Movie Forums Top 100 of the 2010s - Group Watch

[rauldc14]

I like Ferrell so you never know

[Citizen Rules]

I like Ferrell so you never knowThat's 2 votes at least.

[cricket]

But if you don't vote for what you love, something gets votes that shouldn't. Then the final countdown is not true.

[SpelingError]

I would assume something like Real Steel has no real shot at the countdown though, no?
Probably not.

[rauldc14]

But if you don't vote for what you love, something gets votes that shouldn't. Then the final countdown is not true.

Never really has been to be honest. I usually don't vote this way for the record but there are a ton of people who do.

[cricket]

Never really has been to be honest. I usually don't vote this way for the record but there are a ton of people who do.

I know we do see it a lot. Personally I don't get it.

[Miss Vicky]

But if you don't vote for what you love, something gets votes that shouldn't. Then the final countdown is not true.

Also you don’t actually know what other people are going to vote for, so your assumption that a personal favorite won’t make it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if you leave it off your ballot because it’s possible that your vote would’ve nudged it onto the countdown.

[cricket]

Real Steel

3

https://66.media.tumblr.com/2b66614702a4a272618d886a6410d350/tumblr_omba5k90sW1rz9hl6o1_250.gifv

The father is presented as horrible, and the whole film is generic, corny, and predictable. It was ok though because I looked at it from the standpoint of it being a kid's movie, which I do think it is. Viewing it that way I was able to enjoy it all the way through. The highlights for me were all of the fight scenes. They were fun and I thought they were done well. As a longtime sports fan I always like a good underdog story almost to the point of no matter what. It's not a movie to be taken seriously.

[Takoma11]

To my great shock, my library does not have Real Steel and I'll have to order it from another branch. I'll try to get to it, but probably won't get to watch it before the deadline in this thread. Sorry!

Also you don’t actually know what other people are going to vote for, so your assumption that a personal favorite won’t make it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if you leave it off your ballot because it’s possible that your vote would’ve nudged it onto the countdown.

This. I had a few films on the last countdown that I figure would get zero votes, but other people voted for them too! And a few personal favorites that I thought would languish in the bottom 20 or so made it to the top half or higher.

The idea of submitting a ballot that's been designed to get the most movies on the list and not actually that person's favorite movies is so off-putting. It's like if someone asked you what your favorite song was and instead of answering honestly you just said a song you like pretty well that you thought a lot of people would recognize. Like, why?

[Wyldesyde19]

Was hoping to watch this one, but looks like I’ll be unable to. Hoping to watch the next nomination.

[gbgoodies]

89639
Real Steal (2011)


It started out a little off for me and I didn't like the bull fighting the robot scene. I couldn't watch some of that and yeah I know the bull was mostly CG when it was being hit by the robot. But then the movie hooked me and I found Hugh Jackman's character to be colorfully interesting. I liked how he was basically a good guy but sorta a dumbass in his decisions. Then when the kid came into the mix I thought it might be a case of too-cuteness but I liked the kid as he was a smartass and angry at the start of their relationship and that felt believable. I dug the bot fighting, that was pretty cool I must say and who doesn't love a underdog winning. Real Steal is like Karate Kid with heavy machinery...I liked it and had a good time watching it on Halloween eve.


I didn't like the bull fighting scene either, but the rest of the movie is so good that it makes up for it.

Thanks for watching it. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

[gbgoodies]

I would assume something like Real Steel has no real shot at the countdown though, no?


It's one of only a few movies that are probably locks for my list. :)

[gbgoodies]

I'm getting a headache even thinking about my list I want to submit. Mainly because I'm not sure what has a chance and what doesn't and don't really want to waste votes on things that won't make it this time.


Your list should be based on the movies that you love, not based on the movies that you think other people love.

[gbgoodies]

That's exactly what I'm doing this time. I don't want to waste a vote on a movie only I love...and I don't want to waste a vote on a movie everyone loves that doesn't need my help. I want to get some of my favorites in the countdown, though I don't think most of them will make it unless everyone becomes big fans of Will Ferrell and Jack Black real soon!:p


Then don't bother wasting your votes on movies like Parasite, Fury Road, La La Land, Moonlight, Tree Of Life, Shape Of Water, The Master, Call Me By Your Name, Wolf Of Wall Street, and Once Upon A Time In Hollywood, because they're predicted to be in the top ten, so they don't need your help. ;)


From the Preliminary Thread (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?p=2343707#post2343707):

I will be surprised if Parasite and Fury Road aren’t 1 and 1A. Here’s my guess for the rest of the top ten in no particular order: LA La Land, Moonlight, Tree Of Life, Shape Of Water, The Master, Call Me By Your Name, Wolf Of Wall Street, and Once Upon A Time In Hollywood


And if everyone votes the same way you do, we might get a top ten that's a complete surprise. :rolleyes:

[gbgoodies]

Never really has been to be honest. I usually don't vote this way for the record but there are a ton of people who do.


My list is always my favorite movies, regardless of whether or not they might make the countdown. (Which is probably why I rarely have more than 1 or 2 movies on my list that make the top ten of any countdown.)

[gbgoodies]

Real Steel

3

https://66.media.tumblr.com/2b66614702a4a272618d886a6410d350/tumblr_omba5k90sW1rz9hl6o1_250.gifv

The father is presented as horrible, and the whole film is generic, corny, and predictable. It was ok though because I looked at it from the standpoint of it being a kid's movie, which I do think it is. Viewing it that way I was able to enjoy it all the way through. The highlights for me were all of the fight scenes. They were fun and I thought they were done well. As a longtime sports fan I always like a good underdog story almost to the point of no matter what. It's not a movie to be taken seriously.


I don't think of Real Steel as a "kid's movie", but even at my age, I'm still a kid at heart, so I love it.

I rarely like the fight scenes in movies, but I loved the final fight scene in this movie.

Thanks for watching it. I'm glad you enjoyed it. :)

[Citizen Rules]

Your list should be based on the movies that you love, not based on the movies that you think other people love.

Then don't bother wasting your votes on movies like Parasite, Fury Road, La La Land, Moonlight, Tree Of Life, Shape Of Water, The Master, Call Me By Your Name, Wolf Of Wall Street, and Once Upon A Time In Hollywood, because they're predicted to be in the top ten, so they don't need your help. ;)


From the Preliminary Thread (https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?p=2343707#post2343707):


And if everyone votes the same way you do, we might get a top ten that's a complete surprise. :rolleyes:

My list is always my favorite movies, regardless of whether or not they might make the countdown. (Which is probably why I rarely have more than 1 or 2 movies on my list that make the top ten of any countdown.)

Of course I never vote for a film that I don't love, that would be silly and I certainly don't vote for movies because other people love them:rolleyes: unless I love them too...But I have a huge list of at least 50 or more films that I'd like to have on my ballot, so I have to find ways to weed them out until I hit 25...I think we all have that problem. So we have to find ways to decide between movie A and movie B and movie C and so on. How does one decide? I can't personally say I love movie B more than movie C, I don't relate to movies that way and nothing in my decision making process is binary it's all shades of gray. So I'm looking for other criteria to help me decide which films get cut. Example, I ask myself: am I voting for what I only enjoy and if so that might mean giving up a ballot spot to a fun but not great movie. Or should I vote for what I think is a great film regardless if I personally love it or not (as long as I didn't dislike it)? Or is it more important to get recognition for films that I think are worthy and need the recognition because without my help they might not make the ballot?

So let's say I love a film because it's a fun watch for me, but I know it's not really all that great of a movie (say like Real Steal, it was fun but I know it's just a popcorn Hollywood film), then my preference is not to include it on my ballot as I rather give that honor to a movie that is more than just a fun 'comfort' movie but is also amazing in it's construction and dynamics.

[Chypmunk]

Real miserable day here weather-wise so I rewatched Real Steel this morning, the robot-on-robot fights are certainly fun and make it a worthwhile watch but I feel just the same about the pat Spielbergian type of tale as I did on my initial watch - simply not really my cup of treacle.

[rauldc14]

I think it's getting a little misconstrued this whole voting process thing. I'd say it's such a tight race from 1-50 on my ballot (well, more say 15-50) that I feel disappointed if I waste a vote on something not making it to see something in that 26-50 range miss out literally because I didn't give it anything. So definitely the process will be thought out in detail to try to avoid things like this from happening if I feel it's possible.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

WrinkledMind
Citizen Rules
cricket

[SpelingError]

Nomination #17

89648

Capernaum (2018, Nadine Labaki)

Deadline to Watch It: November 5

Nominated By: cricket

[seanc]

Caperneum was really good. I watched it a few weeks ago based on MV and Cricket’s response to it. I think everyone should like this one. Good choice

[Chypmunk]

I'll have to see if this one is available to me, will watch if it is.

edit: sadly not on either Amazon Prime or Netflix here.

[cricket]

I'll have to see if this one is available to me, will watch if it is.

edit: sadly not on either Amazon Prime or Netflix here.

Come on bud, bring back a little of that rebel in you.

[Chypmunk]

Come on bud, bring back a little of that rebel in you.
Ooooh, is it on YouTube then?
:D

[Miss Vicky]

I watched this in September on Cricket's recommendation. Great movie.

https://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/2010s/capernaum.gif

Capernaum (Capharnaüm) (Nadine Labaki, 2018)
(Recommended by cricket)

This movie was incredible, but also incredibly devastating to watch. It's always tough to watch films where children suffer from abuse and neglect, but this one hit me harder than most I've seen. Zain Al Rafeea gives a potent performance as Zain, an impoverished Lebanese boy who flees home after his 11 year old sister is sold into marriage. It's really amazing that Zain had not acted before and was discovered on the streets by the film's director.

It's a lot to ask of an adolescent boy to carry an entire film, but - owing much to his real life of poverty - he does it incredibly well. The movie and his performance feel absolutely authentic. This is a young man who has been failed by his parents and by society, who is forced to become an adult at an age when he should still be very much a child. Even when he leaves home and finds the help of a sympathetic adult, he must take on responsibilities that no 12 year old should ever have.

The movie does end on a hopeful note, but if you haven't seen it before, I'd advise keeping a box of tissues close at hand. I'm always very hesitant to give any first-time watch a rating higher than 4, but I think this one deserves it and it is definitely a contender for my ballot.

4.5

[SpelingError]

I'll check it out tomorrow.

[gbgoodies]

Of course I never vote for a film that I don't love, that would be silly and I certainly don't vote for movies because other people love them:rolleyes: unless I love them too...But I have a huge list of at least 50 or more films that I'd like to have on my ballot, so I have to find ways to weed them out until I hit 25...I think we all have that problem. So we have to find ways to decide between movie A and movie B and movie C and so on. How does one decide? I can't personally say I love movie B more than movie C, I don't relate to movies that way and nothing in my decision making process is binary it's all shades of gray. So I'm looking for other criteria to help me decide which films get cut. Example, I ask myself: am I voting for what I only enjoy and if so that might mean giving up a ballot spot to a fun but not great movie. Or should I vote for what I think is a great film regardless if I personally love it or not (as long as I didn't dislike it)? Or is it more important to get recognition for films that I think are worthy and need the recognition because without my help they might not make the ballot?

So let's say I love a film because it's a fun watch for me, but I know it's not really all that great of a movie (say like Real Steal, it was fun but I know it's just a popcorn Hollywood film), then my preference is not to include it on my ballot as I rather give that honor to a movie that is more than just a fun 'comfort' movie but is also amazing in it's construction and dynamics.


That's basically the difference between making a list of the "best" movies versus making a list of your "favorite" movies.

Everyone has to decide their own way to trim their list down to 25 movies, and you can decide if it should be "best" movies or "favorite" movies, but you shouldn't base your list on what movies you think will be on other people's lists.

[gbgoodies]

Real miserable day here weather-wise so I rewatched Real Steel this morning, the robot-on-robot fights are certainly fun and make it a worthwhile watch but I feel just the same about the pat Spielbergian type of tale as I did on my initial watch - simply not really my cup of treacle.


Thanks for watching the movie. I'm sorry that it didn't work out for you, but I hope you at least enjoyed the fun parts of the movie.

[Wyldesyde19]

Wish I could have watched Real Steel. I’ve been meaning to. Likewise with Capernaum, as I am interested in anything by Labaki.

It isn’t available on anything streaming so I’ll have to miss this as well. 😒

[Daniel M]

I recorded Capernaum recently as it was on Film4 over here in the UK. I'll try my best to watch it soon and let you guys know what I think.

[Chypmunk]

I recorded Capernaum recently as it was on Film4 over here in the UK. I'll try my best to watch it soon and let you guys know what I think.
Awwww poop, I missed that as could have DVR'd it too :( Hopefully they'll rotate it back in at some point and I'll actually notice :D

[Miss Vicky]

For those in the U.S. with a valid library card, Capernaum is on Kanopy.

[SpelingError]

Wish I could have watched Real Steel. I’ve been meaning to. Likewise with Capernaum, as I am interested in anything by Labaki.

It isn’t available on anything streaming so I’ll have to miss this as well. 😒

I sent you a link.

[Takoma11]

For those in the U.S. with a valid library card, Capernaum is on Kanopy.

Thank you for posting this! It's not listed as being on Kanopy on JustWatch, so I thought I was out of luck.

I'll see if I can get to it tonight or tomorrow.

[Miss Vicky]

Thank you for posting this! It's not listed as being on Kanopy on JustWatch, so I thought I was out of luck.

I'll see if I can get to it tonight or tomorrow.

Well crap, I checked it yesterday and it came up, but now it isn't. So... maybe not anymore?

[mark f]

It's on STARZ.

[Takoma11]

Well crap, I checked it yesterday and it came up, but now it isn't. So... maybe not anymore?

:(

It may have left at the end of October.

I do really want to see it though. I won't get to it by the deadline, but it's the next DVD I'll get from Netflix.

[gbgoodies]

I watched Capernaum (2018), and while it wasn't really my type of movie, it was better than I expected. This was a very depressing movie, but on the plus side, at least it had a happy ending, and I was very impressed with the acting by the kid who played Zain.

[SpelingError]

Current candidates to host the next round...

seanc
Miss Vicky
gbgoodies

You guys have about 24 hours left to watch the film.

[SpelingError]

Also, I just finished Capernaum, and I really enjoyed it.

[WrinkledMind]

I just watched Capernaum. That was depressive and hard to watch at times. It felt very realistic, almost documentary like, and it explains when you find out who the actors are. Almost shed a tear there, and that is quite uncommon for me even with tough flicks.


Good recommendation cricket

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

WrinkledMind

NOTE: The reason I removed the names on the prior page is that those people all nominated two films in this thread, while WrinkledMind, who posted his thoughts after my 24 hour reminder, has only nominated one film in this thread.

[SpelingError]

Nomination #18

89684

Marshland (2014, Alberto Rodríguez)

Deadline to Watch It: November 8

Nominated By: WrinkledMind

[WrinkledMind]

La Isla Minima is on my list.


Also, if you are a fan of True Detective Season One, you will most probably love this cause it gives similar vibes.

[Wyldesyde19]

Perfect. This one is on Tubi. I’ll get to it this weekend.

[Takoma11]

I liked Marshland but didn't quite love it. I'll post some thoughts about it later.

Despite me being a bit mixed on it, it's a film I would definitely recommend as I could see a lot of people really liking it.

[Chypmunk]

Decent movie, wouldn't object to this making the countdown even if it's not quite in the running for my personal ballot. Probably won't rewatch it for this as it's not that long ago I saw it.

[cricket]

Watched is last month. Thought it was an excellent True Detective like thriller. Good looking, strong performances, and kept me on the edge of my seat the whole time. I put it on my list of contenders for my ballot but it won't quite make it. I almost nominated it instead of Capernaum.

[cricket]

La Isla Minima is on my list.


Also, if you are a fan of True Detective Season One, you will most probably love this cause it gives similar vibes.

I didn't even read this post before I posted my thoughts.

[SpelingError]

I'll watch the movie today.

[mistique]

Just finished Marshland - a thrilling ride. I wouldn´t be surprised if this made my list.

[SpelingError]

Just finished Marshland, and I really enjoyed it. A lot like the first season of True Detective.

EDIT: Didn't read cricket's and WrinkledMind's posts before writing that...jk

In all sincerity, I'd say I liked this more than True Detective as, while the detectives in both the show and this film occasionally involve themselves in corrupt behavior, True Detective got unfittingly and weirdly hopeful at the end. The ending to this film, by comparison, felt far more appropriate to the story. As a result, I imagine this film will linger with me more. Though it's unlikely it will make my ballot, I still really enjoyed it.

[WrinkledMind]

Just finished Marshland, and I really enjoyed it. A lot like the first season of True Detective.

EDIT: Didn't read cricket's and WrinkledMind's posts before writing that...jk

In all sincerity, I'd say I liked this more than True Detective as, while the detectives in both the show and this film occasionally involve themselves in corrupt behavior, True Detective got unfittingly and weirdly hopeful at the end. The ending to this film, by comparison, felt far more appropriate to the story. As a result, I imagine this film will linger with me more. Though it's unlikely it will make my ballot, I still really enjoyed it.


Same thoughts dude.
I always say that this movie is a better version of TD first season, because of exactly that reason.

[Miss Vicky]

Well made film, but not my kind of movie.

https://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/2010s/marshland.gif

Marshland (La isla mínima) (Alberto Rodríguez, 2014)

From a more objective standpoint, this is a good movie. It looks great and has strong performances, but I just wasn't invested in it at all. I didn't care about the investigators. I didn't care about the victims, I didn't care about the case. I was completely detached from everything. Ultimately this is a movie that I respect but don't like.

3.0

[SpelingError]

Current candidates to host the next round...

Takoma11
mistique

You guys have about 24 more hours to watch the film.

NOTE: Both Takoma11 and mistique have only nominated one film so far, so they're the only candidates right now.

[Wyldesyde19]

I’ll get to Marshland tonight.

[Takoma11]

I would like to add a few more thoughts, though I'm not up for a full-on review right now, since my earlier thoughts were so brief.

I really like it when films center a mystery or thriller in the context of a specific historical period. Even if you don't fully know the history, it gives another layer to what is happening. I think that del Toro does this really successfully in The Devil's Backbone, for example. Like wise The Secret in Their Eyes.

So I appreciated the idea of these two detectives coming together, having come from basically different sides of Franco-era Spain.

Where I ended up feeling very conflicted is in where the film leaves things. I quite like the idea that, not fully knowing each other, these two men were able to solve a crime and do some good for someone. I am incredibly torn on not letting us see more of how things would play out between the two partners once they know more of the extent of their history.

On paper, this movie ticks all of the boxes in terms of what I'd expect to enjoy in a crime/thriller. I was pretty surprised that my response to it was a bit lackluster. I just never quite clicked with the characters enough for the final reveals to land heavily.

I had rated the movie a 7 on IMDb. I think that my actual rating is probably somewhere between 3.5 and 4.

Like I wrote before, though, this is an easy movie to recommend to anyone who is a crime/thriller fan. Another movie in the same vein that I liked a bit more was Mystery Road.

[Wyldesyde19]

Mystery Road….is that the Australian film? I’ve heard of it, assuming by that is the correct one

[Takoma11]

Mystery Road….is that the Australian film? I’ve heard of it, assuming by that is the correct one

Yes, and it then got adapted into a TV show (which I have not seen).

[gbgoodies]

I watched Marshland (2014), and it was okay, but I didn't love it the way most people seem to love it. The first hour was too slow, but it picked up a bit as it went on. But I never really cared much about the characters, so it basically just seemed like an average crime mystery to me. And I didn't really care for the open ending.

[WrinkledMind]

The unresolved ending worked for me, but I understand how it wouldn't for others.
Takoma11
I loved the original Secret in their eyes. Will look up Mystery Road.

[Wyldesyde19]

Marshland

This film has some amazing cinematography. Right from the start it catches your attention with its visuals.

Set against the back drop of post Franco Spain, a nation still healing and dealing with the ramifications of its despotic past, 2 detectives must work together to solves a disappearance. Or two rather. Sisters. The mystery deepens when they turn up murdered, and further murders are revealed.

The detectives are of course, different in terms of political ideology. Pedro, a family man, wrote papers denouncing Franco, and was punished for it. His partner, served under Franco has to deal with the rumors of his past associated with it. Their respective differences are never really dealt with satisfactory to my liking. But I think that was the point.

Regardless, the tale is a grilling and taut thriller, and one I’m not likely to forget anytime soon.

Those top down views were amazing.

[WrinkledMind]

Marshland

This film has some amazing cinematography. Right from the start it catches your attention with its visuals.

Set against the back drop of post Franco Spain, a nation still healing and dealing with the ramifications of its despotic past, 2 detectives must work together to solves a disappearance. Or two rather. Sisters. The mystery deepens when they turn up murdered, and further murders are revealed.

The detectives are of course, different in terms of political ideology. Pedro, a family man, wrote papers denouncing Franco, and was punished for it. His partner, served under Franco has to deal with the rumors of his past associated with it. Their respective differences are never really dealt with satisfactory to my liking. But I think that was the point.

Regardless, the tale is a grilling and taut thriller, and one I’m not likely to forget anytime soon.

Those top down views were amazing.
Yes, and absolutely yes.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Wyldesyde19

[SpelingError]

Also, welcome aboard, Wylde!

[SpelingError]

Nomination #19

89735

Better Days (2019, Derek Tsang)

Deadline to Watch It: November 11

Nominated By: Wyldesyde19

[Chypmunk]

Usual story, if it's freely available to me I'll try to give it a spin.

[Takoma11]

The unresolved ending worked for me, but I understand how it wouldn't for others.
Takoma11
I loved the original Secret in their eyes. Will look up Mystery Road.

To be really clear, I wasn't upset that it wasn't resolved. I think that's realistic to how people in a country that was so split would have to uneasily exist side by side without some neat resolution or whatever.

I wish that it had been explored a little more. How does this guy feel about his past? Is he ashamed? Is he indifferent: that was my job then, this is my job now?

[cricket]

Haven't heard of it before, will try to watch.

[cricket]

It's on Tubi

[rauldc14]

Let's just get to the countdown already lol

[Miss Vicky]

Let's just get to the countdown already lol

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/JoaqGifs/joaqdisapproves.gif

We still have like a month until the deadline. Some of us are still busily preparing. I'm nowhere near ready to vote.

[rauldc14]

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/JoaqGifs/joaqdisapproves.gif

We still have like a month until the deadline. Some of us are still busily preparing. I'm nowhere near ready to vote.

Oh please. You got your 25 Joaquin movies ready at the helm.

[beelzebubble]

Let's just get to the countdown already lol
Whoa there big fella.

[SpelingError]

Let's just get to the countdown already lol

But you haven't even submitted your ballot yet.

[rauldc14]

But you haven't even submitted your ballot yet.

Laziness. Although there are about 4 more I want to watch before the countdown.

[SpelingError]

Laziness. Although there are about 4 more I want to watch before the countdown.

Right, so then you're not ready for the countdown to start right now, correct?

[rauldc14]

Right, so then you're not ready for the countdown to start right now, correct?

Once I'm done with those 4 it can start immediately.

[SpelingError]

Once I'm done with those 4 it can start immediately.

Fair enough, just make sure to take about a month and four days to watch them.

[cricket]

Better Days (2019)

3.5+

https://64.media.tumblr.com/21ee879fc24d89d8086cd755572c3f19/51fc1d9f3785de76-f7/s1280x1920/56cb8f02abc8995cce98b3581e9d90a606e83649.jpg

Had never heard of this before, and for a while I was wondering what type of movie it was. Much like I love rape and revenge films, I love films about bullying because of the dark places they go and the visceral punch they provide. It turned out that this wasn't that kind of film, not what I seek out, but I still appreciate a good film which it what this is. That's not to say that the scenes of bullying aren't upsetting. They have to be and they are. I come out of it thinking this is one of the best films about bullying that I've seen that doesn't veer into exploitation. In fact, I thought the central relationship was sweet, believable, and a major asset to the overall film. It's all very touching while tackling an important subject. I wasn't blown away because of my taste, but this was really good.

[SpelingError]

I'll get to it today.

[seanc]

Hopefully I get to this one and join back up with the group. This looks up my alley.

[Wyldesyde19]

When you watch Better Days, keep in mind that while the core message and theme is about bullying (in which there is one rough scene but isn’t exploitive), there is also a underlying theme about the pressures of the placements tests they must take to determine their future.

[cricket]

When you watch Better Days, keep in mind that while the core message and theme is about bullying (in which there is one rough scene but isn’t exploitive), there is also a underlying theme about the pressures of the placements tests they must take to determine their future.

I noticed that, but with it being a different culture and age bracket, I didn't think that much about it.

[SpelingError]

Just finished Better Days, and I enjoyed it. I think the bullying scenes were handled well so that they didn't come of as cheesy, nor did they come off as exploitative or excessive. I also found the central relationship compelling and strong enough to carry the film through the darker bits and, as Wylde mentioned, the theme about the pressures of entrance exams and how much they can affect your life was interesting, too. This film won't make my ballot, but I still enjoyed checking it out.

[SpelingError]

I noticed that, but with it being a different culture and age bracket, I didn't think that much about it.

I don't think one necessarily has to experience onscreen struggles to be able to relate to them. For instance, I've never served in a war, but that doesn't stop me from connecting to the characters in most of my favorite films in the genre.

[cricket]

I don't think one necessarily has to experience onscreen struggles to be able to relate to them. For instance, I've never served in a war, but that doesn't stop me from connecting to the characters in most of my favorite films in the genre.

Yes, but for me students worried with passing tests is practically something to laugh at, and I don't mean it as horrible as it sounds.

[SpelingError]

Yes, but for me students worried with passing tests is practically something to laugh at, and I don't mean it as horrible as it sounds.
Fair enough.

[Wyldesyde19]

Yes, but for me students worried with passing tests is practically something to laugh at, and I don't mean it as horrible as it sounds.
The test is actually super important in their culture, so much so that the results effects not just the children’s lives, but their family as well. The pressures that come with the testing, as well as the failure to get a desired score, has les to an increase in suicide rates.

[cricket]

I hear ya guys, I don't doubt it.

[SpelingError]

Granted, the testing sub-plot wasn't necessarily my favorite aspect of the film nor was it the aspect which left the biggest impression on me (at least, not in the context of all the main drama), but I did enjoy how it intersected with the bullying sub-plot late in the film. I suppose it could've intersected with that a bit more than it did, but I still enjoyed it nonetheless.

[Wyldesyde19]

Granted, the testing sub-plot wasn't necessarily my favorite aspect of the film nor was it the aspect which left the biggest impression on me (at least, not in the context of all the main drama), but I did enjoy how it intersected with the bullying sub-plot late in the film. I suppose it could've intersected with that a bit more than it did, but I still enjoyed it nonetheless.

I had more of a problem with the third act, myself. I’ll get into that in my review

[SpelingError]

Current candidates to host the next round...

cricket

You guys have about 24 more hours to watch the film.

[Wyldesyde19]

Watching it tonight.

Very interested to hear Takoma’s thoughts on it, with her being a teacher and how she might relate to the themes of bullying and, maybe to a lesser degree, the pressure to succeed.

👀

[Takoma11]

Watching it tonight.

Very interested to hear Takoma’s thoughts on it, with her being a teacher and how she might relate to the themes of bullying and, maybe to a lesser degree, the pressure to succeed.

👀

Watching it right now!

[Takoma11]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.everyeye.it%2Fimg-articoli%2Fbetter-days-recensione-film-derek-tsang-v9-49270.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=88c6d03ea355abe479c0341706b0b40a33decf728f6d2c836d63113c580f36fe&ipo=images

Better Days, 2019

High school student Chen Nian (Dongyu Zhou) is relentlessly bullied by high school mean girl Wei Lai (Ye Zhou), something that only worsens after another student who was a target of Wei Lai commits suicide. As the bullying reaches the level of outright physical assault, Chen Nian ends up in a precarious arrangement with street gangster Xiao Bei (Jackson Yee), a young man about her age who agrees to protect her as she prepares for the national exams that will determine her future.

Something that I think this movie is capturing really well is the way that so much of the harm of bullying comes not just from the bullies themselves, but from the structures in place around bullies and their victims.

What we see in this film is really extreme in terms of what happens to the main character. Honestly, that level of pre-meditated, sadistic physical and psychological assault is not something I've ever (thank goodness) really encountered either as a person or as a teacher. I can't comment on the realism of it, because I'm sure that there are places (in the US and abroad) where that level of abuse is allowed to exist.

For sure, though, the kind of social structural failure is a thing. Chen Nian doesn't seem to have enemies outside of that mean clique, but neither does she have close friends. When it comes to what is happening to her, most of her peers choose to look the other way. The teachers say that they want to help, but their version of help doesn't take into account the life that she has to live outside of the school grounds.

There's a book about different education systems called The Smartest Kids in the World that examines the educational systems and classroom cultures in some of the highest ranking countries in international assessments, focused on South Korea, Finland, and Poland. The South Korean system is closest to what we see here: students face tremendous pressure to be successful on national exams. Many students begin their day early in the morning, then go to tutoring sessions after school, sometimes only getting home at 11pm. Careers and futures hinge on test results, and while many students are successful under this system, it also leads to some students breaking under the pressure and turning to self-harm or suicide.

In terms of the more specific plot of the film, I think it's interesting to see a film where, in a positive way, a male character sees a female character as a potential breadwinner. I think that Xiao Bei does have genuine feelings for Chen Nian, but part of her appeal is that if she makes it through her exams and university career, she has the potential to earn a lot of money. I think that it adds an interesting element to his protection of her, coming from both an emotional and a pragmatic place. Between his toughness and street smarts and her book smarts, they could make a go of things together.

I also want to mention a scene that I really liked, which is the scene where Xiao Bei and his friends are brought into the police station for a lineup. Fed up with having been brought in, they boisterously deliver their assigned line in silly voices and with distorted facial expressions. And then . . . we pan to behind the glass, where a woman who has been raped is watching this whole performance in shock while a woman (her mother, her lawyer, a police officer) quietly comforts her. Someone who seems to have a heart of gold in one moment has the potential to do a lot of harm in another. The whole film is marked by the danger of lacking empathy, and this little sequence really stood out to me. I think that it also goes a ways to preventing Xiao Bei from being too unrealistically nice. He's young, and he doesn't always think about the harm that his actions (even those done in jest and maybe without specific malice) could do.

I was very torn on the last act, in which the drama and suspense of the bullying subplot takes a sharp turn into a police investigation that threatens to ensnare both Chen Nian and Xiao Bei. For a while, the film turns more into a question of logistics rather than emotion, and during some prolonged sequences in a police station the movie loses a bit of its steam.

But in the end I was okay with how it all turned out, because I thought that the film managed to steer itself out of crime/thriller territory and back to the question of who deserves to have a future and why. In particular, I thought that the question of how someone can be put back on the path to a productive and happy future--even after a serious misstep--was a good one. How can the structures (and the adults) around children and young people keep them on that path and redirect them when needed? I found myself a bit surprised even at how positively I responded to the dialogue that begins and ends the film: "This was our playground. This used to be our playground. This is our playground."

4

[SpelingError]

Because of a telehealth appointment and then an evening out, I still have a good chunk of the movie left--about half--and will have to finish tomorrow.

But here are some thoughts (I'm at the part where he just got released from the police station after they arrested him at the computer cafe):

Something that I think this movie is capturing really well is the way that so much of the harm of bullying comes not just from the bullies themselves, but from the structures in place around bullies and their victims.

What we see in this film is really extreme in terms of what happens to the main character. Honestly, that level of pre-meditated, sadistic physical and psychological assault is not something I've ever (thank goodness) really encountered either as a person or as a teacher. I can't comment on the realism of it, because I'm sure that there are places (in the US and abroad) where that level of abuse is allowed to exist.

For sure, though, the kind of social structural failure is a thing. Chen Nian doesn't seem to have enemies outside of that mean clique, but neither does she have close friends. When it comes to what is happening to her, most of her peers choose to look the other way. The teachers say that they want to help, but their version of help doesn't take into account the life that she has to live outside of the school grounds.

There's a book about different education systems called The Smartest Kids in the World that examines the educational systems and classroom cultures in some of the highest ranking countries in international assessments, focused on South Korea, Finland, and Poland. The South Korean system is closest to what we see here: students face tremendous pressure to be successful on national exams. Many students begin their day early in the morning, then go to tutoring sessions after school, sometimes only getting home at 11pm. Careers and futures hinge on test results, and while many students are successful under this system, it also leads to some students breaking under the pressure and turning to self-harm or suicide.

In terms of the more specific plot of the film, I think it's interesting to see a film where, in a positive way, a male character sees a female character as a potential breadwinner. I think that Xiao Bei does have genuine feelings for Chen Nian, but part of her appeal is that if she makes it through her exams and university career, she has the potential to earn a lot of money. I think that it adds an interesting element to his protection of her, coming from both an emotional and a pragmatic place. Between his toughness and street smarts and her book smarts, they could make a go of things together.

I also want to mention a scene that I really liked, which is the scene where Xiao Bei and his friends are brought into the police station for a lineup. Fed up with having been brought in, they boisterously deliver their assigned line in silly voices and with distorted facial expressions. And then . . . we pan to behind the glass, where a woman who has been raped is watching this whole performance in shock while a woman (her mother, her lawyer, a police officer) quietly comforts her. Someone who seems to have a heart of gold in one moment has the potential to do a lot of harm in another. The whole film is marked by the danger of lacking empathy, and this little sequence really stood out to me. I think that it also goes a ways to preventing Xiao Bei from being too unrealistically nice. He's young, and he doesn't always think about the harm that his actions (even those done in jest and maybe without specific malice) could do.

So far I'm really enjoying this film, though I'm just getting into the murder mystery aspect of it, so I'll be curious to see how it all wraps up.

Interesting thoughts. The bolded paragraph was one of my main takeaways on their relationship and why I found it really compelling.

[Takoma11]

I actually got sucked into the last half (plus this stupid full moon that WILL NOT LET ME SLEEP!), so I'm going to amend the above post into a full review.

Good nomination! When I went to its IMDb page I saw that it was already on my watchlist there!

[gbgoodies]

Better Days (2019) is a good movie, but it's the kind of movie that I wouldn't want to watch again because it's a tough watch. I would have liked a better ending for Chen Nian and Xiao Bei. They shouldn't be punished for what seemed to be an accident that was caused by the bully.

[Wyldesyde19]

Better Days


What a heart breaking film.

Chen Nina and Xiao Bei couldn’t be more opposite from each other, yet so much more alike. Both are lonely, long abandoned by their parents for various reasons. Chen’s mother is at least somewhat in her life, but is also in hiding from the debt she is in, while trying to earn more money.

Both are drawn to each other out of a need to survive. Chen because of her bullies, and distractions eh doesn’t need because of the constant pressure she already feels while studying for her admissions test. Xiao, because of his street life will assuredly one day end him. The constant bruises and scars he comes home with become progressively worse.

This film is an indictment against bullying, and we see it’s effects. Chen is wracked with guilt for her silent complicity, when her friend commits suicide. After being questioned by the police, the bullies turn their attention to her, pulling the same pranks. We see flashbacks to scenes that Echo her friends treatment as we see the same lea so pulled on her. *Wracked with guilt, she holds herself responsible for remaining a silent witness, doing nothing because of the fear it would bring unwanted attention to her. Her friend, just before committing suicide, even questions why she did nothing.

I could go on about the bullying. I didn’t find it exaggerated, considering the bullying I had witnessed firsthand, and, regrettably, the bullying I implemented myself as a kid. I never found it over the top.

The constant pressure to succeed is always in the background as well, with subtle messages abo it their future hinging on their test results. We see a student who HS failed and her parents reaction from begging, to bargaining, to anger.

It is the relationship between Chen and Xiao that is the lynchpin of the film. It isn’t one based on sex. It is a need. The need to survive and escape the city to a better life. Both recognize their current paths are perilous without each other. And so he becomes her great protector. I think, in a way, he also sees her as something pure (he even calls her pure at one point), and he would never forgive himself if he allowed something that pure to be swallowed up by the city.

I do have issues with the third act, the murder mystery, which I felt was completely unnecessary, but it doesn’t ruin the movie, thankfully.
I also wonder how she is able to get a job as a teacher with a prison term attached to her record.

Maybe things are different in Hong Kong. 🤷

[SpelingError]

I guess I can kind of see the murder mystery being unnecessary. I would've preferred that the film stuck to the drama between the two leads, especially since being wrapped up in murder mysteries isn't as relatable to bullying victims as what happened to the leads before that sub-plot.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Takoma11

[Takoma11]

Better Days (2019) is a good movie, but it's the kind of movie that I wouldn't want to watch again because it's a tough watch. I would have liked a better ending for Chen Nian and Xiao Bei. They shouldn't be punished for what seemed to be an accident that was caused by the bully.

I think that the problem is that while the death was accidental, they definitely moved a body, covered up the death, etc. There were mitigating circumstances with Chen Nian beause of the bullying, but not so much Xiao Bei.

I also wonder how she is able to get a job as a teacher with a prison term attached to her record.

Maybe things are different in Hong Kong. 🤷

She was a minor and the death was accidental.

When I renew my teaching certificate I have to answer questions about my criminal/legal past, but the questions are only about if I have committed (or have any charges pending) crimes involving children.

[SpelingError]

Nomination #20

89815

Tikkun (2015, Avishai Sivan)

Deadline to Watch It: November 14

Nominated By: Takoma11

[SpelingError]

I was requested by Takoma to let you all know that the film contains a slaughterhouse scene in the beginning. The actual killing isn't shown on camera, but some sprays of blood are, as well as the carcass being gutted.

[Takoma11]

A quick note (especially for @MissVicky!), that the movie has a setting sometimes of the family's slaughterhouse.

I checked IMDb, which says you see sprays of blood but no actual killing of animals. I couldn't remember if you actually saw any death.

[Wyldesyde19]

She was a minor and the death was accidental.

When I renew my teaching certificate I have to answer questions about my criminal/legal past, but the questions are only about if I have committed (or have any charges pending) crimes involving children.

I was always under the impression a criminal background would prevent a career in teaching. Me ex had a DUI and lost her job as a direct result of that, for instance. She hasn’t been able to reach since. And that was back in 2014.

Does it depends on the school? Or maybe, I’m Over looking the fact that she was a minor.

Edit: also probably over looking the incident itself, and the fact they probably felt sympathy for her

[Takoma11]

I was always under the impression a criminal background would prevent a career in teaching. Me ex had a DUI and lost her job as a direct result of that, for instance. She hasn’t been able to reach since. And that was back in 2014.

Does it depends on the school? Or maybe, I’m Over looking the fact that she was a minor.

Edit: also probably over looking the incident itself, and the fact they probably felt sympathy for her

Sex crimes and "endangerment" offences are the worst ones in terms of getting/keeping a teaching certificate. It's about the danger that the teacher could pose to a student, and so crimes involving endangering other people are big no-nos.

I think that her being a minor at the time and the extreme extenuating circumstances--she had been physically assaulted and sexually humiliated by her "victim"--along with the fact that the death was accidental are really important. Would Chen Nian post a risk to her students? I think most reasonable people would say that her pushing her bully (which wasn't even intended as a fatal attack at all) is not a signifier that she would be a danger to children. She may have even had the crime expunged from her record.

[SpelingError]

I'll watch it today (hit me up if you need a link).

[seanc]

I was a day late but I checked out Better Days last night, which I really liked. I don’t have anything to add to the conversation that already happened. It’s the kind of movie I love to watch. Super sobering, and just gives you time to think and reflect. I gave it a 3.5. If I was to point to a reason why it probably would be the length. I could feel it losing its power and hold on me a bit. Good movie that I’m really glad was nominated. I hadn’t heard of it.

[SpelingError]

Just finished Tikkun, and I thought it was alright. It left me very cold and I'm not sure I ever got on the film's emotional wavelength, but it still had a few nice visuals here and there which kept me (occasionally) on board with it. I'm curious to see how the rest of you respond to it though.

[Chypmunk]

Just checked and sadly like most it doesn't appear to be freely available to me so I'll have to wait for the next nomination.

[Takoma11]

Just finished Tikkun, and I thought it was alright. It left me very cold and I'm not sure I ever got on the film's emotional wavelength, but it still had a few nice visuals here and there which kept me (occasionally) on board with it. I'm curious to see how the rest of you respond to it though.

I imagine quite a few people might have a similar response. I'm rewatching it right now and really loving the things I loved the first time I watched it two years ago.

[Takoma11]

Here's what I wrote about it last year:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fimg45.pixhost.to%2Fimages%2F70%2F159718062_tikkun-2015-720p-bluray-x264-dts-5-1-hibana_03.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

Tikkun, 2015

A young Orthodox Jewish scholar named Haim-Aaron (Aharon Traitel) is at what looks like the beginning of a crisis of self and a crisis of faith. When he has a near-death experience and is revived by his father (Khalifa Natour), the aftermath pushes him even further into alienation from his faith and his family.

A religious person struggling with temptation--and specifically a younger person struggling with lust and the "temptation of the flesh"--is not new ground. This film distinguishes itself at both extremes of representing the theme. On one hand, bringing an incredibly literal meaning by setting many sequences in the slaughterhouse owned by Haim-Aaron's father; on the other hand, incorporating fantasy sequences that consume not only the main character, but also those around him.

Much like how I felt about Merchant of Four Seasons, this film is a jarring vision of someone who no longer belongs in their own life. Haim-Aaron is the kind of personality driven to extremes---we see him using an incredibly tiny pencil and when he accidentally drops his prayer box, he punishes himself with a strict fast. But what happens when someone drawn to extremes reaches a breaking point? Where does that intensity then find an outlet?

At the intersection of lust and denial, a lot of people turn to anger. And in the very specific case of men who are denied (or who deny themselves) access to sex and intimacy, usually the manifestation is anger or even violence toward women. But in this film, the anxiety Haim-Aaron feels mostly turns inward. When it does turn outward, however, it is very disturbing to see, as he has lost his sense of moral and ethical boundaries.

As someone who is not very religious, it can be kind of painful watching such a narrative unfold. Here is a young person who is so bound up in his beliefs that he must agonize over whether or not to touch his own body for pleasure. And he is so conflicted about how to relate to women and his own desire for sex that he is only comfortable seeking out such intimacy from someone who is not a threat and will not bear witness to his "depravity"--ie someone who is incapable of consent. This is not a specific criticism of Judaism, but rather something that I feel I have seen across different religions. The habit of denying natural urges can lead to an implosion or an explosion.

This is a portrait of a person who has fallen almost entirely out of his own being. Haim-Aaron is alienated from his own body, the bodies of women he finds attractive, his faith, and his family. One of the harshest aspects of the film is when Haim-Aaron's father begins to believe that in reviving his son, he somehow defied the will of God.

In matching the theme of the film, this is a very visceral movie. There are multiple sequences that take place at the father's slaughterhouse, many moments that involve raw meat, and a recurring use of cockroaches. It is a film that is both gorgeous in its black and white image, and disturbing in what it sometimes shows you. I was really shocked to learn that the lead actor was (at the time) a non-professional and that this was his first film. He anchors the film in a strong-yet-subtle way, and the rest of the cast is equally good.

4.5

[SpelingError]

Just checked and sadly like most it doesn't appear to be freely available to me so I'll have to wait for the next nomination.
I sent you a link.

[Miss Vicky]

Not my kind of movie.

https://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/2010s/tikkun.gif

Tikkun (Avishai Sivan, 2015)

Whatever this movie was trying to say - about religion, death, life, whatever - was lost on me and its snail's pace left me completely disengaged. I spent the full two hours feeling nothing but a vague sense of revulsion at pretty much everything on the screen - with the exception of one particular scene near the end where that feeling of revulsion lost its vagueness and became quite apparent.

I'll give it some credit for the look of the film and some strong performances, but I think in the future I'll be avoiding any suggestions or nominations that deal so much with religion.

2

[Takoma11]

Having watched it now a second time. yeah, I still really find it powerful. It's slow and the style of the filmmaking has a degree of being detached that aligns with the way that the main character is alienated from the people and just generally the world around him. I think that the movie deliberately is cold and keeps you at arm's length. In some ways, some of the shots made me think of You Were Never Really Here, where Phoenix would step out of the frame and the camera would linger on the space where he had been.

For me, this is a really powerful portrait of emotional isolation. It's grounded in someone whose lens is religious, but I honestly think that this speaks to the pain of feeling detached from the society around you for any reason. Especially when you're in that place where it seems like everything you do just makes it worse. I still think it's pretty amazing that the main actor was not an experienced actor at all.

I definitely anticipate that a lot of folks will be either neutral or negative on it. Maybe someone will click with it the way I did.

Not my kind of movie.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. (And I do appreciate that it's a two hour film, and two hours of not having fun is :( )

[SpelingError]

Current candidates to host the next round:

Miss Vicky

You guys have about 24 more hours to watch the film.

[WrinkledMind]

Watched Better Days. It felt realistic and grim, and shows the bullying aspect quite well, as in not exploitative. I didn't like the ending. But overall I enjoyed the movie.


Also, watched Tikkun and I was largely lost. A lot of it was down to me not being aware of any aspects of the Jewish culture, and while I got the larger message about a devout man turning free (or exploring things he wouldn't usually have) I think I missed out on a lot of subtle Jewish references. Even though it's beautifully shot in black and white, and almost has a meditative feel to it, some of things shown made me uncomfortable. And I usually enjoy (yes, it sounds weird but I want my movies to affect me - maybe humour, romance or make me uncomfortable) that when it happens, but here I felt I would have been more affected if I got all the meanings.


Thanks for the recommendation Wyldesyde19 and Takoma11

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Miss Vicky
WrinkledMind

[Miss Vicky]

The next host is...

Miss Vicky
WrinkledMind

You ought to put yourself in the next pool of possible nominators. Haven't you only chosen the first one?

[SpelingError]

You ought to put yourself in the next pool of possible nominators. Haven't you only chosen the first one?
I decided to only nominate one film for this thread since I'm trying to give as many chances as possible to the other participants to nominate something.

Also, I think most of the films I'll be voting for are fairly well known.

[WrinkledMind]

I decided to only nominate one film for this thread since I'm trying to give as many chances as possible to the other participants to nominate something.

Also, I think most of the films I'll be voting for are fairly well known.


I agree with Miss Vicky
Mate, you ought to take this round and nominate a movie. You have only had one chance.

[Citizen Rules]

I decided to only nominate one film for this thread since I'm trying to give as many chances as possible to the other participants to nominate something.

Also, I think most of the films I'll be voting for are fairly well known.That's very cool of you, but I think you should put your name back into the movie selection hat.

[SpelingError]

I'll go next then.



Nomination #21

89837

Cameraperson (2016, Kirsten Johnson)

Deadline to Watch It: November 17

Nominated By: SpelingError

[SpelingError]

I don't believe any documentaries have been nominated yet, so figured I'd nominate what may be my favorite doc of the 2010's (either this one or Exit Through the Gift Shop, which is quite a bit more well-known). It should be pretty easy to track down.

[seanc]

I don't believe any documentaries have been nominated yet, so figured I'd nominate what may be my favorite doc of the 2010's (either this one or Exit Through the Gift Shop, which is quite a bit more well-known). It should be pretty easy to track down.

Cool, quite a few docs I am considering. Exit Through The Giftshop is one of them. I watched Cameraperson s few weeks ago because it was one of the big ones I hadn't caught up with. I liked it, but was left feeling that I just wanted to see all the docs she had pulled the footage from. What a cool life to document all that stuff.

[SpelingError]

Cool, quite a few docs I am considering. Exit Through The Giftshop is one of them. I watched Cameraperson s few weeks ago because it was one of the big ones I hadn't caught up with. I liked it, but was left feeling that I just wanted to see all the docs she had pulled the footage from. What a cool life to document all that stuff.
Have you seen Dick Johnson is Dead from the same director? You may like that one more.

EDIT: Never mind, just noticed that you logged it on Letterboxd.

[Chypmunk]

Watched Cameraperson back in 2018 and made no notes (other than agreeing it was aptly titled) but sadly from the rating I gave it would appear I wasn't particularly enamoured of it. I'll not revisit it as I'm trying to concentrate now on either completely new watches or rewatches that I think could potentially be in the mix.

[seanc]

Have you seen Dick Johnson is Dead from the same director? You may like that one more.

EDIT: Never mind, just noticed that you logged it on Letterboxd.

Yeah, that one was good.

[Allaby]

I watched Cameraperson on September 20 of this year in preparation for the countdown. It's a very well made documentary, with some powerful and beautiful moments. It's not quite as fantastic as Dick Johnson is Dead, but I'm glad I watched it and would not object if Cameraperson makes the countdown. 4

[Takoma11]

Have you seen Dick Johnson is Dead from the same director? You may like that one more.

EDIT: Never mind, just noticed that you logged it on Letterboxd.

Dick Johnson is Dead is AMAZING and almost a guaranteed spot on my ballot. Just hands down one of the best documentaries (or documentary-adjacents) I've ever seen.

[cricket]

Not seen this, going to try to.

[Miss Vicky]

I'll try to watch this, but fair warning: Documentaries are not my jam and I probably won't like it.

[Miss Vicky]

So yeah... I don't like documentaries.

89847

Cameraperson (Kirsten Johnson, 2016)

I hated everything about this. I typically avoid documentaries as a rule because it's very rare for one to capture and hold my interest so I wasn't expecting to like this going in. But what I also wasn't expecting was to have to sit through a montage of snippets and outtakes from a bunch of other documentaries with no narration and often little to no context given for what we are shown. The film jumps around from subject to subject and then back again, sometimes covering issues that I might care about if it spent any sort of significant time with them before moving on again, but it doesn't and so I never gave a damn about any of it.

I spent its entire length - which is under 2 hours but felt much, much longer - completely disconnected and just wishing for it to end.

1

[Citizen Rules]

89853
Cameraperson (Kirsten Johnson, 2016)

I'm of a mixed mind on this one. On one hand I enjoyed seeing the many different places around the world....Like the scenes of the Bosnia countryside or Wyoming with that wind! Or the aerial view of Brooklyn. I never knew that's what Brooklyn looked like. The dry, desolated scenes in Africa with the two women chopping down the tree was my favorite. It was interesting that they stressed the fact to the cameraperson 'not to worry the tree was dead'. I liked those two women and I'd liked to know more about them and the other people's lives too...

And that's where I get to the 'other hand' in that Cameraperson was just bits and pieces of left over film stock from other documentaries. I wondered why those pieces were even bothered to be put into a film? I don't think it was technically a good documentary, it wasn't even really about anything.

Yet I did enjoy Cameraperson for the chance to see all sorts of things that I would never get a chance to otherwise. So maybe it worked, I don't know. Glad I watched it though.

[SpelingError]

I'll probably post some thoughts on this doc later tonight. A bit busy at the moment.

[Frightened Inmate No. 2]

don’t think i’ll be watching it again for this but i watched cameraperson a couple years ago and loved it. very humane and beautiful movie about the relationship between camera and subject. probably not gonna make my list but i currently have it as my #68 for the decade. i don’t know if this should qualify me to be in the next pool of names but i at least wanted to put some positivity out there for this one.

[SpelingError]

i don’t know if this should qualify me to be in the next pool of names but i at least wanted to put some positivity out there for this one.
If you feel that the film is still fairly fresh in your head or that a rewatch won't change your opinion of it, you should be fine.

[crumbsroom]

Cameraman is a great film. Focusing on ephemeral moments, instead of a specific investigative line of inquiry, is what makes it special. Sometimes there are more interesting or beautiful or mysterious moments that happen between the story (kind of my entire philosophy towards narrative art), and this film gives them their due without forcing itself to answer what it all means in the grand scheme of things. It's frequently the grand scheme of things that blinds us to them, so I was happy as a pig in shit not to have to anchor all these images down to a specific purpose. Because yawn to that averageness.

[Takoma11]

I was happy as a pig in shit not to have to anchor all these images down to a specific purpose.

(I'm about halfway through the film, but the portion I'm watching right now is very relevant to this comment).

I don't think it's just a release from the need to tie images to events, I think it's actively commenting on the way that objects or people become different to our eye when we do tie them to a narrative. I'm looking at a beautiful shot of some diving boards . . . and then three seconds later I learn that this is the site of mass executions by the Taliban. I think that this film is deliberately playing with the space where visuals/objects and stories intersect and I'm loving it.

[SpelingError]

Cameraman is a great film. Focusing on ephemeral moments, instead of a specific investigative line of inquiry, is what makes it special. Sometimes there are more interesting or beautiful or mysterious moments that happen between the story (kind of my entire philosophy towards narrative art), and this film gives them their due without forcing itself to answer what it all means in the grand scheme of things. It's frequently the grand scheme of things that blinds us to them, so I was happy as a pig in shit not to have to anchor all these images down to a specific purpose. Because yawn to that averageness.

That's similar to my opinion of the film. It's true that virtually all the episodes in the film are brief, so I can understand why someone may have difficulty connecting to them or may wish for the film to focus more on those individual stories. However, I think virtually every scene in this film is able to convey some kind of mood or emotional response from me without using that much historical context or background.

[SpelingError]

I'm looking at a beautiful shot of some diving boards . . . and then three seconds later I learn that this is the site of mass executions by the Taliban.

That scene was chilling to watch for me. Speaking of which, I also loved the introduction of Johnson's mother where she seemed normal at first, suddenly started acting vaguely distant and unaware of her daughter's presence, and for text to come onscreen indicating she has Alzheimer's.

[Little Ash]

That scene was chilling to watch for me. Speaking of which, I also loved the introduction of Johnson's mother where she seemed normal at first, suddenly started acting vaguely distant and unaware of her daughter's presence, and for text to come onscreen indicating she has Alzheimer's.

I seem to recall from the beginning of Dick Johnson is Dead (or being told at the beginning of Dick Johnson is Dead - sometimes I confuse what I remember from a movie with what people repeatedly tell me is in a movie), the reason JDiD was made was because when doing Camera Person, she discovered she just didn't have that much footage of her mother and didn't want to repeat that with her father.

I still need to see Camera Person. I don't think it'd be making my ballot so it's not an immediate priority of those movies I meant to squeeze in by the end of the month. That's what Thanksgiving is for, right?

[Takoma11]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.simbasible.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F06%2F2-768x450.png&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=c0f1dc7235b98c4f0d07f56decf83c72b2203096a101380c10d2d828b6d24965&ipo=images

Cameraperson, 2016

This documentary acts, per the director, as a kind of memoir of her life. The film takes footage--clips and outtakes--from the many films on which director Kirsten Johnson served as a cameraperson.

As I alluded to earlier, I really enjoyed this film. Despite seemingly being just a series of clips from Johnson's catalog of work, I thought that it brought out multiple interesting themes and ideas. It definitely kept me intellectually and emotionally engaged the entire way through.

A series of moments that carry a lot of resonance for me has to do with two different settings: the Bosnian documentary about the systematic violence against women, including captivity and rape, and the footage of the women's health clinic where we watch a midwife try to save a pair of twins, one of whom is being born breach.

Something that is explicitly called out by one of the women working as an investigator in the Bosnia film is the way that her work weighs on her. She knows that it is an important calling to help the women who have been victims of horrific sexual violence, but, as she puts it, she must then takes those stories inside of her. They haunt her, despite the importance of the work. Johnson doesn't need to say anything here, as the parallels with her own work are obvious. Johnson must continually bear witness to the pain of other people, and sometimes that pain finds an echo in her own life experiences. When a young woman breaks down describing her decision to have an abortion, the women in the room respond that "We've all had unplanned pregnancies." Later, in the health clinic, Johnson and her colleague are relieved when a baby in distress finally breathes and cries . . . only to clearly go into distress a short time later. There is this brief moment of hesitation before they go back into the room with the baby. There is a good chance that they may watch a baby suffocate because the clinic doesn't have the oxygen it needs to save his life. There is a price to bearing such witness, but it's something Johnson and her colleague do because it is important.

I appreciated the way that Johnson layered in a few moments like this: moments where the people she is filming are grappling with the very same emotional or ethical dilemmas that she herself faces. A man lectures about why it is wrong to show images of death in the media, arguing that it is voyeurism that also suggests that the chance for help is over. A student respectfully asks about a case where the image of a drowned child was a turning point in how the refugee crisis was perceived by the public. Where is the line that filming pain ceases to be useful and becomes voyeuristic? It's a question we see in small ways, such as when Johnson films as a young man is interviewed about having survived a serious attack in which he lost sight in one eye and watched his brother's head get torn apart. How much do you ask someone in that position? How much do you push?

And to add an even further layer, Johnson adds in footage of her own life, specifically her mother's decline into Alzheimer's disease. (Bonus points for footage of future star dad Dick Johnson!!). As with Dick Johnson is Dead, you get the sense that filming is how Johnson processes the world around her. She has an eye for little moments, such as following a woman with her camera only to get a great shot of that woman later turning to watch some action on the street. This shot turns into following two young women who are momentarily given a double look by a young man as they pass. The direction of the camera changes again to follow the exchange of money from hand to hand. This isn't just someone watching life through a camera lens---this is someone finding moments big and small. Other times, she simply captures amazing moments, such as when a friend has a breakdown about her mother's suicide and, as if in response, a thunder of snow falls from the roof of the house, plunging the room into temporary darkness.

This film was honestly also a strange trip down memory lane of some major events. It took my brain a moment to pull up the meaning of the name James Byrd, a case that horrified me at the time it happened. Something about watching the two men in the courtroom stretch out the chain that was used---the camera lingering on the way that the chain has dented and damaged the box in which it is stored---hit me in a really visceral way. Likewise some of the footage from the time of the Penn State child sex abuse scandal.

Another powerful takeaway for me from the film was one of the final sequences. Five years after filming the Bosnia documentary, Johnson returns to visit a family that lived in the mountains whom she interviewed at the time. Showing the family some of the finished film (or maybe just some of her footage of them?), she shares with them that despite the intensity of the subject matter, she has very happy memories of her time with them.

In terms of thinking about the ways that we bear witness to the lives of others, and the value and the trauma involved in being such a witness, I thought that this film was very impactful. It made me think a lot of some of the things I've witnessed or talked through with my students. I know how important it is to be there for them, but it can be hard sometimes because it is painful, even in cases where I am able to get them the help that they need.

I've been meaning to check this film out ever since watching (and loving) Dick Johnson is Dead. I might not love it as much as that film---which is one of the most innovative and memorable documentary-adjacent things I've seen in ages--but it was really great.

4.5

[crumbsroom]

(I'm about halfway through the film, but the portion I'm watching right now is very relevant to this comment).

I don't think it's just a release from the need to tie images to events, I think it's actively commenting on the way that objects or people become different to our eye when we do tie them to a narrative. I'm looking at a beautiful shot of some diving boards . . . and then three seconds later I learn that this is the site of mass executions by the Taliban. I think that this film is deliberately playing with the space where visuals/objects and stories intersect and I'm loving it.


Exactly. It's not like narrative ceases to exist when we pull most of the standard markers away. Literally everything either has a story implicitly in it, or we can imply one. But when we are made to just step back and observe places and things and events, it changes how we relate to them. As well as the stories or sensations or history they almost certainly also contain. And as we watch Cameraperson what happens is we can add how we relate to these disembodied moments to what they may mean. Especially as we have more information added. We become a part of the process of discovery. We are not just bystanders as we might be if these were simply tiny moments in a larger more obvious narrative. These tiny moments become something more simply by the act of being removed from a larger picture. They aren't meaningless.

[WrinkledMind]

Just finished watching Cameraperson. I would have enjoyed it more if I had seen those documentaries beforehand during which these clips were made (but not shown or shown in them). That's not to say I didn't enjoy it, cause by the end I absolutely did enjoy this.


I liked the sudden change of emotions at times, the way she has glued the clips together. You go from scenes of happiness to suddenly seeing a person speaking about a crime where a man was dragged by a car up until his bones, or the mass rapes and murders.


The scenes with her mother felt personal.


My favourite were the midwives of Nigeria. But that scene, later around the end was an absolute rollercoaster.

I am queasy around pregnant women anyways, cause I can't stand seeing them in discomfort let alone get hurt.


I went from repulsion at the sight of the blood on the floor, to anxiety with the baby not responding, to cheering the baby crying to a quick punch in the gut, when the midwife casually stated that they don't have oxygen.



Quite a powerful documentary. Thanks for the recommendation SpelingError

[SpelingError]

Current candidates to host the next round...

Frightened Inmate No. 2
crumbsroom

You guys have about 24 more hours to watch the film.

[crumbsroom]

It's true that virtually all the episodes in the film are brief, so I can understand why someone may have difficulty connecting to them or may wish for the film to focus more on those individual stories.


This is true, probably especially so for your general audience, but it begs the question: why?


What is it that stops people from actually seeing what is on film. That is being baldly presented to them. Why are criticisms of this film so frequently falling back upon the complaint that the moments we are seeing are random and do not connect to the next series of images? Or that we need to see more before they can have meaning to us?


If Johnson were simply at a kitchen table, explaining each one of these moments from her life, one after the other (let's assume the people at the table keep asking her to continue and she hasn't simply taken dinner hostage), we would not question the value of her sharing these moments from her life. We would understand they are a story being told to us, from her perspective, from her life as a cameraperson. They would have meaning to us.


And yet, when they are laid out for us visually, in a perfect medium to show us exactly what happened to her in these incidents, what they looked like and sounded like and felt like....suddenly the average film goer asks 'huh'?



My answer, as it always is and always will be, is that the manner in which film has co-opted a very specific way of telling a story, actually stops us from seeing. It stands in the way of what is elementally obvious if we are simply willing to sit back and experience something on screen. Not have it shoe horned into an obvious arc, which is what most (and frequently the most lazy and often most cowardly) of filmmakers can't help but do. And this isn't to say some films don't sparkle when they take this route (Lord of the Rings, Sunset Boulevard, Wizard of Oz for easy examples). But in so many cases, the over reliance on these narrative mannerisms, blocks something in our way to process images on screen. It holds us hostage. It's an infection.


Every day of our lives, we walk out the door (or stay inside), do stuff (or not do stuff). Yet as the years go by, we begin to shape all of these random moments of life into narratives, that allow us to tell eachother who we are, what we've done, where we'd like to go. We all have a natural ability to find the story in the seemingly arbitrary. Ever person has this innate gift to do this on our own, without any help...and yet, so frequently, whenever we put on a film, we turn this ability off. Expect it to fill in all of the blanks. Expect it to let us know where everything is going and that it all has a purpose. And then get angry if it has the audacity to just show us something and implicitly see and understand there is a narrative already there. Just watch. And that's basically what Cameraperson does. It just wants us to watch.


So I think now I will have to elevate Cameraperson to Exhibit A of my criminal proceedings in the neverending case of crumbsroom vs the world. We will file this one under "eat shit narrative"

[Takoma11]

Just finished watching Cameraperson. I would have enjoyed it more if I had seen those documentaries beforehand during which these clips were made (but not shown or shown in them). That's not to say I didn't enjoy it, cause by the end I absolutely did enjoy this.

I kind of liked that I hadn't seen most of the films in question (I believe I watched Pray the Devil Back to Hell when it first came out, but it's been a while.)

It meant that I would encounter something and have to decide what I thought about what and who I was seeing. I didn't know how to feel about the man in the James Byrd sequence at first, because I couldn't tell what his role was in the whole thing. So there was this gap where I wasn't sure if I was going to like or dislike this person, based on what they were doing. Like Crumbsroom says, it sort of forces you to look at them in a different way because you haven't been given cues to know how to feel.

Another example is the midwife. At first she often seems curt or blunt, but as the film goes on you realize that this woman probably watches newborn babies (and their mothers!) die or suffer serious issues every day. Her mannerisms are probably a defense mechanism and maybe even some resentment of the idea that people might think she is not doing her job correctly when in fact she is under-resourced.

[cricket]

I won't be able to get to this one in time, getting blasted at work with the pre holiday rush.

[gbgoodies]

I watched Cameraperson (2016), but unfortunately it didn't work for me. It just felt like a bunch of random video clips that were strung together with no rhyme or reason. There were even clips from the same documentaries that were separated by clips from other documentaries between them. It just made no sense to me, and seemed like a big jumble. Maybe if the clips were from documentaries that I knew about and had interest in, this might have had a chance.

[Wyldesyde19]

Getting to Cameraperson tonight.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Frightened Inmate No. 2
crumbsroom

[Wyldesyde19]

The next host is...

Frightened Inmate No. 2
crumbsroom
Wait, which?

[SpelingError]

Wait, which?

crumbsroom, which is why I pinged his username. That's my format for this thread.

[Wyldesyde19]

Cameraperson.

It begins with a flock of sheep. Then transitions to a storm. We watch the lightning and hear the rumble of thunder. And then we hear two sneezes as the camera shakes. It’s those little moments that will make up our journey.

Kirsten Johnson has created this cinematic journey covering 25 years of footage spanning her career. It is at times heart breaking, suspenseful, wistful, and always fascinating.

We see through the lense of her camera moments of her life. Her children. Her father. Her mother, suffering from Alzheimer’s. We see interviews with women who survived the Serbian war. We see locations of where executions were carried out.

We see a baby born, and saved as we watch it gasping for air. Guards who demand they pull over their car and stop filming. A murder trial involving a hate crime that involves grisly details. *

And Johnson is the emotional anchor to all of this. We hear moments of emotion from her. Particularly scenes involving her family, especially her mother. It is a journey, and one she shares with us. And we can’t help be swept up in its images.

[crumbsroom]

crumbsroom, which is why I pinged his username. That's my format for this thread.


Wait, what?


I actually haven't been participating in this beyond defending Cameraperson from the sidelines.

[Takoma11]

Wait, what?


I actually haven't been participating in this beyond defending Cameraperson from the sidelines.

You get to make everyone watch a movie that you pick.

Embrace the power! Let it go right to your head!

[beelzebubble]

Wait, what?


I actually haven't been participating in this beyond defending Cameraperson from the sidelines.
Now I am intrigued.

[crumbsroom]

You get to make everyone watch a movie that you pick.

Embrace the power! Let it go right to your head!


That is literally my nightmare.

[beelzebubble]

That is literally my nightmare.
Dude, face it. You are a celebrity here.

[Takoma11]

That is literally my nightmare.

You really liked The Wise Kids and that's a 2011 film.

[crumbsroom]

You really liked The Wise Kids and that's a 2011 film.


So is Jess and Moss which I just watched yesterday. Which at least means I won't have to watch it to refresh my mind. Im not in a rewatching kind of mood.
Or a recommending one. But if I've been sucked into the nightmare, I suppose that would be my choice




Not sure how readily available it is though

[Takoma11]

So is Jess and Moss which I just watched yesterday. Which at least means I won't have to watch it to refresh my mind. Im not in a rewatching kind of mood.
Or a recommending one. But if I've been sucked into the nightmare, I suppose that would be my choice

Not sure how readily available it is though

Jess + Moss seems to be on Kanopy and Mubi.

[SpelingError]

So is Jess and Moss which I just watched yesterday. Which at least means I won't have to watch it to refresh my mind. Im not in a rewatching kind of mood.
Or a recommending one. But if I've been sucked into the nightmare, I suppose that would be my choice




Not sure how readily available it is though

If you post your thoughts in the thread on the current nomination (Cameraperson, in this case), you get added to the pool of potential pickers for the next round. Simply pick a movie, DM me with it, and it will be the next film.

Also, here's the first post, which explains how this thread works:

https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=2332642#post2332642

I promise this is a pretty low effort thread (compared to the Hall of Fames).

[SpelingError]

Nomination #22

89887

Thirst Street (2017, Nathan Silver)

Deadline to Watch It: November 21

Nominated By: crumbsroom

[SpelingError]

It's available for free on Tubi, Pluto TV, and Vudu, btw.

[crumbsroom]

If I wasn't worried about posters dropping dead from irritation and despair, I would have nominated Silver's "Stinking Heaven", but I'm nothing if not a kind person. So instead only a dollop of discomfort and misery

[Wyldesyde19]

If I wasn't worried about posters dropping dead from irritation and despair, I would have nominated Silver's "Stinking Heaven", but I'm nothing if not a kind person. So instead only a dollop of discomfort and misery

This looks interesting. A black comedy about a stalker. Never heard of this one, and a quick google reveals it had a severely limited release in theaters.

Definitely looks interesting, and I’ll get to it soon. 👍

[Miss Vicky]

It's available for free on Tubi, Pluto TV, and Vudu, btw.

This is also on Kanopy and it’s short so I may give it a go.

I have to say though that 5.9 IMDb rating does not sound promising.

[Chypmunk]

Unfortunately another that doesn't appear freely available to me. Starting to feel like I live in a cave in the middle of nowhere :D

[SpelingError]

Unfortunately another that doesn't appear freely available to me. Starting to feel like I live in a cave in the middle of nowhere :D
Out of curiosity, do you have access to the streaming services mentioned above?

[Chypmunk]

Out of curiosity, do you have access to the streaming services mentioned above?
Unfortunately no access for me, sites like Tubi and Vudu are geo-restricted. It's fine though - I'm not exactly short of material to watch even without such options.

[SpelingError]

I should get to the movie later today.

[Takoma11]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.slantmagazine.com%2Fassets%2Ffilm%2F28172%2Fthirststreet.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=df844a6313f6985f9d6e2bc2461d779522f46d93a7e1640a80c32939110d559b&ipo=images

Thirst Street, 2017

Gina (Lindsay Burdge) is an American flight attendant who, while on a layover in France, hooks up with bartender Jerome (Damien Bonnard). Gina is still reeling from the loss of her former partner to suicide, and so Gina's fling quickly turns to infatuation. Unfortunately, Jerome does not reciprocate her feelings, but Gina can't or won't take his hints and continues to try to insinuate herself into his life.

Oh, Gina. Gina. Baby. Sweetie. Darling.

I think that it would be easy to look at this film and just say, well this woman is crazy. But what really worked for me---to painful degrees at times--was the understanding of the emotional rollercoaster that underpins such behavior.

If you have ever suffered from moderate or severe social anxiety (as a permanent thing or just something that you dealt with for a while), you will probably recognize a lot of what Gina goes through. When she finds someone who makes her feel safe and appreciated, she becomes overly enthusiastic and attached, and her palpable neediness quickly becomes off-putting. Gina lives the nightmare that most people have experienced---attending a party where you only know one person---and her attempts to be fun and helpful continuously backfire. The patience and strained civility of the other party-goers is misread by Gina as genuine interest.

I think that the film also captures the way that, when you are an inherently timid, reserved person who is risk-averse, when you do finally talk yourself into doing something bold, it can be utterly jarring when your actions don't yield any results. It made me think a bit of that sequence in [B]Frances Ha[/]B where she takes the impromptu trip to Paris. We've been conditioned by movies and TV shows to think that if we just dress ourselves up and put ourselves out there, we are becoming the architects of a better future. No one ever tells you that you might finally work up the nerve to go to a bar or to go to a party or to go to a festival and that . . . yeah, no one will actually talk to you or notice you. Gina keeps making moves that she thinks will be the turning point for her, but at every turn she's unable to do much beyond making that initial move.

Maybe the worst part of it all is that Gina's single-minded ideas about what she wants her life to look like (namely a romance with Jerome) keeps her from capitalizing on the good things that do come her way. Her move to Paris puts her on the radar of Charlie (Lola Bessis) a friendly, queer young woman who befriends Gina and even puts up with Gina's various insecurities and unintentional slights. There are opportunities there for Gina to make real human connections, but she is so fixated on a single version of happiness that she lets people who care for her fall to the side. She leaves voice messages from her flight attendant friend unanswered, simply icing out someone who is clearly an ally and clearly rooting for her. While I was never fully on Gina's side through the film, a real turning point for me was her cruel dismissal of Charlie ("I'm not going to f*ck you!"). It's a level of unkindness that even the characters who dislike Gina have held back from.

Despite feeling a bit sorry for Gina because her miseries, anxieties and tics are, ahem, things that I have experienced in the past, the film is a great illustration of the danger of seeing yourself as the hero in your own story. Gina slowly and steadily crosses boundaries, and you understand why Jerome hesitates to be more explicit about his lack of interest. Late in the film he tells her that he was upfront with her, but I disagree. Jerome merely implied a lack of interest and by not being direct he allows Gina to make her own reading of his statements. The lengths Gina goes to in the final act are upsetting. While Jerome wasn't always the nicest person, no one deserves to be stalked. Gina's inability to think about how her actions must read to him is a huge red flag in terms of her very limited perspective and lack of empathy. Gina is a case study in the way that someone can be at once very emotionally sensitive, but only to their own emotions while being willfully oblivious to the feelings of others.

Burdge gives Gina a dangerous, wounded air. Gina is fragile, but fragile like a glass perched on the edge of a counter. One wrong bump and there's going to be broken glass in your foot. Bonnard does very good work as Jerome, giving Jerome enough charisma that we sense that he's overall not a bad guy and giving dimension to the victim of Gina's obsessions.

I'm not entirely sure where I come down on the very last act. Not only in the way that it ends in a literal sense, but the use of fantasy sequences. I much preferred the earlier use of colors and close-ups to indicate the intensity and degradation of Gina's mental wellbeing. (And I was particularly taken by the use of the intense neon colors and the way that they contrast with the more neutral colors of Gina's apartment).

Special shout out to Anjelica Huston's warm, quirky narration.

Special reminder to please not touch people who clearly have pink eye.

4

[Miss Vicky]

Yeah, no.

https://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/2010s/thirst.gif

Thirst Street (Nathan Silver, 2017)

They should've called this thing Cringe Street. Don't get me wrong, the acting is good and the story is fine but this just views as a cautionary tale about not putting your dick in crazy and I'm not so much into that. I thought the characters themselves were believable enough, but Gina was incredibly off-putting from the start, well before she let her crazy flag fly. Not that I have any sympathy at all for Mr. "I Like It Natural" Strip Club Bartender Jerome whose red flags were just as apparent as his pink eye. But sure, let's obsess over this unattractive douchebag because he showed a little interest. Ugh. I couldn't stand either of them and between my aversion to both characters and my hatred for all but a select few movies that feature narration, I was not having a good time with this at all.

2

[SpelingError]

Just finished Thirst Street, and I really enjoyed it. I probably wouldn't have heard of it if it wasn't nominated in this thread, so glad it was nominated. I generally dig movies about obsession, and this one was no exception.

[gbgoodies]

I watched Thirst Street (2017), but it was a very uncomfortable watch. Gina just seemed like a creepy stalker who's mentally unstable, and Jerome wasn't much better. Not surprisingly, this just isn't my kind of movie.

[mattiasflgrtll6]

Well, it is called Thirst Street after all.

[WrinkledMind]

Watched Thirst Street. Thought it was decent watch. I found the female lead unlikeable.i didn't mind her choices, how much ever bad they were, kinda made her feel not the typical reel character.


Thanks for the recommendation crumbsroom

[Takoma11]

I think we should be concerned about anyone who reviews Thirst Street and notes that they found Gina likable.

[Captain Terror]

Thirst Street sounds like a cringe-tastic nightmare.

*adds to watchlist*

[seanc]

I think we should be concerned about anyone who reviews Thirst Street and notes that they found Gina likable.

Unlikable characters is like calling a movie boring for me. If you don’t like a movie it’s an easy target. I’m not saying it’s always invalid, but for most film fans it’s easy to point to hundreds of examples of movies you like where the same criticism could be used.

[mattiasflgrtll6]

In most cases we want characters to be understandable. Even if they are terrible people, you want to understand why they do what they do. If you don't, then it usually ends up being a waste of time since you're just confused and annoyed by their actions. The worst kind of character in my opinion is one who's supposed to be likable, yet their behavior constantly demonstrates the opposite. A prime example is Andie McDowell in Four Weddings And A Funeral. It's a good movie generally, but God her character drove me crazy. Eventually her manipulative bullshit had gotten so bad I was left wondering what the hell Hugh Grant even sees in her.

[SpelingError]

Complaining about unlikable characters is...fair, I guess. Like, if the film you were watching wasn't the pleasure seeking vehicle you hoped it would be, I guess it's fair to criticize that aspect.

I've just always found it odd how most of the people who use that criticism tend to use it for characters with relatively low stake flaws ("This character is a bully", "This character is rude to their family", "This character is a bad parent", etc.) and ignore it for films with murderers as the main characters like The Godfather, Goodfellas, Le Samourai, Pulp Fiction, etc. The main characters in those films are far worse than Gina is.

Overall, I think unlikable characters can be just as complex, layered, and interesting as likable characters, so I feel that dismissing those films with "I found them unlikable" is oftentimes barely scratching the surface of the complexities of those characters.

[SpelingError]

In most cases we want characters to be understandable. Even if they are terrible people, you want to understand why they do what they do.

I would say that Thirst Street accomplishes that.

[Yoda]

I think it depends. If we're supposed to like them (or at least sympathize with them) and we don't, the criticism is valid.

If we're not supposed to like them, it can still be valid to criticize on the grounds that you/we don't typically enjoy stories centered around bad people.

If we're not supposed to like them, but you literally never like (or, more likely, never really give a chance to) stories centered around bad people, then I think we loop around to it being a problem (so to speak) with the viewer, since it seems extreme not just to prefer some types of stories, but to be functionally incapable of appreciating or enjoying any others. That suggests, at minimum, an inability to occasionally step outside oneself to evaluate things.

This isn't meant to describe anyone, just riffing off the concept being discussed.

[SpelingError]

Anyways...

Current candidates to host the next round:

Takoma11
Miss Vicky
gbgoodies
WrinkledMind

You guys have about 24 more hours to watch the film.

[Chypmunk]

With the WC starting in under an hour and up to four matches per day I doubt I'll get much time to movie-watch over the remaining weeks until the deadline so I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank Speling for both coming up with the idea and running this thread - a great idea, a shame I ended up not being able to contribute more to it but enjoyable nonetheless. Thanks also to all those that took part and offered up nominations :up:

[SpelingError]

With the WC starting in under an hour and up to four matches per day I doubt I'll get much time to movie-watch over the remaining weeks until the deadline so I just wanted to take the opportunity to thank Speling for both coming up with the idea and running this thread - a great idea, a shame I ended up not being able to contribute more to it but enjoyable nonetheless. Thanks also to all those that took part and offered up nominations :up:

Glad you enjoyed this thread! Also, be sure to submit your ballot ;)

[Miss Vicky]

See the issue for me is that when I say a character is unlikable, I don't necessarily just mean that they're bad people. I mean that I don't like to watch them. I don't require characters to be people that I would like in real life. There are plenty of movies with terrible people in them that I enjoy, but what I require in a movie is that it follow characters that I want to watch. Maybe I want to watch them because their terribleness is kind of funny or because their terribleness is creepy and intriguing. Or maybe I like the way their terribleness works as a balance to a character who is good. For me, Gina was not funny, or creepy, or intriguing. There also was no balance because I found Jerome equally off-putting and so I didn't really care about the horrible things she did, not even on a wanting bad things to happen to him kind of level.

[mattiasflgrtll6]

Spot-on. I haven't seen Thirst Street, but what you describe is exactly why Margot At The Wedding is one of my most hated movies ever. Margot isn't fun to watch, she's not interesting and I don't give a shit what happens to her. In fact pretty much all of the characters in it seem to be that way. They are shitty people who never learn anything plus are complete and utter bores to watch.

[Citizen Rules]

IMO: all criticisms of a movie are equally legit. The more those criticisms are spelled out, the more illuminating and informative they become. It's fine to not like a movie because you can't stand a character. It's equally fine to like a movie because the character is a slime ball. Reviewing a film as 'engaging' is as fair game as reviewing a film as 'boring'. Both are one word descriptors of how the movie made the reviewer feel. As always more in depth reasons why a film was 'engaging' or 'boring' helps explain one's reasoning to the reader.

What I don't think is right is: labeling people who don't like the movie with some insulting label. I've seen this done on MoFo far too often and even if it's done as a generality it can be a trigger and hurtful to others. It's an insecure person who needs to put down other people to justify their own views.

[mattiasflgrtll6]

I agree. I can take issue if the person dislikes the movie for some bigoted reason (Which unfortunately happens often with ones starring LGBT+/minority characters), but if it just wasn't their thing then that's that. I admittedly let my emotions get the better of me occasionally, but am staunchly against stereotyping people because of their preferences. Star Wars fans start frothing at the mouth if you happen to think the new trilogy has redeeming qualities, throwing around labels like "real fan" or saying you have awful taste. Similarly I also can't stand when someone really loves a movie, and snarkily tells every person "You didn't get it" or "This movie is OBJECTIVELY better than that one" if they dare not feel the same way. For example, I posted about how Cemetery Of Splendor is a boring and pretentious piece of crap, and when I mentioned Tarkovsky as someone who's better at meditative cinema they refused to believe me and for some reason thought "But you like Star Trek" was a valid argument. Good grief.

[Takoma11]

Unlikable characters is like calling a movie boring for me. If you don’t like a movie it’s an easy target. I’m not saying it’s always invalid, but for most film fans it’s easy to point to hundreds of examples of movies you like where the same criticism could be used.

Right.

I mean, I didn't like Gina. I felt sorry for her at times. I thought that the movie did a good job of showing us her thought processes and where they go really wrong for her. The way that she tries to chase a life she wants, but ends up alienating everyone along the way.

We have a student in our building right now who is like this. She repeatedly crosses boundaries, she makes other kids uncomfortable, she sometimes lashes out at others. By any metric, I don't think you can call her likable. But she is a real person with real feelings, and it's a really unfortunate expression of her desire to have people like her and care about her.

Like Yoda says, calling a character unlikable seems strange to me as a criticism unless the framing of the movie clearly indicates that you're supposed to like and root for the person. I think it's pretty clear from the outset that we're not supposed to like Gina, but rather observe the slow downward spiral of someone chasing a dream that just isn't going to happen.

I do understand the criticism that a character was unbearable to spend time with. Sometimes no matter how well acted or well shot or whatever, it's like "I do not want to watch this person for another minute!"


Anyway, in case it wasn't clear, my original comment was just a joke and not some sort of attack on Wrinkled Mind for noting the character's unlikability.

[SpelingError]

Agreed, but I don't think anyone here has been insulting in this discussion. Admittedly, complaining about unlikeable characters isn't a criticism that I understand that well (most of the time) and I think it's the kind of criticism that's hard to convince me of, at least compared to some other criticisms I commonly see since most people who use it mean it in the sense of "This character should've been likable".

However, I'm definitely open to letting people elaborate on why they took issue with that aspect. For instance, I think Miss Vicky gave a fair explanation for her stance up above, so no issues there from me.

[Citizen Rules]

... Admittedly, complaining about unlikeable characters isn't a criticism that I understand that well (most of the time) and I think it's the kind of criticism that's hard to convince me of, at least compared to some other criticisms I commonly see since most people who use it mean it in the sense of "This character should've been likable".That's probably true, that many who say they find a character unlikable mean the character should have had more redeemable qualities. Though there could be other reasons, like the one Miss Vicky gave which is also an understandable reaction.

I've watched movies where I hated the character so much I wanted to reach through the TV screen and slap them. Maybe they were meant to be that way, or maybe they weren't, actually it wouldn't matter to me. What matters to me is if I hate them to the point of ruining the movie then that's just the way I feel.

[SpelingError]

That's probably true, that many who say they find a character unlikable mean the character should have had more redeemable qualities. Though there could be other reasons, like the one Miss Vicky gave which is also an understandable reaction.

I've watched movies where I hated the character so much I wanted to reach through the TV screen and slap them. Maybe they were meant to be that way, or maybe they weren't, actually it wouldn't matter to me. What matters to me is if I hate them to the point of ruining the movie then that's just the way I feel.
That's a fair reason as well.

I can't think of any examples off the top of my head right now, but since it was brought up, I'm sure I could come up with some characters I found uninteresting and dull in the past. Assuming those characters I find uninteresting happen to be unlikable as well, I think my criticism for finding them unlikable would just be because I found them dull and uninteresting, not necessarily finding them unlikable due to some actions they did which I found bad or immoral.

I think this is what you and Vicky mean though, so all's good 👍

[Citizen Rules]

That's a fair reason as well.

I can't think of any examples off the top of my head right now, but since it was brought up, I'm sure I could come up with some characters I found uninteresting and dull in the past. Assuming those characters I find uninteresting happen to be unlikable as well, I think my criticism for finding them unlikable would just be because I found them dull and uninteresting, not necessarily finding them unlikable due to some actions they did which I found bad or immoral.

I think this is what you and Vicky mean though, so all's good 👍I can't speak for Miss Vicky maybe she'll post more about her thoughts... But for me there's been times where I had a visceral reaction of straight up hatred for a character and it wasn't because they were dull or boring. Often it's also because I hated the movie. The last time I hated characters and wish they would just die was Magnolia. Well here's an excerpt of what I said about it:

Magnolia, So, I set through three hours of caterwauling potty mouth by hyperactive cartoonish characters only to find outthat the frogs did it!
I really, really hated this. I've never spent a longer three hours of my life watching such bombastic characters and badly written dialogue. Not everyone, everywhere punctuates every other sentence with F**** but in Magnolia every character spoke the same way and had the same rage dialogue delivered in monologue style. That made it clear to me that only one person was speaking through all of these characters, which then caused me to see everyone in this movie as actors and not the people they were suppose to be portraying. I never once felt anything for anyone. Though I was disappointed that William H. Macy didn't end up killing everyone in the movie.

[SpelingError]

I can't speak for Miss Vicky maybe she'll post more about her thoughts... But for me there's been times where I had a visceral reaction of straight up hatred for a character and it wasn't because they were dull or boring. Often it's also because I hated the movie. The last time I hated characters and wish they would just die was Magnolia. Well here's an excerpt of what I said about it:

Magnolia, So, I set through three hours of caterwauling potty mouth by hyperactive cartoonish characters only to find outthat the frogs did it!
I really, really hated this. I've never spent a longer three hours of my life watching such bombastic characters and badly written dialogue. Not everyone, everywhere punctuates every other sentence with F**** but in Magnolia every character spoke the same way and had the same rage dialogue delivered in monologue style. That made it clear to me that only one person was speaking through all of these characters, which then caused me to see everyone in this movie as actors and not the people they were suppose to be portraying. I never once felt anything for anyone. Though I was disappointed that William H. Macy didn't end up killing everyone in the movie.
Aw, I love Magnolia :(

[Citizen Rules]

Aw, I love Magnolia :(Sorry!:)

I really was livid during my viewing of it, luckily I don't throw things at the TV screen:eek:

[WrinkledMind]

I think we should be concerned about anyone who reviews Thirst Street and notes that they found Gina likable.


Reckon this was directed at me.


I have seen movies with unlikeable characters like Gone Girl, Night crawler, etc (at the top of my head) whom I still ended up enjoying. Not here though. I just couldn't stand Gina.

[Takoma11]

Reckon this was directed at me.

I have seen movies with unlikeable characters like Gone Girl, Night crawler, etc (at the top of my head) whom I still ended up enjoying. Not here though. I just couldn't stand Gina.

It wasn't directed at anyone in particular. I just thought that it was funny that there were three reviews in a row that noted not liking the main character, because the character is so obviously meant to be unlikable.

Like if three reviews in a row of American Psycho said, "Patrick Bateman was a real sociopath" and I remarked "I think we should be worried if anyone watched American Psycho and thinks Bateman is a nice guy."

It was in no way a criticism or disagreement with anyone's reviews.

[Miss Vicky]

My biggest issue with Gina is that she goes beyond being unlikeable and is straight up irritating - not just to the characters around her but to me as a viewer.

[Takoma11]

My biggest issue with Gina is that she goes beyond being unlikeable and is straight up irritating - not just to the characters around her but to me as a viewer.

I have to admit, the one time I did like her just a bit was when she got drunk and let Jerome take her to the abortion clinic only to let the doctor be like, "Yeah, she's not pregnant, just had a lot of alcohol."

I mean, that is some A+ trolling and a fitting retribution for any guy who would reject using birth control.

She's definitely a lot to take, but a character who almost compulsively messes up that way is kind of compelling to me. Sort of like Robert Pattinson's character in Good Time.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Takoma11
Miss Vicky
gbgoodies
WrinkledMind

[SpelingError]

Nomination #23

89918

Lady Macbeth (2016, William Oldroyd)

Deadline to Watch It: November 24

Nominated By: Miss Vicky

[SpelingError]

I've heard of this one, but I haven't given it much priority. Curious what I'll think of it.

[crumbsroom]

Movies are very much a spiritual and an intellectual experience for me. But probably above both of those things, movies are an emotional experience. So I believe for art to have any real value, we have to be honest about our reactions towards it. And this means you can never be wrong in your emotional response. This would include hating something because the characters are unlikeable, regardless of it being the films intent. I certainly did when I watched In the Company of Men many years ago, and it hardly mattered much to me that I was supposed to hate the characters. I was aware that this was the films design, but it didn't matter. That hate bled over towards the movie, and once that happens, what can you do other than just keep hating.



But just because it is kind of antithetical to the purpose of art to deny our emotional response to a film, this doesn't mean that somehow all critiques are created equal. Because of course they aren't. Film criticism is an actual thing. It demands we engage with the actual intentions of the film, how the film elicits its influence on the audience, or fits into the evolution of cinema as an artform. And in regards to our finicky emotions, criticism should do its best to pinpoint the cinematic techniques it succeeds at or flubs in getting us to respond emotionally.



Film criticism is a skill that becomes honed over time and experience and can't just be replaced by anyone's whims. We shouldn't be democratizing thought to the point where even things that were never thought upon in the first place qualify as thinking. Emotions and criticism, while undoubtedly related, are still very, very separate things. Any attempts to play otherwise, and say everyones opinions are equal, is the equivalent of putting a child's shitty drawing up on the fridge as if it is actually any good...except we're all adults here, and we are still drawing like shit, and we are still demanding to be rewarded for it. It's something we should be too embarrassed by to even contemplate.



Now to be clear, I don't actually think those who hate Thirst Street have done this in this thread (as in offering up their response as a fully formed film critique). It seems to me that those that don't like it are simply saying 'not my kind of movie' and that's fine. It's definitely not going to be a crowd pleaser. Gina is unlikeable. Gina is annoying. And some people aren't going to want to spend time watching someone in a movie that they would loathe to be in the same room with in real life. The hate is understandable.


As for my personal feelings on the movie, I didn't rewatch it as I planned, but I think Takoma probably covered anything I would have anyways. While Gina is definitely a chore at times to spend time with, there are more than enough overt and not so overt ways the film tries to get us to at least understand why she has become like this. And while the film never really asks us to entirely sympathize with her (some actions, of course, are well beyond being sympathetic no matter her reasons for them), I think there is something valuable in a movie like this in the way it at least postulates the notion of having empathy for her. To recognize in her many of the same frailties we might too possess, and that we thankfully can manage much more successfully than she does.



Clearly for some though, this empathy doesn't happen. Some viewers just stop at being annoyed by her and check out. Which is their prerogative. You can't deny our emotional response. But I think if I have any sadness about the (mostly understandable) hatred Gina elicits in so many viewers, its that people seem very reluctant to see anything of themselves in her. Now its possible that everyone else out there is so well adjusted with whatever neurosis' they may have that Gina is a completely alien creature to them. They don't remotely understand the shame of being pushed in a corner, or not fitting in, or being desperate for some kind of inclusion to the point that irrational behavior is just bubbling beneath the surface. But I think an awful lot of the time that maybe, at least for some, its is our resistance to her is we don't want to recognize these negative elements of hers in ourselves. I know for me, when I first watched Welcome to the Dollhouse, I could barely tolerate the experience. I hated that girl. I just wanted to shake her and make her be at least a little bit normal. To stop digging one social hole after another for her to fall into. But after further viewings I realize my hatred of her was a recognition of 'oh, shit, was that me in highschool'. And in a lot of ways it was. And in every way, at the time of that first viewing, I didn't want to be reminded of it. But now that I'm a clearly well adjusted and normal human being, I have come to embrace that weird girl inside of me, and it is probably one of my favorite comedies from the last thirty years. And while I still don't like her, I empathize with her. Maybe in the same way I wanted others to empathize with me.



Anyways, as always, I'm diverging all over the place. Basically, to sum it all up, I think Thirst Street is a pretty great film that is by design always going to have a pretty limited audience (I shudder to think how Silver's other film Stinking Heaven would go over if this movie was too cringe...I definitely saved some lives). And its fine that some people are going to hate it. But this hate also can't help me feel a sense of loss at the potential these kinds of aggressively unpleasant characters can have for us. They offer us the ability to connect with the uglier elements we hide within ourselves. And, through doing this, it allows us to have some kind of kinship with people whose behavior or personality might instinctively put us off. Maybe not enough to ever be friends with them, or even particularly like them. But at least to tolerate and empathize with all the sad ways people can be broken in this life.

[Wyldesyde19]

Lady Mecbeth is a pretty good film. Love me some Miss Flo, who’s become a must watch actress for me.

Now, if I can only forget her appearance in Black Widow…..

[Miss Vicky]

Lady Macbeth was one of the first movies I rewatched in preparation for this countdown. While I don't love it the way I love the other two films I picked, I think it's a gorgeous movie with a really amazing central performance.

https://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/2010s/ladymacbeth.gif

Lady Macbeth (William Oldroyd, 2016)
(Rewatch)

Lady Macbeth is gorgeously shot with a palatte of earth tones and black, with just a little pop of color here and there. And it was really the look of this film that seduced me when I first saw its trailer back in 2016.

But that's not what really makes this a memorable experience. For that you must look to its central performance. Florence Pugh is absolutely chilling as Katherine - a woman who, once finding a taste of freedom in her otherwise stifling life, goes to increasingly cruel measures to keep it. She is calculating, remorseless, and will take out anyone who gets in her way.

Yet this is not a movie that is particularly violent. There are a few bursts of action and it clocks in at only about 90 minutes, but it burns at almost a snail's pace. It also almost completely lacks a score. There's virtually no music to instruct or manipulate your emotions. You are simply presented with a set of people and circumstances and are left to judge them for yourself.

As for me, I come away from it not knowing entirely how to feel about Katherine and her crimes, and I love that about it. It still remains to be seen if this will make the final cut for me, but its definitely not out of contention yet.

4

[Allaby]

I watched Lady Macbeth. Florence Pugh is great, but I didn't find the story all that interesting. It was fine, but I don't think I would rewatch it at any point. 3.

[Takoma11]

Lady Macbeth was one of the first movies I rewatched in preparation for this countdown. While I don't love it the way I love the other two films I picked, I think it's a gorgeous movie with a really amazing central performance.

Your review of it a little while back put it back on my radar. Excited to watch it this week.

[Takoma11]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn.newsapi.com.au%2Fimage%2Fv1%2F8d34bc4661618e935a2a868166317399&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=e18e2778551d250384c4cdb4ae13b6c945cf6a68158ff913b49888ba95078c56&ipo=images

Lady Macbeth, 2016

Katherine (Florence Pugh) is a young women married to a much older man named Alexander (Paul Hilton), who seems to only enjoy her companionship to the degree that he can humiliate and control her. The couple lives with Alexander's father, Boris (Christopher Fairbank), and Katherine faces constant reproaches at the hands of both men. But when Alexander and Boris are both called away, Katherine begins an affair with a worker on the property called Sebastian (Cosmo Jarvis). Enthralled with both her sexual liberation and her role as mistress of the house, Katherine begins to take steps to make her power more permanent.

A slightly muted period piece with themes and layers about control and power, lush costuming, and great performances? Just inject it directly into my veins, already!

Yes, this is the kind of film I really love. True to her namesake in the title, Katherine's defining characteristic is her cold-bloodedness, but her story is given a bit more nuance because of the nuances of power and the precariousness of her position due to her social class and gender. Ultimately, Katherine is able to overcome these barriers to power, but at great, great cost to others.

The initial feeling you get toward Katherine is one of sympathy. On their wedding night her new husband orders her to stay confined to the house. When she objects that she likes walking outdoors he orders her to undress. When she is nude, he sizes her up and then makes a point of going to bed without her. Her life is a series of humiliations and pain punctuating a dull everyday existence of sitting alone in the home's living room, her waist painfully cinched for an audience of, well, no one.

But a real turning point, and the moment the film lets us know quite firmly that Katherine's is not the worst lot, is when Katherine finds the house's maidservant, Anna (Naomi Ackie) being sexually assaulted and humiliated by some of the male laborers, led by Sebastian. Katherine's takeaway from this horrifying scene is not sympathy for Anna, but rather sexual intrigue as she sizes up Sebastian.

Most of the horror of what Katherine does isn't centered on her victims (though obviously there is one really big exception to this!), but for me the way that she so easily shunts the blame onto those with less power, usually Anna. When Katherine drinks all of her father-in-law's favorite wine, Anna must report to him that the wine has run out. Unable to sell out Katherine, Anna must settle for telling Boris that she doesn't know where the wine has gone. Angry, Boris forces Anna to crawl on the ground like a dog. Katherine looks on with barely contained mirth. While we the audience might be okay with Katherine seeking revenge on the men who have made her life miserable, you can't help but be appalled by the impact that she has on Anna's wellbeing.

Her relationship with Sebastian likewise goes on a crazy arc of shifting power. In the beginning, Sebastian is very forward with her. He picks her up in the out-building and she must push him off of her. Later he boldly breaks into her bedroom. But whereas Sebastian walks around with quite a bit of swagger, he is totally unprepared for the shamelessness with which Katherine will pursue her own desires. Katherine is chided several times in the film for being "shameless", and she actually discovers that her lack of shame (or guilt, or remorse) is her secret, sociopathic superpower.

If I had one criticism of the film, it would be that Katherine's endgame didn't seem that clear to me. Sure, we know that she is ruthless. An early warning comes when she tells Sebastian that she's rather he die before he not believe she loves him. Not that she'd rather die than be apart, but that she'd rather see him dead. But where does this ruthlessness come from? We get hints that she is not from a wealthy family. She speaks very little of her mother. Toward the end I just started to wonder what she actually wanted. And, hey, maybe this was just a case of someone rolling down a hill with no brakes, having to merely dodge obstacles to stay alive. Even at the end I wasn't sure about how she felt regarding her pregnancy. There's something a bit unresolved about the character, but not in a productively ambiguous way. The same thing is true, in a lesser way, of the character of Alexander. Like, he won't even have sex with her for a formality? Maybe the implication is that he doesn't want another kid so that Teddy will stay his only heir?.

Pugh's performance is really excellent. Ackie's performance is a really strong foil---the stronger Katherine becomes, the weaker Anna becomes, to the point of literal muteness. Jarvis brings confident boisterousness to Sebastian, something that starts to crumble as he realizes the lengths to which Katherine will go and the smothering effect of her love.

As I mentioned in the beginning of this review, I thought that the costumes were great. In particular the blue dress Katherine wears often. The lush colors of her clothing only call attention to the fact that she is almost completely socially isolated, dressed up only for a husband who won't sleep with her. I really liked the direction of the film and especially the editing (such as that hilarious smash cut from Katherine passionately making love to Sebastian to her sitting composed in the living room being served tea with the local pastor).

A strong film and noteworthy for Pugh's excellent lead performance.

4

[Frightened Inmate No. 2]

i watched lady macbeth. idk, didn't really like it too much. i can vibe with sparseness and cruelty in my indie period dramas but this one was just a bit too vapid and lacking any psychological insight. i was mildly positive on it for most of the runtime but then the ending really didn't work for me and kinda cemented what the film had been lacking. like the whole time the characters are just these remorseless cyphers in a wholly amoral film– not an inherently bad thing– but then the ending introduces the idea of them maybe having a moral compass and it just doesn't register at all because they'd heretofore only been these distant symbols of oppression and empowerment, not individuals with inner lives. however, i will say that there is a degree of richness in its individuated power dynamics that's somewhat impressive for something this sparse and lacking in specificity. also a solid performance from florence pugh, barring the miscalculation of playing her character as something of a sociopath from the start, robbing the audience of any real transformation. altogether not a bad movie but not a successful one. 2.5+

[Miss Vicky]

If I had one criticism of the film, it would be that Katherine's endgame didn't seem that clear to me. Sure, we know that she is ruthless. An early warning comes when she tells Sebastian that she's rather he die before he not believe she loves him. Not that she'd rather die than be apart, but that she'd rather see him dead. But where does this ruthlessness come from? We get hints that she is not from a wealthy family. She speaks very little of her mother. Toward the end I just started to wonder what she actually wanted. And, hey, maybe this was just a case of someone rolling down a hill with no brakes, having to merely dodge obstacles to stay alive. Even at the end I wasn't sure about how she felt regarding her pregnancy.

I don't know that she necessarily has an endgame, except to hold onto what she has for as long as she possibly can. I think while she does seem to take some pleasure in the cruelties she inflicts on the others around her, the driving force for her is desperation and self-preservation.

As to that last spoiler? My assumption would be that it would end up being another victim, but I kind of like that the movie doesn't tell us.

There's something a bit unresolved about the character, but not in a productively ambiguous way. The same thing is true, in a lesser way, of the character of Alexander. Like, he won't even have sex with her for a formality? Maybe the implication is that he doesn't want another kid so that Teddy will stay his only heir?.

I agree that the film doesn't really do a very good job of letting us understand his motivations (though I'm not convinced that we need to know them), but I got the impression that it was an arranged marriage - likely arranged by his father - and that it wasn't so much Katherine that he hated but being forced into the situation, and she became the target of his misdirected anger. So his refusal to consummate it may have been done in spite to his father. But at this point I'm just guessing here.

[Takoma11]

I don't know that she necessarily has an endgame, except to hold onto what she has for as long as she possibly can. I think while she does seem to take some pleasure in the cruelties she inflicts on the others around her, the driving force for her is desperation and self-preservation.

As to that last spoiler? My assumption would be that it would end up being another victim, but I kind of like that the movie doesn't tell us.

I guess that I was just a little surprised that Katherine would take such risks. For example, killing Teddy puts her and Sebastian under a lot of danger and suspicion. We clearly see that she does it to appease Sebastian and keep him from leaving. It's a very human moment--she wants to keep him, not just her position. If she just wanted to stay mistress of the house, building a good relationship with Teddy and his grandmother would seem like a safer pass. She kills Teddy so soon after doing away with two other people.

I would have liked maybe a little more insight into her desires.

I agree that the film doesn't really do a very good job of letting us understand his motivations (though I'm not convinced that we need to know them), but I got the impression that it was an arranged marriage - likely arranged by his father - and that it wasn't so much Katherine that he hated but being forced into the situation, and she became the target of his misdirected anger. So his refusal to consummate it may have been done in spite to his father. But at this point I'm just guessing here.

I totally agree that the marriage is arranged. And maybe the implication is that [SPOILERS]he is exclusively into Black women? But at the same time he is willing to masturbate while looking at her. And, yeah, maybe he's just spiting his father and Katherine is a convenient target for his anger.

At the same time, he could have been almost completely hands-off with a child and it would have given Katherine something to keep her busy. Him withholding from sex (even just "get it over with" sex) seemed a bit odd to me.


But I should say that these were relatively minor complaints. They were what maybe kept if from being a 4.5.

[SpelingError]

Just finished Lady Macbeth, and I enjoyed it quite a bit. It won't make my ballot, but it's still very good.

[gbgoodies]

I watched Lady Macbeth (2016), but it's just not my type of movie. Katherine is a cruel person who has no problems murdering anyone who gets in her way. I thought the movie was boring, and I don't really enjoy movies about lust. (I prefer movies about love and romance, not lust.)

[WrinkledMind]

Just finished watching Lady Macbeth. It felt like a realistic take on a tale of those times.


We don't get Pugh's reasons and her impulsive decisions do a good job in further establishing her character who seems tired and angry, and desperate to break free, and get what she wants. So much so that in the end she even finds Sebastian expendable to save herself.


I felt bad only for Anna. There are timid people like those, who suffer for no fault of their own.


It's a beautifully shot movie. And Florence stands out, though Naomi Ackie also did a splendid job portraying the timid Anna, as well.


Thanks for the recommendation Miss Vicky

[Takoma11]

I felt bad only for Anna. There are timid people like those, who suffer for no fault of their own.

I think that the extent to which Anna is included in the film (and the multiple times the camera lingers on her like when she's crying in the stairway or forced to crawl out of the dining room) is really critical to making it clear where Katherine has crossed a line and the different levels of power at play.

I do think that you can have some sympathy for Katherine at the beginning, because she is under her husband's power, she's been "sold" to him, etc. But Anna has maybe much more literally been sold, and she's the main way that we see just how much Katherine only cares about herself.

The two standout scenes to me are the part where Anna is crying in the stairwell and Katherine is basically like "So who was that hot guy who was sexually assaulting you?". And then later a much more subdued moment when Katherine asks Anna to tell her about home, and Anna's like, "I don't even remember a home."

[SpelingError]

Current candidates to host the next round:

Frightened Inmate No. 2

You guys have about 24 more hours left to watch the film.

[WrinkledMind]

Takoma11
Agree. And I too had sympathy for Katherine, up until the moment with the kid.


And apart from the two scenes you mentioned, the other scene I felt was powerful and well acted was when the group confront Anna about the murder and she just gives up. It sort of conveyed that she knew that she had no power in that social circle, and accepts her fate. That was brilliant acting, just using her face.

[Takoma11]

Takoma11
Agree. And I too had sympathy for Katherine, up until the moment with the kid.


And apart from the two scenes you mentioned, the other scene I felt was powerful and well acted was when the group confront Anna about the murder and she just gives up. It sort of conveyed that she knew that she had no power in that social circle, and accepts her fate. That was brilliant acting, just using her face.

Exactly. Anna literally loses her voice and I think it's implied from what the other woman servant says to her that Anna has gone mute before as a result of trauma. It's such a cruel moment because of the way Katherine frames it: "Anna will deny it if it's not true", knowing full well that Anna won't be denying anything.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Frightened Inmate No. 2

You guys have about 24 more hours left to watch the film.

EDIT: I meant to write "Current candidates to host the next round" since there's still 24 hours left for this round. Sorry for the confusion.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Frightened Inmate No. 2

[SpelingError]

Nomination #24

89964

Good Manners (2017, Juliana Rojas and Marco Dutra)

Deadline to Watch It: November 27

Nominated By: Frightened Inmate No. 2

[Frightened Inmate No. 2]

randomly watched this movie like four years ago with no expectations and found it to be one of the most moving films i’ve ever seen. hope a few of you check it out (and don’t read anything about it if you can avoid it)

[SpelingError]

randomly watched this movie like four years ago with no expectations and found it to be one of the most moving films i’ve ever seen. hope a few of you check it out (and don’t read anything about it if you can avoid it)
I'll get to it tomorrow.

[cricket]

On Tubi

[Takoma11]

Cool nomination! I watched this one last year and quite enjoyed it! Here's what I wrote:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fbloody-disgusting.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F09%2FGood-Manners.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

Good Manners, 2017

Clara (Isabel Zuaa) is hired as a housekeeper/live-in companion for Ana (Marjorie Estiano), a woman who is single and very pregnant. But it soon becomes clear that not all is right with Ana and/or her unborn child. As romantic tension grows between the two women, Ana's anxiety about her impending birth builds. The second half of the film deals with the repercussions following the birth of Ana's child, Joel (Miguel Lobo).

It's hard to know how much to say about the plot progression of this film, especially as the film's poster seems to bluntly put it out there. Without going into too much detail, lest someone really want to avoid knowing anything about the plot, the film eventually comes around to the familiar question of what a person does when someone they love turns out to be dangerous, possibly irredeemably so.

The strength of this film is the way that love, loyalty, and fierceness pinball between Clara, Ana, and Joel. What is love? To what degree is it out of our control? And what would we do for someone we love?

At times, the film walks a really brilliant line between tragedy and comedy. One sequence that sticks out is a part in which Clara follows a sleepwalking Ana out into the streets in the middle of the night. What Clara eventually sees is gruesome, and the film uses a stark cut to go from the gore to Ana bouncing around in the living room, living her best life while doing a dance Zumba workout. The second half of the film veers away from the comedy and embraces a more straight-ahead drama/thriller/horror approach.

My only real issue with the film--aside from some questionable CGI at times--was my sense that Joel was not developed well enough to give the film the emotional heft it needs at the very end of the film. Now, just to be clear, I actually really, REALLY loved the ending of the film and thought that it went to an unexpected place. But because of the way that the film jumps forward in time, we meet Joel at a moment when he is beginning to question and rebel. The problem is that this means we mostly see him in whiny child mode. Clara is pretty well developed as a character, as is Ana, and Joel's relatively skimpy character development makes for a lopsided dynamic as the film heads into its final act.

I thought that this was an interesting little fantasy/horror, and I appreciated several ways in which it deviated from what seemed to be foregone directions in the narrative.

4

[SpelingError]

Just finished Good Manners, and I thought it was good. While watching it, I thought of Titane, which has some similar themes and is, in my opinion, the better film since the character motivations were more believable and interesting in it. I still thought this was pretty good though. I enjoyed the first hour quite a lot and, though some of the character motivations and narrative choices briefly took me out of the film after that, the final hour was (mostly) able to keep me on board.

[cricket]

Good Manners

https://media1.fdncms.com/rochester/imager/u/original/8254187/good_manners.jpg

I wasn't planning on participating in Group Watch going forward as much as I have been but this movie piqued my interest. There's still quite a few I want to see before I submit my ballot and being incapacitated for a few days set me back. I'm glad I went ahead and watched Good Manners.

Knew nothing going in and that was cool. Was immediately gripped even though the film takes its time. I think I liked the two main characters. They were likable and each had an air of mystery about them. I didn't have any idea where everything was going. I've seen enough of a certain type of film to eventually get some ideas, which made me even more interested given where I was currently at. Like SpelingError, I also thought of recent new favorite Titane, I think because each is like two movies in one. This is a bold move that can be jarring, but it really pays off when it works. I'll refrain from talking about the plot but I liked everything about this. I wasn't as moved as some people, but I wasn't unaffected either. It's a unique film that I thought was gorgeously made and it kept me invested the whole time. Great pick!

4

[SpelingError]

Current candidates to host the next round:

Takoma11
cricket

You guys have about 24 more hours to watch the film.

[WrinkledMind]

Just finished watching Good Manners.

My only two issues were that it could have been tighter in the first half, and then used that time to tell us more about Joel or develop him more. His storyline seemed rushed.

Otherwise I liked everything they did with the story and their take. It touches upon a lot of issues, without making a fuss about them, and I like that about it. I liked how they chose to present it like a fairytale.

Some of sequences were really well done, especially the sleepwalk one and larger one in the mall.

Both the female leads were brilliant, and little boy did well with his part.

On a side note

As someone who is queasy around pregnant women, it was bad enough watching Ana doing aerobics, but the scene of birth was horrifying.


Thanks for the recommendation @Frightened Inmate No. 2

On another side note, Marjorie Estiano is so pretty. She looked like Linda Cardellini and Cristin Milioti's lovechild.

[SpelingError]

The next host is...

Takoma11
cricket
WrinkledMind

[SpelingError]

Nomination #25

90027

The Burden (2017, Niki Lindroth von Bahr)

Deadline to Watch It: November 30

Nominated By: Takoma11

[SpelingError]

Since this is a short film, I might be able to get to it today.

[SpelingError]

It's available on Kanopy and Criterion.

[Takoma11]

I thought a short film might be nice coming off of the holiday weekend.

I really love The Burden and have watched it many times. I'll write something up for it in a little bit after I give it a watch.

[cricket]

Is there dialogue in this? Wondering if I need subtitles.

[Miss Vicky]

Is there dialogue in this? Wondering if I need subtitles.

It's on YouTube with subtitles already there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Mmd26EN9g

[Allaby]

I just watched The Burden. This was interesting and creative. I really liked the animation and character design. Good nomination. 4

[Miss Vicky]

Well, I like the look of it anyway.

https://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/2010s/burden.gif

The Burden (Min börda) (Niki Lindroth von Bahr, 2017)

I'm really not sure how to rate or review this one because there's so little to it in terms of story. I do really love the overall look of the film and at only like 13 minutes I certainly never got bored, but I did find some of the characters a little creepy looking (especially the monkeys, but I find monkeys kind of creepy in general) and I struggled with the musical aspect of it. These issues of course are really my issues and not the film's, but they did hinder my enjoyment of it just the same.

3

[Takoma11]

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.traileraddict.com%2Fcontent%2Fscreencap%2F120432.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=af44f2254ada4fdf5a4c2bf3f214836d376abc681391a5b940849bc75784a602&ipo=images

The Burden, 2017

In a strange, dark metropolis, various animals sing out their inner emotions.

This movie is only 14 minutes long, yet I find it foreboding, funny, sad, touching, and I like the music.

I first watched this film when it was added to the Criterion Collection. It made me laugh in the first minute when a fish in a hotel sings the lines "Nobody wants to be with me/ I don't know why./ Or actually I do know why./ I have bad skin." Then moments later, "It wasn't anything anyone said, I just read between the lines and then I made up my mind."

I love everything about this film. I LOVE the craft of it. The tiny maps in the hotel, the newspaper the fish is holding. The little logos on the clothing. It is so meticulous and if you zoom your attention in on any corner of the screen, you are rewarded with some little detail.

I love that the film repeatedly takes us to the kind of places that just make you feel alone, especially after the sun has gone down: a hotel hallway, an empty cafeteria, a cubicle-laden workplace, a supermarket at night.

I do find it funny when you get musical numbers about mundane things, so the monkeys doing a big song and dance number about their telemarketing scam ("Interest free!") complete with spinning cubicles makes me laugh, especially as they chant their number one rule, "Say you're sorry, but never cancel the agreement."

At the heart of the silliness, though, is something kind of dark and sad. The camera pans between empty large parking lots, takes in the empty hotel hallway or grocery aisles. The sense of menace amps up in the grocery store sequence, as products fly off of the shelves and an ominous hole opens up in the floor.

The final song kind of gets me. "No sorrows, no troubles, when the burden is lifted from my shoulders." The song is given a gospel-like rhythm and upbeat pace, but it seems as if these depressed, isolated characters are just talking about dying, and the burden is just their everyday lives. Maybe that's a lot to read into some singing fish with synthesizer voices, but I find something very moving about a large group singing about their dreams and hopes yet not connecting with each other. As we pan out to see that they are in a bizarre, self-contained floating rock and those eerie horns take over the score, I kind of get shivers.

I think that short films are often overlooked when thinking about the best of a decade. (I nearly nominated It's Such a Beautiful Day which, at 62 minutes, just seems to fall onto the radar as a "feature film"). I always admire the economy of a good short film--what's that? I can watch it during the intermission of the hockey game?!-- and how well just a few minutes can be used to take me on an emotional journey.

I checked out several of Niki Lindroth von Bahr's shorts after watching this one. (I have yet to watch her segment of The House on Netflix because it keeps glitching out on me, but soon!). I quite like all of her stuff, with Bath House coming a close second to this one (and it has more of a straight-ahead narrative).

I have yet to even start to make my list, but The Burden will certainly be in consideration for me.

4.5

[gbgoodies]

The Burden (2017) is a weird short, but not necessarily in a bad way. It's very imaginative, and it held my attention, even with the creepiness of the animals singing about strange things. It won't make my list, but I'm glad I watched it.

[Chypmunk]

Gave this a watch as it was nice and short (and available), liked the animation and attention to background detail and found the music strangely enjoyable (kinda hypnotic at times). One little niggle I did have was that the supermarket shelf-stacker's mouth was never animated for that segment though. All-in-all something I'd have been unlikely to have discovered on my own and an interesting watch that certainly kept my attention but not something I'd be likely to place on my ballot even if I did include shorts.

[mistique]

Just saw The Burden - the visuals are both adorable, fun and slightly creepy. I love the shop with all the small boxes of food. Storywise I´m just left with a kind of meh feeling. It´s like being told a story, I already know. That we are all disconnected and waiting for the burden to end. A nice watch and I would love to see more with that same visual style.