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-   -   Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri (2017) (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=52674)

GulfportDoc 01-08-18 08:32 PM

Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri (2017)
 
Three Billboards Outside of Ebbing, Missouri (2017)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...C_Missouri.png

Evidently "Three Billboards" has become the official "in" movie at this time. And because of the promise from this superb cast, anticipation built as the opening credits concluded. However a mild gnawing suspicion soon formed in the back of my mind when most of the dialogue was littered with "F" words. Hardly a sentence could be delivered without generous portions of the word in every conceivable grammatical usage: noun, adjective, adverb, other. It's as if at the script meetings, a line could not be approved unless it contained a minimum of three "F" usages. Is it that we are tasked with believing that this is common small town speech; or is it that the use of the word must be included in any modern progressive banter? Its prevalence gradually came to be like fingernails scraping on a blackboard. It was doubly annoying after just recently watching I, Tonya, which suffered under the same handicap.


The film has two strong attractions: 1. a heavenly alluring title, and, 2. a cast of heavyweight actors. Unfortunately the movie was basically a clever plot device searching for a believable story to go along with it. Reportedly writer/director Martin McDonagh saw similar billboards regarding a crime somewhere in the southeastern U.S., and decided to write a story using the incidence. But having introduced the billboards, the screenplay soon abandoned the title, the billboards, and their usefulness.

[spoilers] At about 30 minutes into the film, the Sheriff (Woody Harrelson) visits Mildred Hayes (Frances McDormand) to explain to her why the investigation into her daughter's murder had stalled: there was little evidence, no eye witnesses, and the DNA and fingerprints did not match anyone in the criminal databases. So unless someone were to finger the perpetrator, there was little else that could be done. This is totally plausible, and in reality brought the entire movie's premise to an end. So with Mildred's and the film's justification for the plot pulled out from under them, all that followed was groundless, muddled, or silly.

Hitchcock stated to Francois Truffaut that in film, "Whatever is said instead of being shown is lost upon the viewer." In this case we are not shown the crime, and there is minimal description of it. So on good faith alone we are supposed to understand why the McDormand character has turned into a miserable, monomaniacal, wretch, whose sole purpose in life has become to embarrass, then terrorize an entire town-- but without justification.

In order to continue the film's shaky plot, they simply switched the focus of Mildred's rage to a dumb, hackneyed racist (what else?) deputy sheriff. Despite the character's triteness, he at least provided a suitable living breathing foil on which to base most of the rest of the movie.

Credit must be given to the fine performances by McDormand, Harrelson, Sam Rockwell, and the inestimable John Hawkes, along with a first rate supporting cast.

But it was the screen play and dialogue that came up short. Several characters complete 2 or 3 major personality changes. Rockwell's deputy sheriff alone transformed from a moronic bigoted dufus to a sharp caring sleuth in the space of about 45 minute's screen time.

In the process many of the usual trite Hollywood cliches were featured: a mother enraged over her daughter's senseless killing (you go, girl!); the hick racist deputy; the crotch kick; a dwarf explaining that dwarfs are in fact real people; the new black replacement sheriff (who looked like he stepped off the appellate bench) to can the deputy and institute racial equality; the ogre ex-husband takes up with a younger woman; and the like. One looses count. And perhaps the writers did not know that pancreatic cancer does not cause coughing up blood.

In the end, the newly enlightened pairing of Mildred and the reformed deputy decide to go ahead and hunt to kill a man who they presume must have raped someone at some time. After all the daughter's killer had not yet been found, so someone deserves to die, right? But we're left with the question: will they really do it? Would this ending fit better on some other film?

Evidently this is all acceptable under the "black comedy" distinction. When the writers do not commit to credibility, anything goes. However in this case there was very little comedy, and the black tended more towards gray.

Doc's rating: 6 of 10, based on the acting.

urkillinmesmalls 01-08-18 09:04 PM

Re: Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri (2017)
 
This is my favorite of the year from what I've seen, but that's me

mark f 01-08-18 09:27 PM

Re: Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri (2017)
 
And me.

GulfportDoc 01-09-18 07:56 PM

Urkillin and Mark-- If you don't mind me asking, what did you find impressive about "Three Billboards" outside of the fine acting?

And were you fans of McDonagh's previous outings, In Bruges and Seven Psychopaths?

Thanks,
~Doc

A to Z Movie Show 01-09-18 09:31 PM

It's not that Three Billboards is bad. It's not. I walked away thinking that this movie was great and, after setting for a couple hours, thinking it was pretty good. In a film industry with a lot of bulk and revenue-grabbers, 'pretty good' is above average. If I remember correctly, I gave this a 3.5/5.0 in my podcast review last month. If anything, this is an award-grabber.

I disagree with you slightly in that there is nothing wrong with the plot being focused around the grieving mother of a brutally-murdered daughter. Yes, it is an easy win with audiences, but it is a human story worth telling a thousand times. There is also nothing wrong with telling the story of a corrupt police department, although it could have been done better in this film.

Many of us can relate to the pure rage that we see from her in this movie, and Frances McDormand's performance brought this to life. However, I agree with the OP that her anger and disgust are, to a degree, unwarranted which undermines the credibility of the story. At the end of the day, neither Mildred nor the audience has any reason to believe that the police department did anything wrong in the investigation of the murder of Mildred's daughter.

There were some plot points that were enjoyable, but I could not see the contribution it made to the overall story. Exhibit A: the death of Willoughby. Exhibit B: the interactions between Mildred and Peter Dinklage's character.

There were important plot points that are relevant and relatable in today's American society. The acting was overall very good. There were some cool scenes (e.g. the scene where the police department first notices the billboards), but also some that focused that did not contribute very much to the film as a whole.

My college buddy, AJ, and I talk about this movie more in-depth in our review which you can find on YouTube by searching The A to Z Movie Show Three Billboards.

GulfportDoc 01-10-18 08:13 PM

Good comments, Charlie. I did listen to part of your and your friend's review.

Yeah, McDormand's and Perkins' dialogue was pure corn. Did the dwarf really say, "Excuse me, I have to go to the little boys' room"...:rolleyes:

McDonagh is primarily an Irish playwright. In this outing he tried his best to imitate the Cohen brothers, even to the point of writing a part with Frances McDormand in mind. And in that aspect he came up short.

But "Three Billboards" will get awards, so hopefully that will provide him with the capital to do better movies. Once he's more familiar with the American language, and settles down a bit, his films are likely to improve. OTOH, he might end up being a flash in the pan...:D

~Doc

rauldc14 01-10-18 08:34 PM

Re: Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri (2017)
 
I don't know though. I liked The Shape of Water, Lady Bird and even probably Dunkirk more than this.

Of all the years for them to go for the safe pick, they probably will this year.

Iroquois 01-11-18 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by GulfportDoc (Post 1850367)
[spoilers] At about 30 minutes into the film, the Sheriff (Woody Harrelson) visits Mildred Hayes (Frances McDormand) to explain to her why the investigation into her daughter's murder had stalled: there was little evidence, no eye witnesses, and the DNA and fingerprints did not match anyone in the criminal databases. So unless someone were to finger the perpetrator, there was little else that could be done. This is totally plausible, and in reality brought the entire movie's premise to an end. So with Mildred's and the film's justification for the plot pulled out from under them, all that followed was groundless, muddled, or silly.
It only "brings the premise to an end" if you're expecting this to unfold like your standard procedural narrative where the perpetrator stands a good chance of being caught or found out by the time the credits roll. In outlining from the start that the chances of anyone being brought to justice are remote (if not nonexistent), the focus shifts away from wondering about the mystery being solved to seeing how the fallout influences the characters and their actions.

Hitchcock stated to Francois Truffaut that in film, "Whatever is said instead of being shown is lost upon the viewer." In this case we are not shown the crime, and there is minimal description of it. So on good faith alone we are supposed to understand why the McDormand character has turned into a miserable, monomaniacal, wretch, whose sole purpose in life has become to embarrass, then terrorize an entire town-- but without justification.
Seeing as how the film is focused on the people dealing with the aftermath of the crime, it makes sense to frame the crime as something that happens off-screen, and I think that having it be summed up as involving the victim being raped and set on fire (before or after being murdered) seems disturbing enough without having it be depicted on-screen lest it come across as needlessly sensationalised (and you're already taking the film to task for its excessive profanity anyway). More importantly, we get a flashback to the last moment that Mildred and Angela ever interact and it's just a heated argument - it even concludes with Angela storming out saying she might get raped and Mildred screaming back that she hopes Angela gets raped, which adds an extra layer to Mildred's relentless dedication to finding justice for Angela in a way that seeing yet another graphic murder unfolding on screen wouldn't.

In order to continue the film's shaky plot, they simply switched the focus of Mildred's rage to a dumb, hackneyed racist (what else?) deputy sheriff. Despite the character's triteness, he at least provided a suitable living breathing foil on which to base most of the rest of the movie.
...
But it was the screen play and dialogue that came up short. Several characters complete 2 or 3 major personality changes. Rockwell's deputy sheriff alone transformed from a moronic bigoted dufus to a sharp caring sleuth in the space of about 45 minute's screen time.
A lot can happen in 45 minutes (such as losing his job and getting set on fire causing him being reason enough to affect at least a little change) and even his sleuthing is less sharp than both lucky (he happens to overhear someone bragging?) and also clumsy (he gets badly beaten up in a bar fight just to acquire a suspect's DNA for testing).

In the process many of the usual trite Hollywood cliches were featured: a mother enraged over her daughter's senseless killing (you go, girl!); the hick racist deputy; the crotch kick; a dwarf explaining that dwarfs are in fact real people; the new black replacement sheriff (who looked like he stepped off the appellate bench) to can the deputy and institute racial equality; the ogre ex-husband takes up with a younger woman; and the like. One looses count. And perhaps the writers did not know that pancreatic cancer does not cause coughing up blood.
I figured the cancer had metastasized

In the end, the newly enlightened pairing of Mildred and the reformed deputy decide to go ahead and hunt to kill a man who they presume must have raped someone at some time. After all the daughter's killer had not yet been found, so someone deserves to die, right? But we're left with the question: will they really do it? Would this ending fit better on some other film?
It sounds about as appropriate an ending for this kind of film as any - as noted earlier, there never was going to be a neat and easy-to-expect conclusion.

Doc's rating: 6 of 10, based on the acting.
How do I manage to defend this film and still end up giving it a lower rating than you do?

GulfportDoc 01-11-18 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 1851175)
It only "brings the premise to an end" if you're expecting this to unfold like your standard procedural narrative where the perpetrator stands a good chance of being caught or found out by the time the credits roll. In outlining from the start that the chances of anyone being brought to justice are remote (if not nonexistent), the focus shifts away from wondering about the mystery being solved to seeing how the fallout influences the characters and their actions.
...
The entire basis of the film was that, because Mildred was resentful and enraged over her belief that the sheriff's department was not doing enough to catch her daughter's murderer, she leased three billboards on a main road designed to shame the department and the town into more action and to blame them for dropping the ball. But when it turns out that the department did everything that was possible to do, and that there were no leads or evidence, at that point Mildred's rage at the department effectively had no grounds.

Without a meaningful premise, a spine if you will, the movie became weak. That's why it was necessary to shift focus onto several side plots: the trite racist deputy, the kindly dwarf (who tells us that dwarfs are in fact real people), Mildred's vengeful acts, and so on.


But Mildred raged on, railing against the townspeople who were incredulous at her fury; and ultimately burning down the sheriff's department. Silliness.
It sounds about as appropriate an ending for this kind of film as any - as noted earlier, there never was going to be a neat and easy-to-expect conclusion.
Since they veered way off track in the last 2/3rds of the movie, there were any number of ways they could have ended it: They could have had the sheriff turn out to be the rapist murder; Mildred could have gone further off the deep end and started to kill someone else's daughter, but then realized how deep her monomania had become; the reformed deputy and Mildred could have entered into a romantic liaison, after they'd both "seen the light"; or they could have ended up laughing the whole thing off; and so on. Something could have fit the story better than what was used.

I should add that McDormand is one of my favorite actresses. But this film has "we're looking for an Oscar" written all over it.
How do I manage to defend this film and still end up giving it a lower rating than you do?
Good one...:D Perhaps you're willing to give them more credit than I.

~Doc

Iroquois 01-12-18 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by GulfportDoc (Post 1851530)
The entire basis of the film was that, because Mildred was resentful and enraged over her belief that the sheriff's department was not doing enough to catch her daughter's murderer, she leased three billboards on a main road designed to shame the department and the town into more action and to blame them for dropping the ball. But when it turns out that the department did everything that was possible to do, and that there were no leads or evidence, at that point Mildred's rage at the department effectively had no grounds.

Without a meaningful premise, a spine if you will, the movie became weak. That's why it was necessary to shift focus onto several side plots: the trite racist deputy, the kindly dwarf (who tells us that dwarfs are in fact real people), Mildred's vengeful acts, and so on.


But Mildred raged on, railing against the townspeople who were incredulous at her fury; and ultimately burning down the sheriff's department. Silliness.
The fact that it has no rational grounds is the point, though. Logically, we recognise that there's nothing more that can be done but human beings aren't 100% logical all the time (especially not those who are emotionally affected by something like having their own child brutally murdered). The same goes for the chaotic jumble of side-plots - I wouldn't count Mildred's further actions since those really are the continued development of the main plot, where the main narrative tension does come from how much further Mildred is willing to push things and where she and the other characters will end up because of it.

[b]Since they veered way off track in the last 2/3rds of the movie, there were any number of ways they could have ended it: They could have had the sheriff turn out to be the rapist murder; Mildred could have gone further off the deep end and started to kill someone else's daughter, but then realized how deep her monomania had become; the reformed deputy and Mildred could have entered into a romantic liaison, after they'd both "seen the light"; or they could have ended up laughing the whole thing off; and so on. Something could have fit the story better than what was used.
I'm surprised you didn't throw in ghosts or aliens while you were at it. Thinking about how a story "should've" gone isn't a good way to think about it because you risk becoming too wrapped up in imagining a version you find personally satisfying instead of trying to think about how the story as is was trying to be good.

Good one...:D Perhaps you're willing to give them more credit than I.

~Doc
Or you just overrate stuff. You're allowed to say that the performances are good but still think the film as a whole is bad.

GulfportDoc 01-12-18 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 1851693)
...
I'm surprised you didn't throw in ghosts or aliens while you were at it. Thinking about how a story "should've" gone isn't a good way to think about it because you risk becoming too wrapped up in imagining a version you find personally satisfying instead of trying to think about how the story as is was trying to be good.
...
I offered a few example of alternate endings in response to your comment about your belief that the ending was appropriate. It's hard to imagine any ending that would have saved this film, although ghosts or aliens might have done the trick.:)

Here is a reply to my interview from a friend of mine who is a veteran Hollywood film actor. He makes some insightful points: ~Doc

"You were too kind Doc. The worst kind of story telling. Contrived and every moment was made to spark a visceral response from the audience. As if it were the days when people on Acid would find everything amazing as long as it sounded or seen as a loud burst that would attack your senses.
Well I was stoned sober when I sat down to this film and felt like I was being conned by a half wit.
I guess this is what audiences like nowadays. At least Marvel and their super heroes make no pretense about art. They just give you bells and whistles for the fun of it. You know that when you get your ticket.
Now you know as well as I it doesn't take four letter words to make a person tough and mean. It resides in you. Read a Jim Thompson book to learn what mean is. Read David Goodis. These idiots would squeal under a Thompson character. Take for instance the whole concept about the sheriff being a racist. C'mon folks. That does not alleviate Hollywood from being the real asinine racists who put one arm around Oprah and having their maids, gardeners, and valets as their best friends.
The scene in the first 15 minutes where the young black billboard employee spits at the sheriff is highly unbelievable and only serves as a relief for those non racists Hollywood types. Feel better?
The first half hour was full of scenes not needed to convey anguish and hate. It has to come from real conflicts and not politically correct ones.
McDormand trapped herself in to play acting. She doesn't need to. She is good enough and has the power in the business to run the ship right. See her in Olive Kittridge. See her in Fargo. This director and writer conned her into silliness. Ive said enough."

Holden Pike 01-12-18 10:45 AM

"Penelope said 'begets'?" is still my favorite line of the year. :D

Siddon 01-13-18 01:35 AM

Uh....I hate reviews like this as the reviewers missed the entire point of the movie.

1. The movie is not a murder mystery, it's set up like a murder mystery but it is in fact a morality tale.

2. Sam Rockwell is not a genius investigator or even a good person. He is not redeemed at the end he is doomed at the end same as Mildred.

McDormand character has turned into a miserable, monomaniacal, wretch, whose sole purpose in life has become to embarrass, then terrorize an entire town-- but without justification.
You missed the point of the flashbacks, Mildred didn't become this miserable person she was always miserable it was the death of her child that embolden her to terrorize the sheriff the same way she terrorized her family.

Rockwell's deputy sheriff alone transformed from a moronic bigoted dufus to a sharp caring sleuth in the space of about 45 minute's screen time.
Once again...no you are completely wrong about Rockwell's character. He's not a great sleuth he was in a bar and he overheard a confession and he took a beating. The deputy is a martyr, he takes care of his mother, loses his job in a misguided attempt at saving his bosses honor and ends the film giving up his freedom and his life for Mildred. We're told he's a racist but do we ever see him act like a bigot?

In the end, the newly enlightened pairing of Mildred and the reformed deputy decide to go ahead and hunt to kill a man who they presume must have raped someone at some time. After all the daughter's killer had not yet been found, so someone deserves to die, right? But we're left with the question: will they really do it? Would this ending fit better on some other film?
The ending is perfect because it lines up with each characters nature. Mildred's rage has taken a new focus away from her abusive husband and dead daughter...she's not going to hunt this guy. Jason has a new cause to pay his penance by executing this rapist.

You can look at the ending as a positive, that they will walk the earth doing good deeds like Jules at the end of Pulp Fiction. Or they are doomed like Thelma and Louise driving off that cliff and ending their suffering.

Iroquois 01-13-18 02:02 AM

Originally Posted by GulfportDoc (Post 1851708)
I offered a few example of alternate endings in response to your comment about your belief that the ending was appropriate. It's hard to imagine any ending that would have saved this film, although ghosts or aliens might have done the trick.:)
All I'm saying is that "I thought this movie was stupid and here's how I think it should have been stupider" is not a particularly insightful means of criticising a work.

"You were too kind Doc. The worst kind of story telling. Contrived and every moment was made to spark a visceral response from the audience. As if it were the days when people on Acid would find everything amazing as long as it sounded or seen as a loud burst that would attack your senses.
Well I was stoned sober when I sat down to this film and felt like I was being conned by a half wit.
I guess this is what audiences like nowadays. At least Marvel and their super heroes make no pretense about art. They just give you bells and whistles for the fun of it. You know that when you get your ticket.
Now you know as well as I it doesn't take four letter words to make a person tough and mean. It resides in you. Read a Jim Thompson book to learn what mean is. Read David Goodis. These idiots would squeal under a Thompson character. Take for instance the whole concept about the sheriff being a racist. C'mon folks. That does not alleviate Hollywood from being the real asinine racists who put one arm around Oprah and having their maids, gardeners, and valets as their best friends.
The scene in the first 15 minutes where the young black billboard employee spits at the sheriff is highly unbelievable and only serves as a relief for those non racists Hollywood types. Feel better?
The first half hour was full of scenes not needed to convey anguish and hate. It has to come from real conflicts and not politically correct ones.
McDormand trapped herself in to play acting. She doesn't need to. She is good enough and has the power in the business to run the ship right. See her in Olive Kittridge. See her in Fargo. This director and writer conned her into silliness. Ive said enough."
Your friend needs to work on his insights, though. Just about everyone in the movie is a foul-mouthed small-town denizen regardless of whether they're "tough and mean". Does Hollywood hypocrisy mean that films just straight-up shouldn't touch on racism ever? How exactly does he differentiate between "real" conflicts and "politically correct" conflicts anyway (and how does the conflict driving Three Billboards not count as real)? Making the deputy a racist doesn't let the audience off the hook, especially when his later actions make the audience question whether he deserves a standard redemption arc or if he's even getting one (especially when a common criticism is that he's too bad a guy to actually deserve redemption in the first place).

Originally Posted by Holden Pike (Post 1851710)
"Penelope said 'begets'?" is still my favorite line of the year. :D
I have a soft spot for "Oh...my...God...the hammer pulled you off?" myself. This should be its own thread, actually.

GulfportDoc 01-13-18 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 1852136)
All I'm saying is that "I thought this movie was stupid and here's how I think it should have been stupider" is not a particularly insightful means of criticising a work.
...
I would ask you to not fabricate a quote, then ascribe it to me, then criticize the fake quote and its premise. If you're attempting to belittle someone's insights, try to avoid self-delusion.

~Doc

Monkeypunch 01-13-18 09:06 PM

Re: Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri (2017)
 
All the words in bold type just makes me feel like the OP is shouting all of this. :lol:

Iroquois 01-14-18 05:28 AM

Originally Posted by GulfportDoc (Post 1852455)
I would ask you to not fabricate a quote, then ascribe it to me, then criticize the fake quote and its premise. If you're attempting to belittle someone's insights, try to avoid self-delusion.

~Doc
Then I would ask you to recognise that the quote was intended as a generalised rhetorical device instead of a personal attack and outline exactly how that quote contradicts your post's actual premise. If you're attempting to point out flaws in my argument, try to be clearer about how I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Monkeypunch (Post 1852457)
All the words in bold type just makes me feel like the OP is shouting all of this. :lol:
It's especially weird since every paragraph is individually bolded even without quotes breaking them up.

GulfportDoc 01-14-18 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by Monkeypunch All the words in bold type just makes me feel like the OP is shouting all of this. :laugh:
Originally Posted by Iroquois (Post 1852614)
... It's especially weird since every paragraph is individually bolded even without quotes breaking them up.
Pull yourselves together, laddies! Don't be so faint hearted..:D I use bold type because of poor eyesight.

~Doc

doubledenim 01-28-18 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by GulfportDoc (Post 1851708)


Here is a reply to my interview from a friend of mine who is a veteran Hollywood film actor. He makes some insightful points: ~Doc

...

Well I was stoned sober when I sat down to this film and felt like I was being conned by a half wit. ...

This sums up how I felt about the movie in a way. I can feel the messages that were trying to being conveyed, but the attempted wit or extreme violence just didn't reinforce things. I had said that the Coens do a great job making absurdity believable. McDonagh doesn't have that touch with this film.

GulfportDoc 01-28-18 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by doubledenim (Post 1859145)

This sums up how I felt about the movie in a way. I can feel the messages that were trying to being conveyed, but the attempted wit or extreme violence just didn't reinforce things. I had said that the Coens do a great job making absurdity believable. McDonagh doesn't have that touch with this film.
I agree. But even so, McDonagh might reasonably have had a better picture with some tweaks to the story and a tempering of a couple of the action scenes.

This was a shameless attempt to get an Oscar for Frances McDormand. I'm sure everyone in Hollywood understood that, but they still voted her in for the nomination, along with the picture itself. And McDormand certainly can't be blamed for taking a shot at the big O. She's one of the very best in the business, and has not only paid her dues, but has likely been passed over for top performances in previous years.

~Doc


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