The Detective Film as a Genre
 

The Detective Film as a Genre


The Detective Genre has been out of comission for way two long
only a few directors have taken the challenge and succeded in the past twenty-years. What come to my mind are films like Devil in the blue dress directed by Carl Franklin, Kill me again directed by John Dahl, Under Suspicion directed by Simon Moore and Twilight directed by Robert Benton and all were not giving the proper recognition to begin with. They were all done with low bugets and with the exception of Robert Benton were first or second time directors.

These directors had the guts or nothing to loose to make a film and genre that just isn't excepted to todays audiences.The last time a Detective film was thought as a great film was in the seventies films like Chinatown directed by Roman Polanski ,The Late Show directed by Benton ,Farewell ,My Lovely directed by Dick Richards.

these days the detective genre has been twisted and turn into cop suspencers or erotic thrillers that have way two much sex and violence and never follow the right presedures on how a detective film is susposed to be made "like" you only see what the detective sees. The killer is "not" so easily suspected and the all important "point-of-view" of the detective. Other such things as voice-over and snapy lines.

If you take Basic Instinct for an example there are things that the main character played by Michael Douglas knows that we the audience don't know and there's things that the audeince learns before him and things only we know plus the camera is always in front of him or behind him there are few too little point-of-view shot and no voice-over to speak of. All though it does have snapy lines and an alcholic cop for the main character.

As much as you don't want to believe that Sharon Stone is the killer it's not really hidden and the tricks they use to put you off are a bit to blatant for the audience to except but after saying all these things that the film did wrong I still think it's a great film and can be view 2nd 3rd and etc........... but it just isn't no Chinatown or for that matter a detective film.

Why do you guy think it not a popualar Genre to people anymore ?

what are your favorite Detective movie ?

1. Long Goodbye, The (1973)
It's Okay with me

2. Chinatown (1974)
Walsh: Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown.

3. Harper (1966)
Harper: Keep the change
Bartender: There is no change.
Harper: [pause] Keep it anyway.

4. Kiss Me Deadly (1955)
Blood red kisses! White hot thrills! Mickey Spillane's latest H-bomb!

5. Big Sleep, The (1946)
Vivian: You go too far, Marlowe.
Marlowe: Those are harsh words to throw at a man, especially when he's walking out of your bedroom.

6. Night Moves (1975)

7. Late Show, The (1977)

8. Kill Me Again (1989)

9. Shamus (1973)
Shamus is a pro! He never misses!

10. Hammett (1982)

(Other great Detective Movies)
Drowning Pool, The (1975), Lady in the Lake (1947)
Maltese Falcon, The (1941) ,Marlowe (1969)

Hm, you have a point. Se7en, though a very good film, fails a little on that front too, I think. Having said that, I hvae never seen a true detective movie.

I don't see how it fails at anything. Morgan Freeman plays the part of the detective set for retirement...but just can't stop his mind from working like a detective. Brad Pitt plays the detective that's fresh to the job; new insights, new blood, but not seasoned like his counterpart, Freeman. I thought this movie accoplished everything it set out to do, and failed at nothing.

It's not so much a detective movie in that they don't "solve the crime" really. Great movie, but not one I would characterize as being in the "detective" genre as it has been defined here.

What?! Are you kidding? They totally solve the crime. They put pieces of the puzzle together the Whole movie. Every "sin" murder, brings them closer to the killer. They finally are on the right track when they bust into his apartment. That was the whole draw to the movie...watching the detectives trying to "solve the crime".:rolleyes: :D

SPOILER!





But they don't solve the crime. Spacey just walks in and gives himself up. They were solving the crime, but it wasn't Freeman and Pitt who brought it to the endgame. It was the killer himself.

Would they have caught the bad guy even given more time? Perhaps. But they weren't given the opportunity, and therefore did not "solve the crime".

Re: The Detective Film as a Genre
 

Seven does have violence, but this is the nature of the killer they are dealing with. Only one of the crimes had a sexual theme, so sex is not an issue. There wasn't a voice over...and few snappy lines. I think it's a detective movie that fits L.B.Jefferies " good detective movie" formula. They DO solve the crime. At the end, Brad Pitt had a choice to end it or win it for the killer. That's a form of solving it...to me.

Sure, if you change the whole definition of "having solved the crime" then sure, they solved the crime.

I'm glad my post is getting some good disscusions but there's really only one problem with Seven and that is, they are Homicide Detectives working for the police and the goverment they get paid every second week on the dot. A Detective works for himself decides when he'll work and who he'll work for. Police have no real say no option in what job there going to do. So a Police Detective is different for a Detective.

Hmm, well I guess I'm just mucking with technicalities all over the damn place! Detectives...solving crimes...pff...what do I know?!

Detective movie I love...Laura.

so detective movies have all that room for slimy, immoral, self serving, private dicks who have to answer to no one...they just have to get the job done and collect their fee- BLOOD SIMPLE is my favorite. M. Emmet Walsh is so perfectly slimy. for anyone who's hasn't yet seen Blood Simple, you've gotta go rent it! :p

Ace Ventura, pet detective.

Seriously though, how about The Two Jakes. I wouldn't say it's a great movie but it's not bad. I guess it's the sequel to Chinatown so maybe it doesn't count. hehe

Or, if you live in Dallas, go see it on the big screen at the Angelika since it's playing there right now.

The Two Jakes is a Detective film totally and a Good one too although it's not as good as Chinatown still a good little movie that complements the Genre nicely.

Here's a couple more great Detective Movies that I love

The Adventure of Sherlock holmes: The Hounds of the Baskervilles (1939)

Murder on the Orient Express (1974)

Everybody Wins (1990)

Farewell, My Lovely (1975)

Lady in the Lake (1946)

Gotham (1988)

I, the Jury (1982)

Lady in Cement (1968)

They All Laughed (1981)

Under Suspicion (1992)

i remember really liking Gotham. i'll have to check it out again.
and Lady in the Lake is unique with it's subjective camera being marlowe's eyes as he narrates.
i don't remember Under Suspicion...sounds interesting.
i don't know why true detective films wouldn't be well received today...i think they'll have a resurgence after having been pushed aside by other genres and trends.

On that Under Suspicion one, do you mean the one with Gene Hackman set in Puerto Rico? I thought that the Freeman character was definitely a cop. Pretty good movie though, it had me fooled.

No I meant the one Directed By Simon Moore with Liam Neeson in it.

here check it out at IMDB

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0105691

It's pretty cool and it's one of the few Detective movies to be made within the last 20 or so years.

patti the subjective camera work was super cool you only get to see him when he looks in mirrors at himself. One of the few movies to use it throught-out the entire movie the only other one that I can think of is called 84C MoPic (1989) and it's a war movie quite good too.
________
Prilosec Lawsuites

This is old but interesting. I'll have to look for Lady in the Lake.

Laura (1944) ~ My favorite.
The Maltese Falcon (1941)
The Thin Man (1934)
Eyes of Laura Mars (1978)
A Shot in the Dark (1964)

Love it, love it, love it.... One of my favorite genres, hands down.

Chinatown
Kiss Me Deadly
Blade Runner
Laura
Batman (world's greatest detective, that guy)

BladeRunner and Laura feature policemen, not private dicks. Same with Clouseau.



I miss L.B. Jeffries. :(



Anyway, L.B. named just about all the great ones, but I'll order them by my own preference...

1. Chinatown
2. The Long Goodbye
3. The Maltese Falcon
4. Night Moves
5. The Thin Man
6. Kiss Me Deadly
7. The Big Sleep (1946)
8. Angel Heart
9. Dead Again
10. The Drowning Pool
11. The Late Show
12. Gumshoe (1971)

*also Shaft (1971), Harper, Twilight, The Two Jakes, Marlowe, Who Framed Roger Rabbit and The Big Empty (1997). Good premise but disappointing overall are The Big Fix, Zero Effect and Where's Marlowe?. The funniest ever made is Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid.


And on TV....

1. "The Rockford Files"
2. "Moonlighting"
3. "Peter Gunn"
4. "Johnny Staccato"
5. "Honey West"

'Tis a shame about the no policeman clause.
http://www.cgj.org/en/c/vol_10-4/title_01_4.jpg

How's about Rigby Reardon in Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid?

I mean, while we're on the topic of stretching things as far as they will go.

"Woof, Huberman, woof."

LA Confidential, kinda Usual Suspects. Detective as a genre is more linked to film noirs surely? Anyway, i agree there should be more, any neo-noirs recommnded?

L.A. Confidential = policemen
The Usual Suspects = criminals and policemen



And there are easily a dozen neo-noirs listed in this thread.

OK, OK but police, arent they called Detective Inspectors anyway, or is that just here in UK?
Private Investigators, ie Chinatown, that what you mean by detectives, care to clear up my mis-understanding

As was said in the original post and many that followed, we are talking about Private Detectives. Investigators who do not work for the govermnent or municipality but are hired by clients. Gumshoes, Private Dicks, Transom Peepers. Not Policemen of any kind.

How about Out of the Past?

Great Noir, one of the very best ever made. Mitchum is basically hired by Kirk Douglas to find Jane Greer, but he's not a detective. He's just a guy.

So in a Noir discussion, sure. In a thread about Private Detectives....not so much.

http://www.filmsite.org/posters/outo.jpg

Jeff Bailey (formerly Jeff Markham) was a private eye in his former life before he went in to hiding. When he was hired by Kirk Douglas he became a detective again.

True Grit was a good private eye movie. You could only see one of the Duke's eyes, the other one was kept in private by the badge.

Also The Cheap Detective

Re: The Detective Film as a Genre
 

Just saw The Long Goodbye...
Loved it..

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State of Play gets my vote, if it counts in this genre.

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Just saw Zero Effect.. it was nice.
nothing we haven't already seen before, but still entertaining.

http://moviesoftheday.com/upload/cov...ct-cover-3.jpg

Re: The Detective Film as a Genre
 

I LOVE detective movies. That's why I picked private I's as my last movie theme of the week selection :)

My favorites:

1. Harper
2. Eye of the Killer (After Alice)
3. Murder by Death
(loads of detectives :))
4. The Drowning Pool
5. The Pink Panther Strikes Again

Strangely though, I don't care much for film noir.

I have yet to see these..

Re: The Detective Film as a Genre
 

I just finished Twin Peaks Season 1.
I am loving this show.. This has to be the best TV Series I have ever involved myself in.

If Harper and The Drowning Pool were in black and white they would be film noir.

Re: The Detective Film as a Genre
 

You could say the same thing about most every detective movie.

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But do they have to be in B&W to be considered a Film Noir?

I thought Brick was considered a Film Noir as well, same goes for LA Confidential.

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Harper was quote a "new-type" detective. It was supposed to be a modernizing of the old film noir movies of the 40s. This is still being done. I think this is because it's such a strong storyline

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A few new things for Harper like an ex wife, but the plot was pretty much film noir. The novel it was based on by Ross MacDonald is very much Raymond Chandler-ish with a little more contemporary attitude.

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Have you read? I want to, but I've been having trouble finding it. I'm aware that it's under the name The Moving Target with Lew Archer as the character. Are you trying to understand why I like Harper and not film noir movies?

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I read The Underground Man, which turned out to be one of the last ones and the first where he received a lot of critical attention. Any well stocked library probably has some Lou Archers, particularly the late ones. Didn't the guy who wrote Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid write the screenplay? He put in some clever, witty dialogue. Ross MacDonald doesn't have much of a sense of humor. Apparently, his earliest novels are even closer to Chandler. I'm not sure If Moving Target was before or after his mature style.

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My local library isn't very well stocked. And yes, I believe the same screenwriter did both Harper and Butch Cassidy. I'm glad you told me because Harper's wit is one of my favorite parts naturally.

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SEVEn...damn good movie...but a bit slow movie...

I cannot imagine Ben Stiller is serious in this film. Is he really serious or just funny as usual?

Re: The Detective Film as a Genre
 

He's both serious and funny. He plays Dr. Watson to Pullman's Sherlock Holmes (in modern-day L.A.). It's definitely a comedy-drama, but at least it has some drama... :cool:

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I would recommend that movie... it's really nice..
& mark already put a good explanation...

I like Ben Stiller movies but I never knew about this movie. I add it to my Netflix list. Thanks, markf & genesis-pig.

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What are the recommended Mike Hammer movies??
I haven't seen any.

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There aren't that many. I guess you saw the TV series with Stacey Keach.

The absolute best one is Kiss Me Deadly directed by Robert Aldrich in the fifties.

Also watchable is Girl Hunters with Mickey Spillane himself playing Hammer.

I,the Jury doesn't quite work, which is why the hoped for series didn't come about. but it's okay.

I was talking about the 1982 I the Jury, forgot there was a little seen version from the fifties.

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Thanks, I just saw Kiss Me Deadly... Found it decent.

Haven't seen the Stacy Keach series, is it good?

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It's just so-so. There are really two series with Stacy Keach (I'm doing this from memory without looking it up so maybe I get it a little wrong. The first ran on CBS and then there was a syndicated version where I think he had a younger assistant (Keach was getting old). Never saw it, too old even for me, but there was also a series from the fifties with Darren McGavin which is probably better if only because it starred Darren McGavin.

It was MacDonald's first detective novel, Moving Target, back when he was writing as John MacDonald, his father's first and middle names. Later changed to Ross to avoid confusion with another John MacDonald, also a writer.

You're right--MacDonald wrote so much like Chandler, who was already an established author, that it pissed Chandler off. It took MacDonald a long time to get that first novel published as it was rejected by many publishers, including one who advised him to just chalk it off as a loss and write something else. He got better with time, but never in the same class as Chandler and Hammett.

As for the movie Paul Newman made under the title Harper, MacDonald's detective was Lew Archer, but they changed the character's and the movie's name to Harper because after Hud and The Hustler, Newman thought an H in the title was lucky for him. But I think he got over that after Harper and Hombre.

As I recall, Harper wasn't much of a hit at the time it was released. I've never been fond of it--the ending just seemed tacked on because everyone had run out of steam--or maybe they just ran out of time and money for making the movie.

(cop and 1/2 with bert reynolds and that little black boy not to sure of his name right off) LOL hope that one counts i kinda wanna watch it now... oh yea (the bone collector) too

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Cop & a half?? It has to be one of the worst films ever.

LOL.. yea I was just kidding, you didnt give your opinion on the second movie i listed?

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Honestly I saw Bone Collector ages ago, But I remember liking it.

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This was my favorite genre. Missing it a lot. I had been long time I guess that there had been no such release.

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Were any of the Father Brown movies any good?

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There were only two Father Brown movies and a TV series with not that many episodes from England. Kind of boring I thought, the second, a remake of the first starring Alec Guinness the better.

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Thank, will check that one out.

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Mostly because television rules the detective dramas, CSI, etc....in addition to all of the real detective programming...48 hours

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Michael Mann's "Heat" was a good movie, but I'm not sure if one would classify it as a classic detective movie.

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Crime fiction is my favourite book genre! I read mysteries and detective novels all the time.

My favourite movie in that area is:

http://thecia.com.au/reviews/k/image...5-poster-2.jpg

Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (2005)