View Full Version : Who Will be Our Next President?
Stirchley
10-30-20, 03:01 PM
Let’s call the election!
This is just a bit of fun. Let’s all be civil & no hysteria please if others have a different prediction than yours. :p
I call it for DONALD TRUMP
John Dumbear
10-30-20, 03:05 PM
Trump, by default. A country with 320 mil, these are the best two a-holes out there?
Stirchley
10-30-20, 03:07 PM
Btw, anyone can post in this thread. You don’t have to be American. :)
Citizen Rules
10-30-20, 03:08 PM
My prediction is:
...this thread will get locked.
Miss Vicky
10-30-20, 03:10 PM
I'm hoping it's not going to be Trump, but I'm also terrified that it will be Trump.
Stirchley
10-30-20, 03:12 PM
My prediction is:
...this thread will get locked.
I’m prepared for this. It’s why I asked for civility in the OP.
Won’t you give us your election prediction?
I'm hoping it's not going to be Trump, but I'm also terrified that it will be Trump.
Ditto.
Citizen Rules
10-30-20, 03:18 PM
I’m prepared for this. It’s why I asked for civility in the OP.
Won’t you give us your election prediction?I've not seen any political discussion remain civil for long. I know you can be civil but someone will come along and throw gas on the fire, which will then start a chain reaction, you'll see.
My predictions? If anyone has read any of my post on the more topical threads then they should know who I hope will win, but as far as predictions, I don't want to make one.
Out of the two candidates, I hope Trump will win. I also think he's a slight favorite.
Also, so much this...
Trump, by default. A country with 320 mil, these are the best two a-holes out there?
Trump, by default. A country with 320 mil, these are the best two a-holes out there?
This!
Once again we find ourselves with a couple of pretty rough choices. That said, out of the two, I think Trump is much more equipped to handle the position at this point in time. Biden is a shade of what he once was, and I see clear signs of cognitive decline. In fact, I don't think the Democrat's plan is to keep Biden in place at all. Pelosi's push to form the committee that will analyze the President's ability to lead seems like she is hedging her bets, preparing to have Kamala invoke the statute to begin the process to take Biden out, after which Harris would be installed.
Trump, for better or for worse, is currently a towering figure in our culture, completely dominating the mentality of the fanatical fringes on both sides of the political spectrum. TDS, which is Trump Derangement Syndrome on the left, and Trump Devotion Syndrome on the right, has most of the public discourse concerning Trump boiling over constantly. He dominates all the media outlets, infests both real and virtual culture around the globe, and all the while, he swaggers through everyone's lives like the proverbial bull in the China shop without ever stopping to contemplate the effects of his presence, except to perhaps stop for a few seconds to fix his coiffure in the mirror.
So, on one hand, we have a bell-rung old codger, with a really rough record on policy, who lurches and putters around, occasionally forgetting where he is, and on the other hand, we have a brash blowhard that constantly dives head first into situations and manages to come out looking like he knew what he was doing all along (with a few obvious and dire exceptions, such as COVID), even though it's pretty clear he doesn't.
I dunno, for me, it's a fairly easy call, as I am pretty firmly planted in that odd space between libertarian, center right, so it's a vote for Trump for me, even if I will wince a bit when I pull the level. Actually, i already pulled the lever. That said, I am by no means dressed up in MAGA gear, parading around extoling my devotion to the guy.
Lastly - this thread will be locked, and probably soon. Our patience with these threads has worn pretty thin. We aren't quite zero tolerance, but we are getting there! ;) So, fair warning: at the first sign of a fire starting, this will probably be closed.
Prediction:
Trump!
It looks like Trump is going to win, but I want the other guy to win (sorry Joe Biden,- you're just the other guy). Trump rallies are funny and charismatic on the other hand Joe Biden talks nonsense sometimes and he said he would faze out oil and gas industries. Trump promises to keep the economy going whereas Joe Biden threatens more lock-downs.
Stirchley
10-30-20, 04:23 PM
Lastly - this thread will be locked, and probably soon. Our patience with these threads has worn pretty thin. We aren't quite zero tolerance, but we are getting there! ;) So, fair warning: at the first sign of a fire starting, this will probably be closed.
The election is Tuesday so this thread will be moot very very soon.
Alright, I'm gonna cut this off right now and say that this thread can only exist if it's literally just for answering the question. No overt political discussion lobbying for either candidate or explaining how they're going to win/lose because they're so great/awful.
If people just wanna talk odds and predictions, sure, although to my mind 90% of the time people just predict whatever they want to happen, anyway.
Stirchley
10-30-20, 04:27 PM
Alright, I'm gonna cut this off right now and say that this thread can only exist if it's literally just for answering the question. No overt political discussion lobbying for either candidate or explaining how they're going to win/lose because they're so great/awful.
This would be my greatest wish. (Emphasis added above.)
Same. But how realistic that is, days before an election...well. Tougher to say. ;) The responses so far are probably predictable, though.
Anyway, that's my fair warning for everyone! :)
Chypmunk
10-30-20, 04:40 PM
My money's on a deeply contested outcome followed by a lengthy legal process that ends with a re-run of the whole thing in about a years time.
John McClane
10-30-20, 05:15 PM
Whoever gets the most votes.
https://i.imgur.com/K7MWmqX.png
Nausicaä
10-31-20, 02:06 PM
I would be very surprised if Donald Trump doesn't get in again. I'm glad I'm not voting, it's the lesser of two evils once again...
I don't like Trump but I also don't trust Biden at all.
https://media.tenor.com/images/4c3016b73f4266cce05f8cad6b99f3ac/tenor.gif
matt72582
10-31-20, 03:25 PM
Trump, by default. A country with 320 mil, these are the best two a-holes out there?
I totally agree.. I think because of the mail-in ballots, Biden will win (UGH - and I'm the farthest thing from a Republican)
I also wonder how long it take to concede. My first election was 2000 - took months...
(If this thread gets locked, why not a poll with no replies allowed?)
(If this thread gets locked, why not a poll with no replies allowed?)
A fine idea. I'm actually not sure if closing a thread locks a poll, but I don't think it would. I'll keep this in mind.
Citizen Rules
10-31-20, 04:36 PM
A fine idea. I'm actually not sure if closing a thread locks a poll, but I don't think it would. I'll keep this in mind.If a poll was added or done in another thread, I'd prefer the poll to be:
Who Do You Support for the Next President
as opposed to
Who Will be Our Next President
I think the results would be more interesting.
HollowMan
10-31-20, 04:51 PM
I'm hoping it's not going to be Trump, but I'm also terrified that it will be Trump.
Funny, I was thinking the same thing about Biden...
I really hope Trump wins but I just can't see it happening. The polls are just too much against him. Either way I think it will be a long drawn out process with all the mail-in ballots. I just hate to see a great country like America so bitterly entrenched in divided camps. Hard to believe that just a generation ago Reagan won 49 states in 1984!
My prediction: a comfortable win for Biden.
Interesting you say that, because pollsters sometimes believe that "who do you think will win?" is actually a better predictor than "who are you voting for?"
cricket
10-31-20, 05:46 PM
I very much hope it's Trump and that's who I voted for. Trump is an absolute maniac when it comes to his energy and getting things done. It's still more a reflection of where I believe the political parties are right now as a whole. Just going off a tad, one of my biggest concerns these days is the dishonesty of the media in their efforts to influence.
I think Trumps gonna win again. His supporters are the most loyal I've seen since Reagan
Captain Steel
10-31-20, 06:36 PM
I think it's going to be Tongo!
He's Talkin About My Leader (The Simpsons):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1TJFqNW6oo
Mr Minio
11-01-20, 01:14 PM
https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.522776008.4599/flat,750x,075,f-pad,750x1000,f8f8f8.jpg
Wyldesyde19
11-01-20, 01:27 PM
All hail our Lord Cthulhu!
Equilibrium
11-01-20, 01:55 PM
I'm gonna go with the prediction of Allan Lichteman and say Biden.
doubledenim
11-02-20, 07:53 AM
We all good with only votes in by election night count?
Sir Toose
11-02-20, 11:34 AM
Trump
Daniel M
11-02-20, 12:47 PM
I think Biden is going to win and I have money on Biden, I see the situation as a lot different to four years ago and think he has quite a straightforward path to victory. Now reading this thread has made me a little worried :p
Lots of people betting in Britain on Trump but I think that's because a) he's better value for money than Biden with odds and b) they think it's like last time with bookies undervaluing him and polls being wrong (which was wildly exaggerated at the time and in different circumstances)
different circumstances
It's been four years of continuous Trump bashing.
As a European I'm for Biden to win, because he would be more accommodating to European interests.
Daniel M
11-02-20, 01:51 PM
It's been four years of continuous Trump bashing.
I don't think that makes much of a difference to be honest and isn't really part of my considerations. He got a load of media bashing during the last election and new stuff kept coming to light (like grab her by the...) but it didn't do anything. I think his supporters (and some others) aren't too bothered by that. There haven't really been any shocking revelations in the last few years for Trump.
I think if the election was this time last year he would have won but people have been unimpressed by how he has turned the Covid crisis into an opportunity to promote himself and how he has attacked scientists, mocked mask-wearers and social distancing and so on. I'm a sceptic myself when it comes to a lot of the government intervention here in the UK but I think it's about attitude and leading by example. Being macho has worked on other issues and helped him beat Hillary but I actually think people trust and respect Biden a lot more for taking this seriously. This is just my POV as someone from the UK though.
I don't want to get into a long debate and I know Yoda said to avoid actual political debate but I don't think he's really delivered much either, to be honest, at least not in the conventional sense that I would expect from a Republican. Economically he hasn't been very fiscally prudent, with a lot of his barriers/tariffs damaging, his libertarian war stance seems to come and go when he wants votes, there's no wall and so on. He's very authoritarian and anti-free market (like trying to censor Twitter too). I think a decent Republican would beat the Democrats who have a lot of potential weak spots (court packing, law and order), but they picked a safe moderate candidate hoping people would go for the calm option.
But back on topic the polls would have to be a lot more wrong than last time for Trump to win as I understand it. Last time they actually seemed to slightly underrate HC on the Popular vote, and Trump just managed to get like 2/3% more than predicted in some key swing states. If Biden manages to hold on to what HC got and add a few more then he gets it. Again, this is my view from afar but I do take a keen interest in all this, but I would really be shocked if Trump won again.
If Biden manages to hold on to what HC got and add a few more then he gets it.
Biden only needs to flip Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin. All three of these were a percentage point victories for Trump.
As a European I'm for Biden to win, because he would be more accommodating to European interests.
Trump has his US America first notion.
Trump has his US America first notion.
As a European, I think that's a good attribute for the US president. I wish our politicians would be more concerned about our countries/people too.
TheUsualSuspect
11-02-20, 02:41 PM
I hope it's Biden and I think he will win too.
cricket
11-02-20, 02:44 PM
I think there's a lot of democrats and even people who vocally support Biden who will secretly vote Trump because it's better for their wallets.
Stirchley
11-02-20, 03:43 PM
If a poll was added or done in another thread, I'd prefer the poll to be:
Who Do You Support for the Next President
as opposed to
Who Will be Our Next President
I think the results would be more interesting.
This thread might have been more interesting if you’d simply answered the OP. :p
HollowMan
11-02-20, 03:44 PM
Trump has his US America first notion.
It would be very bizarre if the head of State of a particular nation did not want to put the interests of that nation first. I would expect nothing less.
Stirchley
11-02-20, 03:46 PM
It’s going to be an interesting week for sure. We don’t even know which day the final result will be declared.
BTW, glad this thread didn’t go down in flames over the weekend. I do think we’ve all been mighty civil to each other, which is what I wanted. :)
gandalf26
11-02-20, 04:01 PM
It’s going to be an interesting week for sure. We don’t even know which day the final result will be declared.
BTW, glad this thread didn’t go down in flames over the weekend. I do think we’ve all been mighty civil to each other, which is what I wanted. :)
There can only be one GOAT!!!!
It would be very bizarre if the head of State of a particular nation did not want to put the interests of that nation first. I would expect nothing less.
Yes, but Trump started "trade wars" to "make US America great again" and more industrious and self sufficient. USA became more isolationist and he viewed international compromise as weakness. US America can do this only because of it's size and militaristic and economic power. Smaller Nations have no choice, but to compromise for it's own and greater good. Compromise can also be for self interest.
HollowMan
11-02-20, 05:46 PM
Yes, but Trump started "trade wars" to "make US America great again" and more industrious and self sufficient. USA became more isolationist and he viewed international compromise as weakness. US America can do this only because of it's size and militaristic and economic power. Smaller Nations have no choice, but to compromise for it's own and greater good. Compromise can also be for self interest.
Compromise is for the weak. Anyway Biden is going to win so America can resume a bland presence on the global stage.
Captain Steel
11-02-20, 06:00 PM
https://www.buttonmuseum.org/sites/default/files/PO-pat-paulsen-for-pres-button_busy_beaver_button_museum.png
WrinkledMind
11-02-20, 06:12 PM
Any another politician achieving what Trump has achieved in Middle East by mending relationships between fighting countries would have been bestowed upon with a Nobel or at least more recognition.
Also, as an Indian I am grateful that he and the GOP have either denied or halted major monetary aid to Pakistan, which is meant for the poor and for the fight against Taliban, but is always diverted to training new terrorists instead by the Pak army that can be used against Afghanistan and India.
Hillary wouldn't have been that. She would have, in all probability, started a new war or destabilised some country. Showered Pakistan with more money. All of which Biden or the eventual President Harris (after Biden step down with bad health) will do.
(I hope Yoda doesn't get angry with me for going off-track)
As for the topic, reckon it will be Biden.
But as an academic curiosity, how affected these polls would have been with Coronavirus issue. Doesn't make it easier to conduct them. So will the margin of error be more?
Daniel M
11-02-20, 06:20 PM
As a European, I think that's a good attribute for the US president. I wish our politicians would be more concerned about our countries/people too.
Easier said than done. Nationalistic/patriotic rhetoric can be nice to hear but the reality seems much more complex. I think China is a good example of this, I despise their authoritarian regime but slapping tariffs on them and bragging about how income they've generated is meaningless if not compared with the economic costs that come from the consequences of these decisions regarding imports/exports which often fall to consumers/businesses.
I'm interested in seeing how Trump does with a lot of the "rust belt" states whose industries he promised to protect/revive, we have a similar situation in the UK with Conservatives turning to more interventionist fiscal policy rather than free-market in attempting to appeal to Northern seats.
Daniel M
11-02-20, 06:24 PM
But as an academic curiosity, how affected these polls would have been with Coronavirus issue. Doesn't make it easier to conduct them. So will the margin of error be more?
I could be wrong but I have always been under the impressed that polls are carried out via digital means, through phone, or more nowadays online. I think it's certainly the case here in the UK at least. I take part in YouGov surveys almost everyday, it's quite easy to sign up and take part but it does require a bit of effort in the actual surveys. They actually pay you too once you've contributed enough :)
WrinkledMind
11-02-20, 06:30 PM
I could be wrong but I have always been under the impressed that polls are carried out via digital means, through phone, or more nowadays online. I think it's certainly the case here in the UK at least. I take part in YouGov surveys almost everyday, it's quite easy to sign up and take part but it does require a bit of effort in the actual surveys. They actually pay you too once you've contributed enough :)
I agree with you on phone and online survey, but certain demographics, which incidentally have a big say in the results in most countries, are usually not tech savvy and that's where these pollsters go on ground. With US it would be the interiors or south. Even though, US didn't have strict lockdowns like other nations, I would imagine that must have been difficult to do or done to a smaller degree.
cricket
11-02-20, 07:19 PM
I just don't have faith in those polls with so many Trump supporters keeping quiet. The Gallup poll that says 56% of people say they are better off now then 4 years ago seems more relevant. That's an extremely high number as it is, and it was taken during a pandemic. It's really a startling number.
doubledenim
11-02-20, 07:43 PM
I’m curious how different people quantify “better off”. Is it no more debt? Is it driving a new car and a new house with debt that can’t be carried if the job goes away?
I try to see the good and bad in both sides, but I don’t “hear” people moving from one side to the other. They stick to what they always believe in and justify the shortcomings.
I can’t believe we don’t have federally mandated election protocols or a standard process for supreme court nominees. Making stuff up as we go along and bending to the whims of the majority in power is wrong, regardless of which side does it.
If betting was legal in NC I would have put a grand on Trump. That said, I don’t think record early turnout is because Trump has grown his following.
Seems dissonant to say the polls are wrong because Trump supporters are being quiet, but then also cite a poll as evidence of it. That's really a narrow thread, to saying they're answering general polls but not specific ones. Also, pollsters weight to account for these things. It's imperfect, but I think a lot of laypeople think they're just calling whoever and just shrug it off if a certain demographic decides not to answer. That's not how it works.
Anyway, what you're describing has been described before, it was once known as the "shy Tory" effect and it's been floated with different names and in different contexts in many elections since. And it'll be cited again after this one even if it doesn't end up manifesting. I'm pretty sympathetic to the idea that it exists, but thinking it can explain away the kinds of margins we're seeing is a pretty huge stretch.
If the results are massively different than expected, it won't be because of this effect, it'll be because of a more fundamental problem with modern polling.
cricket
11-02-20, 07:56 PM
I’m curious how different people quantify “better off”. Is it no more debt? Is it driving a new car and a new house with debt that can’t be carried if the job goes away?
I try to see the good and bad in both sides, but I don’t “hear” people moving from one side to the other. They stick to what they always believe in and justify the shortcomings.
I can’t believe we don’t have federally mandated election protocols or a standard process for supreme court nominees. Making stuff up as we go along and bending to the whims of the majority in power is wrong, regardless of which side does it.
If betting was legal in NC I would have put a grand on Trump. That said, I don’t think record early turnout is because Trump has grown his following.
Keeping it about me personally since that's what the poll is about, I pay less taxes, less for gas in my car, less for utilities, my wife pays less for prescription medication, and our home's value and my 401K has gone way up. Under Obama, when I was out of work for a couple of years by choice, I had to pay a penalty because I didn't have health insurance. What if it wasn't my choice? I also feel safer without any foreign conflict because I think it could have a connection to the terror attacks, which seemed to occur on a daily basis prior to Trump, practically disappearing here altogether since he's been in office. If Biden wins, I believe this all gets reversed. Even the huge increase in tax on people making over 400k will hurt someone like me a lot. If it hurts my boss, that can affect raises, bonuses, overtime, and jobs. I'm truly puzzled why anyone would want Biden to win.
cricket
11-02-20, 08:00 PM
Seems dissonant to say the polls are wrong because Trump supporters are being quiet, but then also cite a poll as evidence of it. That's really a narrow thread, to saying they're answering general polls but not specific ones.
Well aren't people just concerned about saying they support Trump? Saying you're better off now is not necessarily an indicator of who you support as an individual.
Well aren't people just concerned about saying they support Trump? Saying you're better off now is not necessarily an indicator of who you support as an individual.
That's precisely what I'm getting at, yeah.
Anyway, the thing you're describing, as I mentioned, has a name and a history and all that. It'd be reasonable to say such an effect exists but as actually observed it seems pretty modest.
cricket
11-02-20, 10:39 PM
That's precisely what I'm getting at, yeah.
Anyway, the thing you're describing, as I mentioned, has a name and a history and all that. It'd be reasonable to say such an effect exists but as actually observed it seems pretty modest.
I didn't know there was a history to it but I don't doubt it. I still would guess it's different now with how polarizing Trump is and that people are more hesitant than ever to share their opinion with the violence from the left. I also think many Trump supporters have a great deal of mistrust for the media, for good reason, and that mistrust could very easily extend to pollsters.
That’s where weighting comes in. It would take an extreme number of "shy" voters to just get missed on any significant scale.
The better criticism is of the fact that weighting requires turnout assumptions.
cricket
11-03-20, 06:40 AM
That’s where weighting comes in. It would take an extreme number of "shy" voters to just get missed on any significant scale.
The better criticism is of the fact that weighting requires turnout assumptions.
Yep but I wonder if there's more to it than just the shy voter this time around. I also wonder if weighting reflects what the average election is, since this one is probably as far from average as you can get. On the other hand I would say the Gallup poll is more likely to be accurate. If so that would have to be a good sign for the incumbent.
John McClane
11-03-20, 08:43 AM
I’d say that there are far more loud supporters of Trump than shy, but I have a feeling that something crazy is going to happen with voter turn out today.
Early numbers so far indict that voters are engaged at numbers we haven’t seen before. Meanwhile, I couldn’t be more disengaged from the whole mess.
I’ll be headed to the polls today and I still don’t know if I’ll be repeating my absence of a President vote. Probably time to flip that coin now. I’ve seen enough evidence over the last 12 years to tell me neither party has America’s interests at heart. Sad times :(
cricket
11-03-20, 10:02 AM
I’ve seen enough evidence over the last 12 years to tell me neither party has America’s interests at heart. Sad times :(
You could be totally correct, but we have a guy who could have just sat on an island and lived it up. He donates his salary and his wealth has taken a massive hit. None of us know what goes on behind closed doors and what's accurate all the time, so I have skepticism myself. But appearances are that he's doing everything he can for the country and it's citizens. His love of the country is something he's talked about for many years. Why is he doing all of this? The right reason is at least one of the options we have to consider even if it doesn't feel legitimate.
doubledenim
11-03-20, 10:34 AM
I have written multiple posts in this thread and deleted them, because I know better than to try and engage in this stuff.
I just don’t understand the Trump stuff. He was always a con-man. His history of business is not making Warren Buffet look over his shoulder. He courts religious support, but nothing shows him practicing the belief other than lip service. His tax plan will be a whole lot different for anyone under $100k in 2027, but that will be put on the incumbent. He has no desire to fight towards clean energy, while countries like China have targeted being carbon neutral by 2060.
I get Trump makes people feel safe, but what about the people that he doesn’t make feel safe? Then I realize what a Pollyanna I am and it’s never been about making us all feel safe and secure.
cricket
11-03-20, 11:51 AM
There's a lot I'd like to say in ^^^response but I'll just eat it so I don't get the thread closed.
I will say that if Biden wins I'll be worried, but he'll be my president and I'll support him and hope he does a great job.
Citizen Rules
11-03-20, 12:31 PM
I have written multiple posts in this thread and deleted them, because I know better than to try and engage in this stuff.
I just don’t understand the Trump stuff. He was always a con-man. His history of business is not making Warren Buffet look over his shoulder. He courts religious support, but nothing shows him practicing the belief other than lip service. His tax plan will be a whole lot different for anyone under $100k in 2027, but that will be put on the incumbent. He has no desire to fight towards clean energy, while countries like China have targeted being carbon neutral by 2060.
I get Trump makes people feel safe, but what about the people that he doesn’t make feel safe? Then I realize what a Pollyanna I am and it’s never been about making us all feel safe and secure.I can explain Trump to you with this:
have an inflated sense of their own importance, a deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to the slightest criticism. Does that sound like his pattern of behavior?
It's from here:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/symptoms-causes/syc-20366662
cricket
11-03-20, 12:49 PM
One trait of a narcissist is judging others, something many of us do but something to keep in mind. It would definitely be a struggle for me to judge somebody I didn't know however.
Miss Vicky
11-03-20, 01:16 PM
One trait of a narcissist is judging others, something many of us do but something to keep in mind. It would definitely be a struggle for me to judge somebody I didn't know however.
I don't think judging someone in public office, especially the president, is any indication of narcissism.
cricket
11-03-20, 01:35 PM
I don't think judging someone in public office, especially the president, is any indication of narcissism.
Well I would say judgment of performance comes with the territory, but some of the judgment of character is in poor taste.
Wyldesyde19
11-03-20, 01:42 PM
This is a blatant misuse of the term narcissism.
Judgement in and of itself is hardly narcissistic, especially when considering what the judgement is based upon.
As MV points out above.
The President of the US will always be judged upon his actions, regardless of who he is. Be it Trump, Obama, Bush, FDR, Lincoln or Coolidge (Keep cool with Cal!)
This is hardly anything new.
We can argue over the judgement of his character whether it is deserved or not (it is, I mean his comments along with his history have shown his character) but I don’t want to get this thread closed as well.
If Joe wins, I’ll criticize him openly as I would any President.
Yep but I wonder if there's more to it than just the shy voter this time around. I also wonder if weighting reflects what the average election is, since this one is probably as far from average as you can get.
I don't really follow what this means. It sounds like you think "weighting" means comparing to some past average, or something?
Anyway, I'm not sure how into the weeds you want to get. I think the generalized response here is that this polling stuff isn't ever just making really blithe assumptions that the election will be "normal" or anything like that. In fact, it's often using the exact kinds of general polls (about enthusiasm) that you're referring to to gauge things like turnout, which, if you think the "right track" numbers are immune from the "shy" thing, it means the things weighting can be based on would be, too.
Doesn't mean it can't be wrong anyway, but when it is it's a) not usually very wrong and b) not wrong because of very predictable, common-sense kinda things like we're discussing here.
Citizen Rules
11-03-20, 02:00 PM
This is a blatant misuse of the term narcissism.
Judgement in and of itself is hardly narcissistic, especially when considering what the judgement is based upon.
As MV points out above.
The President of the US will always be judged upon his actions, regardless of who he is. Be it Trump, Obama, Bush, FDR, Lincoln or Coolidge (Keep cool with Cal!)
This is hardly anything new.
We can argue over the judgement of his character whether it is deserved or not (it is, I mean his comments along with his history have shown his character) but I don’t want to get this thread closed as well.
If Joe wins, I’ll criticize him openly as I would any President.Do you mean what I posted? If so I stand by it completely. But I don't need to rehash it or argue it, as I said what I believe and a number of medical professionals have said the same. So in the interest of peace, I'll let you have the last word🙂
I think the problem is phrases like "some people." It's pretty easy to find any group going too far with any valid criticism. The question is whether we engage with that--the worst version of the argument--or with the version that is appropriately nuanced and has merit. It's quite easy to let our preferred candidate off the hook by focusing on overreactions, because there are always overreactions.
cricket
11-03-20, 02:01 PM
This is a blatant misuse of the term narcissism.
Judgement in and of itself is hardly narcissistic, especially when considering what the judgement is based upon.
As MV points out above.
The President of the US will always be judged upon his actions, regardless of who he is. Be it Trump, Obama, Bush, FDR, Lincoln or Coolidge (Keep cool with Cal!)
This is hardly anything new.
We can argue over the judgement of his character whether it is deserved or not (it is, I mean his comments along with his history have shown his character) but I don’t want to get this thread closed as well.
If Joe wins, I’ll criticize him openly as I would any President.
I don't belong to either party, didn't vote for him before, but think he's the best option of the 2 now. Without holding back, I don't like some of the attacks on his character. In fact, I find some of it despicable. The racist stuff is completely uncalled for. When people say he called Mexicans rapists, say he's referring to white supremacists when he said "fine people on both sides", called for the deaths of 5 innocent teeens (Central Park 5), called black nfl players sons of bitches, etc. etc., these are completely false. These are things told by liars or people who believe liars, and those are the people who have divided the country. People blame Trump for the division because of these things he supposedly said, but if he actually didn't say them, it's the people perpetuating these lies who are causing it. This is very upsetting to me and much bigger than either candidate.
Wyldesyde19
11-03-20, 02:02 PM
Do you mean what I posted? If so I stand by it completely. But I don't need to rehash it or argue it, as I said what I believe and a number of medical professionals have said the same. So in the interest of peace, I'll let you have the last word🙂
No, not you haha
cricket
11-03-20, 02:03 PM
And I'm not criticizing anyone in this thread for judging. I just think that as a whole it's an uglier than ever part of our society right now.
Wyldesyde19
11-03-20, 02:07 PM
I don't belong to either party, didn't vote for him before, but think he's the best option of the 2 now. Without holding back, I don't like some of the attacks on his character. In fact, I find some of it despicable. The racist stuff is completely uncalled for. When people say he called Mexicans rapists, say he's referring to white supremacists when he said "fine people on both sides", called for the deaths of 5 innocent teeens (Central Park 5), called black nfl players sons of bitches, etc. etc., these are completely false. These are things told by liars or people who believe liars, and those are the people who have divided the country. People blame Trump for the division because of these things he supposedly said, but if he actually didn't say them, it's the people perpetuating these lies who are causing it. This is very upsetting to me and much bigger than either candidate.
That’s a pretty fair assessment, yes. His words have indeed been twisted with his full comments cut up.
But there is far more to his character being called out then the above examples you’ve provided.
Regardless, I see it bothers you so I’ll drop it out of respect for you.
cricket
11-03-20, 02:11 PM
That’s a pretty fair assessment, yes. His words have indeed been twisted with his full comments cut up.
But there is far more to his character being called out then the above examples you’ve provided.
Regardless, I see it bothers you so I’ll drop it out of respect for you.
No it's ok, I don't think he's mister wonderful or anything. I would just like more decency and fairness from the general population. The issues with Trump pale in comparison as far as I'm concerned.
Citizen Rules
11-03-20, 02:12 PM
No, not you hahaI'm so clueless, sometimes!
Wyldesyde19
11-03-20, 02:34 PM
I'm so clueless, sometimes!
To be fair, I wasn’t specific. No worries haha
You could be totally correct, but we have a guy who could have just sat on an island and lived it up. He donates his salary and his wealth has taken a massive hit. None of us know what goes on behind closed doors and what's accurate all the time, so I have skepticism myself. But appearances are that he's doing everything he can for the country and it's citizens. His love of the country is something he's talked about for many years. Why is he doing all of this? The right reason is at least one of the options we have to consider even if it doesn't feel legitimate.
This is the least compelling of his arguments, to my mind. For one, because the salary thing is symbolic to the point of meaninglessness at his wealth level. Good PR but it's not even a drop in the bucket relative to the policies he enacts and the behavior he exhibits. It doesn't counteract even one tiny mistake, frankly, in the broad scheme of things.
There's also an either-or aspect to it: it's a trivial amount of money no matter what, but especially if you think he's telling the truth about his wealth. And if he's not, and the amount does matter, then the character you think you see from foregoing it would be more than offset by the lack of character involved in lying about said wealth.
He's doing this for himself. He likes attention. Simple as that. That's why he kept holding rallies after he won, and why every report we get says he spends most of his time reading tweets and watching cable news. I'm sure a lot of people become President for this, for notions of history and legacy and all that. To be frank, it's such a meat grinder, running for President, and so obviously awful, that I'm pretty sure really damaged people doing it for some deep reason of insecurity, are overwhelmingly the people most likely to subject themselves to it.
Let's not let this get any more specific than it already has, though. The question was who you thought would win, not even who you wanted to, let alone the many reasons you want them to. I've left it stretch because, duh, it's a big important event and everyone's been pretty cool so far, and it's all we'll be thinking about today, but I do just want to remind everyone of that. :)
Thanks in advance.
Captain Steel
11-03-20, 02:53 PM
Let's not let this get any more specific than it already has, though. The question was who you thought would win, not even who you wanted to, let alone the many reasons you want them to. I've left it stretch because, duh, it's a big important event and everyone's been pretty cool so far, and it's all we'll be thinking about today, but I do just want to remind everyone of that. :)
Thanks in advance.
In that case I think Biden will win because of the mail-in voter fraud the Democrats have been working on for four years - then a pandemic happens that conveniently pushes the plan through with a built-in excuse to use mail-in voting nationwide.
cricket
11-03-20, 03:06 PM
This is the least compelling of his arguments, to my mind. For one, because the salary thing is symbolic to the point of meaninglessness at his wealth level. Good PR but it's not even a drop in the bucket relative to the policies he enacts and the behavior he exhibits. It doesn't counteract even one tiny mistake, frankly, in the broad scheme of things.
There's also an either-or aspect to it: it's a trivial amount of money no matter what, but especially if you think he's telling the truth about his wealth. And if he's not, and the amount does matter, then the character you think you see from foregoing it would be more than offset by the lack of character involved in lying about said wealth.
He's doing this for himself. He likes attention. Simple as that. That's why he kept holding rallies after he won, and why every report we get says he spends most of his time reading tweets and watching cable news. I'm sure a lot of people become President for this, for notions of history and legacy and all that. To be frank, it's such a meat grinder, running for President, and so obviously awful, that I'm pretty sure really damaged people doing it for some deep reason of insecurity, are overwhelmingly the people most likely to subject themselves to it.
Certainly a possibility. It's just incomprehensible for me to believe someone his age would go through all that. If I were him I wouldn't be doing anything.
Let's not let this get any more specific than it already has, though. The question was who you thought would win, not even who you wanted to, let alone the many reasons you want them to. I've left it stretch because, duh, it's a big important event and everyone's been pretty cool so far, and it's all we'll be thinking about today, but I do just want to remind everyone of that. :)
Thanks in advance.
Sorry it's hard for me to contain myself. 4 years go I didn't even know the difference between a Republican and a Democrat, or a conservative and a liberal. Now I'm gung ho and could go on forever. Even thought I'm in a Democrat state, most people I encounter agree with me about these things. When I find someone who disagrees, they won't talk to me. So now I have all this pent up energy.
Certainly a possibility. It's just incomprehensible for me to believe someone his age would go through all that. If I were him I wouldn't be doing anything.
I'm not sure why. This is, in fact, exactly what people in his position often do. What else are they gonna do, when they have the money to buy more or less what they want? At that point the only thrill is from conquest, from fame, from power. In many ways it's the only thing left to do, and for someone who even his biggest fans have to agree loves attention, this doesn't seem too mysterious. It's totally on brand and easily explained, I think.
Sorry it's hard for me to contain myself. 4 years go I didn't even know the difference between a Republican and a Democrat, or a conservative and a liberal. Now I'm gung ho and could go on forever. Even thought I'm in a Democrat state, most people I encounter agree with me about these things. When I find someone who disagrees, they won't talk to me. So now I have all this pent up energy.
I suspect there are many people like you in that regard, yeah. The surprises have come in large part because we had a relatively static electorate for awhile there, and for both good and ill a very unusual candidate (up against a really unpopular one last time) meant a whole lot of new people engaged in the process who never were before. It's stymied a lot of people who got way too comfortable with the old political fault lines. Those things never last. This one won't either. Be interesting to see what the new standard "party lines" are a decade or two from now, or if the whole concept becomes archaic in a little while.
That said, the "everyone I know" thing is common to all sides. There's a famous quote from Pauline Kael about this: "I don't see how Nixon won, nobody I know voted for him." And IIRC this was in '72, when he won by 20 points. Usually more a commentary about us and the circles we run in than the electorate as a whole.
I even have a personal example here: where I live, it's overwhelmingly Biden signs. Where my parents live, it's overwhelming Trump signs. My impression of what "everyone" thinks would literally shift overnight if I still lived at home and then moved out one day.
In that case I think Biden will win because of the mail-in voter fraud the Democrats have been working on for four years - then a pandemic happens that conveniently pushes the plan through with a built-in excuse to use mail-in voting nationwide.
The evidence for either claim is vanishingly small, but sure.
doubledenim
11-03-20, 03:56 PM
DP answered this question for us a long time ago 😆
https://youtu.be/gAjR4_CbPpQ
Yes, I’m really proud of myself for this one. You’ll never hear it another way, just like My Cocaine and Crisp Rat.
cricket
11-03-20, 04:59 PM
I'm not sure why. This is, in fact, exactly what people in his position often do. What else are they gonna do, when they have the money to buy more or less what they want? At that point the only thrill is from conquest, from fame, from power. In many ways it's the only thing left to do, and for someone who even his biggest fans have to agree loves attention, this doesn't seem too mysterious. It's totally on brand and easily explained, I think.
I would think the majority of filthy rich, when they reach retirement age, retire. The ones who don't I guess you're assuming they do it for personal glory. Some could, but given the amount of work he does, I think it's fair to say there's an equal chance Trump is doing it for love of country, especially since he's talked about it for years. Of course that might not be a thought for someone who wants to form an opinion based on his bold and brash personality. It could be either, and my guess would be that it's a combination of the two, and that wouldn't be a bad thing in my mind as long as he does put in the work. Why is Biden doing it? He's older than Trump and not to be mean but he doesn't even appear capable. He is also very wealthy, but unlike Trump he's made his money due to being in politics. Has he selflessly done a lot for his country in the last 47 years?
Equilibrium
11-03-20, 05:02 PM
Wait wait.
Yoda said only yes or no responses. And as a person who has a long and storied history of getting banned for getting political heated on this forum, I stuck to a single one liner response. You guys are full on writing essays!
Don't get me started... ;)
Equilibrium
11-03-20, 05:04 PM
In that case I think Biden will win because of the mail-in voter fraud the Democrats have been working on for four years - then a pandemic happens that conveniently pushes the plan through with a built-in excuse to use mail-in voting nationwide.
Hey, how's the weather in fantasy land there?
Voter fraud for the past four years when YOUR candidate has made claims that he would stop counting votes after today (which he can't and won't do). Give me a break.
Gonna ask that we cut off that particular line of discussion right there. Shouldn't have even gotten that far.
The latitude so far has been the result of no one person making claims that were too strong. Let's get back to that, please.
I would think the majority of filthy rich, when they reach retirement age, retire. The ones who don't I guess you're assuming they do it for personal glory.
Hmm, I'm not sure if that's true. Filthy rich people are usually in public life, and that's not a coincidence. It's easy for people who aren't rich to think that they would never want anything more than that, but in practice it doesn't appear to be true.
Regardless, talking about these people in general isn't the right question, because in this case we have specific facts about the individual. See below.
Some could, but given the amount of work he does
I don't know what work you mean. As I said, we have so, so many testimonials about him just sort of watching TV and tweeting most of the day, and being specifically disinterested in the tougher, more boring parts of the job. There is very little evidence that there's a lot of serious governance going on. He has a lot of energy for someone, I'll agree with that, it just seems directed mostly towards media coverage and petty grievances and stuff.
I think it's fair to say there's an equal chance Trump is doing it for love of country, especially since he's talked about it for years.
I don't think that's fair to say at all, and in fact I think there's a mountain of evidence otherwise. We have a couple decades of him talking himself up in the press, starting TV shows, yakkin' on Twitter, et cetera. You obviously can't believe he started a TV show all about himself for the "love of country," so we go into this question already knowing this is someone who loves attention and loves talking themselves up. This is obviously true even if you really like the guy, nobody really denies it. Why you would somehow think selflessness is the more likely explanation is, to me, kinda perplexing. I've never heard someone make that argument. They usually just argue that they don't care what his motives are as long as he delivers policies they like, fights the people they hate, etc.
I don't know what him having "talked about it for years" is supposed to establish. It's perfectly consistent with the self-involved explanations, as much or moreso than than the selfless ones.
Why is Biden doing it? He's older than Trump and not to be mean but he doesn't even appear capable. He is also very wealthy, but unlike Trump he's made his money due to being in politics. Has he selflessly done a lot for his country in the last 47 years?
Biden is not wealthy by political standards, not that it matters much to me either way. These kinds of questions are not relevant. They're fine to consider when you're doing a straight "who do I vote for?" consideration, but they have no bearing when deciding which individual things to criticize or not, or when assessing each person's character granularly. "Better than X" is not the same thing as "good." And making that mistake is how we keep getting such bad candidates on both sides.
John McClane
11-03-20, 05:27 PM
Just wanna say this: the weather is beautiful right now just about everywhere. This race is far from won by either side, and this is probably going to be one of the closest races any of us have ever seen.
cricket
11-03-20, 05:43 PM
Hmm, I'm not sure if that's true. Filthy rich people are usually in public life, and that's not a coincidence. It's easy for people who aren't rich to think that they would never want anything more than that, but in practice it doesn't appear to be true.
How do we come to the determination that rich people, who happen to be past retirement age btw, are usually in public life? And that's not the same thing as taking a very difficult job.
I don't know what work you mean. As I said, we have so, so many testimonials about him just sort of watching TV and tweeting most of the day, and being specifically disinterested in the tougher, more boring parts of the job. There is very little evidence that there's a lot of serious governance going on. He has a lot of energy for someone, I'll agree with that, it just seems directed mostly towards media coverage and petty grievances and stuff.
To me, he appears busier than presidents of the past. He always seems to be on the go and I don't recall him taking vacations like others.
I don't think that's fair to say at all, and in fact I think there's a mountain of evidence otherwise. We have a couple decades of him talking himself up in the press, starting TV shows, yakkin' on Twitter, et cetera. You obviously can't believe he started a TV show all about himself for the "love of country," so we go into this question already knowing this is someone who loves attention and loves talking themselves up. This is obviously true even if you really like the guy, nobody really denies it. Why you would somehow think selflessness is the more likely explanation is, to me, kinda perplexing. I've never heard someone make that argument. They usually just argue that they don't care what his motives are as long as he delivers policies they like, fights the people they hate, etc.
I don't think selflessness is the more likely explanation, but it could be an explanation, or at least part of it. Sure, there's evidence of self promotion, but that's not evidence against wanting to help the country or do some good.
Biden is not wealthy by political standards, not that it matters much to me either way. These kinds of questions are not relevant. They're fine to consider when you're doing a straight "who do I vote for?" consideration, but they have no bearing when deciding which individual things to criticize or not, or when assessing each person's character granularly. "Better than X" is not the same thing as "good." And making that mistake is how we keep getting such bad candidates on both sides.
Just wondering why one candidate gets questioned but not the other. If we question one's motivation it's fair to question the other's.
How do we come to the determination that rich people, who happen to be past retirement age btw, are usually in public life? And that's not the same thing as taking a very difficult job.
The question was about "filthy rich" people. Perhaps you should define the term, if you wanna delve into it. But if you go down the Forbes' list you'll have heard of most of them in some capacity. Maybe flip the burden of proof and ask yourself how many filthy rich people are anonymous, and how you'd know that, if they actually were?
Also, note that the job being difficult is not in dispute. You don't get credit for taking a tough job if you don't do a lot of the tough parts. You also don't get credit for it if you don't know it's tough when you run for it. We've got hundreds of tweets from the last administration talking about all the things he'd do differently if he was President (many of which are inarguably at odds with what's been said and done since), for example, strongly suggesting he thinks or thought the job was a lot easier than it was, as every heckler in the crowd does.
To me, he appears busier than presidents of the past. He always seems to be on the go and I don't recall him taking vacations like others.
I'm not sure how you want me to respond to things like "he appears" and "seems to be." I can't account for whatever 3,000-mile-high impression you might be getting from just seeing him doing a lot of stuff.
As I said, even his critics must admit his energy level is impressive for his age. But constantly tweeting or holding rallies is not an example of working hard. Motion is not action, and movement is not work. In fact, I'd argue most of the real work of being President is by definition the boring behind-the-scenes stuff, so the more I see the President out at rallies and being noticeably in public, the less real work I tend to think they're doing. Most people understand this on some level: it's a running joke that politicians love to get in on photo ops and take credit for stuff, and this is kinda what it looks like. Being visibly on TV a lot is not an example of work, and is perfectly in line with the desire of attention I've been talking to.
I don't think selflessness is the more likely explanation, but it could be an explanation, or at least part of it. Sure, there's evidence of self promotion, but that's not evidence against wanting to help the country or do some good.
Correct, it isn't...but it doesn't have to be, because that wasn't the question/claim. The question/claim is about what he's cared about in the past and why he might want to be President. I don't begrudge him talking himself up (although it can get patently silly, like when he pretended to be his own PR guy and made up flattering stories about himself) or starting a TV show all about him, but it'd be kinda nuts to ignore all that stuff when you ask yourself why he might like to be in the most visible job in the world. One of these explanations is 100% consistent with decades of observed behavior, and the other is just a speculative thing that could be part of it because nobody can disprove it.
Just wondering why one candidate gets questioned but not the other.
I'm not sure why saying "just wondering" changes what I'm saying about relevance. You are free to wonder whatever you liked, but you posed this question in a response to me, in a discussion entirely about President Trump's character and motivation.
matt72582
11-03-20, 06:22 PM
I have so much to say politically, but have kept THAT pent up around here for 4 years, lol...
His salary is a drop in the bucket, but truth doesn't matter, as long as the people like hearing it. I watch all his rallies and tally in my head what they cheer at most.... I think some people voted for Trump "just to see what it would be like" or for entertainment value, especially if they don't believe the system will ever help them. Some people vote for the challenger if their life isn't going well (COVID, economy, personal life, etc).
With social media now as a huge factor, everything is reduced to emotions rather than ideology (which has been lost, unfortunately).
Captain Steel
11-03-20, 06:22 PM
I remember Election night here was really fun 4 years ago.
You should let Sexy Celebrity come back just for tonight to recapture the magic! ;)
cricket
11-03-20, 06:24 PM
The question was about "filthy rich" people. Perhaps you should define the term, if you wanna delve into it. But if you go down the Forbes' list you'll have heard of most of them in some capacity. Maybe flip the burden of proof and ask yourself how many filthy rich people are anonymous, and how you'd know that, if they actually were?
I'm not sure how I'd define filthy rich to be honest with you. Maybe worth over 100mil? Idk, but that's also not the only qualification I'm talking about. There's also past retirement age, taking a difficult job, and doing it for personal glory, and that last part comes with the assumption that we know who's doing it for personal glory which is not an assumption I'm willing to make.
Also, note that the job being difficult is not in dispute. You don't get credit for taking a tough job if you don't do a lot of the tough parts. You also don't get credit for it if you don't know it's tough when you run for it. We've got hundreds of tweets from the last administration talking about all the things he'd do differently if he was President (many of which are inarguably at odds with what's been said and done since), for example, strongly suggesting he thinks or thought the job was a lot easier than it was, as every heckler in the crowd does.
At a time when we have to be skeptical of what we hear or read, do we really know that he's not doing the tough parts? I think saying the job is more difficult than he thought is an honest and normal thing to say. If he didn't know then, he certainly knows now and he's still trying for a second term.
I'm not sure how you want me to respond to things like "he appears" and "seems to be." I can't account for whatever 3,000-mile-high impression you might be getting from just seeing him doing a lot of stuff.
Do you think he's accomplished much as President compared to Presidents of the past?
As I said, even his critics must admit his energy level is impressive for his age. But constantly tweeting or holding rallies is not an example of working hard. Motion is not action, and movement is not work. In fact, I'd argue most of the real work of being President is by definition the boring behind-the-scenes stuff, so the more I see the President out at rallies and being noticeably in public, the less real work I tend to think they're doing. Most people understand this on some level: it's a running joke that politicians love to get in on photo ops and take credit for stuff, and this is kinda what it looks like. Being visibly on TV a lot is not an example of work, and is perfectly in line with the desire of attention I've been talking to.
Sure, but we still don't know that he doesn't put in a lot of work.
Correct, it isn't...but it doesn't have to be, because that wasn't the question/claim. The question/claim is about what he's cared about in the past and why he might want to be President. I don't begrudge him talking himself up (although it can get patently silly, like when he pretended to be his own PR guy and made up flattering stories about himself) or starting a TV show all about him, but it'd be kinda nuts to ignore all that stuff when you ask yourself why he might like to be in the most visible job in the world. One of these explanations is 100% consistent with decades of observed behavior, and the other is just a speculative thing that could be part of it because nobody can disprove it.
I don't feel I'm speculating that he wants to help the country; I'm going by the fact that he's said that. From there, I'm not saying I believe him, I'm saying it's reasonable to think there could be some truth to it.
I'm not sure why saying "just wondering" changes what I'm saying about relevance. You are free to wonder whatever you liked, but you posed this question in a response to me, in a discussion entirely about President Trump's character and motivation.
Fair enough when it comes to our conversation.
cricket
11-03-20, 06:41 PM
I have so much to say politically, but have kept THAT pent up around here for 4 years, lol...
His salary is a drop in the bucket, but truth doesn't matter, as long as the people like hearing it. I watch all his rallies and tally in my head what they cheer at most.... I think some people voted for Trump "just to see what it would be like" or for entertainment value, especially if they don't believe the system will ever help them. Some people vote for the challenger if their life isn't going well (COVID, economy, personal life, etc).
With social media now as a huge factor, everything is reduced to emotions rather than ideology (which has been lost, unfortunately).
His salary is a drop in the bucket, but it's still a positive and it goes against what some people (not here) say about him doing this just for money. Not sure what you mean about the truth because I think they all tell lies. It does make me especially sick when Biden or Harris looks into the camera and says he called Mexicans rapists because they know damn well it's a lie and that it hurts the country. You want to question Trump's character, be my guest, but when they do that you better question their character as well.
cricket
11-03-20, 06:49 PM
I remember Election night here was really fun 4 years ago.
You should let Sexy Celebrity come back just for tonight to recapture the magic! ;)
Not tonight, he voted Biden:homealone:
matt72582
11-03-20, 07:14 PM
His salary is a drop in the bucket, but it's still a positive and it goes against what some people (not here) say about him doing this just for money. Not sure what you mean about the truth because I think they all tell lies. It does make me especially sick when Biden or Harris looks into the camera and says he called Mexicans rapists because they know damn well it's a lie and that it hurts the country. You want to question Trump's character, be my guest, but when they do that you better question their character as well.
What I mean is that this is a salesman's job being President.. As for Biden, I've never read a single word defending his record - they just say "He's not Trump" or mention something Trump did or said..
Truth doesn't matter, even when the media purposely tells a lie and then posting a small retraction or correction on the bottom of the page (online or newspaper). People believe first impressions, regardless of truth.
gandalf26
11-04-20, 03:51 AM
What's really shocking to me is the quality of the candidates that the Democrats have fielded, or who have won the nomination. Deeply unpopular Hilary(pedophiles wife) and now dementia Joe, who can't introduce his relatives properly. I cannot believe Sanders didn't win the nomination, TWICE. Time for new younger faces to lead (AOC).
America just seems like a total disaster atm, so polarised, more so than ever before. Trump losing a tight race or Biden winning a tight victory both seem likely to be disastrous.
This is getting embarrassing...
Dog Star Man
11-04-20, 07:04 AM
Another horrible, horrible, year for politics IMHO... I (very regrettably) voted Biden, but it's like a stench on me now that no matter how many times I take a shower or how hard I wash myself... I continue to feel so very ugly about it. Especially since, (as a registered Libertarian), I really loved Jo Jorgensen this year and thought as a candidate for the party she was much better than Gary Johnson of the last election, who I thought was rather unstable... but... knowing she stood zero chance of winning, and so desperately wanting Trump out, like many Americans I sacrificed all my moral and political values at the polls this year... but truly... if Trump wins or if Biden wins. I really don't care. American politics continue to become more divided and instead of "agree to disagree" debates, the "conversations" become screaming matches and the victor goes to "who slung the most mud at the other opponent." I recently watched the first televised presidential debate, (Kennedy vs. Nixon), say what you will about either of these candidates, but they behave, debate, and argue intelligibly, treat one another with respect, and act their age/like adults. None of which I really see in todays political realm, from any party. I'm just really done with it. Call my sentiments and opinions about all this jaded, but this is all the more reason for me to stay apolitical. I just don't give a damn anymore.
Daniel M
11-04-20, 07:50 AM
To me what Trump is doing can't be defended, "to me we've already won the election" and talking about fraud. Not even anything specific, he seems to just be unhappy that in some states legitimate ballots are counted last in a different order? Then he's scrambling for every vote to be counted in Arizona. It just seems absolutely outrageous to me that he says these things and that people support the statements and spread his message.
At least he should have decency to wait and see who is said to have won before declaring it was a fraud if it's not him. lol
Ultraviolence
11-04-20, 08:39 AM
Hope it is Trump. Not a fan of Biden - After what he said about Amazon in one of the debates, I just don't like him at all. Who the guy think he is to try to control Amazon? Brazil is not your baby.
TheUsualSuspect
11-04-20, 11:13 AM
Trump called it fraud last election...then he won. He's just adding fuel to the fire that he knows will erupt.
I expect more violence in the states.
Daniel M
11-04-20, 11:21 AM
Trump called it fraud last election...then he won. He's just adding fuel to the fire that he knows will erupt.
I expect more violence in the states.
Yeah it's clearly him playing on people's lack of understanding of how the counting process works.
Early on in the night Biden took leads in a lot of states like Ohio, North Carolina, even Texas because of early mail-in voting which was counted first then Trump was happy to overtake them once his in-person voting arrived.
Now it's the other way round, with states like MI, WI, PA counting mail-in last he's used it as an opportunity to deliberately falsely conflate counting legitimate votes with accepting after-deadline votes which is not what's happening.
I'm glad to see that a lot of Republicans have distanced themself from this and not gone along with it. As you say the bigger concern is how it goes down with supporters.
John McClane
11-04-20, 11:21 AM
Welcome to the post-truth era. Sugar is good.
Biden is winning: 270vs.268
gandalf26
11-04-20, 11:35 AM
Yeah it's clearly him playing on people's lack of understanding of how the counting process works.
Early on in the night Biden took leads in a lot of states like Ohio, North Carolina, even Texas because of early mail-in voting which was counted first then Trump was happy to overtake them once his in-person voting arrived.
Now it's the other way round, with states like MI, WI, PA counting mail-in last he's used it as an opportunity to deliberately falsely conflate counting legitimate votes with accepting after-deadline votes which is not what's happening.
I'm glad to see that a lot of Republicans have distanced themself from this and not gone along with it. As you say the bigger concern is how it goes down with supporters.
Giving Trump a lot of credit for knowing how voting works aren't you? :)
Giving Trump a lot of credit for knowing how voting works aren't you? :)
I wouldn't say he knows how it works. I believe it's more a distraction and just pushing through his preference because he seems the personality type to demand what he expects and usually gets it with little pushback from those around him. I also feel that's why he has held so many rallies as his base enables that attitude and cheers it on. I feel like that's a factor in how some other people perceive him. The dude is a bulldozer without much consideration on what he affects.
Have any of you worked for/with someone like that? It's a rollercoaster ride.
Chypmunk
11-04-20, 12:08 PM
Have any of you worked for/with someone like that? It's a rollercoaster ride.
I once worked with a bloke that owned a bulldozer. Does that count?
cricket
11-04-20, 12:17 PM
I'd be surprised if there was violence from the Trump voters. It certainly wouldn't be that way the other way around, one of the reasons I voted the way I did.
Sorry, long night/distracted. I'm on 4.5 hours sleep. :laugh:
I'm not sure how I'd define filthy rich to be honest with you. Maybe worth over 100mil? Idk, but that's also not the only qualification I'm talking about. There's also past retirement age, taking a difficult job, and doing it for personal glory, and that last part comes with the assumption that we know who's doing it for personal glory which is not an assumption I'm willing to make.
That number sounds reasonable to me.
Anyway, a lot of people seem to think if they had money they'd be happy to just enjoy it, and in some cases I'm sure that's true. But when we observe very very rich people they don't seem to be content with that. They generally seem to think about what's next. Which makes sense, that's a very human thing. I also think the type of person who becomes super wealthy is also not the kind of person to simply enjoy it. They think about legacy, power, respect, stuff like that. Trump certainly did a lot of things after being very wealthy that seem to have no purpose other than fame/notoriety.
At a time when we have to be skeptical of what we hear or read, do we really know that he's not doing the tough parts?
Well, if he was, what would you expect to see? You'd expect to see consistent responses across time. You'd expect to see competence, speed, and transparency in regards to logistical and public health questions. But we're not seeing that. We're seeing the opposite: we're seeing public arguments with health officials, we're seeing lag between reported data and political action to combat virus spread, and we're seeing wildly inconsistent statements about how serious it is, long past the point where there should be any doubt.
So I admit I cannot prove that he's disinterested in boring managerial stuff. I can only note how much time he verifiably spends on Twitter, holding rallies, and talking about media coverage, and how little evidence of that kind of boring diligence we see manifested. Heck, treat it like a math problem if you want: look at how often he does the big splashy public things and count how many hours are left in the day to do the boring stuff. It ain't much. Without even getting into the many, many White House testimonials.
I think saying the job is more difficult than he thought is an honest and normal thing to say. If he didn't know then, he certainly knows now and he's still trying for a second term.
Well, not if he insulates himself by just not doing most of it. Regardless, even if he had no idea what he was getting into, I'm still not sure it would be selfless to know and run again, given that anyone (let alone someone constantly talking about being a winner) would also care very much about the indignity of losing reelection.
Honestly, it's very foreign to me to think of any President as if they're doing us some kind of favor by becoming the most powerful person in the world. There are massive financial benefits post-Presidency, too, that are far more significant than the salary itself. I'm kinda disgusted with the idea (not with you, just the concept) that we owe our leaders some kind of additional gratitude beyond all the power and fame and wealth they receive. They're there to serve us, and I find it totally backwards when any public servant acts like they're sacrificing for us by assuming power.
Do you think he's accomplished much as President compared to Presidents of the past?
I'd need to ask a lot of follow-ups to answer this properly. For example, a President can "accomplish" something I don't think was good, but was still something they set out to do, and did. But in terms of sheer managerial efficiency this has been an historically bad Presidency. Just run down the list of campaign promises and note how few have come to pass.
Sure, but we still don't know that he doesn't put in a lot of work.
Technically, we cannot know it, we can only look at the surrounding facts. More to the point, though, is that just sort of seeming to move around a lot is not really evidence that he does, either.
I don't feel I'm speculating that he wants to help the country; I'm going by the fact that he's said that. From there, I'm not saying I believe him, I'm saying it's reasonable to think there could be some truth to it.
Oh, sure. But I think there's some truth to that for anyone. I'm not one of those people who think he's trying to destroy anything or hates America. I'm willing to assume mostly good intentions. But he's a grown man, and grown people are responsible for whether they behave in a way that makes their goals possible. If somebody just wants to help but indulges all their worst habits and petty grievances, and it gets in the way, then that's on them. You don't really "want" something if you're not willing to change and sacrifice to get it.
Trump is on the record many, many times responding to questions by simply talking about whether someone was "nice" or "mean" to him. It's demonstrably how he orients around pretty much everything, unfortunately. That makes him less comically evil than a lot of critics suggest, but it also isn't at all consistent with selflessness.
Fair enough when it comes to our conversation.
:up:
I'd be surprised if there was violence from the Trump voters. It certainly wouldn't be that way the other way around, one of the reasons I voted the way I did.
To be fair, I think that may be more in line with what Yoda mentioned about what we see around us. I mean, where I live in rural Alabama people have been stock-piling munitions and buying rifles and pistols that there's hardly any stock left. Kids I went to high school with are sharing militia group information and literally hoping for conflict, at least in their posts. A few of them have posted that if Biden wins there will be a civil war in retaliation, arguing tactical details I don't care to repeat.
Not that I take Facebook chatter very seriously, but that side wants violence too and are fanning flames as well. Different regions of the country, different ideals, different media coverage. The general mindset of most of the people here is one of the reasons I voted the way I did.
Just sayin' it's never one size fits all or that generalizations really ever apply across the board.
John McClane
11-04-20, 12:39 PM
I think it is safe to say that a lot of the "chatter" about violence is just that: chatter. It is the politicization of frustration, and I would go so far to say that one side, whilst extremely vocal in their calls for violence, would only resort to it as a response to sparks from the opposing side. That's just how I see things where I am. I'm in a state that went Biden but is overwhelming Trump land outside of the major cities, and we haven't had any unrest to speak of. Even tho people are rightly pissed that the urban cities up north have leaned our state blue.
I think it is safe to say that a lot of the "chatter" about violence is just that: chatter. It is the politicization of frustration, and I would go so far to say that one side, whilst extremely vocal in their calls for violence, would only resort to it as a response to sparks from the opposing side. That's just how I see things where I am. I'm in a state that went Biden but is overwhelming Trump land outside of the major cities, and we haven't had any unrest to speak of. Even tho people are rightly pissed that the urban cities up north have leaned our state blue.
I can agree with all of that.
that side wants violence too and are fanning flames as well.
I find far right might start with harmless and apparently reasonable arguments, but their ultimate goals are draconian. It's a slippery slope with them. Once one of their goals is realised, they have ready new and more extreme goal to seek. If they talk long enough and you listen long enough, they reveal their true ultimate goals which aren't pretty. It puts their starting position into perspective.
I'm not saying Trump is far right.
WrinkledMind
11-04-20, 12:52 PM
I find far right might start with harmless and apparently reasonable arguments, but their ultimate goals are draconian. It's a slippery slope with them. Once one of their goals is realised, they have ready new and more extreme goal to seek. If they talk long enough and you listen long enough, they reveal their true ultimate goals which aren't pretty. It puts their starting position into perspective.
I'm not saying Trump is far right.
Mao, Stalin, etc. disagree.
Closer home to me, we have two states here that have seen or see Communist leaders winning elections. And they follow the same exact pattern. Infact the current leader of the state of Kerala once publically described the best way to bury a dead body(involved a sack and salt), and nobody on the left was offended because he is fellow comrade.
Anyways, extreme right or extreme left follow the same pattern.
Alright, I asked nicely a few times that people not start in with sweeping unkind generalizations, and we keep going past that line. Gonna have to ask for this to be scaled back majorly, or I'll have to close the thread.
Not trying to come down on anyone, I know this is intense and people feel strongly. That's precisely why we need to be careful. :)
This!
Once again we find ourselves with a couple of pretty rough choices. That said, out of the two, I think Trump is much more equipped to handle the position at this point in time. Biden is a shade of what he once was, and I see clear signs of cognitive decline. In fact, I don't think the Democrat's plan is to keep Biden in place at all. Pelosi's push to form the committee that will analyze the President's ability to lead seems like she is hedging her bets, preparing to have Kamala invoke the statute to begin the process to take Biden out, after which Harris would be installed.
Trump, for better or for worse, is currently a towering figure in our culture, completely dominating the mentality of the fanatical fringes on both sides of the political spectrum. TDS, which is Trump Derangement Syndrome on the left, and Trump Devotion Syndrome on the right, has most of the public discourse concerning Trump boiling over constantly. He dominates all the media outlets, infests both real and virtual culture around the globe, and all the while, he swaggers through everyone's lives like the proverbial bull in the China shop without ever stopping to contemplate the effects of his presence, except to perhaps stop for a few seconds to fix his coiffure in the mirror.
So, on one hand, we have a bell-rung old codger, with a really rough record on policy, who lurches and putters around, occasionally forgetting where he is, and on the other hand, we have a brash blowhard that constantly dives head first into situations and manages to come out looking like he knew what he was doing all along (with a few obvious and dire exceptions, such as COVID), even though it's pretty clear he doesn't.
I dunno, for me, it's a fairly easy call, as I am pretty firmly planted in that odd space between libertarian, center right, so it's a vote for Trump for me, even if I will wince a bit when I pull the level. Actually, i already pulled the lever. That said, I am by no means dressed up in MAGA gear, parading around extoling my devotion to the guy.
Lastly - this thread will be locked, and probably soon. Our patience with these threads has worn pretty thin. We aren't quite zero tolerance, but we are getting there! ;) So, fair warning: at the first sign of a fire starting, this will probably be closed.
Prediction:
Trump!
So a person having an Indian mother has some chance of becoming US president according to you . Her name Kamala is also Indian , meaning lotus flower which is election symbol of India's hindu nationalist party--BJP .
But most people in India are not in favour of her or Biden because Trump is more likely to help India to combat the Chinese armed forces camped threateningly against India in the himalayas .
Equilibrium
11-04-20, 01:37 PM
Trump called it fraud last election...then he won. He's just adding fuel to the fire that he knows will erupt.
I expect more violence in the states.
I don't think so. Its been pretty tame so far.
Stirchley
11-04-20, 02:40 PM
The question was who you thought would win, not even who you wanted to, let alone the many reasons you want them to.
Amazing how many posters never answered my very simple question.
Yoda said only yes or no responses.
Don’t think he said that. He said please respond to my OP with the name of who you think will be president.
To me, he appears busier than presidents of the past. He always seems to be on the go and I don't recall him taking vacations like others.
Seeming to be “on the go” doesn’t necessarily mean he’s actually doing something. He tweets a heck of a lot, I will give him that.
His salary is a drop in the bucket
Unsure what you are saying. 400k is a drop in the bucket or it’s a drop in the bucket as a donation?
Alright, I asked nicely a few times that people not start in with sweeping unkind generalizations, and we keep going past that line. Gonna have to ask for this to be scaled back majorly, or I'll have to close the thread.
Please close the thread when we have a definitive answer as to who our next president will be. I sincerely hope that announcement will be today. By that time we surely will have discussed this to death. :)
cricket
11-04-20, 02:41 PM
To be fair, I think that may be more in line with what Yoda mentioned about what we see around us. I mean, where I live in rural Alabama people have been stock-piling munitions and buying rifles and pistols that there's hardly any stock left. Kids I went to high school with are sharing militia group information and literally hoping for conflict, at least in their posts. A few of them have posted that if Biden wins there will be a civil war in retaliation, arguing tactical details I don't care to repeat.
Not that I take Facebook chatter very seriously, but that side wants violence too and are fanning flames as well. Different regions of the country, different ideals, different media coverage. The general mindset of most of the people here is one of the reasons I voted the way I did.
Just sayin' it's never one size fits all or that generalizations really ever apply across the board.
I'll believe it when I see it.
Again, Biden is winning. He's winning in Nevada and he's flipping Arizona, Wisconsin and Michigan. He may even win in Pennsylvania, but that's not necessary.
Arizona slightly in dispute, some vote reporting issues mean there might be more uncounted ballots there. Still lean Biden but not as sure as before that news.
But yes, Biden's in a very strong position right now, pretty much any remaining significant state likely does it. But it'll still be awhile, lot to count.
honeykid
11-04-20, 02:51 PM
Please close the thread when we have a definitive answer as to who our next president will be.
So another 5-6 months of this then? Or just until Trump is announced President? Or will that be the same thing?
Seriously though, the only thing about all this which is annoying me here in the UK is the 'faux' outrage/surprise about what Trump has said and done. For months now I've heard the talking heads on TV talk about how they thought Trump would do this. Probably because the man himself has spent months saying he'd do this. And now I'm supposed to be surprised that he's calling fraud and talking about a stolen election?
To answer the question. Next president? Trump.
rauldc14
11-04-20, 02:51 PM
Who knew Kamala would be the first woman president
Heh. Definitely plausible, but it won't surprise me if Biden lives through eight years or (just as likely?) decides to just serve the one term, too.
Dog Star Man
11-04-20, 03:19 PM
I'm taking the approach that if I don't watch the results the band-aid that is this election year will seem like a quick tear off instead of a slow and grueling "peel" process. Just ignore it, let tomorrow come, get it over with, have me scream and then live with the fresh wound for yet another four years...
Who knew Kamala would be the first woman president
68712
So a person having an Indian mother has some chance of becoming US president according to you . Her name Kamala is also Indian , meaning lotus flower which is election symbol of India's hindu nationalist party--BJP .
But most people in India are not in favour of her or Biden because Trump is more likely to help India to combat the Chinese armed forces camped threateningly against India in the himalayas .
A chance, sure. Just understand this was just an observation on the situation, and not any sort of statement of my position/hopes personally.
Citizen Rules
11-04-20, 04:43 PM
Who knew Kamala would be the first woman presidentI'd vote for her and I hope she does become the first woman president.
gandalf26
11-04-20, 04:54 PM
It seems to me as an outsider that AOC is on course to be a female President (first or not), though I believe she couldn't run until 2028 due to her young age, not sure how correct that is. Something about being 35 to be President or start a campaign.
matt72582
11-04-20, 04:57 PM
I think Trump is pulling the fraud card because he doesn't want history to see someone like Joe Biden beat him fair and square. He doesn't want any blame. I would also hate being the guy who lost to Joe Biden, just like Hillary pulled her garbage, because she'll go down in history as losing to Trump (and Obama).
The few people I talk with (in person and online) seem to vote against their interests (what THEY say matters). I wanted Trump (who I disliked more before he became President) to win for reasons I probably shouldn't mention seeing the apprehension of keeping this thread going. Anyway, it would be too long to read. And no, I'm not a moderate or a Leninist accelerationist.
Citizen Rules
11-04-20, 05:03 PM
...I wanted Trump (who I disliked more before he became President) to win for reasons I probably shouldn't mention...I think I know your reason: your upset that Bernie Sanders didn't get the Democratic nom last time around, so you blame the Democrats and embrace Trump out of sour grapes. Is that about right?
Citizen Rules
11-04-20, 05:04 PM
It seems to me as an outsider that AOC is on course to be a female President (first or not), though I believe she couldn't run until 2028 due to her young age, not sure how correct that is. Something about being 35 to be President or start a campaign.AOC, I don't know if that's a person's initials or slang for something, what does it mean?
gandalf26
11-04-20, 05:09 PM
AOC, I don't know if that's a person's initials or slang for something, what does it mean?
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez
matt72582
11-04-20, 05:27 PM
I think I know your reason: your upset that Bernie Sanders didn't get the Democratic nom last time around, so you blame the Democrats and embrace Trump out of sour grapes. Is that about right?
Not at all, but yes, I would have preferred Bernie over all of them, and didn't like the collusion of the DNC, but if Bernie wasn't man enough to fight (after accepting being cheated in 2016, then he isn't the man for the job).. I would never support Pence or any other Republican, and never voted for one, and haven't voted since 2008 (despite working on campaigns). I'll explain it, and I won't attack anyone, so I hope this is cool.
When it comes to the important issues, Biden is more conservative. Biden supported every single war, Trump started none. One pushed NAFTA, one got rid of it. Biden wrote The Crime Bill, Trump wrote Criminal Justice Reform, Prison Reform, HBCU funding, etc.. Biden supported the repeal of Glass-Steagull, Telecommunications Act, The Patriot Act.
I'm a left-winger who hates political correctness, and believes identify politics is a right-winged trick to NOT talk about class, labor, and instead go on and on about social issues because they know you can't do anything about it. You can't legislate kindness and understanding.
To me, the biggest issue is war. The biggest moral cost, and the biggest financial cost. When Obama took us from two to seven wars, Democrats didn't say a thing, because they're chicken****, and the opposing side likes it (until something goes wrong). I know Fox is the most watched, but they are kind of anamoly. The other stations are Democrat (not liberal) with only one bias - financial. If/when Biden were to start proxy wars, sanctions, or actual wars (Iran, Venezuela, etc), the media won't pay attention to it, or water it down, and the millions of voters are influenced by this. Not everyone digs deep about what is happening like many of us.
Also, if Biden were to win, many people would go to sleep. With Trump, you have a kind of "check" on him. And he's been there for almost 4 years, and hasn't started any new war, and when he's tried to pull troops, both parties disabled him.
Tariffs were HATED by the Republicans, who thought the market could solve every problem. As soon as Trump imposed tariffs, suddenly they like them? His supporters certainly seem to. I'm sure some would prefer to stay silent to avoid being socially ostracized. It's the problem with every other group, which I think is the true enemy. Nothing wrong with alliances for certain issues, but I believe you trade your individuality when you join a group. As groups change, the people suddenly change? Now, Democrats hate tariffs? The two Democratic senators from Ohio were for them until Trump was for them.
Biden wrote The Crime Bill, Trump signed Criminal Justice Reform.. We know Biden's long right-winged record, especially when it comes to the important stuff. I can't stand Trump (even before he ran) for his greed, etc., but what differentiates him from someone like Biden or Clinton, is that they pretend to care for the entire world, etc.. Bull.
If Biden gets in, he'll taint the progress just by his name alone, alongside with FDR and JFK, thinking Biden's record is "the way", influencing younger or less educated people about politics.
I'm so glad good leftists don't spend too much time going after Republicans, because its not about "R" and/or "D", it's policy.. I read John Bolton's book, and he seems so scared that if Trump wins, he'll be really bad for "conservative Republicans", even going on to say Trump would do something "liberal stuff" for his own historical ego. Who cares! If the media were really "liberal", they could have bullied or use simple semantics into Medicare-4-All... Remember, during the GOP debate, Chris Wallace asked Trump about his constant support for single-payer. And Trump didn't shy away and said "It seems to work fine in Canada", so a great reporter would ask "So President Trump (kiss his butt, so what), you said single-payer worked fine, so when do you plan on signing a bill into law?"
I do want Trump to win, also, because despite my cynicism for the DNC, if they continue to lose with right-winged Corporate Democrats, they might pivot a tad.. In just 4 years, everyone running on the Democratic ticket pretend they were Bernie Sanders-lite. Platforms don't mean jack, but it might have enough influence to put this issue over the top and get it done, once and for all... And he'd be there for only 4 more years, and maybe in 2024, we could have a real progressive, or at least someone who isn't as far-right as Biden is.
For those who say it makes no difference, at least we'll have more entertainment from Trump than Biden, or Kamala's hypocritical laughter/disdain. Her record as a prosecutor should make every right-winger happy. She prosecuted black men for pot while she says (and probably lied) about doing it while listening to Snoopy Dog who didn't exist when she was in college. She's a phony, like Biden.. We all know Trump and knew him, and he doesn't apologize for it. The only guy Kamala didn't prosecute was Steve Mnuchin, who coincidentally (wink, wink) only gave one donation, which was to Kamala Harris. And who knows with Trump.. He won't have to pander, he doesn't owe the GOP anything (and has been going after RINOs), and did mention how single-payer seems to work fine when asked about it during the 1st GOP Debate when Wallace asked why he supported single-payer health care.
The media has been awful, and part of me wants them (and other deranged idiots who don't know jack about politics) to cry their guts out.
Twitter, Facebook, Google (and many others) censoring this Biden business dealing crack from the NY Post only makes me hate these people more... I spend way too much of my life discussing politics, and I want them to eat their words. I actually think more in the media wanted Trump to win because of ratings.
And entertainment. Even if the President is just a figurehead, I prefer to hear him say outlandish stuff, and just be a guy, a guy who reminds me of every New Yorker I know.. And he's more representative of the people. Biden keeps saying "This is not who we are" to which I can only say, "C'mon man!".
I like someone who is defiant even if he's full of it. He's more of a rebel than Biden. If Trump ran as a Democrat, all the people barking at him would be saying how amazing he is.
I'm stealing a quote from Mort Sahl, but I hate the Republicans for who they are, and I hate the Democrats for who they are not. All the complaining about Trump (never issues, usually personality) makes me reconsider. Not contrarian; just a rebel at heart. I will miss hearing him go after the mainstream media which is so fake, corrupt, and just chicken, using the currency of the moment, just like those Lincoln Log mercenaries.
I also think without the mail-in ballots, Trump would have won bigly. The Democrats obviously don't care about COVID.. Protesting for example, which I support always (regardless of who - it's better than apathy), but maybe not during a pandemic. And if you protest, you should have shouted for a stimulus check... or body-cams.. I don't believe it's organic at all. I saw so many groups try to co-opt their crap, and the minute they get a token, they go back to sleep and say "Ok, no more" as they reign in the drawbridge.
I applauded the "entertainers" who ripped W., but didn't say a word about Obama, and then found their fake testicles when Trump came in.. The NBA, Neil Young, etc etc..
You don't vote for someone and THEN wish they turn out alright - it hasn't happened in my lifetime. You use your vote (and as a bloc, since that's so chic) as leverage. If you keep voting for the evil of two lessers, why would they ever give you anything? Biden appealed to more of the GOP than progressives (if there really are any).. Lip service doesn't go far with me, and if AOC had any integrity, she would demand a "skinny" bill from Pelosi, but she wants to be a power-player I'm sure, but I liked her for about 10 minutes, along with Tlaib.. They eat their cake while everyone else starves, pretending Biden is going to save us.. Pelosi wouldn't impeach W. for lying us into multiple wars, but she impeached Trump over nothing, which I knew was baloney.. If he was an agent of Russia, why would she approve of all his budget increases?
And then for the Democrats to suddenly support the CIA and FBI? And W. Bush cronies? This is truly unbelievable. Because Trump made a few tweets? Schumer didn't even hide it as he told that Maddow "The CIA will screw you seven ways from Sunday" (or whatever that threat was). I didn't like Obama, but I didn't like the de-legitimacy (Kenya - give me a break) and so they doubled-down on Trump winning because of a few bots. Every time someone says "Russian", I ask if they changed their vote because of Russia - none.
Stirchley
11-04-20, 05:36 PM
It seems to me as an outsider that AOC is on course to be a female President (first or not), though I believe she couldn't run until 2028 due to her young age, not sure how correct that is. Something about being 35 to be President or start a campaign.
Yes, she did well in this election.
35 to run for president. Must have lived here for 14 years & must be native-born.
Citizen Rules
11-04-20, 05:42 PM
Thanks Matt! That's a lot to read, but I will read it and try to reply to some of it after I'm done with work. Just on a work break now.
AgrippinaX
11-04-20, 05:49 PM
AOC, I don't know if that's a person's initials or slang for something, what does it mean?
Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.
Edit: website acting odd when I’m on my phone, only seeing half the threads...
cricket
11-04-20, 05:57 PM
Not at all, but yes, I would have preferred Bernie over all of them, and didn't like the collusion of the DNC, but if Bernie wasn't man enough to fight (after accepting being cheated in 2016, then he isn't the man for the job).. I would never support Pence or any other Republican, and never voted for one, and haven't voted since 2008 (despite working on campaigns). I'll explain it, and I won't attack anyone, so I hope this is cool.
When it comes to the important issues, Biden is more conservative. Biden supported every single war, Trump started none. One pushed NAFTA, one got rid of it. Biden wrote The Crime Bill, Trump wrote Criminal Justice Reform, Prison Reform, HBCU funding, etc.. Biden supported the repeal of Glass-Steagull, Telecommunications Act, The Patriot Act.
I'm a left-winger who hates political correctness, and believes identify politics is a right-winged trick to NOT talk about class, labor, and instead go on and on about social issues because they know you can't do anything about it. You can't legislate kindness and understanding.
To me, the biggest issue is war. The biggest moral cost, and the biggest financial cost. When Obama took us from two to seven wars, Democrats didn't say a thing, because they're chicken****, and the opposing side likes it (until something goes wrong). I know Fox is the most watched, but they are kind of anamoly. The other stations are Democrat (not liberal) with only one bias - financial. If/when Biden were to start proxy wars, sanctions, or actual wars (Iran, Venezuela, etc), the media won't pay attention to it, or water it down, and the millions of voters are influenced by this. Not everyone digs deep about what is happening like many of us.
Also, if Biden were to win, many people would go to sleep. With Trump, you have a kind of "check" on him. And he's been there for almost 4 years, and hasn't started any new war, and when he's tried to pull troops, both parties disabled him.
Tariffs were HATED by the Republicans, who thought the market could solve every problem. As soon as Trump imposed tariffs, suddenly they like them? His supporters certainly seem to. I'm sure some would prefer to stay silent to avoid being socially ostracized. It's the problem with every other group, which I think is the true enemy. Nothing wrong with alliances for certain issues, but I believe you trade your individuality when you join a group. As groups change, the people suddenly change? Now, Democrats hate tariffs? The two Democratic senators from Ohio were for them until Trump was for them.
Biden wrote The Crime Bill, Trump signed Criminal Justice Reform.. We know Biden's long right-winged record, especially when it comes to the important stuff. I can't stand Trump (even before he ran) for his greed, etc., but what differentiates him from someone like Biden or Clinton, is that they pretend to care for the entire world, etc.. Bull.
If Biden gets in, he'll taint the progress just by his name alone, alongside with FDR and JFK, thinking Biden's record is "the way", influencing younger or less educated people about politics.
I'm so glad good leftists don't spend too much time going after Republicans, because its not about "R" and/or "D", it's policy.. I read John Bolton's book, and he seems so scared that if Trump wins, he'll be really bad for "conservative Republicans", even going on to say Trump would do something "liberal stuff" for his own historical ego. Who cares! If the media were really "liberal", they could have bullied or use simple semantics into Medicare-4-All... Remember, during the GOP debate, Chris Wallace asked Trump about his constant support for single-payer. And Trump didn't shy away and said "It seems to work fine in Canada", so a great reporter would ask "So President Trump (kiss his butt, so what), you said single-payer worked fine, so when do you plan on signing a bill into law?"
I do want Trump to win, also, because despite my cynicism for the DNC, if they continue to lose with right-winged Corporate Democrats, they might pivot a tad.. In just 4 years, everyone running on the Democratic ticket pretend they were Bernie Sanders-lite. Platforms don't mean jack, but it might have enough influence to put this issue over the top and get it done, once and for all... And he'd be there for only 4 more years, and maybe in 2024, we could have a real progressive, or at least someone who isn't as far-right as Biden is.
For those who say it makes no difference, at least we'll have more entertainment from Trump than Biden, or Kamala's hypocritical laughter/disdain. Her record as a prosecutor should make every right-winger happy. She prosecuted black men for pot while she says (and probably lied) about doing it while listening to Snoopy Dog who didn't exist when she was in college. She's a phony, like Biden.. We all know Trump and knew him, and he doesn't apologize for it. The only guy Kamala didn't prosecute was Steve Mnuchin, who coincidentally (wink, wink) only gave one donation, which was to Kamala Harris. And who knows with Trump.. He won't have to pander, he doesn't owe the GOP anything (and has been going after RINOs), and did mention how single-payer seems to work fine when asked about it during the 1st GOP Debate when Wallace asked why he supported single-payer health care.
The media has been awful, and part of me wants them (and other deranged idiots who don't know jack about politics) to cry their guts out.
Twitter, Facebook, Google (and many others) censoring this Biden business dealing crack from the NY Post only makes me hate these people more... I spend way too much of my life discussing politics, and I want them to eat their words. I actually think more in the media wanted Trump to win because of ratings.
And entertainment. Even if the President is just a figurehead, I prefer to hear him say outlandish stuff, and just be a guy, a guy who reminds me of every New Yorker I know.. And he's more representative of the people. Biden keeps saying "This is not who we are" to which I can only say, "C'mon man!".
I like someone who is defiant even if he's full of it. He's more of a rebel than Biden. If Trump ran as a Democrat, all the people barking at him would be saying how amazing he is.
I'm stealing a quote from Mort Sahl, but I hate the Republicans for who they are, and I hate the Democrats for who they are not. All the complaining about Trump (never issues, usually personality) makes me reconsider. Not contrarian; just a rebel at heart. I will miss hearing him go after the mainstream media which is so fake, corrupt, and just chicken, using the currency of the moment, just like those Lincoln Log mercenaries.
I also think without the mail-in ballots, Trump would have won bigly. The Democrats obviously don't care about COVID.. Protesting for example, which I support always (regardless of who - it's better than apathy), but maybe not during a pandemic. And if you protest, you should have shouted for a stimulus check... or body-cams.. I don't believe it's organic at all. I saw so many groups try to co-opt their crap, and the minute they get a token, they go back to sleep and say "Ok, no more" as they reign in the drawbridge.
I applauded the "entertainers" who ripped W., but didn't say a word about Obama, and then found their fake testicles when Trump came in.. The NBA, Neil Young, etc etc..
You don't vote for someone and THEN wish they turn out alright - it hasn't happened in my lifetime. You use your vote (and as a bloc, since that's so chic) as leverage. If you keep voting for the evil of two lessers, why would they ever give you anything? Biden appealed to more of the GOP than progressives (if there really are any).. Lip service doesn't go far with me, and if AOC had any integrity, she would demand a "skinny" bill from Pelosi, but she wants to be a power-player I'm sure, but I liked her for about 10 minutes, along with Tlaib.. They eat their cake while everyone else starves, pretending Biden is going to save us.. Pelosi wouldn't impeach W. for lying us into multiple wars, but she impeached Trump over nothing, which I knew was baloney.. If he was an agent of Russia, why would she approve of all his budget increases?
And then for the Democrats to suddenly support the CIA and FBI? And W. Bush cronies? This is truly unbelievable. Because Trump made a few tweets? Schumer didn't even hide it as he told that Maddow "The CIA will screw you seven ways from Sunday" (or whatever that threat was). I didn't like Obama, but I didn't like the de-legitimacy (Kenya - give me a break) and so they doubled-down on Trump winning because of a few bots. Every time someone says "Russian", I ask if they changed their vote because of Russia - none.
Loved reading this and it says a whole lot of what I feel. You don't like Trump but you can put it aside for the greater good. We need much more of that.
cricket
11-04-20, 06:05 PM
As for Trump fighting this, I don't blame him. The dems have tried to overturn the last election since it finished by getting him out of office. They constantly lie about things he's said. The early voting and mail in voting could all be legit, but it's a real bad look. They came up with it for Biden's benefit and it's coming through. With what I've seen the last 4 years, I wouldn't put anything past the Democrats, media, or pollsters. It all smells to me.
Stirchley
11-04-20, 06:13 PM
As for Trump fighting this, I don't blame him. The dems have tried to overturn the last election since it finished by getting him out of office. They constantly lie about things he's said.
Seems to me it’s the other way around. (Emphasis added)
cricket
11-04-20, 06:23 PM
Obviously this election is very tight. Who do people think would have won had the media been honest this entire time? For Trump, not constantly saying he called Mexicans rapists, fine people was referring to white supremacists, etc. On the other side, at least looking into the Biden family corruption story instead of covering it up, talking about Kamala putting all those black men in prison for non violent marijuana offenses while she was smoking marijuana, the fact that Kamala attacked Biden during the primary for his voting record on segregation and that she believed his accuser, Biden's relationship with Robert Byrd, racial/racist things he's said, etc. If the media, including social media, was honest and equal in their treatment of both parties, what would have happened? For me it's an easy answer and one of the things I'm most disgusted with.
cricket
11-04-20, 06:25 PM
Seems to me it’s the other way around. (Emphasis added)
What are you talking about? What about the racial stuff they've been lying about for the last four years? On 60 minutes Kamala said he called Mexicans rapists. A couple of days ago Biden said the same thing. Kamala said a couple of days ago he called the coronavirus a hoax. This has been a constant for the last four years. That's not OK.
I think she means that if you don't like lying, that's not gonna lead you to Trump, who's obviously done an incredible amount of it.
John McClane
11-04-20, 06:34 PM
I have never been one to look to politicians for truth. That’s like looking to a burglar for security advice.
cricket
11-04-20, 06:37 PM
I think she means that if you don't like lying, that's not gonna lead you to Trump, who's obviously done an incredible amount of it.
Sure I think all politicians lie, and I also think it's necessary sometimes. I certainly don't listen to Trump and take it as gospel. I just think it's another level when you start attacking someone's character by making things up.
Obviously this election is very tight. Who do people think would have won had the media been honest this entire time?
https://media1.tenor.com/images/f4ec1bc87660ca6c3c6bd160aa03241f/tenor.gif?itemid=10971235
For Trump, not constantly saying he called Mexicans rapists, fine people was referring to white supremacists, etc.
Well yes the racism is an issue but if the Media and people like you were honest the bigger issue is what he's said and what he's done to people that don't support. He's the president of the United States not the president of those that voted for him. People have died during this pandemic because of his actions.
On the other side, at least looking into the Biden family corruption story instead of covering it up,
Y'know I keep hearing about the corruption but I haven't seen the specifics this is Bengazi all over again. If you have something concrete share...but you don't. And quite frankly too many of Trumps associates have gone to jail for specific crimes...bribery, child pornography, witness tampering etc.
talking about Kamala putting all those black men in prison for non violent marijuana offenses while she was smoking marijuana, the fact that Kamala attacked Biden during the primary for his voting record on segregation and that she believed his accuser,
I think you have certain logistical issues with that statement...she's a prosecutor she has a job to do...she was running against Biden and Reade came out...she's not going to defend her competition. With that said Reade was clearly a low rent scam artist which is more than we can say for all 26 of Trumps accusers.
Biden's relationship with Robert Byrd, racial/racist things he's said, etc. If the media, including social media, was honest and equal in their treatment of both parties, what would have happened? For me it's an easy answer and one of the things I'm most disgusted with.
The Byrd case is fascinating because Byrd did turn against the KKK(which was a member of for a year in 1942) y;know who else mourned Byrd...the NAACP
https://www.rttnews.com/1346815/naacp-mourns-the-passing-of-senator-byrd.aspx
For me it's really simple...I might die in the next few years because of Trumps presidency and Supreme Court
John McClane
11-04-20, 06:43 PM
I’m gunna be bad for one second.
What do you call a politician with a soul? A fraud! 😅
Captain Steel
11-04-20, 06:44 PM
The fix is in.
The fix began 4 years ago when radical Leftist Democrats, pretty much in unison, OPENLY and PROUDLY told us how they would do anything - ANYTHING - to get Trump out of the White House...
(And we all witnessed all they attempted - everything from hoaxes, to fake dossiers, to illegal FISA court manipulation, to spying, to slandering Supreme Court nominees with dubious accusations, questionable accusers, reading "parodies" into evidence, mislabeling photographs, fraudulently publishing misleading magazine covers, intimidating witnesses, throwing out due process, misquoting, taking statements out of context, intentionally false headlines - later retracted with none of the fanfare the were originally reported with, changing definitions of "bribery" and "extortion," to politicizing a pandemic, and a thousand other attempts to impugn and impeach).
matt72582
11-04-20, 06:48 PM
Obviously this election is very tight. Who do people think would have If the media, including social media, was honest and equal in their treatment of both parties, what would have happened? For me it's an easy answer and one of the things I'm most disgusted with.
The media will never be completely honest because they have a financial bias. It has a huge influence, otherwise campaigns wouldn't spend billions on advertising (I'd add social media, what they include, what they don't, and their double-standards). I'd stick to legal issues brought up.
-Ballots in garbage, etc..
-Poll watchers weren't able to see the ballot themselves. Were they postmarked in time? Were they signed?
-Videos passing collateral material
-3 x 5 posters at locations that say "Vote for (passing out flyers)
-People at the polls wearing Biden-Harris face-masks
I wish this was over, but I think it's more important to get it right instead of being expedient because Matt can't sleep. The next four years will only get worse in terms of division between people.
60 years later, even mainstream news talk about JFK winning because of the dead voters in Cook County. Do we want future generations to know this election was stolen? People are still angry over the 2000 election.
cricket
11-04-20, 06:59 PM
Well yes the racism is an issue but if the Media and people like you were honest the bigger issue is what he's said and what he's done to people that don't support. He's the president of the United States not the president of those that voted for him. People have died during this pandemic because of his actions.
Not sure what you mean by the first part. As far as the pandemic, I'm sure he could have handled it better, so could have a lot of people. It's a global problem, and a problem the U.S. was particularly susceptible to regardless of who was in charge. The previous administration handled their pandemic just as poorly I would say. I don't like blaming people for deaths from a virus, but I'll be interested to see how many lives an early vaccine saves.
Y'know I keep hearing about the corruption but I haven't seen the specifics this is Bengazi all over again. If you have something concrete share...but you don't. And quite frankly too many of Trumps associates have gone to jail for specific crimes...bribery, child pornography, witness tampering etc.
That's not the point. The point is that the media is covering it up.
I think you have certain logistical issues with that statement...she's a prosecutor she has a job to do...she was running against Biden and Reade came out...she's not going to defend her competition. With that said Reade was clearly a low rent scam artist which is more than we can say for all 26 of Trumps accusers.
There should be fair and equal coverage and criticism if the media is honest. So was Kamala lying when she said she believed Reade?
The Byrd case is fascinating because Byrd did turn against the KKK(which was a member of for a year in 1942) y;know who else mourned Byrd...the NAACP
https://www.rttnews.com/1346815/naacp-mourns-the-passing-of-senator-byrd.aspx
There's not many politicians relative to the population. It's my opinion there's no need or room for anyone who was in the Klan. Automatic disqualification.
For me it's really simple...I might die in the next few years because of Trumps presidency and Supreme Court
You'll be fine.
Daniel M
11-04-20, 07:00 PM
Obviously this election is very tight. Who do people think would have won had the media been honest this entire time? For Trump, not constantly saying he called Mexicans rapists, fine people was referring to white supremacists, etc. On the other side, at least looking into the Biden family corruption story instead of covering it up,
The stuff like "Mexican rapists" from what I have seen is common on both sides, things taken out of context or changed slightly. Trump has made many many false quotes and made things up, like recently off the top of my head talking about Biden and the super predators, honorable discharge lie, and a whole host of policy stuff trying to portray Biden as a radical extremist - I know this is subjective but most of Trump's stuff seems to rely on false quotes.
talking about Kamala putting all those black men in prison for non violent marijuana offenses while she was smoking marijuana, the fact that Kamala attacked Biden during the primary for his voting record on segregation and that she believed his accuser, Biden's relationship with Robert Byrd, racial/racist things he's said, etc. If the media, including social media, was honest and equal in their treatment of both parties, what would have happened? For me it's an easy answer and one of the things I'm most disgusted with.
The problem is with getting an honest, open or free media, is that what people mean by that is to achieve some sort of equality. How do you do that?
What Republicans seem to be proposing is a regulation of tech companies and media to force them to be equal and fair, something which is highly subjective.
My understanding of the free market and free speech is that these companies can say what they want (providing they don't break other laws) and then it's up to people whether they listen to it, or start an alternative platform, or so on. People are free to consume and listen to what they want. Your opinions of Trump and the media is very subjective and one I would personally disagree with, although you're entitled to it. That's why I oppose regulation of these tech companies. Any attempt to regulate removes freedoms, not increases them. You have the state telling them how they should manage their own private businesses/services. Freedom of speech/expression should not include the freedom to do what you want in the realm of someone else's privately controlled service you've agreed to use/consume. State intervention here for me is a scary thing, and starts to (ironically) go down the line of countries like China.
cricket
11-04-20, 07:02 PM
The media will never be completely honest because they have a financial bias. It has a huge influence, otherwise campaigns wouldn't spend billions on advertising (I'd add social media, what they include, what they don't, and their double-standards). I'd stick to legal issues brought up.
-Ballots in garbage, etc..
-Poll watchers weren't able to see the ballot themselves. Were they postmarked in time? Were they signed?
-Videos passing collateral material
-3 x 5 posters at locations that say "Vote for (passing out flyers)
-People at the polls wearing Biden-Harris face-masks
I wish this was over, but I think it's more important to get it right instead of being expedient because Matt can't sleep. The next four years will only get worse in terms of division between people.
60 years later, even mainstream news talk about JFK winning because of the dead voters in Cook County. Do we want future generations to know this election was stolen? People are still angry over the 2000 election.
Man I'd be so cool if the people voted Trump out with nothing shady and everyone was just decent about it.
cricket
11-04-20, 07:08 PM
The stuff like "Mexican rapists" from what I have seen is common on both sides, things taken out of context or changed slightly. Trump has made many many false quotes and made things up, like recently off the top of my head talking about Biden and the super predators, honorable discharge lie, and a whole host of policy stuff trying to portray Biden as a radical extremist - I know this is subjective but most of Trump's stuff seems to rely on false quotes.
I think Trump lies plenty, but as far as the super predators thing, I think he's mixing it up rather than lying. I believe Hillary said that and Biden just use the word predators. Either way, I think when you're accusing someone of racism you better get it damn right or not say it. I'm not even sure use of the word predator was racist. If he used it to describe black men, then yes. If he used it to describe criminals, then no.
The problem is with getting an honest, open or free media, is that what people mean by that is to achieve some sort of equality. How do you do that?
What Republicans seem to be proposing is a regulation of tech companies and media to force them to be equal and fair, something which is highly subjective.
My understanding of the free market and free speech is that these companies can say what they want (providing they don't break other laws) and then it's up to people whether they listen to it, or start an alternative platform, or so on. People are free to consume and listen to what they want. Your opinions of Trump and the media is very subjective and one I would personally disagree with, although you're entitled to it. That's why I oppose regulation of these tech companies. Any attempt to regulate removes freedoms, not increases them. You have the state telling them how they should manage their own private businesses/services. Freedom of speech/expression should not include the freedom to do what you want in the realm of someone else's privately controlled service you've agreed to use/consume. State intervention here for me is a scary thing, and starts to (ironically) go down the line of countries like China.
Not to get into it because I suspect we actually agree on plenty. I think the problem with Twitter is that they censored some things, including a NY Post tweet on the Biden corruption story. The paper got their account locked because of it.
Daniel M
11-04-20, 07:17 PM
I think Trump lies plenty, but as far as the super predators thing, I think he's mixing it up rather than lying. I believe Hillary said that and Biden just use the word predators. Either way, I think when you're accusing someone of racism you better get it damn right or not say it. I'm not even sure use of the word predator was racist. If he used it to describe black men, then yes. If he used it to describe criminals, then no.
I actually think that a lot of attacks on Trump are a waste of time and don't like them myself. Personally, I prefer positive campaigning and stuff on policies. Unfortunately, I think that political discourse has reached a level now where the gloves have come off for both sides and we get a race to the bottom shouting extremes at each other. I think I have a more cynical perception of Trump than yourself and think he is clever in deliberately confusing things, when he makes mistakes I think they're calculated, but there's no point going back and forth discussing it.
Not to get into it because I suspect we actually agree on plenty. I think the problem with Twitter is that they censored some things, including a NY Post tweet on the Biden corruption story. The paper got their account locked because of it.
Yeah I do agree with you to an extent, personally, I think they're tweet warnings are good but I can understand the frustration that it doesn't always seem consistent. For example today you had some accounts with early projections/claims for states with votes left, which I didn't see censored too much. It's a difficult one though because although it feels disproportionate against Trump it's understandable that they're quick off the mark with one of their most prominent accounts. I did disagree with locking the NY Post account too. I understand some conservative frustration just don't agree with some of the proposed solutions, I'm guessing that their hopes are that threatening action will force Twitter and co into what they see as fairer policies.
Wyldesyde19
11-04-20, 07:20 PM
I foresee this thread getting closed....
Not sure what you mean by the first part. As far as the pandemic, I'm sure he could have handled it better, so could have a lot of people. It's a global problem, and a problem the U.S. was particularly susceptible to regardless of who was in charge. The previous administration handled their pandemic just as poorly I would say. I don't like blaming people for deaths from a virus, but I'll be interested to see how many lives an early vaccine saves.
No actually they did a far better job from both the H1N1 and Ebola.
That's not the point. The point is that the media is covering it up..
Covering up what...what is the crime. I could literally rattle off 40 specific crimes Trump has been involved in and give specifics not this nebulous oh theirs a laptop and Hunter got a job.
There should be fair and equal coverage and criticism if the media is honest. So was Kamala lying when she said she believed Reade?
Yes...I think everyone in that situation where you competition has an accuser come forward would believe the accussor. She doesn't believe her now...neither does Reades lawyer. See this is your problem you want this Biden laptop thing to go on but then in the next breath you bring up the Reade case. It's the responsibility of the media to vet scandals like this
There's not many politicians relative to the population. It's my opinion there's no need or room for anyone who was in the Klan. Automatic disqualification.
Constitution says otherwise we don't disqualify people from public service. NAACP supported Byrd you can't be more outraged than African American organizations.
You'll be fine.
I'm working two jobs during a pandemic with Obama care and I'm immunocompromized with Diabetes. I got a 10% of dying in the next two years if I lose coverage that number will go up. Pretty good chance I'm going to die in my 40's.
Citizen Rules
11-04-20, 07:41 PM
I foresee this thread getting closed....It would probably be a good thing to close it before too much bad blood is spilled. Nobody ever changes anyone else's opinion anyway, and all that's achieved is a bunch of escalating rhetoric and self-dreamed narratives, creating further division in a movie board. Movies are fun, politics suck!
cricket
11-04-20, 07:51 PM
It would probably be a good thing to close it before too much bad blood is spilled. Nobody ever changes anyone else's opinion anyway, and all that's achieved is a bunch of escalating rhetoric and self-dreamed narratives, creating further division in a movie board. Movies are fun, politics suck!
I don't see anybody mad at anybody.
Equilibrium
11-04-20, 07:56 PM
AOC, I don't know if that's a person's initials or slang for something, what does it mean?
Congresswoman Cortez.
Equilibrium
11-04-20, 07:58 PM
I foresee this thread getting closed....
And why do you foresee that? The thread is full of useful discourse. No one is insulting anyone and things are civil (for now).
cricket
11-04-20, 08:03 PM
No actually they did a far better job from both the H1N1 and Ebola.
Thankfully it wasn't as deadly but 60 million got swine flu in a year. I'm wondering what you think they did that constitutes a better job. The documentary "Totally Under Control" is liberal propaganda, but there was one unbiased point in the whole movie, that the Obama administration handled it poorly and were unprepared. Decent movie btw I think you'd like it.
Covering up what...what is the crime. I could literally rattle off 40 specific crimes Trump has been involved in and give specifics not this nebulous oh theirs a laptop and Hunter got a job.
His son is being investigated by the FBI and Joe's name is everywhere. Do you think the media would try to cover it up if it were Trump? If the media is covering up a possible crime by the Trump family please share.
Yes...I think everyone in that situation where you competition has an accuser come forward would believe the accussor. She doesn't believe her now...neither does Reades lawyer. See this is your problem you want this Biden laptop thing to go on but then in the next breath you bring up the Reade case. It's the responsibility of the media to vet scandals like this
So you believe Harris did believe Reade but then changed her mind. What made her change her mind? I think the public deserves to know.
Constitution says otherwise we don't disqualify people from public service. NAACP supported Byrd you can't be more outraged than African American organizations.
It's just my opinion. For all I know he paid people off. I don't think we need politicians who were in the Klan, and he also filibustered against civil rights years later. So if Trump's mentor was in the Klan it shouldn't and wouldn't be mentioned? If he called him a great man? No story if it were Trump?
I'm working two jobs during a pandemic with Obama care and I'm immunocompromized with Diabetes. I got a 10% of dying in the next two years if I lose coverage that number will go up. Pretty good chance I'm going to die in my 40's.
Think positive and we all say our prayers for you.
Equilibrium
11-04-20, 08:07 PM
Not at all, but yes, I would have preferred Bernie over all of them, and didn't like the collusion of the DNC, but if Bernie wasn't man enough to fight (after accepting being cheated in 2016, then he isn't the man for the job).. I would never support Pence or any other Republican, and never voted for one, and haven't voted since 2008 (despite working on campaigns). I'll explain it, and I won't attack anyone, so I hope this is cool.
When it comes to the important issues, Biden is more conservative. Biden supported every single war, Trump started none. One pushed NAFTA, one got rid of it. Biden wrote The Crime Bill, Trump wrote Criminal Justice Reform, Prison Reform, HBCU funding, etc.. Biden supported the repeal of Glass-Steagull, Telecommunications Act, The Patriot Act.
I'm a left-winger who hates political correctness, and believes identify politics is a right-winged trick to NOT talk about class, labor, and instead go on and on about social issues because they know you can't do anything about it. You can't legislate kindness and understanding.
To me, the biggest issue is war. The biggest moral cost, and the biggest financial cost. When Obama took us from two to seven wars, Democrats didn't say a thing, because they're chicken****, and the opposing side likes it (until something goes wrong). I know Fox is the most watched, but they are kind of anamoly. The other stations are Democrat (not liberal) with only one bias - financial. If/when Biden were to start proxy wars, sanctions, or actual wars (Iran, Venezuela, etc), the media won't pay attention to it, or water it down, and the millions of voters are influenced by this. Not everyone digs deep about what is happening like many of us.
Also, if Biden were to win, many people would go to sleep. With Trump, you have a kind of "check" on him. And he's been there for almost 4 years, and hasn't started any new war, and when he's tried to pull troops, both parties disabled him.
Tariffs were HATED by the Republicans, who thought the market could solve every problem. As soon as Trump imposed tariffs, suddenly they like them? His supporters certainly seem to. I'm sure some would prefer to stay silent to avoid being socially ostracized. It's the problem with every other group, which I think is the true enemy. Nothing wrong with alliances for certain issues, but I believe you trade your individuality when you join a group. As groups change, the people suddenly change? Now, Democrats hate tariffs? The two Democratic senators from Ohio were for them until Trump was for them.
Biden wrote The Crime Bill, Trump signed Criminal Justice Reform.. We know Biden's long right-winged record, especially when it comes to the important stuff. I can't stand Trump (even before he ran) for his greed, etc., but what differentiates him from someone like Biden or Clinton, is that they pretend to care for the entire world, etc.. Bull.
If Biden gets in, he'll taint the progress just by his name alone, alongside with FDR and JFK, thinking Biden's record is "the way", influencing younger or less educated people about politics.
I'm so glad good leftists don't spend too much time going after Republicans, because its not about "R" and/or "D", it's policy.. I read John Bolton's book, and he seems so scared that if Trump wins, he'll be really bad for "conservative Republicans", even going on to say Trump would do something "liberal stuff" for his own historical ego. Who cares! If the media were really "liberal", they could have bullied or use simple semantics into Medicare-4-All... Remember, during the GOP debate, Chris Wallace asked Trump about his constant support for single-payer. And Trump didn't shy away and said "It seems to work fine in Canada", so a great reporter would ask "So President Trump (kiss his butt, so what), you said single-payer worked fine, so when do you plan on signing a bill into law?"
I do want Trump to win, also, because despite my cynicism for the DNC, if they continue to lose with right-winged Corporate Democrats, they might pivot a tad.. In just 4 years, everyone running on the Democratic ticket pretend they were Bernie Sanders-lite. Platforms don't mean jack, but it might have enough influence to put this issue over the top and get it done, once and for all... And he'd be there for only 4 more years, and maybe in 2024, we could have a real progressive, or at least someone who isn't as far-right as Biden is.
For those who say it makes no difference, at least we'll have more entertainment from Trump than Biden, or Kamala's hypocritical laughter/disdain. Her record as a prosecutor should make every right-winger happy. She prosecuted black men for pot while she says (and probably lied) about doing it while listening to Snoopy Dog who didn't exist when she was in college. She's a phony, like Biden.. We all know Trump and knew him, and he doesn't apologize for it. The only guy Kamala didn't prosecute was Steve Mnuchin, who coincidentally (wink, wink) only gave one donation, which was to Kamala Harris. And who knows with Trump.. He won't have to pander, he doesn't owe the GOP anything (and has been going after RINOs), and did mention how single-payer seems to work fine when asked about it during the 1st GOP Debate when Wallace asked why he supported single-payer health care.
The media has been awful, and part of me wants them (and other deranged idiots who don't know jack about politics) to cry their guts out.
Twitter, Facebook, Google (and many others) censoring this Biden business dealing crack from the NY Post only makes me hate these people more... I spend way too much of my life discussing politics, and I want them to eat their words. I actually think more in the media wanted Trump to win because of ratings.
And entertainment. Even if the President is just a figurehead, I prefer to hear him say outlandish stuff, and just be a guy, a guy who reminds me of every New Yorker I know.. And he's more representative of the people. Biden keeps saying "This is not who we are" to which I can only say, "C'mon man!".
I like someone who is defiant even if he's full of it. He's more of a rebel than Biden. If Trump ran as a Democrat, all the people barking at him would be saying how amazing he is.
I'm stealing a quote from Mort Sahl, but I hate the Republicans for who they are, and I hate the Democrats for who they are not. All the complaining about Trump (never issues, usually personality) makes me reconsider. Not contrarian; just a rebel at heart. I will miss hearing him go after the mainstream media which is so fake, corrupt, and just chicken, using the currency of the moment, just like those Lincoln Log mercenaries.
I also think without the mail-in ballots, Trump would have won bigly. The Democrats obviously don't care about COVID.. Protesting for example, which I support always (regardless of who - it's better than apathy), but maybe not during a pandemic. And if you protest, you should have shouted for a stimulus check... or body-cams.. I don't believe it's organic at all. I saw so many groups try to co-opt their crap, and the minute they get a token, they go back to sleep and say "Ok, no more" as they reign in the drawbridge.
I applauded the "entertainers" who ripped W., but didn't say a word about Obama, and then found their fake testicles when Trump came in.. The NBA, Neil Young, etc etc..
You don't vote for someone and THEN wish they turn out alright - it hasn't happened in my lifetime. You use your vote (and as a bloc, since that's so chic) as leverage. If you keep voting for the evil of two lessers, why would they ever give you anything? Biden appealed to more of the GOP than progressives (if there really are any).. Lip service doesn't go far with me, and if AOC had any integrity, she would demand a "skinny" bill from Pelosi, but she wants to be a power-player I'm sure, but I liked her for about 10 minutes, along with Tlaib.. They eat their cake while everyone else starves, pretending Biden is going to save us.. Pelosi wouldn't impeach W. for lying us into multiple wars, but she impeached Trump over nothing, which I knew was baloney.. If he was an agent of Russia, why would she approve of all his budget increases?
And then for the Democrats to suddenly support the CIA and FBI? And W. Bush cronies? This is truly unbelievable. Because Trump made a few tweets? Schumer didn't even hide it as he told that Maddow "The CIA will screw you seven ways from Sunday" (or whatever that threat was). I didn't like Obama, but I didn't like the de-legitimacy (Kenya - give me a break) and so they doubled-down on Trump winning because of a few bots. Every time someone says "Russian", I ask if they changed their vote because of Russia - none.
Bernie was a good guy but he's ahead of his time. When he fought in the 80s to allow homosexuals to serve in the military people thought he was crazy, now it's normal and there are probably 39 other examples of this.
His plan for universal healthcare will happen one day in the US. But America is not ready. Too many people are convinced that progressive and socialist are the same thing (most of these people are ironically collecting monthly SOCIAL security checks from the government)
TL;DR Bernie was ahead of his time. Better to go for incremental changes.
Thankfully it wasn't as deadly but 60 million got swine flu in a year. I'm wondering what you think they did that constitutes a better job. The documentary "Totally Under Control" is liberal propaganda, but there was one unbiased point in the whole movie, that the Obama administration handled it poorly and were unprepared. Decent movie btw I think you'd like it.
Well then it wasn't as deadly...also seems like you are just glossing over how Obama handled the US ebola outbreak...interesting.
His son is being investigated by the FBI and Joe's name is everywhere. Do you think the media would try to cover it up if it were Trump? If the media is covering up a possible crime by the Trump family please share.
Well individuals in the White House say that Trump has been pushing for Biden investigations with foreign nations. Do I believe Trump would weaponize the FBI to go after a political rival? Well that's why we impeached him because he has a history of putting lives secondary to his own political ambitions. We;ve heard about the laptop I'd like to know the specific crimes because IIRC the FBI has been holding onto this information for a year now.
So you believe Harris did believe Reade but then changed her mind. What made her change her mind? I think the public deserves to know.
I think Harris hoped it was accurate and then the information came out and she changed her mind. I don't know why you believe someone running for president is supposed to have the tools to investigate a crime of a competitor.
It's just my opinion. For all I know he paid people off. I don't think we need politicians who were in the Klan, and he also filibustered against civil rights years later. So if Trump's mentor was in the Klan it shouldn't and wouldn't be mentioned? If he called him a great man? No story if it were Trump?
I think Biden's behavior towards a 70 year old Byrd is different from the 24 year old Byrd. I also don't know if Byrd was a mentor or if he was just a friendly colleague. But if you want to bring up mentors....
https://media.wnyc.org/i/800/0/c/85/1/roy_13rsHmN.jpg
How about we talk about Roy Cohn...
cricket
11-04-20, 08:39 PM
Well then it wasn't as deadly...also seems like you are just glossing over how Obama handled the US ebola outbreak...interesting.
That's not a time period I have a strong recollection of tbh. From what I just read 11 people in the U.S. got it? Not much of an outbreak here.
Well individuals in the White House say that Trump has been pushing for Biden investigations with foreign nations. Do I believe Trump would weaponize the FBI to go after a political rival? Well that's why we impeached him because he has a history of putting lives secondary to his own political ambitions. We;ve heard about the laptop I'd like to know the specific crimes because IIRC the FBI has been holding onto this information for a year now.
I'd like to know too. Where is the media when you need them?
I think Harris hoped it was accurate and then the information came out and she changed her mind. I don't know why you believe someone running for president is supposed to have the tools to investigate a crime of a competitor.
I think she lied and never believed her but wanted to pretend she was with the believe all women crowd. So she lied or changed her mind. She shouldn't be questioned about it?
I think Biden's behavior towards a 70 year old Byrd is different from the 24 year old Byrd. I also don't know if Byrd was a mentor or if he was just a friendly colleague. But if you want to bring up mentors....
I don't know either. Where is the media when you need them?
https://media.wnyc.org/i/800/0/c/85/1/roy_13rsHmN.jpg
How about we talk about Roy Cohn...
Never heard of that guy before I just looked him up. Now that does sound interesting.
Never heard of that guy before I just looked him up. Now that does sound interesting.
and when you finish with him...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c7/ba/37/c7ba3710fadab4025fedb04cf0099226.jpg
The media has actually been way to kind to Trump because they should be running these Trump associates and scandals on the daily.
cricket
11-04-20, 08:52 PM
and when you finish with him...
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/c7/ba/37/c7ba3710fadab4025fedb04cf0099226.jpg
The media has actually been way to kind to Trump because they should be running these Trump associates and scandals on the daily.
I think that is unfair
I think that is unfair
I don't...and you didn't know who Roy Cohn was. But let's move on from the pedophiles....
https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/104661419-GettyImages-633191646.jpg?v=1532563776&w=678&h=381
Steve Bannon - arrested for a scheme to make money off the wall
John Kelly - sits on a board and makes money off of those kids in cages
You want to go into Paul Manafort's crimes
https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/c_fill,g_auto,w_1200,h_675,ar_16:9/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F190627143633-01-paul-manafort-0627.jpg
Roger Stone
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/28/19/9094712-0-image-a-10_1548703754457.jpg
Rudy Giuliani
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/10/21/18/34674098-0-image-a-16_1603302201876.jpg
I mean the only words I can say when it comes to this election is
https://media.tenor.com/images/12c41ddfd5cfd983d84b9f016d381d0e/tenor.gif
cricket
11-04-20, 09:25 PM
I don't...and you didn't know who Roy Cohn was. But let's move on from the pedophiles....
https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/104661419-GettyImages-633191646.jpg?v=1532563776&w=678&h=381
Steve Bannon - arrested for a scheme to make money off the wall
John Kelly - sits on a board and makes money off of those kids in cages
You want to go into Paul Manafort's crimes
https://dynaimage.cdn.cnn.com/cnn/c_fill,g_auto,w_1200,h_675,ar_16:9/https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.cnn.com%2Fcnnnext%2Fdam%2Fassets%2F190627143633-01-paul-manafort-0627.jpg
Roger Stone
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2019/01/28/19/9094712-0-image-a-10_1548703754457.jpg
Rudy Giuliani
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2020/10/21/18/34674098-0-image-a-16_1603302201876.jpg
I mean the only words I can say when it comes to this election is
https://media.tenor.com/images/12c41ddfd5cfd983d84b9f016d381d0e/tenor.gif
Keep in mind that the post you were responding to was about equal treatment from the media, not about going into Trump's background, which definitely has question marks. As far as the pedophiles, I only know Epstein but will take your word on the others. But what you have to show me is that Trump was friends with these people after knowing what they were. Speaking of Epstein, do you know who Jessica Leigh Collins is? Well she claims she was victimized by Epstein....and Biden. I have no way of knowing if her story is true, but she is believable. So while you want to connect Trump to pedophilia because as socialites him and Epstein ran in the same circles, Biden's possible connection is much more sinister. Surely someone like you who puts such a high premium on the character of the person they vote for could never vote for a man like Biden;)
Sure I think all politicians lie, and I also think it's necessary sometimes. I certainly don't listen to Trump and take it as gospel. I just think it's another level when you start attacking someone's character by making things up.
I mean, I agree, but again, if you hate that, I can give you literally dozens of examples of Trump doing exactly that, over and over, with zero evidence.
We can and should be critical of it at all times, but if you're trying to do some kind of comparison, it's definitely not gonna come out with Trump looking better. I dunno if some of these things haven't reached you, but there's an avalanche of them.
John McClane
11-04-20, 10:53 PM
I miss 2000.
Wyldesyde19
11-04-20, 11:20 PM
I miss 2000.
I miss 1985. And 1996 if I’m being honest.
No sarcasm here. Just tossing out years I miss as well.
Citizen Rules
11-04-20, 11:39 PM
I was going to say I miss the 1950s, even though I wasn't around back then. It's my favorite decade...though not politically, as in the 1950s you have a bunch of power thirsty, Republican right wingers going after 'liberal' Hollywood and harassing them into silence. I guess some things never change...haters gotta hate.
I was going to say I miss the 1950s, even though I wasn't around back then. It's my favorite decade...though not politically, as in the 1950s you have a bunch of power thirsty, Republican right wingers going after 'liberal' Hollywood and harassing them into silence. I guess some things never change...haters gotta hate.
"sshhhhhhh....
Haters gonna hate; and ain'ters gonna ain't."
Captain Steel
11-04-20, 11:52 PM
"sshhhhhhh....
Haters gonna hate; and ain'ters gonna ain't."
Have you ever tried to forcibly hold down an Apricat?
I miss 1985. And 1996 if I’m being honest.
No sarcasm here. Just tossing out years I miss as well.
I miss the year the Sega Genesis released. =/ and laser discs, though I never had one.
Have you ever tried to forcibly hold down an Apricat?
ROFL
I miss the year the Sega Genesis released. =/ and laser discs, though I never had one.
Love Laser discs...still use them so pretty to have them facedout on my shelf
https://www.movieforums.com/community/data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxITEhUSExIVFhUVGBUVGBcXFhcVFRUWFRYWGBUVFxUYHSggGB0lHhUVITIhJSkrLi4uFx8zODMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0O 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 8eT4jXjtvE/jyfEaYhz4fFwrIim00cciOAwyyEIT0+8CDUne0AYuVVRUUZQAoyi2VdbCu3q7CnjeTQo/F2Nnb+K/Hk9a4d4MV+O/rSJ9i4hYRO0ZEZsb3FwDwYre4B60+m62MKqwgNmsR3kB14XBa499FORz7H1/A1/eLF/jv8v2ro3kxf4zeg/amRsbEGIz9k3Zi9205aE2vew62pw7vYrLn7B8uXPfT7PG/H5ca7VIDjg+v4HBvNivxj6D9qUN6cV+J8hTu6WyTJMjS4fPh2VwXLEBXFiugIJ4EX4UIigZ3yIpZiSABqTRbklyQisEpSjpW3OwS O9WL/ABB8K/tXRvZivbHwCoybIl7ZIHjdGcjlwW/ecciALn3V3e4wRH+DDIrR9oHVmPfCt3HVjf7SjNp1FFamQl+Pq06U9r4JS73Yn2l+EUr+92K9pfhFPbbwuFjxGCWOJuznMecGRr2 kNl1JuLeFSYcJgvrONibDsEw0aSKRK3eGQl7a6G4PEnhyqaWTyV3m6ZK9H8EH+9+J9pfgFdXfHEfyn/KBXcbhsKJsKqxMueVYZoWkJZCyK4fODqLOvC350L3vEUMsohQhIgNCxJJC3Y3N7cflQbmvkZB9Nk4j8XwFDvliP5Phrn98MT1T4a 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 a4doply9muXpYW9KtKEkqoxcrxTm5auS3bwyu8sZd4jIGw4JQFYwVkWwGYnw1vRjb2zFlleZ5MsZXXL9vRbacuVZ1JtRWXKygr0I 00pMW01GXS+QFVJ1KqSTlHhcmo9uVboc8sNS0yrajRMXtDt8M00CwZZcKYWdmbtFsrWiyrpoT1uDfjRATSPD9ajhK4qaCIPd9BkO ZRkb7w1tpz41Rdm7IM0DyxrlzllB5Zsts1uXuqz7ISeV1lfBhZVUL22cFSBcd22vXQjmdaOtblWeHRpad/7DmytoF8PhpEjRsmHaGRpJHUp3VEgKAEPdlN72Nd3excypgFzPkGHmVwTcG+Ts2bx6eZqFiN2VhdSdGnfLa5AZyCfs3tewPjTg3K KZcuYZDdbO+nDQa8O6NKj3l4D+PGv1Kx3dmeV4cI4dlEIljlj4B2F0uRzIZb+80P3dny4uWPMUdoZlRuYfMAT5ga+tJm3XKm4LBr ki0jqCSbnQH9Kal2GXYWJzKbgoxDDrqKDyxbsfDBUJJSW9BSRp1XAJNIZJo53JcG5MOWTRiLX0CXv0oBvUWZ8QTckh7X1NspsPSp su78zWJaW4uM2ds2vG7XvScXsKV1YNm1Fr3ObzvQllToZgwrHbtboOYzbM0c2EiVEKMEViVJdbA3ykGwsADTGHaUYrHSRr3mjRUz fZaS0jAeWq386r+0sM1lMk0gK3KtnIYaWOo4aXoY+MGZj203e42lcXIAW+nOwFNU0ytLpaVWuPJbsVg2OLhnNhmnVsvFrJE12JGg sVHqKZ3h2QX+syO1gwYIF1ZmYZUFvMgVWE2hZo3E0oyBluWLEhhYgk+4+6ieGwck0fdmlcZgwPaMSrLqLE8KEmlVjIwyW6kuKLPt rZxmlRswWNUCk8wFJvYeVDd2nyTyuouEicLfnmZSAfMJUCTDYmMEtJKysLEM2Ycb9NKDrtTI5KyuvAFQ1lNr8R76jHd2hmlrD25S Xwv6Fpxe1Hl2fiCYlia5UCPVWsEOa9h1I91StubNGNSN1ZcjxqvkpFwyjrrw8BVZwrtlNpJCjX7pbuam+g86gYbaXZgxrK4S5OS+ guLEX428AQNaknqFvE8dNNfP+jLwdpD+0IgpuEgljB6m8ZIv5D5GojbP+rF5y4sEkVBY3zOLA+4ZvWqhNi0a3eKlTmVlNmU9Qadb a1x35Gc9WIPoBp8qDTa43JRhGMqUlp2/guG6yTxWS8cuDmUyXbRo+0GZly8GUknj1NO7BmaJJGiTMHxNwugtCMqXGYjhlJqlQbZYIkfavlVcmW4sbE2JsAeBAtw0pWHx0pVV GJlGXQWKjS+gOmtuGtSe3IlYZTWzVt+QvtTClGJbLmkZ3KjW2ZidT4kmodddydWJJ6nUmuVVfJu44uMEmaN9H0FsPm9t2PuFlH/aa9RPdiDJh4V/kUnzbvH5mvVpY1UUea6iWrLJ/ZaGrJd9oMuMk/myv6qL/MGtZas3+kiG08b+1Hb4WP8A5Cq3UL2lz0yVZq8oqVDdtL3DRKoe01uhqrjdSRtdVHVikintXgK7JxrgNayPJ1uctXLUomuAHgOJ4 VwTZ90sEE2ZDcfaQyeZkJYD0YUW3LU/VVzFWIeYXU3Gkr2F/Dh7qcxQWGBI+FlRB7gqjTjxtQ7a+1FwMaxoAZil7X/hxi5LyEHgMzHzsOlZ8d5MY94pB/aRhVe0laNMl2V5LWRiCM2pHU8CKA4HeLBKpz7QWZrkkkgeNlRBwHhfzNZHtfeR5JC2YyuCbSSa2/8Ajj+ynpQqbak7cZX8gxUei2FWVitbirS+TYdqbwbNkIBmkuOBCyLa97EXXwqv7DxOEwxZhiJMRIzNlJzACMgZVYHS973I61nkG0 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 QlvhBP5gVQirdHocj0wcvCNVwigAActPSvUrDiu1po8pYTNUn6S4P4UT+y5X4lv/AKKuxqt79wZsHJ/KUb0YX+RNV8quLLPST05ov7MtvTWKF1NOUmQaGqCdM9PNXFopmIHeNN2qRj1s5pgVrx4PIzVSaEWqVsxQZ4QeBliB8i63pkLT+Bc JNE54JJGx8ldSfyrnwRPonFRoG7RgLL3iemW9vzPrWAbxbWfESNbVp37QgakhrCKMeSgaVtu9NzhXVblnKKADbUsLfMCsc2Ns/s9p9k5zGLNrYgErHoQDY21uPdVSElGMpeFYXdBPZO5cQUGe7ueIBIVfDTU+dTMVulhWFlTIeoJ/ImiG29oCBAxNszql7Xyg3Ja3OwBNqq6bSxaSMVkM0YzFWIGWRR961gy3HlVDG+oy/wCJqojX0Bdp7G7B2DsLAadTfgRSt3sWFYgi9iJAOpWiG0cT9ae9rArlF/X9aE7tYUSYhULZQwIv0zd2/uLA+6tTHJyx1PkEHUjXdm7CQCFHTVrSScdcy5bE30PHhUTf7DLhsA0cLSXL3Zs2Zu+dc5PIgW010HjVsUJEDJIxAsW733I0F9eij VvAtbpWe7a322bi0yTRzAsHAYC4i1YI1ri5tZtAbcNaXCLsk8jfyUvZgzRZAASxPhYKCb0Lx4s7C9wvd+EW/errt7dZYMPBNh2MgymR3HBwAGLBeXdLG3RTVL2mP4rkcGOYeT94fnVmLtnSftIwrxrldqYo9RXDydtEY2+3ELoeZTQFPG3EeHlQq i27du0ckGwjce82/rUZ8WMhzQbTEmbDRBhcxoIwf5UuF+VDtvpZIDf8UW6W7Mn5tUvYMBeFznK5WNrc+BII9KgbbBuqm/dB49Ta5Hnakw/WWZ//ADQKpUEWZgOv5c66FpWfKunE/IVYKoh7Fjbhyq07IjslVeBbkVb8ElkFVepexp+mRubY+as24MF53f2Ut72I/RTVZq9fR9BaKR/ae3uUfuxqthVzRpdfLTgf3sXSAV6lQivVonnCcaH7aw/aQSp7SMPfY2ohTcgpT4JRdNMwsV1qdxceSR09hmX4SR+lME1mHr1uirbXjs5qCKK7cXWhANamJ3FHlepWnLJDgNekPKuLrSk460y hBvOCl+sQYWTXXsJDyF8hPv1I9/lWRb6YhsPtaeRRYiQMNOIaNb6c73NaZ9GuKz7PQHjE7x+jZlHwuKXvduPh8c4lZ2jkAC5lsQwF7BlPG1zrVWNRbTBLczPamNmxCA EJkJBDAGxI8/MiuxzyiPskjVbjKWBLEDnYEVbMHuPBh3yDGTSk69hGqXbS/evcIP5jYcNaIbe2MkEGcIA9wAqMzW0JJZja4AU8FHKlSioqopUjoRlKWlfJRDhzHGWA1sAi2uS33QOfifCjv0d7pGOftJ7Bo1SQr fVS+qK3jpc+4VbsFhsNhoVkssj2zFwAxuAMxQH7IB/rULYoJiWRHCkSPLNmBYuE1ynhY5bCipNKvI6ONRi5f0KV9Je3nbES4dJnZb2cZVRAoAIiBAzML3YkmxNtNKotPY3FNLI8rm7OxZj 1JN6ZNX0qRVNP3G2rlwuGZrMqzSYZ76hBILxEi3Wy+80J+kHc18P/AOoiUGDS4Uluxvy4apcmx5XAqvbHxuXD4qHgZOxkBFwbwuT/AKgfdV63L3/4Q4sqBaxkY2UqBY5r3FyOWg40p3F2Tq0ZZXhWj7S3Kw+KxDfUpVRWDsF+5dWsVUcgbgjlaomyvozlnUlcTGpUlSrI1wVtfUHXiOH WpLLF7EpYpRV/BRKL7O7sTnm/5D/Zq2y/RHigBaeE9dGW3vI1oDvPsRsKcglikCgX7NgSl/aUG/LmOnUV0pJ7Bxr5Cm5TIsRzkWd34i+ihRehu9UwaW+n2QLjQHvNraj27+DyYSHgGYM+o+7I7DnzstUzak2aRjyBt6aE+t6TjV5Wx0 3WJIaZ9KjmltwFIvVorMmYEd4VbIhoKrGyVuwq0iqPUvc3PS4+1s5Wnbo4fJhYvEFviJI+RFZkqkmw4nT1rYcDCFVVHBQF9Bao9O t2zvVJ+2MQjHXq9HXqu2YpMpDil0h6WcY9vbDkxkw6tm+MBvzJoRVp+kWC2KDe3Gp94LD8rVVrVQmqkz1fSy1YYv6Am3hQZaPbcX SgKKKvYH7DB69VmY4CK4GtXDxqTsxkE8JlAMYkQuCLqUzDNccxa9OKZrP0a7OK4HMzEfWGMgtyGiLbzCX94pUe6UjTFzjpTHnLMq MFJb2SV0HE35+VJwG/eFkxUeDjUqpuquFAjLD7KqNDlIBsbdKnbYmw2zsJIF4vmIBYl5ZH8ePLyAXwqm09Vs5P4KZitvPgUyRZ5J3kcktdri10dmIzMLHM Bcc+QtQqTG4qeJ55ZWdhmKRA2QEn2eYGhsTQ76s2VZlZs7E5lPI6G6/y6+dI+vsQmHW4ZjZrdOenXnfwpijS2/qO2cr/ANC/bhbIWTDStLZi+WNjbjazN53uPSn9pbOeGKds+WMxTyFspHZlY2VSRc5ic/DT5VZt2sMseEhUc1z+9+9+oHup/G4JJ45IX+xIrIeF7EWuL6X5+6l0rTIZMruUVx/0fNFdPAVYNrbmY2GZohBJIAbK6KWVlJ7puPs36G1K2puw0WFilDKZO1kimjDqWjfQxoBzNg17X4jlV20V6bIm7YT/ANRnHCBip9k54xw8iRRXYuykdC7gEKLldRpbQgioUOypIMNLPLlTtU7OJWN3kvJGWZVB0AC/aPlY3ruwscwBQW1BB69f6UuatWh2LZ0whsDaoP8ACDGB1csuVmsx1AuTe51I6ailzzTGcv20id0KpU5TpbmLadevOgWOwxEt8p5E 6dfKrFLixIyrlygAE5vtFVAFgehpUlT1Iswla0yIzRZrF5JHJudZGB04kFdBc9QeFNvhI8ySRuwzPlcNYOgFrcNGU9dPKiBOZmkS Kyg90WNhppcnXnQqaN86k6FfDkR091BSbOlBLdF02liUiC5HVxlMUd/tmy5soAtppa/urL5uPpWv7W2MjxRySWh7IiQtcd0qvdJ4G97aeFudZhvAFE7ZRYGxt0vXdPJEcyuN+AYx4VwV5qTarZUDWwUu16sdBd300vRo1m5 3cz0fp8axInbBgz4iJf51PuXvH8q1iEVnG48ObE39hGPvNl/U1pUIp3Tr22UPU5XlS8IkpXKUtcqwZpKpDUqktUTiifSTB/8Ahf8Axr62I/I1R8laP9IMN8OrezIp9xDD9RWfWqllXuPQ+nyvAvqwRtqC6VWxHVy2jHdDVWya1Z6Z+0zfU1WWxhkr2TlUi1eIqwZ6ZI3dwufFQI SRd1Cm5GV79w6Hk2XSjm1YRHLKMbNPLIhvoDIiqbWsQQF0IGtvnQnYUwjxWHkbRUljZj0AYXPpVv8ApIwixqQMzlmW5zLZC5Niy/bJYKdTYflSZr3JEoyoRsFsFiFEcM1nH3GBV2sNbX+0dOVSNlxxJBi0SMF0LDtMgzhWYZ0zAcrn3NWZdmwfS4KnQ8CpB0Pgb1qe7N 54cTkGszxsATYMcuZlLWNr2+VKyY9PD5G4sltavhouOxxljjRraLGg8SEuf19KDT46V8UI1JydmWIAvlJYlb21Hcym3MmimCIw8a nEyKCAgF+NxGAwFtXJsx0qHgd4sN33S7k3No0ZmyiwBYW7o8/1rtNqhLfuciTiMeBiY4DCzFkzFwRaMX0DC99SD6VlG+uznG0ZO0aONJLTBrPkjRu4hbKPtEprbma0vFbSSaWVMKhmlMNic2SJft5 QW5Ekjhrw6VX9u4n60TgzBMZWyq1mRGQQHOGVjdTe5vc8CPCpx9rAr5RQcRsyd5ZM2uQsBzA0vpy4CwPh4VYt7thIn1P6tH/FcKlgbM/cLXYE6m/PwI6Ud2dOIy+GGHledsygARqAuVASzEnUG+tiNB1qFtfeWNvqimNxJhpVllGnc7M2ZFY2z6XsRytfjRjKxuRVLYFbO2jE8TDIxct kAOhYgEMCLaWuNONGcQ0MS2j7MBFGeRz3V4aFufKqF9YZZzY5CZJX15Bzca8PfXt5cRcpCp7kaLcAggysMzNcfa0KgdNfGovFctn sM7tRt8lkbfOG4UMRb76wDX/CGa/qBULG7djlskCzF8yku+QaL/ICb68yRVOKWovsRdbAg3ys1wRa3IG2vG/upnajHcUs05bE3bW15ZB2btI2W2YyMLs1tLKvdVR0FyTqTwsDkYk3p/ESZiX6nTy5fICo5FMikiDsQTXBxrppcC3IqT4AlvRZ9jRWS9EDTeDSyiniKypu5Nnq8EdONIuP0ew6Sv4qvoCT+Yq8xCqxuNBlww Ptszehyj/tq0xCruJVBHnuslqzSY8K9XQK9TUViRSTXq4RQABd64c+FlHRc3wEN+lZcK2DFxZlZeoI9RasftVTOt0bXpcvbKI3iVupqqTjvGr a/CqxPGTJluNTbXxpnTPkX6nG3EjAV4mpMmCcE6Xtz5aefkfSuDBuQCBcG3DjrwNWdS8mV258UMii+0dtGdEWYHPHlXOqpeRFN0V2P eGXwNj5i5Gdg3JTobe/pXpYGHEaCxvy14UHTBplzQnETZuAsCbnqx6k1b9xNsyADCRMiM7m7styFI+4LgFhY8b8aphNO4aVkZXU2ZSGB6EG4PyoyimgWbJs 3Ysn1hcTNK0r/wAVCCqqiAMQhRQNNL8z9qp2xtkxQSYiVBYyMLjkABfTpfN8qp+0d9pGGaOREGUHLbM+a2oGmtU2ba2JkYs0z3bjZioNuGi2FJUWw teTVNy8JHE2LVbA/WGNuapkTKB/Lctb309BhYxjZJyVztEsY1F7BmLHrzWsbdmvmLsSeJubnzN70uHCtK1lBZjw1udPE1JwfkGnk1jD4mBMW7MyqzLxJAvlOtuv9KFH AQNicTMGTK0IUaj7YYm9vHQeNqzja2x3jLCT7QCtaxbQ3BJblY2HmaQ20GWONYs0bKGDFWtnBN+A8eVL7bXDHJp234Lvh9hRkxG2 UfVWZ+dpR2eWQ3828NKzraERVzmAuypJoLD+IisdOXGj2zd5pFVw7kZwENlvdALWU2OU8aHbxY1Z5y6CyZURRYiyooA+d6njUlLc EqaBkZF9RcagjhoRY/nU8TokZSMEFuJbiBbgNfnUUaV2Q6Xpr3IrYjSNy6U2TTlJy1IA0xqRgFu486aKVP2PDdxUZuosniWqaRaIRoKclNIAtTmGhLuqe0 yr6kCsurPU7JGqbCgyQRL0Rb+ZFz8zReOo0SipUYrSSpUeVlLU2x0V6vAV6pURHrUkil0k1EjYxIKyTasWSeVejv6ZiRWuSVmO9s 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 4Q8w/il1JOHQFCkYktlYmwK5eJPGqxt3BOxY/bKErmA7+UMUXtFHHUaMOoBA40uDomRk2KOzW8qrKzaITxQoGU6C9yTbwoNMCCQbggkEcwQbEGrds7ATMjMUULBHGC1iHzFQcvfve wtew4AWqvbVwEqyLnYOZbESe0dASR1B41OMt6YfixvD4YtFI2XQWYN/hvmA66H/pFR0NxWgbxbIXDFY1JyFQBfl903PnrfxqnYDYUjFi90QEre2rMvEC/TTXxpcMvLkWp4E9Cx7toH4qAKsbA3zhjbplaw/U0wTUvbqZZFQXsiAepJP6UPN6dB3Gypljpm4+By9F9gr3r0DsasGwV0JqGZ+0d0cbzIOGi26cGfFR9Fu5/yjT52oKb1afo+gvNI/spb3sf/AKmqWNXJG71U9OGT+jQYxUlBUeKpKVoHmhyvV6vUTh21JNOUk1GgDLis938itOje0n/ax/cVob1SvpCi7sT9Cy+oB/00rMvaXOhlWZFMoBt5e9R0UG2+vA0nA/eafqCvCyCuMGl41OluXQC97eHzprE4gNYBQoFzYcNQL8vCowrxq6oowXlk1TOE10GuV6pCx6FSSABqSAPMmwqx4PdxicOlxmncSa jQRa5CVPgGa3RgKVuNs3MzT91mj0jS+pc/eIGoAGgPU+FXPD4DFnENO6RJ3CigOSPs2FhluKVOe9IkgYYmYsstplU6lgbX0PFjccR3s1hppVf28Q+MhXKy6QrlJLEXc6Kx4jvC xvbXlVwXd6YA2kj1B0s17nj3vcBe3Icarm8aTJIAY1VlMTh0OriMWAa51AI0BGnvpMLTtjK1bRCG+2DBSKCKJUYvm0KszERtfMF1 5czSN31Aw0SCUBw0jnIbsga32rlQp7vM9TypvDYrFzpGoVmkUkF2sQqk3BJ9/parDs7YgjhjXESAhMxIBIUksCLnS9rVK9qIyi48kLvJNCpjLteR174TKTGq97swQtlW3E3vQvGQELIQOzdlcFXkBBOdWzo7anVPs tbibU1vbtXsnaNpHKk3jhiHZx9nyZnGjXN9NeHKq3gcNJPIqMezR2C2W/FgxAPPUK3Gjo+SSkWTYeJnkjlhRogfv5j2l+7ZRGkfE2GpJIGlBMbBI2HJMjN2RDBezAC5jYtm4jyOlEvo8xAjxVrm0iMmXQ3IIK 6DyPrUlmUTzREgJKHUEmwIfTMPI3PuoSdO0Sjw0yw4nDJjsMJQxu0Z7umrAMLa6ixJ4cajbxwLHhsOp+0qG5691SxPvotu5YQJGA AsahSw+9YatflfU+Rqmb3bUErkDREAtr9wX/M/pUHHVshuHI4vU/gpm0x/Fa/HT8hUYKKexD5mLddaatVtKlRVnK5NiQtWTY0VkqvqKtOz1sgpOf8ASXfT1eSx8irvuFDaJ29p7e5VH6sapJrRt0ocuGj8bt8RJHy tScK9xe9QnWKvLD8QqQgpiOpC1bMQXXq8K9Ro4fpJpVJNCjhp6Cbx4JJY7PewYHQ2N9R+tHGoVt64gkI4qrN8Ov6VGStBjJp2ipj d2H2pPVf2qHtDc2KQWErr7lNQV3mcfcP+/fUpN6Bzv6GkKDTtD5ZpyVOToETfR0/3cQp/xIR+RNR3+jvE20lhJ8S4/wBJqyf3nj6/KlpvTF1pinIruJRcfuhi4hd1Ww5q2YeoGnvr2zd0sTKRdcq6Esb2t1HtVdsbvFA8bpe5Itb368+PGo8O3J5EVYUQZVUEsw6W0ufO jqmTahp43LHsbAxYeIRwiw4lvvOebMetTM9Z7j8biIDbt1zMb5FIbL46E2qI21sU4t2pA8OJ99dpbFJGjYraEcYzOwAHv+VCMRvf hRpZn8l/eqNiJDbvl3PnYepBpEMj27qhBbzb4j+1coIlRaF3hcBuwjbvsXJk5XAAsBysB/WozzT4mRRJY5fuLwv1bkPM0FixTqMpKtfm2p9L2HuFdxe08S5AMmg+6oCr8IsKFfA2trLgu7qyJ3pALHQJYqDzuevlb30O2bu+sk aSq5DZ1zDNYARsbWsONr9PteFAEx2LPBrAenoaQs0vDtR/lBI9RpyoOL8kk9qLng9y8NHIJFkmupJFnAtcWIuFv86lPu1hM2YhrhQt89tBwrPZZHFs0zj3qv5mocmJXnK7eR/pb50dLYqqLxt3baRx/V4CSb24WLXvdR0Hj7uFZ9j57ki/O7eJ6eQ4UoY0LcoGzEFczNci/MDrUGmQx0Cc7VI5Xq9XaYLFRDUVa8OO6Kq+FXvCrVHwqtnNP01btirdONavgYsiKg+6qr6C36VmWyos00a9XX0BufkK1CK/Q+lDAuWH1Ke8YkyOpCUxCp6H0NSkQ9D6GrBmnRXqcELeya9ROF5T0Poa4UPQ+horXjXAsDtG3sn0NQ8bhWZWXKe8COB5i1WI0zIK B1nzuUI0vwrmQ+FFdr4V0nlUowtJIB3TwzG3yofImliKqdxmsuji1akM9m3SkNC3sn0pBwif7NJ+qp1Pqan3BT6Sf0KMJ6W+Vd7G/IU39WX2m+I0qSD+duA4Memnvo6yL6SX0OLCRyFKIPMgelQ2wQP3m9TTT7LU8zR1ryRfS5FwiWZk5yoPJhTT4mEffv6n9Kj/ANkjrXP7JHtUdUfIPx83gffGxLa4Y3FxoP1ri7ZjB0Vx8OtNybNJsC3AWHlSP7I/mrk4fIZYM3CWx2bbVxonxHMPhri4ppOLk2je4Gig8BoNOH5Vw7I/mrg2SeTUdUPhkY4cyduILJrlFP7IbrXDshuoqfcj5FfjZf2gyu0RGyW6iuHZL+FHuR8g/Hy/tB9eqd/Zb+FTMFu87gljlAsBqLkk6kZiNALn0Hl3cj5IvDkXKB2AHfFWYULh2bllOUkqDYFgAxHUgcKOtgyASWU9LX621NVs0k3yX+ln2VU lyFdyIc2KU+wrN8sv+qtSw4rP/o7gu0r/AOFR8yf9NaPho6fhXtK3Wz1ZSVCtSVFMoKdU0yioLrtJvXqARd64TSa5XHHSaSa8aSa44bZaaaMdKdNNtRSBbGWgX2R6CmmwcZ4o nwipNJNGkdqZEbZsJ4wx/Av7U2dj4f8AAi/5aftU6vUaRHW/IMbYOFP/ALaH/lr+1IO7mD//AFovgAoqa5XaUd3JeQQ26+DOv1dPSm23QwR/4C+rD9aOV4V2leCXdn5ZWJtxMGTorr5ObfO9IO4GE/8A6fH/AEq1V6o9qPgl+Tl/cyt/3GwX4bfG/wC9JO4uC9hvjb96sxr1Htx8A7+T9zKsdw8H0k+M/qKQdwMJ1lH+cf8AjVrr1Dtx8B/Jy/uZUD9HuG5STD3r/wCNNt9HcHKaX/o/arlXRQ7UPBL8rN+4pDfRzHynf3qpptvo66Ypv+X/APar1Xa7sw8B/Ly+TP2+jluIxQ/5Z/8AOmz9HMvEYhL/AOAj/VWiilio9mHgl+Xl8/wgDupu39VjKs4dmYsSBYcAAPlViVa6K7TEklSESk5O2KFKBpArorgC716kGvVxI//Z
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0927/1576/products/IMG_20180503_192604_large.jpg?v=1525355749
68733
Too bad he's losing . Indian women were getting their Trump sarees ready for Trump's victory party .
ScarletLion
11-05-20, 05:42 AM
:D Pathetic hypocrisy.
https://twitter.com/therecount/status/1324200240694648834
Looking from outside:
1) I think if there's a choice to be made between a pineapple covered with sh*t or Trump, the only decent vote should be on the pineapple.
2) i can't understand how is it possible that in 8 years democrats have only found pineapples covered with sh*t.
I mean, if there was anybody in the world that it was not a total psychopath running against Hillary or Biden, the Dems wouldn't have had a single vote. It's like they are going with the "against Trump anyone should do" line of thought instead of actually finding a good candidate that would win against any rival the GOP chose. And the fact that this is their second try and they still didn't learn from their mistakes after Hillary is mesmerizing.
3) as a non-American, i view this election as something terribly important to the rest of the world (although americans are not exactly known to care for the rest of the world) although I fear the harm is already done. Trump uses a modus operandi that consists in consistently and openly lie so the truth loses value. He may have not invented it but he was the first important politician to use it in such an agressive way. And that gave a weapon to all the proto-fascist parties in the rest of the world. The world is now a worse place than it was before Trump and a lot it's because of him, even if he didn't do it on purpose or even consciously. Europe is filled with new founded far right parties who quote Trump on a daily basis and copy is strategy. Brazil is basically a dictatorship, as is Hungary and even traditionally left wing countries like Portugal, France or even Germany are facing a huge the threat to their democracies.
4) I am always scared when I hear people using the argument "every politician lies, so Trump is not different". I'd say that is exactly that loss of connection with the political class that caused president Trump (which even the more hardcore fans who are not dimwits would agree is not exactly the best president ever) and the like. And that's on the left and democratic right. Politicians became to proud to say I'm sorry, they started to view honesty as a weakness and lost any empathy with the people for whom are they responsible. So because people stopped feeling represented they turned to those who have the attitude of the simple man, sitting on a coffee place and saying all politicians are the same (i don't if that's a thing over there, here it is).
Biden will apparently win, won't do much good, but I hope in 4 years he steps aside and the two parties can actually find decent candidates.
Dog Star Man
11-05-20, 08:05 AM
I've yet to meet anyone in the public at large who really supports or believes in anyone of these ya-hoos. Am I missing something??? How are these people reaching the front lines and becoming presidential candidates? There will always be those hard-liners who vote for a man/woman based on political lines... but for these last two elections all I've heard is, "At least it's not Trump," or "At least it's not Hilary/Biden." ... but no one seems to really "believe" in the person they are voting for themselves? What the heck is going on in this country!?
ScarletLion
11-05-20, 08:08 AM
Biden will apparently win, won't do much good, but I hope in 4 years he steps aside and the two parties can actually find decent candidates.
Which is why it is absolutely key that Biden wins. To stop the rot. Otherwise we'd be looking at 30 years of some Trump family member being in power. Hopefully this will ensure no Trump will ever hold office again.
cricket
11-05-20, 08:17 AM
I mean, I agree, but again, if you hate that, I can give you literally dozens of examples of Trump doing exactly that, over and over, with zero evidence.
We can and should be critical of it at all times, but if you're trying to do some kind of comparison, it's definitely not gonna come out with Trump looking better. I dunno if some of these things haven't reached you, but there's an avalanche of them.
I would be curious as to which Trump lies are the most harmful and make him more dishonest than the average politician. In some ways he is brutally honest, maybe too honest with how he sticks the America first theme in everyone's face. I'm also sincere when I say some lies are necessary, and I equate them to sports lies. I remember one time he was talking about China and a reporter asked him what he was going to do. Normally he or another politician would just lie to avoid making waves. This particular time he just said you know you'd be the last person on earth I'd tell. I got a kick out of it. Anyway, I'm wondering about what harmful lies he tells when he could simply tell the truth. I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm just curious.
On the other hand, you have Biden or Harris telling the world that he called Mexicans rapists. This is the type of lie that does a lot of damage. People will believe one of these lies and then judge Trump supporters as racists. Then you have a situation, which we've seen a lot of, where you have people on one side of the street with their American flags chanting 4 more years, and you've got people on the other side of the street calling them Nazis and white supremacists. Then people get hurt.
ScarletLion
11-05-20, 08:20 AM
Anyway, I'm wondering about what harmful lies he tells when he could simply tell the truth. .
Mate, he claimed America had beaten Covid-19 about a week into the pandemic.
That alone probably cost thousands of lives.
cricket
11-05-20, 08:27 AM
Mate, he claimed America had beaten Covid-19 about a week into the pandemic.
That alone probably cost thousands of lives.
He's said a lot about Covid that can make someone wonder. I would question that early if he actually believed it or if it was a malicious lie, and if so why would he do it. I would also question why it cost thousands of lives when it's the governor's making all the decisions.
You know how he used to say the vaccine would be ready at such and such a time, usually a seemingly ridiculous date that was unattainable? If you think about it, this is actually something that could save thousands of lives.
cricket
11-05-20, 08:29 AM
I would also prefer a link^^to the actual quote, not that I don't believe you, but some people also believe he called the virus a hoax, which is untrue.
ScarletLion
11-05-20, 08:42 AM
January 22nd 2020:
“We have it totally under control,” Trump told “Squawk Box” co-host Joe Kernen in an interview from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. “It’s one person coming in from China. We have it under control. It’s going to be just fine.”
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html
The Washington Post hold a database of his lies I believe.
cricket
11-05-20, 08:47 AM
January 22nd 2020:
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html
The Washington Post hold a database of his lies I believe.
OK not that it's a big deal but you did change what he said a little bit. So I would ask how do you know he's lying rather than just wrong, and how do we know saying that cost thousands of lives? We don't know everything he was saying and doing behind the scenes and you don't want to cause a panic. I'm not sure what exactly he should have done or what people think Joe would have done differently. Did he already restrict travel and did that help? He took a lot of criticism for it.
cricket
11-05-20, 08:57 AM
I've heard many people talk about the death rate in America and use that to point at Trump. The numbers can be a little fuzzy and I think we are starting to be about even with many other countries but let's just look at it for what it appears to be. We are more susceptible to any other country when it comes to a pandemic. For large developed countries, nobody is unhealthier. About 35% of the population is what doctors would call very obese. That's not the only reason we are unhealthy but it's a big factor. If you want to blame anybody, blame Ronald McDonald. Better yet, everybody should take care of themselves. We also have an enormous nursing home population, and about half of the deaths have come from those. If you look it up, you will find 40%, but nine states do not report that data. We also have the largest prison population in the world. We are also a country, probably more than any other, where the people value their freedom. This makes people hesitant to take precautions and politicians hesitant to enact them. There are a lot of factors to look at.
cricket
11-05-20, 09:00 AM
And if you are the type of person who wants to play the blame game, take a look at where nursing home deaths have been huge and the actions of the governors for those states.
matt72582
11-05-20, 09:00 AM
I was going to say I miss the 1950s, even though I wasn't around back then. It's my favorite decade...though not politically, as in the 1950s you have a bunch of power thirsty, Republican right wingers going after 'liberal' Hollywood and harassing them into silence. I guess some things never change...haters gotta hate.
Worst thing to happen to the US in modern times (excluding war). Took the guts out of the soul of America (and art).
It's why I have this habit of wanting to hand people dictionaries when people say "Left" "leftist" "socialist", etc.. 1930s had a real left (and a real right).. Desperate times makes the center disappear. Too much straddling the fence must hurt the testicles after a while.
Daniel M
11-05-20, 09:38 AM
I've heard many people talk about the death rate in America and use that to point at Trump. The numbers can be a little fuzzy and I think we are starting to be about even with many other countries but let's just look at it for what it appears to be. We are more susceptible to any other country when it comes to a pandemic. For large developed countries, nobody is unhealthier. About 35% of the population is what doctors would call very obese. That's not the only reason we are unhealthy but it's a big factor. If you want to blame anybody, blame Ronald McDonald. Better yet, everybody should take care of themselves. We also have an enormous nursing home population, and about half of the deaths have come from those. If you look it up, you will find 40%, but nine states do not report that data. We also have the largest prison population in the world. We are also a country, probably more than any other, where the people value their freedom. This makes people hesitant to take precautions and politicians hesitant to enact them. There are a lot of factors to look at.
That's another thing I actually agree with you on. People keep saying "230,000" deaths, but even if they thought Biden could have done better, how much lower do you think it could realistically have been? I think as you say due to the demographics and health factors of Americans, combined with people's far greater propensity towards liberty more than other countries around the world, that there was always inevitably going to be a large number of deaths. In terms of deaths per population. Deaths per capita are not astronomically high and there are countries doing worse where arguments can be made that it should be easier to control.
However, I do think Trump has acted with very little class and decorum around the issue though, regardless of effectiveness I think his cavalier language has been offensive given the very real danger and impact of the virus. Whatever his intentions, comments about masks, his vendetta with Fauci, the way he acted like Superman when he recovered which to me felt demeaning towards others who have been more negatively impacted by it.
Those are the type of things that bothered me personally, but when I see "230,000 deaths on your hands" or whatever it's just a political tactic with very little meaning beyond the slogan. If it was the other way around around Republicans were shouting "150,000 deaths on your hands" at a Democrat leader they would rightfully be fighting annoyed and fight back at it.
cricket
11-05-20, 09:41 AM
That's another thing I actually agree with you on. People keep saying "230,000" deaths, but even if they thought Biden could have done better, how much lower do you think it could realistically have been? I think as you say due to the demographics and health factors of Americans, combined with people's far greater propensity towards liberty more than other countries around the world, that there was always inevitably going to be a large number of deaths. In terms of deaths per population. Deaths per capita are not astronomically high and there are countries doing worse where arguments can be made that it should be easier to control.
However, I do think Trump has acted with very little class and decorum around the issue though, regardless of effectiveness I think his cavalier language has been offensive given the very real danger and impact of the virus. Whatever his intentions, comments about masks, his vendetta with Fauci, the way he acted like Superman when he recovered which to me felt demeaning towards others who have been more negatively impacted by it.
Those are the type of things that bothered me personally, but when I see "230,000 deaths on your hands" or whatever it's just a political tactic with very little meaning beyond the slogan. If it was the other way around around Republicans were shouting "150,000 deaths on your hands" at a Democrat leader they would rightfully be fighting annoyed and fight back at it.
I also completely agree with you on his lack of decorum.
cricket
11-05-20, 09:59 AM
You know how he used to say the vaccine would be ready at such and such a time, usually a seemingly ridiculous date that was unattainable? If you think about it, this is actually something that could save thousands of lives.
I should explain what I mean by this. Trump is a businessman, and I'm going to paint you a scenario and tactic that I guarantee that he's used.
Let's say he has a new building going up.
Trump: When will the property be completed and ready to go?
Contractor: January 1st
Trump: That's not good enough, I need it done August 1st.
Contractor: It's not possible.
Trump: Anything is possible, get it done.
Maybe it's not done August 1st, but maybe it's done October 1st, 3 months ahead of schedule.
Now replace the property with a vaccine. He's been naming these companies publicly and putting a lot of pressure on them. Under extreme pressure, people can accomplish things they never dreamt of. What would Joe say? Well man they're working on it and doing the best they can. There's nothing more important for saving lives than the vaccine. Don't rule out the possibility that Trump could be responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of lives, especially when a vaccine can help the entire world.
cricket
11-05-20, 10:05 AM
I heard a brand new example of Trump's racism this morning on Boston radio. Because Trump is putting up a fight with these mail in ballots, and because many black people voted this way, apparently Trump is trying to suppress black people.
I can't believe we got to the point where skin color is supposed to define people instead of the other way around.
John McClane
11-05-20, 10:23 AM
Re politicans and truth: I don't want them to tell me the truth because then the asshat market makers are gunna lose their mind and it'll hurt my investments. So lie away!
Mr Minio
11-05-20, 10:53 AM
https://youtu.be/7R8hPhDfv18
Americans~
I should explain what I mean by this. Trump is a businessman, and I'm going to paint you a scenario and tactic that I guarantee that he's used.
Let's say he has a new building going up.
Trump: When will the property be completed and ready to go?
Contractor: January 1st
Trump: That's not good enough, I need it done August 1st.
Contractor: It's not possible.
Trump: Anything is possible, get it done.
Maybe it's not done August 1st, but maybe it's done October 1st, 3 months ahead of schedule.
Now replace the property with a vaccine. He's been naming these companies publicly and putting a lot of pressure on them. Under extreme pressure, people can accomplish things they never dreamt of. What would Joe say? Well man they're working on it and doing the best they can. There's nothing more important for saving lives than the vaccine. Don't rule out the possibility that Trump could be responsible for saving hundreds of thousands of lives, especially when a vaccine can help the entire world.
Unfortunately, the contractor usually knows more about the labor involved in performing a task than the client demanding it because the contractor does this type of work daily. Sure, there is a buffer in place, sometimes, to accommodate that "what if?" factor if things do not go smoothly, but that's not something that should be assumed 100% of the time. IF deadlines are shortened, then something must be removed from the development workflow. That must be taken from planning, development, quality control, testing, safety standards, or whatever. Something of that list (or all of the above) gets reduced as lower priority to the deadline. People are people, and people get tired, stressed, and rattled and that all can lead to a poorer product, if not a poor product missing something that might have been caught had a more realistic timeline been established. People must cut corners in this situation.
In my experience, "business men" care more about controlling things and proving others wrong than they do about quality or the actual results of the effort.
That's not to undermine pressure completely. I don't mean to stand with a one side or the other posture. But this is what happens and it needs to be represented in any argument like that.
I would be curious as to which Trump lies are the most harmful and make him more dishonest than the average politician. In some ways he is brutally honest, maybe too honest with how he sticks the America first theme in everyone's face.
Yeah, I am 100% not talking about just being blunt or brash (though it's too easy to say "brash" about someone who's really just being awful, and we shouldn't pretend how the President talks doesn't have a significant effect on civility).
I don't wanna hijack this thread but I can send you some privately or something. I'm pretty serious about this. But I wanna say, preemptively, that "most harmful" sounds like it could end up being a bit of an escape hatch here. I'd argue that lying very brazenly over and over is pretty harmful, for example. It's not just about the claim, it's about its proximity to the truth. If you say something very harsh and it is misleading, that's bad, but I'm not sure it's worse than something pretty harsh that is clearly 100% false, and can't even really be spun into maybe-sorta true. Both bad, but for different reasons. And we have a staggering number of examples of that.
I'm also sincere when I say some lies are necessary, and I equate them to sports lies. I remember one time he was talking about China and a reporter asked him what he was going to do. Normally he or another politician would just lie to avoid making waves. This particular time he just said you know you'd be the last person on earth I'd tell. I got a kick out of it. Anyway, I'm wondering about what harmful lies he tells when he could simply tell the truth. I'm not saying it's never happened, I'm just curious.
Yeah, that's definitely not what I'm thinking of, either. In fact that's one of the reasons I'm so put off by it: very often it's just bad mouthing people who were "mean" to him. Just petty grudges, with absolutely no greater good in mind.
cricket
11-05-20, 11:16 AM
Unfortunately, the contractor usually knows more about the labor involved in performing a task than the client demanding it because the contractor does this type of work daily. Sure, there is a buffer in place, sometimes, to accommodate that "what if?" factor and things do not go smoothly, but that's not something that should be assumed 100% of the time. IF deadlines are shortened, then something must be removed from the development workflow. That must be taken from planning, development, quality control, testing, safety standards, or whatever. Something of that list (or all of the above) gets reduced as lower priority to the deadline. People are people, and people get tired, stressed, and rattled and that all can lead to a poorer product, if not a poor product missing something that might have been caught had a more realistic timeline had been established. People must cut corners in this situation.
In my experience, "business men" care more about controlling things and proving others wrong than they do about quality or the actual results of the effort.
That's not to undermine pressure completely. I don't mean to stand with a one side or the other posture. But this is what happens and it needs to be represented in any argument like that.
Hire more people?
cricket
11-05-20, 11:21 AM
Yeah, I am 100% not talking about just being blunt or brash (though it's too easy to say "brash" about someone who's really just being awful, and we shouldn't pretend how the President talks doesn't have a significant effect on civility).
I don't wanna hijack this thread but I can send you some privately or something. I'm pretty serious about this. But I wanna say, preemptively, that "most harmful" sounds like it could end up being a bit of an escape hatch here. I'd argue that lying very brazenly over and over is pretty harmful, for example. It's not just about the claim, it's about its proximity to the truth. If you say something very harsh and it is misleading, that's bad, but I'm not sure it's worse than something pretty harsh that is clearly 100% false, and can't even really be spun into maybe-sorta true. Both bad, but for different reasons. And we have a staggering number of examples of that.
I get you and at this point I don't trust either side or the media to tell the truth. What I'm most concerned with is the effect of the lie. Are people intentionally lying and some harm is the direct result. I gave an example of lies coming from the Democrats that are harmful and if Trump does or did it I'd be equally as critical.
The President owes transparency to people during a public health crisis, and that was not there. We have him on tape admitting he was downplaying it. And he said many things one week implying it was no big deal, and then saying he was ahead of other people knowing it was a problem shortly after, which is just a lie any way you slice it. And not one that serves any public health purpose: it serves only to save face.
This is not interpretation or opinion: it's all on the record, which means anyone can find it if they look.
"Maybe he was just wrong" is not much of a defense when we know exactly what he was told and can see for ourselves he had experts around him telling him it was a problem, and was not going away, and he just sort of insisted it would anyway. At a certain point you're being so stubborn, so arrogant, so dismissive of expert opinion, that you are choosing to be wrong. And if you wanna parse that and say it was just massive incompetence rather than a lie, fine. Either way it's unacceptable.
I get you and at this point I don't trust either side or the media to tell the truth. What I'm most concerned with is the effect of the lie. Are people intentionally lying and some harm is the direct result. I gave an example of lies coming from the Democrats that are harmful and if Trump does or did it I'd be equally as critical.
I think the question is why someone would be aware of one and not the other to begin with. It's all there for people to find. Why haven't they?
I'm not saying it's someone's job to know everything, but I am saying that what makes someone partisan is not that they're just wrong about things, or believe false things (though that obviously happens), but that they choose to focus on some things and not others. They put time and effort and thought into debunking and deconstructing one false statement, but never go looking for the other ones. It's pretty easy to feel like one side is a lot worse if that's the only side being Googled and critiqued, but choosing to do that more for one than another is, itself, a choice, and reflects perhaps what the person wants to be true.
The hardest thing to do is to be fact-checking the side we're sympathetic to. It's harder to muster enthusiasm for that kind of thing, I admit, and we will never be as diligent about it as our critics. But we have to try.
Hire more people?
That helps if you have time to plan ahead, otherwise you spend valuable time getting new hires up to speed on tasks rather than doing the tasks, which also just wastes time that you don't have in these situations. That doesn't really even address finding someone qualified in time enough to be of use.
Hiring new folks work when we bid on a contract and can project that the workload will be more than we can currently handle. We can then take time to VET candidates before blindly placing them into positions that they may not be prepared for. Even those that are prepared, they do not know our protocols, standards, and workflow. In cases where a deadline that we've already established to be reasonable gets cut drastically, well that becomes all-nighters and weekend gigs (see previous post for those side-effects). We do not have time at that point to train up, supervise, and review new hires' work in those cases when we are given a timeline that we already can't meet with a reasonable workload. Which all kind of goes to my point that something must be cut in order to accommodate shortened timelines.
gandalf26
11-05-20, 11:48 AM
When's the next state due to give results? Does anyone have a rough timeline of when results should come in? thanks
No, but in PA my county has about 35,000 mail ballots uncounted and they're not counting them until Friday. It's not even clear why. I think they're really just not setup to have to do this much hand counting this fast, and they can't just bring in new and untrusted people easily or safely. Accuracy matters more than speed, since we all just want a result faster but don't need one.
Anyway, my best guess is we get a real call for Biden tomorrow.
Dog Star Man
11-05-20, 12:43 PM
Accuracy matters more than speed, since we all just want a result faster but don't need one.
This is true, but it's almost like saying to a person: "Accuracy matters here... Haven't made up my mind on how to administer this poison... but trust me, the way in which you die matters to me... accuracy 'matters'..."
The suspense in how I'm dying is worse than the process of dying itself! I just want this election to be over with...
Hey Fredrick
11-05-20, 12:48 PM
The one thing that is certain after Tuesday night is that a lot of states are still a complete **** show when it comes to counting ballots. Can't believe this is the case but Florida (FLORIDA!?!) should be the model for every other state. Mail in ballots should be counted as soon as they start coming in. None of this letting them sit around for weeks/months then waiting three or four days after the election to get everything counted. Doing that just allows conspiracy theories to run rampant which doesn't do any good for anybody. No matter the outcome, half the country is going to cry foul which makes for some good TV.
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F17%2Fbb%2Fa6%2F17bba69d715e8b996fb4280cda85d3a7.gif&f=1&nofb=1
Ultraviolence
11-05-20, 12:49 PM
https://youtu.be/7R8hPhDfv18
Americans~
https://twitter.com/Timdoutre/status/1324299839140605953
Dog Star Man
11-05-20, 01:01 PM
I've been somewhat "out of the loop" in regards to national and international affairs in recent years... but just a quick observation, maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like America is a real "Odd-Duck." Maybe not as backwards as some nations, but... wow... Heck I live in California. I went through the "Mary Carey, Gary Coleman, Arnold Schwarzenegger, etc."-type election before the nation had "The Apprentice" as President... but again... wow...
John McClane
11-05-20, 01:40 PM
America's greatest export is speed, so anytime we take longer than a hot minute to do something people get funny. I can only imagine what it must be like for an outsider looking in.
"America, ain't they the ones that cook their burgers in less than a minute?"
America's greatest export is speed, so anytime we take longer than a hot minute to do something people get funny. I can only imagine what it must be like for an outsider looking in.
https://i.postimg.cc/x1dvWgg7/World-Cringe.jpg
North Carolina froze the vote count at 95%. Sup.
gandalf26
11-05-20, 02:18 PM
https://twitter.com/Timdoutre/status/1324299839140605953
Seen that cat loads on videos in the past week. Never gets old :)
WrinkledMind
11-05-20, 02:19 PM
Weird why Americans aren't using EVMs (Electronic Voting Machines). There give instant result and are more secure. Extremely low chance of tampering or votes going to waste.
Weird why Americans aren't using EVMs (Electronic Voting Machines). There give instant result and are more secure. Extremely low chance of tampering or votes going to waste.
We do/have. The place I live used them many times before this year. I assume we decided not to this time because they were all touch screens with big physical buttons for confirmation, IE: much worse for COVID than individual paper ballots only the voter had to touch.
gandalf26
11-05-20, 03:23 PM
Facebook removes group calling for 'civil war' over election
Yikes. 330,000 members.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/election-us-2020-54786937
I'm really starting to hate Nevada xD
Miss Vicky
11-05-20, 03:49 PM
Weird why Americans aren't using EVMs (Electronic Voting Machines). There give instant result and are more secure. Extremely low chance of tampering or votes going to waste.
Due to the pandemic, there's been a record number of mail in ballots this year and they account for a significant portion of the ballots that are still being counted.
Captain Steel
11-05-20, 05:16 PM
https://youtu.be/7R8hPhDfv18
Americans~
This should be set to music.
Somehow reminds me of one of my favorite old YouTube videos (maybe it's the blue background)...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMU0tzLwhbE
No matter who wins, we should all work on becoming developers of a better country and better world. Developers, developers, developers!
Powdered Water
11-05-20, 05:42 PM
Most of the live video kinda looks like most of the vote counters have gone home. Is this thing really just gonna hang out here for several more days? This is just bizarre.
John McClane
11-05-20, 05:43 PM
I heard a brand new example of Trump's racism this morning on Boston radio. Because Trump is putting up a fight with these mail in ballots, and because many black people voted this way, apparently Trump is trying to suppress black people.
I can't believe we got to the point where skin color is supposed to define people instead of the other way around.
We do/have. The place I live used them many times before this year. I assume we decided not to this time because they were all touch screens with big physical buttons for confirmation, IE: much worse for COVID than individual paper ballots only the voter had to touch.And in the case of my own hometown we had electronic machines that swapped people's votes when they submitted their ballots. Easy? Yes. Bug free? Hardly.
John McClane
11-05-20, 05:44 PM
North Carolina froze the vote count at 95%. Sup.I heard they are smoking a pig for their lunch break. All is normal in NC.
Most of the live video kinda looks like most of the vote counters have gone home. Is this thing really just gonna hang out here for several more days? This is just bizarre.
Yeah, it's weird. But I can kinda see it: they often have other duties, it's not supposed to take days and eat into those, they need to rest like anyone else, and you can't just hire people without properly screening, since it's a sensitive job. That and there's technically no reason we need to know a day or two earlier, even though we would really like to.
But I can certainly relate to the frustration.
Zod.
Zod will be our next ruler.
Bow before Zod.
Zod does not love you.
Zod only rules you.
Only Zod.
...only Zod.
cricket
11-05-20, 07:02 PM
I think the question is why someone would be aware of one and not the other to begin with. It's all there for people to find. Why haven't they?
I'm not saying it's someone's job to know everything, but I am saying that what makes someone partisan is not that they're just wrong about things, or believe false things (though that obviously happens), but that they choose to focus on some things and not others. They put time and effort and thought into debunking and deconstructing one false statement, but never go looking for the other ones. It's pretty easy to feel like one side is a lot worse if that's the only side being Googled and critiqued, but choosing to do that more for one than another is, itself, a choice, and reflects perhaps what the person wants to be true.
The hardest thing to do is to be fact-checking the side we're sympathetic to. It's harder to muster enthusiasm for that kind of thing, I admit, and we will never be as diligent about it as our critics. But we have to try.
I've never googled or looked for any of this. As you know 4 years ago I was not a Trump supporter and knew next to nothing about politics. I hardly participated in the presidential threads we had at the time. I was watching what was happening more than normal because Trump made it more interesting. I remember watching one of Trump's conferences or whatever before the election and didn't think much of it, that is until I was watching CNN and whoever was on was saying that he called Mexicans rapists. I thought wait a minute, I watched Trump's conference and that's not at all what he said. In fact, I didn't hear him say anything controversial at all. I looked up the video and watched it again. No I didn't miss anything, I heard it and understood it correctly. I was enraged that the media who I thought was supposed to tell me the news would lie in such a horrible way. The same thing happened after Trump spoke about the terrible incident in Charlottesville. Trump still didn't win my vote that time, but with those types of lies suddenly being a constant everywhere I looked or listened, I couldn't help but start to defend him and that's what I've been doing. As you know it is still a common narrative. It probably has made me a little biased. When he attacked Biden on the racism of the crime bill, I didn't agree but thought hey turnabout is fair play. The truth is that it's all wrong. Just as an aside, I think it's pathetic how Biden cowers and refuses to defend himself but rather says it was a mistake. So I at least noticed something there that I didn't agree with, even if I enjoyed it. I'd like to think that I could point out or at least accept a lie from Trump because I do care more about the greater good than either side in this fight. I still think Trump has been treated more unfairly than anybody I've ever seen. He brings much of it on himself, but to me it's not about him, it's about the people who target him. Millions of jerks bother me much more than one.
John McClane
11-05-20, 07:07 PM
If Biden does win he is going to have an uphill battle with probably everyone of his policy initiatives due to shift of Congress.
It’s true that a lot of people don’t like Trump but I found the idea that they would hand over the keys to the kingdom to the left as pretty laughable in the run up to the election. I’m glad to see that the makeup of Congress reflects that sentiment (I.e. yeah, Trump has gotten go but we ain’t going to make it easy for Biden to get anything done).
2020’s election is not a return to normalcy. Not by a long shot.
cricket
11-05-20, 07:07 PM
That helps if you have time to plan ahead, otherwise you spend valuable time getting new hires up to speed on tasks rather than doing the tasks, which also just wastes time that you don't have in these situations. That doesn't really even address finding someone qualified in time enough to be of use.
Hiring new folks work when we bid on a contract and can project that the workload will be more than we can currently handle. We can then take time to VET candidates before blindly placing them into positions that they may not be prepared for. Even those that are prepared, they do not know our protocols, standards, and workflow. In cases where a deadline that we've already established to be reasonable gets cut drastically, well that becomes all-nighters and weekend gigs (see previous post for those side-effects). We do not have time at that point to train up, supervise, and review new hires' work in those cases when we are given a timeline that we already can't meet with a reasonable workload. Which all kind of goes to my point that something must be cut in order to accommodate shortened timelines.
I deliver samples to the main testing lab in Massachusetts. When the Corona tests starting coming in they couldn't handle it. Part timers became full timers, everyone delayed their vacations, and they brought in people from other labs. When there's more work to be done it's not hard to find a way.
John McClane
11-05-20, 07:10 PM
I deliver samples to the main testing lab in Massachusetts. When the Corona tests starting coming in they couldn't handle it. Part timers became full timers, everyone delayed their vacations, and they brought in people from other labs. When there's more work to be done it's not hard to find a way.
Difference being you got paid. I’m fairly certain poll workers do all this work for free.
EDIT: I just checked and yes they do get paid but only for one position. So if stuff gets short handed you cover more work for the same pay.
cricket
11-05-20, 07:15 PM
Difference being you got paid. I’m fairly certain poll workers do all this work for free.
EDIT: I just checked and yes they do get paid but only for one position. So if stuff gets short handed you cover more work for the same pay.
Haha we are actually talking about something completely different.
Difference being you got paid. I’m fairly certain poll workers do all this work for free.
EDIT: I just checked and yes they do get paid but only for one position. So if stuff gets short handed you cover more work for the same pay.
All that was about cutting vaccine timelines from a page or so back. I still wouldn't lump together testing samples with trying to invent, safely test, and distribute a vaccine though.
Miss Vicky
11-05-20, 07:19 PM
Difference being you got paid. I’m fairly certain poll workers do all this work for free.
EDIT: I just checked and yes they do get paid but only for one position. So if stuff gets short handed you cover more work for the same pay.
Also it's not like the polls are a full time job for most of them. They have regular jobs, families, and other responsibilities.
Whoever wins, they won't be sworn in until January 20th. As long as everything is sorted well enough in advance of that, I don't see why it matters. People need to just sit tight, wait for the count to be finished, and ignore any premature claims of victory.
Wyldesyde19
11-05-20, 07:38 PM
Zod.
Zod will be our next ruler.
Bow before Zod.
Zod does not love you.
Zod only rules you.
Only Zod.
...only Zod.
Who runs ballot town?
Who runs ballot town?
https://media0.giphy.com/media/j5QjnvhyKI8LM0tXK3/giphy.gif
John McClane
11-05-20, 09:10 PM
That’s odd. There’s a bunch of new posts in here. :D :lol:
Time moves fast.
cricket
11-05-20, 09:38 PM
All that was about cutting vaccine timelines from a page or so back. I still wouldn't lump together testing samples with trying to invent, safely test, and distribute a vaccine though.
Have you looked into Trump's operation warp speed? It's pretty amazing, highly militarized and unlike anything that's been done before.
Wyldesyde19
11-05-20, 10:02 PM
Have you looked into Trump's operation warp speed? It's pretty amazing, highly militarized and unlike anything that's been done before.
And there’s a reason for that, which YNWTF has already covered. But cliff notes, it isn’t safe to rush a vaccine without proper testing or the cure could be worse then the curse.
Wyldesyde19
11-05-20, 10:02 PM
https://media0.giphy.com/media/j5QjnvhyKI8LM0tXK3/giphy.gif
You let me down, man. You let me down.
cricket
11-05-20, 10:11 PM
And there’s a reason for that, which YNWTF has already covered. But cliff notes, it isn’t safe to rush a vaccine without proper testing or the cure could be worse then the curse.
Wouldn't it still have to be approved?
You let me down, man. You let me down.
I'm trying NOT to....master ZOD RUN BALLOT TOWN (town town)...
ARGH!
Wyldesyde19
11-05-20, 10:14 PM
Wouldn't it still have to be approved?
Yes, once all testing is done. I’m sorry, not following you here.
cricket
11-05-20, 10:14 PM
The President owes transparency to people during a public health crisis, and that was not there. We have him on tape admitting he was downplaying it. And he said many things one week implying it was no big deal, and then saying he was ahead of other people knowing it was a problem shortly after, which is just a lie any way you slice it. And not one that serves any public health purpose: it serves only to save face.
This is not interpretation or opinion: it's all on the record, which means anyone can find it if they look.
"Maybe he was just wrong" is not much of a defense when we know exactly what he was told and can see for ourselves he had experts around him telling him it was a problem, and was not going away, and he just sort of insisted it would anyway. At a certain point you're being so stubborn, so arrogant, so dismissive of expert opinion, that you are choosing to be wrong. And if you wanna parse that and say it was just massive incompetence rather than a lie, fine. Either way it's unacceptable.
I don't flatly disagree with you but I would say it's a tricky situation and that there's still more we don't know than do know about the entire thing. We also have to keep in mind the apparent lack of transparency coming from China.
Jan 11 China reports it's first death.
Ok so as far as we know Trump gets warned about the seriousness of the virus via a memo on Jan 29. On the same day Dr Fauci says "this is an evolving situation", "now the risk is still low, but this could change" Trump is also told that the virus is not deadly to most people and the deaths have been restricted to China. Trump creates the White House coronavirus task force the same day.
2 days later on Jan 31 Trump puts in the China travel restriction. This should be a sign that Trump is taking it seriously. Democrats criticize the action.
On Feb 26 Trump says "I think every aspect of our society should be prepared".
On Feb 29 the first assumed death in the U.S. is reported almost a full month after Trump's first action. Later it would be determined that the first death was 2 or 3 weeks earlier. Although it started slowly in America, it is now readily apparent to everyone that this is a serious worldwide epidemic.
Let's keep in mind now that the president has limited authority and we are all living under state guidelines.
On Feb 27 the director of California's Public Health Department says the risk to the public remains low.
March 1st NY governor Andrew Cuomo: The general risk in the state "remains low".
March 2nd from Cuomo "This isn't our first rodeo, We are fully coordinated, and we are fully mobilized, and we are fully prepared to deal with the situation as it develops."
“Excuse our arrogance as New Yorkers — I speak for the mayor also on this one — we think we have the best health care system on the planet right here in New York. So, when you’re saying, what happened in other countries versus what happened here, we don’t even think it’s going to be as bad as it was in other countries.”
March 5th NY Mayor Bill De Blasio: “We’ll tell you the second we think you should change your behavior."
Let's not even get started with what happened to nursing home residents in NY.
I could go on forever with what health officials and state politicians said all across the country. Everyone in the world knew how serious it was by this point.
Where I live in Massachusetts the very first guidelines were put in March 13.
Around mid March we start to see shutdowns in states all across the country.
March 31 Trump suggests that people should use scarves or something else to cover their faces.
April 3rd The CDC finally recommends that people wear facial coverings after previously saying not to.
Of course I left out a bunch of stupid stuff that Trump said because we all know about it. I think people often remain hopeful and don't know what they're into until they're really into it. I didn't see anyone else in the U.S. doing anything special ahead of time to protect people. Looking at the timeline, what should Trump have done and when? He has no authority to close the country, we were told for quite a while not to wear masks, and we're dealing with a major unknown. Perhaps midway through February, before any known deaths, he could have called a press conference and said, a deadly pandemic is coming, many of you will die, good luck!? I get the idea about transparency, but this was not exactly a secret between him and himself. He tried not to panic people, which I thought was obvious and mentioned in the other thread months ago. Maybe that was not the way to go but we all understand the idea behind it. I'm not sure exactly what he could have done to save lives, and I certainly don't think it's fair to blame him for losing them. What would Joe Biden had done differently? He would not have restricted travel to China. I doubt he would have come up with operation warp speed. Heck, if you really want to place blame, you could give a piece to Joe for him and Obama leaving the stockpile dried up. It's a bad situation for everybody and I don't think it should have been politicized the way it was. I would even call a lot of it disgusting.
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.