View Full Version : Matrix Revolutions
regex_1
11-05-03, 01:57 PM
I just seen the first showing of the release of Matrix Revolutions. And I think that it could be the best movie I have ever seen. I am not gonna say anything to spoil it. Though I just wanna say, go see this movie. It was the better than I had ever imagined.
Also Matrix was released all over the world at the same time, as to keep spoilers from coming out to soon. And I am glad to say I was in the first showing with everyone and I got lucky and it was not even that busy.
The first 90%, indeed, was spectacular. With a few implausible exceptions, it was enthralling, engaging, and exciting. The last 15 minutes or so, however, were damned ridiculous.
I see no plausible explanation for most of the things which took place near the end (and, in some cases, earlier in the film as well). Unless you've found a way to reconcile the seemingly impossible events which take place throughout -- the climax, especially -- then I have to conclude that your praise is based on the quality of the action and effects (both top of the line), rather than the story.
And, let's face it, without a story, and adequate explanations, we're just watching an expensive (and admittedly impressive) animation test.
The Silver Bullet
11-05-03, 06:09 PM
It's been getting some pretty awful reviews.
:laugh:
Sexy Celebrity
11-05-03, 07:05 PM
Tell me if this true, then I will know everything that happens in "Matrix Revolutions" - just give me a nod:
The boy that kept following Neo around in Reloaded is "the one" and he dies and becomes the new Architect.
Anyone who doesn't think that the Zion invasion scene wasn't the most engaging scene of any movie in the past 20 years is crazy in my opinion.
How ****ing great was that scene? I can't think of ANY movie of the past 20 years that has sucked me in like that scene did. It was so unbelievably, to steal an over-used adjective, epic and well done. I was glued to it. I couldn't have left that scene if Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson were going at it behind me.
That segment rivals the passion and intensity of any of the scenes in any of the Star Wars triology. I couldn't believe how god damn good that scene was. I wasn't expecting it at all.
As for the last 15 minutes...what exactly were your problems with it Chris? I thought it did an acceptable job overall.
The only thing I didn't get was when the Oracle asked the little girl if she did this, and she said "yes, for neo". Any idea as to what the signfigance of that was?
The boy that kept following Neo around in Reloaded is "the one" and he dies and becomes the new Architect.
I don't think so. I sort of thought that he could be the new "the one"....that was just a thought that popped in my head
I was thinking about it. I have a theory about the little girl that I sort of just came up with, but I came into a snag. Did the trainman take things OUT of the matrix, or INTO the matrix?
okay here we go:
Okay. So the Trainman takes things "out" of the matrix. When he does this, he removes their...visibility...from the matrix. So basically the Matrix doesn't know that, in her case, she has no purpose because the matrix can't tell that she is useless any longer. So she gets sent to the oracle with all the other "backdoor" programs.
The father told Neo that she was "the most beautiful thing he had ever seen". So her program function was essentially beauty. (It makes sense that a program and a program would create another program, right). They had talked to the oracle before asking the Mervognian if they could use the Trainman's services. The oracle told them that Agent Smith was going to take down the matrix (she knew he was getting so powerful). If she knew, the matrix knew (confirmed by the giant face's willingness to reinsert Neo into the matrix). This means the matrix would no longer, because of it's impending doom, need the girl (the matrix wouldn't need something that just created beauty) and thus delete it. Only thing is, the oracle, and the matrix, were wrong and the matrix was not destroyed (thanks to Neo's sacrifice)...so on lives the girl. She still exists in the "new" matrix and she creates the beautiful sunrise to commemorate Neo.
Now the important thing. Sucks for Zion. Aren't they just a little bit trapped under everything they blew up to keep the Sentinels out? Bummer.
Anyone who doesn't think that the Zion invasion scene wasn't the most engaging scene of any movie in the past 20 years is crazy in my opinion.
How ****ing great was that scene? I can't think of ANY movie of the past 20 years that has sucked me in like that scene did. It was so unbelievably, to steal an over-used adjective, epic and well done. I was glued to it. I couldn't have left that scene if Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson were going at it behind me.
There are a lot of movies you haven't seen in the past 20 years.
Name one, and I'm talking action movies, that drew you in more than that one did? Or even as CLOSE as that did.
As for the last 15 minutes...what exactly were your problems with it Chris? I thought it did an acceptable job overall.
Nothing made any damn sense. How could he see things after he lost his eyesight? How could he wield Matrix-like power in the real world? Why did light come out of his physical body at the end? How did Smith die?
The film answers every single one of these questions thusly: Neo is "The One."
I can accept that answer now and then, but the Wachowskis played it constantly, like a tattered ace. They used it to tie up virtually every loose end. I was prepared to accept a lot of fairly silly conclusions (like the idea that man and machine had somehow become one in the cases of Neo and Smith), but this was just ridiculous.
I mean, c'mon. He loses the fight to Smith, gets assimilated, then the machines jump-start his body, light comes out, and Smith blows up. Eh? Did I miss something? I suppose, if I had to guess, I would guess that Neo, given his connection to Smith (which also is left fairly ambiguous), he served as some sort of adapter...but that still doesn't explain just what the machines did to destory Smith. And what of the Oracle being "inside" him?
The ending wouldn't have been so disappointing had the rest of the film not been so well-crafted. The train sequence early on comes to mind. And you're right, the defense of Zion was nothing short of epic, and definitely ought to be mentioned amongst the likes of the Enterprise and Endor, but a bad ending has the potential to taint what comes before it...especially when moviegoers have had to wait through six hours of cinema (spanning four years) to get to that ending.
Name one, and I'm talking action movies, that drew you in more than that one did? Or even as CLOSE as that did.
I think Jurassic Park came close, at the very least. And Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi came out in 1983, and I think that would qualify, too.
Regardless, yes, it was a brilliant scene.
I mean, c'mon. He loses the fight to Smith, gets assimilated, then the machines jump-start his body, light comes out, and Smith blows up. Eh? Did I miss something? I suppose, if I had to guess, I would guess that Neo, given his connection to Smith (which also is left fairly ambiguous), he served as some sort of adapter...but that still doesn't explain just what the machines did to destory Smith. And what of the Oracle being "inside" him?
Here's how I saw it. As stated in Reloaded, the begining of the Burly Brawl, all the Agent Smiths were the same. They were all connected. Essentially they were one, just spread really far out. This idea is never broken throughout the rest of the movies. You can see it when a different avatar of Smith finishes the sentence or thought of another Smith. So, they're all connected. Neo gets assimilated, and another Smith is made. At that point, Neo's mental projection (as described in the first movie) is no longer him, but it is Smith. He's stolen it. He controls it now. Neo's mind has become his mind. But there is still a life force in the real world that is controlling the mental projection.
I didn't see what the big face did as a jump-start, I saw it as a deathblow. The face finished neo off. It extinguished any life left in him. He died. As stated in the first movie, and shown in every other movie. You die in the matrix, you die in the real world. You die in the real world, you die in the matrix. The face kills Neo, and thus kills Agent Smith. But since ALL the agent smiths shared the same connection, they were all killed.
Basically, Smith ****ed up. He paniced. Instead of just killing Neo like he saw in the vision when he assimilated the oracle, he got afraid, paniced, and assimilated him. By doing that, he screwed himself.
Also, I didn't realize that Return of the Jedi was 83, so change my statement to the last 19 years. I choose 20 for the sole purpose of not saying it was indeed better than some of the scenes in Star Wars. It does rival those, however. Time will only tell if it beats them.
Henry The Kid
11-05-03, 10:26 PM
I defended Reloaded to an extent. I can see no way that I can possibly defend this one. Gah.
Ezikiel
11-05-03, 10:28 PM
I just came back from seeing The Matrix Revolutions and gotta say it was fantastic, some surprises and great action scenes, especially the war scene of the humas vs the machines.I did have some minor problems with the movie, but overall, it was just excellent. :yup:
Anyone else get the feeling they understood everything about the ending but also know nothing about it at the same time?
I guess I'm just screwed up then..I need sleep..
SystemicAnomaly
11-05-03, 11:39 PM
*sigh*
i guess i kinda expected everyone on here to rip this movie apart so i'm not that surprised.
i thought it was a very logical and terrific ending and i enjoyed the movie very much....
but - i suppose there was no possible way that this movie could have disappointed me because i love this series so much...so i'm probably biased.
anyway... to all the people that hated this movie - good luck with the LOTR finale...hope that trilogy turns out well for you at least
I was utterly obssesed and consumed by all the possibilities that Reloaded presented, so I was semi let down by Revolutions.
I was talking to Chris earlier on aim about it. I was expecting it to be much more profound. I was hoping for it to be huge and knock me down, but it only turned out being a gentle breeze...I couldn't complain. It felt good.
I'd think of it this way. The predecessors were setting us all up for what could have been a flood. It could have swept us all away. It could have been so deep that we all would have been taken in by it. And I'm sure that is probably how the Wachowski's wanted it to be. But the flood had to go through a few filters and sponges (we all know the movie industry) before it got to us. When it did it wasn't the flood it could have been, just a misty drizzle.
Name one, and I'm talking action movies, that drew you in more than that one did? Or even as CLOSE as that did.
The Thin Red Line. Mission to Mars/ I can name movies all day if you'd like.
Sometimes a degree of subtlety is a good thing for an action flick...but considering the pseudo-philosophical pretentious bull**** of the Wachowskis, I don't expect Revolutions to be any more mysterious than its awful predecessors. The Matrix is the ultimate rich stoner kid movie, something to discuss while toking hydro in your best friend's basement. The action isn't original. The story is much more pretentious than it needs to be, and is a lot less clever than the filmmakers think it is. And its unpaid debt to real action cinema is a perfect example of American studios knowing the words, and not the music, to the current Japanese ballets of violence. They rip these movies off shamelessly and pass it off as original cinema. It's awful.
syndicate
11-06-03, 12:39 AM
i have many issues with this series... and let me say first of all and foremost i was totally dissapointed. here are some of my complaints... and please ponder these before you die-hard fans tear me a new one...
1. the second movie was nothing but spacefiller in my mind... think about it... take the second movie... maybe take the few small bits from it that were relavant, and add them to the beginning third and the 2nd is pointless eyecandy.
2. the overall ending of the series is a bit too vague and a total let down. nuff said.
3. YES... the effects and cinematography were superb, but can anyone say "polished turd"? some of the worst films of all time were visually appealing... aka the last installments of the batman franchise... need i say more. effects and action should NEVER come into play... story is all that matters..
this list could go on forever in my eyes... and i could get into more detail, but i hate spoilers... in any way, shape, or form, so i will say no more... except i honestly feel that the wachowski brothers wanted to make the star wars of our generation... only problem... they had a cool idea... they just couldn't pull it off... they tried to hard...and they took a simple, but sweet concept and made it something it should have never been... and i'd be willing to bet money before they even finished writing the first movie the word "trilogy" came out a lot... bottom line... all the movies after the original are third rate... and this is no starwars.
Got a review up:
The Matrix Reviewlutions
No more hiding behind the hype. At long last, The Matrix Revolutions stands naked before crtical eyes. Find out if a revolution, or a convolution, awaits you at your local multiplex
Here's how I saw it. As stated in Reloaded, the begining of the Burly Brawl, all the Agent Smiths were the same. They were all connected. Essentially they were one, just spread really far out. This idea is never broken throughout the rest of the movies. You can see it when a different avatar of Smith finishes the sentence or thought of another Smith. So, they're all connected. Neo gets assimilated, and another Smith is made. At that point, Neo's mental projection (as described in the first movie) is no longer him, but it is Smith. He's stolen it. He controls it now. Neo's mind has become his mind. But there is still a life force in the real world that is controlling the mental projection.
I didn't see what the big face did as a jump-start, I saw it as a deathblow. The face finished neo off. It extinguished any life left in him. He died. As stated in the first movie, and shown in every other movie. You die in the matrix, you die in the real world. You die in the real world, you die in the matrix. The face kills Neo, and thus kills Agent Smith. But since ALL the agent smiths shared the same connection, they were all killed.
Basically, Smith ****ed up. He paniced. Instead of just killing Neo like he saw in the vision when he assimilated the oracle, he got afraid, paniced, and assimilated him. By doing that, he screwed himself.
That, admittedly, makes some sense, though if that was what the Wachowski brothers intended, they did a poor job of executing it. Neither I nor any of the people I saw the movie with saw the machine as purposely killing Neo in order to kill Smith.
Regardless, even conceding that point would still leave us with Neo's mostly unexplained ability to manipulate the real world as if it were the Matrix. All I heard in the way of an explanation was something about having a connection to the source, which really didn't tell us anything new. We all knew there was some kind of connection...this movie was supposed to explain why.
The ability to "see" things despite losing his eyesight is an extension of the above, but is even less believable than this vague connection with the machine world. We'd have to stretch like mad to reconcile all this within the framework the first two flims gave us.
I just came back from seeing The Matrix Revolutions and gotta say it was fantastic, some surprises and great action scenes, especially the war scene of the humas vs the machines.I did have some minor problems with the movie, but overall, it was just excellent. :yup:
I as well, just came back from seeing it. I agree with everything you have stated!
My favorite parts though were the sentinels attack on Zion and the final battle of Neo and Smith. The only one minor problem I had was that the Trinity death scene....I think it just dragged on.
the overall ending of the series is a bit too vague and a total let down. nuff said.
YES... the effects and cinematography were superb, but can anyone say "polished turd"? some of the worst films of all time were visually appealing... aka the last installments of the batman franchise... need i say more. effects and action should NEVER come into play... story is all that matters..
As for the ending, I understood it....you just have to really pay attention to it I guess.
Polished turd?????????? Matrix Revolutions kicked Matrix Reloaded's ass! Not only were the effects there and cinematography, but so was a great sci-fi /action/adventure (if that's the exact genre to use) story as well. All the way through.
How on earth can you even compare it to the those parts of the Batman franchise??????
EDITED: To add spoilers tags… shaking my finger at you jrs… you know better…
Okamura_Takashi
11-06-03, 03:34 AM
That, admittedly, makes some sense, though if that was what the Wachowski brothers intended, they did a poor job of executing it. Neither I nor any of the people I saw the movie with saw the machine as purposely killing Neo in order to kill Smith.
Regardless, even conceding that point would still leave us with Neo's mostly unexplained ability to manipulate the real world as if it were the Matrix. All I heard in the way of an explanation was something about having a connection to the source, which really didn't tell us anything new. We all knew there was some kind of connection...this movie was supposed to explain why.
The ability to "see" things despite losing his eyesight is an extension of the above, but is even less believable than this vague connection with the machine world. We'd have to stretch like mad to reconcile all this within the framework the first two flims gave us.
Hrmmm, I just thought of an interesting idea that might help.
Here is what I thought might explain why Neo can "see" things outside of the Matrix.
First, from a networking standpoint, lets say that the Matrix is a network and the way the machines talk to each other and do all their interprocessing is on another network. There is a gateway between these two networks, but essentially they are connected. What this means is that there is a way between the Matrix network (inside the Matrix) and the machine network (outside the Matrix).
Therefore, at the end of Reloaded, Neo says he can "feel" the machines. I believe at this point Neo is accessing the machines' network outside of the Matrix. When Neo is in a coma, we see that he can still be plugged into the Matrix, even though he isn't physically. I see this as him having some sort of wireless access to the Matrix network that is always on. Therefore, when he wakes up and starts "see"ing things in the real world (the yellow lines and stuff), I believe he is just seeing the machines' network through his "always-on" wireless access.
This would also help explain why he can control things in the real world because he has access to the machines' network and can manipulate it.
I think I like this idea. How does it sound?
white rhino
11-06-03, 03:51 AM
I somewhat agree with what you're saying, but I think it's more simple than that.
Notice that the only things Neo can see are machines (or manifestations of machines in Bain's case). He can't see Trinity, or his surroundings, or the blue sky when they go above the clouds. He can really only see the machine city, and stuff like that. And also, the only thing he can control is the machines. So I think that his "powers" outside the Matrix can be explained entriely by the connection he has to the machine network, which I beleive is because when Neo imprinted himself on Smith, smith also imprinted himself on Neo, or maybe it happened when Smith partially assimilated Neo. This also explains why the EMP put Neo into a coma.
Another thing though: what does the fact that it's sunny above the clouds suggest about the machines? They could easily build something high enough to break the scorched layer and get power from the sun, but for some reason they prefer to stay on the ground and use the humans.
Hrmmm, I just thought of an interesting idea that might help.
Here is what I thought might explain why Neo can "see" things outside of the Matrix.
First, from a networking standpoint, lets say that the Matrix is a network and the way the machines talk to each other and do all their interprocessing is on another network. There is a gateway between these two networks, but essentially they are connected. What this means is that there is a way between the Matrix network (inside the Matrix) and the machine network (outside the Matrix).
Therefore, at the end of Reloaded, Neo says he can "feel" the machines. I believe at this point Neo is accessing the machines' network outside of the Matrix. When Neo is in a coma, we see that he can still be plugged into the Matrix, even though he isn't physically. I see this as him having some sort of wireless access to the Matrix network that is always on. Therefore, when he wakes up and starts "see"ing things in the real world (the yellow lines and stuff), I believe he is just seeing the machines' network through his "always-on" wireless access.
This would also help explain why he can control things in the real world because he has access to the machines' network and can manipulate it.
I think I like this idea. How does it sound?
Haev you even seen Revolutions, Steve?
As for his "powers" outside the matrix. Didn't the oracle say something along the lines of 'his abilities extend past the virtual world into the real world'. What makes him the one isn't that his person just happens to be the randomly chosen catalyst for restart within the matrix, its because the real Neo has got something going on that no one else, nor any of his predesccessors, had.
Ever extraordinary person, in cinema or any other medium, has some sort of an explaination for their abilities. Spider-man was bitten by a super spider, Superman had powers created by the yellow sun. I don't see why accepting that he just has those powers because he is the one is so hard and needs to be met with such challenge. The whole movie talks about faith. There is a split between those who believe in the one and those who think he actually is just an ordinary man. Naiobe said it best with "I don't believe in the one, I believe in him". Neo was something different. He was something special. He was super!!! Simple as that. You just have to have faith in that and accept that. If you're just gonna challenge all you're doing is purposefully looking for flaws in the fact that none of it was real because you felt it didn't do a good enough job, as a movie, of convincing you otherwise.
As for his "powers" outside the matrix. Didn't the oracle say something along the lines of 'his abilities extend past the virtual world into the real world'. What makes him the one isn't that his person just happens to be the randomly chosen catalyst for restart within the matrix, its because the real Neo has got something going on that no one else, nor any of his predesccessors, had.
Ever extraordinary person, in cinema or any other medium, has some sort of an explaination for their abilities. Spider-man was bitten by a super spider, Superman had powers created by the yellow sun. I don't see why accepting that he just has those powers because he is the one is so hard and needs to be met with such challenge. The whole movie talks about faith. There is a split between those who believe in the one and those who think he actually is just an ordinary man. Naiobe said it best with "I don't believe in the one, I believe in him". Neo was something different. He was something special. He was super!!! Simple as that. You just have to have faith in that and accept that. If you're just gonna challenge all you're doing is purposefully looking for flaws in the fact that none of it was real because you felt it didn't do a good enough job, as a movie, of convincing you otherwise.
I'm not buying it, for one simple reason: it's not consistent. In Star Wars we were told there was just some "Force," and we accepted it. The movie laid its ground rules, and the series has followed them. The Matrix, with this last installment, stepped out of the realm of sci-fi, and entered fantasy.
Wireless connection? How? Did the machines implant a communications device in his head? An infared sensor? Nothing of the sort was ever mentioned, which means that, whatever's supposed to be going on, it transcends physics as we know them. Seeing as how everything else had at least a quasi-scientific explanation, this is more than a little unnerving.
It'd be like Yoda suddenly having the ability to shoot lasers out of his eyes. You can't introduce a new power or ability so late in the game without an unusually clever or logical reason, or at least some proper foreshadowing.
It's like I said in my review: the Wachowskis fall back on "he's The One" to answer far too many questions. I can accept the idea that he's special...that he can do things no human can...but I cannot accept the idea that physics as we know it is null and void in his case, especially given the fact that everyone had to adhere to them in the series' first two films.
white rhino
11-06-03, 12:37 PM
Yoda,
We've always been able to accept the connection between the Matrix and the real world through the mind affecting the body (ie. if you die in the matrix, you die in real life) even to the point where in the first movie when Neo's getting tossed around by Smith he actually spits blood in real life. So why can't this concept of the Matrix influencing the real world extend to the joining of Neo and Smith in the Matrix causing them to have a special connection in the real world?
I think that its plausible that this is what the brothers intended because of my above explanation of Neo only being able to see and control the machines. If it was supposed to be a "Neo is the One so he can do anything" explanation, they likely would have had him doing other things too, like maybe saving Trinity from dying..
I'm not buying it, for one simple reason: it's not consistent. In Star Wars we were told there was just some "Force," and we accepted it. The movie laid its ground rules, and the series has followed them. The Matrix, with this last installment, stepped out of the realm of sci-fi, and entered fantasy.
Wireless connection? How? Did the machines implant a communications device in his head? An infared sensor? Nothing of the sort was ever mentioned, which means that, whatever's supposed to be going on, it transcends physics as we know them. Seeing as how everything else had at least a quasi-scientific explanation, this is more than a little unnerving.
It'd be like Yoda suddenly having the ability to shoot lasers out of his eyes. You can't introduce a new power or ability so late in the game without an unusually clever or logical reason, or at least some proper foreshadowing.
It's like I said in my review: the Wachowskis fall back on "he's The One" to answer far too many questions. I can accept the idea that he's special...that he can do things no human can...but I cannot accept the idea that physics as we know it is null and void in his case, especially given the fact that everyone had to adhere to them in the series' first two films.
Yoda,
We've always been able to accept the connection between the Matrix and the real world through the mind affecting the body (ie. if you die in the matrix, you die in real life) even to the point where in the first movie when Neo's getting tossed around by Smith he actually spits blood in real life. So why can't this concept of the Matrix influencing the real world extend to the joining of Neo and Smith in the Matrix causing them to have a special connection in the real world?Simple: contradiction of current knowledge. None of us really know how the human mind would react when presented with a "death" in a near-perfect simulation of reality, so it's not unreasonable to accept the first film's explanation. It doesn't really contradict current scientific knowledge; it's simply an unknown to us, and thus there's nothing unbelievable about a science fiction film creating a world in which that unknown is made known.
We do know, however, that unless there's some sort of metaphysical curtain we've yet to tear down, it is impossible to have that sort of control over machines without some kind of transmitter. Radiowaves, infared sensors, and other such things are the only way we can exercise control over things without direct physical contact.
For Neo's actions to make sense, we either need to believe that there is a new "level" of science in this fictional world that contradicts this knowledge (and appears at first glance to be supernatural), or else we need to believe that he was implanted (unbeknownst to the audience) with some piece of machinery that allows him to link up wirelessly to the Matrix, other machines, etc. Neither strikes me as adequate.
I think that its plausible that this is what the brothers intended because of my above explanation of Neo only being able to see and control the machines. If it was supposed to be a "Neo is the One so he can do anything" explanation, they likely would have had him doing other things too, like maybe saving Trinity from dying..It's quite plausible that this is what the Wachowskis intended. I just don't think it's a particularly good ending, is all. Also, I admit that they didn't fall back on "he is The One" for everything, but it was still an overused storytelling escape-hatch.
I'm not buying it, for one simple reason: it's not consistent. In Star Wars we were told there was just some "Force," and we accepted it. The movie laid its ground rules, and the series has followed them. The Matrix, with this last installment, stepped out of the realm of sci-fi, and entered fantasy.
But when was it ever even brought up in the two predecessors? I really don't think any foreshadowing was needed. Realizing he could do those things was simply the final rung in his character development ladder. It makes sense to me that he wouldn't reach this final rung until he was towards his end, which obviously wouldn't come until the third movie. He did things in the second movie he couldn't do in the first movie. He did things an hour and a half into the first movie that he couldn't do half an hour into it. It's all about progression and development. He simply didn't realize he could do it until he had reached that final rung.
He even said "something's different" in the second one right as he realized he could do things no other human could do. I really don't think something had physically just changed (i.e. he was implanted with something or whatnot) I think what was different was that he had just reached that final rung. The oracle said "we cannot see past the choices we do not understand". No one understood, aside from maybe Morpheus, that it was possible for a human to do that. Even Neo didn't understand it. He didn't understand that he had the choice to do those things, and thus that avenue was never explored until it was understood - which was seconds before Neo went into a coma.
It's not like they pulled it out of their asses and were like "lets just make Neo have telekenitic powers", there was obvious progression of Neo. He never stopped growing throughout the entire series. He was constantly learning, adapting, and realizing his capability. Why should he stop in the third movie. As long as he's alive and has potential, why shouldn't he continue to realize it?
I've always just thought of it as Neo is different. Neo is something special. Neo did things in the Matrix no one had ever done before. He fought agents and survived, a feat previously immpossible. He didn't get lucky or something. He could do things in the matrix no one could do before, simply because he had a powerful enough brain to seperate the "reality" of the matrix with what was really happening to his physical brain and body.
If his brain is powerful enough to do things no one had previously done in the matrix, why shouldn't it be powerful enough to do things no one had previously done in the real world?
Hell we don't even know how many hundreds of years it has been since mankind was enslaved. He could be some sort of new human who has gone up one rung on the evolutionary ladder. It really doesn't matter to me WHY he could do those things because it was demonstrated throughout every movie that he could do things people couldn't do. Simple as that.
It wasn't inconsistent. Neo was always better than anyone else. Neo was always more powerful. Neo was always different. Things just come at different stages, which is precisely what growth is.
How come you're so hung up on something like this and not on why Trinity was able to bring him back to life with a kiss in the first movie? That **** doesn't make sense to me. :D
lament to die 4
11-06-03, 02:50 PM
Trilogy's tell a story right!They have a begining..a middle and an ending!!! right.
So where was the ending? why was a large part of "the french man" story just completely dropped?
Why do people insist on propping this trilogy up on the highest mountain of film world?
Why is it that people can't just admit that the matrix"good little idea that it was" did'nt have the story or depth to carry it to the end?
People!!! special fx's do not make an epic film..i think george lucas has proved that! It makes it fun and exciting but an epic..no.
final words now!!
Revolutions better than reloaded?..Hell yes
Better than the original?.....of course not!
An epic trilogy/ surely not just a fun one.
I agree. It had so much potential that just went to waste.
The Wachowski's started something they couldn't finish. They came up with a damn great idea, but they couldn't give it what it needed.
Here's how I saw it. As stated in Reloaded, the begining of the Burly Brawl, all the Agent Smiths were the same. They were all connected. Essentially they were one, just spread really far out. This idea is never broken throughout the rest of the movies. You can see it when a different avatar of Smith finishes the sentence or thought of another Smith. So, they're all connected. Neo gets assimilated, and another Smith is made. At that point, Neo's mental projection (as described in the first movie) is no longer him, but it is Smith. He's stolen it. He controls it now. Neo's mind has become his mind. But there is still a life force in the real world that is controlling the mental projection.
I didn't see what the big face did as a jump-start, I saw it as a deathblow. The face finished neo off. It extinguished any life left in him. He died. As stated in the first movie, and shown in every other movie. You die in the matrix, you die in the real world. You die in the real world, you die in the matrix. The face kills Neo, and thus kills Agent Smith. But since ALL the agent smiths shared the same connection, they were all killed.
Basically, Smith ****ed up. He paniced. Instead of just killing Neo like he saw in the vision when he assimilated the oracle, he got afraid, paniced, and assimilated him. By doing that, he screwed himself.
I THOUGHT THE MOVIE WAS GREAT! IT TOOK ME AT LEAST 2 DAYS TO ARRIVE AT WHAT I WRITE BELOW, NOW THATS A MOVIE THAT REALLY ****S WITH YOUR HEAD.
Seems to me it all went quite differently. The Oracle created both Neo and Smith (this sounds crazy but read on), agent Smith referred to her as his creator. Smith and Neo were essentially opposites of each other (mathematically speaking). When agent smith killed neo, he negated himself, they kind of canceled out. Now the entire purpose of that was to bring about change, which is the Oracles job, to unbalance the equation. The Architects job is to balance it, and make sure everything runs smoothly. The fact that their roles are opposite can be seen by their appearence in the movie. Black female, white male, (maybe a coincedence but interesting one). I am suprised that noone mentioned the canceling out idea.
Also, the quote "Some things never change, but some things do" is essential for the entire plot. First part - Architect, Second - Oracle.
I gotta see the movie again, to make sure I did not overlook anything, but ending did seem to leave a lot of answers out (how smith is defeated is not one of them ;)
Why is Neo able to use his powers outside Matrix?
How does he see?, Why?
If he was created by Oracle, shouldnt he be a Machine or a Program?
Is there a Matrix inside the Matrix? (is the world where humans fight machines real?)
Where does the ending scene takes place?
The Architecht implies he released all the people, which does not make any sense?
What is the source?
What is that ball with sparks?
It would be great if you could answer some of these questions
DrenaiWarrior
11-06-03, 06:14 PM
Sometimes a degree of subtlety is a good thing for an action flick...but considering the pseudo-philosophical pretentious bull**** of the Wachowskis, I don't expect Revolutions to be any more mysterious than its awful predecessors. The Matrix
I am gonna have to go against the Die Hards on this... I thought the original Matrix was really cool, Original in a way, and overall awesome...but I really wished it would have ended there...because i just sold my copy of the matrix today because the rest of the series makes me want to projectile vomit all over the wall. I thought the graphics were superb...dont get me wrong. But for Mercy's sake take away all the flash and you have a mediocre (sp?) story at best. Overall I'd give the move a 2 1/2 out 5 stars... i might have given it up to 3 1/2 but It continues to let down the orignal.
*sigh* ****ing sequals
The action isn't original. The story is much more pretentious than it needs to be, and is a lot less clever than the filmmakers think it is
.
Thank god i am the not the only one who agrees. I can name endless movies that had scenes where i was more enthralled than Matrix Revolutions. Because in those movies I ACTUALLY CARED ABOUT THE CHARACTERS, I'm sorry but I hate it when a movie has such good graphics and rides off of another movie, and then other people love it just because of that. I really liked Alien 3, but I am not so naive as to think that it was better than its predaccessors (sp?). All in All, thank god LOTR ROTK is coming out soon, If it lets me down...well I may never see another sequal again (but then again unlike the MATRIX 2...LOTR 2 surpassed its previous LOTR title).
Conclusion - The Matrix will go down in history as a movie series that could have been epic... instead will be great (I wish it weren't so).
P.S. alot of the third movie was corny too i thought
QUOTE -I believe Neo (when that kid said that i almost wanted to leave the theatre! The Best part of Matrix to this day was AGENT SMITH... He is by far the best character in the Matrix series...Neo and Morpheous can go suck eggs)
Sidewinder
11-06-03, 08:39 PM
I thought the movie was the biggest peice of poo of have seen all year, and I loved 'The Matrix' to bits. Reloaded and Revolution were just pathetic attempts to stretch the matrix out further. In the end the matrix still exists, so do the machines and nothing is left answered. They created too many bull**** ideas to try and make the film as mind boggling as the first. All the fight turned into cruddy CGI fests, I want to see actors workin the ropes and fighting on the ground, none of this flying stuff where when we hit Huge Bubbles form around us...They should have left it at 'The Matrix'. Im of to watch Kill Bill and wait for ROTK...
Sexy Celebrity
11-06-03, 08:41 PM
Seems to me it all went quite differently. The Oracle created both Neo and Smith (this sounds crazy but read on), agent Smith referred to her as his creator. Smith and Neo were essentially opposites of each other (mathematically speaking). When agent smith killed neo, he negated himself, they kind of canceled out. Now the entire purpose of that was to bring about change, which is the Oracles job, to unbalance the equation. The Architects job is to balance it, and make sure everything runs smoothly. The fact that their roles are opposite can be seen by their appearence in the movie. Black female, white male, (maybe a coincedence but interesting one).
NO NO NO NO NO!!!!! NO!!!!!!
You people are not getting "The Matrix" right, but I don't blame you guys at all, because this whole series is an allegorical action/drama story of the GNOSTIC belief system, and the Wachowskis aren't saying anything because they probably get off on everybody talking and talking and talking about this "new philosophy" so they'll go see the movies and seek out what they believe in themselves.
Let me help you figure this trilogy out with a little dictionary:
The Source -- when they return to the source, they're dead, and they're one with the universe, one with God, one with everybody and everything. This is the "reality". This is above and beyond the Matrix and Zion and all of that jazz. I don't know.. it's probably some big gigantic ball of light and love and personalities, Neo, Trinity, God, etc.
The Oracle -- the Oracle is just a psychic! She's named after the Delphic Oracles in Ancient Greece where a few thousands of years ago, people would travel to Delphi and ask an oracle for psychic advice. She's no different than Sylvia Browne or John Edward or James Van Praagh or any one of those. She is a human living in The Matrix (life, Earth, the everyday world) blessed with psychic abilities and she's out to tell Neo what she knows about things, what she knows about the future. Look at how she checked his hand in the first movie to see if Neo was "the one". Just like palm reading!
The Matrix -- WHAT IS THE MATRIX? Dumbasses! I thought this was figured out in the first film. IT'S LIFE. It's living down on Earth and experiencing. It's not being aware that there is a divine master plan being played out with everyone. See, in the world of "The Matrix", life is mostly pre-destined. That's what people in the Matrix are doing -- living out their destiny. The Archiect (the male side of god, a logical thinker) designs the Matrixes. This is what the kid is going to be doing now. He mentioned a mother of the matrix, the female side of God, the sort of boss of our emotional side -- Gnostics like to refer to her as "Sophia". The Architect and this mother work together to make life go well in the Matrix. Unfortunately, there's a twisted, darker side -- the Mr. Smiths. Mr. Smith is evil. He comes and he gets inside a person's body if that person is too weak (most of them are, except Morpheus, who is a total believer in his faith). That's why The Oracle gets taken over. Same thing with the guy in part two. When he takes over Neo, it's the perfect trap. See, that's why Neo is the one, because it was already pre-destined that the big fight would happen, Smith would take over Neo, and Neo's power would wipe out and dissipate so much evil. But it doesn't last long. Evil just keeps coming back, and that's why at the end of the movie, Morpheus promises to keep working at what he's doing, to work with the evil so that eventually, there can be peace, and everybody would go back to the source. That's the revolution at the end of Revolutions -- be kind to your neighbor, be good, let's work at making the world a better place by always loving those devil people you know. Something like that.
The thing about destiny is legit too because The Architect said in Reloaded that Trinity was going to die. Uh oh! You see her shot and falling from that building. Neo had a dream about her (dreams are a big thing with Gnostics too - it's all psychic) You think that's when Trinity is going to die. But Neo goes out and he saves her and you think she's safe then. But HAR HAR! Trinity dies in Revolutions, and I AM NOT SURPRISED. I knew, walking out of Reloaded, with my knowledge of this subject, that Trinity was still going to bite the dust in part three. The Architect said she was going to die and that was final in my book. The Architect would not lie and he knows all that's meant to take place.
So what's a program? A program is your life -- who you are in life and what's meant to happen during it. See, in the first Matrix, Neo has a life, a job, a different name. He gets out of his program - by a way of death, but in the world of Matrix, they don't mention that it's death. He gets out of his program and he's someone else. Programs messing up programs, programs going bad -- lots of reasons for this, most of them because of this dark side that lurks around in the Matrix trying to destroy it, the Mr. Smiths.
What is a Gnostic? (http://www.gnosis.org/whatisgnostic.htm)
Read that. Starting near the bottom where it says "Toward Definition". Read the bullets. You will figure this stuff out. You will become the champs at understanding what the hell is really going on in The Matrix!
Did someone say polished turd at some point? Polished turd is good. I think, for brevity's sake, i'll just randomly list things...
Things that were a let down...
-Inconsistant/illogical stuff: Well, alright, the idea of Neo's death causing Smith's is alright with me. But the mechanism of that (like so many things here) is not clear [i.e. my impression was more that Neo died by being assimilated, and the spikey-face-machine just let his dying body drop, removing the cable etc.] In any case, how we get from Neo's death to Smith's i don't entirely get - other than: he created him, by disrupting his code, and him and his general "Oneness" re-entering him might trigger a further "mutation" of sorts - one that goes critical. This is the only explanation i have of Smithies fried in electric light causing Neo's flashing tongue (and what a peculiar pseudo-christian death it was, with the cross in Neo's chest as he died. And what, at the end of the day, was the Oracle talking about in saying she thought they might see Neo again? Silicon heaven now? [It's all inclusive these days- all consciousnesses - is that a word?] Will we see Neo coming back, [having already been raised from the dead and taken to an exhaulted "level"] once the humans and machines get all shirty again? Bah. Matrix 4? They can stick it up their bum :rolleyes:
And as for the connection - Yods i totally agree - if only as a plot sweetner, i would have liked to had some hints at how the Neo-Smith-Matrix-Machineworld connection worked. How Smith could inhabit a brain i can just about squeeze to. But how he sustains connection, or facilitates Neos, or how Neo does it alone, i need to have more info on (if it's all "evolution" as someone said, then you at least want some hint - like over the generations some humans become extra sensitive to the machine-world's presence/emissions etc. They just need to be removed from the Matrix, and then blinded, to fully perceive it. No wonder no-one's figured it out before now :rolleyes: Otherwise it has all become a fairly bizarre religious metaphor, with God now "connecting" all his creations in his all embracingness, including toasters, and letting Neo hook up to the grid.
-Action: graphics are fine and all, but it was all a bit computer gamey really (i'm more interested in kung fu action - or realistic-looking freeway insanity at least ;) - but the actors-doing-their-own-stunts thing showed thru too much in the repetitious nature of some of the fight scenes.). And I felt the editing was off in places in the Zion-attack, and it didn't build that well - and i didn't care about the characters much either.
-Things they didn't do: I think OG said it best, that we were all hoping for a big tidal wave slap in the face (a bracing chase thru possibilities, oneness and consciousness, or what have you) In the end it paddled in and gave neither insight nor spice.
Ah well. Instead of making a fourth (like they've left it open for), they should open the floor to people to remake, well at least this one. Bah.
Humbug.
It was clear since the end of "Reloaded"... and i was right!
Neo got enlightment... that's all...
This is the difference among him and his predeccors.
He got his firt enlightment in the matrix then he got the secondo in the real world...
When he lost his eyes he can see the energy of life... chi, ki, prana, holy spirit, force, call as you want it's the same thing.
In the matrix he saw the code behind , in real world he sees the "magic".
That's alla, nothing more than this..
An enormous metaphore of life, like any religion does.
When he melt in Smith ho broke the shell freeing the matrix from the apparence of smith..
When can read it as breaking the maya veil, or breking the massification...
It' s the same metaphore...
At the end he won.
He won the choice, it's all matter of choices, now you can choice where to live.
In the false confort of the matrix or in the raw reality.
And this is averyone's choice in our life.
Anyone have to choose between the mass or himself...
There are things yet-written by someone else, yet-thinked , yet-cooked... we can choice...
We can make avry thing by ourself, and this will be ours forever, but thi s will be difficult, or we can buy anything made by somone alese and this will be esesy, but will be of everyone else...
And this is the modern world... all written all thinked... just have to buy, you don't have to do nothing but buy.
And this is the choice...
Even religions are made for this, the give you a spitual path to follow, don't think do it and don't worry...
I choose Zion, i don't even ever had a choice saying the truth... i think the things i say by myself, i have my heart and my soul, i follow my own path.
That's all...
This is not a new message, it saiys nothing new... has only changed the media... avery originale religon says the same thing before the man twisted them for thier convenience...
"Is not the word " is what word means.
The finger that point to the moon... the fool stare the finger, so the world does...
Metaphores everyone, archetipes, words words, words are oly words and dreams are only dreams... but it's not ever true...
So long every one and follow your very heart...
i bow to you.
When he lost his eyes he can see the energy of life... chi, ki, prana, holy spirit, force, call as you want it's the same thing.
In the matrix he saw the code behind , in real world he sees the "magic".
That's alla, nothing more than this..
Why can't he see Trinity then?
Caitlyn
11-06-03, 09:18 PM
Just a friendly reminder… please remember some people have not seen Revolutions yet so use SPOILERS TAGS so you don’t ruin it for them… if you don’t know how to use them, the instructions can be found HERE (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=1495)
Why can't he see Trinity then?
Don't stop to analyze every single thing , can't be an explaination to averything, this in the point. Not every thing needs an explaination and if everything has one this in not the matter. :)
In the movie he can see only the city of the machine, he saw the matrix from outside, that's all why i don't know and i don't care... if i find a good explain i will tell yuo... :) The matter is what is in not out, and of all i've written of you focalised only on a particular... you're staring at my finger...
dtg2001
11-06-03, 11:55 PM
ok people... I hate to sound the sadist here but you all are looking at it from the wrong angle. remember the undertones of the whole series of films. the wool pulled over our eyes and the world we know not being the real world and such. also think on the animatrix shorts and what they showed. Neo is not human nor is the rest of zion. this can be explained by the way neo's powers work outside the so called matrix. and the fact that the machines know the exact amount of people that are in zion... which would mean they would have to know the amount of freebirth's there were. add in the simple sceintific fact a nuclear weapon does a very large EMP when it is set off and 01(the machine hometown) was blasted with a bunch of em. resulting in a very big scrap heap of machines. even with the advancements they would have had the shear blast and resulting emp would have either destroyed, disabled or pacified all the machines.
but you say... wait what about them being pulled out of the matrix into the real world. the real world... oh your right how could i be right with them entering that... boy am i dumb.... but wait.... who said it was real. the architect, the oracle, the agents. who said it was real at all. look at things from the thought of the machines being in the matrix and their internal power supplys and advanced AI being used to work other things while they are there or as slave labor why they are in the dream world. as morpeux if you woke from the dream and it was so real how would u know what was the dream world and what was the real world. you wouldn't in which case that farther backs up my concept. aslo the light comming from neo in the end and his ability to control machines and his oneness is easily explainable with this idea. also it would show that his coding would be differnt. cuz his AI had adapted like computer programs can do if programed to learn and advance like AI. and remember humans dont have computer coding... think about that... why would his coding be needed by the architect. humans dont have coding!!!!
oh well you can now berate me for my ideas. and I can listen to you and fire back at your remarks... but think about what i have said for at least 5 mins... and then tell me if it dont make some sense.
NO NO NO NO NO!!!!! NO!!!!!!
You people are not getting "The Matrix" right, but I don't blame you guys at all, because this whole series is an allegorical action/drama story of the GNOSTIC belief system, and the Wachowskis aren't saying anything because they probably get off on everybody talking and talking and talking about this "new philosophy" so they'll go see the movies and seek out what they believe in themselves.
Maybe there is a connection to Gnoticism, and "death" seems like a viable explanation for returning to the source. But if you say you understand Matrix better than everyone else, shouldn't you be able to answer all of the questions in my original post?
Besides, how do you explain the reference Smith made to Oracle as his creator (when he smashed the cookies off the table). Or why did the Oracle said Smith was the negative of Neo?
valkator
11-07-03, 12:36 AM
hi everyone. we really have some really good thinkers in here. i read thru and saw some very nice understandings. thank you :P
but... i have one thing to say that is gonna be short and i hope you can focus on it ok. i dont need the spoiler stuff cause it is about reloaded...
now remember in reloaded how neo had all those dreams that had purpose. every one of them did... EXCEPT ONE.
you remember when he had that dream where those 2 guys were in the matrix and they smashed thru the skylight on that building and it had a telephone? well just think about that dream that neo had. That one guy got in first right? well the other guy got wasted by who???? SMITH. and what happened when the phone rang again? smith answered it and it looked like he started to transfer thru the phone. that was neos dream remember? now i have thought about it and i am not gonna say anymore because you guys need to think about that scene too. all of neo's dreams had purpose. and so did that dream where smith goes thru the phone and possibly copied onto the person on the other end ohh lets say baine? cause that was b4 baine pulled the knife out following neo, trinity, and morpheus to the ship in reloaded until that one kid said "neo!".
b4 ripping on me. plz think about what i said so that it might explain on how he got to baine's mind.
and by the way... i saw revolutions and liked it.
peace out
valkator
11-07-03, 12:45 AM
i just got done watching that part where smith copies that guy then answers that phone in matrix reloaded
guess who smith copied? baine
guess what... that copy of smith was baine and he answered the phone... so baine is now smith... watch that part over in matrix reloaded
it is in chapter 9 if u have the dvd of it
so that explains how smith got into baine's mind
dont think to hard is what they teach you in school.
you guys were thinking to hard to y smith was in baine
SystemicAnomaly
11-07-03, 01:01 AM
i just got done watching that part where smith copies that guy then answers that phone in matrix reloaded
guess who smith copied? baine
guess what... that copy of smith was baine and he answered the phone... so baine is now smith... watch that part over in matrix reloaded
it is in chapter 9 if u have the dvd of it
so that explains how smith got into baine's mind
dont think to hard is what they teach you in school.
you guys were thinking to hard to y smith was in baine
dude - everybody already knows this. its a given. lol. :laugh:
valkator
11-07-03, 01:04 AM
well i know in other parts of the movie forums this was mentioned earlier. well i wanted it to be heard again cause "possibly", smith could have some how created another personality. so baine would have like a multiple personality.
or something like that. that is y i mentioned those 2 posts above.
i like to get people thinking and rethinking things that people thought of.
there is so many different concepts you can come up with and i put my part in. like everyone else in this forum so i am done.
projectMayhem
11-07-03, 11:06 AM
hi everyone. we really have some really good thinkers in here. i read thru and saw some very nice understandings. thank you :P
but... i have one thing to say that is gonna be short and i hope you can focus on it ok. i dont need the spoiler stuff cause it is about reloaded...
now remember in reloaded how neo had all those dreams that had purpose. every one of them did... EXCEPT ONE.
you remember when he had that dream where those 2 guys were in the matrix and they smashed thru the skylight on that building and it had a telephone? well just think about that dream that neo had. That one guy got in first right? well the other guy got wasted by who???? SMITH. and what happened when the phone rang again? smith answered it and it looked like he started to transfer thru the phone. that was neos dream remember? now i have thought about it and i am not gonna say anymore because you guys need to think about that scene too. all of neo's dreams had purpose. and so did that dream where smith goes thru the phone and possibly copied onto the person on the other end ohh lets say baine? cause that was b4 baine pulled the knife out following neo, trinity, and morpheus to the ship in reloaded until that one kid said "neo!".
b4 ripping on me. plz think about what i said so that it might explain on how he got to baine's mind.
and by the way... i saw revolutions and liked it.
peace out
You already saw Revolutions and were still confused that it was Smith inside of Blaine? I guess things have to be spelled out for you then, and besides that part that you are talking about wasn't even a dream it was actually happening. Where you got the dream from is beyond me.
projectMayhem
11-07-03, 11:14 AM
The Oracle -- the Oracle is just a psychic! She's named after the Delphic Oracles in Ancient Greece where a few thousands of years ago, people would travel to Delphi and ask an oracle for psychic advice. She's no different than Sylvia Browne or John Edward or James Van Praagh or any one of those. She is a human living in The Matrix (life, Earth, the everyday world) blessed with psychic abilities and she's out to tell Neo what she knows about things, what she knows about the future. Look at how she checked his hand in the first movie to see if Neo was "the one". Just like palm reading!
I disagree, I don't think The Oracle was a human living in the Matrix. She was a program created by the creators of the Matrix to control the humans. It was said in Reloaded that everything was just a different measure of control, and she was another one that just happened to make a choice to quit was she was designed for. What she was designed for was to give the humans hope that their "the one" was real. She had these psychic powers not because she actually predict the future but because the the Matrix runs in cycles and since it is the 6th version she knows everything that has already happened before and so she can tell every one what their part in the whole show is. I think the fact that she was different in Revolutions is saying that she realizes Neo was truly the one, but not like any previous "ones", b/c I think the previous ones were created by The Matrix to give people hope and then crush them again because their hope was falsley give, but she saw that Neo was a true messiah and made the choice to hepl them in ways she had never helped anyone before so it would finally be over but I don't think she knew what would happen from there. I hope this made sense b/c I'm not completely sure it makes sense to me yet, but there it is.
rjmcfc86
11-07-03, 05:37 PM
I know i'm not the only one to say the whole of The Matrix trilogy got worse and worse as it went on. The first one was fantastic, something new, something people hadn't seen before and was just facinated by it. But sadly, as the whole thing dragged on, alot of peoples facination became boredom.
From my POV, Empire magazine were very kind reviewing Revolutions 3 out of 5.
I liked the movies although agree the last 2 could have been a bit better.
I too was dissapointed that we didnt see a lot more of the mirovingian or persephone. I think we could at some point be in for another matrix movie as it has been left open for it. I think imho some of you are looking to far into the spiritual side of things. The matrix is a computer program designed to trick humans into thinking they are living life as me and you know it, when really they are in a harvest field being sucked of there energy in order to keep the machines powered.
******************************************************
not sure how to use that spoiler screen thing so please dont read any further if you aint seen the movie.
******************************************************
Neo was told his power over the machines reached not only inside the matrix but to the source as well(machine city). As baine was infected with the smith program neo was`able to see him outside of the matrix program. The phrophecy morpheous belived in was true, the war ended when the one returned to the source(machine city) and not the talk with the architect.
Thats some of mu thoughts, only the wachowski bros know the true meaning.
The Dark Knight
11-08-03, 06:47 AM
I'm sick and tired of people saying that the third instalment of the Matrix is crap cos it aint. Sure it's not as good as the original but its still a great movie that's definitely worth watching. I don't deny that there are a little too many plot holes here and there but at least they alow conversations such as these to take place, allowing people to put there ideas across. What the Wachowskis need to consider is bringing out more films like the animatrix to brush up on quite a few topics to give a better understanding of the whole concept which the last two movies have failed to accomplish. In my opinion this movie was better than reloaded since it wasn't weighed down with so much action but its still not nearly as polished as the first one was.
And no one can doubt that the Zion scenes were amazing and epic even if you thought the movie was a load of bullocks.
It is almost undoubtably that LOTR:ROTK will be a much better film as most people have been stating but how can u compare the two, not to mention comparing it with Star Wars.
But when was it ever even brought up in the two predecessors? I really don't think any foreshadowing was needed. Realizing he could do those things was simply the final rung in his character development ladder. It makes sense to me that he wouldn't reach this final rung until he was towards his end, which obviously wouldn't come until the third movie. He did things in the second movie he couldn't do in the first movie. He did things an hour and a half into the first movie that he couldn't do half an hour into it. It's all about progression and development. He simply didn't realize he could do it until he had reached that final rung.
He even said "something's different" in the second one right as he realized he could do things no other human could do. I really don't think something had physically just changed (i.e. he was implanted with something or whatnot) I think what was different was that he had just reached that final rung. The oracle said "we cannot see past the choices we do not understand". No one understood, aside from maybe Morpheus, that it was possible for a human to do that. Even Neo didn't understand it. He didn't understand that he had the choice to do those things, and thus that avenue was never explored until it was understood - which was seconds before Neo went into a coma.
While it's true that he was progressing throughout, his progress was always consistent. That is, it was always within the Matrix. Nothing he did ever contradicted any physical law as we know it. For all we know such things really are possible in a full-on reality simulation. That, to me, is the difference.
It's not like they pulled it out of their asses and were like "lets just make Neo have telekenitic powers", there was obvious progression of Neo. He never stopped growing throughout the entire series. He was constantly learning, adapting, and realizing his capability. Why should he stop in the third movie. As long as he's alive and has potential, why shouldn't he continue to realize it?
I've always just thought of it as Neo is different. Neo is something special. Neo did things in the Matrix no one had ever done before. He fought agents and survived, a feat previously immpossible. He didn't get lucky or something. He could do things in the matrix no one could do before, simply because he had a powerful enough brain to seperate the "reality" of the matrix with what was really happening to his physical brain and body.
If his brain is powerful enough to do things no one had previously done in the matrix, why shouldn't it be powerful enough to do things no one had previously done in the real world?
Fighting agents and surviving was never impossible; just difficult. I can buy every crazy thing he did inside the Matrix, because I'm willing to accept that he's, perhaps, the "fastest" human of his time. But since when does neural processing speed afford you the types of abilities he exhibits? You can be faster than anyone, and it wouldn't change the fact that you cannot transmit signals over great distances with your head without some kind of device (which was never, ever indicated or even hinted at).
Hell we don't even know how many hundreds of years it has been since mankind was enslaved. He could be some sort of new human who has gone up one rung on the evolutionary ladder. It really doesn't matter to me WHY he could do those things because it was demonstrated throughout every movie that he could do things people couldn't do. Simple as that.
It wasn't inconsistent. Neo was always better than anyone else. Neo was always more powerful. Neo was always different. Things just come at different stages, which is precisely what growth is.
Sure, he could be a human who has evolved with a radio transmitter in his head, but
1) The machines surely would've noticed this.
2) We're told it's been roughly 1,000 years, if memory serves, since the machines enslaved us. Not nearly enough time for such an advance.
3) The movie never gives us reason to believe that such a thing has happened.
Sure, Neo was always more powerful...but all he was doing was dominating a system. He was always more powerful because he was always the fastest. I don't see why that speed would translate into the real world the way it does. Not even in a psuedo-scientific way.
How come you're so hung up on something like this and not on why Trinity was able to bring him back to life with a kiss in the first movie? That **** doesn't make sense to me. :D
I've never quite agreed that it was the kiss that brought him back (though it surely appears that way). Even so, it could still make sense, potentially. Many people have been declared legally dead, and she is kissing him, so it's not a horrible stretch to assume he could "feel" her kissing him, even when jacked in. Not unlike attempting to mentally stimulate someone in a coma, perhaps.
Regardless, I'm willing to accept that, too, because, at the very least, we're not dealing with the spatial differences that Revolutions expects us to accept.
Seems to me it all went quite differently. The Oracle created both Neo and Smith (this sounds crazy but read on), agent Smith referred to her as his creator. Smith and Neo were essentially opposites of each other (mathematically speaking).While it's true that he did call her "mom," I'm convinced that this was in more of a mocking sense, especially considering that The Architect referred to her as the "mother" of the Matrix.
The thing that causes me to believe this, instead of your theory (that she created Smith) is simply this: she told Neo that Smith was the result of the equation trying to balance itself out. She also said that it was her job to "unbalance" the equation. So, if she did create him, she's pretty much contradicting herself. Either the writing is sloppy (possible), or he wasn't addressing her literally (more likely).
Don't stop to analyze every single thing , can't be an explaination to averything, this in the point. Not every thing needs an explaination and if everything has one this in not the matter. :)
In the movie he can see only the city of the machine, he saw the matrix from outside, that's all why i don't know and i don't care... if i find a good explain i will tell yuo... :) The matter is what is in not out, and of all i've written of you focalised only on a particular... you're staring at my finger...Gimme a break. You give some huge, long-winded explanation, and someone points out a fatal flaw in your reasoning, and you tell them not to "stop to analyze every single thing"?
The problem with your dismissal of this question is that it assumes you're right. It only qualifies as "looking at your finger" if we presume that your basic conclusion is correct. But how we do determine whether or not it is correct? By asking exactly the kinds of questions he is. The questions you either can't, or won't, answer.
I'm not buying it.
theshape82
11-08-03, 05:32 PM
am i the only one in here that thinks it was pointless to kill trinity like that?....i mean why bring her back in reloaded if she's just going to die like that in revolutions...that's what really pissed me off....'cause in the end neo being dead is questionable where-as i'm just pissed that they killed trinity
WARNING THIS WHOLE REPLY IS A SPOILER.
(Something about my now officially being a lapsed Matrix fan, REVOLUTIONS sucking, and money being better spent on the Godfather series on DVD).
A lot of interesting comments above. Unfortunately we all seem to be talking about a deeper meaning to this series that could’ve existed, but apparently turned out not to.
I was one of the hardcore believers. Did I not cue for the 1am session with all the other bovine geeks in Sailor Moon t-shirts and spotty teenagers in bad suits and dark glasses to be ONE of the first to see the last installment? Yep. And did I not love RELOADED despite all its obvious and much publicized flaws? Absolutely. In fact, did I not sit through that endless succession of appalling New Metal video clips this year in a pathetic attempt to recapture the magic of those previous two movies? Sure did.
So what happened? How did this film manage to bore me? How is it possible that I looked at my watch to discover that one hour had passed without a single freakin thing happening?
Well maybe it had something to do with the movie opener being that excruciating scene with the Indian family? It never seemed to end. I was so numb when they finally pissed off I was almost beyond caring. Or perhaps it had something to do with the pointlessness of having that first hour at all. It was all just painful exposition, filler needed to stitch together the only two moments that seemed to have been planned at the all – the set-piece battles.
So what happened to the Trainman, what happened to the Indian and his wife, what happened to that French git with the pvc fetish? They simply dropped them without comment for the rest of the movie. Even Morpheus and Trinity had nothing to do (other than to talk nonsensical bollocks in solemn, quasi-religious tones). Oh yeah. And Trinity died. Didn't THAT bring out the best acting in Keeanu. Don't think I've ever seen a man hug a corpse so..um...whatever.
It was as if all the supporting actors had a fight sequence written into their contracts obliging the producers to give them something to do. Need to burn 4mins of cinema? Let’s have all the peripheral characters congregate in a nightclub and talk menacing crap to one another. That should do the trick until we figure out how to get NEO out of his coma.
And where was NEO in this movie? He seems to spend his whole time sitting on a station bench, unconscious or sulking off screen in the bottom of the ship while other terminally dull characters with suspect American accents ponce about doing squat. And where was Smith? I was sitting there praying for him too come in and save this mess. But the “artistic decision” appears to have been to let him do all the interesting stuff practically sight-unseen until the final battle.
What about the ultimate showdown with the architect? Where the hell was that? In fact where was the ending at all? This film just stops. We have a long, visually exciting fight sequence between NEO and SMITH, but the writers didn’t seem to have a clue how to end either that or this movie. So they chose not to. It just stops. The end is so sudden and unsatisfying that they even need to explain the fact to the audience. Jar Jar stands up and declares “Yippee the war is over,” the humans cheer, Morpheus talks some more tedious crap about destiny and shortly thereafter the credits roll.
The crowd I was watching it with just sat there looking around saying, ‘What? THAT’S IT?’
I’ve had a few nights to brood, and I think I’ve figured it out. This film was EP1 all over again. Great production design (excluding the dodgy matt painting sunbeam at the finish) and brilliant special effects, but nothing…and I mean not a DAMN THING…in between.
Mostly pointless, often painful, quite pretty but ultimately capped off by one of the weaker endings I’ve ever seen at the movies. Seriously, did I really wait all these years just to hear that “Love is what makes us human” How trite can you get? BUYER BEWARE.
Ps: love your forum site, people.
[The thing that causes me to believe this, instead of your theory (that she created Smith) is simply this: she told Neo that Smith was the result of the equation trying to balance itself out. She also said that it was her job to "unbalance" the equation. So, if she did create him, she's pretty much contradicting herself.
In Reloaded they say that Architect and Oracle created both Matrix, so they're mom&dad, they're Yin and Yang, the oracle have earing of Yin &Yang ( not the real TAo thery0re true Yin and Yang qithout the circle of the other siede), Oracle is Yin, female caos, Architect is Yang , male, order) like Yin & Yang they equlibrate each other, the equation of which they speak in the movie...
Gimme a break. You give some huge, long-winded explanation, and someone points out a fatal flaw in your reasoning, and you tell them not to "stop to analyze every single thing"?
The problem with your dismissal of this question is that it assumes you're right. It only qualifies as "looking at your finger" if we presume that your basic conclusion is correct. But how we do determine whether or not it is correct? By asking exactly the kinds of questions he is. The questions you either can't, or won't, answer.
You don't have to stare at my words, not even at matrix ones... you have to create your own... for yourself... i'm saying nothing...
I've said what i think Matrix is, but mine are only word, they mean nothing, youo have to look beside them and find out your own truth.
This is what the matrix say, in the first movie in a digital way, in the other two in analogical way...
There's only one truth, you have first to find you point view on it, then you have to reach this truth through this point of view...
That's the only way.
The humankind way.
And i'm not talking of religion nor mystical nor philosophycal thing...
This is physics!
In Reloaded they say that Architect and Oracle created both Matrix, so they're mom&dad, they're Yin and Yang, the oracle have earing of Yin &Yang ( not the real TAo thery0re true Yin and Yang qithout the circle of the other siede), Oracle is Yin, female caos, Architect is Yang , male, order) like Yin & Yang they equlibrate each other, the equation of which they speak in the movie...
Sure, I'd say that fits (especially given the fact that they are also of different races). I fail to see how that ties into what I said, however.
You don't have to stare at my words, not even at matrix ones... you have to create your own... for yourself... i'm saying nothing...
Actually, you said quite a bit, which has in turn sparked this discussion.
I've said what i think Matrix is, but mine are only word, they mean nothing
If words didn't mean anything, you wouldn't use them.
youo have to look beside them and find out your own truth.
My "truth" says that your "truth" defies logic, and is therefore incorrect. My "truth" also says that real "truth" is objective, not subjective, and that any claim to the contrary stems from a deep-seeded ideological pacifism.
This is what the matrix say, in the first movie in a digital way, in the other two in analogical way...
There's only one truth, you have first to find you point view on it, then you have to reach this truth through this point of view...
That's the only way.
The humankind way.
And i'm not talking of religion nor mystical nor philosophycal thing...
This is physics!
This is little more than subterfuge: ff he were really seeing the "life force" of things, he'd have been able to see more than just machines. If you cannot logically reconcile this seeming contradiction, no amount of psuedo-philosophy will do so for you.
Fighting agents and surviving was never impossible; just difficult. I can buy every crazy thing he did inside the Matrix, because I'm willing to accept that he's, perhaps, the "fastest" human of his time. But since when does neural processing speed afford you the types of abilities he exhibits? You can be faster than anyone, and it wouldn't change the fact that you cannot transmit signals over great distances with your head without some kind of device (which was never, ever indicated or even hinted at).
"just difficult". Something that has been attempted and never beaten isn't difficult, it's so much more. Maybe immpossible wasn't the right word, but it was much more accurate than difficult.
Neo isn't faster than anyone. Afterall, it really doesn't matter how fast you are, in the matrix or in the real world, because it all depends on your mental projection of yourself. You control how fast you are. It's all dependent on the users ability to disconnect reality from...reality. It doesn't matter how fast they are. If by fast you ment how quickly his brain could process things, then you can ignore that, but if not...
Neo could seperate reality from his perception of what reality is the best, like no one before him, which is why he was the one. He could do these things because he simply had more brain power. I'll get to this in a sec.
Sure, Neo was always more powerful...but all he was doing was dominating a system. He was always more powerful because he was always the fastest. I don't see why that speed would translate into the real world the way it does. Not even in a psuedo-scientific way.
A little bit of biology:
The brain runs on electricity. Your body runs on electricity. Sensory organs interpret physical stimuli and create electrical impulses by a process known as transduction. If it weren't for electrcity in the body, we wouldn't be able to process/sense anything at all. We wouldn't be able to respond to anything. We wouldn't be able to even breathe. Without electricty, we just wouldn't live.
The brain only uses roughly 10% (varies from person to person of course) of its potential. Take any biology class, or intro to psychology, and you'll probably learn that if the human brain were to use more of its potential it would use more electrcity. It would recieve more stimuli and create more electrical impulses (hihi transduction again) in the body and eventually the brain.
Neo uses more of his brain than anyone else. His brain is more powerful than anyone elses. He just uses more of it than anyone else does. We see this throughout the matrix. As I've said before, it's hinted at all throughout. Hell in the first one they even say things, paraphrasing of course, like "his neuro-graphs are off the charts!!" He processes more than anyone else, which makes him faster in the matrix Although he is physicaly as fast as everyone else in the real world. After all, it isn't how fast our brain can process information that determines how quickly our muscles can movie, that is an entirely physical constraint.
When he sees the light in the real world, after being blinded, there isn't any "implanted radio transmitter"...there are no implantations at all, the matrix itself has absoultely nothing to do with that ability. That ability is an entirely different sense.
We've got a couple senses, we all know what they are so I'm not gonna go over those. How many times have you heard, and been witness to, that when one sense fails the other senses pick up the slack. Blind people can hear exceptionally well. Hell if you saw Beyond Human on TLC on friday you could have seen a blind man pointing out objects in a room using echolocation (that was ****ing amazing)....
Anyways. His brain functions as a 6th sense. He senses electrcity (science tells us if the brain were any more powerful, it would be incredibly connected to electrcity, using more and creating more) as a result of his more powerful brain (which is shown by his excellence in the matrix). Using this sense he can control the electrcity in other things using electrcity (destroying the sentinels). You either have to accept that or reject that, but it doesn't change that he can do it. So he gets blinded. Only makes sense that another sense would pick up the slack. Instead of his eyes taking in light and percieving images, his brain picks up on the elctricty all around him, which is all the machine world is basically, and makes images out of it. Notice how everything was made of smaller things flowing in some sort of a direction, nothing was stationary. Electrcity has to move, it can't be stationary.
As for why he couldn't see trinity, as another poster kept trying to bring up. He could see trinity without any sort of a problem during all points leading up to her death. After the crash is the first time he can no longer see her (its the first time he has to ask where she is). She also happens to have alot of spikes sticking through her body and she is dying. What happens when you die? Your brain stops working. What happens when your brain starts to fail? It stops using electcity. He couldn't see her because she was dying. The amount of electcity in her body before death would have been tiny. Imagine looking for a specific drop of water in a pond. Neo would have been looking at a backdrop of electcity trying to find a vague hint of fading electricty in the foreground, of course he wouldn't have been able to see her.
Sure, he could be a human who has evolved with a radio transmitter in his head, but
1) The machines surely would've noticed this.
2) We're told it's been roughly 1,000 years, if memory serves, since the machines enslaved us. Not nearly enough time for such an advance.
3) The movie never gives us reason to believe that such a thing has happened.
Your first point: All the machines are concerned with is using the bodies of the humans to harness their electricty. If you try to imagine how a machine thinks, knowing this is what it cares about, they aren't going to do a complete genome test on newborns or scan their entire bodies and give them all the tests that real humans would give to understand more about the persons capabilities. If it has a heartbeat, the machines are going to put it into the matrix. If it dies, so what? Just means more food for the rest of the humans. So why would they notice this (by this i'm referring to his evolved brain)? They have no reason to look for it.
Your second point: Now this isn't a jab at you (which I'm sure you wouldn't have taken it as anyway), and this isn't me trying to open up a new arguement because you and I have had debated this all over this forum in all kinds of threads, but it makes perfect sense to me that you would bring up this point, because after all, you don't believe in evolution. It just isn't something you consider possible in the real world, and thus why should it be possible in a fake world governed by the rudamentary laws of our world. I know your belief in evolution is much deeper than simply believing in it or not, but you and I both know the type of evolution that would result in this brain development isn't the kind that you believe in. I can't change your mind on this or present some other kind of arguement simply because this is no longer a point about something in the movie, but a debate on evolution and whether or not it happened, can happen, or will happen in the future.
Also. The idea of evolution fits in perfectly with the fact that he isn't the first Neo, if you want me to touch on that later I can.
Your third point: Yeah it does. It gives us these signs everytime Neo does something no one else can do.
As for the people complaining that the makers were trying to just leave us open for a fourth Matrix movie.
Neo dies in the end. There is no question of this. If you don't think he died, go watch the movie again.
My friends and I have had talks about the ending. Some people think that the matrix was simply fixing the problems that occured due to smith, but that isn't the case. The matrix restarts at the end of the movie, as it does every time after the attack (as stated by the Architecht). What occurs in every matrix? Neo does. Neo changes through every matrix, but some form of him exists in every matrix. It has to, or else the matrix could never restart.
The filmmakers weren't trying to just capitalize on their series by leaving in the oracles line "I think we may" in response to "will we see neo again", they were simply following through with what the Architecht said would happen. He isn't going to go back on his word. He isn't human. :)
The Tribune
11-09-03, 03:13 PM
1.)Just out of curiosity is the little chinese fella called the ghost whp protects the oracle the same chinese guy who helps niobe on the gunship?
2.)I dont think Neo died. I think he will be ressurected and there will be a 4th movie. They never "truly" show neo die.
3.)Im a big matrix fan but in the end wtf was it all really about? I mean its a continuum. It never ends there is going to be future strife between humans and machines. The plot holes scream for a 4th matrix!!
projectMayhem
11-09-03, 03:15 PM
To answer your first question, no. The protector of the Oracle inside the Matrix is called Seriph, like a seraphin angel, so he is her guardian angel. His name is not ghost, Niobe's partner is Ghost.
1. no it wasn't
2: Of course he comes back. But he isn't resureccted. He is most certainly dead. He comes back every time...am I the only one who understood the architecht?
3.see above
In Reloaded they say that Architect and Oracle created both Matrix, so they're mom&dad, they're Yin and Yang, the oracle have earing of Yin &Yang ( not the real TAo thery0re true Yin and Yang qithout the circle of the other siede), Oracle is Yin, female caos, Architect is Yang , male, order) like Yin & Yang they equlibrate each other, the equation of which they speak in the movie...
....You don't have to stare at my words, not even at matrix ones... you have to create your own... for yourself... i'm saying nothing...
I've said what i think Matrix is, but mine are only word, they mean nothing, youo have to look beside them and find out your own truth.
This is what the matrix say, in the first movie in a digital way, in the other two in analogical way...
There's only one truth, you have first to find you point view on it, then you have to reach this truth through this point of view...
That's the only way.
The humankind way.
And i'm not talking of religion nor mystical nor philosophycal thing...
This is physics!
Erm, ok, my main problem with all your stuff is you seem to be fully embracing the pretention-problem inherent in Taoist thought (which i love incidently, despite some of its be-like-the-useless-tree preachings) - basically i feel you're applying it inappropriately. I suspect you're using the classic everything-is-one thing to draw a circle around everything you want this film to be about (i.e. - you seem to think you know some ultimate truth and feel that this film has done a good job of framing the issue). Then you're using the get-out-clause of the words-cannot-communicate-what-must-be-learnt-thru-experience idea (which again, i agree with) to get out of any sort of discussion. Why bother posting then? Basically, you're being very pretentious, and to be honest, you know where you can stick your finger (see, i didn't even need to say it. Must be a self-evident truth of physics ;))
--------
Things for OG:
Ok, so assuming Neo is using more brain-capacity at one time than others (you do know that the old 10%-idea doesn't mean we don't use the other 90% don't you? i.e. The strongest theory being that our conscious mind in particular is formed from whichever areas we're using at that moment) - and he's attuned to electrical fields/activity etc around him......I like all that, but i still have a few issues...
-Why do you think Neo could see Trin? My impression was strongly that he couldn't see biological tissue. Did you notice how he saw Smith well enough in the human guy, but not the electrical representations of the human's-body. Why's that? There was no real evidence either way tho to say he could or couldn't see Trin etc b4 the final accident. I did notice that he laid out his hand for her to put her hand into his tho, which suggested slightly he didn't know where her hand was.
-Incidently, i agree with you on the evolution front. There are so many arguments about how rapidly evolutionary/genetic change can occur - and many posit that rapid generational change is possible (even significant 1-generation alterations are theoretically possible i believe - i.e. environmental effects on gene expression and mutation)
-In what way does the Oracle saying we may see Neo again tally with the Architect's promise to let those who wish to leave the matrix to leave? (that's how i read it all anyway. Why do you think there's a link there? And why do you feel the Oracle's statement doesn't leave the door open to a fourth?)
Ok, so assuming Neo is using more brain-capacity at one time than others (you do know that the old 10%-idea doesn't mean we don't use the other 90% don't you? i.e. The strongest theory being that our conscious mind in particular is formed from whichever areas we're using at that moment) - and he's attuned to electrical fields/activity etc around him......I like all that, but i still have a few issues...
Yeah I know that the brain uses much more than 10% of its actual mass, we are just never using the full 100% at any one time.
-Why do you think Neo could see Trin? My impression was strongly that he couldn't see biological tissue. Did you notice how he saw Smith well enough in the human guy, but not the electrical representations of the human's-body. Why's that? There was no real evidence either way tho to say he could or couldn't see Trin etc b4 the final accident. I did notice that he laid out his hand for her to put her hand into his tho, which suggested slightly he didn't know where her hand was.
I think he could see her because afterall she is human, and has electrcity traveling throughout her. I too don't entirely understand why when he saw Baine he saw Smith, but if Smith is the exact opposite of Neo then his pressence is going to be just as profound and strong, so maybe he can be seen even in the real world. As for the hand thing. It wasn't so much that Neo just didn't know where she was, or knew exactly where she was, putting his hand out there was sorta like saying "join me?", by her putting her hand on his she did so. If he had out and out grabbed her hand, it would have been more like "you're coming with me", which would have undermined alot of their connection throughout the movies.
-Incidently, i agree with you on the evolution front. There are so many arguments about how rapidly evolutionary/genetic change can occur - and many posit that rapid generational change is possible (even significant 1-generation alterations are theoretically possible i believe - i.e. environmental effects on gene expression and mutation)
Yep :) and it had been more than one generation. ;)
-In what way does the Oracle saying we may see Neo again tally with the Architect's promise to let those who wish to leave the matrix to leave? (that's how i read it all anyway. Why do you think there's a link there? And why do you feel the Oracle's statement doesn't leave the door open to a fourth?)[/spoilers]
-When I ment listening to what the Architecht said I ment in Reloaded. Sorry about that. I do feel that her statement does leave the door open for a fourth, I just don't feel it was done by the filmmakers just because they want to make more money by making more movies (as other people have protested against).
Ok well here gos my review of Revolutions.
[/spoilers][QUOTE=OG-] I am a die hard fan of the Matrix and the visiaul effects were incredible. I loved every minute of the APU fight. As did I love the fight between Neo and Smith. But sadly I did not like the ending. I thought it was a horrible disappointment. I say so because I have seen the same tired ending again and again in movies and games. The hero dies to save the world. I would have prefered Neo live and be given his eye sight back. None of you may agree with me I dunno but I was very saddened by the ending of him dying. I also thought some the dialouge was over dramatic at times and corny at others. I give this movie bout a 5 on my scale of movies. If neo hadn't died I might have given it about an 8 but when he died that kind of clinched this movies failure for me. I dunno if that seems biased or not just my view of things. I say Neo Rulez forever.
The dialogue was terrible. The first half hour was nails on a chalkboard.
Indeed Smith had the really corny over the top lines. But I still did not like the self scarafice ending of Neo, if that hadn't happened I might have liked it alot more. Honestly when that happened I was angry and intrigued by the fact the oracle said one day Neo would return. Is it just me or does it feel like there will be a Matrix 4.
DrenaiWarrior
11-10-03, 01:50 AM
I wanna find everyone involved in the making of Matrix 2 &3 and line them up for a big stooge slap!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why god? WHY? When the first was so good... ahh fock it, The bitter dissapointment of it all...I'm gonna go tap the rockies ( :D )
See ya in a six pack
choosereason
11-10-03, 03:46 AM
Here's the thing: why is everyone convinced Neo is human? No one even mentions he might not be. I think, and correct me if I am wrong, Neo is a program, just like Smith is a program. There is a Matrix and a real world that includes Zion, under the earth, and Machine City on the surface. We do not know exactley how programs inhabit human bodies, but we do know that they do: Smith entered the body of Bain early in Reloaded. Neo and Smith are polar opposites, the negative and the positive. They must be the same, i.e., both are programs. This would, somewhat, explain how Neo can travel between the Matrix and the real world without plugging in. It's not easy for him, but he can. This also explains why he can control the sentinals in the real world. (I know that my little laptop machine can be controled by programs.) That also explains why he can see parts of machine city and not things in the real world. The human eyes cannot see, he cannot see Trinity, he cannot see the sky, he cannot even see the fields. He only sees the machines because they are his source of sorts, what the program portion of him runs on/relates to/comes from.
Smith dies because he invades Neo's body, that cannot happen with opposites, they zero each other out. They are of equal strength, so they could have kept fighting eternally, as someone mentioned earlier. Neo had to choose to die, to let Smith take him over. The Oracle, too, had to make that choice in order to be there to remind Neo that he had a choice and that everything has an end. Remeber how programs have a purpose, usually a single purpose. The one, Neo, this time around, was created different: Not with a prupose, but with choice (along with other emotions - the pukey love crap dripping throughout the trilogy). Neo could not know he was a program or he would have needed a purpose, and with a purpose he would never have stopped fighting Smith, a fight with no end. Instead, he had to belive he was a human with choice and to believe he was a human he needed to love, etc.
We were told that the Matirx has occurred five times before, and at the end of revolutions, the Oracle implies that this time there was a "change," because the war ended. I think the only way this could happen was because Neo belived he was a human with special powers and he needed to end the war using those powers. A human would sacrifice himself for other people. Neo, believing he was human and programmed with human emotion, did just that. Had he know he was a program he would not have been able to both beat Smith when necessary and sacrifice himself in the end, those are different purposes (purposi?). The conversation in the train station with the little girl and her father is where Neo first learns that programs can have emotion. I think this is a clue. We take for granted that Neo is human only because of his emotional characteristics.
Smith called the Oracle Mother, so she is the Mother of the Matrix and the Architect is the father. He creates balance, she creates imbalance. Thus, it seems they do the programming. In this 6th Matrix, the Oracle figured out how to get Neo to kill Smith and change the outcome: making him believe he is human. Remeber at the end, the architect tells her its a dangerous game she played and she replied change always is. The Smith program has to be unusually powerful in order to keep order in the Matrix and to keep tabs on the humans during the War. Mathematically, (apparently) there needs to be balance to this program, which allows for the "one," Who is just as powerful but opposite. That's why the one is always inclined to help the humans, opposite of Smith. We do not know how the other ones were treated or handeled as no one currently alive was alive then.
Anyways, the thing is: why do the machines agree to release the "people who wake up," and does that mean that the humans now have to leave those who do not wake up in the Matrix? Didn't the Architec in Reloaded imply that the machines can survive (maybe not well) without the human batteries? What could Smith have done to the Machines that they wanted to kill him so badly? Even if he detroyd the Matrix, couldn't they have just created another as all the times before? Was Smith threatening to take over Machines in Machine City? It would make sense that he was that powerful because Neo can control some of the machines in the real world too.
As for all the metaphors: Every religion is represented in this movie, and all the old themes, every single one, is here. You can take whatever message you want form it. Man v. Woman, Good v. Evil, Christianity, Buddihsm, Gnosticism, romantic love, ying and yang, all of it, its all there...
What do you all think of my theory? Overall, the movie was a SERIOUS disappointment!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yuk!
reply to Choosereason:
YEah, it's a conundrum isn't it. Is Neo a program? (but if so - whose body is he inhabiting? A random guy? Certainly the Archi seemed to say the One is "created" everytime, so that's a strong indication that he is a created construct. I like your theory that it's the introduction [by the Oracle?] of human emotions into his "program" that has produced this novel spin on events. This change. And it was very risky. Certainly the implication is that nothing like Smith emerged before - so maybe his passionate hate of all things human is the flip-side of Neo's coin that has driven him to such excesses? And yes, he going to go on and destroy the machine city too - this is why the machines made this very gentlemanly deal with Neo.] So, other hints of Neo's program-nature - Machine city is considered his Source - they called him a "machine" for the way he could absorb info-implants etc - the intriguing emotions-are-concepts conversation with the family in the train station.
So - we're settling on the idea that the machines have artificially re-introduced behaviours/concepts they would perhaps like to remove, (cause of their dis-orderly nature) because they are forced to recognise them as fundamental and integral to life, structured or not. In fact, the suggestion that machines can settle on these concepts too suggest the all pervading nature of "non-logical" concepts and practices (tho it seems to posit that for machines it's a choice but for humans an emotional imperative?? i.e. maybe that's why Neo was able to choose??? - rather than coz he had human aspects. i.e. the family chose to risk sending their daughter to the matrix etc - was Neo's final choice the very type of logical appraisal that he was incapable of when his love for Trinity made his decision for him during the Archi-orchestrated choice?)
AS for the disappointment, i heartily agree. I felt there was a lot more they could have done, which would have still allowed many webs of conjecture to be spun. As it was it felt like this film didn't advance us ANYWHERE from the second one - i.e. i can't think of anything significantly new in the realm of concepts or character roles that were re-appraised or extended satisfactorally. Some smidgens of extentions, some blurring of the lines...that's what we seemed to get. i.e. an unsatisfactory take-it-or-leave-it undefinedly-homogenous internal-logic. [i didn't want exposition in this one really - but i did want some more demonstration of the reality of things. And a bit of time jumping - i.e. looking back at origins and processes of how Neo/Machine city etc got where he is, would have been suitable etc]
I agree that most religions seemed to be represented in this series throughout - but the overall story followed a decidedly christian format, which i felt was a shame considering the the spread of contexts hinted at previously.
Ah well, look for One answer and get one big disappointment ;)
That all makes sense, it covers up alot of "plot holes", but the one thing that makes me think otherwise is if that is the case, we really can't relate to Neo because he isn't human. Which makes it alot less...fun.
Here's the thing: why is everyone convinced Neo is human?
"Though the process has altered your conciousness, you remain irrevocably human."
-- The Architect
choosereason
11-10-03, 12:50 PM
"Though the process has altered your conciousness, you remain irrevocably human."
-- The Architect
Good point. However, What process was the architect refering to? Neo, to some degree, is human, as the program had to inhabit a human body. I would assume that the Human neo and the program neo are equally important. The Architect seems to have animosity towards humans and little respect. Maybe he knew what the Oracle had done to the One, and was commenting on his opinion that the one this time is too human to win or change anything. Prehaps what happened is that she left the one with human emotion this time around. Or, prehaps, it is always a human who gets infected with the opposite of Smith program, but all the other times it overrides the human aspects too much, and the oracle kept neo clued into his humanity more this time with the love of Trinity as a reminder.
choosereason
11-10-03, 01:42 PM
reply to Choosereason:
YEah, it's a conundrum isn't it. Is Neo a program? (but if so - whose body is he inhabiting? A random guy? Certainly the Archi seemed to say the One is "created" everytime, so that's a strong indication that he is a created construct. I like your theory that it's the introduction [by the Oracle?] of human emotions into his "program" that has produced this novel spin on events. This change. And it was very risky. Certainly the implication is that nothing like Smith emerged before - so maybe his passionate hate of all things human is the flip-side of Neo's coin that has driven him to such excesses? And yes, he going to go on and destroy the machine city too - this is why the machines made this very gentlemanly deal with Neo.] So, other hints of Neo's program-nature - Machine city is considered his Source - they called him a "machine" for the way he could absorb info-implants etc - the intriguing emotions-are-concepts conversation with the family in the train station.
So - we're settling on the idea that the machines have artificially re-introduced behaviours/concepts they would perhaps like to remove, (cause of their dis-orderly nature) because they are forced to recognise them as fundamental and integral to life, structured or not. In fact, the suggestion that machines can settle on these concepts too suggest the all pervading nature of "non-logical" concepts and practices (tho it seems to posit that for machines it's a choice but for humans an emotional imperative?? i.e. maybe that's why Neo was able to choose??? - rather than coz he had human aspects. i.e. the family chose to risk sending their daughter to the matrix etc - was Neo's final choice the very type of logical appraisal that he was incapable of when his love for Trinity made his decision for him during the Archi-orchestrated choice?)
AS for the disappointment, i heartily agree. I felt there was a lot more they could have done, which would have still allowed many webs of conjecture to be spun. As it was it felt like this film didn't advance us ANYWHERE from the second one - i.e. i can't think of anything significantly new in the realm of concepts or character roles that were re-appraised or extended satisfactorally. Some smidgens of extentions, some blurring of the lines...that's what we seemed to get. i.e. an unsatisfactory take-it-or-leave-it undefinedly-homogenous internal-logic. [i didn't want exposition in this one really - but i did want some more demonstration of the reality of things. And a bit of time jumping - i.e. looking back at origins and processes of how Neo/Machine city etc got where he is, would have been suitable etc]
I agree that most religions seemed to be represented in this series throughout - but the overall story followed a decidedly christian format, which i felt was a shame considering the the spread of contexts hinted at previously.
Ah well, look for One answer and get one big disappointment ;)
I think the fact that Smith had all this hatred is another good piont. Prehaps he got strapped with some emotion too, those opposite of Neo.
I think you are right that christianity prevailed, and it was a shame. especially the Neo death scene, so exactely like Jesus' story, very lame. Have you seen Animatrix the Ren. I and II? They show the history of the war between humans and machines, and the idea is that it was the humans who misbehaved and created the problem (for money and power oif course) Thus, it looks like Neo died for the sins of humans...sound familiar, yeah? Maybe there is no one answer, but shouldn't a movie, especially a trilogy, have some plot that is not up for interpretation? it's such a cop out otherwise.
Good point. However, What process was the architect refering to? Neo, to some degree, is human, as the program had to inhabit a human body. I would assume that the Human neo and the program neo are equally important. The Architect seems to have animosity towards humans and little respect. Maybe he knew what the Oracle had done to the One, and was commenting on his opinion that the one this time is too human to win or change anything. Prehaps what happened is that she left the one with human emotion this time around. Or, prehaps, it is always a human who gets infected with the opposite of Smith program, but all the other times it overrides the human aspects too much, and the oracle kept neo clued into his humanity more this time with the love of Trinity as a reminder.
Yeah, i have to concur with that. It could mean that the process of being integrated with a human form has altered the basic task/decision-making he was programmed for. The fact that he may have been designed/allowed to be more "human" in this incarnation maybe facillitated his being influenced by his biological make-up etc. (and hence the extreme outcomes - including Smith's extreme nature).
choosereason
11-10-03, 01:58 PM
That all makes sense, it covers up alot of "plot holes", but the one thing that makes me think otherwise is if that is the case, we really can't relate to Neo because he isn't human. Which makes it alot less...fun.
Yes, well maybe that is the lesson. All this time, throughout 3 movies, you related to Neo and held him up as a hero believing he is human, and the whole time he was the "enemy." Ah, but, we are all the same and to have peace you must respect those around you. If you watched Animatrix Ren. I and II, it expalined how the war began, and it was analagous to all the wars humans have had and all the hatred humans have promulgated, especially slavery and conflicts of the civil rights era. So, it makes me think that the "message" here is nothing new, don't hate or dominate.
I think the fact that Smith had all this hatred is another good piont. Prehaps he got strapped with some emotion too, those opposite of Neo.
I think you are right that christianity prevailed, and it was a shame. especially the Neo death scene, so exactely like Jesus' story, very lame. Have you seen Animatrix the Ren. I and II? They show the history of the war between humans and machines, and the idea is that it was the humans who misbehaved and created the problem (for money and power oif course) Thus, it looks like Neo died for the sins of humans...sound familiar, yeah? Maybe there is no one answer, but shouldn't a movie, especially a trilogy, have some plot that is not up for interpretation? it's such a cop out otherwise.
Yeah, some of the things i was really hoping to see in this "episode" were...
-a balance of religious references to put forward the idea that all religions hold similar things at their core - it's just expression and interpretation that varies.
-a continuation of the mixture of logical exposition/dialectic/explanation and demonstrational suggestion and intimation thru the internal-logic of what unravels. Instead, i didn't see any particular advance in either area, i.e. we know about as much now about this "world" as we did at the end of number 2. Only perhaps the logical exposition by the family in the train station, and machine-centric/electricity-based nature of Neo's gifts, have opened up further avenues of investigation. But overall, a dissapointing lack of these two core forms of appreciation (logical-rational and holistic-instinctive), which i assumed were being used deliberately for the following reason...
-i thought there'd be more useful analysis or analogy concerning the state we're currently in with the inseperable ties between humantiy and technology. A lot of the vital components were in there: machines acting organically (as so many are still based around evolutionary "discoveries"); machines thinking with isolated-logic for the most part (as befits the mechanical make-up of their bodies, which might have facillitated an uncontrolled emergance of AI - and equally, as befits the "mechanistic" thought-processes used by humans when creating/exploiting scientific discoveries etc); the way the "chaos" of the world's complexity enforces itself on any rigid system - and how both are necessary (as we see from the Oracle's existence to help the Archi with his logical consistancy insistance etc - help the machines understand humans etc); Smith's viral properties demonstrating the swift and destructive potentials of technology-out-of-control (or wielded under too tight and uncaring a level of control/rigidity/narrowness-of-scope).
The fact that Neo had to die to contain Smith i like on many levels (and indeed, it also conforms to the Buddist idea of having reached the "highest" state of enlightenment and passing-on from the cycle of life and rebirth - it's just that the Christian interpretation was more overt) - i've still got problems with the story-logic i.e. the actual mechanism of both their deaths - but on a cartoon-superhero/ying-yang-analogue level it doesn't even need explanation - they cancel eachother out, they can't exist as a whole or whatever [and the part of them that is like the nature of the other is always going to stir them up and mean conflict would never be far away, maybe. It needed closure [i unrealistically plumped for the they-both-live-in-some-new-working-symbiosis option, i.e. with Smith somehow redirected to better ends by Neo using his predictability and hate against him somehow (but in a way that needs constant vigilence/adaption/application etc) -i.e. it could have been an analogy for the battle within ourselves to redirect our worst potentials/natures/"energies" [if you like ;)]) to better ends [as suppressing them is useless/doesn't make them go away])
Still, it could have been worse. There are cheesier endings out there than the happy-hippy one above, or the hero-sacrifice they chose. But it was disappointing in the sense that there was no real human element to "take up the torch" of what Neo/Trinity had acheived (i'm not counting our foraging little squirt - just because all he'd really done was be annoying ;) :rolleyes: Perhaps if he'd said something profoundly prescient yet impenetrable in the second one which only became clear now i'd be happy, if only on the satisfying-pretentiousness front ;))
Yes, well maybe that is the lesson. All this time, throughout 3 movies, you related to Neo and held him up as a hero believing he is human, and the whole time he was the "enemy." Ah, but, we are all the same and to have peace you must respect those around you. If you watched Animatrix Ren. I and II, it expalined how the war began, and it was analagous to all the wars humans have had and all the hatred humans have promulgated, especially slavery and conflicts of the civil rights era. So, it makes me think that the "message" here is nothing new, don't hate or dominate.
Or - all (differing) "powers" must be in equilibrium. :hippy-smiley: - it's physics ;)
Redookie19
11-10-03, 08:11 PM
Ok, I'm new to this forum and dont really know how to place in the spoilers thingy so hopefully u people reading this will stop if u dont want anything spoiled for you, so just take the blue pill and stop reading.
I'm goin to make it small so just copy and paste it into word or something to read.
The Matrix in my point of view is summed up nicely. All three movies were awsome and I understood how I choose to understand. I feel the Wachoski bros. wanted to create these movies to get you all to think about them and not to tell you every part of the story because as it clearly states several times in the movie you must believe what you want to believe. Now enough with that jibber jabber. Here is what I believe is going on in the Matrix.
Ok, so we have the Orracle (A Program!) You all must remember this! the orracle sees things happening and can't always do things to stop what she wants. The Orracle sees Morpheous being unplugged and is like ok, I can't do nething about that. Now the Orracle knows what Morpheous is here to do. (find "The One") And of course he does. Neo is "The One" and "The One" is powerful beyond anyones imagination. EXCEPT OF COURSE THE ORRACLE WHO SEES AND KNOWS ALL! She is however just a little old lady who can't do squat. So she uses her powerful mind and use of persuasion (for lack of better word) to tell Neo that he must confront Agent Smith and that they have some kind of bond. So, Neo being as gullable as he is goes out and fights Agent Smith to "Save the Real World" BUT that is not what The Orracle (A PROGRAM) really cares about. Programs just want to live in the Matrix and not have to worry about anything because as we can see Programs are unstoppable in their own terrain (Trainmaster kicking Neos' behind!) BUT as The Orracle sees that Agent Smith is becoming WAY TOO POWERFUL and can do anything he wants. (TAKING OVER PROGRAMS AND PEOPLE) So she decides to get Neo involved (The one thing Agent Smith is nervous about) and of course Neo gets the job done by never giving up and taking his beating until stupid Agent Smith gets nervous and assimilates him. Then the Machine that Neo is plugged into runs a sort of Virus killer type thing (I really don't feel like explaining it so that was the easiest way) and kills Agent Smith and all his offspring which as stated by some of you, they all share a connection. Now, The Machines have noticed Agent Smiths power as well, which is why they were willing to give into Neo's treaty (if he did as he was supposed to) which he did. So now the Humans are safe from the Machines and the Machines don't have to worry about Agent Smith. BUT WHY WOULD THE ORRACLE CARE ABOUT THE HUMANS OR MACHINES YOU ASK? SHE DOESN'T ALL PROGRAMS (cuz thats what The Orracle is) CARE ABOUT ARE THEMSELVES AND THEIR OWN SAFETY IN THE MATRIX. ( :eek: inside the Matrix?) Yes, that is why the hindu guy and his wife wanted to send their daughter into the Matrix so that she could live on her own with The Orracle (A FELLOW PROGRAM) AND! If there are no Humans then there is no Matrix (due to the fact that the Machines won't be able to live because they will have no energy because we scorched the sky!) AND! without Machines there would be no Matrix because the Machines make the Matrix and keep it running. SO THEREFORE THE PROGRAMS ARE JUST TRYING TO KEEP THEMSELVES ALIVE AND IN THE PROCESS HAPPEND TO SAVE THE HUMAN RACE AND MACHINES AS WELL. But another war is innevetable as The Orracle has prophasized (spelling error) And in the end of the movie The Orracle asks The Architect if he will free the other Programs (as he promised) Into the Matrix which is what The Orracle was fighting for. THE SAFETY OF ALL PROGRAMS! And now we get to SuperNatural Neo. He can do whatever he wants inside and outside of the Matrix because he is "The One" and there are no limitations to his power as long as he "Walks Through the Door" And he ofcourse is not dead because in the ending of the movie the little hindu girl creates the sunrise for Neo to see (inwhich he does because you get a scene of how he was seeing light earlier and there may not be another "The One" because there are only 3 movies (hopefully). And also it is stated that The Orracle (Seer or everything) says they may see Neo again. And it would have been stupid of her to say no because she doesn't want to lie to the little girl and say he's dead when we just saw him see the sunrise.
<rant>
Matrix revolutions sucked, thumbs down.
If you are thinking about seeing the new matrix, don't bother, its garbage.
The original Matrix was a great movie, largely because it was so over the top that the action seemed surreal. However, the subsequent offering from the Wachowski's have failed miserably to live up to the first installment, leaving a decidedly Orwellian taste in this movie critic's mouth. The problem of course, is the 2nd and 3rd movies insistence on confusing the audience. The Matrix ends up taking itself a little too seriously, espousing a post-modern neo-bohemian (no pun intended) humanity that can jack into the network and take on a new physical identity. I mean, we all know in real life that computer hackers are really grossly overweight, caffeine addicted, and touch deprived... in other words, they look nothing like Keanu Reeves and Carrie-Anne Moss. The success of the original depended upon this paradigm, that in the real world you are a schmuck, but in the Matrix you can be "The One". For acne-infested teenage boys, this transformation is a strong inducement to see these types of movies. However, this transformation is largely complete after the end of the first movie, leaving episodes 2 and 3 grasping for a story that makes Neo even more powerful as the movies progress. Also, since we already know Neo is "The One", his antics become arrogant and self-effacing. What had seemed very "real" and "worldly" in the 1st film, became "comic book" in films 2 and 3. As a hacker with an alternative superior identity, Neo is an ambitious and complicated leading role. As "The One" inside the Matrix, Neo is a comic book character that fails to suffuse elements of various Marvel superheroes in an original way.
The Hulk and or Superman would dispatch Neo in about 5 seconds, imho.
Some things about the movie that bother me:
1) Keanu Reeves saves the world... I mean, come on, Christopher Reeve, sure, Keanu Reeves, um, no (basically it makes me ponder the question: were the directors on crack when they did the casting?).
2) Anyone that attempts to interpret these films is a moron.
3) Anyone who thinks they can understand these films is a moron.
4) There are a lot of morons out there, based upon the popularity of 2 and 3 as a topic of discussion on the internet.
5) I am obviously a moron, since I wasted money on the movie and actually took time to acknowledge it sucked, I should just keep my mouth shut, but I have to vent somewhere because it was such a bad movie.
</rant>
I have to say that I do not know how I fell about the movie yet. Strange , I cant say I hated it, but yet I am not sure if I liked it either. Was it me or did the programs seems to have more humanity in them as the story progressed, while the the leading human roles seemed to be more robotic?
Chris-Neo
11-10-03, 10:32 PM
yunfat dude i feel sorry for u, i loved the movie its my favorite movie(s) my words cant even do it justice and there are so many things i lvoe about the story and movies that i dont know where to begin
so ill jsut stop but say DAMN I LOVE THE MATRIX, and if im a moron im the proudest moron ever to walk the earth ;D
im new too so i apologize to every1 for not hiding this text but come on its monday night you must have seen the movie by now
and redookie
when the oracle was talking to the architect
i believe she said somethin along the lines of "and what about the others?"- i alwaz thought she was talking about all the humans that were still connected to the matrix(maybe she meant the exiles also but doesnt it make mroe sense for her to be talking about humans)
also
i thought that the oracle said to the architect "do you promise?", not "will you keep your promise?"(ive seen the movie 2 times so if im wrong please anyone tell me) he replied with "what do you think i am human?"
it makes sense to me that he couldnt have promised before becasue he is a program and a promise is something that only humans can guarantee or break
krazychan
11-10-03, 10:59 PM
ooohh.. i wanna see the matrix tomorrow!! buuuutttt.... my dads all @_@ and wants to kno why its rated R >< so can you tell mee <i>what</i> the "sexual content" is...pretty please ^_^
Ezikiel
11-10-03, 11:02 PM
ooohh.. i wanna see the matrix tomorrow!! buuuutttt.... my dads all @_@ and wants to kno why its rated R >< so can you tell mee <i>what</i> the "sexual content" is...pretty please ^_^
There's no sexual content at all, mostly just violence. I hate the MPAA for giving this trilogy an "R" rating, all of them deserve a PG-13 rating.
Redookie19
11-10-03, 11:15 PM
Chris, I'm mostly saying what I believe is going on not actually whats going on although I may be right but it is my belief that the Orracle is only out the help her fellow programs because she could give too craps about the humans just as long as they are still there. And when she speaks to the Architecht she is with the little hindu girl and that gives me the thought of releasing other programs and not humans.
and also the Architect (i really cant spell) is confirming that he will be keeping his promise and letting as many programs free as he can. I may have worded it wrong on the post before this one but what I meant was that he will be freeing them and is promising or has promised something like that.
and yugo or whatever your name is: You really need to be smarter to review complicated movies bcuz ur jibberish is stupid and pointless and you are probably one of those stupid people that question what happend to The Twins. :furious:
ooohh.. i wanna see the matrix tomorrow!! buuuutttt.... my dads all @_@ and wants to kno why its rated R >< so can you tell mee <i>what</i> the "sexual content" is...pretty please ^_^
Comprehensive reviews for potentially offensive content are available on ScreenIt.com (http://www.screenit.com/movies/2003/the_matrix_revolutions.html) and Kids-in-Mind.com (http://www.kids-in-mind.com/M/matrixrevolutions.htm). The former is far more thorough and specific, but does a poor job of summarizing things (which, ironically, the latter is fairly good at).
and yugo or whatever your name is: You really need to be smarter to review complicated movies bcuz ur jibberish is stupid and pointless and you are probably one of those stupid people that question what happend to The Twins. :furious:
I agree I need to be smarter, after all I am here in these forums, which seem to be a weigh station for pimple popping nerds waiting on Morpheus's arrival, "red pill" in hand.
"bcuz ur jibberish"... ROFL, are you even old enough to see a rated R movie? I'm telling mom.
Chris-Neo
11-10-03, 11:50 PM
redookie
see i believe that the oracle is an intuitive program and really means it when she says she cares aboutthe future and the only way to get there is together(which happens they learn to coexist at the end) she also speaks about stuff like her choice to hlep neo in his path(she says it in enter the matrix i think)and at the end she says to sereph "no i didnt alwaz know, but i beleived", since she is intuitive i see her as having some human characteristics and truly cares about everyone
but im not the brothers, its thier story, i would much rather they told us everything they were trying to say so we would stop guessing, like i said its thier story
Chris-Neo
11-10-03, 11:54 PM
and also whats the deal with everyone bashign the fact that the movie has so mcuh biblical references and all that, i love it, i mean hell, its still original, in a language point of view, the tone is different from everything else out there, i jsut see everything as totally origial, some people jsut dont like to think, i mean msot of society doesnt enjoy thinkign philosophically, they like rambo movies and all that crap
anywaz DAMN I LOVE THE MATRIX
Chris-Neo
11-10-03, 11:57 PM
yea so bascially im obsessed with the entire matrix world
i could talk about it forever
sorry to get off subject but does anybody know what level in "enter the matrix" does roy jones jr fight seraph?
Disneyscks
11-11-03, 12:20 AM
This is what I noticed. After the initial frustration of the ending, I had to time to think about it. The movie didnt suck. Others think it sucked because they just didnt hand you the ending on a silver platter. Yeah sure theres holes thats what box sets are there to fill. Be patient and we will all soon know what The brothers W were goin for.
Chris-Neo
11-11-03, 12:23 AM
This is what I noticed. After the initial frustration of the ending, I had to time to think about it. The movie didnt suck. Others think it sucked because they just didnt hand you the ending on a silver platter. Yeah sure theres holes thats what box sets are there to fill. Be patient and we will all soon know what The brothers W were goin for.
yea i forgot about the fact that some answers may come when they sell the box set, that gives me some "hope"
xXLoganXx
11-11-03, 09:35 AM
Hey guys and gals.. new to the forum because I HAD to see what people were saying about the movie. I'll try to be short. Let me start off by saying that these are my sole opinions and please, no one take any offense to what I am saying.
I have been waiting for the sequels to the Matrix since I first walked out of the theater of the original as I knew that wasn't the end of it. I am a HUGE Matrix fan. When Reloaded came out I was "pleased" with it anticipating that the W.Brothers goal was to set you up for a Grand Finale! Don't get me wrong.. the idea of Neo finally realizing his powers and accepting the fact that he is "the one" was awesome. Just as we would all imagine.. somewhat invincible and so on. Even though I had to look past the cheesy sex scene and the horrible Zion party. But let's talk about Revolutions. Just what the heck was the Revolution? I know that a movie can't be completely realistic because it would bore our imagination. But I think ALOT of things weren't completely thought out thoroughly enough, to even make sense! A couple of examples:
FACT: It was proven that an EMP would destroy an incredible amount of sentinels that attacked Zion from Niobes' ship, when she finally returned home.
PROBLEM: What kind of defense system is this. So let's have a bunch of mechanical soldiers with .50cal machine guns stand around and hope they hit some of the 350,000 sentinels that came in swarms? Why wouldn't they just sacrifice their own systems with numerous EMP charges based in Zion? Very dumb!
FACT: It is now the future and we have these awesome mechanical soldiers that can spin their guns and imitate every move we make, let alone seemed to be their major line of home defense.
PROBLEM: We have to reload them with wheelbarrows?
FACT: When Neo was first introduced to the simulation program. He awoke and stated " I know Kung Fu ". Acknowledging the fact that he had received detail information that "uploaded" into his brain from a computer program. Expanding his knowledge in various ways througout the movies.
PROBLEM: When he fights Carter, or Smith in Carters body. He all of sudden becomes Tommy Morrison in Rocky V??
I can go on and on, but I won't bore you too much. I am sure that you can all add to these as well. The first movie was awesome. I mean in everyway. It was like going to an Ice Cream Parlor... ever notice how they always give you just enough hot fudge or just enough sprinkles? That movie had "just enough" everything to make it awesome. Or even.... somewhat realistic for the imagination. Now he's blinded by an electrical current, mind you that would kill you... and seeing electrical pulses in the real world? I had no idea that Neo was going to turn into a superhuman based on the first film, that was a major dissapointment to me. I think there were WAAYYY too many hidden messages in Revolutions. In fact, too hidden. Not once, did I find myself saying "oh, that's why" etc. etc. I was more like saying "what the hell?" Anyway, this is getting way longer then I intended to be. To sum it up.. the Matrix series turned out to be like making scrambled eggs in a way. Ever try to make eggs out of two eggs and it wasn't enough so you add milk to try and get more out of the other two eggs? I think Revolutions was the milk in the series. Almost like, hey we got so much money for the first one and we knew there was going to be a sequel.. let's cut it short and come out with a third one inspired by everyone's curiousity. Oh well, very dissapointed... could of been a HELL of lot better! That's for sure.
Redookie19
11-11-03, 04:30 PM
[QUOTE=xXLoganXx]
PROBLEM: What kind of defense system is this. So let's have a bunch of mechanical soldiers with .50cal machine guns stand around and hope they hit some of the 350,000 sentinels that came in swarms? Why wouldn't they just sacrifice their own systems with numerous EMP charges based in Zion? Very dumb!
PROBLEM: We have to reload them with wheelbarrows?
PROBLEM: When he fights Carter, or Smith in Carters body. He all of sudden becomes Tommy Morrison in Rocky V??
QUOTE]
I have problems with all of your problems.
They cannont use numerous emp's due to the fact that the EMP needs to be charged (Hence: "Link Go charge the EMP") and if you need time to charge them you cant just blow them off every second especially when your ships with the EMPs will knock out the power in your other ships so you have to take the time to get those back online and charge the EMP and by that time you will all have been sliced and diced by the sentinals.
Wheelbarrows were used to give that stupid kid a job to do and a part in the movie. Also you can't just have infinate bullets (bcuz they couldnt use gamesharks in the real world) you have to reload somehow and it takes a human mind to know where to go and which is the easiest path to take to get to the needed destination of the bullets. Would you have rathered the little sprat carry the ammo than use a wheelbarrow?
And of course Neo fights like a boxer in Rocky V because in the Matrix he can move as fast as he wants and break rules to fight but in The Real World he can't fly or move as fast as he can in the Matrix because you can't bend the rules in the Real World. (bring up the being able to stop sentinals and I will slap you and tell you to go watch the movie again) Because as you probably saw as well, Carter/Smith also fought like a lunatic.
Chris-Neo
11-11-03, 05:32 PM
i like all of ur explanations redookie
Chris-Neo
11-11-03, 05:47 PM
so there isnt much talk bout the matrix goin on here anymore, can anybody direct me to a matrix forum that is popular?
so there isnt much talk bout the matrix goin on here anymore, can anybody direct me to a matrix forum that is popular?
There've been roughly 30 posts over the last day and a half. If that doesn't satiate you, run a search on Google.
projectMayhem
11-11-03, 05:59 PM
Yeah I was quite exhausted on this Matrix discussion. My head began hurting.
Chris-Neo
11-11-03, 11:49 PM
hey everyone out there
here is a ?
in the first matrix are the kids that are staying with the oracle exiles or are they jsut kids that are part of that .01% that rejects the matrix and are eventually freed?
jamesglewisf
11-12-03, 02:09 AM
The action scenes in the movie were great, but the rest of it was pretty lame.
I hadn't thought about the wheelbarrow thing. That's funny.
I got tired of everyone talking to each other in monotone voices with terse sentences. The romance between Neo and Trinity was overdrawn and boring.
I also thought that it tried to hard to be deep. Just get back to the action.
And then, of course, just like every other movie nowadays, they had to show 5 seconds worth of breasts. It wasn't even a main character. It was just during a pan of the camera across a crowd. Stupid.
dajusta
11-12-03, 02:47 AM
after seeing Revolutions twice in theaters already, i really want to start a good thread.
i'l start off by asking a question that all my friends have been asking.
Q. Was the ending of Revolutions kinda weak? Did it leave too many unanswered questions?
I have two questions....
1. What's the deal with The Oracle being "dead" in the machine world , yet at the end we see her on the bench alive and well???
2 What about Neo....did the machine world take him in? If not, where is he???
Disneyscks
11-12-03, 02:55 AM
[QUOTE=xXLoganXx]
PROBLEM: What kind of defense system is this. So let's have a bunch of mechanical soldiers with .50cal machine guns stand around and hope they hit some of the 350,000 sentinels that came in swarms? Why wouldn't they just sacrifice their own systems with numerous EMP charges based in Zion? Very dumb!
PROBLEM: We have to reload them with wheelbarrows?
PROBLEM: When he fights Carter, or Smith in Carters body. He all of sudden becomes Tommy Morrison in Rocky V??
QUOTE]
I have problems with all of your problems.
They cannont use numerous emp's due to the fact that the EMP needs to be charged (Hence: "Link Go charge the EMP") and if you need time to charge them you cant just blow them off every second especially when your ships with the EMPs will knock out the power in your other ships so you have to take the time to get those back online and charge the EMP and by that time you will all have been sliced and diced by the sentinals.
Wheelbarrows were used to give that stupid kid a job to do and a part in the movie. Also you can't just have infinate bullets (bcuz they couldnt use gamesharks in the real world) you have to reload somehow and it takes a human mind to know where to go and which is the easiest path to take to get to the needed destination of the bullets. Would you have rathered the little sprat carry the ammo than use a wheelbarrow?
And of course Neo fights like a boxer in Rocky V because in the Matrix he can move as fast as he wants and break rules to fight but in The Real World he can't fly or move as fast as he can in the Matrix because you can't bend the rules in the Real World. (bring up the being able to stop sentinals and I will slap you and tell you to go watch the movie again) Because as you probably saw as well, Carter/Smith also fought like a lunatic.
Problems with problems that have problems
Ok Emp this emp that. Lets step back and think about it. What do emps do. Destroy anything electronic. Thats right anything and everything electronic. Least thats what the discovery channel says.So you cant very well use an emp and have everything work right then and there can you.Not even in Matrix land the first movie proved that they used the emp right before squiddie killed them from the inside. So you mean to tell me that humans working barely above the stoneage can use and emp and their computers and ship will still work but an advanced race of bots and puters with AI no less cant figure out how to sheild themselves from it? The wheelbarrow thing was stupid only because it was a setup. A setup similar to the red shirt guys of star trek. You know someones bout to die. There are definate holes but remember......ITS JUST A FRICKIN SILLY MOVIE. And again this was a worldwide release so the Matrix box set WITH DIRECTORS COMMENTARY is but several months away. So chill everyone and stop taking the fun out of the last few original ideas moviemakers have.........SHEESH
Mary Loquacious
11-12-03, 03:02 AM
Q. Was the ending of Revolutions kinda weak? Did it leave too many unanswered questions?
Yes.
My feelings upon seeing Reloaded were mixed, but I wanted to give the whole shebang the benefit of the doubt and wait until I saw Revolutions to pass judgement.
My judgement is this: the first film accomplished everything it seemed that the Wachowskis wanted to accomplish, both story-wise and action-wise. The last two installments just prolonged the storyline rather than enhancing it, mucking it up with a lot of philoso-babble about choice (so much more subtle and thought-provoking as it was presented in the original) and then ending on the same basic note as the first movie.
Even the fight sequences were nothing new, as cool as they looked. Using so much CGI took away from the inventiveness and the impact. The only possible exception would be the invasion of Zion, but even that didn't affect me half so much as the Battle of Helm's Deep in The Two Towers.
I felt The Animatrix actually did a much better job of filling out the mythology and exploring the possibilities of the world of the Matrix.
Disneyscks
11-12-03, 03:03 AM
I have two questions....
1. What's the deal with The Oracle being "dead" in the machine world , yet at the end we see her on the bench alive and well???
2 What about Neo....did the machine world take him in? If not, where is he???
To the first question......Open your mind to a different point of view. NEO is nothing more than an antivirus program. What does Norton do on your puter it keeps viruses(Agent Smith) from destroying your system and saves corrupted files (everyone that smith copied himself onto) So the Oracle the obscenely cute settings girl "I made that for Neo" go back to being alive. Thats one possibility.
Question number two I will say no he isnt dead cause they give you a point of view through his Night Bright vision just before "The Nano Head" takes him away.
Chris-Neo
11-12-03, 10:23 AM
i really dont know what to happened to neo, you can assume but it may not be what thebrothers meant, n its thier story, but as far as i can tell all the other scenes where you see the "machine energy", (since neo cant see his ship or trinity)he is a silouette, or basically jsut doesnt light up, but after he fights smith and the machine takes him away hes jsut a big ray of light, "Whoa!"
redookies comments on the emp were right, you could use mroe than one emp you jsut had to b sure that everything was off before you did it, but then ud have to reboot everything n then charge another emp, it jsut wouldnt work fast enough to be a good defense
Try to look at the matrix as a trilogy as a whole, sicne it is all one story and one main idea it can only blow ur mind so much, i dont understand what people were looking for in reloaded n revolutions, the 1st matrix was like the introduction to a paper, it blew ur mind because the whole idea of the matrix was jsut great,not to mention every other aspect of the movies(costumes,music,action,tone of conversation) but since the next two were about the same world, there was a limit to what they could do(thats why u need to look at the sotry as a whole), everyone says it could have been better, id like to c what others could have thought up, anywaz its the brothers story they made it not us, i personally see the next two movies as groundbreaking as the 1st one, but everyone hold the 1st one on such a high pedestal, to me reloaded did exactly what it should have done, it took the 1st groundbreaking/mindbolwing story and flipped it destroy all ur confidence that u know "what the matrix is?", that was one of the most popular adverstiment for the 1st one
im sorry that others dont feel the same, it seems like many people now a days dont have anything good to say, they wouldrather talk crap about the pieces of art other create, i mean theres people that dont like KILL BIll?? waht the helll??? anwaz sorry to those that think i have no clue what im talokin bout but "WHOA" the matrix is the best trilogy/story/movie EVER!!!!!!!!!!11111
Chris-Neo
11-12-03, 10:33 AM
alot of people have the opinion that there was alot of meaningless babble in reloaded and revolutions, but it is obvious that the W bros didnt leave anything up to chance, it is obvious that everyline,every prop, every conversation had a purpose and was meant to fuel the story
ex. in reloaded when trinity jumps off the motorcycle in the beginning and one of the cops says "OH MY GOD" he could have said a million things but it was meant for him to say that,
also alot of people dont like how religious reloaded n revolutions are, how much underlining christianity they have in them, but jsut go back and watch the 1st matrix, the word jesus christ must be used at least 7 times, and waht about the beginning when the guy comes to get that disk " your my savior man! my own personal jesus christ"
im sure u guys can come up with plenty counters so let me know what u think
Chris-Neo
11-12-03, 10:47 AM
im my opinion one of the reasons so many people dont liek this movie is because they dont like to think about things, they want a rambo movie that has a simple " im a strong ass guy and ill use my bravery/strength/courage to save the world", buttell me hasnt that been done so amny times before, and its still being done today
please inform me if im wrong but there has been no other movie that i know of that has such a diverse selection of themes on a philosophical lievel, of fate, destiny,hope, love, belief in the unknown and what makes us human
love-not to many people like it, either becasue of the acting, or the development between trinity and neo, but i do, the sex scene shows how much love they have for each other and how passionate they are, and the moves quesiton how powerful love is(like when trinity kisses neo n brings him back to life in the 1st one), not to mention the love of zee for fighting in zion willing to risk her life to see link
belief-the whole movie challenges yourself to think about what you believe in, do u beleive in destiniy, or free choice, are we all jsut doing things according to someones plan, or do we decide waht we do,
also do u beleive in miracles?
in the 1st matrix was it a miracle that cypher wasnt able to kill neo?, or was that jsut a lucky thing that tnak didnt die n instead came back to kill cypher,
do u believe in chance and accident?
there are other but im getting tired
sorry everyone,
and oh yea doesnt anyone like the editing in reloaded (when they are all sitting in the room tlkaing about what they have to domorpheus is taling bout destiny, and that night holding the very existence of thier meaning)
it flashes back and forth to before they start killing the electricity and then already in the act, and at the beginning its great how they forshadow with trinity woopin ewveryones ass, n breaking through the glass, it pulls u into the movie so much, then when its really happening your like "OOOOOOOO i get it" wow sorry ill stop
Chris-Neo
11-12-03, 10:56 AM
damn im sorry but im revolutions the idea of does our life have a purpose comes up
well does it? doesnt it? is the matrix trioliogy just meant for u to question what u tihnk or are the brothers trying to say waht they think, n have u chew on it for a while?
and all those things that smith says to neo at the end about all the things that we create to find purpose in life, is love real or not?
this is why matrix is incredible, not just casue all the badass action(not jsut physical but conversation action) but cause what it makes u quesiton, and another piece on editing, when neo is talking to the architct , it flashes back n forth to trinity fighting the agent, wow isnt that great ok thats it ill really done now, unless people talk to me, so if u jsut want me to shut up then i guess dont respond
sorry n thanx
JANthology
11-12-03, 09:16 PM
my two cents:
it has been a great time filler to read up on what you guys thought of the matrix trilogy, some fascinating ideas out there. IMO reloaded was a great movie, there were holes yes, as with every other movie made. JUST like the star wars trilogy, people bashed the crap out of it, but a couple dacades later, 'star wars' is held with such esteem, that it should be in the movie hall of fame.
Nonetheless you must all remember that the Matrix trilogy is a movie, NOT the bible. It may cross refrence with the good book, but it is a story. Everyone out there wishin on how much better it could have been, because this shouldve happend or this shouldve happened has to step back out of they're egos and look at the big picture. The brothers W though creators of the movie, are also just two more opinions on how the movie shouldve been displayed, and thats the way it was displayed.
And everyone comparing it to ROTK has to remember one thing also... you can't say LOTR trilogy will succeed or fail like the Matrix trilogy because of one simple fact... the matrix was an original idea straight to movie. LOTR is and original idea translated first into a book, and the movie is going to follow those guidelines.
All in all I love the Matrix trilogy for what it is. A great movie, and a great discussion topic, bravo to everyone, keep the ideas rolling.
Ive already seen matrix revolutions and Im not totally sure if neo died in the end, many people at my school say he died whereas many say he didnt. Can someone tell me if he died or not and please give concrete evidence in your explanation.
Next time, please use spoiler tags.
And if you want an answer to that question, read through this thread. It's been asked before. Your demand of "concrete evidence" also smacks of absurdity...if such obvious evidence existed, you probably would've noticed it on your own.
I have one question about this movie. I'd appreciate it if anyone could answer:
During the climactic punch-up between Neo and Smith, Smith asks Neo, "Why do you carry on when you should just lie down and give up?" or something like that. What was Neo's reply at that question? I didn't catch what he said. Does anyone remember? I'd appreciate a response.
I have one question about this movie. I'd appreciate it if anyone could answer:
During the climactic punch-up between Neo and Smith, Smith asks Neo, "Why do you carry on when you should just lie down and give up?" or something like that. What was Neo's reply at that question? I didn't catch what he said. Does anyone remember? I'd appreciate a response.
"Because I choose to."
Thanks! That answers a question that has been gnawing at my mind for some time! :D
Heres an answer to everyones WHY and HOW? questions about the Matrix trilogy: Because. Im serious....Sometimes I think we need to step out of the role of nit picking and enjoy a movie for what its worth, not what we are expecting. I of course only means sometimes, nit picking and asking why and how is a normal thing, but sometimes it is cool to just enjoy what you get for what its worth. A movie is not bad just because it wasnt what you expected, it may disappoint you, but that in an of itself doesnt make it "Bad", just not as great as you wanted. I think I rate the trilogy as a whole in the 2 and a half star range.
Heres an answer to everyones WHY and HOW? questions about the Matrix trilogy: Because. Im serious....Sometimes I think we need to step out of the role of nit picking and enjoy a movie for what its worth, not what we are expecting. I of course only means sometimes, nit picking and asking why and how is a normal thing, but sometimes it is cool to just enjoy what you get for what its worth. A movie is not bad just because it wasnt what you expected, it may disappoint you, but that in an of itself doesnt make it "Bad", just not as great as you wanted. I think I rate the trilogy as a whole in the 2 and a half star range.
I don't mind getting something other than what I expected. I did not expect The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring to be what it was, but I liked it all the same. Getting something other than what we expect is not inherently a problem...unless what we were expecting was something which made sense.
More importantly, most of the things we were expecting were things the series CAUSED us to expect. The second film's job was, in essence, to ask questions. We can hardly be blamed, then, if we watch the third film with the expectation of answers. We were led to expect that, and then denied it. As such, I think the complaints are perfectly valid. They're also in line with what you're saying seeing as how virtually everyone acknowledges that, in terms of raw entertainment, the film stands up just fine.
I have been thinking ...Zion is not in the real world . Why? :
1. The Nebuchanezzer (the hovercraft) and all the other ships were made in the usa around the year 2100, which makes sense with the point that Morpheus believes that they are around the year 2199 but he's not sure. The architect (ref. to Reloaded)however says that there are 5 matrix's, before this version and they have destroyed zion 5 times before that. So that doesn't make sense with the fact that the materials, hovercrafts and APU's etc. , can't be remainders of the war just before the "first matrix" as the people of ZION seem to believe.
2. The architect refers to the people of ZION as the people as "the minority if unchecked would be an escalating probability of disaster"
(so what I conclude out of this or "machine like thinking" that they(machines) know about it and just added another level to the matrix like they refer in the code intro's in the 3 movies.)
3. The Matrix online (the upcoming video game written by the brothers) will have no gameplay in zion because there is no reason for zion anymore (peace in the 7th version of the matrix is like final day of creation of the world (ref.to the biblical story when god created the world in 6 days and the 7th day he rested because work was completed)
4. This perfectly explains why neo can hack into The Matrix without being jacked in, and Agent Smith getting into Bane.
5. The spoon that neo gets in Reloaded from the orphan by the kid, there is no spoon, even in the "real" world
6.The way Neo "sees" the real world (orange code)
Let me know what you think.
Disneyscks
11-13-03, 08:33 PM
[QUOTE=jrs]I have been thinking ...Zion is not in the real world . Why? :
1. The Nebuchanezzer (the hovercraft) and all the other ships were made in the usa around the year 2100, which makes sense with the point that Morpheus believes that they are around the year 2199 but he's not sure. The architect (ref. to Reloaded)however says that there are 5 matrix's, before this version and they have destroyed zion 5 times before that. So that doesn't make sense with the fact that the materials, hovercrafts and APU's etc. , can't be remainders of the war just before the "first matrix" as the people of ZION seem to believe
2. The architect refers to the people of ZION as the people as "the minority if unchecked would be an escalating probability of disaster"
(so what I conclude out of this or "machine like thinking" that they(machines) know about it and just added another level to the matrix like they refer in the code intro's in the 3 movies.)
3. The Matrix online (the upcoming video game written by the brothers) will have no gameplay in zion because there is no reason for zion anymore (peace in the 7th version of the matrix is like final day of creation of the world (ref.to the biblical story when god created the world in 6 days and the 7th day he rested because work was completed)
4. This perfectly explains why neo can hack into The Matrix without being jacked in, and Agent Smith getting into Bane.
5. The spoon that neo gets in Reloaded from the orphan by the kid, there is no spoon, even in the "real" world
6.The way Neo "sees" the real world (orange code)
I believe that Zion was the real world and ill get to why in a bit but first I have some theories.
1.You are right about the timeline. Because of the second movie we know that the current Zion is Version 6.0. We also know that its about 100 years old because of Morpheus' pre rave speech. He says that they all know that Zion has been there for one hundred years. But we also know that there were 5 versions before it. So does that mean that its been 600 years since the machines won the war? Possibly they never tell you how long each version lasted before it was wiped out. All they did tell you was that it was destroyed 5 times. But ill go ahaid and say I think the matrix is around 600 years old if not more remember the very first matrix failed due to the fact that they modelled it after UTAH hehehe. As for Zions hovercrafts and apus simple. They are the remnants of the last Zions war with the matrix,and the one before and so on and so on (VisaV) sorry couldnt resist the quote. Ya see each current version of Zion was started by the previous version of "the one" And the first people of whichever version of Zion had remnants of "the great war"(I mean the battle to the end between the previous versions Zion vs the matrix) before it to build off of or piece back together.
2.The code intros start off in the MATRIX not in Zion least im sure of the first two. Episode one starts off with Trinity IN THE MATRIX having a conversation with Morpheus about having found Neo. Episode two starts off with Neo dreaming about Trinity dying IN THE MATRIX and Three started out with a review of the the second episodes ending. As for what the Architect says remember hes part of a yin and yang thing. His Yang being the oracle. In every version she was responsible for humans rebelling because she was responsible for making the programing accepting to humans in the matrix. Remember if the Achitect is the father "Then she would undoubtedly be its mother" And what has she done help the humans each time.
3.There were 8 "days" in the matrix the first Version failed.
4. I have a theory about this point brought to me by my roomate saying he thinks Neo is a program too. In the animatrix in the Aeon flux look alike story. The sentry asassin that was taken prisoner. They in a way reprogrammed its A/I To protect humans instead of kill. Whos to say that wasnt the first version of the one. Maybe over time and alot of time we are talking about, its absorbing all aspects of humanity and then figured out how to get into the mind and take control of the body. Agent Smith did it with Bane. Its like taping over a copy of Barney with Dark Angel. He took over Banes mind therefore he also to control of Banes matrix self as well as Banes real body.
5. The spoon kid from the first movie was with a bunch of kids in the first movie that the Oracles assistant at the time called "The hopefulls". Could she have been meaning hopefull that they were possibly Neo? I think so, just random children that at a young age were evolving out of the matrix's programing. And more than likely after Neo was discovered to be the one,was freed from the matrix himself.
6.ill go with you on this one because I think Neo is another program.
Please everyone dont bite my head off this is only my theory
Redookie19
11-13-03, 11:00 PM
disney, your long posts need to stop... Get them more to the point because first off I hate your name (I work at Toys R' Us which is in very close with Disney) ;) and second off I get lost in ur post after "I think the Matrix is..."
Disneyscks
11-13-03, 11:12 PM
disney, your long posts need to stop... Get them more to the point because first off I hate your name (I work at Toys R' Us which is in very close with Disney) ;) and second off I get lost in ur post after "I think the Matrix is..."
I appologize to everyone I will never post a novel again.
But as for Disney,they are milkin the lifeblood out of the
country. Oh and dont take yourself seriously its sad.
I appologize to everyone I will never post a novel again.
But as for Disney,they are milkin the lifeblood out of the
country. Oh and dont take yourself seriously its sad.
Ah, that was barely a chapter. But interesting. As for disney, well, Walt's history ain't pretty (hiring ex-nazi death-camp orchestrators to run kiddie-advertising science-progs for a start), and their slant on kiddie-culture has always been a bit too dumbed down, merchandising orientated (and even plagueristic) for my liking.
But, back on topic....
Why oh why oh why couldn't the bros have attempted a conscious-instinctive cross-over construct? Eh? That's what i wanted. A great big theory of everything. String theory tied in a bow. Some way of incorporating instinct's flow into our analytical rows of data and get-up-and-go instigators.
Something practical amongst the tactical vaguery. That would've been a sight to see.
...
As it is - there are still loads of things to debate about the nature of this world it's true. i.e.:
-the idea that Neo is an uncontrolled (uncontrollable, only guidable) emergant program. That fits with the oracle sifting thru the kiddie-hopefuls too - and with all the other stuff, like the Archi saying the One is made, and the machine city being his "source" etc.
-What the hell was the spikey-head-machine thing's role in Neo's death?? (and did that view, apparently thru Neo's POV, really mean he was just resting, and not dead? Did it mean his flesh was dead but this computer-"soul" lives on?)
-The idea of life being about the journey not the arrival (i.e. Neo's continuation of the fight, even tho Smith see's it's outcome as clear. He chooses to keep fighting. I got this overall impression of means over ends anyway)
-Can anyone remember what the quote above the Oracle's kitchen door meant? They referred to it again in Rev in a kind of "there's your answer" way.
And on and on.
i have many issues with this series... and let me say first of all and foremost i was totally dissapointed. here are some of my complaints... and please ponder these before you die-hard fans tear me a new one...
1. the second movie was nothing but spacefiller in my mind... think about it... take the second movie... maybe take the few small bits from it that were relavant, and add them to the beginning third and the 2nd is pointless eyecandy.
2. the overall ending of the series is a bit too vague and a total let down. nuff said.
3. YES... the effects and cinematography were superb, but can anyone say "polished turd"? some of the worst films of all time were visually appealing... aka the last installments of the batman franchise... need i say more. effects and action should NEVER come into play... story is all that matters..
this list could go on forever in my eyes... and i could get into more detail, but i hate spoilers... in any way, shape, or form, so i will say no more... except i honestly feel that the wachowski brothers wanted to make the star wars of our generation... only problem... they had a cool idea... they just couldn't pull it off... they tried to hard...and they took a simple, but sweet concept and made it something it should have never been... and i'd be willing to bet money before they even finished writing the first movie the word "trilogy" came out a lot... bottom line... all the movies after the original are third rate... and this is no starwars.
Do you honestly thing Return of the Jedi is a great film? I don't. It is a lackluster muppet show with sporadic good acting. The final battle in space is some of the best action on film to date, but I felt this film was when the corruption of George Lucas by cute fuzzy characters began. Also, saying that effects and action should never matter, only story, flies in the face of what film is at it's heart. If story is the ONLY concern, books are almost invariably better in my mind. As Hitchcock stated, "Going to the cinema one should experience cinema, not filmed conversations."
-S
my two cents:
It may cross refrence with the good book, but it is a story.
So is the bible. There is not a single shred of empirical evidence stating otherwise. Not one.
-S
Redookie19
11-14-03, 04:58 PM
Disney, I agree that disney is milking away our money, but I do partially work for them so I had to say SOMETHING...
and for all you people thinking Neo is some kind of program... lemme just ask if you guys saw the movie because last time I checked...Programs weren't plugged into the Matrix in one of those pink bubble things. Oh and another thing...Programs cannot exist in the REAL WORLD because they are COMPUTER PROGRAMS...When was the last time you saw your video games walking around your houses?
but that just my opinion of course.
So is the bible. There is not a single shred of empirical evidence stating otherwise. Not one.
Please relegate any amateur theology to its own thread in a more appropriate forum. Thank you.
Please relegate any amateur theology to its own thread in a more appropriate forum. Thank you.
Sorry, a bit new to this forum and not sure what flies.
Thanks :)
Sorry, a bit new to this forum and not sure what flies.
Thanks :)
No problem. Just about every topic imaginable can be discussed here, so long as it's in the right place. On another note, however, it's customary to include some sort of underlying logic or supporting argument when openly defying the core beliefs of roughly 2 billion people. :) At least, in my mind.
Anyway, anything'll "fly" here if you throw it hard enough, so to speak. :)
Disneyscks
11-14-03, 06:01 PM
Disney, I agree that disney is milking away our money, but I do partially work for them so I had to say SOMETHING...
and for all you people thinking Neo is some kind of program... lemme just ask if you guys saw the movie because last time I checked...Programs weren't plugged into the Matrix in one of those pink bubble things. Oh and another thing...Programs cannot exist in the REAL WORLD because they are COMPUTER PROGRAMS...When was the last time you saw your video games walking around your houses?
but that just my opinion of course.
Did you even try to open your mind? Dude this is all theory nothin but. No one frinkin knows what the writers were goin for and wont know till we get our box sets and directors cut. So till then dont be such a killjoy.I mean do you really have it on good authority what the Wachowski bros meant by the ending? If so then say so or let everyone have there THEROIES cause thats all they are. Its a freekin forum
The Silver Bullet
11-15-03, 10:50 AM
"The Wachowski Brothers, in my mind, have tried to strike a balance between two disparate extremes, and have failed. Their philosophy is too heavy for their action. Their action is too redundantly meaningless for their philosophy. In trying to bridge the opposite ends of the spectrum [the intelligentsia and the thick], they have ultimately fallen short."
– from MY SHORT REVIEW (http://esotericrabbit.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_esotericrabbit_archive.html#106888380834263537)
Hmm, nice n succinct Silv, and those reviews that guided you are beauts too.
To Redookie...
Didn't you notice Smith inhabit a human body?
And - do you always spend your off hours living out your corporations mission statement??
PenclArtst
11-16-03, 05:31 PM
The Thin Red Line. Mission to Mars/ I can name movies all day if you'd like.
Sometimes a degree of subtlety is a good thing for an action flick...but considering the pseudo-philosophical pretentious bull**** of the Wachowskis, I don't expect Revolutions to be any more mysterious than its awful predecessors. The Matrix is the ultimate rich stoner kid movie, something to discuss while toking hydro in your best friend's basement. The action isn't original. The story is much more pretentious than it needs to be, and is a lot less clever than the filmmakers think it is. And its unpaid debt to real action cinema is a perfect example of American studios knowing the words, and not the music, to the current Japanese ballets of violence. They rip these movies off shamelessly and pass it off as original cinema. It's awful.
GOOD LORD!! are you mad!?! if you don't like reloaded, fine. it was different. fine. the last one, expectations tend to run wild. but don't dare insult the first Matrix. that took a common idea (AI's taking over) and gave a new spin that blew everyone's mind. on top of that, new cinemaphotography that gave us another rush that left us gasping for breath. so back off. there is no spoon!!
GOOD LORD!! are you mad!?! if you don't like reloaded, fine. it was different. fine. the last one, expectations tend to run wild. but don't dare insult the first Matrix. that took a common idea (AI's taking over) and gave a new spin that blew everyone's mind. on top of that, new cinemaphotography that gave us another rush that left us gasping for breath. so back off. there is no spoon!!
Hmm, tho i understand what you were saying Steve, i have to agree with Pencl here. I was happy to see Hollywood apeing some good aspects of "Eastern" films. And the AI spin was novel - so in that sense i felt the combination of influences was justified (even if so many of its elements have been done better elsewhere - the M unified a lot of things. It felt pat. It had it's flaws etc, but it had a feeling of open-ended Taoist thought amongst the cartoonery and standard christian story-tree.)
But then i don't have a basement. Or any hydro. Dammit, i must just be wanting to ape these philosopher wanna-be's you talk of ;)
PenclArtst
11-16-03, 08:29 PM
thanx, golgot
magnet41
11-18-03, 12:42 AM
I liked revolutions but i have some questions. Was the little girl sati tranning to be the next oracle. Smith and neo bleed, Why does smith bleed is he human. After taking over the oracle smith can see the future as she did , :) but she tricks him in the end, How does she survive. Is neo dead, Will there be more matrix movies
I liked revolutions but i have some questions. Was the little girl sati tranning to be the next oracle. Smith and neo bleed, Why does smith bleed is he human. After taking over the oracle smith can see the future as she did , :) but she tricks him in the end, How does she survive. Is neo dead, Will there be more matrix movies
There's certainly suggestions that Sati is the next step on from the Oracle - ie. the oracle never demonstrated the ability to control the matrix in the way sati seems to with the sunrise (sunset?), yet sati also comes from machine origins (tho a family in this case), and exhibits "human" and "humanistic" tendancies. She's not a predetermined program it seems, but an equally ("greater") adaptive program perhaps? I found this part slightly frustrating - i.e. what are we to make of this computer family carrying similar traits and ideals to idealistic humans, but not driven/structured by chemical prompting. i.e. are the bros suggesting, in conjunction with the neo-as-a-program idea, that mechanised consciousnesses are the way forward? If so, why the survival of Zion. I guess it's an extension of the idea that both the mechanistic and human worlds must grow, and operate in conjunction. I'm happy with that, just would've liked a tad more exposition, and a little less pyrotechnics.
Did Smith bleed? At what point? Perhaps we could take this to mean he's adapted fully to the human-modelled world that is the matrix? i.e. part of him has existed in a human "shell"/body, and his over-all absorbtion/hatred of humanity (via Neo plus his "incarceration" in the M) has "humanised" him in some ways?
The Oracle could never see the future as such when it came to core decisions it seems (note how she did'nt tell Neo he wasn't the One in the first film, but let him state this to be the case). She can be wrong. Smith was wrong. Maybe she was using the flaws inherent in herself to throw Smith off? Maybe she recognised that the Neo/Smith death was the best result for all, and needed to enter smith to permeate this outcome, coz otherwise he would've followed the path of death/purpose-acheivement throught the destruction of everything? Maybe anomylous programs like Smith, even in the throes of viral-spiral, are still predictable, in the way that Neo wasn't this time coz of his heavily-(undefinable)-humanistic aspects.
The question of her survival is another slightly annoying one.
If there are more M movies, i won't hold my breath for a re-crafting of these ideas into a drafting of behaviour in face of our fears. I think it'd all end in tears. But you never know...given time... (gah, i'm an optimist who's looking for closure in a series that's either gone for clover-grazing or exposure.)
We'll see. Let's have some more repartee (damn i'm pretentious ;))
BoondockSaints
11-28-03, 03:55 PM
I have to say this was my favorite of the 3.
All the battle/action scenes were f*ckin sweet, especialy the last fight between Smith and Neo, and Smith is soooo EVIL i just love him for bein so damn EVIL.
If anyone remember that punch When Neo hit Smith, how they showd it going throught the rain n hitting him in the face, i have never seen something sooooooo sweet in a movie,a nd yeah the critics give it bad reviews but im tried of listening to them cuz theyr never right
Beale the Rippe
11-28-03, 04:53 PM
The critics are almost always right. As a matter of fact, I believe they are largely right in this case. I just think they weighed certain aspects of the movie incorrectly. True, some borders on self parody, and some is just going through the motions, but overall I found it highly enjoyable. I also loved the final two action sequences, Zion (which is the second best battle in the entire series...after the orginal movies final battle) and the final battle with Smith. They dropped the ball with the ending in a HUGE way too...but all its flaws pale in comparison to the coolness of the Zion battle.
*** out of ****
(BTW...the two sequel Matricies are pitiful in comparison to the original!!!)
:)
Beale the Rippe
11-28-03, 04:56 PM
Do you honestly thing Return of the Jedi is a great film? I don't. It is a lackluster muppet show with sporadic good acting. The final battle in space is some of the best action on film to date, but I felt this film was when the corruption of George Lucas by cute fuzzy characters began. Also, saying that effects and action should never matter, only story, flies in the face of what film is at it's heart. If story is the ONLY concern, books are almost invariably better in my mind. As Hitchcock stated, "Going to the cinema one should experience cinema, not filmed conversations."
-S
I loved it. The final battle probably my favorite fight scene EVER, and the Emperor is one of the best villains. The muppets dragged the movie down a whole bunch, and it is the least of the series, but it is still a four star movie in my heart.
dajusta
12-02-03, 03:48 AM
I have been thinking ...Zion is not in the real world . Why? :
1. The Nebuchanezzer (the hovercraft) and all the other ships were made in the usa around the year 2100, which makes sense with the point that Morpheus believes that they are around the year 2199 but he's not sure. The architect (ref. to Reloaded)however says that there are 5 matrix's, before this version and they have destroyed zion 5 times before that. So that doesn't make sense with the fact that the materials, hovercrafts and APU's etc. , can't be remainders of the war just before the "first matrix" as the people of ZION seem to believe.
2. The architect refers to the people of ZION as the people as "the minority if unchecked would be an escalating probability of disaster"
(so what I conclude out of this or "machine like thinking" that they(machines) know about it and just added another level to the matrix like they refer in the code intro's in the 3 movies.)
3. The Matrix online (the upcoming video game written by the brothers) will have no gameplay in zion because there is no reason for zion anymore (peace in the 7th version of the matrix is like final day of creation of the world (ref.to the biblical story when god created the world in 6 days and the 7th day he rested because work was completed)
4. This perfectly explains why neo can hack into The Matrix without being jacked in, and Agent Smith getting into Bane.
5. The spoon that neo gets in Reloaded from the orphan by the kid, there is no spoon, even in the "real" world
6.The way Neo "sees" the real world (orange code)
Let me know what you think.
This sounds resonable, but i heavily doubt it.
you see, even if the architech states that Zion has been destroyed 5 times, it doesn't matter what year it is, the machines can make people think whatever they want. it could be the year 3199, since morpheus states that they litteraly dont know.
and the matrix is control. nothing more. they dont need a matrix within a matrix, that is just a waste of resources.
and neo was jacked into the matrix only because he wasn't suppose to die, it wasn't his time. so his conciousness (or if you are religious, soul) was contained in a place between the real world and the source (the source would be where he was grown, where all humans were grown at one point, since it is the 6th matrix and there is probably NO way that anyone can be true-blood-born) which is then an obvious metaphor comparing the source and heaven, where God gives life.
the orphan kid was only refering to the "no spoon" theory in the Matrix. the only way neo could use his powers in the real world isn't because its a matrix within a matrix, its because he is the One. i dont see morpheus and niobe jumping 20 feet in the air in the real world. do you?
He is simply, the One.
Tell me if this true, then I will know everything that happens in "Matrix Revolutions" - just give me a nod:
The boy that kept following Neo around in Reloaded is "the one" and he dies and becomes the new Architect.
where every u got it from is very creative but :nope
regex_1
12-18-03, 06:00 AM
NO that is not right at all. The kid does not become the architec. He is not the one. He is just some kid.
where every u got it from is very creative but :nope
Watch the animatrix if you want to know who the kid is....
_S
CandyFlick
12-18-03, 05:11 PM
They should never have made the second two in my opinion. The first film would have stood out even more than it has if it had just been a one off.
It's been tarnished with the follow ups....please don't misunderstand me, the special effects are fantastic but where is the soul of the first one?
http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung0903/weihnachten/xmas-smiley-045.gif
regex_1
12-19-03, 11:14 AM
Well seeing the matrix script was suppost to be like 4 or 5 movies long and they cut it to 3. I think that they had to kill alot of the unneeded stuff. Though I loved all of them, so I don't care. Though I would not mind seeing a prequel.
Agent Drake
12-20-03, 03:44 PM
I am probably the biggest Matrix fan in this site, and I gotta say... THE MATRIX REVOLUTIONS SUCKED! :( I was so disapointed seeing this movie, it almost made me sick. I LOVED the first and the second Matrix movies, but this was just trash. Half of the reason it was so bad, was because how babyish Smith acted, in the crate, in the ground, at the end of The Super Brawl. Example: "Is it over...?", "Leave me alone!" and last, but not least "Oh no! I said the wrong thing!" C'mon Smith, you can do better than that... Oh well. They are probably going to make an Animatrix 2, and I bet that'll "Free my mind" of how terrible The Matrix Revolutions was. Just my two cents...
Thanks...
Drake
...terrible The Matrix Revolutions was. Just my two cents...
Yes....only your two cents. :rolleyes:
Yes....only your two cents. :rolleyes:Um, actually, a great many people were horribly disappointed by the film. Myself included. It's by no means only his two cents.
Yes....only your two cents. :rolleyes:
Yes.....your two cents, except for those like me who enjoyed every minute of it. :yup:
Edited by jrs at 6:06 pm
Agent Drake
12-20-03, 08:52 PM
Yes.....your two cents, except for those like me who enjoyed every minute of it. :yup:
What's you point? You already said that. Stop spamming...
Thanks...
Drake
theshape82
12-21-03, 02:30 PM
two words for this movie....LET DOWN
theshape82
12-21-03, 02:36 PM
although i will admit that i enjoyed the movie very much it was still very much a let down....none of the original matrix was left...all the ideals and mystery and magic of the first killed off by a sfx reel
not to meantion(and i have brought this up before) WHY DID THEY BRING BACK TRINITY IN RELOADED ONLY TO KILL HER IN REVOLUTIONS WHEN SHE DID NOTHING?!?!?!?!?!
it boggles my mind...i'm so confused it hurts
aaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh
wow i feel better now
Agent Drake
12-22-03, 04:47 PM
WHY DID THEY BRING BACK TRINITY IN RELOADED ONLY TO KILL HER IN REVOLUTIONS WHEN SHE DID NOTHING?!?!?!?!?!
Lol, excactly! It was so pointless in the first place, to bring her back by magically turning his hand invisible, then pumping her heart, but then after all that to kill her AGAIN???[ Very not good...
Thanks...
Drake
JANthology
01-31-04, 04:28 PM
Following the storyline, Neo would NOT have done anything he did in the Matrix had Trinity not been there. Trinity was Neo's motivation for everything.
Sexy Celebrity
01-31-04, 05:22 PM
I finally saw it (for $1.50, no less) and I came out of it thinking it was the best of the three, yet, Reloaded will probably still forever be my favorite - but it was nice to see that picture continue on. I thought it was very weird. A good, understandable weird, but weird nonetheless. What happened to Morpheus? He is the Matrix (the films). This was not his swan song, this movie almost rejected him. This was the cookie baking Oracle's movie - though she doesn't take up the whole movie, she basically gets it starting, swerves us with the multiple Smiths scene, then ends it on a bright, sunny day in the Matrix - with that little girl who popped out of nowhere in the series. Aye ye ye.
James_Bond
02-01-04, 09:25 AM
I finally saw it (for $1.50, no less) and I came out of it thinking it was the best of the three, yet, Reloaded will probably still forever be my favorite - but it was nice to see that picture continue on. I thought it was very weird. A good, understandable weird, but weird nonetheless. What happened to Morpheus? He is the Matrix (the films). This was not his swan song, this movie almost rejected him. This was the cookie baking Oracle's movie - though she doesn't take up the whole movie, she basically gets it starting, swerves us with the multiple Smiths scene, then ends it on a bright, sunny day in the Matrix - with that little girl who popped out of nowhere in the series. Aye ye ye.
My favorite was the first Matrix. In my opinion, it was overall a better movie. The only thing I really enjoyed about Reloaded was the fight scenes.
Beale the Rippe
02-01-04, 12:42 PM
My favorite was the first Matrix. In my opinion, it was overall a better movie. The only thing I really enjoyed about Reloaded was the fight scenes.
I think there's little doubt that The Matrix is much better than it's two part sequel.
greppin
02-03-04, 07:14 AM
Lol, excactly! It was so pointless in the first place, to bring her back by magically turning his hand invisible, then pumping her heart, but then after all that to kill her AGAIN???[ Very not good...
Thanks...
Drake
She died in the Matrix in the first film, then out of it in the second... and Neo can't go shoving his hands through people’s bodies in the real world... That and she was sitting quite awkwardly on some metal poles. :rolleyes:
Jackie Malfoy
02-11-04, 09:00 PM
Ok my boyfriend is a huge fan of the Matricks movie and he had ask me a question that I don't the answear too!So if anyone knows this answear please tell me!
Ok here is the question!When is the third Matricks movie coming out?I have no idea and I looked up and it did not help me at all so does anyone know?
Thanks!I know one of you guys must know!Yoda the rest?See you around!JM :cool: ;) :p :D :)
JM -- Not sure where you live, but the third Matrix film has been out in the US for some time now. Just try searching again and make sure you put MATRIX in the search box, k? :yup:
_S
greppin
02-12-04, 05:27 AM
There was a point in Matrix Revolutions where Neo and Trinity came up over the cloads and saw the clear sky and the sun for the first time. This really really bugged me... What was the point of torching the sky, surely if the machines would have just built some big ass solar panel to get the light above the line of cloads. If they where indeed machines wouldn't living on higher ground make more sense than enslaving the human race. Perhaps I thought to much into it, but it's kinda stupid blocking out the sun... because it's still there above the black cloads.
I would think the solution wouldn't be that simple. To power all the machines on the planet with solar power, they would have had to construct an array of incredible magnitude, that would only ever be able to ensare sunlight for around 10-14 hours per day depending on the earths tilt/position at whatever time of year it happened to be. So, a planatery scale array would have had to been constructed. I think this would have been fine if the machines hadn't been a lot more primitive at the start of the war. If one studied the chronology of the man/machine war, aka The Second Renaissance, it would become clear that the machines just weren't advanced enough to engage in a project like a planetary solar array miles above the earth. I mean, the whole reason the symbiotic relationship started was because of the timing of Operation Darksky (errr, that's not the name but it's something like that, I can't remember the real name right now). From what I gathered from watching the Seconfd Renaissance, the machines were losing for a long time, as they weren't smart enough to gain any sort of advantage. Once the machine started to win, man got desperate and formulated a plan. This plan was out of pure desperation and nothing more. It was a bad plan. I think after this happened the machines went into their own sort of desperation mode, and went for the fastest way out of the situation. So, they had been studying the human for many years and a solution presented itself, It may have been that they thought about a solar array, but the array plan would have had two glaring problems.
The array would be vulnerable to attack
The array didn't ALSO remove the enemy.
The human battery plan is clearly and logically the better plan, and the machine's logic circuits would choose it 100% of the time.
Not to mention the story would have much less impact if man hadn't created the problem in the first place.
Jackie Malfoy
02-12-04, 02:14 PM
JM -- Not sure where you live, but the third Matrix film has been out in the US for some time now. Just try searching again and make sure you put MATRIX in the search box, k? :yup:
_S
I had not seen any thing on it being on tape!I mean I know that Matrick's reloaded is on dvd and video but I had not seen Revoutions anywhere in the store.
Are you sure?Would it be on tv if it was on video or dvd? Well anyway I will go check it out thanks for telling me anyway!See you around!JM :cool: ;) :p :D :)
Caitlyn
02-12-04, 02:23 PM
I had not seen any thing on it being on tape!I mean I know that Matrick's reloaded is on dvd and video but I had not seen Revoutions anywhere in the store.
Are you sure?Would it be on tv if it was on video or dvd? Well anyway I will go check it out thanks for telling me anyway!See you around!JM :cool: ;) :p :D :)
You need to be a little bit clearer with your questions Sweetie... and always check the DVD Forum... jrs always keeps us up to date... :)
MATRIX REVOLUTIONS (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=6323)
It is in my opinion quite easy to tell there should have been 4 movies needed to tell the whole story properley with no plot holes etc.. other examples of this would be interview with the vampire and queen of the dammed which proved they could have done with quite a bit more screen time. I thought the first half of reloaded was pretty good, they lost it just after the motorway scenes to to much dialogue and there is to much dialogue in revoloutions. I like the fight in the chateau and after Neo beatsT the henchmen, i thought here we go a big battle between neo and the mirovingian. And the way they just left persephone and the mirovingian out of the 3rd one was poor, well left out of any dignified scenes for a program supposed to be so big/evil/powerfull.
I think there may be an extended edition of both the last 2 movies in s dvd box set like lord of the rings which may explain things a bit more. As I see it there will be more matrix movies for simply 1 reason; Money.
greppin
02-13-04, 06:29 AM
I would think the solution wouldn't be that simple. To power all the machines on the planet with solar power, they would have had to construct an array of incredible magnitude, that would only ever be able to ensare sunlight for around 10-14 hours per day depending on the earths tilt/position at whatever time of year it happened to be. So, a planatery scale array would have had to been constructed. I think this would have been fine if the machines hadn't been a lot more primitive at the start of the war. If one studied the chronology of the man/machine war, aka The Second Renaissance, it would become clear that the machines just weren't advanced enough to engage in a project like a planetary solar array miles above the earth. I mean, the whole reason the symbiotic relationship started was because of the timing of Operation Darksky (errr, that's not the name but it's something like that, I can't remember the real name right now). From what I gathered from watching the Seconfd Renaissance, the machines were losing for a long time, as they weren't smart enough to gain any sort of advantage. Once the machine started to win, man got desperate and formulated a plan. This plan was out of pure desperation and nothing more. It was a bad plan. I think after this happened the machines went into their own sort of desperation mode, and went for the fastest way out of the situation. So, they had been studying the human for many years and a solution presented itself, It may have been that they thought about a solar array, but the array plan would have had two glaring problems.
The array would be vulnerable to attack
The array didn't ALSO remove the enemy.
The human battery plan is clearly and logically the better plan, and the machine's logic circuits would choose it 100% of the time.
Not to mention the story would have much less impact if man hadn't created the problem in the first place.
Or they could have just built a big fan to get rid of all the smoke... :rolleyes: I know it wouldn't be a very good movie if the human race wasn't enslaved, but it just seems to me that there was thousands of ways of getting energy that the machines could have used. By studing the human race they could have seen us experement with renewable energy resources, also the humans must have had power stations, rivers, wind etc.... If the machines had the power to enslave humans then they also had the power to just go and kill them and nick whatever they where using....
But it wouldn't have been a good film now would it...
Or they could have just built a big fan to get rid of all the smoke... :rolleyes: I know it wouldn't be a very good movie if the human race wasn't enslaved, but it just seems to me that there was thousands of ways of getting energy that the machines could have used. By studing the human race they could have seen us experement with renewable energy resources, also the humans must have had power stations, rivers, wind etc.... If the machines had the power to enslave humans then they also had the power to just go and kill them and nick whatever they where using....
But it wouldn't have been a good film now would it...
There is a statement in The Second Renaissance where the narrator states:
"The machine, drawing power from the human body, an endlessly multiplying, infinitely renewable energy source, this is the very essence of the Second Renaissance."
I think this is why they chose humans, as Power stations aren't infinitely renewable and endlessly multiplying :nope:
Jackie Malfoy
02-13-04, 08:36 PM
You need to be a little bit clearer with your questions Sweetie... and always check the DVD Forum... jrs always keeps us up to date... :)
MATRIX REVOLUTIONS (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=6323)
I have no idea why I keep forgeting to check the dvd section of this site!Anyway thanks for remaining me that it is there!
And I will clearer from now on I promise thanks for asking me nicely!See you around!JM :cool: ;) :D :)
MyRobotSuit
03-23-04, 06:12 PM
I just saw it for the first time. It was awful.
A lack of a continuous storyline kept me BORED. About three quarters of the movie is filled with the most tedious 'epic' war scene I have ever seen. I had no idea what was going on. It just didn't fuse well with Reloaded as the ideas and explanations from that just were not evaluated.
The script was just sickening. How many cheesey predictable lines were said? It felt like Pearl Harbour all over again....
Yes the effects were darn good throughout but so what? That's not enough.
Why didn't they leave it as a single movie?
I just saw it for the first time. It was awful.
A lack of a continuous storyline kept me BORED. About three quarters of the movie is filled with the most tedious 'epic' war scene I have ever seen. I had no idea what was going on. It just didn't fuse well with Reloaded as the ideas and explanations from that just were not evaluated.
The script was just sickening. How many cheesey predictable lines were said? It felt like Pearl Harbour all over again....
Yes the effects were darn good throughout but so what? That's not enough.
Why didn't they leave it as a single movie?
Seconded ;)
Spider-Freak
03-24-04, 06:45 AM
One word... sucked!
where was "payoff" that we were promised... i mean Reloaded wasn't great but compared to this it sure was no "tease".
Maybe i'm stupid but how did Neo getting turned into Smith destroy Smith... why didn't everyone in the matrix who had in theory been turned into Smith die or the matrix crash... and why oh why was the architect even in the movie?
Maybe i'm wrong and i just missed the point but to me none of it was explained... i got the impression after seeing it that it was never intended as a trilogy like the brothers said it was... it seems as thought the story for the second and third movies was thought up by mixing a load of philosphical crap and techno spout purposely so that the audience could not understand it in the hope that they would see it all as cool!!!! Unlucky Wachowski Bros... you failed miserably!
Although i have just said all this i will still buy it so i don't know why i bother really. I would still forgive them if they turned round and said "sorry about that people, we made a slight error with those... can we make them again?"
I really had high hopes for them... i wish they could be remade now because they could have been so much better!
aggromaggro
03-24-04, 04:17 PM
revolutions could have answered all of the questions, but it didnt in a sense. i left the movie more confused than ever! i still liked it though.
greppin
03-26-04, 06:57 AM
There is a statement in The Second Renaissance where the narrator states:
"The machine, drawing power from the human body, an endlessly multiplying, infinitely renewable energy source, this is the very essence of the Second Renaissance."
I think this is why they chose humans, as Power stations aren't infinitely renewable and endlessly multiplying :nope:
Ahh ok... I get it now, still bugged me slightly I was about to dispute your first statement about using solar panels (as that's what the machines originally used) but Animatrix kinda clears up any loose ends.
I enjoyed the whole Matrix thing, the Anime, the 2 movies, the Game etc... It was a nice experiment into what you can do with entertainment (and how much money you can squeeze out of your audience)... I enjoyed both 2&3 mainly for the action and effects, which I think is an achievement and is a good enough reason to see it. I personally think the Wachowski Brothers knew what they where trying to do, but didn't quite get it to work.
It seems the movies are a lot of fragmented ideas, some explored way too much, and others way too little. It would have been nice if the film had focus and didn't go off in tangential paths all the time... IMO, it seemed that it tried to shove 2-3 hours of storyline into the last 10minutes of Revolutions, it felt rushed.
They are ok films, but they don't quite stand up against the first film.
blackcrow
03-27-04, 01:30 PM
First film was the greatest sci-fi picture to come to the screen since with 1992 with T2, the second film is the one I hate. I wish it was more "serious" and better, some scenes were not bad but the rest was pretty much ****. And the last film was the second best, a good climax, and a good way to end the story. But my favorite will forever be the first film.
greppin
03-30-04, 05:32 AM
Well of course considering it was an original (kinda) thing... and one of the first western films to deal with the kind of Sci-Fi that usually is left up to Japanese Anime directors. It was an achievment to create something that had depth as well as good effects, it's a shame they tried to go over the top with extending the story.
Personally I thought some of the things that where discussed on this forum after reloaded would have made better endings, I thought Matrix inside another Matrix would have been a cool idea (if not a little 13th floor)...
Firebug911
04-06-04, 07:01 PM
___Warning: If you havn't seen Matrix Revolutions and do not wish to know the ending then please do not read on___
Why o Why did Neo have to die! NO NO NO I WONT BELEAVE IT! jesus trinity along with neo both died.. he was expose to be the "one" I sure as hell hope its not really a trilogy and they r gonnna make one final one.. to see if neo comes back omg! Great movie untill they both died.. then it became complete ****!
PS:I was searching google for the matrix 4 and ppl said i dunno if its true that they making matrix 4 an avilabitly(or how ever you spell it) But kuena reeves will not be returning to it... But i dont think thats true that guy made millions off that. But they said the matrix 4 will be based on neo returning or some **** like that i hope its all true! more info on this would be greatly needed! so plezz let me know if they r making another!
Jackie Malfoy
04-06-04, 07:15 PM
Yea it is tuesday I almost forgot I have to go and get me a copy I had not seen it yet. No worrys I did not read your thread.
Anyway my friend told me the ending and I almost killed her but I am going to see the movie anyway.
Well I am off to buy the movie see yuo around!JM :mad: :eek: :cool: ;) :p :D :)
Firebug911
04-06-04, 07:31 PM
The ended was just damn right gay! If you think back to the first one where neo got shot about 10 times in the chest and he came back.. Why didnt he in the last one? I mean he knew he couldnt beat smith so he let him take him over so he could deleate him...But why neo also? it doesnt make since.. Hopefully they will make another movie. :mad:
Firebug911
04-06-04, 07:34 PM
In fact, WB would be fools if they didnt make another one.. i never heard of a movie company not making more of a HUGE sucessfull money making movie; IE: batman,jaws,Holloweens and such so they better or i will go threaten them!
There is no/will be no plans for a Matrix 4 .
Jackie Malfoy
04-06-04, 08:46 PM
There is no/will be no plans for a Matrix 4 .
Ok I am off to go buy the tape see you guys later!
Jackie
Malfoy :cool: ;) :D :)
Firebug911
04-06-04, 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by jrs
"There is no/will be no plans for a Matrix 4 "
LIES! the must make another besides it would be foolish not to... After what the oricle said at the end and stuff there has to be!
Caitlyn
04-06-04, 11:03 PM
so they better or i will go threaten them!
That should do the trick... :p ;)
projectMayhem
04-06-04, 11:15 PM
i never heard of a movie company not making more of a HUGE sucessfull money making movie; IE: batman,jaws,Holloweens
But look at the quality of the latter entries to those series. It would have been beneficial to WB to quit after the 3rd Batman, and the other two series Jaws, and Halloween really needed no further sequels past the first movie.
greppin
04-07-04, 06:38 AM
Yeah, but they know people will go to see more Jaws, Batman, Halloween and Matrix movies.... and it's good business, and fans want sequels just not crap ones.
A sequel should have all the good things about the first movie but be better, a lot better... Terminator 2 was a good sequel, Batman Returns was a good sequel, and Matrix Reloaded & Revolutions was not a good sequel…
They pulled over better special effects sure, and the fighting was better if a little over the top. What they didn’t do was keep the same sensibility and coolness of the first that and the script was awful they didn’t explain anything… when someone asks you what the hells going on you tell them, you don’t say “I don’t know, but it’s something I have to do”, or “I can’t tell you know” it’s just bollocks! The thing that made the first one cool wasn’t just the effect; it was the dialogue and the story… I think they totally lost the point of all the characters in the sequels, and just shrouded it with mystery to make it appear deeper than it actually was.
I think it would be better for all involved if they did make another sequel, but the opening scene should have Neo wake up and say something like "That was a weird dream" and then carry on from where the first movie left off... then perhaps only if they denounced the last 2 movies could they possibly salvage the franchise. It actually ruins the movie for me now (the first one) because you know what's going to come afterwards... Although I did like last two movies based on effects, it’s entertaining enough as just eye candy, I would have preferred if they just didn’t bother making them at all.
I suppose they had to take the story up to the end of the war between man and machine, but did they have to say "I believe" so much and when is somebody going to answer all those questions, and when did Cornel Sanders get time to start KFC what with making the Matrix and all.
Firebug911
04-08-04, 07:55 PM
Naww, They just need a fourth to explain what happened after Neo ended the war.. Was there peace?( that could go on and on, maybe the machines changed there mind lol and wasted them all)
Did Neo get revived? At the end they dragged him in a transporter thing and took him somewhere hmm where could it of been? Zion maybe? Or maybe to the machine city to revive him.. a 4th is defintly needed..
Besides you know how you watch a movie and say "well that didnt end right" "maybe they will make a second".. Well Normally they do make a second..
Matrix revos didnt end right so chances are they will make a 4th.
Trinity01
08-25-04, 04:41 PM
i think the entire matrix trilogy ((quadtrilogy if u count the Animatrix)) is the coolest thing that has ever happened to any of us! the only problem with it was revolutions. the ending was a real downer for me and it was really unexpected! im a Keanu Reeves lover and when so called "died" at the end it made me cry! (i love Keanu....when he hurts....i hurt!) when Trinity died though.....i thought 'more room for me....lol' jk jk.....that also made me sad.......i thought the ending would be nice and Neo and Trinity would be together forever....like 'Happily Ever After' i was so wrong....... :rolleyes: other then that.....i think the movie was rockin and it was one of the greatest movies of all time! :D :cool:
Urban Cowboy
08-25-04, 05:24 PM
I happen to think the only promblem with the trilogy is the fact that it became a trilogy. Reloaded, and Revolutions were both awful. With the first movie, the Wachowskis had an original story and combined it with great special effects. Then they went out and created a story so convoluted that I doubt they understand it. With the next two movies the brothers showed that as writers they lack the ablity to craft characters with any depth what so ever. As directors they have shown an inability to control mood, as evidence to the fact that people were laughing during what should have been emotional death scenes. With Reloaded we were given half of a film. Revolutions gave us a the other half, and made me wish they had just let it go with at half a film.
Ash_Lee
08-25-04, 05:28 PM
They took on too much. Let's be honest, 4 years is a pretty short time to make 2 big budget films, but they were also involved in a video game and an animated series aswell. They should have stuck with just making the films.
I just seen the first showing of the release of Matrix Revolutions. And I think that it could be the best movie I have ever seen. I am not gonna say anything to spoil it. Though I just wanna say, go see this movie. It was the better than I had ever imagined.
Also Matrix was released all over the world at the same time, as to keep spoilers from coming out to soon. And I am glad to say I was in the first showing with everyone and I got lucky and it was not even that busy.
I,ve seen the Matrix trilogy, even bought the ultimate collection on the day of it's release. The only "spoiler" for me was the delectable Monica Belluci getting way too little screen time in Reloaded and Revolutions. This voluptuous bombshell from Italy could,ve been given a few more scenes to show off her killer bod.
inibriated
08-24-05, 11:23 AM
this movie sucked period
TheUsualSuspect
08-24-05, 01:41 PM
BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT EVER!!!!!
Club Hell was too short and nothing happened.
Possible cool characters:Trainman, were compelte crap.
Characters from Reloaded: Merv, Arc, Per, were all crap, they had 10 minutes of screen time tops. Monica said one line in the whole ****ing movie!!!
NO TWINS
Neo/Smith fight could of been better
As said before, it was too short and the Machine world convo with head machine guy and neo was short. We see almost everything in the trailer....Yes I know the world was crashing and it had to be a quick chat so neo could fight to save the world, but I was still disappointed.
I'll write my full review for this average film later, I thought reloaded was much better, in terms of everything.
Does serpah even put up a fight???? I wanted to see him kick some more ass, but no...nothing
Hated the ending as well. WHY, I HAD SUCH HIGH HOPES
only thing I liked was the battle for zion, which yes, did drag on too long.
Uncle Jay
09-08-05, 12:30 AM
My review...
When we last left Neo (Keanu Reeves), he was in some sort of coma from taking on four Sentinels. A mysterious stranger named Bane (Ian Bliss) lay on the opposite side of him, also in a coma and the Sentinels were massing in thousands nearing Zion. That was the cliffhanger ending of "The Matrix Reloaded," the impressive action-packed second installment to "The Matrix" saga. Now, the circle closes with the third and final chapter, "The Matrix Revolutions."
So what exactly happened to Neo? Well, he was stuck in a world between the Matrix and reality. His only way out is through a program known as The Trainman (Bruce Spence, yes the very same character from the "Enter the Matrix" game). In fact, Neo is stuck in a pristine white train station, pretty much being held prisoner. Morpheus (Laurence Fishburne) and Trinity (Carrie-Anne Moss), realize that Neo is being held prisoner by the Merovingian (Lambert Wilson) and quickly make a deal for his release.
Freed, Neo then goes to see the Oracle (Mary Alice), who has now mysteriously taken a new form. Neo raises the questions that "Reloaded" left for us. Who and what exactly is Agent Smith, the encounter with the Architect, the destruction of Zion, etc. Meanwhile, in the real world, Zion is prepping for the war against the machines and the Sentinels are more than well on their way. Our heroes, then catch up with Niobe (Jada Pinkett Smith) and Ghost (Anthony Wong), our "Enter the Matrix" duo, who decide to make way for Zion, even though infested with Sentinels. But Neo has other plans, taking one of the ships and flying into the machine world, to try and stop the Sentinels from destroying Zion. Trinity has every intention of assisting her true love in this seemingly psychotic plan. However, before they take off, they have a little run in with Bane, whom as we all know is Agent Smith (or one of them anyway). The Sentinels finally get into the loading bay of Zion, and what an amazing action sequence this is in the film, makes "Reloaded's" 14-minute car chase look like a Rankin/Bass production. Agent Smith has turned everyone in the Matrix into himself, ruling the program. Neo, now has to face it all: The Machines, Agent Smith, the Matrix, life and death…
The Wachowski Brothers could have made the conclusion a bit more stronger. "The Matrix Revolutions" is the missing piece of the entire puzzle that was the two previous films, it all comes together, but a little too rushed and unsatisfying. The very end is a bit vague, but I guess Hollywood gave it that open ending, in case the Wachowskis make a string of flops after their "Matrix" career, big mistake in my opinion. The special effects are incredible as always and the storyline is in good form, at least I thought so. I really wish they had made the end a bit more solid, but I can live with it. One thing though, I really don't want to see anymore "Matrix" films. I would fix the ending in a director's cut DVD and stop it all together.
"The Matrix" trilogy will be added to the line of great science-fiction sagas.
-UJ
Has anybody here played Enter the Matrix? Depending on which character you do play....in one portion of the given film footage you get see Monica Belluci and Carrie-Anne Moss do the smoochie - smoochie. :kiss: :p
Uncle Jay
09-08-05, 12:54 AM
Has anybody here played Enter the Matrix? Depending on which character you do play....in one portion of the given film footage you get see Monica Belluci and Carrie-Anne Moss do the smoochie - smoochie. :kiss: :p
Is that a fact?!
Gonna have to go play the game again! :D
UJ
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.