Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
To share my experience, I became hooked on Von Trier's films a while back, and he climbs my list of favorite directors with every film of his I watch. So far I've seen The Element of Crime, Europa, Breaking The Waves, Dancer in The Dark, Antichrist, Melancholia, and Nymphomaniac. I LOVED all of these projects with the exception of the latter, which I thought was OK. Breaking The Waves is now one of my top ten favorite films. I thought the depiction of Emily Watson's childish character being confused and overwhelmed by her love through primitive thinking was shockingly accurate. It actually triggered some memories from middle school and early high school, and I was in tears at many points of the film. I think he captures the emotions he depicts super accurately, and I adore how personal his films are.
I've never quite understood what it is about Von Trier that splits audiences so strongly. It's one thing to not like his films, but it seems like anyone who doesn't like him despises him and thinks he the scum of the filmmaking world. It's a polar opposite kind of thing. He's not that bad, is he? People really, really hate him. On the more juvenile discussion boards around the web, the way his critics talk about him really reminds me of the way directors like Uwe Boll Michael Bay etc. get talked about - he gets completely dismissed as a hack and anyone who isn't completely negative about him gets the "Lol GTFO idiot" treatment. I'm not necessarily here to defend Lars Von Trier; this has just always puzzled me. I love his films, and nobody else really needs to. I just don't know what makes him so horrible. I understand he's a weird person etc., but I think if nothing else he's at least a serious and passionate filmmaker. Can someone enlighten me? |
Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
I've only seen one of his films, Breaking the Waves, in it's entirety, but I felt punished by that movie. It was slow, it was difficult to watch, and I left the theater feeling depressed. His films are not my bag.
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Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
I'm actually ambivalent about Lars von Trier. I don't exactly hate it, but I don't think he's that great either. As of writing I have seen The Idiots, Dancer in the Dark, Dogville, Antichrist, and Melancholia, so that should give you an idea of my reference pool when it comes to his films. I think the main reason that von Trier would be dismissed as a hack is because, in my experience, he does peddle a rather vapid brand of arthouse filmmaking. The Idiots marked his first use of Dogme 95, a manifesto that strove to abandon cinematic artifice but in doing so created its own brand of artifice. Though von Trier later denounced the movement as a failure, he still uses the same technical style that's full of documentary-like features such as unsteady cameras and choppy editing to ground his films in a sort of realism, but it does give him a rather ostentatious cinematic trademark that may lead people to think he's trying too hard to convince viewers of the reality of any given situation.
There's also the fact that - at least in the films I've mentioned - his attempts at conveying bleak emotions and mental instability also tend to come across as extremely misanthropic. The Idiots is about people who pretend to be mentally challenged for their own amusement (under the guise of chasing a higher understanding, which seems like a deliberate attempt to mock Dogme 95 from within), Dancer in the Dark shows a disabled woman's attempts to care for her son resulting in her being put through some extremely harsh circumstances, Dogville has an entire village of well-meaning country folk descend into unquestioning barbarism with the arrival of a frightened woman running from gangsters, while Antichrist and Melancholia both feature mentally unstable protagonists whose actions may be driven by the fact that they have severe depression but the consequences of that mental illness still end up being played out pretty horribly. Just look at any of the violent acts Charlotte Gainsbourg perpetrates during the second half of Antichrist or Kirsten Dunst's self-destructive behaviour that involves her lashing out at anyone she comes into contact with during Melancholia. Hell, Antichrist in particular became notorious on the basis of its more shocking acts of physical violence more so than because of any actual depth to its surreal nightmare imagery. That probably sums up why people think von Trier is a hack - he's all sizzle and no steak. His films tend to be these harsh, miserable, pessimistic, slow-paced affairs (which are apparently influenced by his own struggle with depression) where a deliberate lack of style becomes its own style and the characters are all horrible people who are horrible to one another and to themselves. There isn't a whole lot of depth to these characters beyond the fact that they all seem to have severe psychological problems (or, in the case of The Idiots, pretend to have) that seem to be intended as excuses for the characters' more extreme deeds while also making their punishments come across as exceptionally severe. |
Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
Have seen Anti-Christ (jesus was that watch), Melancholia, and Nymphomaniac Vol I and II.
I would love to see him do something straight forward, not envelope pushing and with an actual story and plot. |
Originally Posted by Edo Dillon (Post 1337931)
To share my experience, I became hooked on Von Trier's films a while back, and he climbs my list of favorite directors with every film of his I watch. So far I've seen The Element of Crime, Europa, Breaking The Waves, Dancer in The Dark, Antichrist, Melancholia, and Nymphomaniac. I LOVED all of these projects with the exception of the latter, which I thought was OK. Breaking The Waves is now one of my top ten favorite films. I thought the depiction of Emily Watson's childish character being confused and overwhelmed by her love through primitive thinking was shockingly accurate. It actually triggered some memories from middle school and early high school, and I was in tears at many points of the film. I think he captures the emotions he depicts super accurately, and I adore how personal his films are.
I've never quite understood what it is about Von Trier that splits audiences so strongly. It's one thing to not like his films, but it seems like anyone who doesn't like him despises him and thinks he the scum of the filmmaking world. It's a polar opposite kind of thing. He's not that bad, is he? People really, really hate him. On the more juvenile discussion boards around the web, the way his critics talk about him really reminds me of the way directors like Uwe Boll Michael Bay etc. get talked about - he gets completely dismissed as a hack and anyone who isn't completely negative about him gets the "Lol GTFO idiot" treatment. I'm not necessarily here to defend Lars Von Trier; this has just always puzzled me. I love his films, and nobody else really needs to. I just don't know what makes him so horrible. I understand he's a weird person etc., but I think if nothing else he's at least a serious and passionate filmmaker. Can someone enlighten me? But ultimately that should not matter. What matters is how YOU feel about him. Obviously he has struck a personal cord with you, and when a film or filmmaker does so you know that you have found something special. Embrace it. Who cares what others have to say or even if the opinion is popular? I hold a less popular view that Kevin Smith is a fantastic director and storyteller. A sentiment not exactly shared by many outside of his core fan base. Smith is not a mainstream director, nor will he ever. But he is one of my favorite directors, and was to my teenage years what Spielberg was to my childhood and what Scorsese is to my adult life. If I find someone who shares that view, great. If not, oh well. I hold this view because despite what others on the net say, because Kevin Smith hits a very special cord for me. A cord only a handful of other directors have done. I also hold the very unpopular view that Quentin Tarantino (one of the most critically praised and beloved filmmakers of this generation) is highly overrated. A view that if I said this on other sites would result in a flame war with my credentials as a film lover, intelligence, and lets face it my sexuality called into question. If you love Von Trier and his films and they hit that special cord, then embrace it. Because when art has that kind of effect on you the director has to be doing something right. And f**k the rest who insinuate that you are any less of a cinephile for liking his movies. |
Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
You'd probably have to ask the people who hate Von Trier why they hate him. But I suspect it has to do with what can be seen as attention seeking and being deliberately controversial.
I like Breaking the Waves, Dancer in the Dark and Dogville a lot. I thought Melancholia and Manderlay were problematic, though, and I can see how if you didn't like the films, you might feel as if you were being deliberately wound up, that Lars von Trier was trolling the audience. |
Originally Posted by The Gunslinger45 (Post 1338052)
I have only seen one film of Von Trier's and that is Melancholia. It was a very difficult watch. Very dark (not a bad thing), pessimistic (in of it self not bad), slow (not bad when done correctly), and totally depressing. Then again the man does suffer from depression and that was the point of the film, so it is had for me to justify that complaint. I have not written off Von Trier yet as a filmmaker since I generally try to watch at least 3 or 4 films of theirs before I decide I have had enough. But I admit Von Trier is not really a filmmaker I am rushing to see all of his work since what I have experienced was a very challenging watch with little pay off. As such I can't really comment on Von Trier the filmmaker. The only other explanation I have is that some people hate some of Von Trier's off and on set actions, and that influences people's opinion of him. We do live in an age of "I hate X's art, politics, ideas, face etc so I must hate X as a person too."
But ultimately that should not matter. What matters is how YOU feel about him. Obviously he has struck a personal cord with you, and when a film or filmmaker does so you know that you have found something special. Embrace it. Who cares what others have to say or even if the opinion is popular? I hold a less popular view that Kevin Smith is a fantastic director and storyteller. A sentiment not exactly shared by many outside of his core fan base. Smith is not a mainstream director, nor will he ever. But he is one of my favorite directors, and was to my teenage years what Spielberg was to my childhood and what Scorsese is to my adult life. If I find someone who shares that view, great. If not, oh well. I hold this view because despite what others on the net say, because Kevin Smith hits a very special cord for me. A cord only a handful of other directors have done. I also hold the very unpopular view that Quentin Tarantino (one of the most critically praised and beloved filmmakers of this generation) is highly overrated. A view that if I said this on other sites would result in a flame war with my credentials as a film lover, intelligence, and lets face it my sexuality called into question. If you love Von Trier and his films and they hit that special cord, then embrace it. Because when art has that kind of effect on you the director has to be doing something right. And f**k the rest who insinuate that you are any less of a cinephile for liking his movies. But I guess that's tastes! People are just different, and therefore like and dislike different things for different reasons. I just think it's always interesting when certain filmmakers such as Von Trier divide audiences so strongly. It's always interesting to learn where people are coming from, their experience etc.
Originally Posted by Thursday Next (Post 1338078)
You'd probably have to ask the people who hate Von Trier why they hate him. But I suspect it has to do with what can be seen as attention seeking and being deliberately controversial.
I like Breaking the Waves, Dancer in the Dark and Dogville a lot. I thought Melancholia and Manderlay were problematic, though, and I can see how if you didn't like the films, you might feel as if you were being deliberately wound up, that Lars von Trier was trolling the audience. What I think I'm learning from this and other posts is that I'm just a sucker for the strong way Von Trier manipulates the audience's emotions. Nothing wrong with this either, but it's good to know for sure. And I love some controversy in a filmmaker; another director that's becoming one of my favorites is Jean-Luc Godard :laugh: |
Originally Posted by Mr.Sparkle (Post 1338026)
Have seen Anti-Christ (jesus was that watch), Melancholia, and Nymphomaniac Vol I and II.
I would love to see him do something straight forward, not envelope pushing and with an actual story and plot. |
Lars Von Trier is an extremely polarizing director, and I can definitely understand why many would hate him. In my experiences for every great film he has an equally mediocre and seemingly pointless film. I love Dancer in The Dark and Antichrist, I believe they are some the greatest works of the 2000s. The Element of Crime, Europa, and Melancholia on the other hand I felt completely detached to. Even in his recent of Nymphomaniac, I thought part 1 was pretty good but it started falling in the second part, with a predictable ending and some questionable scenes. Some of his film experiences can give off a Haneke/Godard effect in how pretentious they are. In Nymphomaniac it often feels like he's showing off his "knowledge" of western European culture. Instead of blending in his knowledge, he just smears it into the film. Whether it's eating the pastry with the fork or the connections Seligman makes, it's all unnaturally put in. He uses pretentious characters to spew out his faux sense of culture. Directors like Bunuel and Woody Allen show that you can still bring culture into a film, without just making it seem like you're showing off your knowledge. His films are polarizing and so is the man himself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpUqpLh0iRw I thought this was a funny moment in how awkward he was- I even used a screenshot of it as my avatar at one point- but it's a stupid thing to say and even past the language barrier he comes off as an idiot the way he puts his statement. I understand he was joking, but really shows his lack of judgement. If there's any director where it would make sense how some can love him and many others can hate him, it's Lars Von Trier |
Originally Posted by donniedarko (Post 1338100)
Lars Von Trier is an extremely polarizing director, and I can definitely understand why many would hate him. In my experiences for every great film he has an equally mediocre and seemingly pointless film. I love Dancer in The Dark and Antichrist, I believe they are some the greatest works of the 2000s.
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Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
You do realize that Von Trier has made some controversial remark and that him and Nicolas Winding Refn had a confrontation as well..
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ntrovery/?_r=0 http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...r-2352550.html I, myself, is a huge fan of Danish cinema... and I enjoy both directors films. Von Trier, I have seen "Medea", "Dogville", "Breaking the Waves", "Antichrist", "Manderlay", "Melancholia" and "Nymphomanic 1 & 2". I enjoy Von Trier's style. His films always tend to surprise me. My best friend is a huge Von Trier fan. Winding Refn, I have seen "Pusher", "With Blood On My Hands: Pusher 2", "Bleeder", "Pusher 3", "Bronson", "Valhalla Rising" and "Drive" (which I did not care much for). I have seen the same amount of films from both.. but as far as the comment about Nazis that Von Trier made and Winding Refn commented on.... I would say that yeah... a lot of people are going to dislike Von Trier. I wont stop watching his films but he's not my personal favorite anymore. |
Originally Posted by MovieGal (Post 1338158)
You do realize that Von Trier has made some controversial remark and that him and Nicolas Winding Refn had a confrontation as well..
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ntrovery/?_r=0 http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...r-2352550.html I, myself, is a huge fan of Danish cinema... and I enjoy both directors films. Von Trier, I have seen "Medea", "Dogville", "Breaking the Waves", "Antichrist", "Manderlay", "Melancholia" and "Nymphomanic 1 & 2". I enjoy Von Trier's style. His films always tend to surprise me. My best friend is a huge Von Trier fan. Winding Refn, I have seen "Pusher", "With Blood On My Hands: Pusher 2", "Bleeder", "Pusher 3", "Bronson", "Valhalla Rising" and "Drive" (which I did not care much for). I have seen the same amount of films from both.. but as far as the comment about Nazis that Von Trier made and Winding Refn commented on.... I would say that yeah... a lot of people are going to dislike Von Trier. I wont stop watching his films but he's not my personal favorite anymore. I've actually never really thought much about such comments that he's made. He really will say anything and everything, and his behavior is so erratic that I never took it seriously. I just can't get offended by a man who's so obviously out of his mind. It's really weird; Lars Von Trier the person seems so different from Lars Von Trier the filmmaker. In public appearances he's a weirdo and a complete troll, but his films feel so honest and vulnerable IMO. Now that I think about it, it's pretty crazy that this man made those films. I can definitely see why that would make him easy to dislike, but his media personality certainly doesn't make his films any better or worse. There's lots of people that hate Von Trier the filmmaker, and not just Von Trier the person. This is definitely a side of him worth noting though. |
Originally Posted by Edo Dillon (Post 1338209)
The Cannes comment is notorious, but this was the first I'd heard about this feud with Nicolas Winding Refn.
I've actually never really thought much about such comments that he's made. He really will say anything and everything, and his behavior is so erratic that I never took it seriously. I just can't get offended by a man who's so obviously out of his mind. It's really weird; Lars Von Trier the person seems so different from Lars Von Trier the filmmaker. In public appearances he's a weirdo and a complete troll, but his films feel so honest and vulnerable IMO. Now that I think about it, it's pretty crazy that this man made those films. I can definitely see why that would make him easy to dislike, but his media personality certainly doesn't make his films any better or worse. There's lots of people that hate Von Trier the filmmaker, and not just Von Trier the person. This is definitely a side of him worth noting though. Winding Refn, I love his work as well... but please go back to using Mads Mikkelsen and get rid of Ryan Gosling.. |
Originally Posted by MovieGal (Post 1338210)
I need to see more Von Trier.. some of the films I have seen are pretty rare for others to see.... but like I said.. My best friend loves his work...
Winding Refn, I love his work as well... but please go back to using Mads Mikkelsen and get rid of Ryan Gosling.. I actually didn't realize he was Danish until now. This thing with Von Trier looks prettty interesting. If you like Danish, do you also like Carl Theodor Dreyer? :D |
Originally Posted by Edo Dillon (Post 1338214)
I've been meaning to check out Winding Refn, but needed that reminder. Thanks!
I actually didn't realize he was Danish until now. This thing with Von Trier looks prettty interesting. If you like Danish, do you also like Carl Theodor Dreyer? :D more recent directors I enjoy from Denmark are Thomas Vinterberg, Kristian Levring, Susanne Bier and Anders Thomas Jensen. and Im a big fan of certain Danish actors ~ Mads Mikkelsen (whose the dark haired in my avatar), Ulrich Thomsen, Thomas Bo Larsen, Kim Bodnia and several others. |
Although many consider his films as extremely pretentious just for the pleasure of being (something with which I personally disagree), I think that most people who hate him are for reasons that transcend beyond his cinematic work.
Originally Posted by Kaplan (Post 1338147)
The best thing to do with Lars von Trier is not to pay attention to him as a man, but to only look at his work, for good or bad.
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Originally Posted by Kaplan (Post 1338147)
Have you seen Dogville? It's one of my favorite films of the 2000s. I'm less familiar with his earlier work. I disliked Melancholia overall, and I couldn't get past the stupidity of the "dance of death," and while I've had Nymphomaniac in my Netflix queue for the last year, I still haven't watched it yet. Dancer in the Dark is very good and Antichrist has perhaps the most pervasively evil tone of any movie I've ever seen. The best thing to do with Lars von Trier is not to pay attention to him as a man, but to only look at his work, for good or bad.
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Originally Posted by Tenebra (Post 1338235)
Although many consider his films as extremely pretentious just for the pleasure of being (something with which I personally disagree), I think that most people who hate him are for reasons that transcend beyond his cinematic work.
That's what should be done not only with Von Trier, but with everyone else. The "problem" is that many people believe that public figures must conform to a certain type of behavior, as if they were obliged to behave in certain ways, but it isn't so, it is an erroneous preconceptions. |
Originally Posted by donniedarko (Post 1338241)
but it's the publics right to judge a person on his actions.
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Originally Posted by Tenebra (Post 1338255)
Right? What right can have the public to judge the actions of a person? Absolutely none, and therein lies part of the confusion. You may like or not the things he does with his life and his statements beyond his job, but judge a person is something different and almost out of place. We are not to evaluate or judge a person by events that are part of his life, but his work in any case.
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