View Full Version : Vote on the next countdown (Oct. 2023)
Okay, so usually we alternate (though it's just custom, not a rule) between some kind of genre list and some kind of time-based or decade-centric list. But we did all the decades, and we even did a 2000s refresh not too long ago, so it probably makes sense to do another genre list. Genre, mind you, remains a catch-all term that really just means "anything not time-based."
War won the last vote (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=67717), but Noir and Musicals were tied at 2nd, though admittedly a far way back. There are also some odd (but interesting!) alternatives we've been discussing, and this kind of in-between phase before we think about refreshing other decade lists, might be an ideal time to try them. I'll steal from Citizen Rules to describe them:
Underseen Movies
....I know that this would be tricky to work, I'd almost love to see something like "Underseen Gems" where the films nominated would have to have fewer than 5000 ratings on IMDb or something. One of the best things about the lists is getting recommendations from them, so some sort of list that breaks away from the stuff you tend to see a lot.
Films not on previous list
....the idea tickles me for a few reasons:
1) It'd be a list with TONS of films people haven't heard of, so it'd be great for discovery.
2) It'd almost feel like a game, finding films that haven't shown up before. It'd be interactive and creative in a way the other lists haven't been, to my mind.
In short, it just sounds fun to me, and it'd probably be the weirdest and least predictable list we've done, so curiosity alone makes me like the idea.
Personally, I really like this last idea. It would be a truly unpredictable list and I could probably build the check for existing lists right into the ballot software so that submitting would be relatively easy.
What's everyone think? REMINDER: please vote for all you find acceptable/would participate in, and not just you favorite! :)
John Dumbear
10-10-23, 01:08 PM
How about "Films About People Held Against Their Will"? In meaning, prison, kidnapped, held hostage, POW, etc...
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 01:16 PM
What the hell...I'll volunteer to host a Noir Countdown:eek: I want it down right if we do one and the only way I can see is this:
First We have two voting ballots, one ballot is for noirs from the 1940s-1950s. The second ballot is for neo noirs from 1960 to current. IMDB movie page is used to qualify the movies, if the tag 'noir' or 'neo-noir' occurs anywhere on the movie page then that movie qualifies. People can send both ballots or just one of them.
Second The two ballots are combined into one Noir countdown consisting of 50 classic era noirs and 50 neo noirs. However there's only one countdown presentation and each day a movie is revealed from each of the two ballot tabulations (one classic noir movie per day and one neo noir movie per day).
Third When the time comes for Yoda to add the countdown list to MoFo there would be a Top 50 Classic Noir list and a Top 50 Neo Noir list.
*This allows classic noir fans to have a focused list and allows fans of newer neo noir to have a list as well, we all get to have our cake! It doesn't take any more time to do this and there's still only one countdown being done.
***If we do this I'd be happy to share hosting duties and let someone else do the proto noir, I'm interested in the classic noir part.
Wyldesyde19
10-10-23, 01:23 PM
If we have a host for Noir, that gets my vote.
I would also like to revisit the idea of redoing the 90’s since it’s been over 10 years. A refresh wouldn’t be such a bad idea, especially with the new voters a decade after the initial countdown.
rauldc14
10-10-23, 01:25 PM
I'm against that noir idea, so I'll wait to vote
mrblond
10-10-23, 01:25 PM
Films not on previous list
Personally, I really like this last idea. It would be a truly unpredictable list and I could probably build the check for existing lists right into the ballot software so that submitting would be relatively easy.
What's everyone think? REMINDER: please vote for all you find acceptable/would participate in, and not just you favorite! :)
At first, I liked Films not on previous list but I think one more criteria should be applied.
For example: Films of the 2000's not on previous lists
....or Films not on previous lists rated 7.5+ on IMDB ...
rauldc14
10-10-23, 01:29 PM
Brave Little Toaster #1 for film not on any list
John Dumbear
10-10-23, 01:40 PM
I would also like to revisit the idea of redoing the 90’s since it’s been over 10 years. A refresh wouldn’t be such a bad idea, especially with the new voters a decade after the initial countdown.
There's a whole bunch of Corrie refugees that have missed these earlier decade countdowns.
At first, I liked Films not on previous list but I think one more criteria should be applied.
For example: Films of the 2000's not on previous lists
I think it's a pretty substantial restriction by itself, but I'm open to all of that.
As for the other stuff using IMDB ratings, intriguing, but also something that changes over time. There'd be some tricky decisions about how and when to audit that, since those numbers would obviously change during the ballot period itself, and I have no easy way to check those, which means the curator would have to verify every single one manually, which might be a dealbreaker all by itself if we don't find a semi-automated solution.
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 01:51 PM
Any countdown idea has it's pros and cons...I remember when it was announced we were doing a war countdown and some people said they wouldn't participate...yet the countdown was successful.
Some pros and cons:
Films not on previous lists countdown...
Pro: It would be all films that would make the countdown for the first time, which keeps it fresh.
Con: It could be viewed as movies #101-201 that didn't make the Top 100 Refresh countdown.
Underseen films...
Pro: Interesting, a list of great but underseen films...a connoisseurs countdown.
Con: Might not have much participation as people get frustrated that their favorite films don't meet the underseen criteria.
Musicals...
Pro: Fairly all inclusive depending on the criteria for what is and isn't a musical.
Con: Some people don't like musicals, oh well you can't please everyone.
Noir...
Pro: You already have a volunteer to host and with the first time ever duel ballots (one for classic noir and one for proto noir which is like what many crime films are now)...a lot of people can participate and we can create two different and well targeted noir list for the MoFo list section.
Con: More work for Yoda! But he already said he would do it in a past countdown discussion thread:p
Some Decades Refresh...
Pro: Broad participation as it appeals to a wide audience.
Con: Might feel like doing a re-run, once we start repeating and the freshness can go out of the countdowns and participation drop off.
Other (specify below)...
Pro: Maybe someone can hit upon a really cool and unique idea that we haven't done yet.
Con: Can't think of any cons unless no one bothers to brainstorm and kick out some countdown ideas.
I would love to see a Noir countdown, but I'm up for other stuff too. I voted Noir, Musicals, Underseen. I think the latter could be an interesting one, and I don't think it would be that hard to put on the defining criteria.
Noir always seems to start pretty strong and slowly lose steam. Gotta happen eventually…I think.
John W Constantine
10-10-23, 03:04 PM
How about "Films About People Held Against Their Will"? In meaning, prison, kidnapped, held hostage, POW, etc...
Kinky.
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 03:12 PM
..Underseen. I think the latter could be an interesting one, and I don't think it would be that hard to put on the defining criteria.I think Underseen is doable too. We'd just have to adjust the number of IMDB votes so that the countdown reflected mostly underseen films yet didn't exclude everything.
"Underseen Gems" where the films nominated would have to have fewer than 5000 ratings on IMDb or something.
I checked some of my favorite Underseen films on IMDB to see how many votes they have? Maybe some of us could do that too? That way we could see if a Underseen countdown is feasible? This is what I got just off the top of my head.
Miracle Mile (1988) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097889/) 12k votes
Cherry 2000 (1987) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092746/) 10k votes
Fat City (1972) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068575/) 10k votes
Caged (1950) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042296/) 4.4k votes
American Movie (1999) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/) 19k votes
Sundays and Cybele (1962) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055910/) 4.7k votes
Meek's Cutoff (2010) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1518812/) 15k votes
The Big Knife (1955) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047880/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) 4k votes
*yes I realize not all of those would be considered underseen films but I included them to show how their vote numbers appeared.
Holden Pike
10-10-23, 03:12 PM
Because the decade did so well on the larger list and it seems to hit the demographics/taste of the site well, I nominate Top 100 Comedies of the 1980s.
Mr Minio
10-10-23, 03:30 PM
Underseen movies but make it below 50 ratings on IMDb.
Looks like I could probably get a list together for under seen but two things while looking at those movies come quickly to mind. Fair to point out these things have already been mentioned too. 1) Are they under seen by mofo? Probably not, definitely not in most cases because I found them because of mofo. 2) How in the world will these movies get multiple votes to create consensus.
Serious apologies to anyone who likes or suggested it, but I really dislike this idea. I would probably participate, because I have in every list since being here. Saying it would be half hearted participation would be very generous.
Underseen movies but make it below 50 ratings on IMDb.
Sounds like a blast. Just start a reasons I am so much cooler than you thread.
I think Underseen is doable too. We'd just have to adjust the number of IMDB votes so that the countdown reflected mostly underseen films yet didn't exclude everything.
I checked some of my favorite Underseen films on IMDB to see how many votes they have? Maybe some of us could do that too? That way we could see if a Underseen countdown is feasible? This is what I got just off the top of my head.
Miracle Mile (1988) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097889/) 12k votes
Cherry 2000 (1987) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092746/) 10k votes
Fat City (1972) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068575/) 10k votes
Caged (1950) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042296/) 4.4k votes
American Movie (1999) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/) 19k votes
Sundays and Cybele (1962) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055910/) 4.7k votes
Meek's Cutoff (2010) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1518812/) 15k votes
The Big Knife (1955) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047880/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) 4k votes
*yes I realize not all of those would be considered underseen films but I included them to show how their vote numbers appeared.
I think I mentioned this before when this idea was first brought up, but I've done two "Hidden Loot" episodes on my podcast so far where me and a guest present a batch of five little known or underseen films, and we start by settling on a loose criteria of less than 20,000 views on IMDb. I think between 50K and 20K is a good threshold for that (for perspective, Titanic has 1.2M and The Avengers has 1.4M). We could set a similar threshold for Letterboxd, and it wouldn't be that hard for people to check, just like they did for the "War" tag.
Mr Minio
10-10-23, 03:47 PM
Sounds like a blast. Just start a reasons I am so much cooler than you thread. https://i.imgur.com/Ec8Rvjg.png
Frightened Inmate No. 2
10-10-23, 03:58 PM
i’m in favor of a 90s redo personally, as i think it would be drastically different from last time. speaking for myself, i would be surprised if my list today has more than five films in common with the list i made back then, and that’s before you factor in the dozens of new members who weren’t around last time. i also just like the genre->decade rotation we’re on, and don’t feel like having the pesky genre eligibility arguments again so soon after the war countdown.
also a huge fan of the not-on-previous-lists idea, although my preference would be to wait until after the 90s one. these are the only two that interest me at the moment, but i will of course participate in whatever the group decides.
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 04:08 PM
Looks like I could probably get a list together for under seen but two things while looking at those movies come quickly to mind. Fair to point out these things have already been mentioned too.
Serious apologies to anyone who likes or suggested it, but I really dislike this idea. I would probably participate, because I have in every list since being here. Saying it would be half hearted participation would be very generous.Good post, because you're thinking about the variables and parameters, which we should being do more of. It'll help to make better countdowns now and in the future.
1) Are they under seen by mofo? Probably not, definitely not in most cases because I found them because of mofo. *I'm guessing 'underseen' would be up to the individual.
2) How in the world will these movies get multiple votes to create consensus.I'm also guessing for a consensus only a small number of people would have to vote for it, meaning any of my films won't make an underseen countdown, unless you all love this underseen gem (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043397/).
*I would participate in any countdown, so far the Western and War countdowns have been my favorite.
so far the Western and War countdowns have been my favorite.
Western countdown was fantastic, really wish I had done my homework for that one though. Sometimes when you have a nice list of faves already it keeps you from digging deeper.
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 04:23 PM
Western countdown was fantastic, really wish I had done my homework for that one though. Sometimes when you have a nice list of faves already it keeps you from digging deeper.I binged watched westerns all through the pre countdown thread and during the countdown too. I must have seen hundreds of westerns before I finally got unto another movie watching theme.
2) How in the world will these movies get multiple votes to create consensus.
I think this is a very real concern. There's the possibility that we will end up with hundreds of films with 1 vote.
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 04:34 PM
I think this is a very real concern. There's the possibility that we will end up with hundreds of films with 1 vote.Would that be a bad thing? Seems like it would be a fun countdown as there would be lots of surprises and not the same predictable movies.
*BTW, I'm not pro Underseen countdowns, just trying to keep the convo going🙂
rauldc14
10-10-23, 04:47 PM
Because the decade did so well on the larger list and it seems to hit the demographics/taste of the site well, I nominate Top 100 Comedies of the 1980s.
Make it 80s/90s and I'm down
Miss Vicky
10-10-23, 04:49 PM
I’m not super keen on any of the options listed, especially not if Noir is done as two separate lists, but I would probably participate in any of them - though perhaps not with a full ballot.
That said, what I would like to see is a refresh of the Animation Countdown. 2024 marks ten years since the original and lots of animations have been released in that time. I would also be down to host it again.
Wyldesyde19
10-10-23, 04:55 PM
I’m not super keen on any of the options listed, especially not if Noir is done as two separate lists, but I would probably participate in any of them - though perhaps not with a full ballot.
That said, what I would like to see is a refresh of the Animation Countdown. 2024 marks ten years since the original and lots of animations have been released in that time. I would also be down to host it again.
Yeah, there are plenty of lists that could use an update, such as animation and 90’s.
Right now Noir has my vote, but like Miss Vicky, I’d rather not have separate ballots for noir and neo-noir.
Would that be a bad thing? Seems like it would be a fun countdown as there would be lots of surprises and not the same predictable movies.
*BTW, I'm not pro Underseen countdowns, just trying to keep the convo going🙂
That would be the essence of an "Underseen-or-whatever" countdown, but given the scope, there's the possibility that we would end up with a #1 that was present just in 2 or 3 ballots, if at all. I think this idea is better suited for a smaller countdown, maybe.
I’m not super keen on any of the options listed, especially not if Noir is done as two separate lists, but I would probably participate in any of them - though perhaps not with a full ballot.
I'm very much pro-Noir countdown, but I'm not so sure about the idea of separate lists.
Little Ash
10-10-23, 06:06 PM
i’m in favor of a 90s redo personally, as i think it would be drastically different from last time. speaking for myself, i would be surprised if my list today has more than five films in common with the list i made back then, and that’s before you factor in the dozens of new members who weren’t around last time. i also just like the genre->decade rotation we’re on, and don’t feel like having the pesky genre eligibility arguments again so soon after the war countdown.
also a huge fan of the not-on-previous-lists idea, although my preference would be to wait until after the 90s one. these are the only two that interest me at the moment, but i will of course participate in whatever the group decides.
Mostly this, but while I dig the idea of the "not on previous list" idea more than musicals, it feels like it's the list to be done after the major genres and decade updates (i.e., I guess we do noir and westerns first).
I checked some of my favorite Underseen films on IMDB to see how many votes they have? Maybe some of us could do that too?
The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane 17k
Demons (Shura) 2.6k
In a Glass Cage 4.9k
Poison for the Fairies 2.3k
The Reflecting Skin 9.1k
The Winter War (Talvisota) 8.5k
J'accuse 2k
Sundays and Cybele 4.7k
Personally, I really like the underseen and "not on previous lists" even with the potential issues of lacking any sort of consensus.
I checked some of my favorite Underseen films on IMDB to see how many votes they have? Maybe some of us could do that too? That way we could see if a Underseen countdown is feasible? This is what I got just off the top of my head.
Miracle Mile (1988) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097889/) 12k votes
Cherry 2000 (1987) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092746/) 10k votes
Fat City (1972) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068575/) 10k votes
Caged (1950) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042296/) 4.4k votes
American Movie (1999) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/) 19k votes
Sundays and Cybele (1962) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055910/) 4.7k votes
Meek's Cutoff (2010) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1518812/) 15k votes
The Big Knife (1955) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047880/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) 4k votes
*yes I realize not all of those would be considered underseen films but I included them to show how their vote numbers appeared.
These are the ones I brought up on the podcast episodes I mentioned. They had to be within certain genres, so...
Horror: The Void (2016) - 40K votes
Crime: 11:14 (2003) - 49K votes
Western: A Man for Hanging (1972) - 89 votes
Action: The Wave (2015) - 41K votes
Random: Conspiracy (2001) - 23K votes
I remember most of these being lower when I did that episode 2-ish years ago.
Fantasy: Belladonna of Sadness (1973) - 7.3K votes
Documentary: Back to Bosnia (2005) - 86 votes
Crime: 10 Rillington Place (1971) - 9.4K votes
Musical: Cabin in the Sky (1943) - 3.2K votes
Random: Glass Chin (2014) - 890 votes
This one I did a couple of months ago, so they are all significantly lower.
I voted for "Films Not On Previous Lists"
Musicals? Really? Really?!
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 06:41 PM
That would be the essence of an "Underseen-or-whatever" countdown, but given the scope, there's the possibility that we would end up with a #1 that was present just in 2 or 3 ballots, if at all. I think this idea is better suited for a smaller countdown, maybe.You could be right, maybe a smaller countdown of some type would be the best for Underseen.
I'm very much pro-Noir countdown, but I'm not so sure about the idea of separate lists.Noir countdown: I don't know if I made it clear in my 1st post, but I was meaning the choice to send two ballots or just one, would be up to the individual. A person could send both ballots or just one, their choice.
The reason being if it was just an all noir countdown with just one ballot, the classic era noir movies would be way overshadowed by the more popular modern neo noir/crime movies, so it wouldn't be worth doing for classic noir fans. Sort of like doing a French New Wave countdown but including all French films. If we want to make a solid list that's better than the current BFI Noirs two ballots is idea.
Wyldesyde19
10-10-23, 07:14 PM
Noir countdown: I don't know if I made it clear in my 1st post, but I was meaning the choice to send two ballots or just one, would be up to the individual. A person could send both ballots or just one, their choice.
The reason being if it was just an all noir countdown with just one ballot, the classic era noir movies would be way overshadowed by the more popular modern neo noir/crime movies, so it wouldn't be worth doing for classic noir fans. Sort of like doing a French New Wave countdown but including all French films. If we want to make a solid list that's better than the current BFI Noirs two ballots is idea.
In response to “classic” being overshadowed by “newer” noir, you get that anyways with our usual countdowns, where more recent, that is films within the last 20-30 years, overshadowing more classic older films.
Noir and neo-noir has always been combined in any lists of Noir that I have seen.
The analogy of French New Wave films and allowing any French film doesn’t work because the two are so distinct from each other.
Now, I know noir/neo-noir do have differences, but they’re certainly more alike in terms of “genre”.
Harry Lime
10-10-23, 07:16 PM
Whatever it is I think we should have 3 months max for a watching period.
rauldc14
10-10-23, 07:19 PM
You could be right, maybe a smaller countdown of some type would be the best for Underseen.
Noir countdown: I don't know if I made it clear in my 1st post, but I was meaning the choice to send two ballots or just one, would be up to the individual. A person could send both ballots or just one, their choice.
The reason being if it was just an all noir countdown with just one ballot, the classic era noir movies would be way overshadowed by the more popular modern neo noir/crime movies, so it wouldn't be worth doing for classic noir fans. Sort of like doing a French New Wave countdown but including all French films. If we want to make a solid list that's better than the current BFI Noirs two ballots is idea.
I actually think you are thinking this wrong. The classic noirs have a pretty big fan base here at mofo. Almost my whole list would make it up.
Citizen Rules
10-10-23, 07:24 PM
In response to “classic” being overshadowed by “newer” noir, you get that anyways with our usual countdowns, where more recent, that is films within the last 20-30 years, overshadowing more classic older films.
Noir and neo-noir has always been combined in any lists of Noir that I have seen.
The analogy of French New Wave films and allowing any French film doesn’t work because the two are so distinct from each other.
Now, I know noir/neo-noir do have differences, but they’re certainly more alike in terms of “genre”.
I actually think you are thinking this wrong. The classic noirs have a pretty big fan base here at mofo. Almost my whole list would make it up.
Holden Pike's post from a previous discussion convinced me he was right, see below:
Yes, the big problem with Film Noir is defining what we mean by that. The actual period is from the '40s until the early '50s or so. Which is a very rich, interesting movement and has hundreds of titles even though it is only twelvish or so years. For those of us who are Film Noir nuts that is more than enough to make a Top 50 for absolute sure but probably even a Top 100. However, getting more than thirty or so MoFos to make super deep dives into the Classic Noir period is basically not gonna happen.
Which means opening it up to Neo Noir so that we could get participation into the sixty-or-so mark that we had for say the Westerns list. But the problem there is while there is plenty of bickering among Noir enthusiasts and scholars about what is and isn't part of the classic canon, when it comes to Neo Noir it is open to much wider interpretation. So wide that it would be difficult to argue too much with somebody about what should or shouldn't count. If somebody says Chinatown and Night Moves (1975), obviously the answer is yes. If somebody else says Body Heat and Blade Runner, yeah, you can see it. But then when it becomes every thriller ever made and somebody wants to include three of the Fast and the Furious flicks on their ballot and The Human Centipede and Donnie Darko and Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery and Spider-Man: Into the Spiderverse it will so dilute the group list that to call it "Noir" of any kind is just ridiculous. And if voters can completely make up their own definition that means all of the cooler, obscure actual Film Noir from the '40s and '50s has absolutely zero chance of making it and being discovered - which to me would be the point of such an exercise. Even the acknowledged classics of the genre would fall well behind David Fincher and Christopher Nolan movies so that something that by all rights and by any objective metric should be obvious Top Ten material on a Film Noir list - Double Indemnity, Out of the Past, The Postman Always Rings Twice, In a Lonely Place, The Asphalt Jungle, The Killing - would be well down the list if there at all.
So instead of Noir you could call it "Thrillers" or "Crime Films" or something else, but again, it becomes so broad that all of the usual suspects from the decade lists rise to the top and maybe you get a handful of actual, classic Film Noir. Maybe.
I think Underseen is doable too. We'd just have to adjust the number of IMDB votes so that the countdown reflected mostly underseen films yet didn't exclude everything.
I checked some of my favorite Underseen films on IMDB to see how many votes they have? Maybe some of us could do that too? That way we could see if a Underseen countdown is feasible? This is what I got just off the top of my head.
Miracle Mile (1988) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097889/) 12k votes
Cherry 2000 (1987) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092746/) 10k votes
Fat City (1972) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068575/) 10k votes
Caged (1950) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042296/) 4.4k votes
American Movie (1999) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/) 19k votes
Sundays and Cybele (1962) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055910/) 4.7k votes
Meek's Cutoff (2010) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1518812/) 15k votes
The Big Knife (1955) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047880/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) 4k votes
*yes I realize not all of those would be considered underseen films but I included them to show how their vote numbers appeared.
Some of my favourite underseen films:
One Foot in Heaven (1941) 1,441 votes
The Marrying Kind (1952) 1,597 votes
Les misérables (1934) 1,913 votes
The Wheel (1923) 2,456 votes
I Knew Her Well (1965) 3,018 votes
Medium Cool (1969) 4,601 votes
Sundays and Cybèle (1962) 4,674 votes
The Merchant of Four Seasons (1972) 5,122 votes
Le silence de la mer (1949) 5,494 votes
SpelingError
10-10-23, 08:15 PM
I'm not super keen on any of the options listed. I don't think the underseen list idea is as bad as some users are suggesting (the point of it would be "underseen in general", not "underseen by the MoFo crowd"), but I do see the argument that it may be better suited for a shorter countdown (like a top 50).
jiraffejustin
10-10-23, 08:25 PM
Samurai Films
Samurai Films
I would vote for that
rauldc14
10-10-23, 09:04 PM
Samurai Films
1. Brave Little Toaster
Sundays and Cybele (1962) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055910/) 4.7k votes
Sundays and Cybele 4.7k
Sundays and Cybèle (1962) 4,674 votes
Just realized this; do we have a first top contender surfacing :D
Holden Pike
10-10-23, 10:57 PM
Personally, I really like the underseen and "not on previous lists" even with the potential issues of lacking any sort of consensus.
If we acknowledge a consensus is extremely difficult if not impossible to come by then why would we go through an exercise designed to determine consensus?
If we acknowledge a consensus is extremely difficult if not impossible to come by then why would we go through an exercise designed to determine consensus?
I guess one could ask in return why go through an exercise if most of us could name at least half of the films in advance, and at later stages of the reveal, the only surprises are if some film is #8 instead of #6. Both have their pros and cons, with the main difference being the level of consensus needed.
Harry Lime
10-10-23, 11:50 PM
School comedies
History and/or Biography
Family
Musical and Music
Sport
Post-Cold War European Films (basically films from Europe after 1990)
1980-1999 Action
Family
Romance
Just some random ideas
Running noir and neo-noir at the same time(or back to back) is a brilliant idea. It addresses the worst list we;ve got (the BFI) and lets us dive in the noir movements of Japan, France, Italy, and Spain. As opposed to some of the other countdowns which will just add maybe 5-15 new titles having two noir lists you could end up with 50-75 new titles.
PHOENIX74
10-11-23, 01:33 AM
I'm with all the people saying an Underseen countdown will just end up being hundreds of films with one or two voters - and no consensus barring maybe the top 4 or 5. As far as I can see there's :
Action/adventure - a bit too close to war? Maybe
Drama - excluding any films that are also tagged as action, comedy or thriller.
Thrillers
(But I'm in the half of a very contentious group that would like to see Musicals.)
Historical/True Stories
Biopic
Romance
One of the above, please. But I'll go along with anything.
I mean if you are looking for other options...
Sequels - after the top five-ten of Silence of the Lambs, The Godfather Part II, The Dark Knight, Aliens, The Good the Bad and the Ugly and Empire Strikes Back
Specific Regions....
French Films
Italian Films
Japanese Films
You could even do a "New Wave" list
Epics - Something that has been around since the start of filmmaking and could lead to a better list.
Films of the Hollywood Studio Era - going into the 30's-60's
90's Indies - The independent film movement of the 90's was pretty big,
80's Horror
80's Comedy
70's - International films
30's Comedies - It's a deeper genre than you think
You could do 100 filmmakers
You could do 100 Actors
You could do 100 Actresses
Citizen Rules
10-11-23, 11:29 AM
Regarding other options, I like these:
Historical
Biography
Romance
Drama - excluding any films also tagged as action, comedy or thriller.
Musicals
Films of the Hollywood Studio Era - going into the 30's-60's
I also think someday when we run out of ideas or want to do something more defined these are good ideas:
French Films
Italian Films
Japanese Films
"New Wave" films
An idea of my own is:
Precode films
mrblond
10-11-23, 12:00 PM
At first, I liked the "underseen" idea but reading all these writings here I'm more and more hesitant about it.
The most important thing is distinguishing the terms underseen and obscure.
I see many users here talk about obscure titles and that is not a good direction.
Underseen IMDB levels, broadly talking, are 10K to 50K or most precisely I'd say 15K to 30K. In this category can be found movies which to be in more ballots.
Any discussion for a movies below 10K IMDB ratings is a hopeless case.
If countdown like this is to be started, I'd like to see two border lines not only one:
˅ 35K
countdown zone
˄ 15K
I think not being on a previous list is kind of a cleaner way to do "underseen" that, whatever its other risks (which I totally acknowledge/are all well taken), sidesteps the many logistical questions about how to measure that while mostly achieving the same things.
Also, it makes "underseen" (which is a relative term) something we're comparing to the baseline of this community, rather than moviegoers in general, which I think makes sense since this group has self-selected as having seen a lot more than that group.
John Dumbear
10-11-23, 12:52 PM
How about top 100 one word film titles.
lol
How about top 100 one word film titles.
lol
Nope
cricket
10-11-23, 05:39 PM
Hate the underseen idea. Like the not on previous lists idea. Voted for musicals. Don't like musicals.
John W Constantine
10-11-23, 06:49 PM
The Not on Previous Lists has grown on me since yesterday. I like having to pick outside the normal favorites box and just see what sticks. Would definitely be an interesting take but I hope the ballot numbers wouldn't take a huge nosedive.
I voted for that, noir, and a refresh for the 90's list.
Harry Lime
10-11-23, 09:54 PM
I don't really care for underseen or not on previous lists.
I haven't voted yet. Those who have, can you see the totals? Post a screenshot?
edit: Just remembered the secret trick. Noir in the lead eh.
Thursday Next
10-12-23, 02:34 AM
I like not on previous lists but I like it better after we've done musicals.
mrblond
10-12-23, 11:21 AM
Aside of the 90's redo, count me for refresh the Westerns too.
:yup:
Miss Vicky
10-12-23, 12:23 PM
Aside of the 90's redo, count me for refresh the Westerns too.
:yup:
Westerns was only 3 years ago (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=61540). Way too soon for a redo.
Thursday Next
10-12-23, 03:57 PM
Redoing lists we only did 3 years ago is the mofo version of an ill-judged too-soon movie remake.
Holden Pike
10-12-23, 04:03 PM
Yeah, why is Westerns even in the mix for some people? Let's redo the War Movies, too.
Holden Pike
10-12-23, 04:42 PM
I floated this before, but I see a couple ways to do actors/actresses.
95614
You could do it straight forward, simply a list of one's Top 25 performers (splitting up male and female, if wanted), voting for their total body of work.
Or there is a way to reexamine the decade lists without simply redoing them: by voting for favorite performances, by decade. Single titles could pull more than one nominee of course, and those MoFos who think vocal performances for animation or motion capture works don't get their due could rectify that by elevating them on their ballots. It would also allow you to vote for strong/favorite performances in films that maybe don't work as well in total, or are the lighter fare or deep genre kind of movie that would have a difficult time making a straight decade list but could get a mention through a marvelous or iconic performance. People are always complaining about the Oscars snubbed this performance or that, well, now you can vote.
95615
matt72582
10-13-23, 09:11 AM
Underseen - sounds like a GREAT idea. It's no fun when a list contains movies you've already seen.
(does it have to be under a certain amount of IMDB votes?)
Citizen Rules
10-13-23, 11:57 AM
Underseen - sounds like a GREAT idea. It's no fun when a list contains movies you've already seen.
(does it have to be under a certain amount of IMDB votes?)We were trying to determine how many IMDB votes would be used for underseen films aka Films not on previous lists? Maybe you could list a sample of some of your favorite underseen movies with the number of IMDB votes they have. So far:
The Little Girl Who Lives Down the Lane 17k
Demons (Shura) 2.6k
In a Glass Cage 4.9k
Poison for the Fairies 2.3k
The Reflecting Skin 9.1k
The Winter War (Talvisota) 8.5k
J'accuse 2k
Sundays and Cybele 4.7k...
...Horror: The Void (2016) - 40K votes
Crime: 11:14 (2003) - 49K votes
Western: A Man for Hanging (1972) - 89 votes
Action: The Wave (2015) - 41K votes
Random: Conspiracy (2001) - 23K votes
Fantasy: Belladonna of Sadness (1973) - 7.3K votes
Documentary: Back to Bosnia (2005) - 86 votes
Crime: 10 Rillington Place (1971) - 9.4K votes
Musical: Cabin in the Sky (1943) - 3.2K votes
Random: Glass Chin (2014) - 890 votes
...
Some of my favourite underseen films:
One Foot in Heaven (1941) 1,441 votes
The Marrying Kind (1952) 1,597 votes
Les misérables (1934) 1,913 votes
The Wheel (1923) 2,456 votes
I Knew Her Well (1965) 3,018 votes
Medium Cool (1969) 4,601 votes
Sundays and Cybèle (1962) 4,674 votes
The Merchant of Four Seasons (1972) 5,122 votes
Le silence de la mer (1949) 5,494 votes
Miracle Mile (1988) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097889/) 12k votes
Cherry 2000 (1987) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0092746/) 10k votes
Fat City (1972) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0068575/) 10k votes
Caged (1950) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0042296/) 4.4k votes
American Movie (1999) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0181288/) 19k votes
Sundays and Cybele (1962) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0055910/) 4.7k votes
Meek's Cutoff (2010) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1518812/) 15k votes
The Big Knife (1955) (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047880/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) 4k votes...
matt72582
10-13-23, 04:27 PM
"Harry and Tonto" only has 6.1k but it looks like there's no way for "Underseen" to win.
There's no answer to the question of how each thing would work because we don't know who's hosting.
Similarly, the results of the poll only matter if someone will host that list. If we have a volunteer but they, say, are only interested in hosting the runner up or what have you, then that'll have to be what we do.
The next list is the nexus of what the voters want and what someone will commit to running.
cricket
10-13-23, 06:00 PM
Just to keep everyone happy, the top 100 underseen musical noirs that haven't appeared on a previous list. 6 month prep, 5 months to find them and 1 month to watch them.
Diehl40
10-13-23, 09:32 PM
A few moies that might qualify
Permanent Vacation Jarmusch 10k
Buffet Froid Bleir 6.3k
Choice of Arms 2k
Five Corners John patrick Shanley 3.8k
Still Crazy 8.5k
Mindwalk 3.2k
City of Hope Sayles 2.7k
Passion Fish 6k
Diehl40
10-13-23, 11:15 PM
It could be a great way to build your to watch list. If you accepted that as the list purpose it could be successful without building consensus.
Would that be a bad thing? Seems like it would be a fun countdown as there would be lots of surprises and not the same predictable movies.
*BTW, I'm not pro Underseen countdowns, just trying to keep the convo going🙂
Thursday Next
10-14-23, 04:52 AM
I'm not so sure about the IMDb underseen as I think it would be difficult to find the films compared to a more defined genre. Unless you're one of those people who keeps a list of every film they've ever seen in order of rating and you just type it into IMDb to see how many other people have watched it. I think IMDb is understandably very skewed towards more recent movies (since it is itself recent) so is maybe not an accurate reflection of whether a film is really underseen.
Wyldesyde19
10-14-23, 06:04 PM
Noir the clear run away winner here.
edarsenal
10-15-23, 11:15 AM
Redoing a ten-year-old decade Countdown or CR's two-fold Noir/Neo-Noir Countdowns sounds great. And add me to the Musicals fan. Also, I support a renewed Animation list too.
John W Constantine
10-15-23, 04:06 PM
Looking like a shadowy n darkly lit winter.
Neo Noir has never gotten a Hall of Fame either
Citizen Rules
10-15-23, 07:05 PM
Neo Noir has never gotten a Hall of Fame eitherIt will! If noir countdown wins the poll.
Citizen Rules
10-15-23, 07:09 PM
I was just looking at what movies qualify for Neo Noir because some people are saying they don't watch them... Well good grief!...Some of the biggest films and best loved films are tagged neo noir. Anyone ever hear of a little movie called Taxi Driver? or Chinatown ? or Dark City? or Reservoir Dogs? Oldboy? Memento? Mulholland Drive?. Literally the most popular films are Neo Noirs. A few more:
Nightcrawler, No Country for Old Men, Shutter Island, The Long Goodbye, The Man from Nowhere, The Man Who Wasn't There,
The Usual Suspects, To Live and Die in L.A., True Confessions,
Zodiac. That list could go on and one and on. I bet more MoFos have seen Neo Noir movies than they've seen of war movies and the war countdown kicked ass! So yeah a noir countdown will be fun:)
Maybe to help people vote, here is a helpful video explaining what is "noir"...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28zAIcBfqAM
Neo-Noir was also very popular in international movements....Italian Giallo's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9T0ab8KQY
You have the works of Pedro Almodovar who often makes noir films
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMG11G5jQUc
And you've got The French New Wave in particular the works of Jean-Pierre Melville
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1GmzgsjrR8E
Neo-Noir was also very popular in international movements....Italian Giallo's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty9T0ab8KQY
Yeah, I'm a little unsure about the definition of neo-noir, but if Giallo's count then my ballot will be like 20 Giallo's and 5 others.
matt72582
10-16-23, 12:38 PM
"Chinatown" would be an example of neo-noir
I'd throw 10k as the number of IMDB votes for "Under-seen"
Might be worth starting to talk about who's interested in hosting this. But we have seen comebacks, still a couple of weeks in the voting. But willing to close early if the results don't move for awhile.
Yeah, I'm a little unsure about the definition of neo-noir, but if Giallo's count then my ballot will be like 20 Giallo's and 5 others.
Technically, neo-noir refers to any "noir" made after the standard classical noir period of 1940-1959 that carries more modern sensibilities. Chinatown, which Matt mentioned, is usually the prime example, but also L.A. Confidential, Red Rock West, Bound, Blood Simple, etc.
Wyldesyde19
10-16-23, 09:43 PM
Giallo isn’t neo-noir.
Yeah, Giallo is a whole different beast.
Citizen Rules
10-16-23, 10:09 PM
Technically, neo-noir refers to any "noir" made after the standard classical noir period of 1940-1959 that carries more modern sensibilities. Chinatown, which Matt mentioned, is usually the prime example, but also L.A. Confidential, Red Rock West, Bound, Blood Simple, etc.Yes to all those movies you mentioned being neo noir. I did post this yesterday not sure if anyone really seen it:
...Some of the biggest films and best loved films are tagged neo noir. Anyone ever hear of a little movie called Taxi Driver? or Chinatown ? or Dark City? or Reservoir Dogs? Oldboy? Memento? Mulholland Drive?. Literally the most popular films are Neo Noirs. A few more:
Nightcrawler, No Country for Old Men, Shutter Island, The Long Goodbye, The Man from Nowhere, The Man Who Wasn't There,The Usual Suspects, To Live and Die in L.A., True Confessions,
Zodiac. That list could go on and one and on. I bet more MoFos have seen Neo Noir movies than they've seen of war movies and the war countdown kicked ass! So yeah a noir countdown will be fun😊
Giallo isn’t neo-noir.I'm not familiar with Giallo but I'd say you're right.
Yes to all those movies you mentioned being neo noir. I did post this yesterday not sure if anyone really seen it:
Yeah, I agree with your general idea, even if I don't necessarily agree with some of your choices of films to label as neo-noir.
Re: Giallo, it is more closely associated with horror and slashers than it is to crime films.
Re: Giallo, it is more closely associated with horror and slashers than it is to crime films.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU3nyeFiDK4&t=265s
And yet....the actual history of Giallo's are "yellow" pulp novels adapted in the 60's
https://zobowithashotgun.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/book-covers.jpg
Now are they violent and horror...sure, stylized horror but it;s important to note that neo-noir crosses into other genres. Science Fiction has some of the more famous neo-noirs like Blade Runner, Dark City, and Alphaville. Those films are sciene fiction but they are also noir films. You are taking a crime story and telling it in a new way. For the Italians that was sex/horror/mystery.
Wyldesyde19
10-17-23, 04:52 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU3nyeFiDK4&t=265s
And yet....the actual history of Giallo's are "yellow" pulp novels adapted in the 60's
https://zobowithashotgun.files.wordpress.com/2020/10/book-covers.jpg
Now are they violent and horror...sure, stylized horror but it;s important to note that neo-noir crosses into other genres. Science Fiction has some of the more famous neo-noirs like Blade Runner, Dark City, and Alphaville. Those films are sciene fiction but they are also noir films. You are taking a crime story and telling it in a new way. For the Italians that was sex/horror/mystery.
A lot of this is true yes, but Giallo has always been termed as thrillers, and don’t share much in common with neo-noir in terms themes, motifs, and characterizations.
Now, some neo-noir can be psychological thrillers as well as crime dramas, but they differ from giallo in style and themes.
I’ve never read Giallo as neo-noir, and anything I’ve ever come across and read about it has treated it as its own sun genre.
Now tech noir (Bladerunner, Dark City) is indeed a sub genre, and is recognized as such
Diehl40
10-18-23, 03:22 PM
I saw a list of neo-noirs that had three David Lynch movies. They were: Blue Velvet, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive. Do these sound like neo-noir to you?
Wyldesyde19
10-18-23, 03:48 PM
I saw a list of neo-noirs that had three David Lynch movies. They were: Blue Velvet, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive. Do these sound like neo-noir to you?
Yes, very much so.
Citizen Rules
10-18-23, 04:18 PM
I saw a list of neo-noirs that had three David Lynch movies. They were: Blue Velvet, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive. Do these sound like neo-noir to you? Checking on Wikipedia all are listed neo-noir.
rauldc14
10-21-23, 08:41 PM
Noir wins. Let's start! :)
Did I miss the part where someone volunteered to host? ;)
Citizen Rules
10-21-23, 08:59 PM
Did I miss the part where someone volunteered to host? ;)I volunteered to host on the 3rd post. I said this:
What the hell...I'll volunteer to host a Noir Countdown😲 I want it down right if we do one and the only way I can see is this:
First We have two voting ballots, one ballot is for noirs from the 1940s-1950s. The second ballot is for neo noirs from 1960 to current. IMDB movie page is used to qualify the movies, if the tag 'noir' or 'neo-noir' occurs anywhere on the movie page then that movie qualifies. People can send both ballots or just one of them.
Second The two ballots are combined into one Noir countdown consisting of 50 classic era noirs and 50 neo noirs. However there's only one countdown presentation and each day a movie is revealed from each of the two ballot tabulations (one classic noir movie per day and one neo noir movie per day).
Third When the time comes for Yoda to add the countdown list to MoFo there would be a Top 50 Classic Noir list and a Top 50 Neo Noir list.
*This allows classic noir fans to have a focused list and allows fans of newer neo noir to have a list as well, we all get to have our cake! It doesn't take any more time to do this and there's still only one countdown being done.
***If we do this I'd be happy to share hosting duties and let someone else do the neo noir, I'm interested in the classic noir part.
Citizen Rules
10-21-23, 09:01 PM
Noir wins. Let's start! :)If I have a green light, I'll start the preliminary thread on Noir-vember 1st. I've already worked on it and done some leg work.
rauldc14
10-22-23, 11:18 AM
Do what you wish, but I like the idea of the actual points that each film gets are ranked in order. For an example, technically classic noir could consist of the whole top 5, or vice versa, if that makes sense. But still representation of 50 each.
I'll wait until tomorrow just to make sure people get a chance to volunteer/nobody objects (I will be very surprised if anybody objects), and then I'll be in touch. :)
Start thinking about how you wanna handle eligibility and all that. I have opinions, of course, if you want them, but ultimately it's all up to you.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 11:31 AM
I'll wait until tomorrow just to make sure people get a chance to volunteer/nobody objects (I will be very surprised if anybody objects), and then I'll be in touch. :) Sounds good.
Start thinking about how you wanna handle eligibility and all that. I have opinions, of course, if you want them, but ultimately it's all up to you.
I pretty much have that fleshed out. I've done some serious checking on noir and neo noir movies at all the various movie sites and have something worked out. I was just going to go back over my notes this morning.
John Dumbear
10-22-23, 11:46 AM
Going to have to sustain from the next countdown. Don't think I've even watched more than a couple of dozen noir films.
I'll keep tabs on this for future learning.
I saw a list of neo-noirs that had three David Lynch movies. They were: Blue Velvet, Lost Highway, and Mulholland Drive. Do these sound like neo-noir to you?
I haven't seen Lost Highway, and it's been a while since I saw Blue Velvet. Mulholland Drive is a whole different beast. It sure has neo-noir vibes, but there's so much going on in it that I wouldn't peg it as neo-noir.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 12:04 PM
Going to have to sustain from the next countdown. Don't think I've even watched more than a couple of dozen noir films.
I'll keep tabs on this for future learning.Think of it as a Crime Thriller countdown, I know you've seen alot of those right? As long as a movie was made from 1960 to present and is tagged Neo-Noir at Wikipedia, it is in! All of these movies are tagged Neo Noir and there's a lot more too, this is just a sample.
52 Pick-Up (1986)
A Simple Plan (1998)
Absence of Malice (1981)
After Dark, My Sweet (1990)
Against All Odds (1984)
Agnes of God (1985)
Alphaville (1965)
American Gigolo (1980)
Angel Heart (1987)
Bad Times at the El Royale (2018)
Badlands (1973)
Basic Instinct (1992)
Black Widow (1987)
Blade Runner (1982) (sort of)
Blade Runner 2049 (2017)
Blast of Silence (1961)
Blood and Wine (1996)
Blood Simple (1984)
Blow Out (1981)
Blue Velvet (1986)
Body Double (1984)
Body Heat (1981)
Bound (1996)
Brick (2005)
Bullitt (1968)
Cape Fear (1962)
Cape Fear (1991) not marked but in as it's a remake of an earlier neo noir
Chinatown (1974)
Collateral (2004)
Croupier (1998)
Cutter's Way (1981)
D.O.A. (1988)
Dark City (1998)
Dead Men Don't Wear Plaid (1982)
Defiance (1980)
Devil in a Blue Dress (1995)
Dirty Harry (1971)
Fallen Angels (1995)
Farewell, My Lovely (1975)
Following (1998)
Ghost in the Shell (1995)
Gloria (1980)
Gone Baby Gone (2007)
Hammett (1982)
I Walk the Line (1970)
In Cold Blood (1967)
Inherent Vice (2014)
John Wick (2014) (sort of)
Kill Me Again (1989)
King of New York (1990)
Kiss Kiss Bang Bang (2005)
Kiss of Death (1995)
Klute (1971)
L.A. Confidential (1997)
Lady in Cement (1968)
Le Samouraï (1967)
Lone Star (1996)
Lost Highway (1997)
Magical Girl (2014)
Magnum Force (1973)
Man-Trap (1961)
Marlowe (1969)
Memento (2000)
Miller's Crossing (1990)
Mother (2009)
Motherless Brooklyn (2019)
Mulholland Drive (2001)
Mystic River (2003)
Narc (2002)
Narrow Margin (1990)
Night and the City (1992)
Night Moves (1975)
Nightcrawler (2014)
Nightmare Alley (2021)
No Country for Old Men (2007)
Nocturnal Animals (2016)
Obsession (1976)
Oldboy (2003)
Out of Bounds (1986)
Palmetto (1998)
Point Blank (1967) (sort of)
Portrait in Black (1960)
Prince of the City (1981)
Red Rock West (1993)
Reservoir Dogs (1992)
Sea of Love (1989)
Shutter Island (2010)
Sin City (2005)
Sharky's Machine (1981)
Stormy Monday (1998)
Strange Days (1995) (sort of)
Sympathy for Mr. Vengeance (2002)
Taxi Driver (1976)
The Aura (2005)
The Big Easy (1986)
The Big Sleep (1978)
The Black Dahlia (2006)
The Champ (1979)
The Dead Pool (1988)
The Executioner (1970)
The French Connection (1971)
The Friends of Eddie Coyle (1973)
The Grifters (1990)
The Hot Spot (1990)
The Incident (1967)
The Killers (1964)
The Killing of a Chinese Bookie (1976)
The Last Seduction (1994)
The Late Show (1977)
The Long Goodbye (1973)
The Man from Nowhere (2010)
The Man Who Wasn't There (2001)
The Manchurian Candidate (2004)
The Naked Kiss (1964)
The Ninth Gate (1999)
The Onion Field (1979)
The Outfit (1973)
The Postman Always Rings Twice (1981)
The Running Man (1963)
The Salton Sea (2002)
The Two Jakes (1990)
The Usual Suspects (1995)
The Yakuza (1974)
The Yakuza (1974)
Thief (1981)
Tightrope (1984)
To Live and Die in L.A. (1985)
Trouble in Mind (1985)
True Confessions (1981)
Twilight (1998)
U Turn (1997)
Under the Silver Lake (2018)
Underworld U.S.A. (1961)
Walking Tall (1973)
White Line Fever (1975)
Wild Things (1998)
Witness (1985)
Year of the Dragon (1985)
You Were Never Really Here (2017)
Zodiac (2007)
***There will also be a separate optional ballot for Classic Noirs made from 1940-1959 and tagged noir at IMDB or Wikipedia, if you don't dig those you don't have to do them.
Going to have to sustain from the next countdown. Don't think I've even watched more than a couple of dozen noir films.
I'll keep tabs on this for future learning.
How open would you be to try a couple ones before whenever we get to the voting deadline?
John W Constantine
10-22-23, 01:46 PM
They shoot pictures Don't They? has a pretty good section they just started about a year ago on their site. Something to check out for references.
John W Constantine
10-22-23, 01:55 PM
So will we be submitting two lists, one for classic noir and neo- noir?
Harry Lime
10-22-23, 02:31 PM
I've been holding off voting to give noir a late boost if needed but looks like it's not needed. So it's going to be two top 50 lists if CR hosts? That works. And then are we going to be submitting a top 25 for each noir/neonoir or like a top 10 or 15 for each since they're only 50 films for each countdown list?
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 02:57 PM
So will we be submitting two lists, one for classic noir and neo- noir? Yes there will be two voting ballots this time. But if someone hasn't seen enough classic noir they can submit just the one ballot for Neo Noir. It's up to the individual if they submit both ballots or just one.
I've been holding off voting to give noir a late boost if needed but looks like it's not needed. So it's going to be two top 50 lists if CR hosts? That works. And then are we going to be submitting a top 25 for each noir/neonoir or like a top 10 or 15 for each since they're only 50 films for each countdown list?The ballots will have the usual 25 movie spots (25 on the Noir ballot and also 25 on the Neo Noir ballot) and as usual people can submit ballots with as little as 10 movies per ballot.
It will be a Top 100 countdown with the top 50 Noir films and the top 50 Neo Noir films. The idea is to be able to create two list for the MoFo list section. A classic Noir list and a Neo Noir list as both are different enough from each other to not really be the same thing.
After going through Citizen Rules list of Neo Noir films and finding lots of movies I like, I realized I will participate in this countdown. Then I looked at Wikipedia's list of Neo Noirs and found more movies I like. Some of those I judged to be not really Neo Noirs, while some seem questionable- are the following films Neo Noir?:
True Romance (1993)
Heat (1995)
Jackie Brown (1997)
Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels (1998)
Watchmen (2009)
Drive (2011)
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 06:36 PM
After going through Citizen Rules list of Neo Noir films and finding lots of movies I like, I realized I will participate in this countdown. Then I looked at Wikipedia's list of Neo Noirs and found more movies I like. Some of those I judged to be not really Neo Noirs, while some seem questionable- are the following films Neo Noir?:
True Romance (1993)
Heat (1995)
Jackie Brown (1997)
Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels (1998)
Watchmen (2009)
Drive (2011) No, none of those qualify. I decided the fairest way to determine with the least amount of turmoil is to use the 'neo-noir' genre tag at Wikipedia. It must say 'neo noir' in the first section at Wiki that describes the movies, and none of those do.
If further down the page it says something like, 'such and such critic called the film an edgy noir' or 'the film exhibits noir styling' etc, that won't count as it's someone else opinion being sited. ***That's for films for the neo noir countdown.
Just a reminder that, while you can decide whatever you want for ballots, criteria, et cetera, the software as constructed allows for one ballot per person per list. So if you wanna do something unusual there's a pretty good chance that also means calculating things the old way, with a spreadsheet.
I also think that having two lists would make both of them very small, certainly to the point of requiring they each be less than 100, but that's more speculative, of course. I don't follow how they'd be merged; they'd just have to be two lists, ultimately, yeah?
rauldc14
10-22-23, 06:50 PM
Let's put it all together! And may the best noirs win!
Oh, I just know I'm going to be very persnickety about these "definitions" :laugh:
John W Constantine
10-22-23, 07:52 PM
No, none of those qualify. I decided the fairest way to determine with the least amount of turmoil is to use the 'neo-noir' genre tag at Wikipedia. It must say 'neo noir' in the first section at Wiki that describes the movies, and none of those do.
If further down the page it says something like, 'such and such critic called the film an edgy noir' or 'the film exhibits noir styling' etc, that won't count as it's someone else opinion being sited. ***That's for films for the neo noir countdown.
I thought I saw those listed on the Wikipedia page, it's has a decade by decade breakdown. I dunno.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 07:52 PM
Just a reminder that, while you can decide whatever you want for ballots, criteria, et cetera, the software as constructed allows for one ballot per person per list. So if you wanna do something unusual there's a pretty good chance that also means calculating things the old way, with a spreadsheet.Bummer, I didn't know that the software won't work for two ballots with one countdown....So I'll do it the old fashion way and have people mail me their ballots (like I did for the 1930s countdown), unless there's another work around?
I also think that having two lists would make both of them very small, certainly to the point of requiring they each be less than 100, but that's more speculative, of course. I don't follow how they'd be merged; they'd just have to be two lists, ultimately, yeah?Yes, two separate list when the countdown is over. So you would be adding two different list to the MoFo list section, one would be The Top 50 Film Noirs...and the other list would be The Top 50 Neo Noirs.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 08:10 PM
@Yoda (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=1) I just had an idea. I don't really want to have to hand calculate the ballots the old fashion way...I like your new software much better! So a solution would be to run two countdowns of Top 50 each back to back. That way there's two countdowns and so two ballots (one ballot for each countdown). Seeing how the two countdowns would be only Top 50 the total time of presentation would be the same as a Top 100...and their 'watch periods' can run at the same time too so that this idea doesn't take one more day longer than any other countdown. Would that work?
MovieFan1988
10-22-23, 08:20 PM
Citizen Rules - Why not just make it a Crime Thriller countdown, that's what noir and neo noir is pretty much about right? I think it would make it simpler other than just have 2 lists.
I would like to see a Crime Thriller countdown btw and you would make a good host for it.
@Yoda (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=1) I just had an idea. I don't really want to have to hand calculate the ballots the old fashion way...I like your new software much better! So a solution would be to run two countdowns of Top 50 each back to back. That way there's two countdowns and so two ballots (one ballot for each countdown). Seeing how the two countdowns would be only Top 50 the total time of presentation would be the same as a Top 100...and their 'watch periods' can run at the same time too so that this idea doesn't take one more day longer than any other countdown. Would that work?
There's a lot of nuance to the answer, mind if we take this to PMs and hash things out before we announce anything either way?
rauldc14
10-22-23, 08:41 PM
1 list! 1 list!
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 09:03 PM
I thought I saw those listed on the Wikipedia page, it's has a decade by decade breakdown. I dunno.Do you have a link?
@Citizen Rules (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=84637) - Why not just make it a Crime Thriller countdown, that's what noir and neo noir is pretty much about right? I think it would make it simpler other than just have 2 lists.
I would like to see a Crime Thriller countdown btw and you would make a good host for it. Thanks for saying I'd be a good host, but I wasn't interested in doing Crime Thrillers as that becomes to broad of a category.
MovieFan1988
10-22-23, 09:21 PM
Do you have a link?
Thanks for saying I'd be a good host, but I wasn't interested in doing Crime Thrillers as that becomes to broad of a category.
It's all good, but I were to do one, I'd make sure it stays on the crime/ thriller path instead of just having some movie on their because it's just crime. Imagine someone saying Godfather is a Crime/Thriller and it's acceptable to the list, yikes lol.
I guess there's another thing you gotta think about with this list is how many people are willing to participate in this, to get more people involved you probably would have to lift the restrictions, which of course we would all know what #1 is going to be now O_o if we just allow crime movies without having thriller in it.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 09:29 PM
It's all good, but I were to do one, I'd make sure it stays on the crime/ thriller path instead of just having some movie on their because it's just crime. Imagine someone saying Godfather is a Crime/Thriller and it's acceptable to the list, yikes lol.
I guess there's another thing you gotta think about with this list is how many people are willing to participate in this, to get more people involved you probably would have to lift the restrictions, which of course we would all know what #1 is going to be now O_o if we just allow crime movies without having thriller in it.Just for fun, how would you determine if a film was a crime thriller or just a crime drama or crime action?
MovieFan1988
10-22-23, 09:59 PM
Just for fun, how would you determine if a film was a crime thriller or just a crime drama or crime action?
I would just look it up on a movie site, IMDB and Letterboxd. If it's a movie that I'm not really sure of and need more options to look, I would look at other places like TMDB or even googling the movie to get the final verdict on what's crime/thriller and what's not. Alot of work yes but it's something other than just relying on IMDB and their tags.
The same applies with Crime drama or Crime action.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 10:01 PM
I would just look it up on a movie site, IMDB and Letterboxd. If it's a movie that I'm not really sure and need more options to look, I would look at other places like TMBD or even googling the movie to get the final verdict on what's crime/thriller and what's not. Alot of work yes but it's something other than just relying on IMDB and their tags.
The same applies with Crime drama or Crime action.Yeah that would probably work.
The Noir purist in me is fidgeting :laugh:
To be honest, I think that there's a bit of overcomplicating things. First, I think that cramming all crime thrillers dilutes the essence of what a Noir countdown would/could/should be. After all, not all crime thrillers are noirs. That said, since "Noir" is the option that won (not "Crime/Thrillers") I think that the two best solutions are:
To go full with the classic noir definition, which covers only films released from 1940 to 1959, as far as they're labeled as "noir" on this or that site. An option that establishes clear, tangible boundaries, but that I know would be limiting for many voters.
To open it up for noirs and neo-noirs all in the same ballot, as far as they're labeled as "noir" or "neo-noir" on this or that site. No need to make two ballots. Just let them all duke it out. This option would be less limiting and, as Citizen pointed out, includes a lot of popular films that some people don't even realize are noir or noir-adjacent.
Those are my .02 cents.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 10:10 PM
The Noir purist in me is fidgeting :laugh:10 more days and I'm binging classic noir. Right now, believe it or not I'm still watching war films from a huge war watch list.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 10:15 PM
To be honest, I think that there's a bit of overcomplicating things. First, I think that cramming all crime thrillers dilutes the essence of what a Noir countdown would/could/should be. After all, not all crime thrillers are noirs. That said, since "Noir" is the option that won (not "Crime/Thrillers") I think that the two best solutions are:
To go full with the classic noir definition, which covers only films released from 1940 to 1959, as far as they're labeled as "noir" on this or that site. An option that establishes clear, tangible boundaries, but that I know would be limiting for many voters.
To open it up for noirs and neo-noirs all in the same ballot, as far as they're labeled as "noir" or "neo-noir" on this or that site. No need to make two ballots. Just let them all duke it out. This option would be less limiting and, as Citizen pointed out, includes a lot of popular films that some people don't even realize are noir or noir-adjacent.
Those are my .02 cents.I'm glad you corrected that type:p I was thinking what??? Myself I'd go for your #1 and do just classic noirs from 1940-1959...but I wonder how many people would submit a ballot? And how many people would gripe?:D
For what it's worth, a quick Google search brought me these two lists of "quintessential" and "best" noir films that manage to have a decent mix of classic noirs, neo-noirs, and some adjacent ones.
Movie Web -- Film Noir: The Quintessential Movies to Get into the Genre (https://movieweb.com/film-noir-quintessential-movies/)
Paste -- The 100 Best Film Noirs of All Time (https://www.pastemagazine.com/movies/film-noir/the-best-noirs-of-all-time)
Regardless of my personal thoughts on some of the inclusions, there is evident consensus in the top spots.
I would expect similar results here if we open it up to noirs/neo-noirs, as far as they are labeled as such in some sites like we did for the "War" countdown. Sure, some "questionable" choices (for some!) got in, but I think we reached a solid consensus and good conversations were had about those "questionable" entries.
John W Constantine
10-22-23, 10:30 PM
Do you have a link?
Thanks for saying I'd be a good host, but I wasn't interested in doing Crime Thrillers as that becomes to broad of a category.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neo-noir_films
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 10:34 PM
Thanks for posting those list. I'm surprised that the #1 film noirs on those list aren't what I quite expected them to be. Still I love both of those films, especially the one with Dan the man Duryea.
Citizen Rules
10-22-23, 10:37 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neo-noir_filmsAh thanks. That's what I thought you seen. I seen those too when I was doing research. The funny thing is if you click on any of the movie links you'll see some of them aren't actually described as neo-noir. A good example is I, Robot (2004) it's listed in that link but it's Wiki page does not tag it as a neo noir. And it's not neo noir.:cool:
Wyldesyde19
10-22-23, 10:55 PM
How would Tech Noir fit into this count down?
Dark City and BladeRunner for example.
John W Constantine
10-22-23, 10:58 PM
Ah thanks. That's what I thought you seen. I seen those too when I was doing research. The funny thing is if you click on any of the movie links you'll see some of them aren't actually described as neo-noir. A good example is I, Robot (2004) it's listed in that link but it's Wiki page does not tag it as a neo noir. And it's not neo noir.:cool:
Darn.
How would Tech Noir fit into this count down?
Dark City and BladeRunner for example.
As far as I'm concerned, they're both "neo-noir". The fact that they're set in the future is just another layer to the noir-ish elements.
Wyldesyde19
10-22-23, 11:07 PM
As far as I'm concerned, they're both "neo-noir". The fact that they're set in the future is just another layer to the noir-ish elements.
That’s what I figured and works for me. Thanks.
rauldc14
10-23-23, 08:55 AM
To be honest, I think that there's a bit of overcomplicating things. First, I think that cramming all crime thrillers dilutes the essence of what a Noir countdown would/could/should be. After all, not all crime thrillers are noirs. That said, since "Noir" is the option that won (not "Crime/Thrillers") I think that the two best solutions are:
To go full with the classic noir definition, which covers only films released from 1940 to 1959, as far as they're labeled as "noir" on this or that site. An option that establishes clear, tangible boundaries, but that I know would be limiting for many voters.
To open it up for noirs and neo-noirs all in the same ballot, as far as they're labeled as "noir" or "neo-noir" on this or that site. No need to make two ballots. Just let them all duke it out. This option would be less limiting and, as Citizen pointed out, includes a lot of popular films that some people don't even realize are noir or noir-adjacent.
Those are my .02 cents.
I'm with Thief and maybe even a quick vote on this to get consensus would help
I would expect similar results here if we open it up to noirs/neo-noirs, as far as they are labeled as such in some sites like we did for the "War" countdown. Sure, some "questionable" choices (for some!) got in, but I think we reached a solid consensus and good conversations were had about those "questionable" entries.
This is pretty much always my opinion on genre countdowns: the more open, the better. Let the voters police themselves. Will you get a few oddball entries? Maybe, but we've got a few oddball voters, so isn't that more accurate? :D And it leads to interesting discussion, which is as much the point as the list itself.
We don't really have anyone trying to outright troll these lists, and even if we did we'd need several of them to really meaningfully do so, so I tend to think there's no need (or reasonable way to) save the voters from themselves, so to speak.
Citizen Rules wants 40s-50s Noirs to be well represented and with all Noirs list Neo Noirs would dominate. I guess he's right. As for myself,- I would only vote for Neo Noirs, making Citizen Rules concern validated. I'm for two lists of 50 going one after the other, not parallel. First voting for one part and then, when results of that is being revealed,- voting for other part.
Citizen Rules
10-23-23, 09:37 AM
Citizen Rules wants 40s-50s Noirs to be well represented and with all Noirs list Neo Noirs would dominate. I guess he's right. As for myself,- I would only vote for Neo Noirs, making Citizen Rules concern validated. I'm for two lists of 50 going one after the other, not parallel. First voting for one part and then, when results of that is being revealed,- voting for other part.Yes that's right. I don't blame anyone for mainly liking neo noirs and not caring about classic noirs which is probably the majority here. For me it's the other way around I don't really care for neo noirs but I do love classic noirs.
rauldc14
10-23-23, 09:51 AM
I must be one of the few who thinks noirs would dominate the neo noirs.
Citizen Rules
10-23-23, 09:52 AM
Looks like I won't be able to do my idea for noir and neo noir. Yoda pointed out that the software he uses won't allow two separate ballots for one countdown and he doesn't see how two countdowns can be done simultaneously. My only reason for volunteering to host was outlined in the third post of this thread (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=2416747#post2416747).
I'm bummed as I really cared about making two really good countdown list but now I'm not able to do my purposed idea....so I have to withdraw from volunteering to host, as I don't want to host a combined noir/neo noir countdown, that's not want I signed up for.
I will still fully support and participate in a noir countdown, but now we need a host, so who wants to host?
rauldc14
10-23-23, 09:52 AM
I think we need a vote because it's so split, then whatever happens from there happens. Again just my .02 and look forward to hearing from more of you.
Citizen Rules
10-23-23, 09:56 AM
I think we need a vote because it's so split, then whatever happens from there happens. Again just my .02 and look forward to hearing from more of you.Vote for what? We can't do a split noir countdown so it will have to be noir/neo noir combined. The only question is who will host?
Holden Pike
10-23-23, 10:05 AM
And who will participate.
Citizen Rules
10-23-23, 10:07 AM
And who will participate. Are you still opposed to a single countdown of all noir including neo noir?
To clarify, two an be done at once, they just can't (currently) be done at once with the ballot software. They certainly can with the spreadsheet method, just a bit more logistical work there.
Might be a good candidate for a "host and co-host" kinda thing, to split the load a little.
I’m willing to host if Citizen truly wants out. I have been excited for a Noir countdown for a long time and don’t want to see it get booted.
Citizen Rules
10-23-23, 10:31 AM
I’m willing to host if Citizen truly wants out. I have been excited for a Noir countdown for a long time and don’t want to see it get booted.Bless you. I was hoping you might do it:)
Act III
10-23-23, 11:28 AM
The best films that havent already made it onto previous lists sounds great to me. There would need to be a big list with all those already listed movies on it in alphabetical order for quick and easy reference so that voters dont accidentally submit unqualified entries.
I don't know if I could commit to hosting. I have a lot on my plate right now at work and personally, but I'm willing to help in any way possible. So whoever hosts, I might be open to take a bit of the load off.
rauldc14
10-23-23, 11:56 AM
The best films that havent already made it onto previous lists sounds great to me. There would need to be a big list with all those already listed movies on it in alphabetical order for quick and easy reference so that voters dont accidentally submit unqualified entries.
It's already for sure Noir
Act III
10-23-23, 11:58 AM
It's already for sure Noir
Theres this noir lost already
https://www.movieforums.com/lists/bfi_100_film_noirs/edit.html
not good enough?
Theres this noir lost already
https://www.movieforums.com/lists/bfi_100_film_noirs/edit.html
not good enough?
That's the BFI list. The countdown would be to generate a MoFo list.
Act III
10-23-23, 12:06 PM
That's the BFI list. The countdown would be to generate a MoFo list.
Yes, but it will probably look almost the same with small differences. The other one would look nothing like any list before it. But being there is no topic to guide it, the scope would be broad and many more 1 votes will happen.
Yes, but it will probably look almost the same with small differences. The other one would look nothing like any list before it. But being there is no topic to guide it, the scope would be broad and many more 1 votes will happen.
We can say the same about any other countdown we've done where there is already an external existing list. Regardless, that was the purpose of this poll thread, and the majority voted for "Noir".
Act III
10-23-23, 12:14 PM
We can say the same about any other countdown we've done where there is already an external existing list. Regardless, that was the purpose of this poll thread, and the majority voted for "Noir".
Its still a great idea.
Citizen Rules
10-23-23, 12:23 PM
Its still a great idea.Agreed. We should do a Films Not on a Previous lists sometime. It did get 16 votes, the same as Decades Refresh got...and only 1 less than Musicals.
Next countdown we should have a discussion thread for brainstorming and working out potential countdown problems before we get the poll. Who knows what neat countdown ideas we all could come up with.
Holden Pike
10-24-23, 11:17 AM
I am still no fan of the Not-On-Previous-Lists idea, but if we do it, it should be after all of the genres are exhausted. As in after we do Musicals. Then you are looking at titles that didn't make it for any decade or any genre.
ScarletLion
10-24-23, 12:41 PM
I voted for underseen. Sounds a good idea with lots of potential for discovery. I'd guess there would be quite a few 1 pointers too!
Thursday Next
10-25-23, 02:21 AM
Could we not just do noir and neo noir consecutively? Maybe with a slightly shorter watch period for each.
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 02:50 AM
Could we not just do noir and neo noir consecutively? Maybe with a slightly shorter watch period for each.That would be a perfect solution. I don't see why we can't do that? Sean can host the Neo Noir countdown now. l believe he's thinking about letting people decide for themselves what is and isn't neo noir (like we did in the comedy countdown) that will result in a lot of movies....so it warrants classic Noir having it's own countdown done later.
I had also suggested this:
So a solution would be to run two countdowns of Top 50 each back to back. That way there's two countdowns (one for noir and another for neo noir) and so there would be two ballots (one ballot for each countdown). Seeing how the two countdowns would be only Top 50 the total time of presentation would be the same as a Top 100...and their 'watch periods' can run at the same time too so that this idea doesn't take one more day longer than any other countdown.
Miss Vicky
10-25-23, 03:14 AM
So a solution would be to run two countdowns of Top 50 each back to back. That way there's two countdowns (one for noir and another for neo noir) and so there would be two ballots (one ballot for each countdown). Seeing how the two countdowns would be only Top 50 the total time of presentation would be the same as a Top 100...and their 'watch periods' can run at the same time too so that this idea doesn't take one more day longer than any other countdown.
I don't see how this would work, unless you plan on just not using the voting software and doing everything with the spreadsheet instead. The only way to use the software would be to either have 2 different voting periods within that watch period (and it's difficult enough to get people to remember to submit their ballots on time without complicating things) or to have people submit one ballot via the voting software and the other via PM, which would then need to be entered into a spreadsheet. Either way I think it's just going to cause confusion.
I'm still of the opinion that if we're going to do noir, it should be a countdown with a single 10-25 film ballot from each participant that contains whatever percentage of noir and neo noir that each individual wants to vote for. Dividing it into separate ballots or separate countdowns will only result in no noirs getting any points from me. I can count on one hand the number of noirs that I would consider voting for (actually, I could chop off a couple of fingers and still use that hand to count them) and I have no desire to watch more so there's no way I'm getting to the minimum for a ballot of pure noir.
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 10:22 AM
I don't see how this would work, unless you plan on just not using the voting software and doing everything with the spreadsheet instead. The only way to use the software would be to either have 2 different voting periods within that watch period (and it's difficult enough to get people to remember to submit their ballots on time without complicating things) or to have people submit one ballot via the voting software and the other via PM, which would then need to be entered into a spreadsheet. Either way I think it's just going to cause confusion.
I'm still of the opinion that if we're going to do noir, it should be a countdown with a single 10-25 film ballot from each participant that contains whatever percentage of noir and neo noir that each individual wants to vote for. Dividing it into separate ballots or separate countdowns will only result in no noirs getting any points from me. I can count on one hand the number of noirs that I would consider voting for (actually, I could chop off a couple of fingers and still use that hand to count them) and I have no desire to watch more so there's no way I'm getting to the minimum for a ballot of pure noir.My previous idea won't work, Yoda had already said that. But Thursday's Next idea would work.
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 10:33 AM
...I can count on one hand the number of noirs that I would consider voting for (actually, I could chop off a couple of fingers and still use that hand to count them) and I have no desire to watch more so there's no way I'm getting to the minimum for a ballot of pure noir.That's the perfect example of why we do need a pure noir (40s-50s noir) countdown...as the majority of people won't be including many of them on their ballot if neo noirs are also included. It's clear from many of the post, including your post, that classic noir won't hardly be including on an All Noir Countdown. Holden said it best:
Yes, the big problem with Film Noir is defining what we mean by that. The actual period is from the '40s until the early '50s or so. Which is a very rich, interesting movement and has hundreds of titles even though it is only twelvish or so years. For those of us who are Film Noir nuts that is more than enough to make a Top 50 for absolute sure but probably even a Top 100. However, getting more than thirty or so MoFos to make super deep dives into the Classic Noir period is basically not gonna happen.
Which means opening it up to Neo Noir so that we could get participation into the sixty-or-so mark that we had for say the Westerns list. But the problem there is while there is plenty of bickering among Noir enthusiasts and scholars about what is and isn't part of the classic canon, when it comes to Neo Noir it is open to much wider interpretation. So wide that it would be difficult to argue too much with somebody about what should or shouldn't count. If somebody says Chinatown and Night Moves (1975), obviously the answer is yes. If somebody else says Body Heat and Blade Runner, yeah, you can see it. But then when it becomes every thriller ever made and somebody wants to include three of the Fast and the Furious flicks on their ballot and The Human Centipede and Donnie Darko and Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery and Spider-Man: Into the Spiderverse it will so dilute the group list that to call it "Noir" of any kind is just ridiculous. And if voters can completely make up their own definition that means all of the cooler, obscure actual Film Noir from the '40s and '50s has absolutely zero chance of making it and being discovered - which to me would be the point of such an exercise. Even the acknowledged classics of the genre would fall well behind David Fincher and Christopher Nolan movies so that something that by all rights and by any objective metric should be obvious Top Ten material on a Film Noir list - Double Indemnity, Out of the Past, The Postman Always Rings Twice, In a Lonely Place, The Asphalt Jungle, The Killing - would be well down the list if there at all...
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 10:38 AM
I took notes from past discussions and Yoda said this, which is also a good idea.
...I think maybe long-term it makes sense to decide that some of these are more focused, specialty lists, and to have a little less pomp and circumstance, maybe a host who hand-selects a panel of people who've expressed significant interest, make it a top 25 or something, and just do the whole process slightly differently. That would be my suggestion, at least. I like that (though a classic era Noir would need a top 50), Yoda are you still supportive of that idea? and @seanc (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=75240) you're the host what do you say about Yoda and Thursday's ideas?
I don't know if I agree that neo noir would dominate, but if it does...then isn't that just an accurate reflection of the site and its tastes? We're obviously not producing a definitive list for the entire cinematic world. We're not creating a time capsule to show the aliens which noirs to watch. We're capturing the site's collective opinion about something at a moment in time. Sometimes that opinion's gonna have a lot of recency bias and make a lot of diehards shake their heads, but that's just the nature of the thing.
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 11:12 AM
I don't know if I agree that neo noir would dominate, but if it does...then isn't that just an accurate reflection of the site and its tastes? We're obviously not producing a definitive list for the entire cinematic world. We're not creating a time capsule to show the aliens which noirs to watch. We're capturing the site's collective opinion about something at a moment in time. Sometimes that opinion's gonna have a lot of recency bias and make a lot of diehards shake their heads, but that's just the nature of the thing.I have only a few minutes before I leave for the day so I'll type fast:p
I view the list that are made from the countdowns as being something of importance, after all MoFo is a WWW site with a fair amount of clout that can be read by people all over the world. I personally don't see the reason for the list existing to document the MoFos taste or even as a fun game as Keyser wrote in the War countdown. To me that's a secondary thing and of less importance when it comes to a more specific countdowns like noir. I think a good noir list would count for something... However I can see that you are not supportive of a separate noir countdown, which is fair enough, every one gets to have an opinion.
I took notes from past discussions and Yoda said this, which is also a good idea.
I like that (though a classic era Noir would need a top 50), Yoda are you still supportive of that idea? and @seanc (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=75240) you're the host what do you say about Yoda and Thursday's ideas?
If I do end up hosting, I would just have an open voting system. I think this just creates less tension. I get wanting to have the list more pure. Myself, I will only be voting for classic Noir. Which means leaving off some true Neo films that I love very much. It may make for wonky list, we shall see. It sure worked well for comedy in my opinion, and people had the same types of concerns going into that one. If this opinion means people want a different host, I get that too. I will participate no matter how this all shakes out.
What lists are "for" is certainly not a question with an objective answer. But I think we can all agree they are some mix of:
1. To generate discussion.
2. To help people find (or convince them to finally watch) films they haven't seen.
3. To capture the taste of the community as a whole.
4. To create a list for posterity/celebrate the art form.
I think which restrictions people like or don't is largely going to be based on which of these things they give priority to. For me, it's mostly #1. And not in a "moar posts good" way, but in the sense that genuinely interesting discussions always seem to come out of it.
Of course, if someone's primary concern is #4, then that would explain why they feel strongly about what should or shouldn't be allowed: because they think of this as something we're sort of collectively vouching for, and it feels like their "name" could be on a list that doesn't reflect their tastes (or what they find important about the genre).
Holden Pike
10-25-23, 11:36 AM
In addition to diluting the list of bonafide classics by making "Noir" wide open to personal interpretation, it is also makes it much more difficult to get any real ballot consensus and have titles with three, five, seven, or twenty people voting for them. I suspect you're going to get a lot of, "Oh, yeah, well if I had considered that Noir, I definitely would have voted for it" after the fact.
I think it is disappointing that we are going from genre lists that were so rigidly defined that Jaws somehow didn't count as a Horror movie and just this last one where I had to remove Biloxi Blues from my War Movie ballot...to this proposed Noir/Neo Noir one where if somebody now wants to say Raiders of the Lost Ark or The Joker or LOTR: The Two Towers or The Da Vinci Code or Kung Fu Panda or The Fast & the Furious: Tokyo Drift or any other damn thing is Noir to them, sure, they may go ahead vote for it. It makes the list diluted and, ultimately, meaningless. I don't think it is a reflection of the site's taste. I think it is a reflection of the site not knowing enough about the genre it is compiling a list of. To the point of why even bother calling it Noir or doing it at all?
If our collective Top Hundred Horror list had titles in it that no self-respecting Horror fan even considers Horror on it, that would be embarrassing more than something to crow about. When it comes to the order of a list and snubs, yup, that is fair game that MoFo considers title A to be better than title Y, even though other sites or scholarly film books or whomever considers title Y to be cannon. But if the list is Ten Best Gene Hackman Movies and your list includes The Matrix and Casablanca, that is no longer taste or opinion, that is incorrect. I fear we are galloping headlong into that kind of a list.
I don't know about you, but when I Google movie lists, if when reading them I start hitting titles that are not simply just not my taste but do not logically belong on the list at all, I stop reading the list. Clearly that site or magazine or whoever didn't know their *****.
But...as you were. Have fun with your ballots.
rauldc14
10-25-23, 11:40 AM
In the end I don't really think many films have made a list that categorically they don't belong on. People will vote a few oddballs here and there on their lists but it really doesn't seem to affect the whole thing.
Holden Pike
10-25-23, 11:44 AM
In the end I don't really think many films have made a list that categorically they don't belong on. People will vote a few oddballs here and there on their lists but it really doesn't seem to affect the whole thing.
The only genre list that has been wide-open so far is the Comedy one. Both of the Horror, the Sci-Fi, the Westerns, the War, the Animated, and the Comic Book lists all had rules and titles that were deemed ineligible (even if the manner of how they were deemed ineligible changed or was debatable). Comedy is pretty damn subjective. To my understanding, Noir and Neo Noir are not. Debatable, sure, but not completely subjective.
But again, as you were.
Sure, someone could vote for Wedding Crashers as a noir, but would they? Would it end up on the list? I think it's more useful to talk about plausibilities than possibilities. The nature of an open vote is that people can do whatever and are trusted to, to some degree, police themselves. Put another way: If we don't trust the community as a whole to even vaguely define a genre, why would we trust their opinions about said genre?
The only logical coherent version of this I can come up with is that the restrictions would specifically drive away people with "bad" opinions and persuade them not to participate, thus keeping the list "purer" at the expense of participation, which is of course the classic push-pull of all list criteria.
Holden Pike
10-25-23, 12:25 PM
If we don't trust the community as a whole to even vaguely define a genre, why would we trust their opinions about said genre?
Partially I am pushing because I love this genre, true. But if any movie that is "dark" or involves some sort of crime is eligible, then that isn't a Noir list. My problem is that Crime and Suspense movies, some of which do overlap with Noir and Neo Noir but plenty of which do not, are going to flood the ballots so much that why are we insisting on calling it Noir? Call it Crime or Suspense or Thrillers or some much broader "genre", since I am positive that is what a lot of the ballots will be in a "define Noir however you want even if you don't really know what it is" system. The problem is not that many people will vote for The Wedding Crashers as Noir. It's that they will vote for The Silence of the Lambs and Mad Max: Fury Road and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. So let them vote for those, just don't call them Noir.
The only logical coherent version of this I can come up with is that the restrictions would specifically drive away people with "bad" opinions and persuade them not to participate, thus keeping the list "purer" at the expense of participation, which is of course the classic push-pull of all list criteria.
As a fan I do believe Noir and even Neo Noir is very likely too restrictive and debatable for a site-wide list. Or at least one that would get enough ballots to hit the same threshold as the previous genre lists. So why not go for "Thrillers" or "Crime Thrillers" or some catch all that will more accurately describe what the MoFo list that will draw fifty or sixty or more participants is going to be? Noir is, by in large (though not completely, and thus part of the problem), a subgenere to the wider category of crime/suspense/thriller, but you can really only start making that distinction if you know Noir super well. So why call our list this more specialized aspect when people are allowed to vote on the more general concept? Just stop calling it Noir, call it Thrillers or something, and have at it.
Partially I am pushing because I love this genre, true. But if any movie that is "dark" or involves some sort of crime is eligible, then that isn't a Noir list. My problem is that Crime and Suspense movies, some of which do overlap with Noir and Neo Noir but plenty of which do not, are going to flood the ballots so much that why are we insisting on calling it Noir? Call it Crime or Suspense or Thrillers or some much broader "genre", since I am positive that is what a lot of the ballots will be in a "define Noir however you want even if you don't really know what it is" system. The problem is not that many people will vote for The Wedding Crashers as Noir. It's that they will vote for The Silence of the Lambs and Mad Max: Fury Road and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. So let them vote for those, just don't call them Noir.
Maybe so, I'm not as sure as you, I guess. But I think the question applies either way: if we don't trust people to color within those lines, I don't know why we'd trust them to pick the "right" films, anyway. We're talking about a hypothetical where people have enough taste and judgment to pick good noirs if forced to, but not enough to define noir in the first place. I wonder if there are any such people. More likely, restricting the eligibility just causes those people not to participate. Which, I dunno, maybe that's preferable to people in this case.
As a fan I do believe Noir and even Neo Noir is very likely too restrictive and debatable for a site-wide list. Or at least one that would get enough ballots to hit the same threshold as the previous genre lists. So why not go for "Thrillers" or "Crime Thrillers" or some catch all that will more accurately describe what the MoFo list that will draw fifty or sixty or more participants is going to be? Noir is, by in large (though not completely, and thus part of the problem), a subgenere to the wider category of crime/suspense/thriller, but you can really only start making that distinction if you know Noir super well. So why call our list this more specialized aspect when people are allowed to vote on the more general concept? Just stop calling it Noir, call it Thrillers or something, and have at it.
I'd be fine with this, FWIW.
It's possible Noir is too specific to do a "normal" list with and would necessitate some kind of special process like the one I alluded to earlier, with a shortened period and a hand-selected panel of genre fans or something. That might be a good thing to just try once anyway, particularly since, if it goes well, it might open us up to a lot of other lists that would otherwise never happen/get much participation.
I will just throw this out there since the discussion is ripe. If I was to host, what would everyone think of me putting up another poll in regards to how specific or not to make the voting?
Holden Pike
10-25-23, 12:59 PM
I can only speak for myself, but as a Noir fan I would rather have a "Crime & Suspense Thrillers" or whatever you want to call it list with a handful of Noirs on it than a list that is called Noir but is chock full of dozens of non-Noir titles.
I can only speak for myself, but as a Noir fan I would rather have a "Crime & Suspense Thrillers" or whatever you want to call it list with a handful of Noirs on it than a list that is called Noir but is chock full of dozens of non-Noir titles.
I second this!
rauldc14
10-25-23, 01:56 PM
Well we want Noir in some capacity, it did win after all.
I think a poll wouldaybe be the fairest way to figure out how to go about all this. And honestly, whatever wins wins as it's majority.
rauldc14
10-25-23, 02:18 PM
I will just throw this out there since the discussion is ripe. If I was to host, what would everyone think of me putting up another poll in regards to how specific or not to make the voting?
I'm game. Let's roll!
Thursday Next
10-25-23, 02:20 PM
If we did noir and neo noir separately, people could choose to join in or not join in for each one. We might not have as many lists, but each would be representative of the participants and the genre as opposed to something so broad it's not really noir at all.
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 05:10 PM
Can't we all get along:) and compromise?
Why don't we do: What Holden said and call it a Crime Thriller countdown. Most all neo noirs are crime thrillers anyway, and to most people those labels are interchangeable and don't mean much. If the poll had said Crime Thriller instead of Neo Noir it probably would've had the same number of votes or even more.
Why don't we do: What Sean said and make a Crime Thriller countdown with open voting like in the comedy countdown. That will please the most people.
Why don't we do: What Thursday Next said and do a separate 40s-50s noir countdown after everyone had their fun with a big Crime Thriller countdown do a smaller more focused classic Noir countdown of Top 50. How does that idea hurt anyone? Or ruin their fun? It would make more fun especially for those who care about classic noir.
John Dumbear
10-25-23, 05:22 PM
Citizen Rules directing of this thread...
https://i.imgur.com/6042oVE.gif
:D
Holden Pike
10-25-23, 05:51 PM
Why don't we do: What Thursday Next said and do a separate 40s-50s noir countdown after everyone had their fun with a big Crime Thriller countdown do a smaller more focused classic Noir countdown of Top 50. How does that idea hurt anyone? Or ruin their fun? It would make more fun especially for those who care about classic noir.
Those of us MoFos who consider ourselves Noir Buffs if not Experts could potentially get together and make a master list of eligible titles for a hardcore, strict, original flavor Film Noir countdown and then anyone interested has a big ol' watchlist to work from. That way whether fifteen or thirty or seventy of us participated in the eventual balloting, there would be agreement on exactly what is and isn't eligible and what would result is a bonafide Classic Film Noir list that Eddie Muller himself would be proud of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lhiGczDD-k
Harry Lime
10-25-23, 06:15 PM
I vote for 90s redux!
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 06:55 PM
Those of us MoFos who consider ourselves Noir Buffs if not Experts could potentially get together and make a master list of eligible titles for a hardcore, strict, original flavor Film Noir countdown and then anyone interested has a big ol' watchlist to work from. That way whether fifteen or thirty or seventy of us participated in the eventual balloting, there would be agreement on exactly what is and isn't eligible and what would result is a bonafide Classic Film Noir list that Eddie Muller himself would be proud of.Sign me up! That's a perfect solution and very doable.
What says the rest of you film noir fans??? Do you dig?
Wyldesyde19
10-25-23, 07:12 PM
Whatever gets this going, sure.
I have a page saved from a year ago that has top 1000 Noirs but also includes Neo Noirs.
It’s from the site They Shoot Pictures, Don’t They?
Whatever gets this going, sure.
I have a page saved from a year ago that has top 1000 Noirs but also includes Neo Noirs.
It’s from the site They Shoot Pictures, Don’t They?
https://www.flickchart.com/Charts.aspx?franchise=1038
If you scroll down you can divide that list by decade as well.
Drawing a line between Noir/Neo-Noir makes the most sense...two lists. Thriller is more a theme than a genre anyways
MovieFan1988
10-25-23, 08:55 PM
https://www.backstage.com/magazine/article/neo-noir-films-75751/
A site I found that talks about Noir and Neo Noir, I have never heard of Tech, Superhero and Neon Noir before sounds interesting though.
I think that we need to acclimate ourselves to a couple of things. First, that by definition, this is a niche topic. Certainly more niche than war, horror, comedies, or probably any other countdown that has been done here. Moreso if we limit ourselves to the strict classic era definition of 20 years (1940-1959). So, in all fairness, I wouldn't expect more than 40-50 ballots here, and that's being generous (we had 50+ in the war countdown, right?).
The other thing that we need to acclimate ourselves is that the definition of what is "film noir" has never been fully settled on. Experts through the years have tried to define it and, although there is some general consensus in some of the main traits, there are always some differing opinions in terms of what it is, what makes a film a "film noir", and in whether this or that film are or aren't "film noir". So if even film experts and scholars haven't agreed in some crucial aspects of these, we shouldn't expect MoFo to settle that debate either.
What we can do is settle some boundaries, just like we've done on past countdowns, and then let the chips fall where they may. I said it before and I'll say it again; I see no difference in doing that here than in what we did for the war countdown.
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 09:54 PM
We've done niche countdowns before with low ballot submission. They were fun and rewarding for the people who were interested in them. They were all worth doing.
The MoFo Top 50 Pre-1930 Countdown: The List (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=60190)
30 ballots submitted
The MoFo Top 100 Films Directed By Women: The Countdown (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=57522)
38 ballots submitted
Movie Forums: Top Comic Book Movies (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=35265)
35 ballots submitted
We've done niche countdowns before with low ballot submission. They were fun and rewarding for the people who were interested in them. They were all worth doing.
The MoFo Top 50 Pre-1930 Countdown: The List (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=60190)
30 ballots submitted
The MoFo Top 100 Films Directed By Women: The Countdown (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=57522)
38 ballots submitted
Movie Forums: Top Comic Book Movies (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=35265)
35 ballots submitted
I agree. Wasn't saying it was a "negative". Just that we should expect that low participation.
Citizen Rules
10-25-23, 10:11 PM
I agree. Wasn't saying it was a "negative". Just that we should expect that low participation.I know, that's why I repped your post:) I was going with what you said and adding to it with some stats.
I know, that's why I repped your post:) I was going with what you said and adding to it with some stats.
https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNDJkcDhzemJlNDYyZGs0YWd2OXJxcmU0N2dpbDZzMGJ6YmJ1aXphcCZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfY nlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/b5L1Lt3k4hGNDZWVIw/giphy.gif
Just found this video and I thought it was very good, brief, and concise...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMNltwCjRo8
No matter what decades or years we try to restrict this to, I am putting Blade Runner on my ballot. Just sayin! ;)
Wyldesyde19
10-26-23, 02:34 PM
No matter what decades or years we try to restrict this to, I am putting Blade Runner on my ballot. Just sayin! ;)
Blade Runner would work for Neo noir, although it is more often referred to Tech Noir.
But yes, it would work
Still?! 10 pages?! Isn't voting supposed to circumvent this? Oh wait, I forgot what century I'm living in, my bad.
Citizen Rules
10-26-23, 07:19 PM
Think about this: the poll shows Noir winning, not Neo-Noir. There's no mention of Neo-Noir anywhere in that poll.
As Holden has pointed out they are two different things and not interchangeable. Noir is only 40s-50s. When I voted for Noir I was voting for 40s-50s Noir and I'm sure so was a lot of other people.
Neo Noir only got into the conversation because I said in the 3rd post I would host and run one countdown with two different ballots (which won't work with the board's software)...It's not really fair voting to have people vote for Noir and then change the idea to include Neo-Noir, hence the solution is what Thursday Next said, two countdowns one done after the other.
John W Constantine
10-26-23, 07:22 PM
...or maybe a 90s/refresh to circumvent this mass hysteria.
rauldc14
10-26-23, 07:33 PM
Feel like we are just spinning wheels in dirt at this point
Lets not forget if you do the noir and neo-noir list...that's it it's done we can end this 3+ year conversation
Citizen Rules
10-26-23, 08:27 PM
Lets not forget if you do the noir and neo-noir list...that's it it's done we can end this 3+ year conversationBest post on the page.
If people didn't go on about making it just one countdown, we wouldn't have to have this long discussion. I wanted to start a noir countdown on Nov 1st....of this year! Not next:D
Can you lead me to the post where you explain the logistics of your idea to make two lists/countdowns? Just want to see how it would work. Thanks
Citizen Rules
10-26-23, 11:00 PM
Can you lead me to the post where you explain the logistics of your idea to make two lists/countdowns? Just want to see how it would work. ThanksLike I said it was the 3rd post on this thread.
Like I said it was the 3rd post on this thread.
I would say that you should wait until you get the ballots before deciding on 50-100 lists, You are likely going to have 50 noirs but 100 neo-noirs which is going to look and feel like a normal countdown.
Whatever gets this going, sure.
I have a page saved from a year ago that has top 1000 Noirs but also includes Neo Noirs.
It’s from the site They Shoot Pictures, Don’t They?
I think this is a pretty good list to set boundaries.
TSPDT - 1,000 Noir Files (https://theyshootpictures.com/noir1000.htm)
It is a list curated by an expert, it's fairly open to include classic noirs and neo-noirs (which, to be honest, is the case with most list of noirs), but still not so loose as to allow for people to vote for "Jurassic Park or Lord of the Rings" :laugh: Why don't we use it as our metric? If it's on this list, it's valid.
Harry Lime
10-26-23, 11:34 PM
What's the score here? What's next?
Ok, in an effort to break out of this "impasse", I *might* be interested in hosting this. That is if Citizen and sean are out. Like I said, I currently have a lot on my plate, both professionally and personally, but I would really love to see this being done.
Citizen Rules
10-27-23, 02:57 AM
Ok, in an effort to break out of this "impasse", I *might* be interested in hosting this. That is if Citizen and sean are out. Like I said, I currently have a lot on my plate, both professionally and personally, but I would really love to see this being done.I believe Sean is still in and I'm talking to him by messages. I'm still trying to put something together too so maybe I just might return:cool:. Stay tuned.
I’m sorry to do this, but what I am really interested in is watching Noir for the next couple months. I will totally participate no matter how this shakes out, but it seems like we have a couple other mofos who want to do the hosting more, and would be much better suited.
I am here if the eventual host needs behind the scenes help.
Sorry if this causes more commotion, but I feel it’s better than me doing a lousy job.
Holden Pike
10-27-23, 12:07 PM
I think this is a pretty good list to set boundaries.
TSPDT - 1,000 Noir Files (https://theyshootpictures.com/noir1000.htm)
It is a list curated by an expert, it's fairly open to include classic noirs and neo-noirs (which, to be honest, is the case with most list of noirs), but still not so loose as to allow for people to vote for "Jurassic Park or Lord of the Rings" :laugh: Why don't we use it as our metric? If it's on this list, it's valid.
Because then why makes our own? Just to reorder his?
I assume the idea is that that's a list representing the genre, not a ranking itself. And I think that's an important distinction because, otherwise, you could say any list we do is just a reordering of the "list" that contains all eligible films.
Citizen Rules
10-27-23, 12:12 PM
OK Sean is out, I'm back in. But I can't host two countdowns because one of the countdowns has to have the ballots done the old way where they're sent to the host and the host tallies them up. I can do the ballots the old way for the Noir countdown. The Neo Noir countdown would use the new ballot software which is easy for whoever host it.
So we need a host for the Neo Noir countdown it ain't hard to do. @Thief (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=109353) or anyone else, wanna volunteer???
I assume the idea is that that's a list representing the genre, not a ranking itself. And I think that's an important distinction because, otherwise, you could say any list we do is just a reordering of the "list" that contains all eligible films.
Exactly. Any list that we make is working on a finite amount of films, so technically they're all a "reordering" of someone else's list. Heck, if we went for classic film noir, as some of you are requesting, I'm sure we'd be working on a much smaller list of possibilities. Here you have 1,000. Even for such a niche subject, that's quite a lot to choose from. It's curated by an expert, and I think offers a fair middle ground for those that want classic film noir represented, and for those that are not that versed in the topic but still would like to participate.
MovieFan1988
10-27-23, 06:26 PM
Think about this: the poll shows Noir winning, not Neo-Noir. There's no mention of Neo-Noir anywhere in that poll.
As Holden has pointed out they are two different things and not interchangeable. Noir is only 40s-50s. When I voted for Noir I was voting for 40s-50s Noir and I'm sure so was a lot of other people.
Neo Noir only got into the conversation because I said in the 3rd post I would host and run one countdown with two different ballots (which won't work with the board's software)...It's not really fair voting to have people vote for Noir and then change the idea to include Neo-Noir, hence the solution is what Thursday Next said, two countdowns one done after the other.
What if half the votes for Noir were because of the two different ballot idea with neo noir which is why I voted for noir. But now the idea isn't going to work, so I guess were just going to be stuck with movies only in the 40s and 50s?
I believe the wrench has already been thrown in, so why not just do an all noir countdown.
Noir and Neo Noir may have their differences but it's still in the same genre.
MovieFan1988
10-27-23, 06:36 PM
I was just looking at what movies qualify for Neo Noir because some people are saying they don't watch them... Well good grief!...Some of the biggest films and best loved films are tagged neo noir. Anyone ever hear of a little movie called Taxi Driver? or Chinatown ? or Dark City? or Reservoir Dogs? Oldboy? Memento? Mulholland Drive?. Literally the most popular films are Neo Noirs. A few more:
Nightcrawler, No Country for Old Men, Shutter Island, The Long Goodbye, The Man from Nowhere, The Man Who Wasn't There,
The Usual Suspects, To Live and Die in L.A., True Confessions,
Zodiac. That list could go on and one and on. I bet more MoFos have seen Neo Noir movies than they've seen of war movies and the war countdown kicked ass! So yeah a noir countdown will be fun:)
And this is why Neo Noir needs to be involved, more options to choose from then just black and white movies in the 40s and 50s, the Noir genre represents more than that.
Like I said before this might be a lot of work but with the right research and wanting to make this a good noir list without surrendering some restrictions to the point where "well anyone can vote for anything that they think is a noir movie" I think we'll be good to go.
Citizen Rules
10-27-23, 06:58 PM
What if half the votes for Noir were because of the two different ballot idea with neo noir which is why I voted for noir. You're absolutely right. After I made the 3rd post on this thread and said I would have two ballots (classic noir & neo noir), some people then chose to vote for noir because they liked the neo noir part....and of course some only meant to vote for classic noir.
But now the idea isn't going to work, so I guess were just going to be stuck with movies only in the 40s and 50s?No, we won't be stuck with just 40s and 50s noir. We need to get neo noir in there too. I knew that from day one that most people like neo noir and only some classic noir fans. So that's why I've been campaigning for two separate list. It's twice the fun and won't take any longer than a regular countdown and it will be faster than the War countdown was. It doesn't take away anyone's fun by trying something a little different this time.
And this is why Neo Noir needs to be involved, more options to choose from then just black and white movies in the 40s and 50s, the Noir genre represents more than that.
Like I said before this might be a lot of work but with the right research and wanting to make this a good noir list without surrendering some restrictions to the point where "well anyone can vote for anything that they think is a noir movie" I think we'll be good to go. So no worries everyone will get their cake and get to eat it too🙂
MovieFan1988
10-27-23, 07:17 PM
You're absolutely right. After I made the 3rd post on this thread and said I would have two ballots (classic noir & neo noir), some people then chose to vote for noir because they liked the neo noir part....and of course some only meant to vote for classic noir.
No, we won't be stuck with just 40s and 50s noir. We need to get neo noir in there too. I knew that from day one that most people like neo noir and only some classic noir fans. So that's why I've been campaigning for two separate list. It's twice the fun and won't take any longer than a regular countdown and it will be faster than the War countdown was. It doesn't take away anyone's fun by trying something a little different this time.
So no worries everyone will get their cake and get to eat it too🙂
👍 Sounds good, I'm sure you'll do a good job at this
Miss Vicky
10-27-23, 07:37 PM
I'm assuming that even with two list curators, there's still only going to be 50 Noir movies and 50 Neo-Noir movies?
Because if so that takes away any desire I have to explore Neo Noir, since the chances of any one film making the cut have been - rather arbitrarily IMO - slashed dramatically. Each established favorite of mine is going to need as many points as it can possibly get since a Neo Noir movie could get significantly more points than whatever the 50th most popular Noir film was, but still not make the countdown because it wasn't at least the 50th most popular Neo-Noir. If you're going to separate them and insist that they are different genres, then actually separate them and give each one a proper countdown like every other genre had instead of this truncated BS or at the very least put up a poll to decide if the MoFo community (rather than just a vocal minority) wants separate lists or a combined one before starting. :rolleyes:
Citizen Rules
10-27-23, 08:23 PM
I'm assuming that even with two list curators, there's still only going to be 50 Noir movies and 50 Neo-Noir movies?
...That's the general idea, I really don't think there's enough interest in either to do a full 100. Though myself I wouldn't mind doing a full top 100. So I'll follow what Chypmunk did for the Pre1930s and use his formula:
... if we get enough movies to qualify (being on a minimum of 2 lists and a total points accumulation of 25 or more - standard criteria I believe?) for a Top 50, Top 75 or even a Top 100 then that is what I shall produce.
Diehl40
10-27-23, 10:38 PM
Do we have two ballots? Will each ballot have 25 entries? I know you don't have details yet, but will need to balance my viewing between classic and neo noir according to requirements.
That's the general idea, I really don't think there's enough interest in either to do a full 100. Though myself I wouldn't mind doing a full top 100. So I'll follow what Chypmunk did for the Pre1930s and use his formula:
Citizen Rules
10-27-23, 10:56 PM
Do we have two ballots? Will each ballot have 25 entries? I know you don't have details yet, but will need to balance my viewing between classic and neo noir according to requirements.Two ballots of 25 each, with the usual 10 minimum.
Diehl40
10-27-23, 11:19 PM
Thanks
Two ballots of 25 each, with the usual 10 minimum.
rauldc14
10-30-23, 03:34 PM
So I see the poll closes tomorrow....
Citizen Rules
10-30-23, 03:46 PM
I'm all ready to start the Noir preliminary countdown thread on Noirvember 1st! And have a lot of activities planned to support it.
Thief will be hosting the Neo Noir countdown and will decided what rules and guidelines to use. Thief kicked ass on the last countdown he hosted so the Neo Noir countdown should be awesome!
rauldc14
10-30-23, 03:55 PM
Will be interesting
GulfportDoc
10-31-23, 07:45 PM
I'm all ready to start the Noir preliminary countdown thread on Noirvember 1st! And have a lot of activities planned to support it.
Thief will be hosting the Neo Noir countdown and will decided what rules and guidelines to use. Thief kicked ass on the last countdown he hosted so the Neo Noir countdown should be awesome!
Sounds good. Presumably a guideline will have to be set determining what years should separate noir from neo-noir. For example, classic noir from 1941 thru 1959. Neo-noir beyond that. Whatever the hosts decide between them.
mrblond
11-01-23, 01:22 PM
I'm all ready to start the Noir preliminary countdown thread on Noirvember 1st! And have a lot of activities planned to support it.
Thief will be hosting the Neo Noir countdown and will decided what rules and guidelines to use. Thief kicked ass on the last countdown he hosted so the Neo Noir countdown should be awesome!
Is there a final decision which of these is when?
Personally, I'd like them almost simultaneously. Meaning, the final presentation to be one after another immediately.
Citizen Rules
11-01-23, 01:35 PM
Is there a final decision which of these is when?
Personally, I'd like them almost simultaneously. Meaning, the final presentation to be one after another immediately.I'm still talking to Thief who's hosting the New Noir countdown. It's up to him how he does that countdown but I think both countdowns might run at the same time, so yeah like simultaneously is very possible.
BTW I just started the The MoFo Top Film Noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=2420578#post2420578)
and a Noir Hall of Fame thread (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=69067) Check them out!
rauldc14
11-01-23, 01:36 PM
I think it would be cool to have two separate dueling thread countdowns the more I think about it!
Citizen Rules
11-01-23, 01:46 PM
I think it would be cool to have two separate dueling thread countdowns the more I think about it! @Thief (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=109353) you hear that!:p I think so too, let's hope.
Harry Lime
11-01-23, 09:48 PM
Yes if I had a vote both would be running at the same time, in the same thread, each posting one a day.
Miss Vicky
11-08-23, 02:00 AM
Thief Yoda
The Noir countdown preliminary thread has been up for almost a week. What’s the eta on Neo Noir?
Thief Yoda
The Noir countdown preliminary thread has been up for almost a week. What’s the eta on Neo Noir?
Soon. Real life has been merciless with me this week (month? year!?), but we also thought it would be good to let the Noir one fly a bit before putting the Neo-noir one out. But my expectations are to have something up within the next 2 or 3 days.
As promised!
The MoFo Top Neo-noir Countdown - Preliminary Thread (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=2422196#post2422196)
John W Constantine
05-03-24, 02:35 PM
Hello? Anyone there?
Citizen Rules
05-03-24, 08:31 PM
Hello? Anyone there?Apparently not. Hard to believe no one seems interested in the next countdown. In the past we've talked about it before the current countdown even ended. So I guess if no one cares, I'll decide: The next countdown is Proto Noir;):cool:
Wyldesyde19
05-03-24, 08:39 PM
We need a new poll set up
Citizen Rules
05-03-24, 08:59 PM
We need a new poll set upYup...Yoda usually does that, but in the meantime we could discuss what should be next so that Yoda knows what should be the choices for the poll.
Wyldesyde19
05-03-24, 09:02 PM
Musicals are an option, and of course I wouldn’t mind taking another look at refreshing past decades. Particularly those that are over a decade old. That would be the 90’s and 70’s
rauldc14
05-03-24, 09:22 PM
Musicals deserves it due
Citizen Rules
05-03-24, 09:25 PM
Musicals deserves it dueYup. Even if some of us aren't into that, it's only fair as alot of MoFos have been waiting for that. It's also the only AFI/BFI list on the MoFo list section that the MoFo community hasn't done on their own.
John W Constantine
05-03-24, 09:29 PM
Decades refresh, 90s.
Miss Vicky
05-03-24, 09:31 PM
I'm still holding out hope for an animation redux. I'm also still willing to host it.
John W Constantine
05-03-24, 09:32 PM
I'm still holding out hope for an animation redux. I'm also still willing to host it.
I support this.
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