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-   -   Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=59710)

John McClane 07-23-19 01:35 PM

Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I honestly cannot distinguish the right from the left or the left from the right these days. Which got me thinking: will we be able to recognize the warning signs before authoritarianism takes over?

History shows us that it can arise from the ultra-progressive left just as easily as it can arise from the ultra-conservative right. Extremes bring about extremism.

What do you think? Are developed countries in danger?

NOTE: Not looking to start a flame war or anything. :sick::cool: I just think we can all agree that the divisiveness in the world (namely the UK and USA) is dangerous, yes?

Citizen Rules 07-23-19 02:04 PM

"The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations."

I was going to say that was a quote from Thomas Jefferson, but research shows it's an amalgamation by another author of bits and pieces of what Jefferson had wrote in various letters....At any rate, I believe it as gospel.

Yoda 07-23-19 02:16 PM

Horseshoe theory:

In political science and popular discourse,[1] the horseshoe theory asserts that the far-left and the far-right, rather than being at opposite and opposing ends of a linear political continuum, closely resemble one another, much like the ends of a horseshoe. The theory is attributed to French philosopher and writer Jean-Pierre Faye.[2] Proponents of the theory point to a number of similarities between the far-left and the far-right, including their supposed propensity to gravitate to authoritarianism or totalitarianism. Horseshoe theory has also received substantial criticism.[3][4][4][5]

Citizen Rules 07-23-19 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025229)
I honestly cannot distinguish the right from the left or the left from the right these days. Which got me thinking: will we be able to recognize the warning signs before authoritarianism takes over?

History shows us that it can arise from the ultra-progressive left just as easily as it can arise from the ultra-conservative right. Extremes bring about extremism.

What do you think? Are developed countries in danger?

NOTE: Not looking to start a flame war or anything. :sick::cool: I just think we can all agree that the divisiveness in the world (namely the UK and USA) is dangerous, yes?
Interesting topic for a thread...I agree flame wars are stupid and counterproductive, so have no place in a real conversation.

You first:) elaborate on what you think and I'll try to respond (no flames:eek: I promise, not my style).

John McClane 07-23-19 05:12 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I think the most telling example is the rhetoric used to energize the base of each respective side.

We have one side essentially calling the other unAmerican for not living up to its ideals of freedom for all and the promise of a better life. Then we have the other side calling the other anti-American for not expressing undying love and admiration for America.

Trump's claims that "the Squad" hate America plays to this idea that the other side is bad for America and leading us down the wrong path.

Now I will grant that some of this rhetoric is older than time itself but I would say that the voracity of it is unmatched by recent history. I would even go so far as to say that immediately following the 9/11 attacks we didn't even see the kind of comments we are seeing today.

There seems to be this underlying idea that if you stand against the other then your allegiance is questionable at best and nonexistent at worst.

I think this type of behavior is reminiscent of radical government takeovers in France, Germany, and Russia. If we look at the language that was spoke before the French revolution, the rise of the Nazi party, or the ascent of the Bolsheviks then we will find a mirror image of the current state of politics in the UK and the USA. If you're not with us then you are against the Party, the People, and the State.

Sir Toose 07-23-19 07:56 PM

I think we live in an oligarchy, not a democracy.

The corporations and the uber wealthy use their money to influence/buy conditions that favor them. There's always been rich and poor people - but the degree of difference between them has skyrocketed over the past few decades. Most new wealth (around 85%) goes straight to the top 5% because conditions favor them. Meanwhile, the middle class is shrinking.

I think all of the pageantry around who will get the nomination is more a romance between candidates and those who could finance their campaigns. We the People don't decide anymore - we're presented with a 'choice' that have both been vetted by big money interests. It doesn't matter who wins - a candidate from either 'side' will accomplish the exact same things. The only difference is in ideology presented - has nothing to do with the reality of what the candidate's term will bear. Did Obama actually DO anything that McCain or Romney wouldn't have done? I don't think so because they all cut the same deals.

Anyone who really would not cooperate with the oligarchy will never get a place on the ballot. Bernie, for example, will never get on the ballot and neither will Elizabeth Warren because both have vowed to separate money from politics. Tulsi Gabbard is the best candidate I've seen in 30 years but she won't be on the ballot either.

doubledenim 07-23-19 08:21 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Politics at times, seems to be like following a sports team, for people who don't watch sports.






John McClane 07-23-19 09:01 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Boy and I thought I was cynical. :D @Sir Toose I would mostly agree but I think the 2016 election has shown us just how vulnerable the ballot is to outside influence. Either with dark money or technology.

And I’m Steve Bullock all the way.

Sir Toose 07-23-19 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by doubledenim (Post 2025304)
Politics at times, seems to be like following a sports team, for people who don't watch sports.





All you need to know about politics is the golden rule.
Those with the gold make the rules. If thatís not you then your participation is pretty inconsequential.

Now Iím really gonna get called a cynic:D

Sir Toose 07-23-19 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025307)
Boy and I thought I was cynical. :D @Sir Toose I would mostly agree but I think the 2016 election has shown us just how vulnerable the ballot is to outside influence. Either with dark money or technology.

And Iím Steve Bullock all the way.
Just read his website... seems like solid dude.

Ever read Chris Hedges aka Truthdig? Provides proof for much of what Iíve said (well, more like evidence but still).

John McClane 07-23-19 10:48 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I love Truthdig.

But I still believe there are avenues and methods of uprooting the status quo. We have created tools that we still havenít even fully grasped the power of and I think the 2016 election showed us that. And now we have even newer technologies on the horizon that will change change the game again. We are entering the post-truth era.

nebbit 07-23-19 11:40 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
https://media1.tenor.com/images/ab2d...itemid=8049865

Sir Toose 07-23-19 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025322)
We are entering the post-truth era.
Have you seen those deepfake things? Basically A.I. face mapping that learns from video footage. Here's an example if you haven't seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG_NZpkttXE

From now on, anyone can say anything on video footage. We won't know the truth or where to begin to look for it very soon from now.

ynwtf 07-24-19 12:16 AM

Iderno. Post 9/11 felt pretty intense, if I remember correctly. Freedom fries replaced 'french' fries in government cafeterias and the statement, "You're either with us or against us" drew a few headlines for a divide that seeped into the everyman. Hannity was pretty great at making Colmes look like a weak and sniveling stereotype without much effort. Granted social media didn't really exist the way it does today, but cable news did. As well as talk radio. I think it has gotten worse across the board but that's not to say 2001 was without its partisan hackery, planting the seeds for new, for-profit entities to take root and follow the model.

John McClane 07-24-19 12:20 AM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Yes, that’s exactly what I was talking about @Sir Toose.

7thson 07-24-19 01:48 PM

There is so much hypocrisy in congress right now and it spills over into the general public and into our homes and businesses. Extreme and absolute terms are tossed around leaving no gray area to work within, which most of us know is where most of our lives exist. The horseshoe theory is interesting on the surface but it doesn't go far to explaining or resolving many of the current details our country is facing.

For example watching the hearings today reinforced my belief that many of our convictions are being feed to us. What was once an outrage is now embraces and visa versa, it all depends on who says it and how it is said more than what the topic is about. Both sides are guilty so not throwing stones here, but what is frustrating is how debate, healthy debate is almost impossible to be had. I consider myself a moderate conservative or at least I used to, not I am not sure how to label myself because moderates to some are now extreme and extremists are now Nazis. I get called racist if I support a view that Trump supports. I do not support a view because Trump supports it, but because I do. Just like I disagree with a hell of a lot he supports.

It is easy go on tangents and I do not want to delve off on things , that is not my goal here, I just love healthy constructive debate with open-minded participants who are capable of compromise and not many places offer that outlet . Good post.

Citizen Rules 07-24-19 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025264)
...Now I will grant that some of this rhetoric is older than time itself but I would say that the voracity of it is unmatched by recent history. I would even go so far as to say that immediately following the 9/11 attacks we didn't even see the kind of comments we are seeing today....
Good post McClane...I almost voted for you for President a few years back:p....I know next to nothing about politics, but I do know it 'feels' like after 9/11 the world got way more intense and uglier in just about every way imaginable.

Tugg 07-24-19 02:17 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Things turned for the worse with Brexit vote and Trump election in 2016.

Yoda 07-24-19 02:25 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Hot take: a lot of stuff was already bad, and those two things were a response to it, and merely brought a lot of issues to the surface.

John McClane 07-24-19 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2025497)
Hot take: a lot of stuff was already bad, and those two things were a response to it, and merely brought a lot of issues to the surface.
Yes, this and namely that we are no where close to being a post-racial society.

Originally Posted by 7thson (Post 2025483)
There is so much hypocrisy in congress right now and it spills over into the general public and into our homes and businesses. Extreme and absolute terms are tossed around leaving no gray area to work within, which most of us know is where most of our lives exist. The horseshoe theory is interesting on the surface but it doesn't go far to explaining or resolving many of the current details our country is facing.

For example watching the hearings today reinforced my belief that many of our convictions are being feed to us. What was once an outrage is now embraces and visa versa, it all depends on who says it and how it is said more than what the topic is about. Both sides are guilty so not throwing stones here, but what is frustrating is how debate, healthy debate is almost impossible to be had. I consider myself a moderate conservative or at least I used to, not I am not sure how to label myself because moderates to some are now extreme and extremists are now Nazis. I get called racist if I support a view that Trump supports. I do not support a view because Trump supports it, but because I do. Just like I disagree with a hell of a lot he supports.

It is easy go on tangents and I do not want to delve off on things , that is not my goal here, I just love healthy constructive debate with open-minded participants who are capable of compromise and not many places offer that outlet . Good post.
Just playing devil's advocate here, but you are a white male (at least I think so?) so it's impossible to not be racist. That's an entirely different rabbit hole I'm not ready to fall down but what I am trying to get at is there are ideas/views/policies that, no matter who presents them, are racist. For instance, white people have a vested interest in certain economic policies that create favorably conditions for themselves and, by extension, are racist. Now I don't mean to say that you are racist but rather that it's not entirely left field to consider that you may support views that are racist in and of themselves. And whilst you have no intention of advancing racism your support of certain systems of power give the appearance that you do.

Yoda 07-24-19 04:29 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Sounds like a classic "define your terms" situation, then. Because I'll bet Dionne is using "racist" to mean "harboring prejudicable views towards another race" or something, whereas the definition you're apparently advancing includes supporting views that you feel disproportionately harm (or benefit) one race over another. These are very different ideas, and it feels like a lot of people are "borrowing" the potency of that first definition to give their application of the second more rhetorical heft.

Personally, I don't think it helps anything to expand and dilute terms to include more and more things, especially very serious terms. As a general rule, the broader a word's definition, the less significant its application is. So if people want to expand "racist" to include more things, including things that don't necessarily indicate any malice or bigotry, I guess they can, but they should also realize that the term "racist" will inevitably carry less weight than it used to.

Yoda 07-24-19 04:30 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I'd also object to the idea that being a "white male" means you must be racist. I can sorta get behind the "everybody's at least a little racist" school of thought, simply because having an innate distrust (or even an innate flinch) towards people or things different from you is probably pretty inherent in just being a human, but I can't imagine there's any serious argument that this applies just to some groups, and others are just magically immune to it.

ashdoc 07-24-19 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025229)
I honestly cannot distinguish the right from the left or the left from the right these days. Which got me thinking: will we be able to recognize the warning signs before authoritarianism takes over?

History shows us that it can arise from the ultra-progressive left just as easily as it can arise from the ultra-conservative right. Extremes bring about extremism.

What do you think? Are developed countries in danger?

NOTE: Not looking to start a flame war or anything. :sick::cool: I just think we can all agree that the divisiveness in the world (namely the UK and USA) is dangerous, yes?
The left has total control over media and arts and culture and simply suppresses any news that would run counter to their views . So it is a kind of authoritarianism .

John McClane 07-24-19 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2025529)
Sounds like a classic "define your terms" situation, then. Because I'll bet Dionne is using "racist" to mean "harboring prejudicable views towards another race" or something, whereas the definition you're apparently advancing includes supporting views that you feel disproportionately harm (or benefit) one race over another. These are very different ideas, and it feels like a lot of people are "borrowing" the potency of that first definition to give their application of the second more rhetorical heft.

Personally, I don't think it helps anything to expand and dilute terms to include more and more things, especially very serious terms. As a general rule, the broader a word's definition, the less significant its application is. So if people want to expand "racist" to include more things, including things that don't necessarily indicate any malice or bigotry, I guess they can, but they should also realize that the term "racist" will inevitably carry less weight than it used to.
Well, there's only one definition for racist, so I don't think defining one's terms is the problem here. Rather that we, as an enlightened and educated society, are more adept at recognizing that systems of power we support are extensions of ourselves. So it's not so much that the term has been expanded but that what we once found as innocuous ideas are now easily recognizable as racist.

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2025531)
I'd also object to the idea that being a "white male" means you must be racist. I can sorta get behind the "everybody's at least a little racist" school of thought, simply because having an innate distrust (or even an innate flinch) towards people or things different from you is probably pretty inherent in just being a human, but I can't imagine there's any serious argument that this applies just to some groups, and others are just magically immune to it.
I would only ask have you ever had to contend with your race being a factor that has limited you? Or has your race been brought up in conversation as a way to compliment your normalcy? You and I just cannot speak to these things because we are white. Our systems of power favor our whiteness, and thus we have free access to said power. It's precisely why you can't have "reverse racism" because racism is a matter of an imbalance of power. And since we come from a place where the power resides we cannot not be racist.

But like I said, I don't really want to get into that because it's a whole different can of worms.

Yoda 07-24-19 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025536)
Well, there's only one definition for racist
:confused:

There are only a couple of things you could mean by this, and neither really makes sense to me. Dictionary.com has one entry for "racism," but it's "the doctrine that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others," so it doesn't jibe with the meaning you advanced. And if you want to say your version is simply more commonly used (I'm fairly certain it isn't, but we'll say it is for the sake of argument), then invoking usage at all means acknowledging the possibility of it being used differently, in which case "define your terms" is clearly applicable.

And really, how the person you're talking to is using the word should matter to you if you simply care about communicating with them at all, even if you think they're using a word wrongly (which they don't appear to be).

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025536)
Rather that we, as an enlightened and educated society, are more adept at recognizing that systems of power we support are extensions of ourselves. So it's not so much that the term has been expanded but that what we once found as innocuous ideas are now easily recognizable as racist.
See above, and my previous post for that matter, where I specifically mention "malice" and "prejudice." I did this specifically to preempt this kind of response.

I'm aware of the arguments here: the position is that power structures can have systemic racial bias, and obviously societies are in some way (directly or indirectly) responsible for those structures. That's not the issue. The issue is whether the word "racist" should be applied to indirect expressions like this. Saying it shouldn't in no way implies that we should not be "recognizing" the implications or effects of our systems.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025536)
I would only ask have you ever had to contend with your race being a factor that has limited you?
I reject the implied relevance of the question, but I'll answer it anyway: yeah, mostly because I've lived in overwhelmingly minority neighborhoods most of my life (and live in one right now). And just as I don't think it would matter if my answer was no, I don't expect any extra deference just because the answer is yes.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025536)
Or has your race been brought up in conversation as a way to compliment your normalcy?
Not that I can recall, no.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025536)
You and I just cannot speak to these things because we are white.
Which things? None of the things I'm trying to speak to require me to know what it's like to be a minority, something which I obviously cannot know and can never fully appreciate or relate to.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025536)
Our systems of power favor our whiteness, and thus we have free access to said power. It's precisely why you can't have "reverse racism" because racism is a matter of an imbalance of power. And since we come from a place where the power resides we cannot not be racist.
I think making power an inherent part of racism, rather than just a potential component of it, is totally untenable, since it creates a situation where a minority can literally say "I hate everyone who isn't of my race" and it would still not make them "racist." Which is obviously absurd.

Anyway, none of this is really about what the term "racist" means or how it ought to be used. You're simply arguing that these other things should be factored in cultural/political debates about race, which is certainly true, but orthogonal to the application of the term itself. You can (and should!) believe most of the things above even if you were to adopt a different usage of the term.

John McClane 07-24-19 05:18 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2025543)
I reject the implied relevance of the question, but I'll answer it anyway: yeah, mostly because I've lived in overwhelmingly minority neighborhoods most of my life (and live in one right now). And just as I don't think it would matter if my answer was no, I don't expect any extra deference just because the answer is yes.
So if the cops got called to your house you honestly think you'd have the same kind of experience/interaction as your neighbors? If ICE canvased your neighborhood do you seriously think you'd have the same experience as your neighbors? Because I honestly fail to see how living in an overwhelmingly minority neighborhood has limited you. I mean, you're free to give examples of how your whiteness has limited you, but I don't suggest it because it's more than likely just going to be perceived limitations rather than actual limitations.

I'm poor and white, but it is a vastly different experience than being poor and black.

Now let's shake hands and put the worms back in the can and get back on topic. :)

Yoda 07-24-19 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025545)
So if the cops got called to your house you honestly think you'd have the same kind of experience/interaction as your neighbors?
Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025545)
If ICE canvased your neighborhood do you seriously think you'd have the same experience as your neighbors?
Nope. But this isn't what I was asked.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025545)
Because I honestly fail to see how living in an overwhelmingly minority neighborhood has limited you. I mean, you're free to give examples of how your whiteness has limited you, but I don't suggest it because it's more than likely just going to be perceived limitations rather than actual limitations.
I mean, I was going to answer, but then I got to the part where you basically just told me you weren't going to believe me or care and it became obvious this whole thing was just rhetorical. Seems like the questions are meant to undercut the legitimacy of any argument I make, before I make it, based on how much I've been victimized.

So instead I'll just go back to questioning the relevancy to the question, since I could agree or disagree with literally everything you're saying in this post and it would have no bearing on what should or shouldn't be described as "racist."

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025545)
I'm poor and white, but it is a vastly different experience than being poor and black.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025545)
Now let's shake hands and put the worms back in the can and get back on topic. :)
:up:

John McClane 07-24-19 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2025548)
I mean, I was going to answer, but then I got to the part where you basically just told me you weren't going to believe me or care and it became obvious this whole thing was just rhetorical. Seems like the questions are meant to undercut the legitimacy of any argument I make, before I make it, based on how much I've been victimized.
Well yeah, because I asked you a simple question and you answered it by saying you live in a neighborhood that's not white. I hate to say it, but that's precisely the thing that would be said by someone who has not had to contend with their race being a limitation.

And I think you're reading too much malice into my responses here, which is why I have chosen to not respond. There's no bad blood here.

ashdoc 07-24-19 05:35 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Yoda you live in a minority neighborhood ? Which city you live in--i thought Seattle?

ashdoc 07-24-19 05:41 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I'm poor and white, but it is a vastly different experience than being poor and black
So all this political correctness is only at superficial level ? Inside society is still rotten---racist towards blacks is it ?

Yoda 07-24-19 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025550)
Well yeah, because I asked you a simple question and you answered it by saying you live in a neighborhood that's not white.
The simple question was this:
I would only ask have you ever had to contend with your race being a factor that has limited you?
You asked if this has "ever" happened. I took the question at face value. If you'd asked me if my race had limited me overall, or if I thought being white had made my life harder than it would've been if I were another race, I would have said "no."

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025550)
And I think you're reading too much malice into my responses here, which is why I have chosen to not respond. There's no bad blood here.
It's cool, I don't think it's malicious. But I do think there's a reflexive thing in these kinds of debates, where people try to establish some kind of Right To Argue hierarchy to undercut what someone is saying, implying that their background or identity may be reason enough to simply dismiss what they're saying without engaging with it. Possibly without even realizing they're doing it. It just seems to be SOP.

As a general rule, I'm pretty suspicious of any question that creates the potential for someone to reject an argument by going around it, or suggesting that it doesn't "count" for some reason, as opposed to just addressing it.

Yoda 07-24-19 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by ashdoc (Post 2025551)
Yoda you live in a minority neighborhood ? Which city you live in--i thought Seattle?
Pittsburgh, I just visit Seattle a lot. Pittsburgh as a whole isn't mostly black (I don't think too many major cities are), but my particular neighborhood is. A few of the ones I grew up in are, too. I was occasionally called racial slurs or insulted for being white. Stupid kid stuff, mostly. Not a big deal.

John McClane 07-24-19 05:50 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Originally Posted by ashdoc (Post 2025556)
So all this political correctness is only at superficial level ? Inside society is still rotten---racist towards blacks is it ?
More like anyone that isn't white. Like it's been said by others in this thread already there's an oligarchy in this country that promotes policies and candidates that favor their power. Take a look at just about any major corporation's board of directors and you will find a predominately rich, white board. The largest sources of wealth in the world are held by whites. Whilst the economic conditions that they favor largely help/affect the wealthy it's a certain kind of wealthy that is, by and large, held predominately by white people.

I am fairly positive that I have railed on this site before about the rich white man in random arguments. And whilst it sounds like I'm mostly joking I'm really not. I'm concerned more with the rhetoric of our political parties in this thread and not interested in derailing into a discussion/debate about race/racism.

ashdoc 07-24-19 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2025558)
Pittsburgh, I just visit Seattle a lot. Pittsburgh as a whole isn't mostly black (I don't think too many major cities are), but my particular neighborhood is. A few of the ones I grew up in are, too. I was occasionally called racial slurs or insulted for being white. Stupid kid stuff, mostly. Not a big deal.
I too grew up in a Muslim neighborhood but was never subjected to taunts over religion . I guess race is more divisive than religion.

ashdoc 07-24-19 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025559)
More like anyone that isn't white. Like it's been said by others in this thread already there's an oligarchy in this country that promotes policies and candidates that favor their power. Take a look at just about any major corporation's board of directors and you will find a predominately rich, white board. The largest sources of wealth in the world are held by whites. Whilst the economic conditions that they favor largely help/affect the wealthy it's a certain kind of wealthy that is, by and large, held predominately by white people.

I am fairly positive that I have railed on this site before about the rich white man in random arguments. And whilst it sounds like I'm mostly joking. I'm really not. I'm concerned more with the rhetoric of our political parties in this thread and not interested in derailing into a discussion/debate about race/racism.
I think that is because we are living in a period of history which is still recovering from white rule over the world . I am sure that in the 14th century when the world was recovering from the effects of gengis Khan and mongol rule over Eurasia many people must have been similarly ranting against mongols .

Nostromo87 07-24-19 06:29 PM

The U.S. founding documents are built on enlightened European foundations. Why the anguish for alternative cultures to carjack America? Other nations can build their own civilization too.

Citizen Rules 07-24-19 07:02 PM

My philosophy is this: when some white people keep telling black people they have it worse and can't get ahead in America, that white person isn't helping, but is actually adding to the already increasing racial tensions. Telling a young person they're screwed and can't get ahead is counterproductive. People give up hope when they're constantly told there's no hope for them.

With affirmative action & black college scholarships and anti discrimination laws, a young black person has an equal or even better chance at succeeding today than a white person, if both come from the same economic background and have similar supportive families. Now of course a rich white kid will have a better chance over a poor black kid as they both enter adulthood. But a black child from an affluent family will have a better chance at succeeding than a white child from a poor white family.

The more we stir the racial pot, the more volatile the situation becomes. Don't be that person telling young black people they don't have a future, that's wrong to do to someone.

MovieGal 07-24-19 08:08 PM

My mother always said, "If you cut two people open, everything is in the same place. Color of someone's skin means nothing. You should never treat someone different based on race, gender, creed or sexual orientation. You treat them as you want to be treated."

John McClane 07-24-19 08:54 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
We keep sliding down that racial mountain. Let’s keep on point: those unAmerican bastards keep trying to steal my crackerjacks. We want that prize at the bottom. They hate crackerjacks! Why do they even want them?

MovieGal 07-24-19 09:09 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025586)
We keep sliding down that racial mountain. Letís keep on point: those unAmerican bastards keep trying to steal my crackerjacks. We want that prize at the bottom. They hate crackerjacks! Why do they even want them?
All about American greed baby, its greed!!!!

Yoda 07-24-19 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Nostromo87 (Post 2025570)
The U.S. founding documents are built on enlightened European foundations. Why the anguish for alternative cultures to carjack America? Other nations can build their own civilization too.
Well, the key word in the phrase "enlightened European foundations" is the first one, not the second. A person with Latin heritage who believes in liberty is embodying American culture more than someone with European heritage who doesn't.

Case in point: look at the political landscape in most of Europe. Large, expansive government left and right (if you'll forgive the pun). Lotta good that European cultural foundation did them.

Nostromo87 07-24-19 09:48 PM

Emphasis on improved/enlightened government, true. I do sincerely wish my country more reflected European culture as far as culturally traditional city-building, instead of gas stations, malls, chain restaurants, and the modern cities dominating the skylines.

Citizen Rules 07-24-19 09:56 PM

Originally Posted by MovieGal (Post 2025584)
My mother always said, "If you cut two people open, everything is in the same place. Color of someone's skin means nothing. You should never treat someone different based on race, gender, creed or sexual orientation. You treat them as you want to be treated."
MovieGal for President:yup: I like what your mother said, I believe it too.

I wonder if any of the Presidential candidates gave that as an answer when asked what their views on race was...what would happen?

MovieGal 07-24-19 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2025599)
MovieGal for President:yup: I like what your mother said, I believe it too.

I wonder if any of the Presidential candidates gave that as an answer when asked what their views on race was...what would happen?
You dont want me for President.. it would be a total dictatorship... :D

Citizen Rules 07-24-19 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by MovieGal (Post 2025600)
You dont want me for President.. it would be a total dictatorship... :D
How about a joint presidency? We can be dictators together:cool: The first thing I'm doing is declaring pizza a national monument.:p Then eliminating government waste and spending that money on saving and restoring old movies!

7thson 07-24-19 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by MovieGal (Post 2025600)
You dont want me for President.. it would be a total dictatorship... :D
And sadistic too, cutting people open and all ;).

MovieGal 07-24-19 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by 7thson (Post 2025605)
And sadistic too, cutting people open and all ;).
Gotta love it!!!!

MovieGal 07-24-19 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by 7thson (Post 2025605)
And sadistic too, cutting people open and all ;).
Wait.. 7thSon you been reading my blog??

its not quite finished

http://lapoetisaoscura.weebly.com/sh...ror-story.html

7thson 07-24-19 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by MovieGal (Post 2025608)
Wait.. 7thSon you been reading my blog??

its not quite finished

http://lapoetisaoscura.weebly.com/sh...ror-story.html
LOL< umm no, but I sense a fellow enthusiast. However I shall now put it on my to read list.:)

MovieGal 07-24-19 10:55 PM

Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2025604)
How about a joint presidency? We can be dictators together:cool: The first thing I'm doing is declaring pizza a national monument.:p Then eliminating government waste and spending that money on saving and restoring old movies!
CR, Im up for another B Movie HOF or 80s HOF anytime you are... we could even do a Cult Classic one..

No one better steal my idea!

Captain Steel 07-24-19 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by Sir Toose (Post 2025389)
Have you seen those deepfake things? Basically A.I. face mapping that learns from video footage. Here's an example if you haven't seen it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG_NZpkttXE

From now on, anyone can say anything on video footage. We won't know the truth or where to begin to look for it very soon from now.
Here's another where Bill Hader keeps morphing into and out of Arnold Schwarzenegger = freaky!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPhUhypV27w

John McClane 07-24-19 11:21 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I don’t know about y’all but I think a joint would make a terrible president. They’d be high all the time
@Citizen Rules @MovieGal

Captain Steel 07-24-19 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by ynwtf (Post 2025395)
Iderno. Post 9/11 felt pretty intense, if I remember correctly. Freedom fries replaced 'french' fries in government cafeterias and the statement, "You're either with us or against us" drew a few headlines for a divide that seeped into the everyman. Hannity was pretty great at making Colmes look like a weak and sniveling stereotype without much effort. Granted social media didn't really exist the way it does today, but cable news did. As well as talk radio. I think it has gotten worse across the board but that's not to say 2001 was without its partisan hackery, planting the seeds for new, for-profit entities to take root and follow the model.
The "freedom fries" thing was just silly. Impugning the entire nation (and food we apply their name to) over a point of political opposition is as silly as any other gross generalization.

France has been our ally in both world wars and various skirmishes since the beginning. They were pivotal in helping the U.S. win its revolution. They've always been our ally and always will be as long as the two nations stand.

Just for clarity: George W. Bush's quote after the 9/11 attacks in an address to Congress was, "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."
A lot of people misquoted or reinterpreted this as the much simpler "You're either with us or against us" phrase.

Citizen Rules 07-24-19 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2025623)
I donít know about yíall but I think a joint would make a terrible president. Theyíd be high all the time
@Citizen Rules @MovieGal
If our governor, Jay Inslee becomes president it will be free weed for everyone:p

7thson 07-25-19 12:43 AM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
So I was going to go back and quote different comments but instead I am just going to make a general statement.

I actually am mostly native american, at least that is what my DNA test tells me. Choctaw and some Munsee according to my research. between the two I am 68%. The rest of me is Scottish and a mix of stuff. However I have facial hair and a French name so go figure. My wife and son are Jewish and I am myself a very laid back christian raised as Baptist. I cannot say that I personally have ever had any personal issues with my race growing up with a couple exceptions living in Chicago. See I did not know I was mostly Native American, I mean I knew there was some in the family but the topic never really came up. Being older and looking at my great grandparents photos that I do have it is obvious. So I was raised pretty much white for all intents and purposes because perception, while not the truth, it certainty comes across as such to most.


Speaking to the John's "devil's advocacy" statement:
To say it is impossible not to be racist because one is white definitely depends on one's perception of the word. I see that this has been debated a little and my take is that it is not impossible, but [probably quite rare.) - Again taking the definition into consideration. Have I ever said or thought racist things? Yes I have, but one has to take things into context. Ever play Cards Against Humanity? We love the game and I play usually after our poker game with those that want to stay and have fun, and most of the players are not white and they love the game too. There are other instances that come up, and I am not innocent by any means, but never have I thought I was better than anyone or thought that racism does not exist. I know you are not saying these things, I am just sharing thoughts. I grew up pretty poor, but my parents always provided one way or another, that is a blessing and I am very grateful and lucky for it. Things got better financially in my teenage years as my father grew in his career. He worked very hard to get where he did when he retired, I cannot think of a single time his "whiteness" helped, of course he did look more "Indian" than I do so maybe that's why it took so long for him to get earn what he was worth - I have no idea, he never mentioned it.



With my wife being Jewish I have seen firsthand the hurdles and unfair/racist remarks and situations she is put in which directly effects our home, which does include me, white looking and all. Her last job was one prime example and without going into details (that is her story to tell not mine) she eventually quit which strangely enough put us in the position to be able to take the long vacation we are on right now.

Not really trying to detract from the original context of the thread, but I thought a little background may help.
I am certainly not looking for pity or a pass on anything I say, but more of an understanding of me, the screwed up Native American white hetero, male- Cis if you want, that term doesn't bother me, I have also seen the horrible things people say and do to transgender and alt lifestyle friends and family and it usually falls under one of two things, or both. Hate and ignorance. But to say someone is inherently racist based on their race would mean we all are, minority or not and I do not believe that. Anyway that is my take on that topic, I am always open to friendly albeit heated debate be it online or in person. I might not have the vocabulary that many do, but I do have experience.

___
Someone, Yoda I think it was you, (paraphrasing here) mentioned how many things are surfacing more because of certain catalysts bringing them forward and that they were already inherently there. Sorry if I am misinterpreting your statement, please correct me if I am wrong.

I can agree with this to a point. I think there has been a wet blanket over much of what we are seeing currently and in our recent past, but I also think those catalysts can and do birth new ideas and biases and mistrust, etc...

I really liked the horseshoe theory, I had actually only heard f it once before and never really thought about it until now. I think it is interesting and makes a point that I have been trying to make for years. That we are all more similar than we think, unfortunately we never tend to grasp to that ideology, instead we focus on differences and labels and prestige and how others perceive us, etc...

Throw it under whatever category you want:
Race
Sex
Age
Gender
Sexuality
Religion
Mental Illness/handicapped
Financial Status
Eye color
hair style
on and on - it all is the same in the end. Hate and ignorance, and I do not use ignorance solely in the "demeaning" way. For example I am ignorant about brain surgery, but does anyone hate me for that? However if I do not know that something I say is racist (I am being honest here and maybe it is a bad example but hey its what I got) does that make me a racist? No it does not - it may make me ignorant or seem racially insensitive, but it does not make me a racist. Same goes for may other things, but since race was brought forth it is a good example.


So I have been trying to post this for hours now, keep getting distracted by dogs, kids, family, etc... I mean that in a good way, I would rather be doing nothing else then hanging with family. I only say this because I glanced and see a lot has already been said on the subject and I am now johnny come lately, but hell going to post it anyway.

More to say on other things, so don't count me out of the conversation yet :).

and I will move on from the focus on race, but I was not one to bring that can to the party ;).

ynwtf 07-25-19 12:49 AM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Originally Posted by Captain Steel (Post 2025624)
Originally Posted by ynwtf (Post 2025395)
Iderno. Post 9/11 felt pretty intense, if I remember correctly. Freedom fries replaced 'french' fries in government cafeterias and the statement, "You're either with us or against us" drew a few headlines for a divide that seeped into the everyman. Hannity was pretty great at making Colmes look like a weak and sniveling stereotype without much effort. Granted social media didn't really exist the way it does today, but cable news did. As well as talk radio. I think it has gotten worse across the board but that's not to say 2001 was without its partisan hackery, planting the seeds for new, for-profit entities to take root and follow the model.
The "freedom fries" thing was just silly. Impugning the entire nation (and food we apply their name to) over a point of political opposition is as silly as any other gross generalization.

France has been our ally in both world wars and various skirmishes since the beginning. They were pivotal in helping the U.S. win its revolution. They've always been our ally and always will be as long as the two nations stand.

Just for clarity: George W. Bush's quote after the 9/11 attacks in an address to Congress was, "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."
A lot of people misquoted or reinterpreted this as the much simpler "You're either with us or against us" phrase.

I was generalizing more about how that phrase (more the sentiment?) trickled down to citizen vs citizen. Like a catch-all line to throw at anyone who disagrees. Now it's just a given if someone disagrees they're anti whatever. Or so it seems.

Totally agree with you btw. And thanks for clarifying and correcting the quote.

WrinkledMind 07-25-19 04:13 AM

Just putting this out there. Brown people can be incredibly racist towards blacks and whites. As as Indian I can vouch for that. As someone who has spent some time in China and Middle East, I can also add that I have witnessed people from those regions being racists towards others.

I personally deem racism as an act of deeming one's own race to be superior than others.

We also need to be careful with how we use certain terms. The power these terms hold is important. By using them casually we are actively weakening them.

As for the topic. Any 'ism' when unchecked or unregulated leads to authoritarian rules.

We are going through a phase of intense tribalism. History has seen such behaviours in the past. Unfortunately, it all leads to an event of massive destruction, after which we will be back to a moderate and a relatively peaceful society.

cricket 07-25-19 08:20 AM

I think when people say things like "all white people are racist", they are probably racist themselves by their own definition, which is a definition I completely disagree with.

cricket 08-02-19 08:32 AM

A couple of annoying things from the debates.

One was simpleton Kirsten Gillibrand pandering to the simpletons by saying, ďI can talk to those white women in the suburbs that voted for Trump and explain to them what white privilege actually is. When their son is walking down the street with a bag of M&Ms in his pocket, wearing a hoodie, his whiteness is what protects himĒ from being shot. When their child has a car that breaks down and he knocks on someoneís door for help and the door opens and the help is given, itís his whiteness that protects him from being shot.Ē

So let me get this straight. Is she saying someone should be shot in these situations? If she's not, and they shouldn't, then that's not any kind of privilege. That's just the way it should be. The black community certainly has many problems not only with how they're looked at, but from within. If you want to call them underprivileged, I don't think it's a big deal. Singling out people with white skin as people who somehow get unfair special treatment is just wrong. Losers will stay losers.

Race baiting Don Lemon should not be a part of these debates. He puts his twisted opinion in way too much. I see CNN occasionally when my wife has it on. It's incredible how they continue to lie by saying Trump said things like Mexicans are rapists, or that he called black players who kneeled for the national anthem sons of bitches. My favorite is probably their claim that "there were good people on both sides" was somehow racist when there was absolutely nothing racist about it and he was right on target. Then they claim that Trump has divided the country when in fact it is the far left liberals who are dividing it. If you want to say the president can be insensitive, I don't think anyone can argue that, and he certainly doesn't discriminate. If you want to make up lies and then call the people who voted for him racists, then yes you are the people who are dividing the country.

Yoda 08-02-19 10:59 AM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
It was kinda lame how candidates ducked questions by saying "those are right-wing talking points." I mean, you're literally running to decide who's going to have to rebut "right-wing talking points" for six months, so maybe you should entertain a few of those questions now.

Also, of course, sometimes they weren't right-wing talking points so much as basic mathematics.

cricket 08-02-19 11:06 AM

And I think the supposed leaders in the polls are some of the worst. Biden seems like a good guy but I think he's too meek to lead the country. Bernie seems like a loon and Warren is a flake. Harris is the worst of them all for a variety of reasons. The only 4 that show me anything are Tulsi, who I thought was terrible in the first debate, Ryan, Castro, and Yang. That's only counting how they come off to me. I really don't know enough about them.

John McClane 08-02-19 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2025668)
I think when people say things like "all white people are racist", they are probably racist themselves by their own definition, which is a definition I completely disagree with.
I know, right? Hearing the truth is the worst. :yup:

Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2027297)
A couple of annoying things from the debates.

One was simpleton Kirsten Gillibrand pandering to the simpletons by saying, ďI can talk to those white women in the suburbs that voted for Trump and explain to them what white privilege actually is. When their son is walking down the street with a bag of M&Ms in his pocket, wearing a hoodie, his whiteness is what protects himĒ from being shot. When their child has a car that breaks down and he knocks on someoneís door for help and the door opens and the help is given, itís his whiteness that protects him from being shot.Ē

So let me get this straight. Is she saying someone should be shot in these situations? If she's not, and they shouldn't, then that's not any kind of privilege. That's just the way it should be. The black community certainly has many problems not only with how they're looked at, but from within. If you want to call them underprivileged, I don't think it's a big deal. Singling out people with white skin as people who somehow get unfair special treatment is just wrong. Losers will stay losers
Yeah, it can't be that white people actually do get special treatment.

Race baiting Don Lemon should not be a part of these debates. He puts his twisted opinion in way too much. I see CNN occasionally when my wife has it on. It's incredible how they continue to lie by saying Trump said things like Mexicans are rapists, or that he called black players who kneeled for the national anthem sons of bitches. My favorite is probably their claim that "there were good people on both sides" was somehow racist when there was absolutely nothing racist about it and he was right on target. Then they claim that Trump has divided the country when in fact it is the far left liberals who are dividing it. If you want to say the president can be insensitive, I don't think anyone can argue that, and he certainly doesn't discriminate. If you want to make up lies and then call the people who voted for him racists, then yes you are the people who are dividing the country.
You're right. In fact, I hear good people can commit murder, too.

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2027332)
It was kinda lame how candidates ducked questions by saying "those are right-wing talking points." I mean, you're literally running to decide who's going to have to rebut "right-wing talking points" for six months, so maybe you should entertain a few of those questions now.

Also, of course, sometimes they weren't right-wing talking points so much as basic mathematics.
I only saw the first half of the first debate, but from what I saw those types of comments were in reference to healthcare and how the majority of the field is bashing the ACA. Bullock was on point, though. Get prescription drug prices down. Get surprise billing under control. Don't repeal a bill that has had a largely positive effect on millions of Americans.

John McClane 08-02-19 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2027339)
And I think the supposed leaders in the polls are some of the worst. Biden seems like a good guy but I think he's too meek to lead the country. Bernie seems like a loon and Warren is a flake. Harris is the worst of them all for a variety of reasons. The only 4 that show me anything are Tulsi, who I thought was terrible in the first debate, Ryan, Castro, and Yang. That's only counting how they come off to me. I really don't know enough about them.
Biden has too much baggage. He would never stand up to a bashing from Trump. Bernie yells too much, and Warren is a panderer.

Bullock 2020

cricket 08-02-19 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027353)
I know, right? Hearing the truth is the worst. :yup:
Maybe you should run for president since you are qualified to speak for so many. You'd probably be just as good a candidate as any of them.

Yeah, it can't be that white people actually do get special treatment.
Saying it doesn't make it true. You have to show me where it happens. Her example which I was referencing certainly wasn't one of those cases.

You're right. In fact, I hear good people can commit murder, too.
You can't dispute what I said. How important is the truth to you?

cricket 08-02-19 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027354)
Bullock 2020
I don't have anything negative to say about him. It's just that he has only so much time and he needs to make a splash. He hasn't been able to do that yet.

Yoda 08-02-19 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027353)
I know, right? Hearing the truth is the worst. :yup:
If you wanna revive the "all white people are racist" discussion from earlier in the thread we can pick up from there. Probably makes more sense than just repeating assertions, though.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027353)
I only saw the first half of the first debate, but from what I saw those types of comments were in reference to healthcare and how the majority of the field is bashing the ACA.
Exactly; that's why the framing is fair. If Republicans already bash the ACA, and Democrats decide to start doing the same, naturally even a neutral follow-up question based on that premise is going to overlap with that the right is saying.

Anyway, they got lazy and started using that line to sidestep any difficult question, to my mind. But primaries are always silly like this.

John McClane 08-02-19 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2027358)
Saying it doesn't make it true. You have to show me where it happens. Her example which I was referencing certainly wasn't one of those cases.
Officer involved shootings for whites are lower, sentencing for whites is more lenient, anti-recidivist and jail diversion programs are more plentiful for whites, and parole boards are more favorable with whites. Iíd love to dig up all the facts for you but I know that would really put a damper on your deniability. Plus Iím at work.



You can't dispute what I said. How important is the truth to you?
I dunno. I kinda lost you when you stood up for a chain of events that ended with a good person murdering another good person. Truth is relative these days, I suppose.

John McClane 08-02-19 12:14 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
@Yoda: I was not the one that started the race discussion again. Just figured if we were all going to post whatever we want that I’d throw my hat in the ring.

Yoda 08-02-19 12:19 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Sort of? The first bit you quoted from cricket was posted last week, for example.

Anyway, I don't really care who revived what, for the most part. I just think it's incumbent on everyone to advance the discussion if they're going to continue it. And obviously if someone had argued that a term isn't being used properly, continuing to use the term without addressing that isn't great.

John McClane 08-02-19 12:36 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Precisely why Iím not going to get into long winded debates about it in here, but I am also not going to let it go unchecked either.

But what do I know? A lot of useless stuff is what.

cricket 08-02-19 12:38 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027364)
Officer involved shootings for whites are lower, sentencing for whites is more lenient, anti-recidivist and jail diversion programs are more plentiful for whites, and parole boards are more favorable with whites. Iíd love to dig up all the facts for you but I know that would really put a damper on your deniability. Plus Iím at work.


Not that you're even correct, but things like this would have something to do with the fact that a black man is more likely to commit violent crime or have a police record. In other words, there's more at play than skin color.

I dunno. I kinda lost you when you stood up for a chain of events that ended with a good person murdering another good person. Truth is relative these days, I suppose.
ďExcuse me, they didnít put themselves down as neo-Nazis, and you had some very bad people in that group. But you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group Ė excuse me, excuse me, I saw the same pictures you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.Ē

ďIím not talking about the neo-Nazis and white nationalists because they should be condemned totally.Ē

ďRacism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans.Ē

The idea that the one side was made up of only racist groups or that he was talking about racist groups is a flat out lie.

cricket 08-02-19 12:40 PM

There were good and bad on both sides. That's nothing controversial or something to argue about.

John McClane 08-02-19 12:41 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Thank you for proving my point. :yup:

Yoda 08-02-19 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027370)
Precisely why Iím not going to get into long winded debates about it in here, but I am also not going to let it go unchecked either.
I don't think it has to be long-winded (for my part, I'll try to make sure it isn't). I think these goals are somewhat mutually exclusive, though. The cost of calling a bunch of stuff out is the occasional reasonable follow-up. Or so I keep insisting to several different people on this site, over the years, to no avail.

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027370)
But what do I know? A lot of useless stuff is what.
We have this in common.

John McClane 08-02-19 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Yoda (Post 2027375)
The cost of calling a bunch of stuff out is the occasional reasonable follow-up. Or so I keep insisting to several different people on this site, over the years, to no avail.
Hello?! This is the internet. Ainít nobody got time for that nonsense. Just throw the **** against the wall and see what sticks.

cricket 08-02-19 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027373)
Thank you for proving my point. :yup:
Really? Why bother responding at all then?

John McClane 08-02-19 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2027381)
Really? Why bother responding at all then?
It is the polite thing to do, of course.

Yoda 08-02-19 12:55 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I think not responding is probably more polite than responding without advancing the discussion, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, I agree with you re: the Internet in general. Desperately trying to make this one of the places that's better than that, though.

John McClane 08-02-19 12:59 PM

I didnít need to advance it with my response when @cricket advanced it AND proved my point all at the same time. I suppose I could have just emojied my approval.

:up: :yup:

cricket 08-02-19 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027382)
It is the polite thing to do, of course.
Well you know I think highly of you either way. I just think false narratives are counterproductive for any side and in this case having the opposite of the desired effect for the left. Racism is no joke and it shouldn't be used as a weapon. It's crossing the line as far as I'm concerned and I don't mean your opinions on here.

cricket 08-02-19 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027384)
I didnít need to advance it with my response when @cricket advanced it AND proved my point all at the same time. I suppose I could have just emojied my approval.

:up: :yup:
I certainly didn't prove one of your points so I can only assume you are busting my balls, which is fine.

John McClane 08-02-19 01:06 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Well, I got some bad news for white people then: itís going to get worse.

And yes, racism is definitely no joke. Thatís why more white people need to wake up to it.

John McClane 08-02-19 01:08 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2027387)
I certainly didn't prove one of your points so I can only assume you are busting my balls, which is fine.
You posted a random image of officer involved shootings and didn’t parse the data, and you posted quotes from a white dude explaining to black people how other white people were not racist.

Don’t sell yourself short.

Yoda 08-02-19 01:09 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Even granting every premise, at this point it should be obvious that trying to beat white people over the head with racism, and not talking to them about it unless they just sort of submit to the accusation uncritically, is not particularly effective.

John McClane 08-02-19 01:15 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Like I said, I’m at work and can’t be trudging through data and posting links. Not that I would if I wasn’t at work. This thread isn’t about racism.

Citizen Rules 08-02-19 01:18 PM

From that chart of police shootings that Cricket posted, it looks like whites should be stomping their feet about police shootings, as white suspects are the ones being killed the most.

BTW, the majority of shootings by cops involved the suspect having a gun. It's a myth that cops routinely fire their guns, they don't, and it's an myth they target unarmed black people to shoot...it's BS.

Just because some outspoken members of the black community believe there's a cop conspiracy to kill black people, it's no more truer than the idiotic belief that the US government invited AIDS to kill off blacks. And that AIDS conspiracy is a prevalent belief among many black Americans. Just like conspiracy theories in general, humans delude themselves to create all sorts of bizarre narratives so as to justify their own negative feelings.

Law Enforcement Today
National discussion has focused on the killings by police of unarmed civilians, but fewer than one percent of the killings we found were of people who were unarmed. Some 65 percent possessed a firearm during an encounter with police. The rest were armed with other weapons, such as knives and bats, The Washington Post.

Yoda 08-02-19 01:19 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
I guess that goes back to which is more polite: replying when you can't really reply just to say "that proves my point!" or waiting until you can reply in-depth to explain why it does? I'd lean towards the latter.

Nobody's gonna give anyone grief for just being busy, of course.

cricket 08-02-19 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027391)
You posted a random image of officer involved shootings and didnít parse the data
You can look these things up anywhere you see fit.

and you posted quotes from a white dude explaining to black people how other white people were not racist.
No, that's exactly what Donald Trump said to the media before his words and the whole situation got taken out of context. You can't accuse a guy of siding with white supremists while he's literally condemning them.

John McClane 08-02-19 01:21 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Iíd still post the same thing even if I had all the time in the world.

And I sleep just fine, too.

John McClane 08-02-19 01:26 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Btw, last I checked, the Confederate States of America was racist. But yeah, I suppose defending a monument to it is ok

Just more of that useless stuff I know, though.

cricket 08-02-19 01:27 PM

Does everyone know that Trump dated a black woman for 2 years? I wouldn't call it proof that he's not racist but I think it's better evidence than anything that says he is.

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2017...isable=upscale

John McClane 08-02-19 01:28 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
Psht, he’s not even holding her hand. What kind of proof is that?

cricket 08-02-19 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027399)
Btw, last I checked, the Confederate States of America was racist. But yeah, I suppose defending a monument to it is ok

Just more of that useless stuff I know, though.
You know who else defended it? Condoleezza Rice, yea, a black woman who I'd vote for as president in a second. There's many reasons to defend the statues that have nothing to do with racism.

John McClane 08-02-19 01:34 PM

Re: Three Lefts Make a Right, and Three Rights Make a Left
 
They lost. Too bad. So sad.

cricket 08-02-19 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027403)
They lost. Too bad. So sad.
I understood the argument for both sides so I didn't care. The point is that it's supposedly evidence of Trump's racism when in fact, to anyone who is fair, it's evidence to the contrary.

cricket 08-02-19 01:54 PM

Finally I get to participate in a debate when they're working and I'm not:D

John McClane 08-02-19 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2027404)
I understood the argument for both sides so I didn't care. The point is that it's supposedly evidence of Trump's racism when in fact, to anyone who is fair, it's evidence to the contrary.
I suppose that is one way you could look at it. But I'm not one for defending a lost, racist cause.

cricket 08-02-19 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by John McClane (Post 2027409)
I suppose that is one way you could look at it. But I'm not one for defending a lost, racist cause.
I just think the word is watered down and there's been no evidence that I've seen that says that is what he is. If people want to say inappropriate, insensitive, or words of that nature, I don't think there would be a big issue. Labeling with such an ugly word is also ugly, and it's offensive to a lot of people.

JoaoRodrigues 08-02-19 02:11 PM

my political gospel-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWGYfTx9fP0
and people still argue about race, fools
they don't care what color you are, who you have sex with,
only the size of your ambition on getting them more money, power and control
america successfully turned the entire world into a big shopping mall
alternative solutions? just look at granada and try your luck
but i'm starting to care less and less about that, like one poet once said,
even if we destroy this planet, we will go extinct, but the planet will eventually reconstruct itself,
it might take millions of years, but it will overcome anything we do to it in our search for conquer

John McClane 08-02-19 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by cricket (Post 2027413)
I just think the word is watered down and there's been no evidence that I've seen that says that is what he is. If people want to say inappropriate, insensitive, or words of that nature, I don't think there would be a big issue. Labeling with such an ugly word is also ugly, and it's offensive to a lot of people.
If someone wants to get bent out of shape by it this is America and they are free to do that, but it's not my fault they were born white. They gotta take that one up with their parents. I already made my peace with mine.


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