Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Do you agree or disagree with the statement (made by Steven Spielberg last night) that The Godfather is the greatest American movie ever made?
He made the statement at the ceremony where Francis Ford Coppola was given the AFI Life Achievement Award. Steven Spielberg Calls ‘The Godfather’ the ‘Greatest American Film Ever Made’ at Francis Ford Coppola AFI Life Achievement Award Ceremony https://variety.com/wp-content/uploa...ze=1920%2C1280
Hollywood legends gathered Saturday night to celebrate Francis Ford Coppola as he received the prestigious AFI Life Achievement Award, the highest honor bestowed by the American Film Institute.
Steven Spielberg and George Lucas presented Coppola with the 50th AFI Life Achievement Award. Spielberg called Coppola “fearless.” Spielberg, who first met Coppola in 1967, said, “On one hand, you are a warrior for independent artists, you always champion their causes, but also, and always, you’re fearless in how open you are to ideas, opinions and inspiration.” He recalled watching an early cut of “Apocalypse Now,” which was five hours long, with other filmmakers. “When the film ended, you asked us to tell you what we saw, how we felt. You invited all of us in, so one by one, we told you where we were lost and where we were found, and I sat there in awe, learning that leaving yourself open and searching was, in fact, your superpower.” Spielberg went on to say, “‘The Godfather,’ for me, is the greatest American film ever made. Many artists can and do take a bow from their work on a page, on a canvas, on a screen, but our applause for you Francis, is from a different kind of audience. When we’re young, it’s our parents we want to make proud, and then it’s our friends, and then it’s our colleagues, and finally, it’s our peers, but you, sir, are peerless.” Spielberg said, “You have taken what came before and redefined the canon of American film, and in so doing, you’ve inspired a generation of storytellers who want to make you proud of their work, proud of our work, and I always want to make you proud of my work.” Lucas reminisced on his lifelong bond as the “Apocalypse Now” director -the two first met when Lucas shadowed Coppola on the set of his film “Finian’s Rainbow” in 1968. Lucas called Coppola his hero. Said Lucas, “When I was 22, he taught me, don’t be afraid of jumping off cliffs. And I’ve lived with that the rest of my life, although I don’t go to the higher level that he does.” Lucas and Spielberg then presented Coppola with the AFI Life Achievement Award. Coppola was moved by the tributes that had been bestowed. In his speech, Coppola reflected on memories with friends and family. “There are the empty lots I played in, most gone with new buildings I don’t recognize. So many friends and neighbors returning my smiles, that kid who wouldn’t let me be on his team now and still throwing the ball in his club, and so many others I remember, all grow older, but still somehow the same. One young friend, as tall and strong as he used to be. No, that’s his son, the little boy he used to carry on his shoulders.” He continued, “There’s a stoop where my family used to sit on hot summer nights and drink beer, but where’s the old nickel vending machine, which dispensed the first cashew nut I ever tasted? All my uncles, my aunts, everyone’s still here, out there. Some giving me a welcome wave or blowing me a kiss. What a pull on my heart. Faces I knew and loved. Some I feared, some helpful, encouraging, and those I felt wronged me, but they had their own reasons, and I forgive them one more, because I’ve learned that the only person really impossible to forgive is yourself.” Coppola ended by saying, “Now I understand here, this place that created me, my home, isn’t really a place at all, but you, friends, colleagues, teachers, playmates, family, neighbors, all the beautiful faces are welcoming me back, because I am and will always be nothing more than one of you.” Coppola was visibly moved by tributes from Robert De Niro, Al Pacino, Adam Driver, Harrison Ford, Morgan Freeman, Dustin Hoffman, Ron Howard, C. Thomas Howell, Diane Lane, Spike Lee and Ralph Macchio. ”The Godfather” actors De Niro and Pacino took to the stage to honor Coppola. “You changed my life,” De Niro said. Pacino echoed those sentiments honoring him for his trailblazing vision. Pacino said, “Francis just fought for us long time. He fought for his film and his vision, which he always does.” Pacino thanked Coppola for “believing in me even more than I believed in myself.” Hoffman was one of the many actors who praised Coppola for his unique ability to recognize and nurture talent. Hoffman told the audience how Coppola fought for stars like Diane Keaton, Al Pacino, Talia Shire, James Caan and more. “By casting them, you have them the opportunity of a lifetime.” Hoffman, who starred in “Megalopolis” joked, “Unfortunately, you waited until I was 86.” Coppola cemented himself as one of our greatest auteurs thanks to his impressive output of films including “The Godfather” sequels, “The Conversation,” “Apocalypse Now” and “Bram Stoker’s Dracula.” Earlier in the evening, The Franklin J. Schaffner alumni medal tribute was given posthumously to David Lynch. In a video recorded before his death, Lynch said, “AFI is learning by experiencing and analyzing cinema history and learning by doing.” Lynch continued, “AFI helps you find your own unique cinema voice and AFI champions your voice ringing out. I love AFI.” The annual event took place at the Dolby Theatre in Los Angeles, where Coppola’s family, his close friends and colleagues lauded his illustrious career. A televised special of the gala, “The 50th AFI Life Achievement Award: A Tribute to Francis Ford Coppola,” will premiere on TNT with an encore airing on TCM at a later date. First awarded in 1973, other past AFI Life Achievement Award honorees include Orson Welles, Bette Davis, Alfred Hitchcock, Gene Kelly, Sidney Poitier, Steven Spielberg, Meryl Streep, Denzel Washington and more. Last year, the AFI honored Nicole Kidman. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
I wouldn't consider it the best, but I would say it is one of the best American movies.
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Originally Posted by Allaby (Post 2555739)
I wouldn't consider it the best, but I would say it is one of the best American movies.
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Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555740)
Which one would you call the best?
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Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555736)
Do you agree or disagree with the statement (made by Steven Spielberg last night) that The Godfather is the greatest American movie ever made?
He made the statement at the ceremony where Francis Ford Coppola was given the AFI Life Achievement Award. THE greatest film doesn't exist, that's the only thing I know for sure. |
Probably.... .....not.
Statistically speaking, even if there is a "greatest American film" objectively, the odds that any single one of set of American films is the greatest is statistically very small. The problem isn't just with the ontology (is there a greatest American film which happens to be this film?), but with the epistemology. Pray tell, provision us with the objective standards by which we may condescend to have penetrated into such mysteries? If there is no objective answer to the question, then we have to default to intersubjective standards which are elastic (they are stretched by new members which enter into the set of "American films" and they shrink as cultural memory of older films fade). Intersubjectively (relative to the intersubjectivity of the North American continent), the Godfather was plausibly the best American film for a period of time (lasting a few decades after it was made). Traditionally, it has scored very highly in the lists of critics (the experts who shape and reflect taste) and conversations of the public. It has always been a safe choice like "Citizen Kane." Even then, however, there has always been a debate. I don't know that there was ever an air-tight consensus in favor of this film. Moreover, as it recedes in cultural memory and shares space with new films (which steal everything they can from older films) it will be crowded to the side of the stage. Spielberg was talking someone up at a tribute and he's an old head from the time when it was plausible to put Godfather at #1. Is it even really Spielberg's #1 or was that epideictic pillow-talk? Subjectively, there is no right answer. I can't think of a meaningful metric by which we might answer this question, outside of a boast. Best I can do is make the case for "good or bad", "better or worse," "classic or clunker," relative to community standards. https://uploads.dailydot.com/2024/01...r=2:1&fit=crop |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555746)
Is it even really Spielberg's #1?
"Greatest American film ever made by FFC" might be closer to the truth. Furthermore, even if Spielberg's comment was 100% genuine, it's possible that FFC didn't believe him. There's some irony in that. |
Originally Posted by Allaby (Post 2555742)
I would rank Ben-Hur (1959) as the best. (Fun fact: Ben-hur was the first film to win 11 Academy Awards.) I would personally consider Gone with the Wind to be better than The Godfather, but that now seems to be an unpopular opinion. Schindler's List is also a greater film than The Godfather, in my opinion...
Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2555744)
...THE greatest film doesn't exist, that's the only thing I know for sure.
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555746)
...I can't think of a meaningful metric by which we might answer this question, outside of a boast...
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2015460)
https://www.movieforums.com/communit...chmentid=54612 The Godfather (1972) So what is it that people love about this movie? In a way it could be described as the ultimate soap opera. Now I know people use the phrase 'soap opera' negatively when talking about a movie, but not me. To me a film that's soap opera-ish, means that it has a lot of heart and it has a lot of complex human interrelationships, to me that's what makes a movie interesting. With a 'soap opera' movie, if it's done well, you get so much more than just an action-thriller. The Godfather takes us inside of the Corleone family and make us a part of that closely woven family for a three hour journey. We see their hopes and aspirations, we learn the meaning of loyalty and respect, and we see how interconnected relationships can break down when loyalty is lost. The first act is by far my favorite that's where we meet the Corleone family as they come together to celebrate their daughter's wedding. The Godfather is based on a rather lengthy novel and that's why the second and third acts seem condensed as the director is tying to squeeze this big story into a 3 hour movie. That's always a problem for lengthy-detailed novels being turned into a screen play. I do think highly of Francis Ford Coppola efforts here. What keeps me from loving The Godfather, is that I'm not at all interested in organized crime or movies about it. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Touch of Evil.
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Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555754)
What makes The Godfather a truly outstanding movie is that it isn’t merely interested “in organized crime”.
It’s Coppola’s commentary on American capitalism. And that commentary gets even deeper when you get to Part II.
In a way it could be described as the ultimate soap opera. Now I know people use the phrase 'soap opera' negatively when talking about a movie, but not me. To me a film that's soap opera-ish, means that it has a lot of heart and it has a lot of complex human interrelationships, to me that's what makes a movie interesting. With a 'soap opera' movie, if it's done well, you get so much more than just an action-thriller. The Godfather takes us inside of the Corleone family and make us a part of that closely woven family for a three hour journey. We see their hopes and aspirations, we learn the meaning of loyalty and respect, and we see how interconnected relationships can break down when loyalty is lost.
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Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555757)
I literally just said that it isn’t “merely an organized crime movie“, so if anything, we would be in agreement there. ;)
But the real strength of the movie is that it shows us how a tightly-knit family pushes back and somewhat overcomes the forces of capitalism. The counterpoint is then made in Part II that capitalism will ultimately destroy that family unity. Either: you misrepresented what I said deliberately, which is something you've been accused of many times on this board. Or maybe you were merely a careless reader and didn't bother to read my full review. Which one is it? |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
I'd have these as the contenders:
Mr Smith Goes to Washington 1939 The Wizard of Oz 1939 Meshes of the Afternoon 1943 Notorious 1946 Little Fugitive 1953 On the Waterfront 1954 Rear Window 1954 Touch of Evil 1958 Psycho 1960 The Sound of Music 1965 The Graduate 1967 McCabe and Mrs Miller 1971 The Godfather 1972 Taxi Driver 1976 Apocalypse Now 1979 Alien 1979 E.T. The Extra Terrestrial 1982 Saving Private Ryan 1998 Mulholland Drive 2001 Donnie Darko 2001 No Country for Old Men 2007 Frances Ha 2012 And if you count them as American: 2001 1969 Barry Lyndon 1975 |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2555751)
My thoughts on The Godfather
And even that goes back to classic stories about a King's court or the Ancient Rome shenanigans.
Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555754)
It’s Coppola’s commentary on American capitalism.
As for the downfall of the family, is it possible that being involved with organised crime has something to do with that (just speculating). The first one is watchable enough, and as Citizen said it's the opening scene that got me very excited. The second one is a beautifully made drag and I found it a challenge to finish it. |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2555762)
You misquoted me, you took my last sentence from my review where I say why I don't personally love The Godfather ignoring the bulk of my review where I talk about how the movie is much more than just crime...which then made my post look like I had said it was only a mere crime movie. Either: you misrepresented what I said deliberately, which is something you've been accused of many times on this board. Or maybe you were merely a careless reader and didn't bother to read my full review. Which one is it? |
If only I had a dime for everytime someone said 'but there is no such thing as a best movie', I bet I could melt them all down and make a giant hammer to pummel myself unconscious with. But then I'm sure these same debate scientists would come back to me with the facts that the metal alloys that compose dimes would never be able to make a hammer heavy enough to knock myself out with and so I'd just be left repeatedly pounding myself in the head with this lightweight tool of my making, while remaining fully and horribly semi-conscious. You know, the perfect visual analogy for debate on this horror show called the internet.
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Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555769)
If only I had a dime for everytime someone said 'but there is no such thing as a best movie', I bet I could melt them all down and make a giant hammer to pummel myself unconscious with. But then I'm sure these same debate scientists would come back to me with the facts that the metal alloys that compose dimes would never be able to make a hammer heavy enough to knock myself out with and so I'd just be left repeatedly pounding myself in the head with this lightweight tool of my making, while remaining fully and horribly semi-conscious. You know, the perfect visual analogy for debate on this horror show called the internet.
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
If we agree that certain movies are better than other movies (I don't think anyone could disagree with this statement; it goes without saying), then theoretically, there would HAVE to be a best movie ever made. The tiers of greatness can't go on forever.
Anyways, I imagine The Godfather would make it pretty high on a 'best films ever made' list if I ever took the time to make one, but I don't know that it would be #1. |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555769)
If only I had a dime for everytime someone said 'but there is no such thing as a best movie'
The Best Film Ever has to be the best in everything and in every genre. And that film has not been made yet.
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555769)
I bet I could melt them all down and make a giant hammer to pummel myself unconscious with.
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Originally Posted by SpelingError (Post 2555777)
If we agree that certain movies are better than other movies (I don't think anyone could disagree with this statement; it goes without saying), then theoretically, there would HAVE to be a best movie ever made. The tiers of greatness can't go on forever.
But even of the ontology of your premises were sound (i.e., let's grant that there is, in fact, a "best" movie out there, somewhere), that brings us no closer to resolving the epistemological dilemma. OK, which one is it? |
Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2555779)
It's not an opinion or just a hollow phrase, it's logic.
The Best Film Ever has to be the best in everything and in every genre. And that film has not been made yet. It's an interesting scenario. What does logic have to do with art? Logically, art shouldn't matter at all. But it does. And that's why we talk about it. And that's why these hollow debates about what is best actually sort of matter. They are provocations to get us talking. That's how we figure out what it is about art that brings value to our lives. And why we differ appraising it. But sure. Logic. That is really going to get us places. I can't wait till we get to the part where we talk about how we're all going to die so nothing ultimately matters anyway. That's the real good uncut stuff. |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555780)
"Certain movies are better than others" also allows for the possibility that "certain movies are of equal quality." And if we observe this, then the very best movies might also be of equal quality. Your syllogism is invalid. The conclusion does not necessarily follow.
Fair enough, I'll amend my post with "...there would have to be a best movie or set of movies ever made".
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555780)
But even of the ontology of your premises were sound (i.e., let's grant that there is, in fact, a "best" movie out there, somewhere), that brings us no closer to resolving the epistemological dilemma. OK, which one is it?
I don't claim to know the answer to this question. I'm just saying someone could give an answer to it. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
1. Touch of Evil 1958
2. 2001 A Space Odyssey 1969 3. Apocalypse Now 1979 4. Notorious 1946 5. Rear Window 1954 6. Psycho 1960 7. Taxi Driver 1976 8. Mulholland Drive 2001 9. E.T. The Extra Terrestrial 1982 10. Alien 1979 11. The Sound of Music 1965 12. McCabe and Mrs Miller 1971 13. The Godfather 1972 14. Donnie Darko 2001 15. Meshes of the Afternoon 1943 |
Originally Posted by SpelingError (Post 2555783)
Fair enough, I'll amend my post with "...there would have to be a best movie or set of movies ever made".
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Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555787)
And if so, we would not be able to answer the question, because there would be no answer (for it would be the case that there is NO best movie, only a set of indeterminate size with a number of best movies). Amending the premise fails to secure closure on the desired claim (i.e., "best").
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
An individual can answer and say what they believe is the greatest movie of all time. But a group of people like us on MoFo, forget it, we'll never agree. People can't even agree on what's the best pizza topping.
But that's all OK of course as we're all individuals and so our own opinion is valid for our own viewpoints. Me, I say there's a whole slew of great films, most which I haven't even probably seen, so how could I know what the greatest movie is? |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555781)
What does logic have to do with art?
If someone comes up with good arguments why that is the case then I'm all ears.
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555781)
And that's why these hollow debates about what is best actually sort of matter. They are provocations to get us talking
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Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2555808)
The discussion isn't about art or cinema in general, it's about trying to decide whether or not The Godfather is indeed the best American film ever made.
If someone comes up with good arguments why that is the case then I'm all ears. But that's exactly what we're doing....so what's the problem? If the answer to the question 'what is the best film ever made' is 'there isn't one'...that sort of seems like a dismissal of the question, doesn't it? Where do you go from there? Well one place we can definitely go is basically exactly where we are right now, where we can debate about the semantics of if there can ever be such a thing as a best ever movie, which is both unanswerable and has been done to death. |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555816)
If the answer to the question 'what is the best film ever made' is 'there isn't one'...that sort of seems like a dismissal of the question, doesn't it? Where do you go from there?
A question which admits of, at least, a temporary closure by way of the reasoned use of evidence and intersubjective standards. A question comparing two films. A question regarding which tier-level best fits a film. A question with clearly marked boundaries in time (e.g., Best of Films of '82). A question asking for community preference (e.g., a poll). Asking about for the "best ever" is invite someone else to play Charlie Brown as you play Lucy.
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555816)
Well one place we can definitely go is basically exactly where we are right now, where we can debate about the semantics of if there can ever be such a thing as a best ever movie, which is both unanswerable and has been done to death.
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Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555820)
To a better question, presumably.
A question which admits of, at least, a temporary closure by way of the reasoned use of evidence and intersubjective standards. A question comparing two films. A question regarding which tier-level best fits a film. A question with clearly marked boundaries in time (e.g., Best of Films of '82). A question asking for community preference (e.g., a poll). Asking about for the "best ever" is invite someone else to play Charlie Brown as you play Lucy. Play silly games, win silly prizes. Ask an honest question, don't grouse at an honest answer. Just keep sitting in the cardboard box academia built for you. Maybe one day you will be permitted some scissors to allow you to make some windows in it. Look out on a world that isn't all about grading term papers and grovelling for absolute proof to explain away those things called feelings. |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555816)
If the answer to the question 'what is the best film ever made' is 'there isn't one'...that sort of seems like a dismissal of the question, doesn't it? Where do you go from there?.
All I get from you is an eye-roll and a broad strokes description of how art shouldn't be perceived or experienced. Don't tell me I'm wrong, tell me why I'm wrong. That could make it an interesting conversation. Best film ever is... -because I love it. Sorry, not allowed because that's just an opinion. -because it was great in such and so aspect. Again, not allowed because it's too scientific and that's not what art is all about. Then whatis the deciding factor here? |
Debaters trophy room:
Listening, asking questions then trying to understand why and how another person thinks is more rewarding of an endeavor than the old sharpen your stick and debate someone to vent your negativity on. Most internet debates are just a form of mental aggression and very little gets learned from that. Myself I'm open to talking, explaining...but word fighting is something I have no interest in. |
Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2555830)
Well, when I said "that film doesn't exist" because of the reasons provided "because it has to be the best in everything in every genre" then someone else could challenge that statement.
I would challenge you with the things I believe make a film great. You believe the greatest film of all time needs to be the greatest at everything. Fine, that's a fair enough definition. But I would challenge that due to my belief that most art functions better with sprawl, with flaws, and that perfection is not what I want art to strive for (at least most of the time). It's why I would never call Godfather the greatest, because I actually believe it's probably as close as you can get to greatest by your own definition. I think it functions pretty much flawlessly on every level...acting, score, direction, cinematography, editing script, etc. And for me, as a result, it feels stagnant. It gives me nothing to hold onto. It's a reflection of its own perfection yo itself. Not my thing, and why I greatly prefer the sequel, as well as a bunch of other Coppola movies. And that's the kind of hypothetical conversation that is interesting or can actually go somewhere. Not that my philosophy is better than yours, but that there becomes something to actually discuss about what we watched, what we felt and what we think about. And to me claiming that such a film doesnt even exist yet....where does that leave us? ****ing nowhere. Talking about semantic bullshit.
All I get from you is an eye-roll
I give eyerolls to things that have been gone over a million times. Specifically things that I feel, rightly or wrongly, seem created to nullify conversations back to how talking about this stuff is worthless because it's all just opinions.
Best film ever is...
-because I love it. Sorry, not allowed because that's just an opinion. Lots of people here do this and it never occurs to me to challenge them on it. I only take issue when they tie this sentiment to their feelings that they think talking in any kind of depth, or talking about it through a lens of some experience, has no value. Thats when I say something
because it was great in such and so aspect. Again, not allowed because it's too scientific and that's not what art is all about.
If this in regards to my response to Corax, that's a long story that I'm not getting into. But I'm generally never against people explaining themselves. I just think looking for 'proof' of an artworks greatness is silly at best, and disengenuous at worst |
Originally Posted by Allaby (Post 2555742)
I would rank Ben-Hur (1959) as the best. (Fun fact: Ben-hur was the first film to win 11 Academy Awards.) I would personally consider Gone with the Wind to be better than The Godfather, but that now seems to be an unpopular opinion. Schindler's List is also a greater film than The Godfather, in my opinion. But Godfather is definitely up there in the top 10 for sure, just not the greatest in my personal opinion.
I have no problem celebrating Gone with the Wind as an achievement in production and design. It's one of the most gorgeous and visually impressive movies ever made (as is Ben Hur). It's just the story and setting that has fallen well out of today's standards. I just recently saw the whole thing for the first time, and had no idea how far it dipped into propaganda (the north never forced slaves into conscription. they freed them.) The Godfather is a bit overrated in my opinion, but that's to say I think it's an "A" instead of an "A+". It's certainly a great movie. I just think Godfather 2 is better. Deniro > Brando. And I'm not taking it back. Personally, I think the very best American movie is Jaws. Spielberg was just being modest. 😉 |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555827)
Just keep sitting in the cardboard box academia built for you. Maybe one day you will be permitted some scissors to allow you to make some windows in it. Look out on a world that isn't all about grading term papers and grovelling for absolute proof to explain away those things called feelings.
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Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555841)
Absolute proof is only demanded of absolute claims. My own recommendation is to pick a hill one can climb. I don't think that "greatest film ever made" is a promising hill.
I'm no fan of 'greatest ever' claims, or stupid lists, or giving movies numerical ratings, or any of this. But it's an invitation to talk about other things. We don't have to be blinded by the provoking terms of 'best of'. That's irrelevant. What matters is why is the person saying that. There is an enthusiasm there, even if it might be misplaced, and then we can build from there. Just throwing out the 'nothing is best' is mostly just an invitation for a bullshit conversation. It adds nothing beyond what is already essentially obvious. And it throws into doubt that there is anything else worth claiming. |
Just seen 2001 Space aodyssey on the big screen. It's astonishing..
Maybe takes top spot from touch of Evil. |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2555833)
Debaters trophy room:
Listening, asking questions then trying to understand why and how another person thinks is more rewarding of an endeavor than the old sharpen your stick and debate someone to vent your negativity on. Most internet debates are just a form of mental aggression and very little gets learned from that. Myself I'm open to talking, explaining...but word fighting is something I have no interest in. Eristic discussions are rather pointless, sure. You know the type, posting joke memes and images instead of reasons, Ad hominem attacks, Mind-reading, Poisoning the well, Overgeneralization, Guilt by association. ;) A good debate, on the other hand, offers a good stress test for your thinking. A steel sharpens steel, so does one mind sharpen another. I'd like to think that we're also allowed to have critical discussions about filmic art apart from offering "I think" and "I feel" statements. |
Originally Posted by Robert the List (Post 2555851)
Just seen 2001 Space aodyssey on the big screen. It's astonishing..
Maybe takes top spot from touch of Evil. Of course it is, and of course it should. |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555850)
I'm no fan of 'greatest ever' claims, or stupid lists, or giving movies numerical ratings, or any of this.
But it's an invitation to talk about other things. We don't have to be blinded by the provoking terms of 'best of'. That's irrelevant. What matters is why is the person saying that. There is an enthusiasm there, even if it might be misplaced, and then we can build from there. Just throwing out the 'nothing is best' is mostly just an invitation for a bullshit conversation. It adds nothing beyond what is already essentially obvious. And it throws into doubt that there is anything else worth claiming. I certainly would neither wish to express nor imply that there is not "anything else worth claiming." I find I spend too much time here already attempting to talk subjectivists away from the ledge. Far too many confident party-poopers enter our discussions and (apparently) sincerely attempt to close off discussion on the grounds that "it's all hopelessly subjective, anyhow!". Silliness generally lies at the extremes of "all" and "nothing," "best" and "worst," "absolute truth" and "absolute nihilism." A car needs just enough traction to move. Too little and you're spinning your wheels on the ice of subjectivism. Too much and your frame-deep in the mud of proving too much. The art of conversation is like that of driving, keep it between the lines with enough traction to keep moving ahead. For what it's worth, I find that I frequently nod in agreement with your posts. I'm not looking to pick a fight here, but my opinion is my own, it is an honest one, and I do believe that it may serve a productive purpose. Might we recalibrate the question? I think so. |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555855)
I took it to be an invitation to offer an honest opinion. To the extent that an honest opinion might illuminate that certain questions tend to be non-productive, it might help bend enthusiasm towards the light of more productive questions. I don't know, therefore, that the conversation is necessarily "bull." Moreover, it wouldn't seem to be obvious to the person asking the question.
I certainly would neither wish to express nor imply that there is not "anything else worth claiming." I find I spend too much time here already attempting to talk subjectivists away from the ledge. Far too many confident party-poopers enter our discussions and (apparently) sincerely attempt to close off discussion on the grounds that "it's all hopelessly subjective, anyhow!". Silliness generally lies at the extremes of "all" and "nothing," "best" and "worst," "absolute truth" and "absolute nihilism." A car needs just enough traction to move. Too little and you're spinning your wheels on the ice of subjectivism. Too much and your frame-deep in the mud of proving too much. The art of conversation is like that of driving, keep it between the lines with enough traction to keep moving ahead. For what it's worth, I find that I frequently nod in agreement with your posts. I'm not looking to pick a fight here, but my opinion is my own, it is an honest one, and I do believe that it may serve a productive purpose. Might we recalibrate the question? I think so. Fair enough. |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555852)
Then don't do it. However, why shouldn't other people be allowed to do it?
Eristic discussions are rather pointless, sure. You know the type, posting joke memes and images instead of reasons, Ad hominem attacks, Mind-reading, Poisoning the well, Overgeneralization, Guilt by association. ;) A good debate, on the other hand, offers a good stress test for your thinking. A steel sharpens steel, so does one mind sharpen another. I'd like to think that we're also allowed to have critical discussions about filmic art apart from offering "I think" and "I feel" statements. Just post like he tells you to, and there won't be any problems. |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555835)
I would challenge you with the things I believe make a film great. You believe the greatest film of all time needs to be the greatest at everything. Fine, that's a fair enough definition. But I would challenge that due to my belief that most art functions better with sprawl, with flaws, and that perfection is not what I want art to strive for (at least most of the time). It's why I would never call Godfather the greatest, because I actually believe it's probably as close as you can get to greatest by your own definition. I think it functions pretty much flawlessly on every level...acting, score, direction, cinematography, editing script, etc. And for me, as a result, it feels stagnant. It gives me nothing to hold onto. It's a reflection of its own perfection yo itself. Not my thing, and why I greatly prefer the sequel, as well as a bunch of other Coppola movies.
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555835)
I just think looking for 'proof' of an artworks greatness is silly at best, and disengenuous at worst
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555835)
things that I feel, rightly or wrongly, seem created to nullify conversations back to how talking about this stuff is worthless because it's all just opinions.
It's true that my comment "such film doesn't exist" is somewhat out of context but it certainly wasn't meant to shut down the conversation. As if. But in order to reach an agreement/disagreement with Spielberg we need to mention something that proves why he's right or wrong. According to you, that's silly. But it's also silly of me to nullify what you believe is silly. I find that a little contradictory. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Spielberg can think so. It doesn't mean we have to agree with him. Apparently it makes for some discussion though. Where does that leave Citizen Kane?
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
I just don't understand anyone's obsessive adherence or over-examination of hyperbolic statements like this. Obviously, the film *is* "the greatest American film ever made" to *some people* (i.e. Spielberg, etc.) but there's no way we could settle something as subjective as that. More importantly, to what purpose? The film has had 50+ years to prove its own worth in more ways than one. Now, if we want to dissect and discuss The Godfather and its merits (or lack of) then that's one thing. There's no need to attribute arbitrary labels to it, and we can still get a discussion going on about its story, performances, technique, impact/influence, etc.
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
For what it's worth, I've guested on two podcasts on The Godfather where me and the host go at length about the merits of the film. Here are the links for anyone interested...
Sonic Cinema: Episode 104 - Discussing The Godfather Silver Screeners: Episode 50 - The Godfather Sorry for pimping out my stuff :laugh: |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555852)
[Debating]Then don't do it. However, why shouldn't other people be allowed to do it?
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Originally Posted by Thief (Post 2555865)
I just don't understand anyone's obsessive adherence or over-examination of hyperbolic statements like this. Obviously, the film *is* "the greatest American film ever made" to *some people* (i.e. Spielberg, etc.) but there's no way we could settle something as subjective as that. More importantly, to what purpose? The film has had 50+ years to prove its own worth in more ways than one. Now, if we want to dissect and discuss The Godfather and its merits (or lack of) then that's one thing. There's no need to attribute arbitrary labels to it, and we can still get a discussion going on about its story, performances, technique, impact/influence, etc.
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No. It's either Citizen Kane or Gone With the Wind
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Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2555861)
But in order to reach an agreement/disagreement with Spielberg we need to mention something that proves why he's right or wrong. According to you, that's silly.
I didn't say this. I said trying to find an objectively true opinion, that can't be disagreed with, that is godlike in its permanence, is pointless when it comes to art. It can't be done, first of all, because there is no one way which to even designate what best even means. For some, to use painting as an example, photo realism is the ideal goal. For others, pure abstraction is. Now neither one of these is inherently better than the other and this isn't even getting into the hundreds and hundreds of other different qualifiers that further mix up the notion of what constitutes good. So it's absolutely impossible to come up with a pure agreement on these things, right off of the bat. Before we even start talking about what movies we'd even consider for 'best of', we are already completely lost. But that's not me saying this impossibility should discourage us from trying to explain what we think matters in art and why. And there are all sorts of ways this can be done, There are things we learn from talking and reading and thinking and just simply watching a film. That's what we can reference when trying to explain our version of what 'the best' is. Now it doesn't make these opinions necessarily right, but that's besides the point, because the better we become at talking of these things, the more we can give each other an idea of what we think matters. What we think is good. What has something to say. What art is? Who we are? Why anything even matters. So is Spielberg right about the Godfather being the greatest movie of all time? Probably not, because no one is. And I certainly don't agree with him, because my money is on 2001. But he might have interesting and informed and amusing things to say about why he thinks this opinion of his that I think is wrong. And that's what matters. In fact, it's actually all that matters. Just saying something, anything, even if it is all ultimately completely inconsequential. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
I've sometimes wondered if there is an afterlife, and if there is a god, and if you can ask that God stupid and pointless questions, what the answer would be if I asked 'What is the greatest movie of all time'.
And while I obviously can't pretend to be privy to this kind of knowledge, the older I've gotten, the more I've thought the only possible answer that there could be is "There was only ever one movie, dummy. What are you talking about with this best nonsense" |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2555867)
Good point, obviously they can if they want and others like me can view it as a waste of time if it's only bickering at each other. A solution is: you like to debate, Crumb likes to debate, so I invite you both to debate each other. But for some reason you both seem to avoid debating the other, I wonder why?
This can, however, make disagreements challenging -- he appreciates a well-wrought accomplishment and doesn't want anyone to monkey with it - "Don't touch that!" "If you break it, you bought it!" It's a pity because so often we agree. As for myself, I share the blame. I am an inveterate pedant and sh*t-poster, and that can be a lot to take. It would be nice if the internet had a tone feature (outside of clunky emojis and cloying disclaimers) which signaled irony, playfulness, and even flatness of affect. I find that the action is the juice. I love the clash of ideas and categories. I like tinkering. I am inclined to dissect a work of art, dip it in acid, inspect the moving parts, bang it against the wall of genre, etc. It's not just that we tend to argue, but that we approach the discussion of art from different angles. He venerates, I complicate (and yes, bloviate). At any rate, I'm not sure that we've quite yet found a way to mesh our conversational styles in a manner that allows for the cut-and-thrust of extended critical discussion. Maybe we'll get there? Tending a debate is like minding burning candles. They can light your home or torch it. Knock one over and the next thing you know a curtain is aflame. But I would rather light a candle than curse the darkness, and the occasional barn-burner can be fun if it is conducted in the right spirit and within reasonable limits. |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555879)
It seems to me that Crumb feels things deeply and sincerely. I think Crumb wants to express an authentic point of view, to put a idea out there, in the hopes that it will resonate with someone. He's found things, treasures in fact, and he wants to share them. I find this to be admirable.
This can, however, make disagreements challenging -- he appreciates a well-wrought accomplishment and doesn't want anyone to monkey with it - "Don't touch that!" "If you break it, you bought it!" It's a pity because so often we agree. As for myself, I share the blame. I am an inveterate pedant and sh*t-poster, and that can be a lot to take. It would be nice if the internet had a tone feature (outside of clunky emojis and cloying disclaimers) which signaled irony, playfulness, and even flatness of affect. I find that the action is the juice. I love the clash of ideas and categories. I like tinkering. I am inclined to dissect a work of art, dip it in acid, inspect the moving parts, bang it against the wall of genre, etc. It's not just that we tend to argue, but that we approach the discussion of art from different angles. He venerates, I complicate (and yes, bloviate). At any rate, I'm not sure that we've quite yet found a way to mesh our conversational styles in a manner that allows for the cut-and-thrust of extended critical discussion. Maybe we'll get there? Tending a debate is like minding burning candles. They can light your home or torch it. Knock one over and the next thing you know a curtain is aflame. But I would rather light a candle than curse the darkness, and the occasional barn-burner can be fun if it is conducted in the right spirit and within reasonable limits. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Now the greatest of all time doesn't have to fit every possible genre. In fact, true greatness should probably come from the ability to attract those outside of the genre's fans, or even have the potential to get outsiders invested in the genre. The Godfather is the movie that got me into gangster movies, for example.
I personally believe The Godfather is the greatest film of all time, and have so for the last few years. I know it's quite the typical choice, but it fits the standards I judge films by, and I do believe in those standards as I try to maintain a healthy perspective. Of course, my standards could still be flawed, and I find them evolving at a slow but notable pace that reinvents the wheel. 1. The goal: to be a live-action adaptation of a novel that redefined the way people look at the mafia, including a deep family drama plot that tugs at the heartstrings. 2. Success? Yes. In every way. The actors and the plot progression make your heart ache so hard it feels shot, addictingly so, especially thanks to amazing actors and perfectly thought-provoking, natural and quotable dialogue. And the direction captures everything with a sense of total artistry that doesn't distract the overpowering mood with flashiness. 3. Sacrifices? Probably thicker development for the side characters, but we get enough to love them, especially since the casting is flawless, even when we get to the poor, uncertain and nervous wreck that was Lenny Mortaga and the way Coppola rocked his bad acting by using the uncertainty. 4. Do other aspects of the film make up for the flaws? Like I said, things like Mortaga's bad acting were used like cutlery from Sur la Table. On top of that, the film has significantly less goofs and continuity errors than the average movie, even great ones. Even now I'm watching it on Pluto TV just because I was looking up the cast and saw the Google link. This is the movie that got me invested in both gangster films and Coppola, and the biggest reason for going to see Megalopolis in theaters. Filmbuff and I have our negative history during his earlier time here, but one thing that will never change: we're both Coppola nutcases. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Oh god I just realized something about these four members of the Italian underground.
Michael: the leader who tries to hard to maintain control Sonny: the hothead Hagen: the analytical one Fredo: the goofball They're the ****ing Ninja Turtles. |
Originally Posted by I_Wear_Pants (Post 2555864)
Spielberg can think so. It doesn't mean we have to agree with him. Apparently it makes for some discussion though. Where does that leave Citizen Kane?
Since Spielberg is the person who said that "The Godfather is the greatest American film ever made.", then shouldn't the question be "Where does that leave Schindler's List? Obviously Spielberg couldn't say his own movie was the greatest at a ceremony where Francis Ford Coppola was being given the AFI Life Achievement Award, but does he really believe that his own "magnum opus" isn't as good as Coppola's "magnum opus"? |
Nope, but it is a good movie at least: https://letterboxd.com/stusmallz/film/the-godfather/
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Originally Posted by gbgoodies (Post 2555915)
Since Spielberg is the person who said that "The Godfather is the greatest American film ever made.", then shouldn't the question be "Where does that leave Schindler's List?
Obviously Spielberg couldn't say his own movie was the greatest at a ceremony where Francis Ford Coppola was being given the AFI Life Achievement Award, but does he really believe that his own "magnum opus" isn't as good as Coppola's "magnum opus"? I don't know. I'm a dummy so I don't know how this works. My opinions are weird and my insight unique so I don't really have a lot to say. And maybe today we'll say the best movie is Godfather, and tomorrow it'll be Citizen Kane, and the next day after that it's Schindler's List, and then maybe someone will throw a curveball and hit us with Vertigo or something. Who knows? Film distinctions are like the tide; they ebb and flow. Do I think Coppola deserves praise for his film? Sure. I personally disliked it, but I respect it was well-made (I couldn't stand the characters) (but that is neither here nor there) (the game is fun though). And yeah Spielberg couldn't bring up his film without sounding like a total tool. That would have pissed off everyone. It was Coppola getting the award, so it was his turn to be in the spotlight. It made sense to me... I'm kind of rambling... |
Originally Posted by Corax (Post 2555879)
It seems to me that Crumb feels things deeply and sincerely. I think Crumb wants to express an authentic point of view, to put a idea out there, in the hopes that it will resonate with someone. He's found things, treasures in fact, and he wants to share them. I find this to be admirable.
Except for the admirable part, I think this is a fair assessment of where I'm coming from
This can, however, make disagreements challenging -- he appreciates a well-wrought accomplishment and doesn't want anyone to monkey with it - "Don't touch that!" "If you break it, you bought it!" It's a pity because so often we agree.
I'm all for anyone shitting on the things I love. In fact I encourage it, because it opens the door for the kind of intense conversations I'm looking for. What I don't like is having things I say misconstrued or taken out of context or have elements of it conveniently ignored.
As for myself, I share the blame. I am an inveterate pedant and sh*t-poster, and that can be a lot to take. It would be nice if the internet had a tone feature (outside of clunky emojis and cloying disclaimers) which signaled irony, playfulness, and even flatness of affect. I find that the action is the juice. I love the clash of ideas and categories. I like tinkering. I am inclined to dissect a work of art, dip it in acid, inspect the moving parts, bang it against the wall of genre, etc. It's not just that we tend to argue, but that we approach the discussion of art from different angles. He venerates, I complicate (and yes, bloviate).
I don't know what venerates means. Spread disease? Yeah, that tracks. As for the part about humor constantly getting lost in translation on these boards, it's a struggle. There is no question that if anyone who actually knows me read any of my post, even the most seemingly confrontational ones, they would be able to guess in about two seconds who had written it. But if you would ask any of these people to describe my personality, it would be easy going, doesn't take anything particularly seriously, sees the humour in everything, gets alone with everyone, treats everyone well, including people on any side of the political spectrum, people no one else would ever bother talking to and even people who have terrible taste in movies. But none of this tracks when its read on a page, because I'm not someone in real life who anyone takes particularly seriously, even when I'm being serious. And I don't want them to. Even when I'm going on at length in real life how everyone's taste sucks (which, yes, I do all the time), they all know its mostly a pose that is meant to make fun of myself more than the shitty tasting people who constantly surround me and make my life such a misery. See what I mean?
At any rate, I'm not sure that we've quite yet found a way to mesh our conversational styles in a manner that allows for the cut-and-thrust of extended critical discussion. Maybe we'll get there?
I'm aware we agree more than most people seem to realize, but I just no longer have the patience to keep digging deep into these semantical pockets you endlessly dig. It feels you disagree with things simply to keep a conversation endless, and time is short, man.
Tending a debate is like minding burning candles. They can light your home or torch it. Knock one over and the next thing you know a curtain is aflame. But I would rather light a candle than curse the darkness, and the occasional barn-burner can be fun if it is conducted in the right spirit and within reasonable limits.
See another thing we agree on |
Originally Posted by FilmBuff (Post 2555736)
Do you agree or disagree with the statement (made by Steven Spielberg last night) that The Godfather is the greatest American movie ever made?
Disagree. D.W. Griffith’s groundbreaking masterpiece Intolerance is the greatest American movie ever made. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
>Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Sure, why not? |
First of all I think it's impossible to say that any one film is The Greatest. And I think Spielberg is not only very self-important but over-imports his friends, in general, and he was really just giving his old friend a public handjob as these people do. He probably really thinks it's one of his or maybe The General or maybe something else, but it was a nice thing to say about his buddy.
But then, thinking more seriously on the question, it's an awfully good movie. But to say it or any other is The Greatest I would have to watch and/or re-watch thousands of American movies in fairly close proximity; taking into account the context of the time that the films were made and what techniques narratively, artistically, and technically were available and what had been done before them; and compare (and I mean starting over right now so no, not even Spielberg is really qualified) all aspects of the films (writing, directing, cinematography, editing, sound, music, acting, etc.) as well as the sum of their parts... and then maybe I'd have a cloud of a hundred or so films any of which a person could say is The Greatest but people would probably just pick the most celebrated among those and The Godfather would win anyway. I'm not just trying to be pedantic here, I'm saying There Is No Greatest Film. And Spielberg should know better. And did but he loves his buddy. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Spielberg should've just said, "The Godfather is one of the greatest films."
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
"The Greatest" assumes that there is a benchmarked rating scale, agreed upon by a set of believable authorities. Since we have neither of those in the movie world, I think most of us will have to be satisfied with A Great Movie and even that's changeable. Of course, some will even disagree with that assessment.
Times change and raters change. I recall once hearing in a college class that The Birth of a Nation (the old horrifyingly racist, silent version) was the greatest movie ever made. Like a lot of things in life, and even more so in art, ratings depend on the rater and even the same rater can change. |
Originally Posted by skizzerflake (Post 2556382)
"The Greatest" assumes that there is a benchmarked rating scale, agreed upon by a set of believable authorities. Since we have neither of those in the movie world, I think most of us will have to be satisfied with A Great Movie and even that's changeable. Of course, some will even disagree with that assessment.
Times change and raters change. I recall once hearing in a college class that The Birth of a Nation (the old horrifyingly racist, silent version) was the greatest movie ever made. Like a lot of things in life, and even more so in art, ratings depend on the rater and even the same rater can change. |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556351)
Spielberg should've just said, "The Godfather is one of the greatest films."
If I were at a ceremony honoring a talented friend's life works, I'd be inclined to offer some sincere puffery (true lies) in honor of the occasion (e.g., like when you go to a funeral and for 2 hours afterwards people really mean it when they say they're going to stay in better touch with each other). |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
>I'm not just trying to be pedantic here, I'm saying There Is No Greatest Film.
And Spielberg should know better. He does know better. I doubt he believes there is only one singular film that should be called greatest? It's just a figure of speech. Also who cares what these people say? They're subjective opinions. And what's wrong with Godfather being the greatest? We could have worse candidates. |
Originally Posted by Hotel Security (Post 2556401)
>I'm not just trying to be pedantic here, I'm saying There Is No Greatest Film.
And Spielberg should know better.
Originally Posted by Hotel Security (Post 2556401)
He does know better. I doubt he believes there is only one singular film that should be called greatest? It's just a figure of speech. Also who cares what these people say? They're subjective opinions. And what's wrong with Godfather being the greatest? We could have worse candidates. I’m curious, why does anyone care what Spielberg says about ANYTHING, including this? Yeah, he’s a great director, but he’s ONE guy with ONE opinion. I think there’s probably a dozen candidates that could objectively be called the “greatest” film, but everyone will see things differently. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
>I’m curious, why does anyone care what Spielberg says about ANYTHING, including this?
Because it's the internet and people always look for excuses to start debate. "This famous person said this" is one of the more common conversation starters. |
Originally Posted by Hotel Security (Post 2556401)
...He [Spielberg] does know better. I doubt he believes there is only one singular film that should be called greatest?
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Hotel Security & markdc you two need to get yourself avatars, you look like twins:)
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Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556351)
Spielberg should've just said, "The Godfather is one of the greatest films."
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Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556414)
I hope he doesn't believe that there's only one single film in the history of cinema that is the greatest. That would be terribly dismissive and make him look like a hack. He's not a hack though he's walked the line.
Those posts were meant to be assertive without being aggressive or vicious. |
Originally Posted by I_Wear_Pants (Post 2556432)
That's not as powerful though. The ceremony or presentation was to honor Coppola completely, not partially. For someone on a message board to say, "Godfather is the greatest" is different than Spielberg saying "Godfather is the greatest" when presenting an award to his friend. I understand your idea. I just feel it's misplaced for this context. Normally saying "greatest ever" is misplaced. Here I think it's justified.
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Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556442)
We all perceive and process things differently. When my brain hears Spielberg saying at a ceremony to honor Coppola that The Godfather is the greatest film of all time, it sounds insincere to my ear. I'm not saying Spielberg was insincere he was probably very sincere. It just sounds like a used car salesman hyperbola.
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Originally Posted by I_Wear_Pants (Post 2556447)
Yes there's that too. I get what you mean. I think what he said wasn't necessarily dishonest but maybe contextual? He is capable of having that opinion, even if it feels weird to us, as well as probably others who heard it. I don't mean to discount what you have to say, because it is valid.
You know if there was a thread here called What Films Do You Think Are The Greatest of All Time...that could make for interesting convo. |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556449)
Yeah of course, on a scale of 1-10 Spielberg's comment is a 0. It doesn't matter at all, just something to yack about.
You know if there was a thread here called What Films Do You Think Are The Greatest of All Time...that could make for interesting convo. Okay, but I'm not starting that thread. |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556449)
Yeah of course, on a scale of 1-10 Spielberg's comment is a 0. It doesn't matter at all, just something to yack about.
You know if there was a thread here called What Films Do You Think Are The Greatest of All Time...that could make for interesting convo. |
Originally Posted by KeyserCorleone (Post 2556453)
Wouldn't that just be "post your top 10?"
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Originally Posted by KeyserCorleone (Post 2556453)
Wouldn't that just be "post your top 10?"
Spielberg obviously puts Godfather at #1. I wonder what his #2 through #10 are? |
Steven Spielberg’s 20 favourite movies of all time
According to this article from last year, Spielberg's favorite movie isn't The Godfather, it's It’s a Wonderful Life (1946). His #2 was The Godfather. |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556464)
Steven Spielberg’s 20 favourite movies of all time
According to this article from last year, Spielberg's favorite movie isn't The Godfather, it's It’s a Wonderful Life (1946). His #2 was The Godfather. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
Didn't you just complain about memes further up the thread? It's OK, I like em, they make me laugh. Though usually I don't totally get the references as I haven't seen the movie in the image. That must be An Officer and a Gentlemen? Why yes, I am!:D
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
An imaginary Star Fleet officer that is!
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Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
The Godfather can't be the greatest American film of all time because it borrows from a story that already existed.
To compare the level of artistry: singer vs. singer/songwriter. Conclusion: Steven Spielberg was wrong and that's the final verdict. You can close this thread now. |
Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556467)
Didn't you just complain about memes further up the thread? It's OK, I like em, they make me laugh. Though usually I don't totally get the references as I haven't seen the movie in the image. That must be An Officer and a Gentlemen? Why yes, I am!:D
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Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556464)
Steven Spielberg’s 20 favourite movies of all time
According to this article from last year, Spielberg's favorite movie isn't The Godfather, it's It’s a Wonderful Life (1946). His #2 was The Godfather. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
@Corax Nope, I ain't taken the bait:nope:
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Originally Posted by I_Wear_Pants (Post 2556472)
He's must think It's a Wonderful Life is Swedish.
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Originally Posted by KeyserCorleone (Post 2556389)
The closest we've got is a combination of top ten appearances in magazines and collaborative rating sites, critical success among great masses and monetary success. For example, I made a post years ago about how the album that meets the majority of these standards, being one of the three highest selling album in the world and making many top ten appearances on the magazine and collab lists, as well as all the radio play for almost the whole damn album is Dark Side of the Moon by Pink Floyd. Now The Godfather is a contender for the above criteria, but we've got quite a few movies that meet this standard, and I certainly don't want anyone saying it because they feel they have to. I'd rather they did it because they believed it.
I, for one, never gave much credence to those sort of ratings aside from the obvious commercial impact. In that light, we really come up empty on World's Greatest Movie, since, after all, by now, lots of movies have exceeded the Godfather and its sequels in sales, streams, reviews, etc. I'd argue that the most we can come up with that's not just about the numbers is a list of movies that remain well regarded. It's a much bigger hill to climb when we try to find One Greatest Movie and we're embarrassed to notice that some long years ago, pre-Godfather, that cringe-worthy, racist, melodramatic, Birth of a Nation was the world's greatest movie. I think we're not going too far off to come up with a list of great movies, but the best of all time? I, for one, think of TGF as being "quite good". I could think of a lot of movies that are quite good. Is ONE the greatest? I don't think so. I, for one, would prefer the first LOTR trilogy. That beats the heck out Italian gangsters. I'm not damning it with faint praise, but for me, it was quite good, but the subject matter didn't appeal. Acting was good, characters decent, but it just want on too long, too much of Marlon Brando mumbling. That got old. World's Greatest Movie.....nahh. |
Re: Is The Godfather the greatest American film ever made?
What this thread needs is someone to come in and claim how there really is no such thing as a greatest movie ever made. That's when it's going to get real interesting.
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Originally Posted by Citizen Rules (Post 2556474)
You got me there, what do you mean?
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Originally Posted by skizzerflake (Post 2556475)
I, for one, never gave much credence to those sort of ratings aside from the obvious commercial impact. In that light, we really come up empty on World's Greatest Movie, since, after all, by now, lots of movies have exceeded the Godfather and its sequels in sales, streams, reviews, etc.
I'd argue that the most we can come up with that's not just about the numbers is a list of movies that remain well regarded. It's a much bigger hill to climb when we try to find One Greatest Movie and we're embarrassed to notice that some long years ago, pre-Godfather, that cringe-worthy, racist, melodramatic, Birth of a Nation was the world's greatest movie. I think we're not going too far off to come up with a list of great movies, but the best of all time? I, for one, think of TGF as being "quite good". I could think of a lot of movies that are quite good. Is ONE the greatest? I don't think so. I, for one, would prefer the first LOTR trilogy. That beats the heck out Italian gangsters. Now when you say reviews, do you mean the number of them or the combination of reviews total and general acclaim? Because if it's the latter, then the total number of movies surpassing it isn't very large. Just from the lists section I can pull up these:
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For me, I divide these things up. Greatest American film? Casablanca. Greatest non American film? Probably Something French or Japanese. I’ll get back to you all in another 6 years.
I don’t mind rankings or lists categorizing films. It helps me focus on said list and then branch out from there. Too 100 euro horror? Fun stuff. Look it up |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2556479)
What this thread needs is someone to come in and claim how there really is no such thing as a greatest movie ever made. That's when it's going to get real interesting.
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2555871)
I said trying to find an objectively true opinion, that can't be disagreed with, that is godlike in its permanence, is pointless when it comes to art. It can't be done, first of all, because there is no one way which to even designate what best even means
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Originally Posted by LeBoyWondeur (Post 2556494)
Different angle, same conclusion.
The point being, if we already all agree on the general principal that there can never technically be a greatest movie of all time, a point that has been established time and time again in other threads as well, how much fun can it possibly be to keep turning the conversation towards what no longer needs to be talked about, ever again, until the end of civilization? Maybe we should also have a thread where we each can take turns spoiling Citizen Kane. Then we can let it quiet down for a few days, then start spoiling it all over again. You know, to see if it is just as much fun the second time around. But don't let me interrupt. Please continue. |
Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2556486)
For me, I divide these things up. Greatest American film? Casablanca. Greatest non American film? Probably Something French or Japanese. I’ll get back to you all in another 6 years.
I don’t mind rankings or lists categorizing films. It helps me focus on said list and then branch out from there. Too 100 euro horror? Fun stuff. Look it up I can think of about fifty movies that don't sound dumb being mentioned in the Greatest Ever conversation. Casablanca is definitely one of them. But then, I'd probably also include Gummo in the conversation, so I definitely don't know what I'm talking about. |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2556498)
The point being, if we already all agree on the general principal that there can never technically be a greatest movie of all time, (part of the quote removed by me) , how much fun can it possibly be to keep turning the conversation towards what no longer needs to be talked about, ever again, until the end of civilization?.
And you actually helped me with that by saying "we don't even know what best means". I think that's an interesting point although I'm not sure if it will lead to anything substantial, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there (even if it's nowhere).
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2556498)
a point that has been established time and time again in other threads as well
My sincere apology. |
Well, now I feel I should shut up... it's all been said. But I wrote it, so I'm going to throw it in here anyway.
In Christian Petzold's Criterion closet picks he spoke about top 10 lists, and argued that there isn't 10, there are thousands, and movies have something to do with other movies... "they are friends" he enthusiastically insists - and he makes an interesting point. If you look at cinema, or go through the early years chronologically - you see the language of film slowly being built and created right before your eyes - and then someone like D.W. Griffith comes along and takes it all, all that discovery and advancement and puts it in 1 movie, first with Birth of a Nation and later Intolerance - and you could take those pictures, raise them skyward and say "Behold, this is cinema". This is the new peak. Later on, Orson Welles does the same with the new advancements, new style makers, and breaks a few rules in the process, so that again, we have the culmination of cinemas past, with a taste of cinemas future, you can hold Citizen Kane up in the air and say, "This is cinema!" This is the new peak. Arguably you can do that with the Godfather, but what you can't do is stop and say, "We're at the end, we found cinema #1 and are now done!" You don't stagnate, you push on and on. Schindler's List showed a shift and new growth and maturity for Spielberg, not only for the sober subject, but for him as a filmmaker, the technique - you can still find his signature style there, but he added Soviet innovators into the mix, there's some Klimov in there, which helps serve the subject matter and tell that story in the way it deserves. It's Petzold's notion of films being friends, that they are part of larger community. Kane brought a lot of other filmmakers along with it, just as an Intolerance was built on the innovations of so many directors and editors and cameramen, etc., etc. before it. Godfather is one of the thousands, inspired maybe thousands afterwards, maybe future directors and crewmembers took what it did and expanded upon it and made a new 'greatest of all time, and that will branch into a future 'greatest of all time' - There isn't just 1 or 10... Godfather, Kane, Schindler and whatever else you feel deserves to be in the mix (me, On the Waterfront), put them in there, they belong. I know we like to separate things, but movies aren't sausage links, why can't there be a hundred or more "greatest of all times"? Just one massive lump of great. (saying that, I enjoy listing, not because I'm trying to lock down a definitive, authoritative list, but because it's an enjoyable brain teaser for one, but that it also helps me organize the history of film in my mind, as well as organize my thoughts and memories on seasons and individual picture... and to invite conversation and discovery). |
Originally Posted by Captain Quint (Post 2556503)
Well, now I feel I should shut up... it's all been said. But I wrote it, so I'm going to throw it in here anyway.
In Christian Petzold's Criterion closet picks he spoke about top 10 lists, and argued that there isn't 10, there are thousands, and movies have something to do with other movies... "they are friends" he enthusiastically insists - and he makes an interesting point. If you look at cinema, or go through the early years chronologically - you see the language of film slowly being built and created right before your eyes - and then someone like D.W. Griffith comes along and takes it all, all that discovery and advancement and puts it in 1 movie, first with Birth of a Nation and later Intolerance - and you could take those pictures, raise them skyward and say "Behold, this is cinema". This is the new peak. Later on, Orson Welles does the same with the new advancements, new style makers, and breaks a few rules in the process, so that again, we have the culmination of cinemas past, with a taste of cinemas future, you can hold Citizen Kane up in the air and say, "This is cinema!" This is the new peak. Arguably you can do that with the Godfather, but what you can't do is stop and say, "We're at the end, we found cinema #1 and are now done!" You don't stagnate, you push on and on. Schindler's List showed a shift and new growth and maturity for Spielberg, not only for the sober subject, but for him as a filmmaker, the technique - you can still find his signature style there, but he added Soviet innovators into the mix, there's some Klimov in there, which helps serve the subject matter and tell that story in the way it deserves. It's Petzold's notion of films being friends, that they are part of larger community. Kane brought a lot of other filmmakers along with it, just as an Intolerance was built on the innovations of so many directors and editors and cameramen, etc., etc. before it. Godfather is one of the thousands, inspired maybe thousands afterwards, maybe future directors and crewmembers took what it did and expanded upon it and made a new 'greatest of all time, and that will branch into a future 'greatest of all time' - There isn't just 1 or 10... Godfather, Kane, Schindler and whatever else you feel deserves to be in the mix (me, On the Waterfront), put them in there, they belong. I know we like to separate things, but movies aren't sausage links, why can't there be a hundred or more "greatest of all times"? Just one massive lump of great. (saying that, I enjoy listing, not because I'm trying to lock down a definitive, authoritative list, but because it's an enjoyable brain teaser for one, but that it also helps me organize the history of film in my mind, as well as organize my thoughts and memories on seasons and individual picture... and to invite conversation and discovery). I think I completely agree with all of that. It's sort of what I think I was getting at when I mentioned above about how there is really only one movie. This person just said it better |
Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2556499)
I can think of about fifty movies that don't sound dumb being mentioned in the Greatest Ever conversation. Casablanca is definitely one of them.
But then, I'd probably also include Gummo in the conversation, so I definitely don't know what I'm talking about. I’m spending too much time in Japan/France/Italy/Hong Kong/Brazil/Taiwan lately. I have no regrets….. |
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