that no one ever was, or intended to be, aiming for any sort of objectivity. And yes, I mean the “right” side. You can’t accuse Russia of manipulating data and then do the same because, well, they’re doing it, let’s all jump off the bridge then.

And is that the approach implicitly followed in this thread? Let’s all discuss Russian history like anyone has actually studied the thing? Raise your hand if anyone here actually knows anything about Russia that hasn’t been sourced from the internet…

I don’t think these myths vilify Russia at all. However, the entire tone of this thread does. Statements are made, as usual, in an authoritative way, “Russia always does”, “Russia always did”, no nuance, no nothing. Hilarious. Does anyone actually think this kind of generalisation is in no way similar to the “bad” propaganda?

I do not mean to take issue with that post itself, I see where that’s coming from and it’s fair, but that doesn’t mean it is not a gross, heinous generalisation, setting aside the lumping of Russians and Putin together. What is it that Russia “always does”? Or “always been”?

So basically what you’re saying is you want to spread misinformation that’s not even going to be seen by the people that need convincing? I hardly see how that helps. But eh, you do you.

I’m going to stick to pointing out the misinformation on both sides and let history speak for itself.

I’m just saying for someone who is so dead set against whataboutisms you seem to be whataboutisming an awful lot.

Yes, indeed.

I also fail to see how a nation, who’s entire history has been predicated on fighting for independence for the last 100 years, needs their morale boosted. Those guys are more fired up than they’ve ever been. Western propaganda is not what they need. They need weapons; a lot more than we’ve already given them. They need food and water; a lot more than we’ve already given them. They need logistical training; a lot more than we’ve already given them. They do not need more misinformation. They are too busy fighting for their independence to be concerned with propaganda in their favor. They already know they are in the right because their history is written in facts and blood.

Yup. On that note:

Thank you, Elon.

https://www.independent.co.uk/tech/e...-b2029215.html

Re: UKRAINE
 

Sure, it was all Hitler's fault. ;)

I'll abstain from posting in this thread for some time.

Re: UKRAINE
 

It's absolutely true that the only (weak) advantage than any "good side" has in any context is truth. And that devaluing truth, for whatever reason, is always ultimately harmful to the "good side's" only anchor, its only compass, only recognizable trait. I'm always flaggerbasted when people can rely on misinformation, require it, yet continue picturing themselves as the good guys. It should be the alarm bell that makes you question your own side.

But that being said, manipulation and self-delusion is a complex topic, and drifting to exaggerations, half-truth or wishful thinking is easy to do for anyone, at various levels of complacency or self-awareness. And given that, there's a danger coming from the human mind's tendency to equalize quantities. Like, you learn there's 3% chances of A and 97% of B, your brain translates it as "there's a chance for A and a chance for B", which becomes more or less equal chances (in fact, it can even be reversed in some contexts, where your brain favors the underdog). You can see that process in discussions about climate change, covid vaccines, lotteries, migration, pseudo-sciences, etc. "Oh, see, two scientists out of thirty billions say that wearing a seatbelt under the full moon can induce cancer, so, it's still debated in the community, and if scientists disagree between each others then who's to say who's to say", "oh, see, petty crimes are mostly committed by poor ostracized people, and poor ostracized are often male members of a visible minority, therefore there's great chances for that male member of a visible minority to murder you in your sleep", "oh noes, this medicine has a 0,00004% rate of heavy side effects, are you trying to kill me", etc. And we're all victim of this bias depending on our weighted values, on what we consider acceptable or not (typically, I'm okay with taking a train to anywhere and I'm against nuclear plants - don't ask me to back this gut feeling with death statistics, I just forgive less a death by irradiation than a death by collision so it doesn't compute).

In this case here, the danger is that the (contextual) petty lies of the West/Ukraine get overblown in comparison with Russia's mass propaganda. It can be blown out of proportion through bad faith (Russian whataboutism) or through the mere effect of talking about it more (because Russian's is considered too obvious and goes without saying, or because ours is closer therefore easier to debunk, or because ours is our own responsibility and therefore requires our own vigilence all the more).

It's similar to socio-cultural self-criticism. As members of our own socioculture, we have a duty of being self-critical and make ourself progress towards more and more refined social justice, fairer inclusivity, more awareness of the symbolic violences and power differencials in our own blind spots. It's a never-ending quest for civilizational betterment, and it's a matter of perpetual tensions, self-accusation, reflexivity, and historiographical re-evaluations. It's good. But then, it's also used by less democratic societies to point our flaws. Which opens a door to two directions of whataboutism : "stop the self-hatred, those over there are worse anyway so we should feel satisfied with our to notch society" and "don't listen to their accusations, see how they admit that they're riddled with flaws anyway, they have no lesson to teach us". Transpose this to our media's relation to truth, and you see how our healthy self-criticism can be instrumented. It's like a debate between two politicians, where the clever, honest, hesitating one has lost in front of the gung-ho populist who never admits any doubt or any field of ignorance.

Ruthless rigor about truth is our most precious tool, and so is self-criticism. It just has to be kept in perspective. It doesn't mean any indulgence, it's way too precious and fragile for that (honesty is our only way out of human dilemmas and social conflicts). But we only have to be cautious, at a given time, not to let a twig's close up look equivalent to a distant trunk. Because false equivalences can have terrible consequences.

I fail to see how this is relevant. The only group pushing that narrative is Russian state media, and it isn’t even a primary reason for their invasion. It’s a one off in a long ending bombardment of misinformation.

Don’t bite the lure. Don’t entertain the falsehoods. Even jokingly, it serves to discredit the autonomy of Ukraine.

INTERMISSION



The reason of the strongest is always the best
We shall demonstrate it soon :

A lamb was quenching its thirst
In a stream of pure water
A wolf arrived, on an empty stomach
By hunger brought to the premises
« Who makes you so bold as to muddy my beverage
This animal said, full of rage
You will be punished for your temerity
- Sire, the lamb answers, may Your Majesty
Not get angry
But rather consider
That I'm quenching my thirst
More that twenty feel below Them
And that, by consequent, in no way
Can I muddy Their drink.
- You muddy it, repeated the cruel beast
And I know that you've spoken ill of me last year
- How could I if I wasn't born yet
The lamb retorted, I'm still suckling my mother
- If it's not you then it's your brother
- I don't have any - Then it's one of yours
For you hardly spare me, you, your shepherds and your dogs
I've been told so. I have to avenge myself. »
On this, to the deepest of the forest
The wolf takes it and eats it
Without any other form of trial.

- Jean de La Fontaine, 1668

These civilians are all dead. The only survivor is the small dog or cat in the carrier.

These photos just slayed me yesterday.

Re: UKRAINE
 

If anyone is looking at photos or footage, have you seen the beautiful white dog? Slightly larger than a lab, I would say. At first I thought he belonged to someone. Now I’m not so sure as I haven’t seen him on leash. He’s throughly enjoying himself running with the people & even wading through water.

Poor thing. Makes me so sad.

Re: UKRAINE
 

Murdering people but leaving out dogs seems to be a thing with Russians.

There is footage of a father getting shot and the son recording him, taking cover. At the end of the video, the son seems to be shot too. A dog (presumably theirs) appears. Another video shows what happened next. The bodies of the father and the son lie in a ditch. The dog is still alive, sitting next to the bodies.