Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

To share my experience, I became hooked on Von Trier's films a while back, and he climbs my list of favorite directors with every film of his I watch. So far I've seen The Element of Crime, Europa, Breaking The Waves, Dancer in The Dark, Antichrist, Melancholia, and Nymphomaniac. I LOVED all of these projects with the exception of the latter, which I thought was OK. Breaking The Waves is now one of my top ten favorite films. I thought the depiction of Emily Watson's childish character being confused and overwhelmed by her love through primitive thinking was shockingly accurate. It actually triggered some memories from middle school and early high school, and I was in tears at many points of the film. I think he captures the emotions he depicts super accurately, and I adore how personal his films are.

I've never quite understood what it is about Von Trier that splits audiences so strongly. It's one thing to not like his films, but it seems like anyone who doesn't like him despises him and thinks he the scum of the filmmaking world. It's a polar opposite kind of thing.
He's not that bad, is he? People really, really hate him. On the more juvenile discussion boards around the web, the way his critics talk about him really reminds me of the way directors like Uwe Boll Michael Bay etc. get talked about - he gets completely dismissed as a hack and anyone who isn't completely negative about him gets the "Lol GTFO idiot" treatment.

I'm not necessarily here to defend Lars Von Trier; this has just always puzzled me. I love his films, and nobody else really needs to. I just don't know what makes him so horrible. I understand he's a weird person etc., but I think if nothing else he's at least a serious and passionate filmmaker.

Can someone enlighten me?

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

I've only seen one of his films, Breaking the Waves, in it's entirety, but I felt punished by that movie. It was slow, it was difficult to watch, and I left the theater feeling depressed. His films are not my bag.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

I'm actually ambivalent about Lars von Trier. I don't exactly hate it, but I don't think he's that great either. As of writing I have seen The Idiots, Dancer in the Dark, Dogville, Antichrist, and Melancholia, so that should give you an idea of my reference pool when it comes to his films. I think the main reason that von Trier would be dismissed as a hack is because, in my experience, he does peddle a rather vapid brand of arthouse filmmaking. The Idiots marked his first use of Dogme 95, a manifesto that strove to abandon cinematic artifice but in doing so created its own brand of artifice. Though von Trier later denounced the movement as a failure, he still uses the same technical style that's full of documentary-like features such as unsteady cameras and choppy editing to ground his films in a sort of realism, but it does give him a rather ostentatious cinematic trademark that may lead people to think he's trying too hard to convince viewers of the reality of any given situation.

There's also the fact that - at least in the films I've mentioned - his attempts at conveying bleak emotions and mental instability also tend to come across as extremely misanthropic. The Idiots is about people who pretend to be mentally challenged for their own amusement (under the guise of chasing a higher understanding, which seems like a deliberate attempt to mock Dogme 95 from within), Dancer in the Dark shows a disabled woman's attempts to care for her son resulting in her being put through some extremely harsh circumstances, Dogville has an entire village of well-meaning country folk descend into unquestioning barbarism with the arrival of a frightened woman running from gangsters, while Antichrist and Melancholia both feature mentally unstable protagonists whose actions may be driven by the fact that they have severe depression but the consequences of that mental illness still end up being played out pretty horribly. Just look at any of the violent acts Charlotte Gainsbourg perpetrates during the second half of Antichrist or Kirsten Dunst's self-destructive behaviour that involves her lashing out at anyone she comes into contact with during Melancholia.

Hell, Antichrist in particular became notorious on the basis of its more shocking acts of physical violence more so than because of any actual depth to its surreal nightmare imagery. That probably sums up why people think von Trier is a hack - he's all sizzle and no steak. His films tend to be these harsh, miserable, pessimistic, slow-paced affairs (which are apparently influenced by his own struggle with depression) where a deliberate lack of style becomes its own style and the characters are all horrible people who are horrible to one another and to themselves. There isn't a whole lot of depth to these characters beyond the fact that they all seem to have severe psychological problems (or, in the case of The Idiots, pretend to have) that seem to be intended as excuses for the characters' more extreme deeds while also making their punishments come across as exceptionally severe.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Have seen Anti-Christ (jesus was that watch), Melancholia, and Nymphomaniac Vol I and II.

I would love to see him do something straight forward, not envelope pushing and with an actual story and plot.

I have only seen one film of Von Trier's and that is Melancholia. It was a very difficult watch. Very dark (not a bad thing), pessimistic (in of it self not bad), slow (not bad when done correctly), and totally depressing. Then again the man does suffer from depression and that was the point of the film, so it is had for me to justify that complaint. I have not written off Von Trier yet as a filmmaker since I generally try to watch at least 3 or 4 films of theirs before I decide I have had enough. But I admit Von Trier is not really a filmmaker I am rushing to see all of his work since what I have experienced was a very challenging watch with little pay off. As such I can't really comment on Von Trier the filmmaker. The only other explanation I have is that some people hate some of Von Trier's off and on set actions, and that influences people's opinion of him. We do live in an age of "I hate X's art, politics, ideas, face etc so I must hate X as a person too."

But ultimately that should not matter. What matters is how YOU feel about him. Obviously he has struck a personal cord with you, and when a film or filmmaker does so you know that you have found something special. Embrace it. Who cares what others have to say or even if the opinion is popular? I hold a less popular view that Kevin Smith is a fantastic director and storyteller. A sentiment not exactly shared by many outside of his core fan base. Smith is not a mainstream director, nor will he ever. But he is one of my favorite directors, and was to my teenage years what Spielberg was to my childhood and what Scorsese is to my adult life. If I find someone who shares that view, great. If not, oh well. I hold this view because despite what others on the net say, because Kevin Smith hits a very special cord for me. A cord only a handful of other directors have done. I also hold the very unpopular view that Quentin Tarantino (one of the most critically praised and beloved filmmakers of this generation) is highly overrated. A view that if I said this on other sites would result in a flame war with my credentials as a film lover, intelligence, and lets face it my sexuality called into question.

If you love Von Trier and his films and they hit that special cord, then embrace it. Because when art has that kind of effect on you the director has to be doing something right. And f**k the rest who insinuate that you are any less of a cinephile for liking his movies.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

You'd probably have to ask the people who hate Von Trier why they hate him. But I suspect it has to do with what can be seen as attention seeking and being deliberately controversial.

I like Breaking the Waves, Dancer in the Dark and Dogville a lot. I thought Melancholia and Manderlay were problematic, though, and I can see how if you didn't like the films, you might feel as if you were being deliberately wound up, that Lars von Trier was trolling the audience.

I have so much respect for anyone who thinks like this. I've often in the past let popular opinion decide what I think of certain films. As I get older and I watch more and more films, I've really learned to like and dislike whatever I choose. A lot of times these days, I end up never reading up on the general consensus of the films I watch, whereas before I virtually adhered my tastes to RottenTomatoes ratings.

But I guess that's tastes! People are just different, and therefore like and dislike different things for different reasons. I just think it's always interesting when certain filmmakers such as Von Trier divide audiences so strongly. It's always interesting to learn where people are coming from, their experience etc.

Thanks for the input!
What I think I'm learning from this and other posts is that I'm just a sucker for the strong way Von Trier manipulates the audience's emotions. Nothing wrong with this either, but it's good to know for sure. And I love some controversy in a filmmaker; another director that's becoming one of my favorites is Jean-Luc Godard :laugh:

Give The Boss of It All a try. It's a comedy with a story. Has his usual style, of course, but it's a strangely fun movie. You want something any more straight forward and you'd be better off seeking another director.

Lars Von Trier is an extremely polarizing director, and I can definitely understand why many would hate him. In my experiences for every great film he has an equally mediocre and seemingly pointless film. I love Dancer in The Dark and Antichrist, I believe they are some the greatest works of the 2000s. The Element of Crime, Europa, and Melancholia on the other hand I felt completely detached to. Even in his recent of Nymphomaniac, I thought part 1 was pretty good but it started falling in the second part, with a predictable ending and some questionable scenes. Some of his film experiences can give off a Haneke/Godard effect in how pretentious they are. In Nymphomaniac it often feels like he's showing off his "knowledge" of western European culture. Instead of blending in his knowledge, he just smears it into the film. Whether it's eating the pastry with the fork or the connections Seligman makes, it's all unnaturally put in. He uses pretentious characters to spew out his faux sense of culture. Directors like Bunuel and Woody Allen show that you can still bring culture into a film, without just making it seem like you're showing off your knowledge. His films are polarizing and so is the man himself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpUqpLh0iRw
I thought this was a funny moment in how awkward he was- I even used a screenshot of it as my avatar at one point- but it's a stupid thing to say and even past the language barrier he comes off as an idiot the way he puts his statement. I understand he was joking, but really shows his lack of judgement.

If there's any director where it would make sense how some can love him and many others can hate him, it's Lars Von Trier

Have you seen Dogville? It's one of my favorite films of the 2000s. I'm less familiar with his earlier work. I disliked Melancholia overall, and I couldn't get past the stupidity of the "dance of death," and while I've had Nymphomaniac in my Netflix queue for the last year, I still haven't watched it yet. Dancer in the Dark is very good and Antichrist has perhaps the most pervasively evil tone of any movie I've ever seen. The best thing to do with Lars von Trier is not to pay attention to him as a man, but to only look at his work, for good or bad.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

You do realize that Von Trier has made some controversial remark and that him and Nicolas Winding Refn had a confrontation as well..

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ntrovery/?_r=0

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-en...r-2352550.html

I, myself, is a huge fan of Danish cinema... and I enjoy both directors films.

Von Trier, I have seen "Medea", "Dogville", "Breaking the Waves", "Antichrist", "Manderlay", "Melancholia" and "Nymphomanic 1 & 2". I enjoy Von Trier's style. His films always tend to surprise me. My best friend is a huge Von Trier fan.

Winding Refn, I have seen "Pusher", "With Blood On My Hands: Pusher 2", "Bleeder", "Pusher 3", "Bronson", "Valhalla Rising" and "Drive" (which I did not care much for).

I have seen the same amount of films from both.. but as far as the comment about Nazis that Von Trier made and Winding Refn commented on.... I would say that yeah... a lot of people are going to dislike Von Trier.

I wont stop watching his films but he's not my personal favorite anymore.

The Cannes comment is notorious, but this was the first I'd heard about this feud with Nicolas Winding Refn.
I've actually never really thought much about such comments that he's made. He really will say anything and everything, and his behavior is so erratic that I never took it seriously. I just can't get offended by a man who's so obviously out of his mind.
It's really weird; Lars Von Trier the person seems so different from Lars Von Trier the filmmaker. In public appearances he's a weirdo and a complete troll, but his films feel so honest and vulnerable IMO. Now that I think about it, it's pretty crazy that this man made those films.

I can definitely see why that would make him easy to dislike, but his media personality certainly doesn't make his films any better or worse. There's lots of people that hate Von Trier the filmmaker, and not just Von Trier the person.
This is definitely a side of him worth noting though.

I need to see more Von Trier.. some of the films I have seen are pretty rare for others to see.... but like I said.. My best friend loves his work...

Winding Refn, I love his work as well... but please go back to using Mads Mikkelsen and get rid of Ryan Gosling..

I've been meaning to check out Winding Refn, but needed that reminder. Thanks!
I actually didn't realize he was Danish until now. This thing with Von Trier looks prettty interesting.
If you like Danish, do you also like Carl Theodor Dreyer? :D

Yes... I do enjoy his films

more recent directors I enjoy from Denmark are Thomas Vinterberg, Kristian Levring, Susanne Bier and Anders Thomas Jensen.

and Im a big fan of certain Danish actors ~ Mads Mikkelsen (whose the dark haired in my avatar), Ulrich Thomsen, Thomas Bo Larsen, Kim Bodnia and several others.

Although many consider his films as extremely pretentious just for the pleasure of being (something with which I personally disagree), I think that most people who hate him are for reasons that transcend beyond his cinematic work.

That's what should be done not only with Von Trier, but with everyone else. The "problem" is that many people believe that public figures must conform to a certain type of behavior, as if they were obliged to behave in certain ways, but it isn't so, it is an erroneous preconceptions.

I own Dogville but haven't watch it yet, at this point saving it for a rainy day

No one's obliged to act a certain way, but it's the publics right to judge a person on his actions. That should be separate from judging the man's work though

Right? What right can have the public to judge the actions of a person? Absolutely none, and therein lies part of the confusion. You may like or not the things he does with his life and his statements beyond his job, but judge a person is something different and almost out of place. We are not to evaluate or judge a person by events that are part of his life, but his work in any case.

What would take away my right to judge a person? What gives me the right to judge a manz artistic work but not his actions. If I think Van Gogh is a nut for cutting off his ear I can believe and express that, as I can call VON Trier an idiot for statements he made in public. Or I can call him a genius, either way it's my right.

Right to judge a person? Are you listening to yourself? From what superior intellectual chair are you talking about? Judge his work is one thing, but to judge a person? Is that perhaps you know him personally? Or are you one of those who like to label people without really knowing them and just let yourself go by random statements you heard once?
I repeat you can like it or not, but judge a person? Are two different things.

But of course today most people believe they can judge others by their actions and sayings, as if they possessed the recipe for how to behave determined person. I do not do that, I do not judge a person by that sort of thing (statements and those sort of things). And I do not think anyone has that right.

Different is judge the work of a person, if someone says that Von Trier's work is terrible, or whatever it was, is his right as a spectator of his work. But judge him as a person without really knowing him and insult him is really stupid and lazy, but something so simple and easy to do.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Pretty sure everyone judges everybody in one way or another. Not sure why there's outrage shown about that exactly?

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Again why can I judge his work but I can't judge him on things he says to the media, all for the public ear? I'll judge Mel Gibson based on his anti semetic remarks as an ignorant anti semite. I will judge a politician based on his actions. I will judge Ray Rice as a wife beating scumbag. And I will judge a film maker based on his remarks and actions. By your standards I can't judge Hitler, because I didn't know him personally. That's just absurd, of course I have a right to judge people. And sure I will put myself on a higher chair than a wife beater or a rapist. As I will judge someone greater than myself in his actions, and put myself lower. And of course I have a right too, what's stopping me?

You yourself are judging me based on a few statements you've read from this thread.

Now you throw Hilter in the same bag when we were talking about Lars Von Trier and something he said in an interview, which no longer makes sense to continue talking to you. Apparently Hitler and Lars are the same thing for you. No, you have no right to judge anyone by a said, but obviously you like to do easily.

Trying to find hypocrisy in my answer? I'm not judging you, I'm not doing that, I was just talking to you, but you're having trouble understanding the difference between simple concepts, but It is ok.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Stop judging him.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Judgement. How can you say I like to do something easily on from a few of my statements?

You are judging me assuming that Hitler and Lars are the same to me based on one statement. You have no right to do that. Can a mod please ban "Tenebra"

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

He is a great film maker, but his work makes me fell like ****, so i dislike it. He certainly knows what he is doing, though.

@ Donnie: No, I won't ban someone because they disagree with you.

Just a quick note on rights, as well. A right can't be given or taken away, only recognized, or not.

OK, but you are coming down on Donnie for statements he made in the thread, acting as if he was obliged to conform to a certain type of behavior that you think appropriate. Why should he adjust his behavior due to the opinion of a stranger on the internet? Why do you think private citizens should conform to behavior you deem appropriate?

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Just to clarify the ban thing was a joke

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

I've only seen Nymphomaniac Vol. 1 but it made me not want to watch the second part. Something like Dogville looks a little more interesting, but I'm not in a rush to get round to his films.

I got a similar feeling to another celebrated modern director, Steve McQueen. That he's a director who's seen a lot of art films, and has a great appreciation for them and the power of the cinema, and he knows in terms of style how to create striking and manipulative images, and uses this to create images that attempt to gain some kind of emotional reaction (a negative one). But beyond the style I didn't find anything interesting to watch, it was one-note stretched out and done in a cinematically uninteresting manner for me. Maybe I'm jumping to conclusions a bit too early, but there :p

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

"He had some uh talent... that was um kinda possible for him to um use... Okay I'm a Nazi."

Don't really hate him, but he's a bit hilarious to watch during interviews.
Antichrist was great though

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Well, Daniel, despite what some MoFos think, Nymphomaniac is von Trier's worst, so I wouldn't use that as a baseline. My faves are The Kingdom and Breaking the Waves, although you probably learn more about him personally in The Five Obstructions. As far as why people may hate him. he does go out of his way to reinvent cinema and himself with each film, so people most-likely hate him for the same reasons that they hate Godard, but I like von Trier's films much more. They both have an anti-American bias, so that could bother a few people too.

I think it's too early to judge a director based on just one movie (or even two). In that regard I'd consider someone like Ozu to be one of, if not the most overrated director of all time, but because I've only seen one film of his, I don't.

Oh, I absolutely know what you mean. I actually like Steve McQueen and have never heard that criticism before, which sounds really spot-on. It sounds kind of like the "pretentious" criticism I hear about a lot of art films, but hasn't been explained to me very well before. If that kind of filmmaking isn't your taste, I can understand the choice to stay away from Von Trier.

At the same time though, I don't think Nymphomaniac is the best film to judge him by :p It's still technically very much a Von Trier film, but for me it just doesn't have the magic of his other films. It honestly bored the heck out of me.


For sure. A filmmaker changes technically and as a person so much in the many years that he is creating films, so I think it's important to get at least a handful of the different perspectives he gets throughout a long career.
I'll warn you that you might be disappointed with Ozu though. I'm a huge fan of his, and he's super consistent in his output. His films don't differ very drastically, if at all.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Okay fair enough guys. As I said I'm still interested in more of his films, I heard a bit about Dogville that sounded interesting, and I remember Mark recommending The Kingdom before. I think Nymphomaniac just really irritated me and disappointing me that I didn't care for any of its characters', even the emotional Christian Slater scenes left me with a bad feeling.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Von Trier is very artistic in his cinema form. Daniel, I enjoyed "Medea". Perhaps you should give that a watch. "Mandalay" was a bit different to say the least. "Breaking the waves" was good as well as "Dogville". My personal favorite was "Antichrist" which was the first Von Trier I had seen.

I'm going to catch "Element of a crime" and "Europa" with my movie buddy who is more than happy to rewatch them with me.

I agree with Mark, Nymphomanic is his worst.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

I'll come back to this, since I only saw a few replies. I don't hate him, but I don't love him or his films, either. All his movies seem to hover around the 7 or 7.5 (good) mark for me. Someone earlier mentioned "trolling" and I kinda agree. For example, in "Nymphomaniac I" - I loved the conversations between the lead characters, but the "dark" stuff gets old. But, in every movie, there's always a few great lines..

I usually go in order, but sometimes it's just what is available. I might check out "Melancholia" since I'm interested in the topic, first-hand and detached.

Dogville - 7.5
Nymphomaniac - 7.5/10
Breaking the Waves - 7/10

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

I've only seen Anti Christ which I found pretty compelling but not a comfortable watch. I also didnt know he was Danish.

Re: Why do Many People Hate Lars Von Trier?
 

Wow, I found this old thread... I wonder how many seen "The House that Jack Built" and hated it?

I personally think its one of Von Trier's masterpieces.

Many. It's not a masterpiece, far from it, actually, and as a personal statement it's quite compelling but helluva trite. You know, it has those "torture porn moments" but for a reason, man, and you don't understand the movie! Lars talks to the audience, and fools them. He's low-key trolling, because he can't find enough sincerity and courage to do it in a straightforward fashion. Or maybe that's just the way he wants to do things. The film is very entertaining, tho.