View Full Version : A Friendly Wager
Alright, here's the deal: if George W. Bush wins the election tomorrow, OG- has to use an avatar of my choosing for the next week. If John Kerry wins, he gets to pick mine for the next week. We've agreed not to choose anything pornographic, sacreligious, or Canadian.
Also, $50 on the Packers.
You're gonna be wearing a dress, Susie.
Did I say "friendly" wager? Because I meant "searingly hateful." My bad.
I'd be bitter too if I could see my own demise creeping up on me like a fat man on a donut.
2wrongs
11-01-04, 11:05 PM
Prepare to lose Pete.
Loose what? A couple minutes of breathing normaly because I'm laughing too hard at Chris sporting an avatar of me sitting on his head? Because if so, I concur.
2wrongs
11-01-04, 11:08 PM
I love this thread more than life.
TheMatrix
11-01-04, 11:21 PM
this is kinda funny. i wonder who will win. my momney of course is on Bush even though I despise both of them. VOTE RALPH NADER!!!
HellboyUnleashed
11-01-04, 11:23 PM
Go Bush!!!!
Loose what? A couple minutes of breathing normaly because I'm laughing too hard at Chris sporting an avatar of me sitting on his head? Because if so, I concur. Dude, if you're sitting on my head, I'M the one who won't be breathing normally.
Dude, if you're sitting on my head, I'M the one who won't be breathing normally.
That's the point, dingus.
2wrongs
11-01-04, 11:29 PM
dingus???
:rotfl:
4 MORE YEARS!!
That's the point, dingus. How can that be the point? You said YOU would be the one who wouldn't be breathing normally.
Wait, what? Nevermind. I think I'm getting dumber just by talking about this. If I don't stop soon, I'll end up voting for Kerry tomorrow.
2wrongs
11-01-04, 11:44 PM
ew.
perish the thought.
darkhorse
11-02-04, 12:07 AM
Hmm... Kerry or Bush? Bush or Kerry? Tough call!
I'd say vote for Kerry--at least he's not Bush!
Which is saying a lot!
Other than that... it's up in the air!
All I can say is who needs four more years of war and inane rhetoric? That should be enough of an incentive for anyone to vote Kerry!
Anonymous Last
11-02-04, 12:30 AM
I meant to reply to this thread...really, I did!
We've agreed not to choose anything pornographic, sacreligious, or Canadian.
lmao..Canadian
lmao..Canadian
Beat me to it.
Tis all in good fun. :)http://www.movieforums.com/community/image.php?u=4126&dateline=1098593971
Henry The Kid
11-02-04, 01:35 AM
Michael Badnarik will shock the world with a come from behind victory. Florida will be removed from the Union; it will gradually become an island by erosion and old people. America will finally forgive Celine Dion, and Canada will be made into the 51st state, and honor which it has been desperate for for many years.
Who wants to bet me on it?
Michael Badnarik will shock the world with a come from behind victory. Florida will be removed from the Union; it will gradually become an island by erosion and old people. America will finally forgive Celine Dion, and Canada will be made into the 51st state, and honor which it has been desperate for for many years.
Who wants to bet me on it?
That's definately funny.
Alright, my final projection, which could be horribly wrong, even if Bush wins:
Bush 288, Kerry 250
Here's what I think the map will look like:
http://www.movieforums.com/prediction.gif
Key states: I think Bush'll take Florida, Ohio, and Wisconsin, though I'm least sure about that last one. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say Bush actually takes Hawaii, which is totally insane, but there you have it.
I think Kerry'll take Pennsylvania, Michigan, Minnesota, and Iowa, and probably New Mexico.
Popular vote...I'll go with about 52/47 Bush.
I won't be here to gloat (or whimper) until late, as I'm doing some live election night coverage for a local television station. Expect my bragging/concession after midnight.
this is kinda funny. i wonder who will win. my momney of course is on Bush even though I despise both of them. VOTE RALPH NADER!!!
How anyone could ever waste a vote on this guy, I don't know. Does he even know what party he is in yet? Certainly not the greens this time around, they have their man in Cobb.
Wait I'm green, no wait I know, I'll make up a party, and I like Bulldogs and Robins, so they can be my mascott!
My main platform issue can be...Standardized testing? Oh, ya, that is right at the top of the list in everyone's minds.
Party crasher go home!!
Although, if you head over to the Nader website, you can buy a DVD of Nader debating with a couple of puppets. Woah, clever little joke about the other candidates Ralph, but how about you try debating against real people!!
We clearly need more parties to be recognized, but this guy is not the one to bring it to a head...
Anonymous Last
11-02-04, 01:51 PM
Did you say puppets?
Interesting!
SamsoniteDelilah
11-02-04, 01:51 PM
So far... (http://www.electoral-vote.com/) it's looking like Yoda needs shoes to match his bag. I'm envisioning something in a delicate pink.
Nader is just stealing the votes from Kerry. If he was not in the darn election, then Kerry would get his votes...
chicagofrog
11-02-04, 01:54 PM
i even found an American national-socialist party on the net! but i guess those guys are like 27 is all... then again, now that's party diversity!
Anonymous Last
11-02-04, 01:57 PM
So far... (http://www.electoral-vote.com/) it's looking like Yoda needs shoes to match his bag. I'm envisioning something in a delicate pink.
Sounds like my get up....uh, what...wait, -I mean yeah shoes to match!
*walks out of thread slowly*
SamsoniteDelilah
11-02-04, 02:36 PM
Sounds like my get up....uh, what...wait, -I mean yeah shoes to match!
*walks out of thread slowly*
Delicate pink, eh? I'd have figured you for a vampy red.
So far... (http://www.electoral-vote.com/) it's looking like Yoda needs shoes to match his bag. I'm envisioning something in a delicate pink. Peter linked me to that, too. However, I've been visiting that site every single morning for (literally) weeks now, and it's been all over the place, even when public opinion didn't appear to be fluctuating much. Case in point: yesterday, they had Kerry at 290. Today, they have him deadlocked with Bush at around 260.
So, we shall see.
Anonymous Last
11-02-04, 02:50 PM
Delicate pink, eh? I'd have figured you for a vampy red.
Only when I'm trying to get my point across!
Peter linked me to that, too. However, I've been visiting that site every single morning for (literally) weeks now, and it's been all over the place, even when public opinion didn't appear to be fluctuating much. Case in point: yesterday, they had Kerry at 290. Today, they have him deadlocked with Bush at around 260.
So, we shall see.
Hey, they're painting Hawaii in Bushie pink at the moment. You should be pleased ;).
All I can say is who needs four more years of war and inane rhetoric? That should be enough of an incentive for anyone to vote Kerry!Yep you are right if Kerry is elected this will all just go ****poof**** away.
Heh.
Piddzilla
11-02-04, 04:27 PM
I just saw on the news that there were indications that the turnout in Ohio was as high as around 70%, which I predict will gain the democrats. So, Kerry wins Ohio and I also think he will get Alaska (based on Bush's environmental politics). That, presuming Yoda will be right otherwise, gives Kerry 273 and Bush 265.
I just saw on the news that there were indications that the turnout in Ohio was as high as around 70%, which I predict will gain the democrats. So, Kerry wins Ohio and I also think he will get Alaska (based on Bush's environmental politics). That, presuming Yoda will be right otherwise, gives Kerry 273 and Bush 265.Ohio will be within a few points, no matter who wins, so I don't think we can call it until tonight. The GOP has made major strides in its ground game/get out the vote effort, so while I agree that a high turnout favors the Democrats, I don't think it will do so to the extent it has in past elections.
As for Alaska...I don't think it'll even be close. A September poll had Bush up 27 points there, and I don't know of a single pollster who has it even close, let alone going for Kerry. It's a sure thing. I think the drilling issue has been vastly overblown.
Nader is just stealing the votes from Kerry. If he was not in the darn election, then Kerry would get his votes...
Well, he actually isn't. Aparently he only made it onto the ballot in...Florida.
I just voted and he was not on the Massachusetts ballot...
Just three people
Bush, Kerry, Badnarick
Henry The Kid
11-02-04, 04:39 PM
Well, he actually isn't. Aparently he only made it onto the ballot in...Florida.
I just voted and he was not on the Massachusetts ballot...
Just three people
Bush, Kerry, Badnarick
I voted a few weeks ago, but I coulda sworn that Cobb was on there.
Piddzilla
11-02-04, 04:45 PM
Ohio will be within a few points, no matter who wins, so I don't think we can call it until tonight. The GOP has made major strides in its ground game/get out the vote effort, so while I agree that a high turnout favors the Democrats, I don't think it will do so to the extent it has in past elections.
As for Alaska...I don't think it'll even be close. A September poll had Bush up 27 points there, and I don't know of a single pollster who has it even close, let alone going for Kerry. It's a sure thing. The drilling issue has been vastly overblown, and I'm confident the margin for Bush there will bear that out.
Allright, I didn't know Alaska was traditionally republican. But Ohio still goes to Kerry. :)
Allright, I didn't know Alaska was traditionally republican. But Ohio still goes to Kerry. :) Deal. :suspicious:
Henry The Kid
11-02-04, 05:01 PM
At the moment, it's looking good for Kerry. However, that's likely to hange because all the liberals don't have jobs and live off the government while the conservatives all work for a living and won't let voting get in the way of a hard day's work. However, I worry that the conservatives might drop all the guns they're always carrying around and shoot each other by accident on the way to the polls. Hee!
Anonymous Last
11-02-04, 05:09 PM
At the moment, it's looking good for Kerry. However, that's likely to hange because all the liberals don't have jobs and live off the government while the conservatives all work for a living and won't let voting get in the way of a hard day's work. However, I worry that the conservatives might drop all the guns they're always carrying around and shoot each other by accident on the way to the polls. Hee!
I thought that was only during a basketball game at that park. Someone always gets upset, drops the ball, pulls out a gun and accidently shoots an innocent toddler that was playing in a near by house.
They should teach these people how to shoot!
Henry The Kid
11-02-04, 05:12 PM
I thought that was only during a basketball game at that park. Someone always gets upset, drops the ball, pulls out a gun and accidently shoots an innocent toddler that was playing in a near by house.
They should teach these people how to shoot!
Seriously. How come no preisdent has run on a platform of "Gun Training for Inner-City Kids?"
FYI: thanks for the rep, Pid. :) If you (or anyone else) wants to make your own map, visit http://www.270towin.com. It's pretty fun, actually.
Anonymous Last
11-02-04, 05:19 PM
Seriously. How come no preisdent has run on a platform of "Gun Training for Inner-City Kids?"
They had this at the local Army Reserves when I was a kid. (12 & over)
One weekday and every Saturday. An instructor would train us and let us shoot on the range.
I don't know if they still have it.
Henry The Kid
11-02-04, 05:27 PM
They had this at the local Army Reserves when I was a kid. (12 & over)
One weekday and every Saturday. An instructor would train us and let us shoot on the range.
I don't know if they still have it.
Oh. There're army bases in the inner cities?
On the one hand, I think that's a pretty good idea. However, considering how resilient a lot of people are to those of us who aren't pro gun-control, there's not much point in advocating it.
Anonymous Last
11-02-04, 05:35 PM
Oh. There're army bases in the inner cities?
On the one hand, I think that's a pretty good idea. However, considering how resilient a lot of people are to those of us who aren't pro gun-control, there's not much point in advocating it.
When I was a kid we handled situations differently (with out the use of a fire arm) than some kids do now. We would have our fist fights and when it was all over in most situations that kid you just fought was now cool as hell with you. It didn't matter who won or who lost. There was still some respect. Now they have metal detectors in our public schools. Because some dumb ass kid wants to bring a gun to class, like it's show and tell.
SamsoniteDelilah
11-02-04, 05:44 PM
Allright, I didn't know Alaska was traditionally republican. But Ohio still goes to Kerry. :)
It better, or it'll be a bleak Christmas for my family back home! :mad:
;)
I voted a few weeks ago, but I coulda sworn that Cobb was on there.
Right
- I had forgotten the greens (not hard to do) ;)
Garrett
11-02-04, 06:30 PM
What state are you in, Henry?
Henry The Kid
11-02-04, 07:11 PM
Massachusetts
in the sheer spirit of the wager, and my boredom, i'll go with Yoda, and OG-, if you win, you can pick an avatar for me for a week, but then if you loose, you go with Yoda's selected avatar for 2 weeks... deal?
Henry The Kid
11-03-04, 02:08 AM
It's not technically over, but Bush is going to win.
It's not technically over, but Bush is going to win.
I thought it was up in the air like 20 mins ago, better go see what's up then.
Garrett
11-03-04, 06:20 AM
I thought it was up in the air like 20 mins ago, better go see what's up then.
It is up in the air... but I'd put my money on Bush too.
From what I've heard we're still waiting for Ohio.
Welp, choose your avatar Chris, for I have lost.
sunfrog
11-03-04, 03:02 PM
You and your kind should be imprisoned on a remote island Yoda! Grrr!! I'm mad! I hate my fellow man!
2wrongs
11-03-04, 06:18 PM
Welp, choose your avatar Chris, for I have lost.
:(
I feel sad for you. It sucks to have put so much hope in something and then watch it turn in defeat. I'm sorry you hate the outcome of this election and you won't see me rubbing it in anyone's face.
Welp, choose your avatar Chris, for I have lost. I'm not gonna hold you to it, man. You've been cool and gracious about it, so I'd feel like a bit of a dick if I did.
Anonymous Last
11-03-04, 06:21 PM
:(
I feel sad for you. It sucks to have put so much hope in something and then watch it turn in defeat. I'm sorry you hate the outcome of this election and you won't see me rubbing it in anyone's face.
The last time I rubbed something in someone's face...they tried to bite it.
Or they had big teeth.
Henry The Kid
11-03-04, 06:55 PM
Well, Canada isn't the 51st state...yet...
Well, Canada isn't the 51st state...yet...
Yo, Britland has so got first dibs on that position :rolleyes: (just give us the vote darnit, gi'us the vote ;)). Ah well, guess it's a kind of historical irony that we get to be a vassel state these days ;) :rolleyes:
I'm not gonna hold you to it, man. You've been cool and gracious about it, so I'd feel like a bit of a dick if I did.
It's up to you. I'm a man of my word and lost the bet, so if you want to I'm not gonna hold it against you.
I feel sad for you. It sucks to have put so much hope in something and then watch it turn in defeat.
What can I say, I'm a dreamer.
It sucks to have put so much hope in something and then watch it turn in defeat.
don't even get me started
HellboyUnleashed
11-03-04, 10:27 PM
HAHAHAHAHAAHA!!! OG- lost. thats funny.
Anonymous Last
11-03-04, 10:29 PM
"That's all over the second we ride up Troy's bucket."
***** happens. Apparently more often when Bush is president.
I'm trying to be optimistic, but it isn't easy.
HellboyUnleashed
11-03-04, 11:28 PM
hey whats wrong with Bush.
Eh, it isn't even worth getting into right now.
chicagofrog
11-04-04, 07:17 AM
to anybody who knows i was in Columbus, Ohio, in May this year...
NO, i DO NOT think it had any kind of influence on the votes! :(
to anybody who knows i was in Columbus, Ohio, in May this year...
NO, i DO NOT think it had any kind of influence on the votes! :(
:rotfl:
Because of you we have 4 more years of solid leadership....darn you all 2 heck!!!
TheMatrix
11-04-04, 11:49 PM
why hasnt his avatar changed yet?
Anonymous Last
11-04-04, 11:52 PM
why hasnt his avatar changed yet?
I'm not gonna hold you to it, man. You've been cool and gracious about it, so I'd feel like a bit of a dick if I did.
Chris hasn't chosen an avatar for me, if he does (at whatever point) I'll still use it for a week, tis all up to him.
chicagofrog
11-05-04, 07:18 AM
Because of you we have 4 more years of solid leadership....darn you all 2 heck!!!
i knew people would hold me guilty! :(
;)
Well, we've got just about all the states in now, so I guess it's safe to gloat a little about my specific predictions (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showpost.php?p=206486&postcount=23). The vote totals are still being updated, so it's not yet determined whether my 52-47 popular vote call will be dead-on, or 1 percentage point off (Bush is at 51.5% right now, I believe). In terms of the electoral college, I was 2 votes off (predicted: 288, actual: 286). I miscalled New Mexico, Hawaii, Wisconsin and Iowa.
So, yay.
One of the interesting things about the election is that it was relatively close. It wasn't as close, I suppose, as many people were expecting it to be, but historically incumbents usually win soundly, or are beaten soundly. In other words, the populace as a whole tends to make up their mind one way or the other at some point during the incumbent's first term. Not the case here...it's not really the first time it's happened, but it's certainly a rare thing. If nothing else, the last 4 years have turned a lot of conventional wisdom on its head. That should give us all some humility, I think.
Piddzilla
11-06-04, 05:33 AM
First, congrats on your accurate prediction, Yoda.
And, yes, I have thought about that too, about the close election considering the fact that it was a re-run for Bush. It shows that USA is more than anytime before a divided nation.
As someone who's actually studying sociology at the moment I find this very interesting. A lot of sociologists would (could? should?) describe this as another phenomenon of the failure of the modernity project. [Yeah, I know, it sounds boring but hear me out]. The modern world has developed mostly thanks to the industrialism and is ruled by money and rationalism. It's abstract and anonymous. The pre-modern world was much more ruled by values and feelings and it rested on the bonds between people and the solidarity within the group (within the village, town, family). Some philosophers or sociologists see nothing good in modernity; Karl Marx doomed it to hell and said it is just a necessary phase before communism. Other sociologists are quite optimistic about the modern world and also see the advantages of it: freedom for the individual, more choices, technical development etc. But everbody are critical too.
One of the biggest problems that sociologists are concerned with is the fact that although modernity brings people closer together, geographically speaking, it tends to alienate them from each other, emotionally speaking. Another thing that sociologists are concerned with is how the money culture controls everything in the modern big city. "Never do business with friends or enemies". It's good to be an anonymous stranger in the big city because that increases your chances of doing good business with people you have no feelings for.
The modern world is ruled or runned by a System and people's ability to themselves control this system for their own good benefit is the key to whether the modern project will be a success or a failure, and here's where the 2004 Election comes in.
As you might have noticed, Kerry dominated the areas in USA where the modern project has gone far (big cities, rationality, support of a strong system BUT demand for controlling that system), while Bush dominated the areas where there are obivous tensions between modernity and pre-modernity (rural America, small towns, morality, suspicion of a strong system, support of a strong single leader).
I think that those voting for Kerry have a strong will of participating in how things are being done because they have experienced how important it is in the modern world, where you're insignificant as an individual, to have some kind of cooperative system strongly influenced by the people. They see Bush as a threat to their way of coping with modern life.
I think those voting for Bush have a strong will of taking care of things themselves and they don't want any kind of system interferring in their lives. Even though they too live in a world affected by modernity they still believe that the individual, friends and family come before any cooperative system. They believe that only God and the individual itself will lead the way through life, and they don't need no system to control things. But they want a strong leader who takes care of things that's out of their reach, especially during wartime. They see Kerry and the Democrats as a threat to their way of coping with modern life.
The election proved which view was the dominating but it also proved how deeply divided America is. The biggest problem I have with Bush isn't that he is a bit pre-modern (and I am not saying that as a negative thing) but that I believe he fools those who don't want a strong system in that he tightens the system's grip around America much harder. I also believe that the politics he stands for give a lot of freedom for the individuals - as long as they share his moral values. To me that is the most scary part.
George W. Bush is a position where he can actually do more or less whatever he wants to do - he's the president and got the majority in the houses. But at the same time he's the leader of a split country, almost half the country didn't vote for him, which, as Yoda stated, is an unusual situation for a re-elected president.
It's interesting times...
Magnificent post Piddy, much food for thought. I would like to post your post on a private mail group I belong to for some friends of mine to read. I'd like to ask your permission to do that.
Also, Kudos to Yoda for his incredibly accurate predictions...
Piddzilla
11-07-04, 12:58 PM
Magnificent post Piddy, much food for thought. I would like to post your post on a private mail group I belong to for some friends of mine to read. I'd like to ask your permission to do that.
Also, Kudos to Yoda for his incredibly accurate predictions...
Thank you very much, Sedai! :)
And you are of course very welcome to post it for that private group. Let me know if it inspires to interesting discussions!
Piddzilla
11-08-04, 08:22 AM
Is there a good site where you can find exhausting statistics on the election turnout (and other stuff), both nationwide as well as state by state?
2wrongs
11-08-04, 04:30 PM
CNN.com
Welp, Chris decided to change it. I'm much hotter now.
Another moment of glory made bittersweet by the fact that I am as of yet unable to make out with myself.
John Kerry is there for you if you need to cry about it...
Is there a good site where you can find exhausting statistics on the election turnout (and other stuff), both nationwide as well as state by state?
PM Darkhorse he knows everything.
2wrongs
11-09-04, 11:16 AM
I love your new avatar OG. I didn't know you were...you know...
Piddzilla
11-09-04, 03:30 PM
aaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaaa... ****, that is just too ****ing funny!!!
I love the avatar!!!
undead_bunny
11-09-04, 06:19 PM
:rotfl: :laugh: :laugh:
I'm lovin the new avatar OG. :p
SamsoniteDelilah
11-09-04, 06:52 PM
Thank you very much, Sedai! :)
And you are of course very welcome to post it for that private group. Let me know if it inspires to interesting discussions!
I'd like your permission to reprint this as well, in my blog. This is really fascinating stuff, Pidzilla. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
Piddzilla
11-10-04, 05:02 AM
I'd like your permission to reprint this as well, in my blog. This is really fascinating stuff, Pidzilla. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
I'm glad you think so.
I had my nose in the books yesterday as well and it always made me write another post. Apparently some theorists view Kennedy and Johnson as typcial examples of modern era presidents, while Reagan is supposed to be the typical postmodern president. :eek: :D
Let me know if you'd like another essay on the topic. :bored:
...and sure you have my permission, Sammy.
2wrongs
11-10-04, 11:51 AM
The election proved which view was the dominating but it also proved how deeply divided America is. The biggest problem I have with Bush isn't that he is a bit pre-modern (and I am not saying that as a negative thing) but that I believe he fools those who don't want a strong system in that he tightens the system's grip around America much harder. I also believe that the politics he stands for give a lot of freedom for the individuals - as long as they share his moral values. To me that is the most scary part.
That was a good read, Pid. I borrow from Cal Thomas:
The left has lost. The 60's are over. A majority of the public is tired of being forced to to accept every ideology, sexual depravity, and secular idea the left wishes to force down their throats. The election shows they have pushed back. Gary Wills said:
"Can a people that believes more in the Virgin Birth than evolution still be called an enlightened nation?"
Maybe so if you consider what a higher and really intelligent authority says: " The fool has said in his heart, There is no God."Psalm 14:1)
Cal also says:
"Several publications printed a remarkable map that breaks down the nation county by county. It shows an enormous sea of red with little patches of blue. If you study the map, you would have to conclude that the nation is becoming more united rather than the hype that it is divided; it is slowly becoming more conservative."
I think the sea of red may seem daunting at first, but then take a look at a map that, instead of just giving a state to either party based on who took the lead, actually takes the color to a vote-by-vote level. The Sea of red quickly turns to a gentle purple:
http://www.boingboing.net/images/Purple-USA.jpg
You can read more about it here (http://www.boingboing.net/2004/11/03/purple_haze.html).
I think he puts it best with this simple line, "Population difference is slight, land area difference is huge."
chicagofrog
11-10-04, 12:52 PM
compare! only ONE solution!!!!!!!!!
http://www.andreaharner.com/archives/UnitedStatesnewmap.jpg
or an independent West Coast + an independent North-East.
Henry The Kid
11-10-04, 01:08 PM
That was a good read, Pid. I borrow from Cal Thomas:
The left has lost. The 60's are over. A majority of the public is tired of being forced to to accept every ideology, sexual depravity, and secular idea the left wishes to force down their throats. The election shows they have pushed back. Gary Wills said:
"Can a people that believes more in the Virgin Birth than evolution still be called an enlightened nation?"
Maybe so if you consider what a higher and really intelligent authority says: " The fool has said in his heart, There is no God."Psalm 14:1)
Cal also says:
"Several publications printed a remarkable map that breaks down the nation county by county. It shows an enormous sea of red with little patches of blue. If you study the map, you would have to conclude that the nation is becoming more united rather than the hype that it is divided; it is slowly becoming more conservative."
Those quotes are, of course, more than slightly misleading.
chicagofrog
11-10-04, 01:22 PM
The left has lost. The 60's are over. A majority of the public is tired of being forced to to accept every ideology, sexual depravity, and secular idea the left wishes to force down their throats. The election shows they have pushed back.
the problem is considering a better thing not to *discuss* with "every ideology" and viewing any other opinion and weltanschauung as "sexually depraved"... :(
but anyways, Bush or Kerry... as long as there's no Pro-Palestinian American president, US government will be what it is. Pro-colonialism.
Charismasloverno5
11-10-04, 01:22 PM
You Think!
Henry The Kid
11-10-04, 01:41 PM
Another point yet to consider in reply to the "conservatizing of America" is that Kerry aquired almost 50% of the vote as someone who is quite, quite far to the left of the spectrum(relatively speaking).
I think, if anything, America is going to head towards a classical liberalism (better known as libertarianism in modern times) as we progress. Although a full change over is most likely naive, I think this is the most likely trend as we become wealthier and start to realize the consequences of our overly active foreign policy. I have difficulty imagining ever a full swing to one particular ideology, especially one as limiting as conservativism. A major shift will begin to occur in the political parties; the republicans have already adopted what was once more liberal philosophy with gigantic spending.
I wouldn't put much hope in a "conservative" or a "liberal" America. It will never happen. I live in a large city, and the hatred for Bush is unmatched among the older crowd(and hilariously retarded among the college crowd, a crowd to which I unfortunately belong). I can see a lot of red on the map, yet what does that even prove? That a lot of land area has Bush supporters? Sorry, but I can't fathom seeing how that points to America becoming more conservative. For pure raw votes, America is as divided as ever. And no talk on either side will change that fact.
Besides, would you really want a country where everyone agreed all the time? It'd be like Canada. Ugh.
So, in conclusion, I <3 infant consumption.
2wrongs
11-10-04, 04:05 PM
So, in conclusion, I <3 infant consumption.
Ya know, I was really into the points you were making until your last comment. I'm sure you were just making a crude joke but the bottom line is: it was crude.
I fail to see the point in making an argument if all you're going to do is turn people off. I won't even respond to what you said based on the assumption, you don't care.
Anonymous Last
11-10-04, 04:18 PM
Ya know, I was really into the points you were making until your last comment. I'm sure you were just making a crude joke but the bottom line is: it was crude.
I fail to see the point in making an argument if all you're going to do is turn people off. I won't even respond to what you said based on the assumption, you don't care.
No, I think it's a joke...
It's been his running gag and hopefully not his fetish.
Pete's right: the red/blue map is misleading. The map he posted is more accurate. Simplification can be quite tempting.
compare! only ONE solution!!!!!!!!!
http://www.andreaharner.com/archives/UnitedStatesnewmap.jpg
or an independent West Coast + an independent North-East. Not to nitpick (because that map's pretty damn funny, truth be told), but Jesus freaks played a much smaller role in the election than many have claimed. The conventional wisdom immediately after the election that was that Evangelicals and other religously-minded people had handed Bush a second term, but that rationalization has been pretty much torn apart since. I can link you up to some articles if you're interested.
2wrongs
11-10-04, 04:21 PM
I'm interested. Post them here though so that others may look...
There were several pieces, but for whatever reason I can't remember where to find them. Here's one, though, from The New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/06/opinion/06brooks.html?hp&oref=regi) (I've bolded the most relevant passages):
The Values-Vote Myth
By DAVID BROOKS
http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/misc/spacer.gif
Published: November 6, 2004
Every election year, we in the commentariat come up with a story line to explain the result, and the story line has to have two features. First, it has to be completely wrong. Second, it has to reassure liberals that they are morally superior to the people who just defeated them. In past years, the story line has involved Angry White Males, or Willie Horton-bashing racists. This year, the official story is that throngs of homophobic, Red America values-voters surged to the polls to put George Bush over the top.
This theory certainly flatters liberals, and it is certainly wrong.
Here are the facts. As Andrew Kohut of the Pew Research Center points out, there was no disproportionate surge in the evangelical vote this year. Evangelicals made up the same share of the electorate this year as they did in 2000. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who are pro-life. Sixteen percent of voters said abortions should be illegal in all circumstances. There was no increase in the percentage of voters who say they pray daily.
It's true that Bush did get a few more evangelicals to vote Republican, but Kohut, whose final poll nailed the election result dead-on, reminds us that public opinion on gay issues over all has been moving leftward over the years. Majorities oppose gay marriage, but in the exit polls Tuesday, 25 percent of the voters supported gay marriage and 35 percent of voters supported civil unions. There is a big middle on gay rights issues, as there is on most social issues.
Much of the misinterpretation of this election derives from a poorly worded question in the exit polls. When asked about the issue that most influenced their vote, voters were given the option of saying "moral values." But that phrase can mean anything - or nothing. Who doesn't vote on moral values? If you ask an inept question, you get a misleading result.
The reality is that this was a broad victory for the president. Bush did better this year than he did in 2000 in 45 out of the 50 states. He did better in New York, Connecticut and, amazingly, Massachusetts. That's hardly the Bible Belt. Bush, on the other hand, did not gain significantly in the 11 states with gay marriage referendums.
He won because 53 percent of voters approved of his performance as president. Fifty-eight percent of them trust Bush to fight terrorism. They had roughly equal confidence in Bush and Kerry to handle the economy. Most approved of the decision to go to war in Iraq. Most see it as part of the war on terror.
The fact is that if you think we are safer now, you probably voted for Bush. If you think we are less safe, you probably voted for Kerry. That's policy, not fundamentalism. The upsurge in voters was an upsurge of people with conservative policy views, whether they are religious or not.
The red and blue maps that have been popping up in the papers again this week are certainly striking, but they conceal as much as they reveal. I've spent the past four years traveling to 36 states and writing millions of words trying to understand this values divide, and I can tell you there is no one explanation. It's ridiculous to say, as some liberals have this week, that we are perpetually refighting the Scopes trial, with the metro forces of enlightenment and reason arrayed against the retro forces of dogma and reaction.
In the first place, there is an immense diversity of opinion within regions, towns and families. Second, the values divide is a complex layering of conflicting views about faith, leadership, individualism, American exceptionalism, suburbia, Wal-Mart, decorum, economic opportunity, natural law, manliness, bourgeois virtues and a zillion other issues.
But the same insularity that caused many liberals to lose touch with the rest of the country now causes them to simplify, misunderstand and condescend to the people who voted for Bush. If you want to understand why Democrats keep losing elections, just listen to some coastal and university town liberals talk about how conformist and intolerant people in Red America are. It makes you wonder: why is it that people who are completely closed-minded talk endlessly about how open-minded they are?
What we are seeing is a diverse but stable Republican coalition gradually eclipsing a diverse and stable Democratic coalition. Social issues are important, but they don't come close to telling the whole story. Some of the liberal reaction reminds me of a phrase I came across recently: The rage of the drowning man. There was a better one that I can't seem to find; it was a little heavier on numbers. From what I read, Bush saw minimal gains with religious voters, but significant gains among those who rarely or never attended religious services. I think it's little more than a comforting rationalization to take the view that Bush won because Christians turned out in drove, rather than because of the broad increase in support he achieved.
Henry The Kid
11-10-04, 04:51 PM
Ya know, I was really into the points you were making until your last comment. I'm sure you were just making a crude joke but the bottom line is: it was crude.
I fail to see the point in making an argument if all you're going to do is turn people off. I won't even respond to what you said based on the assumption, you don't care.
I'm just attempting to keep the discussion a bit light-hearted. No point in getting all worked up over a debate in an internet form.
SamsoniteDelilah
11-10-04, 04:53 PM
That's only one side of it, Yoda.
Both parties saw significant increases in support.
And the "myth" that article is trying so hard to debunk is the results of exit polls. The poll results don't claim it's only church-goers who voted on "moral" grounds. Just that that is the reason they gave for their vote.
2wrongs
11-10-04, 05:18 PM
I'm just attempting to keep the discussion a bit light-hearted. No point in getting all worked up over a debate in an internet form.
Light-hearted.
I'd hate to have you around at a party:
"Hey guys, wanna watch me cut my finger off? Doesn't that sound jovial? I eat babies too..."
I'm not worked up. I'm drinkin' a Pepsi and watching the rain out my window...
I actually gave Minion rep points for the baby eating comment...
I thought it was perfectly jovial.
Anonymous Last
11-10-04, 05:31 PM
Light-hearted.
I'd hate to have you around at a party:
"Hey guys, wanna watch me cut my finger off? Doesn't that sound jovial? I eat babies too..."
I'm not worked up. I'm drinkin' a Pepsi and watching the rain out my window...
Would that person eat the finger?
Just kidding, love you!
*runs away with the finger*
That's only one side of it, Yoda.
Both parties saw significant increases in support.
And the "myth" that article is trying so hard to debunk is the results of exit polls. The poll results don't claim it's only church-goers who voted on "moral" grounds. Just that that is the reason they gave for their vote.I'm not sure I follow your point, exactly. The myth I was referring to was that devout Christians are what swung the election for Bush. I mentioned this in response to chicagofrog, who posted the "Jesusland" image.
Now, if you're claiming that it was moral concerns among religious and non-religious voters alike which swung the election, I'd say that the evidence is less conclusive, but still leans against it. For one, though much ado has been made of the fact that "moral values" was the top concern among those polled, it didn't win by much. It was chosen by a scant 22% of the respondents...the other two major issues (the economy and terrorism), came in at 20% and 19%, respectively. In other words, it was effectively split across the three.
Also, I don't have numbers in front of me on this, but many have pointed out that "moral values" is extremely vague, and that past presidential exit polls which broke issues down more specifically (abortion, gay marriage, school prayer, etc) saw higher levels of concern with those issues when consolidated.
Henry The Kid
11-10-04, 05:35 PM
Light-hearted.
I'd hate to have you around at a party:
"Hey guys, wanna watch me cut my finger off? Doesn't that sound jovial? I eat babies too..."
I'm not worked up. I'm drinkin' a Pepsi and watching the rain out my window...
Don't be silly.
I club baby seals at parties.
2wrongs
11-10-04, 05:35 PM
I actually gave Minion rep points for the baby eating comment...
I thought it was perfectly jovial.I'll consider the source. :rolleyes:
Thanks Anon...you're the best at keeping things light-hearted. Those other fools fall short of your jovial splendor! :yup:
Anonymous Last
11-10-04, 05:47 PM
I'll consider the source. :rolleyes:
Thanks Anon...you're the best at keeping things light-hearted. Those other fools fall short of your jovial splendor! :yup:
I think that means I have a good size.
2wrongs
11-10-04, 05:51 PM
ew.
:blush:
My avatar is interested...
2wrongs
11-10-04, 05:54 PM
again, ew.
Anonymous Last
11-10-04, 06:00 PM
My avatar is interested...
Only 49% of your avatar is interested. I'm looking for a little bit more in an avatar though.
Now ladies and gents...I'll play pop goes the weasel (3rd Bass version) on the piano with my hands under my arm pits, naked!
Piddzilla
11-10-04, 06:07 PM
Only 49% of your avatar is interested. I'm looking for a little bit more in an avatar though.
Now ladies and gents...I'll play pop goes the weasel (3rd Bass version) on the piano with my hands under my arm pits, naked!
Ah good old 3rd Base. I have that album...
SamsoniteDelilah
11-10-04, 06:10 PM
But how, if your hands... are... :idea: :eek:
I couldn't take that avatar anymore, just didn't feel like me. So I broke the bet (was supposed to wear it for a week) and changed it back. I'm a quitter.
2wrongs
11-11-04, 12:35 PM
cheater.
Don't worry, OG-
We love you anyways.
Equilibrium
11-11-04, 01:30 PM
Damn, and I was just starting to associate that avatar with you.
chicagofrog
11-11-04, 01:33 PM
Damn, and I was just starting to associate that avatar with you.
we all did
Anonymous Last
11-11-04, 01:35 PM
Not me. I like the afro one.
2wrongs
11-11-04, 01:42 PM
I like the fro one as well...so much more...him. Because it IS him. *sigh*
As you were people!
Anonymous Last
11-11-04, 01:49 PM
Someone should edit a hair pick in his fro.
http://www.visimation.com/images/household-shapes/shapes/hair-pick-10.gif
Hey I forgot what this avie looked like, anyone have it saved?
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