Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
ESB might be most people's favorite (including mine) but ANH is the better crafted film. The 3rd act of ESB was botched as well as some other parts.
Most everything is fine until Han and Leia are turned over to Vader at Cloud City. After that, the story sputters along, gaining little traction. Unfortunately, Lando and Leia's escape from Cloud City isn't as exciting as Luke's duel with Darth Vader, and Vader's revelation to Luke was never set up properly. That's why, I believe, ESB wasn't as well received as ANH at the time of its release. It wasn't until people looked at it in hindsight and with repeated viewings that it became the majority's favorite. And they covered up its flaws with rose-colored glasses. |
Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
Perhaps ESB gained more popularity after the release of ROTJ?
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Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
It's worth noting that A New Hope only has the one climactic action sequence with the Death Star trench run, which focuses mainly on Luke while Leia stays at Yavin IV watching from the sidelines and Han shows up at the last minute. Most other films in the franchise have involved switching back and forth between main characters fighting different battles at the same time, so it's all about finding the right balance. Besides, most sequences in any movie struggle to match the "excitement" of seeing Luke finally go up against Darth Vader. At the very least, Leia's escape still needs to be depicted in case so as to set up the moment where she shows up with the Falcon to save Luke - it may not be capital-E exciting, but it still serves a narrative purpose and its juxtaposition against Luke dueling Vader helps the pacing of the latter sequence. Also, you're going to have elaborate on how exactly Vader's revelation isn't "set up properly", because leaving aside the idea that it's meant to be a reveal that shocks us as much as it shocks Luke (who has no reason whatsoever to suspect that the father he thinks is dead is actually the Emperor's legendary right-hand man), it's not like it doesn't get foreshadowed at all (albeit with cryptic imagery such as the bit in the Dagobah cave where he sees his face in Darth Vader's helmet).
Besides, I was under the impression that Empire wasn't received that well at the time because it was such an incredible downer of a story compared to the bright hero's-journey fun of Hope. It does end with one hero frozen and captured while another one loses his hand and learns the horrible truth about his father. It was a family-friendly fantasy movie where the heroes straight-up lost their battles, which was quite the rarity in 1980 (before the whole concept of trilogies with clearly-defined middle sections like Back to the Future or The Matrix were really codified). A lot of the hindsight appreciation comes from how Empire and its "downer" nature didn't necessarily mean that it was a genuinely bad movie and that, once people got over their initial disappointment, they learned to appreciate the things that the film did really well. |
Originally Posted by Captain Steel (Post 1709157)
Perhaps ESB gained more popularity after the release of ROTJ?
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It's worth noting that A New Hope only has the one climactic action sequence with the Death Star trench run, which focuses mainly on Luke while Leia stays at Yavin IV watching from the sidelines and Han shows up at the last minute. Most other films in the franchise have involved switching back and forth between main characters fighting different battles at the same time, so it's all about finding the right balance.
Besides, most sequences in any movie struggle to match the "excitement" of seeing Luke finally go up against Darth Vader.
At the very least, Leia's escape still needs to be depicted in case so as to set up the moment where she shows up with the Falcon to save Luke - it may not be capital-E exciting, but it still serves a narrative purpose and its juxtaposition against Luke dueling Vader helps the pacing of the latter sequence.
Also, you're going to have elaborate on how exactly Vader's revelation isn't "set up properly"... it's not like it doesn't get foreshadowed at all (albeit with cryptic imagery such as the bit in the Dagobah cave where he sees his face in Darth Vader's helmet).
It needs to be revealed that Vader's motives are personal. Even if the audience suspects this already, it should be re-emphasized and the best place to do it is here. By not addressing the audience's puzzlement over Vader's destructive obsession, their 'fragile involvement' in the film would have been broken - even if just for a moment - causing the middle act to drag a bit.
...it's meant to be a reveal that shocks us as much as it shocks Luke (who has no reason whatsoever to suspect that the father he thinks is dead is actually the Emperor's legendary right-hand man).
Besides, I was under the impression that Empire wasn't received that well at the time because it was such an incredible downer of a story compared to the bright hero's-journey fun of Hope.
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Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
I actually thought that the 3rd act was the strongest, and the second act was the weakest for me. The reason why the second act was the weakest, was because I felt that it had these subplots which meandered the story, such as C-3PO needing to be put back together which didn't add anything. And the Falcon ship was stuck in that meteor esophagus for too long.
I read on wikipedia that it got mixed reviews upon it's original release though, which is surprising. But it is still a very good movie, and my third favorite in the series, after ROTJ being the first, and ANH being the second. |
Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
i agree, it was a weak third act yes, but nonethe less enjoyable, for me the saga hit the prime in empire strikes back i guess everyone agrees
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Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
I felt that it had these subplots which meandered the story, such as C-3PO needing to be put back together which didn't add anything.
And Han and Leah were only in the meteor for 3 scenes. Like was on Degobah a lot longer than that. |
Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
Two things that give ESB the most staying power imo are
A. How well characterized and comfortably acted the main trio is. In the first one they feel slightly more like stock characters and in the third they're often reduced to being players in larger-scaled set pieces B. The music, which has more unique/memorable bits than any of the other movies. Even the less "iconic" tracks elevate something like the still-pretty-good-on-its-own-merits asteroid chase into something more The third act has my favorite two moments in the series "I Know" and the final shot which is just killer. The stakes of the Leia/Threepio/Chewie/Lando getaway do feel kind of low I agree, but the whole backdrop of Cloud City makes up for that to me. Also calling the Vader/Luke thing not set up enough seems unfair since the movie spends a lot of time on that before the "reveal" |
Also calling the Vader/Luke thing not set up enough seems unfair since the movie spends a lot of time on that before the "reveal"
But how do you feel that the movie "spends a lot of time on [the setup] before the reveal"? And if it was properly set up, why did the big surprise so underwhelm audiences in 1980? |
I'm still waiting for Disney to give up the original unaltered original trilogy onto HD format.
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Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
I still can't believe Lucas sold his babies.
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I was 24 when it came out. I'd already read an offhand reveal in Cinefantastique magazine about Darth Vader's identity which I didn't believe before the movie was released. I saw the movie on the first day, and I still didn't believe it - I thought Vader was lying. But I can tell you that the reveal was not underwhelming to the audience at that time. The actual ending seemed anti-climactic though after that bit.
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I'm in the same boat, I feel that personally, A New Hope is the more enjoyable movie, and the best one in the series. It's more enduring, more inspired, and it feels more complete considering it wasn't the first one in an extremely popular series at the time, it wasn't A New Hope yet. It was just Star Wars! I can sort of get behind how the final moments just seem like a bridge to the next film, a continuing problem that still exist today in modern blockbusters. However, I cannot get behind the idea of the third act being weak in general, some of it's just way too strong to go that far, at least to me.
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Originally Posted by ShopkeeperTriumph (Post 1709739)
I can sort of get behind how the final moments just seem like a bridge to the next film, a continuing problem that still exist today in modern blockbusters. However, I cannot get behind the idea of the third act being weak in general, some of it's just way too strong to go that far, at least to me.
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Originally Posted by Tuthmoses (Post 1711622)
Completely understand. There's definitely some strong stuff in there. It's just not paced as well as the rest of the movie. Often times a writer will rush the ending because of a deadline it he's just tired of the material. I think that's what may have happened here.
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Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
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Thats what you think happened and fair enough. My opinion is that it's the strongest and most emotional of the films, including the third act and I have revisited it often, sometimes with and without my rose tinted glasses. I wasn't aware that it wasn't as critically acclaimed as the first upon its release.
You're free to disagree, of course, but if you read the critics' reviews in 1980, very few of them were impressed. Empire Strikes Back is the lowest grossing film of the entire saga, out all 8 films! It was only after repeated viewings that ESB came to be appreciated - once people got over (or forgot) their initial feelings toward it. Why do you think that is?
The third act is impressively brave in its narrative, seemingly evil trumping good, dark tone, and emotional power which all logically and superficially flow.
The reveal is relatively subtle and works well for repeated viewing.
Obviously a big deal having Darth Vader as Luke's father yet I don't feel the whole movie should have been a lead up to this, now hugely famous pop culture moment, as there's more than this going on.
The most logical place would have been Vader's conference with the Emperor. The Emperor should have echoed the audience's thoughts and asked Vader why he was using and risking all of the Empire's resources just to capture Skywalker when the rest of the rebel force were fleeing in the other direction. Then it could be revealed that Vader's motives were personal.
Again I would have to disagree with you, the music, the pace, the dialogue, the story, all very strong and fluent with the film as a whole, I would be close to calling it a masterpiece.
If anything the writers mucked up with ROTJ, again relating the Leia gimmick, the Ewokes although originally I think they were meant to be Wookiees and others things i can't think of. :D
It was the way they were given too much screen time and too prominent a role in bringing down the Empire that audiences couldn't swallow and ultimately lead to many fans' resentment, causing them to begin to hate the Ewoks altogether. |
Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
I liked it up until the furry convention, and Luke's NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO was cringeworthy. Otherwise it was pretty fun, but for me nothing will come close to the first in the franchise.
How was the carbonite scene botched? I dont recall having an issue with it. |
Re: Empire Strikes Back, Weak 3rd Act
I am one of the "It is all one movie/story" guys.
If part 2 sucks then it hurts part 1, if part 4 is great then part, whaaa? There are no better "parts or worse "parts" It is ALL ONE conglomeration of sci-fi fun. I love AND hate all the movies. They all suck and contribute, in different ways, the storyline is moved, like it or not. |
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