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-   -   Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=59710)

John McClane 07-23-19 02:35 PM

Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I honestly cannot distinguish the right from the left or the left from the right these days. Which got me thinking: will we be able to recognize the warning signs before authoritarianism takes over?

History shows us that it can arise from the ultra-progressive left just as easily as it can arise from the ultra-conservative right. Extremes bring about extremism.

What do you think? Are developed countries in danger?

NOTE: Not looking to start a flame war or anything. :sick::cool: I just think we can all agree that the divisiveness in the world (namely the UK and USA) is dangerous, yes?

Citizen Rules 07-23-19 03:04 PM

"The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."

I was going to say that was a quote from Thomas Jefferson, but research shows it's an amalgamation by another author of bits and pieces of what Jefferson had wrote in various letters....At any rate, I believe it as gospel.

Yoda 07-23-19 03:16 PM

Horseshoe theory:

In political science and popular discourse,[1] the horseshoe theory asserts that the far-left and the far-right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear political continuum, closely resemble one another, much like the ends of a horseshoe. The theory is attributed to French philosopher and writer Jean-Pierre Faye.[2] Proponents of the theory point to a number of similarities between the far-left and the far-right, including their supposed propensity to gravitate to authoritarianism or totalitarianism. Horseshoe theory has also received substantial criticism.[3][4][4][5]

Citizen Rules 07-23-19 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025229)
I honestly cannot distinguish the right from the left or the left from the right these days. Which got me thinking: will we be able to recognize the warning signs before authoritarianism takes over?

History shows us that it can arise from the ultra-progressive left just as easily as it can arise from the ultra-conservative right. Extremes bring about extremism.

What do you think? Are developed countries in danger?

NOTE: Not looking to start a flame war or anything. :sick::cool: I just think we can all agree that the divisiveness in the world (namely the UK and USA) is dangerous, yes?
Interesting topic for a thread...I agree flame wars are stupid and counterproductive, so have no place in a real conversation.

You first:) elaborate on what you think and I'll try to respond (no flames:eek: I promise, not my style).

John McClane 07-23-19 06:12 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I think the most telling example is the rhetoric used to energize the base of each respective side.

We have one side essentially calling the other unAmerican for not living up to its ideals of freedom for all and the promise of a better life. Then we have the other side calling the other anti-American for not expressing undying love and admiration for America.

Trump's claims that "the Squad" hate America plays to this idea that the other side is bad for America and leading us down the wrong path.

Now I will grant that some of this rhetoric is older than time itself but I would say that the voracity of it is unmatched by recent history. I would even go so far as to say that immediately following the 9/11 attacks we didn't even see the kind of comments we are seeing today.

There seems to be this underlying idea that if you stand against the other then your allegiance is questionable at best and nonexistent at worst.

I think this type of behavior is reminiscent of radical government takeovers in France, Germany, and Russia. If we look at the language that was spoke before the French revolution, the rise of the Nazi party, or the ascent of the Bolsheviks then we will find a mirror image of the current state of politics in the UK and the USA. If you're not with us then you are against the Party, the People, and the State.

Sir Toose 07-23-19 08:56 PM

I think we live in an oligarchy, not a democracy.

The corporations and the uber wealthy use their money to influence/buy conditions that favor them. There's always been rich and poor people - but the degree of difference between them has skyrocketed over the past few decades. Most new wealth (around 85%) goes straight to the top 5% because conditions favor them. Meanwhile, the middle class is shrinking.

I think all of the pageantry around who will get the nomination is more a romance between candidates and those who could finance their campaigns. We the People don't decide anymore - we're presented with a 'choice' that have both been vetted by big money interests. It doesn't matter who wins - a candidate from either 'side' will accomplish the exact same things. The only difference is in ideology presented - has nothing to do with the reality of what the candidate's term will bear. Did Obama actually DO anything that McCain or Romney wouldn't have done? I don't think so because they all cut the same deals.

Anyone who really would not cooperate with the oligarchy will never get a place on the ballot. Bernie, for example, will never get on the ballot and neither will Elizabeth Warren because both have vowed to separate money from politics. Tulsi Gabbard is the best candidate I've seen in 30 years but she won't be on the ballot either.

doubledenim 07-23-19 09:21 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Politics at times, seems to be like following a sports team, for people who don't watch sports.






John McClane 07-23-19 10:01 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Boy and I thought I was cynical. :D @Sir Toose I would mostly agree but I think the 2016 election has shown us just how vulnerable the ballot is to outside influence. Either with dark money or technology.

And I’m Steve Bullock all the way.

Sir Toose 07-23-19 11:05 PM

Originally Posted by doubledenim (Post 2025304)
Politics at times, seems to be like following a sports team, for people who don't watch sports.





All you need to know about politics is the golden rule.
Those with the gold make the rules. If thatís not you then your participation is pretty inconsequential.

Now Iím really gonna get called a cynic:D

Sir Toose 07-23-19 11:08 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025307)
Boy and I thought I was cynical. :D @Sir Toose I would mostly agree but I think the 2016 election has shown us just how vulnerable the ballot is to outside influence. Either with dark money or technology.

And Iím Steve Bullock all the way.
Just read his website... seems like solid dude.

Ever read Chris Hedges aka Truthdig? Provides proof for much of what Iíve said (well, more like evidence but still).

John McClane 07-23-19 11:48 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I love Truthdig.

But I still believe there are avenues and methods of uprooting the status quo. We have created tools that we still havenít even fully grasped the power of and I think the 2016 election showed us that. And now we have even newer technologies on the horizon that will change change the game again. We are entering the post-truth era.

nebbit 07-24-19 12:40 AM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
https://media1.tenor.com/images/ab2d...itemid=8049865

Sir Toose 07-24-19 12:45 AM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025322)
We are entering the post-truth era.
Have you seen those deepfake things? Basically A.I. face mapping that learns from video footage. Here's an example if you haven't seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG_NZpkttXE

From now on, anyone can say anything on video footage. We won't know the truth or where to begin to look for it very soon from now.

ynwtf 07-24-19 01:16 AM

Iderno. Post 9/11 felt pretty intense, if I remember correctly. Freedom fries replaced 'french' fries in government cafeterias and the statement, "You're either with us or against us" drew a few headlines for a divide that seeped into the everyman. Hannity was pretty great at making Colmes look like a weak and sniveling stereotype without much effort. Granted social media didn't really exist the way it does today, but cable news did. As well as talk radio. I think it has gotten worse across the board but that's not to say 2001 was without its partisan hackery, planting the seeds for new, for-profit entities to take root and follow the model.

John McClane 07-24-19 01:20 AM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Yes, that’s exactly what I was talking about @Sir Toose.

7thson 07-24-19 02:48 PM

There is so much hypocrisy in congress right now and it spills over into the general public and into our homes and businesses. Extreme and absolute terms are tossed around leaving no gray area to work within, which most of us know is where most of our lives exist. The horseshoe theory is interesting on the surface but it doesn't go far to explaining or resolving many of the current details our country is facing.

For example watching the hearings today reinforced my belief that many of our convictions are being feed to us. What was once an outrage is now embraces and visa versa, it all depends on who says it and how it is said more than what the topic is about. Both sides are guilty so not throwing stones here, but what is frustrating is how debate, healthy debate is almost impossible to be had. I consider myself a moderate conservative or at least I used to, not I am not sure how to label myself because moderates to some are now extreme and extremists are now Nazis. I get called racist if I support a view that Trump supports. I do not support a view because Trump supports it, but because I do. Just like I disagree with a hell of a lot he supports.

It is easy go on tangents and I do not want to delve off on things , that is not my goal here, I just love healthy constructive debate with open-minded participants who are capable of compromise and not many places offer that outlet . Good post.

Citizen Rules 07-24-19 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025264)
...Now I will grant that some of this rhetoric is older than time itself but I would say that the voracity of it is unmatched by recent history. I would even go so far as to say that immediately following the 9/11 attacks we didn't even see the kind of comments we are seeing today....
Good post McClane...I almost voted for you for President a few years back:p....I know next to nothing about politics, but I do know it 'feels' like after 9/11 the world got way more intense and uglier in just about every way imaginable.

Tugg 07-24-19 03:17 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Things turned for the worse with Brexit vote and Trump election in 2016.

Yoda 07-24-19 03:25 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Hot take: a lot of stuff was already bad, and those two things were a response to it, and merely brought a lot of issues to the surface.

John McClane 07-24-19 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2025497)
Hot take: a lot of stuff was already bad, and those two things were a response to it, and merely brought a lot of issues to the surface.
Yes, this and namely that we are no where close to being a post-racial society.

Originally Posted by 7thson (Post 2025483)
There is so much hypocrisy in congress right now and it spills over into the general public and into our homes and businesses. Extreme and absolute terms are tossed around leaving no gray area to work within, which most of us know is where most of our lives exist. The horseshoe theory is interesting on the surface but it doesn't go far to explaining or resolving many of the current details our country is facing.

For example watching the hearings today reinforced my belief that many of our convictions are being feed to us. What was once an outrage is now embraces and visa versa, it all depends on who says it and how it is said more than what the topic is about. Both sides are guilty so not throwing stones here, but what is frustrating is how debate, healthy debate is almost impossible to be had. I consider myself a moderate conservative or at least I used to, not I am not sure how to label myself because moderates to some are now extreme and extremists are now Nazis. I get called racist if I support a view that Trump supports. I do not support a view because Trump supports it, but because I do. Just like I disagree with a hell of a lot he supports.

It is easy go on tangents and I do not want to delve off on things , that is not my goal here, I just love healthy constructive debate with open-minded participants who are capable of compromise and not many places offer that outlet . Good post.
Just playing devil's advocate here, but you are a white male (at least I think so?) so it's impossible to not be racist. That's an entirely different rabbit hole I'm not ready to fall down but what I am trying to get at is there are ideas/views/policies that, no matter who presents them, are racist. For instance, white people have a vested interest in certain economic policies that create favorably conditions for themselves and, by extension, are racist. Now I don't mean to say that you are racist but rather that it's not entirely left field to consider that you may support views that are racist in and of themselves. And whilst you have no intention of advancing racism your support of certain systems of power give the appearance that you do.


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