Originally Posted by Yoda
I agree that they wouldn't have found each other so quickly, but it's difficult to show a passage of time without it being boring, or slowing things up in general. They would naturally gravitate towards each other, however, given that they'd both be walking towards the nearest Starfleet outpost, and both would've taken note of the big round cave.
All sensible explanations, but again, I think it's the writer's job to set things straight. The lack of explanation makes the event seem unlikely, and the script poorly written.
Originally Posted by Yoda
Ah, but Scotty didn't know. Spock knew, because he was from the future and knew about future transporting breakthroughs. All they needed to do was find a Startfleet outpost.
Well, Scotty admitted to not only thinking up the theory, but to being (we can infer) the only officer in Starfleet to have done so. Those are still incredibly lucky odds. (Admittedly, the writers do a decent job of defusing this issue by depicting it as an unstable, unproven, and dangerous theory - evidenced by Scotty's swim through the pipes. But you can still practically see Athena come down and hand Achilles the spear.)
Originally Posted by Yoda
Aye, but while plot holes are not always acceptable, plot gaps often can be. We're told as much as we need to know about red matter. Frankly, if they'd said much more, it could've easily brought to mind all the silly science-y talk that the rest of the franchise is so infamous for. I think they made a deliberate effort to keep that to a minimum. I would've liked a little more information about it, but I wouldn't call it sloppy writing; just a difference of opinion in regards to priorities. Some might think it's more important to explain what it is, and some might think it's more important to convey what it does and then get on with things. Both ideas certainly have merit.
Like I said, I think at the very least, you get the idea about what the stuff does. And for some people, that's all that's necessary. But since it became a fairly important component of the film, I thought that some additional attention should have been paid to it. I mean, the red matter might as well have been silly string. Or Cool Whip. Or toilet water. Without an explanation of what it is or where it came from, it's nothing more than a convenient plot device that keeps the writers from having to write. That's why I consider it sloppy writing.
Originally Posted by Yoda
I'm also inclined to give them an extra-long leash here, if only because they have to separate themselves from the franchise to this point, and doing away with (or cutting down on) the faux-scientific exposition stuff would seem to be a pretty important step in that direction.
I'm not so sure the token science "Trek talk" is such a bad thing. Surely, the volume needed to come down a bit for this film, but it has always been an integral part of the series. Although previous actors have joked about putting technical words together randomly, much of it was actually sensible (thanks in large part to the remarkable Ronald Moore). I understand that
Star Trek cannot subsist on its fans alone, but I'd rather not see Paramount change its winning formula entirely.
Star Trek has always been known for its stories, and this new franchise deserves solid narratives to go with its groundbreaking action.
Originally Posted by Yoda
That would only serve to illustrate just how massive his thirst for revenge is, then, wouldn't it?
Yeah, I just can't buy that. The old saying "time heals all wounds" can't be overlooked here. While I don't believe that Nero would really ever get over what happened to his homeworld, twenty-five years is more than enough time to weather his enthusiasm for vengeance. Not to mention, simply floating in space for that amount of time would give everyone an
extreme case of cabin fever. I'm actually more surprised that Nero never realized he's living in a time period where Romulus still exists. Surely, the doubt that Spock would never come, coupled with the teasing existence of their flourishing homeworld, would have simply grown too great.
Originally Posted by Yoda
Though I agree that he should've aged a bit...that was a little odd. Then again, as he's bald and everything, that removes many of the most obvious ways in which they'd have shown the passage of time. I don't know how Romulans age, though, either.
It's
Star Trek, so even if there's no canon rule about the way Romulans age, the current writers can just invent one. In the case of Nero and crew, I feel like they should have.
Originally Posted by Yoda
I will say that the complaint above, while understandable, would also apply to some great literature, like The Count of Monte Cristo. The difference is really not, in my mind, about whether or not someone could seek vengeance that long, but just in devoting the time to making us believe it a bit more. The forgettableness of Nero has far-reaching implications, I suppose.
Good point, but what makes
The Count of Monte Cristo acceptable is that we're privvy to Dantes' experiences during that time, and his near descent into madness. We're also privvy to his decision to act, to educate himself, and to occupy his time. Neither of these we see in Nero. (We can infer it, but again, a good story doesn't try to stand on the absence of plot as evidence for the existence of it, albeit unknown.) Also, Dantes doesn't have the option to leave his prison and go elsewhere, but Nero does. So the comparison doesn't entirely match up.
I'm really pretty tolerant of Nero because, with the advent of a new series, the chief characters were going to steal any villain's screentime anyway. That's just the truth of it. But I think simple re-writes and a slightly longer run time to accommodate more scenes with Nero might have helped alleviate the transparency of the character a little more.
Originally Posted by Yoda
Well, we see him stealing a car and driving it off a cliff, which is kind of a huge deal, given that he's like, 13 at the time. And then we get sorta-kinda picking a fight in a bar (not entirely, but he was being a smartass, obviously). Are you saying you just wanted more events from his childhood thrown into the mix?
I don't think he needed more scenes, but perhaps something more tangible infused in his character. Spock is depicted in his youth as quietly angry and having to cope with prejudice toward his heritage, and that adds some depth to his character throughout the film. Kirk, on the other hand, is depicted more as a smiling, skirt-chasing thrill seeker, which isn't very deep at all. I would have been alright with that, except that the film consistently refers back to his father's death in a way that suggests Kirk is (or should be) tortured by it. I like that depth, but it never really came out in his actions. To me, that's an example of telling, not showing.
Originally Posted by Yoda
Ah, see, but this is something that I found really interesting. I see what you're saying, but there's a subtext here that I'm becoming more and more convinced was deliberate: that while things CAN happen differently, and new timelines CAN be created, certain things are drawn to each other.
For example, when Spock Prime (love that name) and Kirk reach the outpost, and Spock Prime sees a young Scott there, he's intrigued. I think he says either "interesting" or "fascinating." He takes special note that, even in this new timeline, the crew is gravitating towards each other. I would not be surprised to see this sort of thing crop up again. Personally, I'm tickled by the idea that certain events and arrangements have a "pull" towards a certain result. It makes for an interesting mix of destiny and free will that runs throughout the entire film.
Yeah, I had this thought too, and I think it is quite an interesting (and potentially enriching) perspective. It reminds me of the kinds of philosophical observations Picard used to make about the universe, and all the ties that seem to bind. I do hope this is something Abrams and crew take more ownership of in the future.
That said, it seemed a little hokey that Spock Prime would see his mission as getting Kirk in command of the
Enterprise, simply because that was his place as prescribed by destiny. It was just a little too Hallmark for me, and unbefitting of a character who's always been so unfailingly dignified and logical. It seemed the writers were giddy at the idea of penning words for the legendary Leonard Nimoy Spock, that they reduced him to the "old friend" who comes in for spiritual support. Admittedly, Spock Prime's involvement would have had to be minimal anyway, lest he disrupt the sanctity of the timeline, but I feel like he was portrayed as much too sentimental.
Originally Posted by Yoda
Here's something that I find really interesting: that things like the above happen when Spock Prime intervenes. It's almost as if his presence in the timeline carries his timeline's facts over with him. IE: Spock Prime fiddling around in this new timeline is the catalyst for making certain parts of it more like his own, as if he brings it with him. Thus, he saves Kirk, leads him to Scotty, has the formula that gets them both onboard, convinces Kirk to become Captain of the Enterprise, and convinces both Kirk and Spock to work together. It makes sense to me that Spock Prime, being from this other timeline, would influence the new timeline in ways that make it more like his own.
Yeah, I can see that. :)
Originally Posted by Yoda
And, as you also astutely point out, there'd otherwise be no film. Even if you're not as satisfied by the above as I am, I think we at least have to forgive them a few events to bring the crew together in the first place, no?
Well, yeah, getting these characters together in the duration of one film eats time, that's true. I'm mostly forgiving in favor of being able to have the film in the first place. There are just a few issues, as I've pointed out, that could very well have been solved without much trouble. Even something that might have required some significant re-tooling (like much of Nero's character) is worth revising, because if it feels like it needs significant revision, then it's probably going to be problematic if you do nothing.
