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Mr Minio 03-16-23 01:08 PM

I should write a book on cinema. But I have no time for writing because I watch films all day.

John McClane 03-16-23 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio
I should write a book on cinema. But I have no time for writing because I watch films all day.
You should make a movie about writing a book about movies. Go full meta!

Mr Minio 03-16-23 05:27 PM

Watch more John Ford movies.

Mr Minio 03-16-23 05:29 PM

I'm forever bemoaning the fact they never made a Cat People remake with Chingmy Yau in Hongkong in the 90s

Mr Minio 03-16-23 05:29 PM

Oh, and while we're at it, watch more Tourneur movies, people.

Allaby 03-16-23 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio
Watch more John Ford movies.
John Ford movies are excellent.

Allaby 03-16-23 05:50 PM

There we go. I just bumped the John Ford thread.

Mr Minio 03-16-23 06:00 PM

Yeah, I talked about Ford with Swan the other day. The thing with John Ford, and most directors, really, is that the more of his films you watch, the more you appreciate them. You also grow to appreciate John Ford more as a director. (There are, however, directors who have the opposite effect on me, including Caveh Zahedi.)

There's that thing with directors: Some filmmakers are consistently good/great. Add to that being prolific, and you have a recipe for one of the all-time greats (Fassbinder made more movies in the 70s than I can count, but he maintained a high quality; none of his films are bad, but hardly any are masterpieces either.). Now, there's a second group of filmmakers. Those filmmakers are usually only decent but somehow as if by a miracle, managed to spawn a masterpiece or two. Ridley Scott is that kind of director to me. He's not terrible but I couldn't call him a great director. But Blade Runner is a wonderful film, and one would wonder how come Scott managed to make it so good. Well, there are many factors that go into this equation: the cast, the mood, Vangelis' music, the cinematography, the production design, and so on.

On second thought, there's also a third group of filmmakers. Those who never made a masterpiece and whose films are consistently bad. But nobody cares about them, so it's better not to name them.

John McClane 03-16-23 06:08 PM

We call that third category going full Michael Bay.

Mr Minio 03-16-23 06:11 PM

I think I oughtta add that the 'more watch, more appreciate' thing works especially well with auteurs. There's also a lot to the idea that John Ford made so many movies. It's one thing to spend half of your life preparing an all-time great movie. But producing films like a machine and still ending up with brilliance is something we should appreciate more, as cinephiles. Not every Ford is a Stagecoach or a The Grapes of Wrath but even the movies of his I dislike look and feel like art made by a guy who knows his stuff.

Incidentally, I had an old (and highly preconceived) notion that I love all black'n'white Ford films and dislike all his color films. I don't know to which extent this became a sort of bias on my journey through his filmography, but thankfully, I managed to find movies that contradict this.

I also think it's super cool how John Ford comes off as a conservative filmmaker but so many Leftist cinephiles still appreciate him. This shows that politics matter only as much as the filmmaker's inability to transcend them. Look, I don't think there's anybody who'd say Straub-Huillet are terrible filmmakers (though I have a love-hate relationship with them, too) and yet I'm far away from their Communism worldview-wise. Have any of you ever heard of Straub-Huillet? Watch a film or two, these films often challenge the very way we think of cinema and film-watching.

To join these two seemingly disparate threads of thought, both John Ford and Jean-Marie Straub often appeared as cantankerous, though I'd rather call the latter loquacious. I disliked that about them when I was younger, but the older I get, the more I appreciate opinionated, curmudgeonly filmmakers who just do their thing and don't care about others' opinions. Maybe that's because I'm slowly becoming like that myself, as a cinephile.

Wyldesyde19 03-16-23 07:23 PM

I’ve heard (read) the same thing in regards to watch more, appreciate more in regards to directors such as Raul Ruiz and Jess Franco

Allaby 03-16-23 07:33 PM

I can kind of see that with Jess Franco. The more of his films you see, the more you get a feel for his style and can appreciate it.

Mr Minio 03-17-23 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19
I’ve heard (read) the same thing in regards to watch more, appreciate more in regards to directors such as Raul Ruiz and Jess Franco
Makes sense because both were auteurs, though Jesús was a pulp auteur in the vein of Rollin, which made many cinephiles dismiss him as trashy.

Mr Minio 03-17-23 03:27 AM

That being said, Franco did make a lot of trash (quality-wise) but his best movies could easily make it among the arthouse greats of the era. I'd say that in many ways Franco is harder to get than Tarkovsky or Bresson because it actually requires the viewer to think for himself versus simply agreeing with the cinephilic consensus.

Ruiz, on the other hand, is well-regarded amongst cinephiles. He's better than Franco both at their peaks and their quality of consistency. I've seen more Ruiz films than I had thought, but he made more than I had thought, too. So there always seems to be yet another Ruiz to watch.

Wyldesyde19 03-17-23 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio
That being said, Franco did make a lot of trash (quality-wise) but his best movies could easily make it among the arthouse greats of the era. I'd say that in many ways Franco is harder to get than Tarkovsky or Bresson because it actually requires the viewer to think for himself versus simply agreeing with the cinephilic consensus.

Ruiz, on the other hand, is well-regarded amongst cinephiles. He's better than Franco both at their peaks and their quality of consistency. I've seen more Ruiz films than I had thought, but he made more than I had thought, too. So there always seems to be yet another Ruiz to watch.
Both are directors I’ve been meaning to go through, but both have rather unwieldy filmographies. That and Ruiz films aren’t easy to find really. There’s two available on Tubi (Klimt and Mysteries of Lisbon) that I plan to watch soonish. I’d prefer to start with his older films, especially City of Pirates, Three Sad Tigers and Three Crowns of the Sailor but whatcha gonna do?
🤷

Mr Minio 03-17-23 04:26 AM

Mysteries of Lisbon is superb. Just make sure to watch the TV series version. Haven't seen Klimt but heard it's a minor Ruiz.

John McClane 03-17-23 08:08 AM

😴

i’m walking dead

mattiasflgrtll6 03-17-23 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio
Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19
I’ve heard (read) the same thing in regards to watch more, appreciate more in regards to directors such as Raul Ruiz and Jess Franco
Makes sense because both were auteurs, though Jess was a pulp auteur in the vein of Rollin, which made many cinephiles dismiss him as trashy.
I didn't know people considered Rollin trashy. He might not be the most perfect storyteller and often makes films about the same thing, but he's an expert at creating a strange, ambient atmosphere where everything kinda feels like a dream but you're still able to understand fairly well what's going on. So far my favorite is The Grapes Of Death, though The Iron Rose and Lips Of Blood are good too.

Mr Minio 03-17-23 10:35 AM

Perdues dans New York is hands down the best Rollin. Then come his vampire movies & Fascination.

Wyldesyde19 03-17-23 07:31 PM

Side note: does anyone else get really excited when you start digging further into a director’s filmography?

This week I have a Melville, a few Rollins, a handful of Fukasaku, and some Godard films planned on along with a few others here and there.

cricket 03-17-23 07:36 PM

"Ramblings" is unnecessary in the thread title. That's already assumed.

StuSmallz 03-17-23 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2378479)
Yeah, I talked about Ford with Swan the other day. The thing with John Ford, and most directors, really, is that the more of his films you watch, the more you appreciate them. You also grow to appreciate John Ford more as a director. (There are, however, directors who have the opposite effect on me, including Caveh Zahedi.)

There's that thing with directors: Some filmmakers are consistently good/great. Add to that being prolific, and you have a recipe for one of the all-time greats (Fassbinder made more movies in the 70s than I can count, but he maintained a high quality; none of his films are bad, but hardly any are masterpieces either.). Now, there's a second group of filmmakers. Those filmmakers are usually only decent but somehow as if by a miracle, managed to spawn a masterpiece or two. Ridley Scott is that kind of director to me. He's not terrible but I couldn't call him a great director. But Blade Runner is a wonderful film, and one would wonder how come Scott managed to make it so good.
Don't forget about Alien, dude!

Wyldesyde19 03-17-23 09:23 PM

Originally Posted by StuSmallz (Post 2378580)
Don't forget about Alien, dude!
Alien is only ok.

StuSmallz 03-17-23 09:27 PM

https://i.ibb.co/fNcr8Vz/giphy-1.gif

Mr Minio 03-17-23 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2378569)
Side note: does anyone else get really excited when you start digging further into a director’s filmography?
It's harder and harder to find tangible excitement in discovering directors' filmographies for me. Mainly because I've watched large chunks of filmographies of most great directors.

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2378581)
Alien is only ok.
Quoted for truth. I watched it twice and disliked it both times.

Wyldesyde19 03-17-23 09:36 PM

Haha. I think the issue is, much like Minio, Scott hasn’t done much to really wow me as a director.
I get Alien being very much influential, but I always came away thinking it’s a good, not great film.

Corax 03-17-23 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2378584)
Quoted for truth. I watched it twice and disliked it both times.

Quoted for heresy. When the inquisition comes, you are marked Minio!

Wyldesyde19 03-17-23 09:38 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2378584)
It's harder and harder to find tangible excitement in discovering directors' filmographies for me. Mainly because I've watched large chunks of filmographies of most great directors.
Yeah, I imagine for someone such as yourself, who’s seen so much already, has to really dig to find a director that you would find note worthy. Thankfully, it will take me quite a few years before I reach that point, barring an untimely passing, but I aspire to reach such a point where I can rattle off some obscure film and only a few will get a the reference.

Mr Minio 03-17-23 09:59 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
I don't know, bro, Zombi: La creazione is much better. It's more of an Aliens rip-off, though, at least the last third is. Before that, it was a quality zombie flick. Bruno Mattei's final film, too. Recommended!

I have to see Terminator 2. I mean, Bruno Mattei's Terminator II AKA Shocking Dark. It's more of an Aliens rip-off than a Terminator 2 rip-off, though, confoundingly. I find it much easier to lose myself in these rip-offs than in the actual movies they steal from. A lot of US originals are so cheesy, bad, and basic I'm afraid to rewatch them. I have no idea how I'd react to something like Star Wars (1977) if I watched it now, but I sure as hell preferred Starcrash years ago. My guess is I'd still love Star Wars because I even love the new Star Wars movies, but there's no topping Starcrash for me. Recently, I've seen a Japanese Star Wars-core called Message from Space. The music is so powerful it made me cry. Kinda Morriconian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ath53qnC1-M

I've been sorely missing films like that in my childhood so I'm making up for it in my adult life, I guess.

Anyway, it was directed by Kinji Fukasaku, the director of the Battles Without Honor and Humanity series, but also the antiwar masterpiece Under the Flag of the Rising Sun. That film was so powerful, so gnawingly harsh that it made me cry. I watched it years ago but bumped its rating to 10/10 only last year.

PS: I'm such a sucker for Chinese Ghost Story clones & rip-offs. I love even the weak ones, as long as they've been made before 1997. Some are (almost?) as good as the original.

Mr Minio 03-17-23 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2378589)
I aspire to reach such a point where I can rattle off some obscure film and only a few will get a the reference.
Not recommended. The more movies I watch, the more misunderstood I feel, even by other cinephiles.

John W Constantine 03-17-23 10:07 PM

If you don't like Alien then I don't like Alien

StuSmallz 03-18-23 03:56 AM

Originally Posted by John W Constantine (Post 2378597)
If you don't like Alien then I don't like Alien
Conformist!

Wyldesyde19 03-18-23 05:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2378595)
I don't know, bro, Zombi: La creazione is much better. It's more of an Aliens rip-off, though, at least the last third is. Before that, it was a quality zombie flick. Bruno Mattei's final film, too. Recommended!

I have to see Terminator 2. I mean, Bruno Mattei's Terminator II AKA Shocking Dark. It's more of an Aliens rip-off than a Terminator 2 rip-off, though, confoundingly. I find it much easier to lose myself in these rip-offs than in the actual movies they steal from. A lot of US originals are so cheesy, bad, and basic I'm afraid to rewatch them. I have no idea how I'd react to something like Star Wars (1977) if I watched it now, but I sure as hell preferred Starcrash years ago. My guess is I'd still love Star Wars because I even love the new Star Wars movies, but there's no topping Starcrash for me. Recently, I've seen a Japanese Star Wars-core called Message from Space. The music is so powerful it made me cry. Kinda Morriconian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ath53qnC1-M

I've been sorely missing films like that in my childhood so I'm making up for it in my adult life, I guess.

Anyway, it was directed by Kinji Fukasaku, the director of the Battles Without Honor and Humanity series, but also the antiwar masterpiece Under the Flag of the Rising Sun. That film was so powerful, so gnawingly harsh that it made me cry. I watched it years ago but bumped its rating to 10/10 only last year.

PS: I'm such a sucker for Chinese Ghost Story clones & rip-offs. I love even the weak ones, as long as they've been made before 1997. Some are (almost?) as good as the original.
The only Mattei film I’m familiar with is Rats. Although I haven’t seen it myself.
As for Fukusaku? I love his Battles Withour Honor and Humanity series. I’ve seen the first 5 so far. Didn’t care for Virus. I missed an opportunity to watch Message from Space, but I’m sure it’ll be back soon enough. I have legend of the 8 Samurai, Samurai Reincarnation, Fall Guy and The Fall of Ako Castle saved and ready to watch.

Samson_stages 03-18-23 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2378569)
Side note: does anyone else get really excited when you start digging further into a director’s filmography?

This week I have a Melville, a few Rollins, a handful of Fukasaku, and some Godard films planned on along with a few others here and there.
Sounds great! It's really exciting when you find a filmography after seeing a really good movie by a director.

matt72582 03-18-23 07:59 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Hmmm, someone I haven't mentioned before.


Tom Noonan has a few awkward man-woman date that you might like. "What Happened Was.." and "The Wife".


https://youtu.be/6qyZxXfU6e8

Mr Minio 03-18-23 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by matt72582 (Post 2378742)
Tom Noonan has a few awkward man-woman date that you might like. "What Happened Was.." and "The Wife".
Seen both, liked both, What Happened Was... more than The Wife, but The Wife was still good.

I just finished watching a 16-hour-long film in one sitting. I'm going to spend the rest of the night either watching another film before going to bed or writing down all my thoughts from watching the gargantuan movie. Oh, that film is titled 15 Hours by Wang Bing. And yes, it's 16, not 15 hours long, though at such a behemoth length one hour more or less makes little difference.

Tyler1 03-19-23 02:04 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
I'm an unabashed leftist and I can confirm I love John Ford. What matters most is to read and analyze auteurs/artists/thinkers/writers in new ways which they themselves could not have foreseen. What matters is to look at their concepts/ideas which can be used to explore problems we face today. Theres a universality to concepts/ideas as Strauss puts it. We rehabilitate thinkers of the past whom may appear problematic but have their way of approaching things. Take the best ideas and run away with it. Why focus on for example Nietzsche's misogynism, when he has created far more interesting concepts like the Will to Power, Eternal Recurrence, etc.?

Mr Minio 03-19-23 03:30 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
It took me years to realise that but Wang Bing is one of the most important contemporary filmmakers.

ScarletLion 03-19-23 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2378852)
It took me years to realise that but Wang Bing is one of the most important contemporary filmmakers.
I love what I've seen of Chinese cinema....where should I start with Wang Bing? I haven't got time for the 16 hour one as I have young children. Are there any others you'd recommend?

Mr Minio 03-19-23 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by ScarletLion (Post 2378857)
I haven't got time for the 16 hour one as I have young children.
'I have no time' is perhaps the worst mindset you can have when approaching the cinema of Wang Bing. I understand it's something you can't do much about, having little children, and all that, but the essential Wang Bing (and also his debut) is Tie Xi Qu: West of the Tracks (551 minutes long). As with most filmmakers, watching Wang Bing's films chronologically is best. Though there are some exceptions to the order you should best watch them in, including the fact it took many years to release Dead Souls (2018), so it's best watched BEFORE The Ditch (2010). It simply makes no sense to watch any of his shorter films without having seen the essential behemoths first.

Wyldesyde19 03-23-23 07:13 PM

I was thinking of avante-garde/arthouse directors that I plan on watching in the future, and I was wondering who else you’d recommend that I may have either forgotten or never heard of. So far I’m thinking of the following:

Straub-Huillet
Kenneth Anger*
Jan Svankmajer
Stan Brakhage
Chris Marker (starting some of his films up next month)
Derek Jarman (next month!)
Guy Gilles
Robbie-Grillet
Philippe Garrel.


Anyone I might have forgotten or be unaware of?

SpelingError 03-23-23 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2379500)
I was thinking of avante-garde/arthouse directors that I plan on watching in the future, and I was wondering who else you’d recommend that I may have either forgotten or never heard of. So far I’m thinking of the following:

Straub-Huillet
Kenneth Anger*
Jan Svankmajer
Stan Brakhage
Chris Marker (starting some of his films up next month)
Derek Jarman (next month!)
Guy Gilles
Robbie-Grillet
Philippe Garrel.


Anyone I might have forgotten or be unaware of?
Wavelength

Wyldesyde19 03-23-23 11:46 PM

Originally Posted by SpelingError (Post 2379535)
Wavelength
Who’s Wavelength?

crumbsroom 03-24-23 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2379538)
Who’s Wavelength?
It's a movie by Michael Snow

Flaming Creatures - Jack Smith

Andy Warhol' Factory era films (not the Paul Morrisey films, even though they are also great in their own right)

Maya Deren

Wyldesyde19 03-24-23 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2379541)
It's a movie by Michael Snow

Flaming Creatures - Jack Smith

Andy Warhol' Factory era films (not the Paul Morrisey films, even though they are also great in their own right)
Michael Snow, thanks. That is more what I’m looking for haha

Wyldesyde19 03-24-23 12:15 AM

Also, yeah, Warhol and Morrisey were two I had forgotten. Thanks.

crumbsroom 03-24-23 12:19 AM

Nina Menkes
Maya Deren
Hollis Frampton

SpelingError 03-24-23 12:22 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
I recently watched a bunch of Norman McLaren's films. Most of his films were rather hit or miss for me, but I'd highly recommend Neighbours, Pas de Deux, Camera Makes Whoopee, and Begone Dull Care, in particular.

SpelingError 03-24-23 12:24 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Also, though I've only seen a few of his films, I haven't been able to get into Andy Worhol.

SpelingError 03-24-23 12:25 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Also, this one is very underseen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUIJkIUa0cQ

SpelingError 03-24-23 12:30 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Also, John Smith.

crumbsroom 03-24-23 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by SpelingError (Post 2379547)
Also, though I've only seen a few of his films, I haven't been able to get into Andy Worhol.

Warhol's films are pretty reluctant to reveal themselves. And in some ways they are a bit of a prank that is being pulled on audiences. But the more you know about Warhol.the man, and the more one appreciates what he did with painting, the easier it is to grasp his approach. Which is basically, much of the time, turn on a camera and walk away.


Bike Boy is my favorite. But ones affection for this will depend very much on how much one can tolerate the self involved weirdos that surrounded him. Same with Chelsea Girls (which is more punishing, butore indicative of his general non-aesthetic)

Wyldesyde19 03-24-23 07:39 PM

Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2379545)
Nina Menkes
Maya Deren
Hollis Frampton
Maya Deren yes!
Meshes is so hypnotic

Mr Minio 03-31-23 02:36 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Forget arthouse.

Watch more Arnold Fanck movies, people!

beelzebubble 03-31-23 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Allaby (Post 2378483)
I can kind of see that with Jess Franco. The more of his films you see, the more you get a feel for his style and can appreciate it.
Dude, you're killing me.

Mr Minio 03-31-23 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by beelzebubble (Post 2380914)
Dude, you're killing me.
Franco is one of the most misunderstood & underappreciated auteurs in cinema's history. He churned out so many films it was hard to maintain their quality, but when he really tried, he made some great films.

beelzebubble 03-31-23 04:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2380916)
Franco is one of the most misunderstood & underappreciated auteurs in cinema's history. He churned out so many films it was hard to maintain their quality, but when he really tried, he made some great films.
Which one's would you reccommend?

Allaby 03-31-23 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by beelzebubble (Post 2380914)
Dude, you're killing me.
I promise I’m not trying to kill anyone. 🙂Some of his movies are pretty entertaining though and I like that he did his own thing. Even his “bad” movies are amusing in their own way.

Mr Minio 04-09-23 04:06 PM

I was quite unsure if it's a good idea to post this review/analysis/write-up/thing here because most of it is full of spoilers and I don't think too many people here have seen this film. But I'm going for it anyway for two reasons:
  1. Maybe it will make somebody interested in this film.
  2. It was a rewatch, I knew the plot and the ending but it still destroyed me. I'll still use spoiler tags, but the older I am, the less I care about spoilers. Because truly great movies can be spoiled and still have the same effect. Hell, some of them even spoil THEMSELVES, as if arrogantly saying "Look, this is gonna happen! But even though you know this, you'll be destroyed anyway!".

___

二十四の瞳 [Twenty-Four Eyes] (1954) [REWATCH]

https://youtu.be/QL92DcUrB5k

A rewatch of an old favorite.

There's just something about little Japanese children singing school songs that makes me cry. I already started crying on the opening titles when you only hear the children singing and the credits rolling! It only went downhill from there. I haven't bawled so hard and consecutively on a film since I rewatched Sansho the Bailiff. My head and eyes hurt from crying.

Twenty-Four Eyes is a powerful film on what it means to be a teacher, to be a student, and to truly teach. One could say that there isn't much teaching here per se. It's true in a way that the actual classroom lessons never go further than just attendance checks. But it's essential that the lessons in this film are far and beyond the school bench. The wonderful teacher nicknamed Miss Pebble is there for her pupils WHENEVER they need her. She teaches them both in a classroom and, above all, outside it.

As far as your average lessons in a classroom with Miss Pebbles go, there are two of them (there's also a lesson with another teacher played by Chishu Ryu to portray how special Miss Pebble really is!). One near the beginning of the film and another near the end. And both are immensely moving, though for different reasons. The first classroom scene may not sound like anything special. It portrays the teacher reading the pupils' names. However, there's something weird going on. Nobody says "Here!" when Miss Pebble reads the first name. It doesn't take long to figure out that every child has a nickname and prefers to be addressed by that nickname. So, the teacher decides to use them from now on, scribbling the nicknames next to their proper names in the class diary. This is moving for at least two reasons. First, the teacher recognizes the children for who they really are. Not who they want to be, really, but who they already are. (Though, she pays close attention to who wants to become who once they grow up and takes issue with boys announcing that they want to become soldiers!). The children have a nickname for the teacher, too, so it's only natural she'd call them by nicknames as well. That's what others call them. This nickname thing clears the stiff atmosphere and wins the children's hearts right away. But there's another reason why this scene is moving, and it's something that's hard to put into words. Well, it's the children themselves. Their innocent faces as they say "Here!" and we can only wonder what will happen to them in the future. And also, their eponymous eyes, that, as Miss Pebble hopes, will never lose their spark. This scene is a harbinger of what happens in the film next, but also something anybody who was a teacher (and anybody who was a pupil, too, to an extent) knows. Schoolyears are finite. Once you graduate, you are separated from your teacher. Whatever bond they had is broken by life. But this is now, and the children are playing, singing, and being innocent and lovely. And it's nostalgic in a way that I can't pinpoint because it's like nothing I remember and, in some ways, it's like nothing I've ever seen in any other movie. The bucolic landscapes masterfully shot by Hiroshi Kusuda and the sentimental yet beautiful soundtrack by the director's brother Chuji Kinoshita work so well in tandem that when coupled with the story, they create a rocket launcher of emotions.


So, there's that new teacher at the school, riding a bike, wearing Western clothes, apparently using unusual teaching techniques, teaching old folk songs to the children. Old folk songs instead of some generic new songs. But who'd have thought an even worse thing would come. Nationalistic songs. Now you can't teach children love and beauty. You have to teach them it's OK to die for the country. You have to teach boys to become soldiers.

WARNING: "Twenty-Four Eyes" spoilers below
And Miss Pebble hates this new thing, which is why she resigns. She resolves to give up teaching and make her class the only class she ever had. It's worth noting that this resolution has another layer to it. Miss Pebble may think she can only maintain a true motherly bond with her pupils if she stays true to them by never teaching another class. However, the war comes, and she loses her husband (directly) and her daughter (indirectly). When the war ends, she resolves to get back to teaching, which is the right decision because it would be a pity if a person with her heart chose to never put her humanity into young souls again.

And then, another attendance check scene comes. And the new pupils are a sister or a daughter of a child from her first class. Sure, it's moving in and of itself. But it also gives so much more meaning to Miss Pebble's mission. She did all she could to bring up a group of children, and now it's her duty to do it again and again. Losing those you love is inevitable. This applies to both your pupils and your actual children. So when you see another twenty-four eyes and innocent souls within them, this gives you more faith in your mission and in what you're doing. Despite all the gloom and tragedy that precedes it, this is a wonderfully optimistic scene.


There's obviously an anti-war film here, just like Kinoshita's early war-time films are also anti-war movies at heart. Take Jubilation Street or Army - they're anti-war without being openly anti-war. And it's understandable given when they were made. But here, the anti-war theme is strong. While the girls have to suffer due to poverty, the boys get drafted and die on the battlefields. Miss Pebble's harsh opposition to the new nationalist reality puts her in danger of being marked a Red, something she mercifully avoids.


One immensely moving scene shows the picture Miss Pebble took with the children after the little boys and girls decided to walk to her home and pay her a visit after she had ruptured her Achilles tendon. As the camera zooms in on the innocent faces, the music changes from a beautiful children's folk song to a nationalist hymn.

WARNING: "Twenty-Four Eyes" spoilers below
While the whole movie was incredibly moving, the ending is just another level. The gift scene is incredible. But there's much more to the ending. The blind boy saying he "sees" the picture is such beautiful proof of Miss Pebble's role in those people's lives. Times of yore, 18 years ago, seem so distant but yet so close to everybody's hearts. But that's not all there is to the final scene. Another reveal is that the Mother Crow from the song is Miss Pebble, and the seven birds are the children who survived! And this is a beautiful ending because it fits right into how Miss Pebble (or Mrs. Crybaby, as young children now call her! :)) was a mother figure to them while their parents were too busy working their backs off on that poor island.


It's the true spirit of teaching. Teaching goes far beyond books. It's about rearing kind, responsible, and good people. It's about trying to teach them love and humanity EVEN IF the world is mad and teaches them hate. And it's crucial EVEN IF it's so hard, and EVEN IF it will probably fail. Yes, Miss Pebble says that herself in an earlier scene. She says she wishes she could do something, and have a say, but she can't. It's about a young girl who wants to become a singer. But Miss Pebble tries and that's important!

One final note about the usual quips about the film being too sentimental. If you have a heart of stone and never cry on movies or think that maudlin movies are somehow weaker or unbecoming, or whatever, more power to you. But I've seen too many people who cried their hearts out on a weepy but as long as the films ended put their serious film critic cap on and started if not downright scolding the film for being overemotional then at least spitefully treating it as a downside, completely ignoring their emotional reaction to the film they just had. I think these people are missing the point.

PS: 1954 was such an incredible year for Japanese cinema. Seven Samurai, Sansho the Bailiff, Sound of the Mountain, Twenty-Four Eyes, The Crucified Lovers, and more!

crumbsroom 04-09-23 04:31 PM

Nice write up. I don't remember the movie particularly well, since I watched it at least ten years ago, but I believe I own it so it could be due for a rewatch.


Critics who believe there is something cheap in sentiment are boobs. Like anything, you can do sentiment well or not. Without sentiment their is no Ozu or Sirk, and who want to live in a crap world like that.


As for children singing, it's probably markedly different than the music in 24 Eyes, but there was a release from the East Coast of Canada which is exactly this, called the Langley Music Experiment, that everyone I know hates, but I find beautiful. And I'm pretty sure I'm correct on this and all my friends are dopes (per usual)

Mr Minio 04-13-23 05:16 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Machine-translated from a 3-part interview with Yoji Yamada.

This snippet discusses what would happen to Tora-san had Kiyoshi Atsumi lived longer. Apparently, he'd be taken in by Gozen-sama, which I find really beautiful because he said "Buddha loves the foolish too. Sometimes I think maybe Buddha loves Tora more than an imperfect priest like me.", which is so Catholic, by the way, that Yamada's faith becomes evident even though these are words pronounced by a character who's a Buddhist priest.

"When the late writer Shusaku Endo was still in good health, I once talked about Tora's later years.

According to Mr. Endo, Tora's body gradually weakened and he no longer had the energy to travel. Gozen-sama took pity on him and said, "You're a foolish man, but you haven't committed any crimes. On the contrary, you've saved many people spiritually. Don't let your later years cause trouble for people." I feel sorry for you, so please live at my temple." So I thought Tora was a temple man, and that he might have been cleaning and making a living.

hildren in the neighborhood will come to play at the temple. Tora is also looking forward to it, and they always play hide-and-seek together.

One day, Tora, who turned into a demon, called out to him, "Is it okay?" The children repeatedly say, "It's enough," "It's enough," but Tora doesn't come looking for him. "Tora-san, what are you doing?" when the children went to see him, he was crouching under the porch and passed away.

Gozen-sama took pity on him and decided to carve a Jizo statue called "Torajiro" and build it in the precincts. The jizo has a lot of benefits, and many young people, especially those who are worried about love, come to worship. "Is this the punchline? Hahaha," Endo-san laughed."

Alternate translation:

https://i.imgur.com/HuAIUOo.png

Mr Minio 04-13-23 05:27 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Oh dear, Yamada went full Cezanne:

"Over the course of his life as a filmmaker, Yoji Yamada has built up a varied body of work from which one can always draw deep emotions. One is left with the impression that they are dealing with the work of a master craftsman. In the book I bought in 1984 after my first meeting with Tora-san, Yamada wrote: “I want to feel the same way as those painters who have been painting the same mountains for five or ten years, or those potters who have been making the same shape for years. Even if the landscape or the form, which we look at, is the same, the thoughts that are projected onto it must be different year after year, and they must also evolve with time.” With this mindset, there is no doubt that his works are masterpieces."

Source: https://jff.jpf.go.jp/read/column/otokowatsuraiyo/

Mr Minio 04-13-23 05:34 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Speaking at the Foreign Correspondents’ Club of Japan on Oct. 3, Yamada said: “When I saw the finished film I realized that I needed 50 years to make it… it’s wonderful that at the age of 88 I could make this kind of film.” And he intends to keep going. “In the U.S., Clint Eastwood is still working away. And directors like Kaneto Shindo and Manoel de Oliveira of Portugal kept shooting films until they were 100, so there’s still hope for me.”

Source: https://variety.com/2019/film/asia/y...00-1203381787/

Well, his new movie's coming out this year. Let's hope he makes more after that!

Mr Minio 04-26-23 01:58 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Jesus. I've seen a disastrously small number of films in April. I lost the zeal due to different factors, but I've only watched 44 movies so far this month. It'll easily go beyond 50 since I still have 4 more days, but I somehow lost motivation. It's harder and harder to find new masterpieces. I'm slowly rewatching some old favorites, which is more fruitful in cinematic excellence than new watches. But I rarely feel like rewatching stuff.

It's really hard to embark on any sort of consistent movie journey these days because I've seen so much I'm only filling in the blanks now, and the territories that I'm still not well-versed in (Africa and India) just don't seem of particular interest to me. It's hard to be consistent with rewatches, too, and the idea to rewatch an entire filmography of a director chronologically sounds tiresome.

Oh well, at least I've seen four 9/10s this month (though I wouldn't rate any of them 9/10 back in 2015, I guess). And maybe I will still watch one or two more in the coming days.

Wyldesyde19 04-26-23 04:04 PM

Meanwhile, I’m trying to hit up a few films on Criterion before they are removed at the end of this month, and they keep having some issues. I keep getting “video will not load or timed out, try again later.”

Tried uninstalling and then reinstalling but that didn’t work. Guess I’ll try again tonight after work.

I noticed there is some work going on along the road to my apartment, where they seem to be removing some wires or cables of some sort, so I wonder if that’s causing the issue?

Mr Minio 04-26-23 04:13 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
That's why I hate streaming.

No Internet = No Movie = Unacceptable!!!

Wyldesyde19 04-26-23 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2384368)
That's why I hate streaming.

No Internet = No Movie = Unacceptable!!!
Out of curiosity, where do you view your movies?
Specifically, where do you find your Cat 3 and pink films?

Asking for a friend……

Mr Minio 04-26-23 04:51 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
I have my ways. :cool:

Wyldesyde19 04-26-23 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2384376)
I have my ways. :cool:
I mean…..don’t be stingy with the Cat 3 and pink films, sir. My, um, friend is interested in them…

Mr Minio 06-04-23 07:13 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Our tastes, no matter how opinionated and elitist, are prone to change. And fighting the change is pointless. Sometimes the change is so subtle, we don't notice it. But others do. In many ways, cinephilia is a hobby of open-mindedness. And open-mindedness is the enemy of doggedness. All the more laughable are the elitists who cannot see how they slowly give in to overrating movies, not maintaining their former stringent film-rating policies.

I'm glad I got loose from the initial narrow-mindedness of serious cinephilia. The world is much more beautiful when you love more things.

Mr Minio 06-10-23 05:27 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Divinity's ways are tortuous. Art's are no less.

Wyldesyde19 06-12-23 03:42 PM

Since I enjoyed Come and See so much, I’m going to watch 2 of Klimov’s early films that happen to be an available on Criterion.

Welcome, or No Trespassing
Adventures of a Dentist.

Anyone familiar with them? I assume Mr Minio is

Mr Minio 06-12-23 03:52 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
I'm familiar with Welcome, or No Trespassing, not a fan.

Agony and Farewell are way better.

Wyldesyde19 06-12-23 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2392214)
I'm familiar with Welcome, or No Trespassing, not a fan.

Agony and Farewell are way better.
Alas, I’m quite you’re correct, but I must go with what’s available

Wyldesyde19 06-29-23 06:32 PM

Has anyone here seen I am Curious Yellow and I Am Curious Blue? I’m going to watch these in the next month or so and curious about everyone’s opinions

crumbsroom 06-29-23 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2395625)
Has anyone here seen I am Curious Yellow and I Am Curious Blue? I’m going to watch these in the next month or so and curious about everyone’s opinions

Not a big fan. I'm pretty sure I remember preferring the less generally appreciated of the two (Blue?), but I found them both to be very politically strident in a not terribly cinematic way.

Wyldesyde19 06-29-23 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by crumbsroom (Post 2395631)
Not a big fan. I'm pretty sure I remember preferring the less generally appreciated of the two (Blue?), but I found them both to be very politically strident in a not terribly cinematic way.
Cool, thanks. I’ll go into it with that in mind. Always looking for something different these days, and these seem to fit the bill.

'Ozymandias' 06-30-23 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Tyler1 (Post 2378847)
Why focus on for example Nietzsche's misogynism, when he has created far more interesting concepts like the Will to Power, Eternal Recurrence, etc.?
Because we like to talk about ourselves, even when we're talking about someone else.

matt72582 06-30-23 11:23 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
I didn't like "Yellow" or "Blue" and would recommend the "Colours Trilogy" - and they're all on YouTube. I liked "White" the most.


https://youtu.be/TWu5Od-_oCQ

matt72582 06-30-23 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by Tyler1 (Post 2378847)
I'm an unabashed leftist and I can confirm I love John Ford. What matters most is to read and analyze auteurs/artists/thinkers/writers in new ways which they themselves could not have foreseen. What matters is to look at their concepts/ideas which can be used to explore problems we face today. Theres a universality to concepts/ideas as Strauss puts it. We rehabilitate thinkers of the past whom may appear problematic but have their way of approaching things. Take the best ideas and run away with it. Why focus on for example Nietzsche's misogynism, when he has created far more interesting concepts like the Will to Power, Eternal Recurrence, etc.?

What a great post.

Mr Minio 07-03-23 04:20 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
I have no idea how I went from Werckmeister Harmonies to this in 12 years. But I'm glad I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es3J3nOahnE

Corax 07-03-23 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2396304)
I have no idea how I went from Werckmeister Harmonies to this in 12 years. But I'm glad I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es3J3nOahnE

That yearling would be good eats in a few months.

Mr Minio 07-11-23 05:10 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
That feel when you upload a scene from a movie to YouTube because you hope YouTube will identify the music by copyright striking you and YouTube does exactly that, but it's a copyright claim instead of a copyright strike, so I can actually keep my video. Win-win!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCTU3eoT024

The most orgone-oozing track I've ever heard.

Mr Minio 07-29-23 06:35 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Mr. Mino strikes again!

https://i.imgur.com/Jj6iOl2.png

Feu Mathias Pascal (1925)

Wyldesyde19 07-29-23 11:01 PM

I was reading Russia Beyond’s top 100 Russian films (I know I know, but these things amuse me) and came across a film called Kin-dza-dza. Described as a cross between Mad Max and Star Wars. Anyone here familiar with it?

Mr Minio 07-31-23 06:27 PM

Kishinev inspired me to rewatch a French essay film with an idiosyncratic idea of art, culture, and objecthood in mind.

Might be of interest to @Tyler1.

Statues Also Die (1953)


https://i.imgur.com/syjrpQEl.png

The value of art depends on its surroundings, its social context, and the people who created and enjoyed it. And when art is stripped of all these things and placed in museums, it just becomes dead culture. But this idea is rarely noticed in the Western world. So, when humans die, they enter into history and when statues die, they enter into art. The people who put that art in museums seemingly preserved it, but in reality, they took it out of its context and gave it a new one. For the civilizations who made these statues, the objects they made were not just objects, but signs and tools of their way of life. Maybe they were not even images of their gods, but extensions of them. The fetishes allowed them to worship their gods and go through the whole cycle of rites and rituals that united them. They treated art objects as part of their lives, not as separate things you only engage with when you go to a special place where there is nothing but piles of these objects. And even if this was the case, there was an atmosphere of ritual around these fetishes, particular rites around those masks, and meaningful context to those statues. It is admirable that museums saved these items if they would otherwise be lost to history, but it is regrettable that these objects cannot be shown within the context they had existed for centuries. There seems to be a layer of depth and meaning that was lost by moving them from their native land to a sterile cubic room in a museum.

The idea that works of art are objects and thus cannot embrace that which is sacred is inherent to the Judeo-Christian civilization, one that fears objects and fetishes as idolatry or taboo. The Biblical golden calf or Muslim fear of portraying Muhammad are just two examples of how art objects were seen as dangerous. While there are examples of such fear in other civilizations, too, it is undeniable Plato’s dislike for “mimetic” art lies at the root of Western civilization’s ideas. Of course mimetic art was later defended by Aristotle and by other thinkers, but the damage was already done. The Westerner believes that gods (or rather God) are so powerful, so sacred, and so indescribable, that it is a sin to create an object that presents them (Islam). And even if it is not (the countless images of Jesus in churches all around Europe), the object is just that: an object. It is not the object that is worshipped, but what it portrays. But some civilizations see the object they are worshipping as that very god. And that idea is what is lost when we put these objects in museums, apart from the culture that created and used them. If that culture is long dead, this is the least we can do. Of course, the film tackles colonialism and argues that it caused the native African art to, if not disappear completely, give way to boring photorealistic statues that have nothing of the beauty of the statues seen before in the film. Or worse still, statues of Mary the Virgin and Jesus Christ. African art is now stripped of its cultural meaning. It's made for the colonialists for money. It has no other role but to be made and sold.

Each culture possesses its unique way of transforming its actions into works of art. But when people are dominated by another culture, they take over that other culture’s ideas and actions. And so the art is transformed according to those. And this is a natural process, but its results are that of contextless statues in botany of death.

https://i.imgur.com/wbbcvkcl.png

Mr Minio 07-31-23 06:31 PM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2402091)
Kin-dza-dza
It’s a sci-fi satire that takes two ordinary guys from Moscow and drops them into a mad yet amusing dystopian world. The film is a cult classic! KU! You patsak!

Wyldesyde19 07-31-23 07:05 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2402559)
It’s a sci-fi satire that takes two ordinary guys from Moscow and drops them into a mad yet amusing dystopian world. The film is a cult classic! KU! You patsak!
Sounds intriguing! I’m still dipping my toes in Russian cinema, so I need to finish off Tarkovsky and Eisenstein. A part of me wants to sow down my viewing with them, since they hasn’t made many films between them. I want to enjoy that journey.
I’m starting up Nostalghia tonight before it vanaishes from Criterion.

Mr Minio 08-01-23 03:25 AM

Originally Posted by Wyldesyde19 (Post 2402598)
Sounds intriguing! I’m still dipping my toes in Russian cinema, so I need to finish off Tarkovsky and Eisenstein.
Kin-dza-dza! is definitely not as high a priority as Tarkovsky or Eisenstein. Take your time.

Tyler1 08-01-23 04:18 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Great review. Chris Marker and Alain Resnais are two directors whom I have the most appreciation for - no surprise, both were radical visionaries who made full use of cinema by pushing it farther than their more conservative Right Bank counterparts like Rohmer and Rivette. Statues Never Die would be the precursor to their later works exploring abstract concepts like time and memory. Their views are rather nuanced and not simply a historical critique of colonialism but connect it to more metaphysical concerns - that these works of art take on new meanings outside of their original uses/context. Theres a "timeless" quality to all works of art such that their material presence can be dissolved from their milieu and yet their presence/absence expresses new IdeasWhen art is transposed into a different context, it leaves behind a void that calls upon the creation of new meanings to fill it. In a sense, bodies will die but Ideas never will.

Mr Minio 08-02-23 03:47 AM

Objectification and Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEP4rny8CI0

Hell, I don't like artificiality, but here the artificiality is so powerful that it is elevated to the level of art. This song is as catchy as the crap they broadcast on the radio, but it's also oddly progressive. The girls have sweet voices with autotune and some effects that totally objectify them in an already heavily objectifying industry. But the Japanese take a different approach to objectification than Westerners: it's not a bad thing for them; it is for us. In a sense, the Japanese like this duality: in private they can be themselves. In society, they assume a role and behave like objects that have a specific function.

The girls in such bands have a specific function. Their function is to look cute and sing fun songs. And this is how they find fulfillment. This objectification - here for the purposes of art - does not take away their personhood. If anything, it's the star factory that is damaging. And how these girls can potentially be victims of harassment, grooming, and other not-so-good practices. Or how Japan's workaholic culture keeps the really biggest bands like Perfume working 15 hours a day, making work their life. These are the true problems the Japanese are dealing with on a daily basis. But objectification is not one of them. They embraced it.

Objectification is part of not only their work but also their culture.

The same applies to the porn industry. In JAVs, women are much more objectified than in American porn. In the latter, the woman in front of the camera can be treated harshly, but she somehow retains a part of her personality, her charisma, so even if the sex is unreal, it has something in common with reality. In Japanese porn, however, the woman switches off her personality the moment the director starts recording the scene. She readily becomes an object. Not just an object of desire like her American counterpart, but literally a sex object, where she is temporarily stripped of what remains of her personhood to fulfill her only task at the moment: delivering what the viewer wants. But this is a fantasy. Acting, a role. So, assuming there is no abuse, this objectification is a role that she voluntarily enters. It is the Western civilization that associates objectification and objects with something bad. This objectification of women is on the lips of all woke activists. But as you can see, there are cultures that approach this matter completely differently.

There used to be a profession in Japan: elevator girl. Currently rare, but at the time quite popular were elevators, where you were greeted by a smiling girl after entering. She bid you farewell as you exited the elevator. Of course, that was her job. She played the role of an object, making the journey more pleasant for others. Seen from the perspective of the "progressive" West, it was abysmal objectification and sexism at that. (And probably an open invitation to harass her and treat women in general as non-human.) But for the Japanese, the woman was just doing her job. Her task was to become an object that will smile. An object with whom you can spend several seconds in the elevator. That doesn't mean that this woman has been degraded to an object all her life. NO. She came into this role at work and left as soon as it finished.

And to combine it somehow with cinema (if porn isn't close enough to cinema), most Japanese have no problem with subversive films that show situations or actions that are either impossible in the real world or considered obscene or just plain vicious in the real world, even criminal. So let's break it down into these two cases:

1. The Japanese have no problem with less reality in films, where the character behaves less naturally and more artificially than people behave in reality. For example, the domain of contemporary mainstream Japanese cinema is strong outbursts of emotions of the characters. Even if they are unnatural and hardly anyone would react like that in reality, the Japanese understand that such behavior makes sense in the context of a given scene, situation, or the whole movie. A Western viewer would probably find the acting too expressive, which would make them think that the film is unrealistic. Asian viewers do not attach much importance to realism. What counts for them is the overall effect. Emotions should usually prevail over rationalism.

2. The Japanese are less reluctant to watch (and create) content that is controversial, disgusting, repulsive, offputting, and so on. Nazi uniforms? No problem! Lolicon that depicts underage characters in sexual situations? Legal! Massive, unrealistically exaggerated brutality? Of course! Synapse-burning pornography devoted entirely to the viewer and their satisfaction, which would have no right to exist in the West? Yes! And such a free approach to art and creativity, acceptance of objectification as something natural and not necessarily as certain exploitation, and the relative lack of censorship (apart from the censorship of the genitals, but this censorship allows for incredibly creative decisions and focus on other erotic aspects than just mindless penis and vagina overload so prevalent in American porn) make Japan one of the freest countries for artists.

When we compare this with the offended and resentful Westerners, who would like to ban everything that is not in line with their morality, we get a clear difference in worldviews. In Japan, they simply understand that art is about crossing borders. It exists to project our greatest desires, most taboo ideas, and disgusting, even corrupt, thoughts. Art allows for the expression of emotions too sincere and pure for the real world and inappropriate childishness too gullible for the real world. But it also allows for heinous brutality too barbaric for the real world and degenerate behavior too dangerous for the real world. Everything we avoid in everyday life, everything that is considered inappropriate in society can flourish through art. And in this way, a fulfilled artist, and then the recipient of this art, can go out into society and be kind, moral, and human in everyday interactions with others. And after returning home, they can watch a degenerate porn film, embarrassingly tearful melodrama, or Nazi propaganda, and enjoy them in their fullest, unadulterated, perverse forms. Because that's what art is for. And that's why nice pretty girls singing in sweet voices to songs composed by unheard-of producers do their job so well. They are supposed to be nice girls who give joy to listeners. And they do just that. And as long as it's done in art and no one gets hurt, what's the problem with that?

Corax 08-02-23 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2402984)
Objectification and Art

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEP4rny8CI0

Hell, I don't like artificiality, but here the artificiality is so powerful that it is elevated to the level of art. This song is as catchy as the crap they broadcast on the radio, but it's also oddly progressive. The girls have sweet voices with autotune and some effects that totally objectify them in an already heavily objectifying industry. But the Japanese take a different approach to objectification than Westerners: it's not a bad thing for them; it is for us. In a sense, the Japanese like this duality: in private they can be themselves. In society, they assume a role and behave like objects that have a specific function.

The girls in such bands have a specific function. Their function is to look cute and sing fun songs. And this is how they find fulfillment. This objectification - here for the purposes of art - does not take away their personhood. If anything, it's the star factory that is damaging. And how these girls can potentially be victims of harassment, grooming, and other not-so-good practices. Or how Japan's workaholic culture keeps the really biggest bands like Perfume working 15 hours a day, making work their life. These are the true problems the Japanese are dealing with on a daily basis. But objectification is not one of them. They embraced it.

Objectification is part of not only their work but also their culture.

The same applies to the porn industry. In JAVs, women are much more objectified than in American porn. In the latter, the woman in front of the camera can be treated harshly, but she somehow retains a part of her personality, her charisma, so even if the sex is unreal, it has something in common with reality. In Japanese porn, however, the woman switches off her personality the moment the director starts recording the scene. She readily becomes an object. Not just an object of desire like her American counterpart, but literally a sex object, where she is temporarily stripped of what remains of her personhood to fulfill her only task at the moment: delivering what the viewer wants. But this is a fantasy. Acting, a role. So, assuming there is no abuse, this objectification is a role that she voluntarily enters. It is the Western civilization that associates objectification and objects with something bad. This objectification of women is on the lips of all woke activists. But as you can see, there are cultures that approach this matter completely differently.

There used to be a profession in Japan: elevator girl. Currently rare, but at the time quite popular were elevators, where you were greeted by a smiling girl after entering. She bid you farewell as you exited the elevator. Of course, that was her job. She played the role of an object, making the journey more pleasant for others. Seen from the perspective of the "progressive" West, it was abysmal objectification and sexism at that. (And probably an open invitation to harass her and treat women in general as non-human.) But for the Japanese, the woman was just doing her job. Her task was to become an object that will smile. An object with whom you can spend several seconds in the elevator. That doesn't mean that this woman has been degraded to an object all her life. NO. She came into this role at work and left as soon as it finished.

And to combine it somehow with cinema (if porn isn't close enough to cinema), most Japanese have no problem with subversive films that show situations or actions that are either impossible in the real world or considered obscene or just plain vicious in the real world, even criminal. So let's break it down into these two cases:

1. The Japanese have no problem with less reality in films, where the character behaves less naturally and more artificially than people behave in reality. For example, the domain of contemporary mainstream Japanese cinema is strong outbursts of emotions of the characters. Even if they are unnatural and hardly anyone would react like that in reality, the Japanese understand that such behavior makes sense in the context of a given scene, situation, or the whole movie. A Western viewer would probably find the acting too expressive, which would make them think that the film is unrealistic. Asian viewers do not attach much importance to realism. What counts for them is the overall effect. Emotions should usually prevail over rationalism.

2. The Japanese are less reluctant to watch (and create) content that is controversial, disgusting, repulsive, offputting, and so on. Nazi uniforms? No problem! Lolicon that depicts underage characters in sexual situations? Legal! Massive, unrealistically exaggerated brutality? Of course! Synapse-burning pornography devoted entirely to the viewer and their satisfaction, which would have no right to exist in the West? Yes! And such a free approach to art and creativity, acceptance of objectification as something natural and not necessarily as certain exploitation, and the relative lack of censorship (apart from the censorship of the genitals, but this censorship allows for incredibly creative decisions and focus on other erotic aspects than just mindless penis and vagina overload so prevalent in American porn) make Japan one of the freest countries for artists.

When we compare this with the offended and resentful Westerners, who would like to ban everything that is not in line with their morality, we get a clear difference in worldviews. In Japan, they simply understand that art is about crossing borders. It exists to project our greatest desires, most taboo ideas, and disgusting, even corrupt, thoughts. Art allows for the expression of emotions too sincere and pure for the real world and inappropriate childishness too gullible for the real world. But it also allows for heinous brutality too barbaric for the real world and degenerate behavior too dangerous for the real world. Everything we avoid in everyday life, everything that is considered inappropriate in society can flourish through art. And in this way, a fulfilled artist, and then the recipient of this art, can go out into society and be kind, moral, and human in everyday interactions with others. And after returning home, they can watch a degenerate porn film, embarrassingly tearful melodrama, or Nazi propaganda, and enjoy them in their fullest, unadulterated, perverse forms. Because that's what art is for. And that's why nice pretty girls singing in sweet voices to songs composed by unheard-of producers do their job so well. They are supposed to be nice girls who give joy to listeners. And they do just that. And as long as it's done in art and no one gets hurt, what's the problem with that?

People are strange. We want to laugh at adults for being stupider than they are, but also find amusement in imagining children and pets to be smarter than they are. Now, after spending thousands of years objectifying women, robot researcher are tackling the problem from the other direction, working overtime to personify sex bots.

Balor 08-02-23 06:33 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Very interesting, and it makes a few things come to my mind.

Firstly, I am reminded of a portion of an interview that I read recently with the Finnish photographer/painter/weirdo filmmaker Jukka Siikala, who observed that the Japanese "aim for perfection, not to 'please'" in the sense that they value formal purity/idealism over the comfort, purpose, or individuality of the human participant or viewer. (I think of their notoriously arduous tea ceremonies as one potential illustration.)

Secondly, I actually think of the west and how close we have come, at various points to a similar situation. Sade wrote his "Yet Another Effort, Frenchmen, If you would become Republicans" soon after his release from the Bastille and would incorporate it into the closing sections of Philosophy in the Bedroom. In these two texts, he effectively argues in favor of the second point that you make above, insisting that such freedom/willingness to objectify and be objectified are necessary components to a free society. Interestingly, Adorno and Horkheimer each associate Sade with the Enlightenment as its logical ramification rather than inverse. As I understand their argument, Sade, while not always manifesting in the West, is nevertheless an integral component of its cultural essence.

I'm not exactly sure where I am going with this, but thinking through your post and my musings above (and since this is a film forum, after all), I ultimately end up with this quote from Bergman: "A film director is often like a cannibal, and a cannibal watches people, listens to people, looks at them…and uses them."

So maybe my point is that whether we acknowledge it or not, we really do the same as the Japanese? And if the Japanese are more transparent about the whole thing, aren't we in the West worse?

Mr Minio 08-02-23 06:37 PM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
A child's sincerity, gullibility, and pure unadulterated love make it a superior human being. They're tabula rasas not yet soiled by the cruelty of the world.

And then the child watches Emperor Tomato Ketchup.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82K7EJUY3ME

Mr Minio 08-02-23 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Balor (Post 2403118)
the Japanese "aim for perfection, not to 'please'" in the sense that they value formal purity/idealism over the comfort, purpose, or individuality of the human participant or viewer
Mishima's On the Defense of Culture is about the topic. Mishima bemoans that Japan will lose everything brutal and formal about it and turn into a peaceful country of pleasant people. Today's Japan is both. They somehow found the balance, the golden mean. But yes, they often aim for perfection. When 5 pm hits the clock in the US, the film crew goes home. In Japan, the film crew stays up late until the director says that's it for today. You know, when millions of people work tirelessly 10 hours a day 5 days a week, a few of them are bound to create incredible art.

Originally Posted by Balor (Post 2403118)
Secondly, I actually think of the west and how close we have come, at various points to a similar situation
We're definitely far off as a whole, but the Internet absolutely makes the borders between countries disappear. Nowadays you're pretty much exposed to so many different cultures that such differences are less pronounced than ever before. But the overall approach is different, I believe. Japanese society is still based on Confucian values (their own weird spin on Confucianism, but still), whereas we, like it or not, have the Judeo-Christian and Abrahamic values ingrained in our brains. But the West is happier to ban and silence anything that they deem immoral, i.e. is not aligned with mainstream morality, which can mean both Christianity and wokeism.

Originally Posted by Balor (Post 2403118)
such freedom/willingness to objectify and be objectified are necessary components to a free society
So that nothing is censored is one thing. Another thing is so that we have a way to realize our desires and dreams in a safe and respectful way. We all have obligations to the society. But we can lift them by indulging in art that is free of these obligations. Art is supposed to be that which we cannot be on a daily basis. That which is too menacing in real life. And objectification can be a good thing, too. Because it allows you to forget all the social norms and just indulge in something on a more primal level of freedom. Exposing yourself to immorality can actually make you more moral. It can strengthen your morality simply because one who knows evil can see the good shine much brighter.

Originally Posted by Balor (Post 2403118)
"A film director is often like a cannibal, and a cannibal watches people, listens to people, looks at them…and uses them."
I think what Bergman meant was that a film director absorbs the experiences of other people and then transforms them into something new and different. Into art. James Benning said, "I have a very simple definition of an artist. The artist is someone who pays attention and reports back".

Originally Posted by Balor (Post 2403118)
So maybe my point is that whether we acknowledge it or not, we really do the same as the Japanese? And if the Japanese are more transparent about the whole thing, aren't we in the West worse?
We're much more hypocritical. Much more uncomfortable about making any distinctions between the private us and the public us. We want to be the public us even in private because we're afraid that otherwise we'll be committing a thought crime, or we'll be untrue to our ideals. I don't think the Westerner sees art as that haven, as a way to be released from societal constraints. (Of course, some of us do. The entire divide between "the Japanese" and "the Westerner" is stereotypical. It has to be when we're trying to make any comparisons on such a high level.) The people in the West are more prone to gauge art by the standards of the real world, but art is not the real world, and it shouldn't be! The fact somebody enjoys watching serial killer movies doesn't mean that they'll start killing people in real life. Watching subversive art doesn't mean you agree with everything that this art says or shows. But even if you do enjoy a rape scene, or maliciously laugh at a brutal comeuppance to an annoying character, it still has nothing to do with your morality in the real world. People used to evangelize against brutal video games that were supposed to be the root of all evil. Then metal music was the purported cause of the school shooting. People always try to find the culprit, but the culprit is always the person who commits a crime in real life. And claiming that seeing murder in a film will make you want to murder people in real life is ridiculous. There's a divide between things you choose to indulge in privately and things you want to do in public. And they have a small intersection, but all things art are mostly just that: art. There's always a deliberate step between seeing something and acting it out in real life. Usually, there are many steps. And it's really funny to see people who want to ban something because it's triggering, racist, or misogynistic. These people usually frown upon the other side's attempts to ban something because it's immoral. They can't see their own hypocrisy.

Balor 08-02-23 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2403135)
Mishima's On the Defense of Culture is about the topic. Mishima bemoans that Japan will lose everything brutal and formal about it and turn into a peaceful country of pleasant people. Today's Japan is both. They somehow found the balance, the golden mean. But yes, they often aim for perfection. When 5 pm hits the clock in the US, the film crew goes home. In Japan, the film crew stays up late until the director says that's it for today. You know, when millions of people work tirelessly 10 hours a day 5 days a week, a few of them are bound to create incredible art.

We're definitely far off as a whole, but the Internet absolutely makes the borders between countries disappear. Nowadays you're pretty much exposed to so many different cultures that such differences are less pronounced than ever before. But the overall approach is different, I believe. Japanese society is still based on Confucian values (their own weird spin on Confucianism, but still), whereas we, like it or not, have the Judeo-Christian and Abrahamic values ingrained in our brains. But the West is happier to ban and silence anything that they deem immoral, i.e. is not aligned with mainstream morality, which can mean both Christianity and wokeism.

So that nothing is censored is one thing. Another thing is so that we have a way to realize our desires and dreams in a safe and respectful way. We all have obligations to the society. But we can lift them by indulging in art that is free of these obligations. Art is supposed to be that which we cannot be on a daily basis. That which is too menacing in real life. And objectification can be a good thing, too. Because it allows you to forget all the social norms and just indulge in something on a more primal level of freedom. Exposing yourself to immorality can actually make you more moral. It can strengthen your morality simply because one who knows evil can see the good shine much brighter.

I think what Bergman meant was that a film director absorbs the experiences of other people and then transforms them into something new and different. Into art. James Benning said, "I have a very simple definition of an artist. The artist is someone who pays attention and reports back".

We're much more hypocritical. Much more uncomfortable about making any distinctions between the private us and the public us. We want to be the public us even in private because we're afraid that otherwise we'll be committing a thought crime, or we'll be untrue to our ideals. I don't think the Westerner sees art as that haven, as a way to be released from societal constraints. (Of course, some of us do. The entire divide between "the Japanese" and "the Westerner" is stereotypical. It has to be when we're trying to make any comparisons on such a high level.) The people in the West are more prone to gauge art by the standards of the real world, but art is not the real world, and it shouldn't be! The fact somebody enjoys watching serial killer movies doesn't mean that they'll start killing people in real life. Watching subversive art doesn't mean you agree with everything that this art says or shows. But even if you do enjoy a rape scene, or maliciously laugh at a brutal comeuppance to an annoying character, it still has nothing to do with your morality in the real world. People used to evangelize against brutal video games that were supposed to be the root of all evil. Then metal music was the purported cause of the school shooting. People always try to find the culprit, but the culprit is always the person who commits a crime in real life. And claiming that seeing murder in a film will make you want to murder people in real life is ridiculous. There's a divide between things you choose to indulge in privately and things you want to do in public. And they have a small intersection, but all things art are mostly just that: art. There's always a deliberate step between seeing something and acting it out in real life. Usually, there are many steps. And it's really funny to see people who want to ban something because it's triggering, racist, or misogynistic. These people usually frown upon the other side's attempts to ban something because it's immoral. They can't see their own hypocrisy.
I will check out that Mishima essay---I haven't read any of his nonfiction apart from Sun and Steel and a short essay on a photographer, but it sounds very consistent with his aesthetics in other works by him!

I should have been clearer with the second point---I meant more of coming close on a few occassions to having equal instantiations of that aesthetic ideal. I think that Sade does near it, on some occassions. Culturally, I imagine we have been and remain very different (I have never been to Japan!).

With the other points, there is a lot there and I have various, internally conflicted responses to them.

On the one hand, I 100% agree that there is a very thick line between private/aesthetic interests and who one is, morally speaking. I know that full well from my own personal life and interests. I can speak better sometimes with literary examples, but Dennis Cooper has said essentially the same thing:
https://youtu.be/Cw_1nbO8LWw

I agree that's what Bergman is meaning, but I think that the particular words he is using are very interesting in the context here. He could have used Benning's words, but he didn't. After seeing From the Life of the Marionettes, Hour of the Wolf, as well as various other scenes across different movies, I think there is definitely a perverse and self-loathing side to his work---which alligns very well with what you say about the West broadly defined.

What this makes me wonder about, though, would be what does this hypocritical/self-loathing aesthetic look like (in film or otherwise), when taken to its logical extent? Not in the sense of a passive reflection of a pervasive cultural attitude, but a self-aware orientation to and through it. What I find interesting is the possibility of the greater insistence on honesty about what one does and why that is seemingly promised in a society that knows what it is through what it says that it hates. Like a good mirror.

I know that in terms of literature, we have Sotos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpJVnQMk1RQ&t=317s

For film, however, I am very curious what others could suggest.

Mr Minio 08-07-23 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Balor (Post 2403159)
For film, however, I am very curious what others could suggest.
I think the Westerner is very well aware of their hypocrisy. Watch Lumet's The Offence.

Sooooo is José Val del Omar actually a genius or what?

It kinda just dawned on me today.

Balor 08-07-23 06:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2404038)
I think the Westerner is very well aware of their hypocrisy. Watch Lumet's The Offence.
This seems like a perfect example of what I am looking for (and it streams for free online!). Thanks.

Mr Minio 08-14-23 11:35 AM

Re: Minio's Ramblings on Cinema
 
Binge-watching pretty much nothing but Taiwanese and Hong Kongese entertainment: Day 3.

Wyldesyde19 08-14-23 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Mr Minio (Post 2405474)
Binge-watching pretty much nothing but Taiwanese and Hong Kongese entertainment: Day 3.
What did you watch?


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