Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2211761)
Sound of my Voice is definitely among the better ones. I wouldn’t say Midsommar really counts, I mean, do they even have a philosophy? They have
Don’t think I’ve seen Distance, so thanks, will check out. |
Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2211860)
Midsommar absolutely counts. It centers around a cult that must sacrifice lives for some reason that escapes me. But is definitely fits the bill.
WARNING: spoilers below
the cult believes that time resets after three full moons appear in the sky, and that if someone joins during that time, they’ll never leave, and that everyone in the cult becomes immortal. And it also shows that all of the above is factually true as far as the film is concerned.
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Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2211862)
Okay, fair enough. I guess that’s exactly what I was getting at when I started the thread - that ideally, I’m looking for ones where the logical justification/raison d’être of the cult is a bit better grounded than that. But as Thief says, the whole problem is that cults are usually deployed as a gimmick and rarely have a compelling narrative. The reason I mention The Endless is that it does, albeit imperfectly, show that
WARNING: spoilers below
the cult believes that time resets after three full moons appear in the sky, and that if someone joins during that time, they’ll never leave, and that everyone in the cult becomes immortal. And it also shows that all of the above is factually true as far as the film is concerned.
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I can't think of any real world cults that have anything like a "logical justification" or a "consistent philosophy". I think that's part of what makes them cults. Moonies, Nxivm, Branch Davidians, Children of God, Scientology, the Simulation.... they all collapse into absurdity on the briefest glance. Part of the reason for the zealous defensiveness is due to the subconscious understanding of this clay foundation which they've been effectively programmed to deny. It's a very powerful psychological shackle to convince yourself of something you truly intuit as unbelieveable. Maybe Scientology is the prime example, because by the time the "truth" is revealed to you, you've already been groomed to accept it as revelation.
Most cults are strictly about power in this sense, specifically that of the charismatic leader, fueled by whatever sense of social resentment and alienation that an adherent brings to the fold. The need for purity, order, authenticity are the things that a guru molds like putty. Authoritarian dependence is the common currency. So I'll go with The Master. |
Originally Posted by Jinnistan (Post 2211886)
I can't think of any real world cults that have anything like a "logical justification" or a "consistent philosophy". I think that's part of what makes them cults. Moonies, Nxivm, Branch Davidians, Children of God, Scientology, the Simulation.... they all collapse into absurdity on the briefest glance. Part of the reason for the zealous defensiveness is due to the subconscious understanding of this clay foundation which they've been effectively programmed to deny. It's a very powerful psychological shackle to convince yourself of something you truly intuit as unbelieveable. Maybe Scientology is the prime example, because by the time the "truth" is revealed to you, you've already been groomed to accept it as revelation.
Most cults are strictly about power in this sense, specifically that of the charismatic leader, fueled by whatever sense of social resentment and alienation that an adherent brings to the fold. The need for purity, order, authenticity are the things that a guru molds like putty. Authoritarian dependence is the common currency. So I'll go with The Master. |
Been a while since I've seen it, but I do remember Apostle being somewhat interesting in how it juxtaposed the hero's beliefs and history of religious persecution with that of the cult he investigates.
And while I had issues with the movie, I think The Sacrament gets the importance of a charismatic leader in a cult setting. |
Originally Posted by Rockatansky (Post 2211900)
Been a while since I've seen it, but I do remember Apostle being somewhat interesting in how it juxtaposed the hero's beliefs and history of religious persecution with that of the cult he investigates.
And while I had issues with the movie, I think The Sacrament gets the importance of a charismatic leader in a cult setting. |
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2211894)
I deliberately established a clear distinction between real world cults and cinema cults. As anything in a film, a cult has to ideally have a logic, a purpose and clear ‘rules’ which makes sense in the film’s universe. That’s what I was getting at.
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2211894)
But if we must, I’m more interested in cults like the Essenes, who created the Dead Sea Scrolls. They are one of the earliest communities referred to as a ‘cult’ with absolutely no New Age connotations.
There's some good films about heretical threats to religious authority as well, but it sounds like you're more interested in something more occult than that (Rosemary's Baby, Hereditary). I suppose the original Wicker Man is an optimal example of a "pagan" cult belief structure that doesn't require an actual supernatural presence to give it philosophical consistency. |
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2211798)
Conan the Barbarian? Seriously? Need to revisit that, I guess.
I know nothing. Hey, Agrippa! I have Black lotus. Stygian! The best. |
I’m going to back Jinn on The Master.
But it may not fit inside the frame you have set up yourself, but I think it would Normally. |
Originally Posted by Jinnistan (Post 2211886)
I can't think of any real world cults that have anything like a "logical justification" or a "consistent philosophy". I think that's part of what makes them cults. Moonies, Nxivm, Branch Davidians, Children of God, Scientology, the Simulation.... they all collapse into absurdity on the briefest glance. Part of the reason for the zealous defensiveness is due to the subconscious understanding of this clay foundation which they've been effectively programmed to deny. It's a very powerful psychological shackle to convince yourself of something you truly intuit as unbelieveable. Maybe Scientology is the prime example, because by the time the "truth" is revealed to you, you've already been groomed to accept it as revelation.
Most cults are strictly about power in this sense, specifically that of the charismatic leader, fueled by whatever sense of social resentment and alienation that an adherent brings to the fold. The need for purity, order, authenticity are the things that a guru molds like putty. Authoritarian dependence is the common currency. So I'll go with The Master. The Master is actually a great one, I’ll give that another viewing. Curiously, as someone who loves most of PTA’s work, I always overlook this one. |
Originally Posted by Jinnistan (Post 2211922)
Mm, I think John M. Allegro might disagree with that last part. The problem is that we don't really know with a lot of certainty what the Essene community consisted of in their specific philosophy. I would only consider them a "cult" in the sense of their relative small size and obscurity, but their beliefs don't appear to be substantially different than their less ascetic Hebrew neighbors, the similarly ascetic Nazarenes, or any of the other more Gnostic "cults" of the time. And in this context, a "cult" was generally a pejorative given to a community by the larger conquering cults that had the power to arbitrate what is and isn't heretical to their own orthodox authority. So in that sense, it's still ultimately about power and a charismatic leader (probably more Paul than Jesus).
There's some good films about heretical threats to religious authority as well, but it sounds like you're more interested in something more occult than that (Rosemary's Baby, Hereditary). I suppose the original Wicker Man is an optimal example of a "pagan" cult belief structure that doesn't require an actual supernatural presence to give it philosophical consistency. Very true re: Wicker Man. I always thought that film was secretly designed to diss Christianity and did a pretty good job at that. |
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2212105)
Always a huge pleasure to talk to experts on this.
I think there are certain parallels to draw with more modern day cults, with the purity (asceticism) and the apocalypticism of the day, which are integral symptoms of what we modernly consider "cultish".
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2212105)
Very true re: Wicker Man. I always thought that film was secretly designed to diss Christianity and did a pretty good job at that.
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Originally Posted by Jinnistan (Post 2212108)
Well, I appreciate that. I was wondering where your theological degree landed on the subject, and whether you'd find offence (not intentional).
So the Essenes weren’t my focus at all, I’ve done about 1.5 years of research on them, all in all, it evolved from studying Biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, and though I’ve remained invested and kept reading, there’s only so much you can find out about them in this disorganised way. When I was in Israel just before Covid (heh), I visited the caves and their sacred spots around the Dead Sea. Absolutely fascinating. I was lucky to have done it, given where we are now and what’s going on in the region.
Originally Posted by Jinnistan (Post 2212108)
It's interesting that you feel that way, because I always felt that, rather than diss, the film parallels the pagan rituals with the Christian (crucifixtion) in a way that directly ties the latter to the former.
I can’t explain why I feel that way. But that’s at the heart of early Christian persecution, right? Will you denounce it when you’re burning at the stake? I think there’s something in his eyes that suggests he regrets the whole Crusade. If I had to pinpoint where I think that comes through, it’s the fact he curses the islanders after reciting the psalm, I’m not sure a martyr who’s not doubting would do that. Either way, there is certainly a parallel, but I think the film shows the pagans as utterly self-sufficient, able guys who manage just fine without such self-appointed Crusaders such as Sergeant Howie. |
Re: The cinematic rendition of cults
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Originally Posted by Holden Pike (Post 2212113)
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Re: The cinematic rendition of cults
"The Guyana Tragedy"
Mode-for-TV 1980, William A. Graham https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntdi6q-CUpM |
Originally Posted by Holden Pike (Post 2212115)
"The Guyana Tragedy"
Mode-for-TV 1980, William A. Graham https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ntdi6q-CUpM |
Re: The cinematic rendition of cults
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Re: The cinematic rendition of cults
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