Have seen the film twice now, loved it, and have just read Marin Alsop’s comments in Variety.
https://variety.com/2023/film/global...235482490/amp/ Specifically, Alsop says that, once the film reveals Lydia’s I do realise that this is a version of the kind of discussion that has inevitably popped up/developed in other threads, but to me, the best thing about the film is that Lydia is shown as a complex character, with flaws. It is a very realistic portrayal of the environment in the world of classical music, especially the very top. Is the issue that Lydia is an
WARNING: spoilers below
female antihero survive and thrive (which is my own, likely contentious, reading of the ending, as I feel like a maestra at that level will thrive anywhere doing what she loves, whether that be the Philippines or NY).
Again, there have been some threads here touching upon this, but is it really again an example of people expecting ‘positive reinforcement’ from a ‘strong woman’ lesbian character, and nothing more? I feel like it’s just absurd and would be entirely unrealistic, as it’s widely understood that getting to the very top of any competitive field, especially ‘as a woman’ and especially a field as grounded in history and tradition (and, to an extent, religion) as western classical music, one does need to be ‘a bit of a bitch’ (one can of course disagree, but that’s my personal experience (and no, I am not at the top of my field)). Alsop adds, ‘To have an opportunity to portray a woman in that role and to make her For what that’s worth, I loved Lydia and was wholly on her side, though I’m pretty much allergic to ‘strong female’ characters. I also felt it was quite easy to be on her side (her wife manipulating her relationship with the child was revolting). |
I need to see Tarr is about all I can comment on about this.
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Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2360627)
I need to see Tarr is about all I can comment on about this.
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Originally Posted by Jackie Daytona (Post 2360630)
I recommend going into Tar expecting it to be a ghost story.
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Originally Posted by Jackie Daytona (Post 2360630)
I recommend going into Tar expecting it to be a ghost story.
Well, that's spoiled now. LOL. :) |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2360634)
Well, that's spoiled now. LOL. :)
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Spoilers!
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Also, I see it’s returning to the cinema near me this month so I may see it soon.
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Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2360636)
Spoilers!
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Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2360640)
I’ve added some more but it looks a bit ridiculous now, I can never strike the right balance with these.
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Lots of people getting offended these days. Some by a female lesbian protagonist who's actually a bad person, others by the Bach scene, and so on.
I think it was ingenious to make Lydia a woman and a lesbian and THEN make her all the things that are usually slapped onto straight men. It's a no-brainer, but being an a-hole is not unique to being a heterosexual male. So, being offended by Tar, as a woman or a lesbian, is as stupid as being offended by 90% of serial killer/rapist/thief/abuser/murderer/a-hole characters in film in the past 100 years as a straight male. The thing with Alsop might be more of a Hearst type of thing, though. There are many similarities between her and Lydia, so she might be seeing this as a sort of libel. Who knows. Anyway, the film's whole point is that Lydia is an awful person but she doesn't see herself as one. She sees herself as better than others and finds excuses for her behavior. She is still a strong woman character but she's strong in all the wrong ways. In the end, she survives but the final reveal is absolutely ridiculous. Also, as for being on Lydia's side, the film is quite ambiguous, but there are some really strong indicators that she's guilty.
WARNING: "Tar" spoilers below
When she goes to the massage parlor in the Philippines, she is shown a bunch of young women with numbers on them. One of the women looks at her in the exact same way a young orchestra player looked at her before in the film. That makes Lydia run away and puke. That's when she finally realized that she was preying on the women in the orchestra, etc., etc.
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Re: Tár (Marin Alsop‘s criticism)
It seems like this turns on the question of something closer to fact...whether it's actually true. The nature of the defense, mainly that only men can be abusive, is dubious at the very least. Ironically, Alsop was conductor of the Baltimore Symphony for some years, I saw her perform a bunch of times and her treatment by local media as well as the audience was quite positive.
I don't recall exactly why she left, but that's not surprising since tenures by conductors generally do end within 10 years or so. She didn't leave under a cloud as far as I know, nothing was reported in the media. Her orientation was well known and not controversial. Nothing about that story seems relevant to Alsop's experience here so I'd be curious as to what was going on with that story that was so pungent as to provoke those remarks. |
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2360675)
Lots of people getting offended these days. Some by a female lesbian protagonist who's actually a bad person, others by the Bach scene, and so on.
I think it was ingenious to make Lydia a woman and a lesbian and THEN make her all the things that are usually slapped onto straight men. It's a no-brainer, but being an a-hole is not unique to being a heterosexual male. So, being offended by Tar, as a woman or a lesbian, is as stupid as being offended by 90% of serial killer/rapist/thief/abuser/murderer/a-hole characters in film in the past 100 years as a straight male.
WARNING: spoilers below
Just putting this spoiler tags because it's hard to link to any news article without things turning political in this forum... But half of me (or more) wonders if Todd Field also read this article from back in 2018 and that's where the idea for this movie came from. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/n...professor.html
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2360675)
The thing with Alsop might be more of a Hearst type of thing, though. There are many similarities between her and Lydia, so she might be seeing this as a sort of libel. Who knows.
WARNING: spoilers below
If I were in her shoes, maybe I'd be really wrankled by it being described as transactional. Maybe more than anything else. But who knows.
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2360675)
Anyway, the film's whole point is that Lydia is an awful person but she doesn't see herself as one. She sees herself as better than others and finds excuses for her behavior. She is still a strong woman character but she's strong in all the wrong ways. In the end, she survives but the final reveal is absolutely ridiculous.
WARNING: spoilers below
I finally read the much-talked about Dan Kois piece on slate about the ending. https://slate.com/culture/2022/12/ta...-analyzed.html I went in feeling somewhat skeptical, but it does raise the point that a lot of deviations from normal reality start fairly on in the movie, so reading a large chunk of the later part of the movie as a purely, literal exercise in reality seems off. I'll sit on it, and maybe rewatch it again later with it in mind. Mainly because the first time through, the movie was kind of diminishing itself as it sat in my mind because of that stretch otherwise. |
Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2360675)
Also, as for being on Lydia's side, the film is quite ambiguous, but there are some really strong indicators that she's guilty.
WARNING: "Tar" spoilers below
When she goes to the massage parlor in the Philippines, she is shown a bunch of young women with numbers on them. One of the women looks at her in the exact same way a young orchestra player looked at her before in the film. That makes Lydia run away and puke. That's when she finally realized that she was preying on the women in the orchestra, etc., etc.
But yeah, though the final reveal could be a bit more elegant, I felt it was quite bold, especially in the contemporary climate. I actually didn’t see it as a ‘reveal’ until you used that word, but yes, it sure is. |
Originally Posted by Little Ash (Post 2360703)
WARNING: spoilers below
And if you look closely, you’ll see, motionless in the dark corner of Lydia’s bedroom, nearly unnoticeable at the back of the frame, a red-haired woman: Krista.
This is just mindblowing and I did not notice it originally. |
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2360745)
Thank you for linking that in! Fascinating stuff.
This is just mindblowing and I did not notice it originally.
WARNING: "tar" spoilers below
The noises can be explained by the 'ghost' story element I suppose (although I didn't see that red haired image either - spooky!) There is definitely something other worldly about the last section of the film set in Asia. The point at which she crashes the orchestra and attacks the conductor does seem very out of kilter with the rest of the film. I have to admit I didn't pick up on whether this may be all in her head - her worrying about where she could end up as a result of her behaviour, but it does make sense.
I just loved how meticulous the film is. So well researched. And I love that Lydia is not even her real name. Her brother (?) lets it slip that she is called Linda - she lives a lie. Although does any of that really happen? I love ambiguous films like this, they are so hard to get right, but when it's done well like this, it is a joy to watch. |
Originally Posted by ScarletLion (Post 2360758)
That's a great article. It is a truly brilliant film.
WARNING: "tar" spoilers below
The noises can be explained by the 'ghost' story element I suppose (although I didn't see that red haired image either - spooky!) There is definitely something other worldly about the last section of the film set in Asia. The point at which she crashes the orchestra and attacks the conductor does seem very out of kilter with the rest of the film. I have to admit I didn't pick up on whether this may be all in her head - her worrying about where she could end up as a result of her behaviour, but it does make sense.
I just loved how meticulous the film is. So well researched. And I love that Lydia is not even her real name. Her brother (?) lets it slip that she is called Linda - she lives a lie. Although does any of that really happen? I love ambiguous films like this, they are so hard to get right, but when it's done well like this, it is a joy to watch. I guess if that reading is applied, I don’t get a sense of where the film ‘ends’ as far as factual reality is concerned - is she simply Good job I’m due to see it at Picturehouse this Friday, hopefully the big screen makes these things easier to pick up on, though I suppose at this point I’ll be looking out for them. |
Originally Posted by AgrippinaX (Post 2360759)
Yup, I did notice the
I guess if that reading is applied, I don’t get a sense of where the film ‘ends’ as far as factual reality is concerned - is she simply |
Originally Posted by ScarletLion (Post 2360761)
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Re: Tár (Marin Alsop‘s criticism)
One thing's for sure - I can't remember Blanchett ever being this good. Her command of English and German and the intensity at which she delivers her performance is absolutely jaw dropping.
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