MoFo Book Club - Jan. '22

[Blue]

All are eligible to nominate a title. We're a bit late with this process this time so please nominate and vote ASAP.

Nominations close on Jan. 3rd. Voting closes on the 6th.

My nomination: History

Empire of the Summer Moon: Quanah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Comanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History

https://www.amazon.com/Empire-Summer-Moon-Comanches-Powerful-ebook/dp/B003KN3MDG/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1640885032&sr=1-1

*Finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and the National Book Critics Circle Award*
*A New York Times Notable Book*
*Winner of the Texas Book Award and the Oklahoma Book Award*

This New York Times bestseller and stunning historical account of the forty-year battle between Comanche Indians and white settlers for control of the American West “is nothing short of a revelation…will leave dust and blood on your jeans” (The New York Times Book Review).

Empire of the Summer Moon spans two astonishing stories. The first traces the rise and fall of the Comanches, the most powerful Indian tribe in American history. The second entails one of the most remarkable narratives ever to come out of the Old West: the epic saga of the pioneer woman Cynthia Ann Parker and her mixed-blood son Quanah, who became the last and greatest chief of the Comanches.

[Takoma11]

Glad to see it's up and running!

My nomination:

Black Water Sister, Fantasy/horror/drama

https://www.amazon.com/Black-Water-Sister-Zen-Cho/dp/0425283437

When Jessamyn Teoh starts hearing a voice in her head, she chalks it up to stress. Closeted, broke and jobless, she’s moving back to Malaysia with her parents – a country she last saw when she was a toddler.

She soon learns the new voice isn’t even hers, it’s the ghost of her estranged grandmother. In life, Ah Ma was a spirit medium, avatar of a mysterious deity called the Black Water Sister. Now she’s determined to settle a score against a business magnate who has offended the god—and she's decided Jess is going to help her do it, whether Jess wants to or not.

Drawn into a world of gods, ghosts, and family secrets, Jess finds that making deals with capricious spirits is a dangerous business, but dealing with her grandmother is just as complicated. Especially when Ah Ma tries to spy on her personal life, threatens to spill her secrets to her family and uses her body to commit felonies. As Jess fights for retribution for Ah Ma, she’ll also need to regain control of her body and destiny – or the Black Water Sister may finish her off for good.

[Austruck]

Wow, Blue, Empire of the Summer Moon looks amazing.

I'd nominate Thunderstruck by Erik Larson. It's been on my TBR pile for a while now.

83948

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1400080673

In Thunderstruck, Erik Larson tells the interwoven stories of two men—Hawley Crippen, a very unlikely murderer, and Guglielmo Marconi, the obsessive creator of a seemingly supernatural means of communication—whose lives intersect during one of the greatest criminal chases of all time.

Set in Edwardian London and on the stormy coasts of Cornwall, Cape Cod, and Nova Scotia, Thunderstruck evokes the dynamism of those years when great shipping companies competed to build the biggest, fastest ocean liners; scientific advances dazzled the public with visions of a world transformed; and the rich outdid one another with ostentatious displays of wealth. Against this background, Marconi races against incredible odds and relentless skepticism to perfect his invention: the wireless, a prime catalyst for the emergence of the world we know today. Meanwhile, Crippen, “the kindest of men,” nearly commits the perfect murder.

With his unparalleled narrative skills, Erik Larson guides us through a relentlessly suspenseful chase over the waters of the North Atlantic. Along the way, he tells of a sad and tragic love affair that was described on the front pages of newspapers around the world, a chief inspector who found himself strangely sympathetic to the killer and his lover, and a driven and compelling inventor who transformed the way we communicate.

[Austruck]

I'd also be okay with either Hamnet by Maggie O'Farrell:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0525657606

83949

Or Cloud Cuckoo Land, by Anthony Doerr:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1982168439/

83950

[GulfportDoc]

83951

Dark City (published 7/20/21)


This is an expanded version of writer Eddie Muller's original book, with additional chapters and hundreds of new and enlarged sharp photos from the classic noir era. Muller covers not only the chief noir films from each studio, but discusses some of the more minor classics.


If you're a noir fan, this "bible" is a must-have.

[Blue]

Wow, Blue, Empire of the Summer Moon looks amazing.



Thanks. Everyone I know that's read it just raves about it. But then we live in what was once the heart of Comanche country. I know several people that have a family story about the Comanches.

For anyone not already familiar with the story of Cynthia Ann Parker I'll just say that it's terrifying, heartwarming and sad all wrapped together... and it's fact, not fiction. There are still people scattered throughout north and central TX that can claim Quanah was a distant uncle or cousin... imagine that. In 'Dances with Wolves' the character 'Stands with a Fist' was based on Cynthia Ann Parker.

[MovieMad16]

Thought I'd go classic for my nomination.

Bram Stoker's Dracula

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bram-Stokers-Dracula-Stoker-ebook/dp/B09PGNMTKM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2GHJEREU5O4LH&keywords=dracula+bram+stoker&qid=1641076494&s=digital-text&sprefix=Dracula%2Cdigital-text%2C196&sr=1-3

Dracula is a novel by Irish author Bram Stoker, published in 1897. As an epistolary novel, the narrative is related through letters, diary entries, and newspaper articles. It has no single protagonist, but opens with solicitor Jonathan Harker taking a business trip to stay at the castle of a Transylvanian noble, Count Dracula. Harker escapes the castle after discovering that Dracula is a vampire, and the Count moves to England and plagues the seaside town of Whitby. A small group, led by Abraham Van Helsing, hunt Dracula.

[Takoma11]

Thought I'd go classic for my nomination.

Bram Stoker's Dracula

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bram-Stokers-Dracula-Stoker-ebook/dp/B09PGNMTKM/ref=sr_1_3?crid=2GHJEREU5O4LH&keywords=dracula+bram+stoker&qid=1641076494&s=digital-text&sprefix=Dracula%2Cdigital-text%2C196&sr=1-3

Dracula is a novel by Irish author Bram Stoker, published in 1897. As an epistolary novel, the narrative is related through letters, diary entries, and newspaper articles. It has no single protagonist, but opens with solicitor Jonathan Harker taking a business trip to stay at the castle of a Transylvanian noble, Count Dracula. Harker escapes the castle after discovering that Dracula is a vampire, and the Count moves to England and plagues the seaside town of Whitby. A small group, led by Abraham Van Helsing, hunt Dracula.

I just read Dracula last year and really enjoyed it. Not a knock at all: I think I would gladly read it again if it wins the vote.

[MovieMad16]

To be honest, I'm liking the sound of your nomination judging by the blurb. Swap votes? :P

[Takoma11]

To be honest, I'm liking the sound of your nomination judging by the blurb. Swap votes? :P

LOL.

I've also read Dark City, but it's admittedly been long enough that I wouldn't mind revisiting it.

[Blue]

Just a reminder that nominations will close later today.

[Sedai]

Project Hail Mary - Andy Weir

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zHF8ESlHL._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_FMwebp_.jpg

Newer book by the author of The Martian.

[Yoda]

Project Hail Mary - Andy Weir

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zHF8ESlHL._SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_FMwebp_.jpg

Newer book by the author of The Martian.
Read this a little while back, really enjoyed it. Obviously it's kind of just The Martian again with some fun twists and turns: similar enough that you end up scratching the same itches that book did, but different enough to be worthwhile and surprising.

It really reads like a movie, no surprise, and no surprise it's already being turned into one. I hope they do a good job, because if they do, there's some stuff in there that could be very funny (and occasionally very sweet) on the big screen.

[Sedai]

Read this a little while back, really enjoyed it. Obviously it's kind of just The Martian again with some fun twists and turns: similar enough that you end up scratching the same itches that book did, but different enough to be worthwhile and surprising.

It really reads like a movie, no surprise, and no surprise it's already being turned into one. I hope they do a good job, because if they do, there's some stuff in there that could be very funny (and occasionally very sweet) on the big screen.

I've seen The Martian a couple of times, but admittedly never read the book. I got Project Hail Mary as a gift, so thought I would toss it in the mix before I read.

[Austruck]

So, Blue, a friend of mine posted his top 25 books read in 2021 yesterday. On his list was Empire of the Summer Moon: Quanah Parker and the Rise and Fall of the Comanches, the Most Powerful Indian Tribe in American History. :)

I'd never heard of this book before last week, and now it's been mentioned/recommended twice. I'm more inclined to vote for this now, although, of course, choosing any of my own suggestions would come first. :)

[Austruck]

I've seen The Martian a couple of times, but admittedly never read the book. I got Project Hail Mary as a gift, so thought I would toss it in the mix before I read.

I've never seen the movie precisely because I found the book cheap at a used bookstore and decided I should probably read the book before I see the movie. :D Still haven't done either one.

[Blue]

Let's talk about voting and how we want to do it. I may be overthinking this...... sorry.

We can vote openly here in this thread or everyone can PM me their vote. Once voting is closed your vote will become public as I will post them.

Thoughts?

P.S. Nominations will close in a few hours....

[Takoma11]

Let's talk about voting and how we want to do it. I may be overthinking this...... sorry.

We can vote openly here in this thread or everyone can PM me their vote. Once voting is closed your vote will become public as I will post them.

Thoughts?

P.S. Nominations will close in a few hours....

Can I suggest the (admittedly a bit more complicated) system of voting by ranking the nominations? That way it's more likely that we'll read a book that is closer to consensus. Everyone would PM you a list of the nominees ranked, with their top pick earning 5 points, their second pick earning 4, and so on. That way it's more likely we read something that is a top 3 pick from everyone.

[Sedai]

Can I suggest the (admittedly a bit more complicated) system of voting by ranking the nominations? That way it's more likely that we'll read a book that is closer to consensus. Everyone would PM you a list of the nominees ranked, with their top pick earning 5 points, their second pick earning 4, and so on. That way it's more likely we read something that is a top 3 pick from everyone.

I second this method!

[Blue]

Can I suggest the (admittedly a bit more complicated) system of voting by ranking the nominations? That way it's more likely that we'll read a book that is closer to consensus. Everyone would PM you a list of the nominees ranked, with their top pick earning 5 points, their second pick earning 4, and so on. That way it's more likely we read something that is a top 3 pick from everyone.

I'm fine with this. I wonder though if it gives an unfair advantage to those that nominated more than one book.

Not picking on Austruck, just concerned.

[Austruck]

I'm fine with this. I wonder though if it gives an unfair advantage to those that nominated more than one book.

Not picking on Austruck, just concerned.

I like this idea, and I'm happy to whittle my suggestions down to just one if that helps. I'd probably choose Cloud Cuckoo Land if I were allowed only one. :)

[Blue]

I like this idea, and I'm happy to whittle my suggestions down to just one if that helps. I'd probably choose Cloud Cuckoo Land if I were allowed only one. :)

Thanks. I think that would be for the best.

I'd like to limit the ranking to top 5 choices regardless how many nominations there are.

[Takoma11]

Thanks. I think that would be for the best.

I'd like to limit the ranking to top 5 choices regardless how many nominations there are.

So everyone can just send you their top 5 out of:

Empire of the Summer Moon
Cloud Cuckoo Land
Dracula
Dark City
Black Water Sister
Project Hail Mary

[Blue]

So everyone can just send you their top 5 out of:

Empire of the Summer Moon
Cloud Cuckoo Land
Dracula
Dark City
Black Water Sister
Project Hail Mary

Yes. So this month one book will be left off everyone's ranking.

Nominations are closed!

Voting will open as soon as we finalize the process.

[Blue]

Ok, so voting is now open. For this month we will use the following format:

PM me your top 5 choices ranked in order of preference. I will track the choices and once voting has closed I will reveal everyone's choices and announce the winner. We can always amend this process for next month if needed.

[Sedai]

Nominations sent!

[Blue]

Voting will close in ~ 24 hrs.

[Sedai]

Bump - Everyone have their ballot sent?

[Yoda]

Sent. I am currently unsure of my availability to participate, but I might as well vote in case I can.

[Sedai]

I finished my non-fiction book and will finish my fiction book either today or tomorrow.

Ready for something new!

[Yoda]

I'm not sure if disclosing my choices is okay (I assume so?), but I voted for one above the others because I've already read it and will therefore be able to guarantee my involvement in discussion if it wins. :laugh:

[TheUsualSuspect]

Project Hail Mary is a lot of fun and has one of the best sidekick characters I've read in awhile.

[TheUsualSuspect]

I'm not going to vote, but I will read along with everyone.

[Blue]

Surprisingly, the winner is: Empire of the Summer Moon.

I'll post the votes below. Please check to see that your votes were properly recorded and check my math.

https://i.postimg.cc/TwK3TdS7/Screen-Shot-2022-01-06-at-1-42-22-PM.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

[Austruck]

I'm excited to read this. I'm gonna go grab a copy now! The other friend who ranked it as one of his top books of 2021 is someone whose book tastes I respect and admire.

[Austruck]

Bought my copy. Decided that paperback at about $13 was better than the Kindle edition at nearly that much anyway. Arrives Saturday and I'll start right in then. :)

[Sedai]

Excellent. Ordering my copy of Summer Moon now!

I kind of figured my book wouldn't win, what with a couple people already having read it, and I was hoping Summer Moon would win if mine didn't.

Huzzah!

EDIT: Book will arrive Sunday, at which point I will dig in.

[Takoma11]

I saw which way the wind was blowing and checked Empire of the Summer Moon out from the library on Monday.

What is the format for this club? Is it to give a few thoughts about each chapter or every 50 pages or so?

Do we have discussion questions we want to consider?

Or just more of an open discussion?

[Blue]

Got my kindle version earlier today and have started reading. I was hooked 10 pages in!

A friend of mine who loves this book suggested that I recommend getting a map of TX to anyone not familiar with the state. She says it will help to see where the action took place and visualize the size of the Comanche territory. I'm sure there's something online.

[Blue]

I saw which way the wind was blowing and checked Empire of the Summer Moon out from the library on Monday.

What is the format for this club? Is it to give a few thoughts about each chapter or every 50 pages or so?

Do we have discussion questions we want to consider?

Or just more of an open discussion?

Great questions. I don't know.

What do y'all think?

[Austruck]

No opinion on the style of the discussion but I'm guessing this group might do well with something very free-form/open. My two cents and gut feeling on that.

Started Empire of the Summer Moon today. Read chapter 1. Do we have target dates for reading/finishing the book?

[Blue]

No opinion on the style of the discussion but I'm guessing this group might do well with something very free-form/open. My two cents and gut feeling on that.
I tend to agree.

Started Empire of the Summer Moon today. Read chapter 1. Do we have target dates for reading/finishing the book?

I don't really want to impose target dates. I'd say finish the book in time to discuss before it's time to read the next one. :shrug:

[Takoma11]

Impressions from the first three chapters:

I am enjoying the book so far. My favorite part is undoubtedly the account of the way that the introduction of horses so dramatically changed the power dynamics between the tribes and between the tribes and the European invaders. The author makes a really interesting point about how the image of the American Indian riding/attacking on horseback is so ingrained into pop culture, and yet most tribes got around on foot. And of the tribes that did use horses, only a scant few actually fought on horseback.

I am a little bit put off by the way that the author is sometimes careless with his language in a way that comes across as a bit, I don't know, biased might be too strong a word. But he talks about how the northern tribeland was so far from "civilization," as if the Native tribes don't count as civilizations. What he means is that they are far from land that has been decisively settled by Americans. He also uses descriptions of the Native groups in an offhand way that I don't always love, like referring to the Comanches as "dark-skinned" apropos of nothing, or referring to the Tonkawa Indians as "occassional cannibals", again apropos of nothing (and not giving the important context that (1) their cannibalism was rumored but never proven and (2) it refers to ritual cannibalism of a killed enemy).

I do appreciate that he is careful to differentiate between the tribes and explain their relationships with each other. Something that is really common is for people to refer to "Native Americans" as if they are one united people, as opposed to being more like a group of nations with distinct cultures, traits, and traditions.

The account of the attack on the Parkers is pretty harrowing.

[Blue]

Impressions from the first three chapters:

I am enjoying the book so far. My favorite part is undoubtedly the account of the way that the introduction of horses so dramatically changed the power dynamics between the tribes and between the tribes and the European invaders. The author makes a really interesting point about how the image of the American Indian riding/attacking on horseback is so ingrained into pop culture, and yet most tribes got around on foot. And of the tribes that did use horses, only a scant few actually fought on horseback.

I completely agree on this. The introduction of the Mustang by the Spanish, and the fact that they are perfectly suited to live in the American Southwest is fortunate to say the least.
The horsemanship of the Comanche's is amazing. Especially considering that many eastern tribes had never ridden a horse.



I am a little bit put off by the way that the author is sometimes careless with his language in a way that comes across as a bit, I don't know, biased might be too strong a word. But he talks about how the northern tribeland was so far from "civilization," as if the Native tribes don't count as civilizations. What he means is that they are far from land that has been decisively settled by Americans. He also uses descriptions of the Native groups in an offhand way that I don't always love, like referring to the Comanches as "dark-skinned" apropos of nothing, or referring to the Tonkawa Indians as "occassional cannibals", again apropos of nothing (and not giving the important context that (1) their cannibalism was rumored but never proven and (2) it refers to ritual cannibalism of a killed enemy).

Again, I agree. I will say that when you read further you will see the author eviscerate the Federal Government for their absolute inability to deal with, and total lack of understanding of the Comanche.


I do appreciate that he is careful to differentiate between the tribes and explain their relationships with each other. Something that is really common is for people to refer to "Native Americans" as if they are one united people, as opposed to being more like a group of nations with distinct cultures, traits, and traditions.

I agree completely. And I was surprised that the U.S. didn't understand that there was no 'central authority' among the tribes.


The account of the attack on the Parkers is pretty harrowing.

Indeed! Wait until you read of Martha Sherman.

[Takoma11]

Again, I agree. I will say that when you read further you will see the author eviscerate the Federal Government for their absolute inability to deal with, and total lack of understanding of the Comanche.

He is certainly critical of Americans--like how baffled he is that the Parkers just thought they could waltz deep into mostly unprotected territory and live their lives--but those criticisms seem to be more pointed at individuals or select groups. His references to the different Indian groups are more blanketed, and he sometimes seems to fall into the trap of wanting to make them seem more exotic (like the mention of cannibalism). We've heard about Indians raping white women and also about them taking white children, but not about the reverse. I mean, heck, Andrew Jackson adopted a boy whose family he helped slaughter.

[Blue]

He is certainly critical of Americans--like how baffled he is that the Parkers just thought they could waltz deep into mostly unprotected territory and live their lives--but those criticisms seem to be more pointed at individuals or select groups.

Keep reading.

His references to the different Indian groups are more blanketed, and he sometimes seems to fall into the trap of wanting to make them seem more exotic (like the mention of cannibalism).

The charge of cannibalism was only directed at one tribe, IIRC. And based on my reading, the Comanche's would rape any woman, not just white.


We've heard about Indians raping white women and also about them taking white children, but not about the reverse. I mean, heck, Andrew Jackson adopted a boy whose family he helped slaughter.

Again, keep reading. While it was not common for whites to take children, there are many accounts of whites caring for orphan natives.

I'm not making a moral judgment here. The Comanche's saw no issue with the way they treated prisoners and we saw no issue with removing them from their land.

There's not really a 'good guy' and a 'bad guy' here imo. It's a clash of different cultures.

[Takoma11]

The charge of cannibalism was only directed at one tribe, IIRC.

It was--the Tonkawa--but he mentions it in a context where it is completely irrelevant.

While it was not common for whites to take children, there are many accounts of whites caring for orphan natives.

I mean, the "orphan natives" were orphans because their parents had been killed by the people who were now caring for them. I don't think it's all that different.

Here is an example of what I think is some cognitive dissonance: "In the moral universe of the West . . . a person who tortures or rapes another person or who steals another person's child and then sells him cannot possibly be seen [as heroic or noble]."

And yet those descriptors, which Gwynne is applying to the Comanche, easily apply to anyone who engaged in the slave trade, including plenty of Americans thought of as heroic or noble.

I agree that morals are culturally relative. I'm just finding it interesting that many aspects of the Comanche lifestyle that are considered "savage" are not that far removed from behaviors of Europeans/Americans.

[Sedai]

With a book of this nature, this may prove impossible, but I hope to avoid falling into too much back and forth on concepts such as moral high ground or what actually constitutes savagery etc. That said, here are my two cents! ;)

I think a case can be made for most/all of the factions involved being both victims and aggressors at various times throughout history, but I did get the idea that some of the tribes that tended to be a bit more on the peaceful side got the sharp end of the stick far more than they gave it to others, both from the settlers and the more aggressive and warlike tribes. Personally, I will try to keep in mind how difficult it can be to keep perspective on the times, without my opinion being colored by the cultural norms and politics of current day.

I do try to imagine what would have happened if colonials had showed up at a later date: would the Comanche have wiped out most of the other tribes, decimating or assimilating the less warlike tribes, or as the opening chapters infers, would they have been satisfied with only taking over part of the land mass, leaving the rest to live in relative peace? What tribes were wiped out before our history of the continent begins, what tribal civilizations were lost before the events of of the colonial landings? I presume there is at least some partial record kept on the subject, and I would be curious to check that out at some point.

Anyway, I am about 3 chapters in so far. Good stuff!

[Blue]

I think a case can be made for most/all of the factions involved being both victims and aggressors at various times throughout history, but I did get the idea that some of the tribes that tended to be a bit more on the peaceful side got the sharp end of the stick far more than they gave it to others, both from the settlers and the more aggressive and warlike tribes.

Well said. I think history shows us that the more agrarian tribes, mostly from the east but some from the southwest, did get the short end of the stick from both sides.

What struck me was the lack of a 'central' or true leader among many of the tribes. A concept unknown to the Army and the Federal gov. They couldn't get their head around the fact that a treaty with one band of Comanche's was not binding on all Comanche's. It's easy to see how this would lead to mistrust and retribution when the real issue was a simple misunderstanding and/or lack of knowledge about the Comanche hierarchy. This lack of knowledge was only compounded by the Comanche's brutal treatment of prisoners.

[Sedai]

It's easy to see how this would lead to mistrust and retribution when the real issue was a simple misunderstanding and/or lack of knowledge about the Comanche hierarchy. This lack of knowledge was only compounded by the Comanche's brutal treatment of prisoners.

Indeed. Pair this with the tribe...I want to say it was the Tonkawa, that at that point had a massive vendetta against the Comanche, which led them to volunteer as scouts and guides in the hunt for the Comanche - I am sure this colored the viewpoint of the federal forces and leadership at the time.

It's a tough issue, and while an argument can be made that the settlers, especially those on the extreme fringe, were in a way victims of so-called savagery, there is also a clear argument seeing them as the vanguard of a coming invasion, which incensed the Comanche, sending them into a blood rage. At no point will I defend the Comanche methods, which were clearly savage, but at the same time, the settlers weren't blameless in the situation. As I inferred before, these were brutal times all around. Glad I am alive now, and not then!

[MovieMad16]

Little behind on this but I've just started and finished the first chapter.

So far so good. Got a good idea of the savagery of the setting, as well as no holds barred guerilla warfare that was going on between the two sides.

The final image of the first chapter was great. So blunt but perfectly sets up just how terrifying the chief can be when in battle.

[Sedai]

I did not need to read the events of chapter 4 while I was eating breakfast this morning! Holy crap...


Oh, and the book answered my question about the Comanche I asked yesterday. They didn't transform into the warlike juggernaut the became until horses were introduced my the Spanish.

[Blue]

I did not need to read the events of chapter 4 while I was eating breakfast this morning! Holy crap...

Martha Sherman?


Oh, and the book answered my question about the Comanche I asked yesterday. They didn't transform into the warlike juggernaut the became until horses were introduced my the Spanish.

Yes, and by the time Americans came along they had had over 300 years of practice to perfect their craft.

[Blue]

When the end comes for the Comanche's it comes much faster than I imagined. My take is there were 3 primary factors that aligned and signaled the end.

1. Civil War - The advances in weapon technology, specifically the Henry and the Spencer repeating rifle along with revolvers that could be reloaded very quickly and easily in the field gave a huge advantage to those that had them... us.

2. The Buffalo Hunters - The speed with which they were able to decimate herds that had numbered in the millions is almost unimaginable. This had dire consequences for the Comanche's. I think many people believe, I did, that this was a tactic used by the Army to intentionally starve the Comanche. Turns out it wasn't initially, it was simple market forces. When a Buffalo hide could bring $3.50, and they were very easy to kill with a high-powered rifle, everyone wanted some of the easy money. It was only later that the Army became aware of the effect this was having on the Comanche.

3. Political will in D.C. - For a while after the Civil War, U.S. Grant as POTUS, tried to find and maintain peace with the Comanche's. When he had had enough and was convinced that it wouldn't work he sent in Sherman, Sheridan and McKenzie. All battle hardened and excellent leaders. Prior to this there wasn't any political will to subdue the Comanche's.

[Blue]

You can listen to a short (24 min.) interview with the author here:

https://www.npr.org/2011/05/20/136438816/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-comanche-empire

In the Kindle ver. there are 'book club' questions at the end. I found the following one to be interesting.

(paraphrasing)

Had the Comanche's not been able to stop the Spanish from moving northward out of Mexico and the French from moving westward out of Louisiana, would America be different today?

[Austruck]

I did not need to read the events of chapter 4 while I was eating breakfast this morning! Holy crap...


Oh, and the book answered my question about the Comanche I asked yesterday. They didn't transform into the warlike juggernaut the became until horses were introduced my the Spanish.

Okay, I'm starting to think we should set down some sort of deadline(s) about when to finish either the whole book or at least certain sections/chapters. I'm starting chapter 3 today and am now avoiding coming into this thread because people ahead of me are posting things that feel a tad bit spoilerish. :D Guess I should read faster!

[Blue]

Okay, I'm starting to think we should set down some sort of deadline(s) about when to finish either the whole book or at least certain sections/chapters. I'm starting chapter 3 today and am now avoiding coming into this thread because people ahead of me are posting things that feel a tad bit spoilerish. :D Guess I should read faster!

Perhaps that would be best after all.

I'm just not sure what the best way to do it would be.

Suggestions?

[Sedai]

Whoops! My bad!

Sorry Au!

[Takoma11]

It's a 320 page book (not counting notes).

Maybe set a pace of being on page 100 by the end of this week (~the 14th), page 200 by the 21st, and finished by the end of the month?

Is that too fast a clip for some people? It works out to about a chapter a day (the chapters seem to mostly be ~15 pages).

[Austruck]

It's a 320 page book (not counting notes).

Maybe set a pace of being on page 100 by the end of this week (~the 14th), page 200 by the 21st, and finished by the end of the month?

Is that too fast a clip for some people? It works out to about a chapter a day (the chapters seem to mostly be ~15 pages).

I can definitely work with that. :)

[Takoma11]

I am done through chapter 5. Maybe until the weekend we can spoiler text anything that might be considered giving away key "plot points"?

[Austruck]

I did not need to read the events of chapter 4 while I was eating breakfast this morning! Holy crap...

84369

[Sedai]

Done through 100.

Really good so far. I am fascinated by this era, and this is a pretty visceral account, so it hits extra hard. Looking forward to the rest of the book!

[Austruck]

Done through 100.

Really good so far. I am fascinated by this era, and this is a pretty visceral account, so it hits extra hard. Looking forward to the rest of the book!

I'm in chapter five and hoping to make more headway today. Been a weird day since we got a foot of snow overnight. Always throws off the ol' schedule. :D

[Sedai]

I snapped up another chapter this morning, then headed out into the snow and ice to trudge to work.

[Blue]

I'm in chapter five and hoping to make more headway today. Been a weird day since we got a foot of snow overnight. Always throws off the ol' schedule. :D

I was beginning to wonder about everyone. :D

Hope you're enjoying it so far....

[Austruck]

I am definitely enjoying it. I'm up near page 100 now (in the print paperback edition) and hope to cross that line this afternoon after I kinda-sorta look like I got some desk work done first. :D

[Austruck]

Well, "enjoying" in the sense of it being compelling reading. NOT enjoying it in the sense of it being FUN reading. :D

[Sedai]

Coming up on the halfway point, and am definitely enjoying the book. I also plan on watching The Searchers after I am done reading.

[Takoma11]

Work has been a stress pit these last two weeks, so I'm a little behind.

But right now my not-so-original hot take is that James Parker was a real piece of work!

[Austruck]

I'm also behind, and I'm hip-deep in chapter 10 (page 138 of the paperback).

[Sedai]

Cruising along. I think I am up to about page 215, also in the paperback.

[Austruck]

I put this down for nearly a week but have picked it back up. :) Not quite halfway but getting there.

[Sedai]

Finished it up yesterday!

Really good - glad it was the winning book this round. Don't want to spoil for those that are still reading, but have some comments in store...

[MovieMad16]

Still quite far behind on this one. Might have to miss the next selection of this.

Not bad so far. I think the emotional aspect and depicting the brutality is great. It's an interesting and honest history lesson for this part of the states.

I'm going to try and power through with this over the week and see if I can get some progress.

[Sedai]

Let's gooooooooooooooooooo

I am already 2/3 through my next book! ;)

[Austruck]

I'm not quite 3/4 of the way done. Had a big project I had to do, which halted any outside reading for a few days. Will be back at this book later today and into tomorrow!

Seds, you need a few more toddlers in your house to slow you down. :D I have NO kids in my house and no loose pets and I still struggle to find time to read as much as I'd like. :D :D

[Sedai]

I'm not quite 3/4 of the way done. Had a big project I had to do, which halted any outside reading for a few days. Will be back at this book later today and into tomorrow!

Seds, you need a few more toddlers in your house to slow you down. :D I have NO kids in my house and no loose pets and I still struggle to find time to read as much as I'd like. :D :D

Each day when I wake up, I get Stelly's breakfast ready, make some coffee, and get a couple of chapters in while she eats and dorks around.

[Takoma11]

I'm about 2/3 done. I am enjoying it intellectually, but work has been emotionally intense and a lot of days I don't want to come home and read about a horrific/sadistic gang rape, which feels like it's about every 15 pages or so, LOL.

[Austruck]

Each day when I wake up, I get Stelly's breakfast ready, make some coffee, and get a couple of chapters in while she eats and dorks around.

Aha! So what I need is someone in this house who dorks around! Rats, all those people grew up and moved out. :D

[Takoma11]

Okay, I am done and ready to discuss!

[Austruck]

I'm getting there! Should be finished by sometime this weekend! :)

[MovieMad16]

God I'm far behind. Might have to skip a month to catch up. Feel free to go on without me. It's only now starting to get interesting for me.

[Takoma11]

I think that ultimately the most interesting aspect of the story to me was the sheer volume of interests at play at any given time: military, private citizens pushing west, the Comanche, the other tribes, the politicians, etc.

Content-wise, this book was a bit challenging for me. A bit too much torture, sexual violence, and animal cruelty. It was a fascinating story, but it was hard to want to pick it up when you don't know if the next chapter is going to have hundreds of horses being sloppily executed with pistols or a man cutting a woman's vulva off her dead body and parading it around on a stick. I understand the importance of some of these details in terms of understanding the brutality of the encounters and the nature of the war strategies, but it started to feel almost repetitive at a certain point.

I wish that there had been more about the cultural struggles of those who returned from captivity and the way that they were perceived by the society around them. I thought there was a perceptive point about the idea that, for example, Cynthia Ann was considered an "other", and that part of the evidence of this was the willingness to view and share the image of her with an exposed breast. I think that the experience of the returned captives provides an interesting counter-point to the end of the story where we learn about Quanah adapting to an American lifestyle.

While I know that this is not something in the control of the author, I think it's a shame that there's such sparse primary source content from the different indigenous groups. So much of it is filtered through written down speeches, and a good amount of it comes from the perspectives of white captives.

A good read, but I'm definitely ready for something a bit lighter and with at least 97% fewer scenes of corpse mutilation.

[Austruck]

I've got about 80 pages left and at this point I'm surprised at how little we've heard about Quanah. He's on the cover, the section of photos in the middle of the book has a lot of pictures of him, but here we are 3/4 of the way through the text with barely anything about him specifically.

So, on I go, hoping to finish by the weekend... and hoping to learn more about Quanah.

[Takoma11]

I've got about 80 pages left and at this point I'm surprised at how little we've heard about Quanah. He's on the cover, the section of photos in the middle of the book has a lot of pictures of him, but here we are 3/4 of the way through the text with barely anything about him specifically.

So, on I go, hoping to finish by the weekend... and hoping to learn more about Quanah.

Yes, I was also surprised that he's not really the focus until the last 50 or so pages.

It's like someone saying they want to tell you about their trip to Disneyland . . . then talking for an hour about the history of the park before finally spending 5 minutes on their own trip there.

Though I'm sure that from the author's point of view this was all very necessary foundation to lay down.

[Austruck]

Yes, I was also surprised that he's not really the focus until the last 50 or so pages.

It's like someone saying they want to tell you about their trip to Disneyland . . . then talking for an hour about the history of the park before finally spending 5 minutes on their own trip there.

Though I'm sure that from the author's point of view this was all very necessary foundation to lay down.

It makes for a very different feel to the book. With a picture of one man on the cover, and that subtitle, I expected more about his life, his thinking, his perspective. This reads more like a history book with overarching themes and big-picture events. STILL very interesting stuff that I had no background knowing, so it was completely worthwhile, but just wasn't what I was expecting.

So far the most fascinating parts involved Cynthia Ann Parker--her capture and her return, and her reactions to all of those things that happened to her. The psychology behind it all was fascinating, so I had hoped for more like that.

ANYWAY, we'll see how I feel once I get through this last big part of the book...

[Takoma11]

It makes for a very different feel to the book. With a picture of one man on the cover, and that subtitle, I expected more about his life, his thinking, his perspective. This reads more like a history book with overarching themes and big-picture events. STILL very interesting stuff that I had no background knowing, so it was completely worthwhile, but just wasn't what I was expecting.

Yeah, I think that the challenge is just the lack of depth of resources. Very little can be pulled on from his early life except for general understanding of where he lived and what his experiences may have been like. And then his integration into American society actually sounds relatively uneventful.

So far the most fascinating parts involved Cynthia Ann Parker--her capture and her return, and her reactions to all of those things that happened to her. The psychology behind it all was fascinating, so I had hoped for more like that.

Totally agreed. And I thought it was absolutely heartbreaking when you learn that her daughter died and then she basically slowly starved herself to death.

There were people who were victimized by the Comanche and people who were victimized by the American military/society, and Cynthia Ann is in the very small group that really got hammered by both.

[Austruck]

Agreed on all points. And yes, we can never know enough about anything involving Native American tribes because clearly they weren't going to be writing down histories or keeping diaries. So sad that so much of that history will never be remembered.

[Sedai]

I found this book to be a fairly comprehensive examination of the info it wanted to cover, but I also thought the coverage on Quanah was a bit lighter than I thought I would get when I started reading. I enjoyed the book, and found it to be somewhat compelling in places, but in others, it read a bit like a textbook, so I had to push through it.

By the end, I had gained what I felt to be a good amount of knowledge of the way life was at the time for both the settlers and the natives, and had a general feeling of melancholy when considering I was reading about the end of an era of true freedom, even if it contained horrible events and unbridled savagery from all involved.

This was also yet another example of how technology can suddenly, radically, and rapidly change the face of the world.


Meanwhile, I have finished the next book i was reading, which was the first volume of The Witcher series of books.

Wondering about the timing on the next book for the club...

Blue

[Austruck]

Your thoughts somewhat reflect mine, Sedai. I think it was almost a bait-and-switch to put only a picture of Quanah on the cover, with that subtitle, and then have his story relegated to the last 40 or 50 pages. I realize there just isn't much we know for sure about him and his life (especially his earlier life), but the quick turnaround from warring Comanche chief to savvy businessman in the white man's world was a bit jarring, almost to the point of unbelievability. Clearly there was so much about this man's thought processes that we will never know or understand. And given the subtitle of the book, I don't think Gwynne had enough information to lead us to think we were going to get that background.

I'm not sure I'd define freedom the way you do, though. As a Christian, I can't ever say freedom includes the right to practice such horrible acts on other people, merely because it is your people's way of doing things. But the rest of the definition rings very true. The way the white man trampled his way from East to West in those days is enough to make you sick. I'm surprised that so many white settlers pushed forward as stupidly as they continued to do, even once they were aware of the dangers and risks.

I didn't mind the textbook feel of certain parts, though, because I knew so little going into this book. I'd read (and proofread) one other book that crosses paths with some of this history, The White Chief of Cache Creek, written by Faith Martin, a woman I know personally. It's part of a Missions series from my denominational publisher, and it includes a lot of minute detail from original sources from missionaries in that area. It has its moments of sounding like the White Man Savior syndrome, but since I maintain the gospel goes out to all nations and colors throughout the ages (and that Jesus wasn't white, duh), I perhaps have less problem with those parts than some others here might have. At the very least, I appreciate it as a history of part of my denomination's efforts at spreading the gospel.

So, for me, getting so much of the history of the Comanches was a real eye opener. Very glad I read this. But also ready to move on. :)

[Sedai]

Fair point about freedom Austruck.

I think what I mean when I say that here, is it was the end of an era for many people and tribes that had experienced life in a very unrestrained way, with all the unfettered wildness as well as the clearly horrible detrimental effects of a society in which there are very few, if any, rules and laws. A good argument against anarchy, eh? ;)

I wouldn't want to have lived back then, that's for sure. I am one of these weirdos that think the best time to live in history is right here, right now...but with perhaps a bit less government overreach... ;)

[Austruck]

Fair point about freedom Austruck.

I think what I mean when I say that here, is it was the end of an era for many people and tribes that had experienced life in a very unrestrained way, with all the unfettered wildness as well as the clearly horrible detrimental effects of a society in which there are very few, if any, rules and laws. A good argument against anarchy, eh? ;)

I wouldn't want to have lived back then, that's for sure. I am one of these weirdos that think the best time to live in history is right here, right now...but with perhaps a bit less government overreach... ;)

Definitely agreed on the government overreach stuff, but yes, I too am glad I live now and not then (or any other times, really). I'm old enough to have lived into adulthood pre-internet, and frankly, I wouldn't be able to freelance like I do without this computer and the internet. And I wouldn't know any of you mopes, either! :)

Your amended definition works well. All the things that happened to Native Americans as a whole are just awful to read about. How could any of them have seen it coming, right? Just ugly ugly stuff, all around.

As for the book, there were spots toward the end where I chuckled at some of the stunts Quanah pulled once he was part of white society. He really caught on fast, and that's a lot of his charm, I suppose.

[Takoma11]

the quick turnaround from warring Comanche chief to savvy businessman in the white man's world was a bit jarring, almost to the point of unbelievability. Clearly there was so much about this man's thought processes that we will never know or understand.

Right. It all comes back to the fundamental problem of just how much of the history was written by white people and not the indiginous people, coupled with the fact that many of the people doing the writing either had their own "angle" or were simply ignorant as to what they were writing about.

Then there's just the fact that even someone trying to report things accurately still has the barrier of cultural divide. I'm sure there are things that Quanah would say to another Comanche that he might not say to a white person.

Like you say, there is just so much that can never be known!

[Blue]

Listen to the author discuss the book with Joe Rogan....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMWPP-vXzhQ

Sedai

I will post a nomination thread for March in a few days


It all comes back to the fundamental problem of just how much of the history was written by white people and not the indiginous people

This is a bit much imo. The plains Indians had no written language, so where could 'white people' go to get the facts about the plains Indians other than from their own experiences?

All plains Indians did the same thing.

This is not a case of 'white people' rewriting history.

[Takoma11]

This is a bit much imo. The plains Indians had no written language, so where could 'white people' go to get the facts about the plains Indians other than from their own experiences?

All plains Indians did the same thing.

This is not a case of 'white people' rewriting history.

I didn't say that white people "rewrote" history. I said that "much of the history was written by white people". Which it was. And that's relevant when we're talking about the lack of insight into the perspective of the Comanche or the other tribes.

As I've said before, it's not the author's fault that primary texts written by Comanche people don't exist. But it fundamentally creates an imbalance in the presentation of information.

[Blue]

I didn't say that white people "rewrote" history. I said that "much of the history was written by white people". Which it was. And that's relevant when we're talking about the lack of insight into the perspective of the Comanche or the other tribes.

It was written by white people because the Comanche didn't write... that's my only point.

As I've said before, it's not the author's fault that primary texts written by Comanche people don't exist. But it fundamentally creates an imbalance in the presentation of information.

That's fair.

[Blue]

March nomination thread is up:

https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=65733

[MovieMad16]

Finally finished it!!!!

Will do a larger review later, but it was quite the read. A real struggle to begin with to get into, but about mid way through, it got better and the story more fascinating and intriguing to follow.

[Blue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MkJtsahaEk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXwmCnPPozA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRXXvm-zKTY

[Blue]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNlXgVPDSkE