How About A God Movie That Makes Sense?

[kkawohl]

Can our subconscious, our spirit, interact with a spiritual reality through meditation? Please consider my experiences.

IMHO, I have personally experienced my spirit leaving my body and being united with the "ultimate supreme spirit" (God?). In 1956, when I was fifteen years old, I had pneumonia and thought I was dying. My father took me to a doctor who gave me a penicillin injection and recommended immediate hospitalization. We had no medical insurance or money, so my father took me home to recuperate. I remember the drive home vividly. Every breath was painful and my chest felt as though a great weight was upon it. I watched cars and trucks drive by, and wondered how people could make long term plans when life was so unpredictable.

Several nights later, it felt as if my spirit left my body and it experienced being in a place with a gathering of souls or spirits. I sensed great peace, tranquility and ecstasy -- a rapture that was beyond a person's imagination. I felt as if I was a part of ALL, a part of God. I was mentally communicating and in sync with everyone, including not only some of my deceased acquaintances and relatives, but many of the prophets of the bible, and historical people I had read about. There was no dominant force, no forceful leader. I somehow knew who everyone was. Every thought interacted with the whole community. I had no questions; it seemed as if everything was revealed and crystal clear. I saw the universe stretched out with spirits engaged in mental interaction like master craftsmen contemplating the creation of a new frontier.

When I told my father who was a preacher of the Lutheran Faith about my experience he dismissed it abruptly and told me that this "supreme spirit," this God that my spirit had witnessed, was not the God of the bible and he told me to pray for my salvation. We never talked about it afterwards.

Since that time I never really gave it much thought until the New York World Trade Center tragedy on 9-11-01. I went into deep meditation. I wanted to find an answer to why and how some misguided individuals could believe that their actions would be rewarded with their soul's eternal life with God. I then had a couple of experiences similar to the one I had at age fifteen of my spirit communicating with the "ultimate spirit." (God, Allah or whatever one desires to call him/her/it) One spiritual experience seemed to last throughout the entire night. My spirit observed the entire history and the evolution of the universe and our varying perceptions of God, as if in a fast-forward film.

The experiences I encountered after the 9-11 tragedy helped me come to this conclusion:

1. ALL religions have the same goals and all who live by the basic principles of peace will attain their goal. The problems arise when religious fanaticism arises. A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide.

2. In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are a contributing cause toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Belief in a deity, who keeps causing catastrophes, punishes people, and created the universe out of nothingness as if by magic was brought about by hysteria and superstitions. This thought process needs to be reassessed and brought up to date. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this so-called deity was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

3. God is a spiritual unity, a oneness, a structured government-like "Spiritual Collective"; the "Progressive and Accumulative Spiritual Intelligence" of the universe existing in a spiritual dimension; a collective of the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm; a spiritual continuity.

Some will say that my personal experience of oneness with a supreme spirit is nothing but a dream or a vivid imagination. It doesn't matter whether you accept or totally reject my story. What does matter is that we evolve to a point whereby we can encourage open-minded people to offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can be brought into the 21st century.

Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism and without fanaticism; This would be true enlightenment.

Namaste,
Kurt Kawohl

http://www.internet-encyclopedia.org/wiki.phtml?search=kurt+kawohl

[Golgot]

Ahh what the hell (scuse the expression), i'll bite... (bout time we had another random lecturer around here ;))...


1. ALL religions have the same goals and all who live by the basic principles of peace will attain their goal. The problems arise when religious fanaticism arises. A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide.

I've always thought so. I don't belong to a designated religion tho, and feel happy for that to be honest. I think they guide in the right direction, but people tend to get a bit over-attached to the structural elements like official texts etc (i saw quite an intriguing debate the other day between four "high ranking" Anglicans debating the gay-bishop issues, and was pleased to see how they were prepared to evaluate the bible's texts on varying levels, and to accomodate each others' appraisals. But then they are appealingly non-dogmatic in my experience ;)) The question might be... what control/influence do such moderates and peace-lovers have over the more zealous members of their faith? Next to none i'd say.


2. In this 21st Century, the Age of Technology, we are still plagued by religious beliefs that are a contributing cause toward terrorism, killings and wars between nations. Belief in a deity, who keeps causing catastrophes, punishes people, and created the universe out of nothingness as if by magic was brought about by hysteria and superstitions. This thought process needs to be reassessed and brought up to date. Open-minded people must use common sense to determine whether this so-called deity was incorrectly perceived, misinterpreted and misunderstood by the masses of a bygone era.

Well, i think you'll find there's even a blind-faith in technology these days amongst some people - and indeed that technology isn't likely to reform the pertinent faculties/elements/tendancies of the human brain just yet (unless you count decreased attention spans and better neuron control over our thumbs for texting as potential dogma-reducers ;))

Now a rational evaluation of modern mystical experiences would be interesting. At the moment we have some "quiet" scientific movement in that direction, in that there have been investigations into brain-damage/stimulations which result in adoption of extreme religious beliefs, visions in migraines and epilepsy, and altered-brain-states under meditation (that i know of - and i must say that my favourite type of scientist always has a "spiritual"/holistic/humble aspect to their work). But an open discussion would be intriguing. If anything it seems to me that some perceive this "technological age" as one which has gone past such considerations or realities - which is a shame (and just plain daft in many ways - I'm thinking mainly here of those rationalists and empiricists who'd like to leave the world of sensation and/or the unexplained behind for the "purity" of thought-alone. That's one of the many types of rational-objectivism i think it's dangerous to think is attainable by a subjective, rationally-investigating, individual)


3. God is a spiritual unity, a oneness, a structured government-like "Spiritual Collective"; the "Progressive and Accumulative Spiritual Intelligence" of the universe existing in a spiritual dimension; a collective of the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm; a spiritual continuity.

I'm afraid i'm not a big fan of the enduring/immortal-personalities idea of heaven - but hell (there we go again) you're the one with the experience (which i don't knock by the way.) But i love the cumulative-One-everywhere amalgam image of "god". Tho for me, it would extend beyond a culmination of the the minds of individuals over time. I prefer to think of "God" as a combination of the "knowledge" contained within all matter over time (in all it's forms). But that's just me ;). I always get a bit worried when "god" gets anthropomorphised in any way - makes me suspicious it's just an self-referential analogy-process our minds like to use (which could almost lead back to the why-do-fanatics-get-produced-by-organised-religion thing)



Let us hope that man will eventually progress intellectually and evolve to a point whereby he can socialize with totally eliminated tendencies for barbarianism and without fanaticism; This would be true enlightenment.

Bring it on baby. If we can build even the tiniest building block for such a social step during our time, well, we'll have done a huge amount. Gotta have means and ways and flexible sways tho.

In the meantime, i'm off to see if the Matrix 3 has anything profound to say about joy and dismay, dogma and sway, and the mind's interplay. Never know :) (and you never know, that reference might stop this getting shunted to the miscellaneous thread, for, ooo, maybe about 5 minutes ;))

[Caitlyn]

(and you never know, that reference might stop this getting shunted to the miscellaneous thread, for, ooo, maybe about 5 minutes ;))


Has it been 5 minutes yet... ;) ... Moving to Intermission... for now...

[Sexy Celebrity]

I believe him. I've seen a ghost and I have had incredible synchronicities. I just had a really great one the other day.

Meditation may be okay, but I don't recommend the Transcendental Meditation by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi -- which I've discovered is not easy to learn how to do because you have to attend one of his schools and pay some money. I have heard some horror stories about him and his TM.

Of course, Kawohl there, whoever he is, didn't talk about him.

[Golgot]

I believe him. I've seen a ghost and I have had incredible synchronicities. I just had a really great one the other day.

Meditation may be okay, but I don't recommend the Transcendental Meditation by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi -- which I've discovered is not easy to learn how to do because you have to attend one of his schools and pay some money. I have heard some horror stories about him and his TM.

Of course, Kawohl there, whoever he is, didn't talk about him.

Oh sure - old MMY is pretty suss i reckon. But what he's preaching is just popularised extentions of recognised practices as far as i can see (man, if you really want to avoid something, don't read his take on the Bhavad Ghita - however u spell it. At least, my suspicion is that he put some fairly personalised/control-freakery-seeming spins on it.). I learned a version of TM from some book, and tho i'd never claim to have reached the precisely-predetermined states it gabbled about (i trusted the breathing-technique advice more than the philosophising), or even a highly enlightened state or something, i think you can get into different states that i associate with spirituality (i.e. a spread from conscious-limb-arrangement to ego-drift "attainment" - or summink like that anyway :))

At the end of the day TM lines up with buddist meditation practice, Christian mantra prayers, all types of meditation really, even some crazy pseudo-kabbalistic stuff i've read. It's all breathing/body-mind techniques it seems.

What do you mean by synchronicities btw? Like deja vu, o que?

[kkawohl]

Sorry for not replying sooner...busy.

Now...I am asking for your help in a new endeavor.

I'm a transcendentalist & rationalist, non-religious but spiritual.

Many of today’s societies are still inundated with religious inconsistencies
that are the result of their own politics and dogmas that have become
something other than spirituality; they are wrought with superstitions that
are also resulting in acts of terrorism. Terrorists are eager to die for the
promotion of their causes and are also killing others because of a twisted
religion that has them believing they will be rewarded for their
faithfulness. Even intellectuals in modern societies have been brainwashed
by clinging to beliefs that still subscribe to the antiquated unscientific
concept of a personal powerful God that was structured after kings, lords
and domineering tyrants who controlled the masses.

Spirituality is the spiritual aspect of a person that encompasses the spirit
and controls sense. Common sense and rationality dictates that what man has
called God is in reality a spiritual unity in the spiritual dimension that
has never interfered with and needs nothing from mankind.

I would like to enlist your help in changing the face of religions. Can you
envision the worldwide headlines if atheists and believers started declaring
their allegiance to a modern rational deity that is a spirit which has never meddled in the
affairs of mankind? Eventually prejudicial exclusive religions would be considered passé.

Albert Einstein stated, “The religion of the future will be a cosmic
religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology.
Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a
religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and
spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Everyone who is seriously interested in
the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the
laws of the universe—a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of
which our modest powers must feel humble."

Your opinion is appreciated. I have started the ball rolling. Please see

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=transcendentalism+today

http://www.authorzone.com/view_authors.php?authorid=1426

Namaste,

Kurt Kawohl

[Anonymous Last]

God used to look like this...
http://photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/th_god1.jpg

Now God looks like this...
http://photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/th_god2.bmp

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...I would like to enlist your help in changing the face of religions.
Despite the fact that you're clearly a loonie bird, you had me up til here. With rationality as your watchword, you have to realise that there are varying degrees of spirituality, of intellect, of civilization... and that religions serve a purpose for the people who subscribe to them. To imagine that you can convert everyone to one diety and one social structure associated with that spirituality is to turn your back on rationality.

[kkawohl]

Despite the fact that you're clearly a loonie bird, you had me up til here. With rationality as your watchword, you have to realise that there are varying degrees of spirituality, of intellect, of civilization... and that religions serve a purpose for the people who subscribe to them. To imagine that you can convert everyone to one diety and one social structure associated with that spirituality is to turn your back on rationality.


I appreciate your opinion SD...yet, let's not insult the loon...and then claim that rationality is in religion today...is that not an oxymoron?

Terrorism is one of our main problems today...so, how can we change Muslim religious ideology to stop terrorism?

A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide. Muslims have been led to believe that they must expand Islam in order to please Allah/God. Since Judaism created the present perception of God, it is the duty of Judaism, the originator to bring rationality to a belief in Allah/God if Israel and Judaism wants to live in peace with Muslims.

If all the events that occurred as written in the Bible, Qur’an and Torah now, today, would humanity be as gullible now and accept all miracles and God as portrayed then? If the context entails incorrect exegeses and the vast tradition of hermeneutics and the translation is illogical, it is illogical whether it is by my interpretation or by any logic.

Mankind has progressed past a need for a God who desires and requires servitude. We can eliminate servitude and still have a closeness and love of God. It was man who placed restrictions on himself for the good of mankind and attributed this to God. Most of us now live in a lawful society. Now laws are proposed and enforced by governments. God does not, and never has meddled in our affairs.

If we take rationality completely out of context when establishing an association with present day problems between Jews, Christians and Muslims, we can come up with numerous solutions. Reality however dictates that if there were no distinctions between Muslims, Jews, and Christians, strife would be nonexistent. The major distinction is religion

The best weapon against irrationality is logic. If logic is implemented in religion, eventually the inference of reasoning has to predominate and the illogical will be considered inferior and will ridicule itself out of existence. Today we have at our disposal the means whereby the media can reach even the farthest corners of our world.

How does one confront the passions of people with a logical entreaty to abandon faith? How does one convince a young man that his self-immolation in a bombing will not bring redemption from Allah to his soul and rewards to his people or honor to his family?

If logical reasoning lodges doubt into the mind of a martyr that his soul will be destroyed as a punishment for being the cause of cutting short another soul's ability to attain a bond with Allah/God, eventually the act of self-sacrifice ceases. This is the only effective way that man will eventually attain peace.

We can spend billions of dollars in an attempt to annihilate groups of people who have an adamant fanatical goal to destroy anyone who hinders the path of spreading their religion. They believe that this has been commanded by Allah. The end result will always be the same. The fanatics who are destroyed fuel the hatred of a new group with the same or an even fiercer fervor to die for their Allah if the need arises.

How do we solve this problem? The pen is mightier than the sword. To the illiterate, visual projections via film is the greatest tool. The media and film producers have always shied away from the possibility of offending religious organizations. A fear of the fundamentalists' wrath has even stifled the desire for the truth. Can the real truth be revealed? Will this end strife? Maybe not, but unless we try, we will never know; will we?

True logic is the science of inference and reasoning.

Kurt

[kkawohl]

Anonymous Last,

Your keed..ing, art & blood line, are wunderbar.

[kkawohl]

I believe him. I've seen a ghost and I have had incredible synchronicities. I just had a really great one the other day.

Meditation may be okay, but I don't recommend the Transcendental Meditation by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi -- which I've discovered is not easy to learn how to do because you have to attend one of his schools and pay some money. I have heard some horror stories about him and his TM.

Of course, Kawohl there, whoever he is, didn't talk about him.

Howdy Sexy,

You don't need Maharishi Mahesh Yogi or anyone else to meditate...meditation can best be practiced by yourself...just eliminate all thoughts from your mind by repeating one word consistently...

...and you can "Google" "Transcendentalism Today" or "Kurt Kawohl" for more info.

[kkawohl]

Ahh what the hell (scuse the expression), i'll bite... (bout time we had another random lecturer around here ;))...

Thanks for your consideration

I've always thought so. I don't belong to a designated religion tho, and feel happy for that to be honest. I think they guide in the right direction, but people tend to get a bit over-attached to the structural elements like official texts etc (i saw quite an intriguing debate the other day between four "high ranking" Anglicans debating the gay-bishop issues, and was pleased to see how they were prepared to evaluate the bible's texts on varying levels, and to accomodate each others' appraisals. But then they are appealingly non-dogmatic in my experience ;)) The question might be... what control/influence do such moderates and peace-lovers have over the more zealous members of their faith? Next to none i'd say.
Often they have too much control/influence. Fundamentalism and religion is a dangerous combination.

Well, i think you'll find there's even a blind-faith in technology these days amongst some people - and indeed that technology isn't likely to reform the pertinent faculties/elements/tendancies of the human brain just yet (unless you count decreased attention spans and better neuron control over our thumbs for texting as potential dogma-reducers ;))

Now a rational evaluation of modern mystical experiences would be interesting. At the moment we have some "quiet" scientific movement in that direction, in that there have been investigations into brain-damage/stimulations which result in adoption of extreme religious beliefs, visions in migraines and epilepsy, and altered-brain-states under meditation (that i know of - and i must say that my favourite type of scientist always has a "spiritual"/holistic/humble aspect to their work). But an open discussion would be intriguing. If anything it seems to me that some perceive this "technological age" as one which has gone past such considerations or realities - which is a shame (and just plain daft in many ways - I'm thinking mainly here of those rationalists and empiricists who'd like to leave the world of sensation and/or the unexplained behind for the "purity" of thought-alone. That's one of the many types of rational-objectivism i think it's dangerous to think is attainable by a subjective, rationally-investigating, individual)

I agree...where do we find this subjective, rationally-investigating, individual?

I'm afraid i'm not a big fan of the enduring/immortal-personalities idea of heaven - but hell (there we go again) you're the one with the experience (which i don't knock by the way.) But i love the cumulative-One-everywhere amalgam image of "god". Tho for me, it would extend beyond a culmination of the the minds of individuals over time. I prefer to think of "God" as a combination of the "knowledge" contained within all matter over time (in all it's forms). But that's just me ;). I always get a bit worried when "god" gets anthropomorphised in any way - makes me suspicious it's just an self-referential analogy-process our minds like to use (which could almost lead back to the why-do-fanatics-get-produced-by-organised-religion thing)

Truthfulness and rationality in religions are truths that can be substantiated by science or those that can not be proven to be wrong.

Bring it on baby. If we can build even the tiniest building block for such a social step during our time, well, we'll have done a huge amount. Gotta have means and ways and flexible sways tho.

I again agree...so, you being an intellect, what are your suggestions?

Namaste,
Kurt

[SamsoniteDelilah]

...Terrorism is one of our main problems today...so, how can we change Muslim religious ideology to stop terrorism?...
Do you honestly believe that only Muslims attack other people of different faith? Do you read the newspaper at all?

A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. ...
I'll stop you there. This "fanatic passion to please God" has existed through out the ages, with absolutely no proof that anyone ever accomplished the goal of pleasing God. You will not turn others from their faith by denouncing their God. Teach tolerance if you want to do something positive. That will need to include tolerance of all religions, regardless if you think they wear their hair wrong or funny underwear or that they sing too loud. Until we can accept that others have their own way of doing things, we are destined to continue the cycle we're in.

[kkawohl]

When religions are used as a force for shaping and manipulating society it does not mean that its spiritual and altruistic effects are negated but it nevertheless is a manipulation of the masses for selfish or political reasons. Attempts at controlling society by using God as an authoritarian figure or as an angry patriarchal Concept of God has historically always had the indirect dire consequences of motivating peoples desires to please this deity to a point where they will indiscriminately fight and die for that cause. The common man is thereby used as a tool for the political enhancement of the manipulator.

We can see the results of this manipulation most often in the uneducated parts of the world. Fighting between Muslims and Christians in Sudan has for past 21 years been the cause of over two million deaths in that region. Muslims are still told by clerics to expand Islam by any means possible; this supposedly is Allah’s message to Muhammad. This goal of attempting to please Allah has caused strife between Muslims and its neighbors in the Philippines, Malaysia, Cambodia, India and many other regions of the world.

When the truth behind the concept is known, only then can one accurately judge the concept. Spirituality is an interaction of man’s spirit with the Spirit of God. This interaction was often expanded upon by followers who added their own interpretations and gradually the original message was skewed to meet the agenda of the newly formed religion. The complexities, histories, and practices of religions have always been used to indoctrinate and keep new members from questioning the composition of the God that religions have created for the masses. True spirituality and a true God is self-sufficient and requires nothing from mankind. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.

[SpoOkY]

Since Judaism created the present perception of God, it is the duty of Judaism, the originator to bring rationality to a belief in Allah/God if Israel and Judaism wants to live in peace with Muslims.

and what you think the that the jewish community will change their beliefs of God after all this time.......and that this change will make other religious groups do the same. If you believe that them you are truly deluded.

We can eliminate servitude and still have a closeness and love of God. It was man who placed restrictions on himself for the good of mankind and attributed this to God.

If it was man then why does the bible state "as the body without spirit is dead, so faith without deads is dead" (James ch 1:17), seeing as this is meant to be God's word isn't he instructing us to become servents for God in terms of our actions. You tend to generalise sooo much about everything, this drastically reduced your persuasive influence.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

When religions are used as a force for shaping and manipulating society it does not mean that its spiritual and altruistic effects are negated but it nevertheless is a manipulation of the masses for selfish or political reasons. Attempts at controlling society by using God as an authoritarian figure or as an angry patriarchal Concept of God has historically always had the indirect dire consequences of motivating peoples desires to please this deity to a point where they will indiscriminately fight and die for that cause. The common man is thereby used as a tool for the political enhancement of the manipulator.

We can see the results of this manipulation most often in the uneducated parts of the world. Fighting between Muslims and Christians in Sudan has for past 21 years been the cause of over two million deaths in that region. Muslims are still told by clerics to expand Islam by any means possible; this supposedly is Allah?s message to Muhammad. This goal of attempting to please Allah has caused strife between Muslims and its neighbors in the Philippines, Malaysia, Cambodia, India and many other regions of the world.

When the truth behind the concept is known, only then can one accurately judge the concept. Spirituality is an interaction of man?s spirit with the Spirit of God. This interaction was often expanded upon by followers who added their own interpretations and gradually the original message was skewed to meet the agenda of the newly formed religion. The complexities, histories, and practices of religions have always been used to indoctrinate and keep new members from questioning the composition of the God that religions have created for the masses. True spirituality and a true God is self-sufficient and requires nothing from mankind. This is the value of truthfulness and rationality.
If we take this post and strip away the things that are true of all religions... and then delete the generalised rhetoric that you've employed which has no bearing on your actual suggestion... what we're left with is the not-so-advanced concept that you just don't like Muslims. You'll forgive me if I don't rush to sign up with your "cause".

[kkawohl]

and what you think the that the jewish community will change their beliefs of God after all this time.......and that this change will make other religious groups do the same. If you believe that them you are truly deluded.
Ask yourself what position Israel is in now & what it can you do to change that? The answer is in your grasp. Via God’s inspiration of our spirit the seemingly impossible can be accomplished. Sometimes it takes our whole lifetime to realize that our life could have been more productive.

People still relate to superficial possessions and memories and attempt to integrate these with the spiritual. The biggest problem is that not only are many Jews still ignorantly clinging to superstitions, it now is the major cause of escalation into a seemingly never-ending conflict between Muslims, Jews and Christians. The Crusades lasted 300 years with each side claiming God’s support. Now thousand years later the conflict is still continuing. De-superstitionizing religions must begin with Judaism if Jews, Muslims and Christians are ever to subdue religious strife.

If it was man then why does the bible state "as the body without spirit is dead, so faith without deads is dead" (James ch 1:17), seeing as this is meant to be God's word isn't he instructing us to become servents for God in terms of our actions. You tend to generalise sooo much about everything, this drastically reduced your persuasive influence.
By pointing out a flaw and reason for terrorism and violence in the name of religion, my main intent is to make people aware of the futility and intellectual gullibility of societies which have not progressed their beliefs since the Middle Ages and to have open-minded people peruse my writings and offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can to be brought into the 21st Century.

As time passes and when people eventually transcend their religious prejudices (maybe in 100 years) they will no longer say, “I am a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian”; then they will say “I am a Jewish Transcendentalist, a Muslim Transcendentalist, a Christian Transcendentalist”; and thereafter they will say “I am a Transcendentalist”.

[kkawohl]

If we take this post and strip away the things that are true of all religions... and then delete the generalised rhetoric that you've employed which has no bearing on your actual suggestion... what we're left with is the not-so-advanced concept that you just don't like Muslims. You'll forgive me if I don't rush to sign up with your "cause".

Please do not misperceive.

In U.S.A. there are more than 1500 religious denomination and faith groups, including 900 Christian, 100 Hindu and 75 Buddhist denominations.

Perception plays a major role in religions. There are numerous interpretations of the Scriptures, hence there are various sects who use the same source, theTorah, Bible or the Qur'an, but come to different conclusions. Religious differences are acceptable by the majority as long as fanaticism does not cause physical confrontations.

The ironic fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by and having heard the Word of God correctly.

If Jews, Christians and Muslims would ever come to the realization that their God is the same logical deity, rationality would dictate peace and eliminate borders.

[chicagofrog]

1. ALL religions have the same goals and all who live by the basic principles of peace will attain their goal. The problems arise when religious fanaticism arises.

i don't think things are as simple and the main goal of religions is definitely not (mundane) *peace*, or not only.

3. God is a spiritual unity, a oneness, a structured government-like "Spiritual Collective"; the "Progressive and Accumulative Spiritual Intelligence" of the universe existing in a spiritual dimension; a collective of the righteous souls who have passed into the spiritual realm; a spiritual continuity.

well, that's only YOUR definition. a human being's definition. and we humans are all flawed by egoism, egocentrism, pride, instincts, laziness...

What does matter is that we evolve to a point whereby we can encourage open-minded people to offer feedback on how our religious beliefs can be brought into the 21st century.

good point. i'll never believe though that religions have to/should be adapted, modified, modernized... etc etc... they're already adaptable to any epoch/time, since their main goal is to transcend time. it's humans that fail to adapt to both time and religions.

[chicagofrog]

that are the result of their own politics and dogmas that have become
something other than spirituality

if for instance Christians lived by their dogma, being true to it, they wouldn't have killed, and wouldn't now kill anyone. problem is NOT the dogma, it's what humans make of it. like when they don't respect it, or choose to respect the parts more convenient to themselves and their sorry personal interests.

[2wrongs]

The ironic fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by and having heard the Word of God correctly.


Why can't you just say the word of God is true, and the religions interpret what it means, either right or wrong. We don't have to go so far as to say God contradicts Himself, people, and their misinterpretations, do that for Him. What it boils down to is interacting with God on a personal level. Reading His word and asking Him to bless you with understanding and knowledge of the scriptures. The Bible (the word I believe to be true) tells us to fellowship with like minded individuals so that we might encourage one another and be accountable to each other and to God. Also, to pray together and read from God's word together. Where this system is flawed, is when people gather together and then appoint a leader who in turn tries to govern the people with their own understanding of scripture. According to Christian doctrine and the Bible, everyone who believes, has access to God. I think this is where people are fundamentally screwed up. When we put a human in the middle between us and God. Religions set up this system where they take away the direct intercession and personal relationship each individual has the priveledge of having with God on their own. No one needs to tell you what God commands. You have the scriptures and His ear for yourself.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Please do not misperceive.

In U.S.A. there are more than 1500 religious denomination and faith groups, including 900 Christian, 100 Hindu and 75 Buddhist denominations.

Perception plays a major role in religions. There are numerous interpretations of the Scriptures, hence there are various sects who use the same source, theTorah, Bible or the Qur'an, but come to different conclusions. Religious differences are acceptable by the majority as long as fanaticism does not cause physical confrontations.

The ironic fact is that the followers of these religions all claim to live by the Word of God. Many claim that God has personally talked to their messengers who have relayed these Words of God to others. Apparently the Words of God were either misinterpreted, God is contradicting himself, or we start all over again by each side claiming to live by and having heard the Word of God correctly.

If Jews, Christians and Muslims would ever come to the realization that their God is the same logical deity, rationality would dictate peace and eliminate borders.
I don't believe I am mispercieving, but let's put that aside for the time being. I am curious as to how you intend to undertake to unify all religious people. What's the plan, Stan?

[2wrongs]

I don't believe I am mispercieving, but let's put that aside for the time being. I am curious as to how you intend to undertake to unify all religious people. What's the plan, Stan?
Well first let's address your plan of tolerance, Sam.

Despite the fact that you're clearly a loonie bird That's not nice. He had a good response to that, by the way, that you casually overlooked.


I appreciate your opinion SD...yet, let's not insult the loon...and then claim that rationality is in religion today...is that not an oxymoron?

Also,

Teach tolerance if you want to do something positive. That will need to include tolerance of all religions, regardless if you think they wear their hair wrong or funny underwear or that they sing too loud. Until we can accept that others have their own way of doing things, we are destined to continue the cycle we're in....or you think they are looney? How can you preach tolerance at this level to a man you just called, in a nutshell, crazy? Excuse me, if I don't rush off to join your "cause".

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Well first let's address your plan of tolerance, Sam.

That's not nice. He had a good response to that, by the way, that you casually overlooked.




Also,

...or you think they are looney? How can you preach tolerance at this level to a man you just called, in a nutshell, crazy? Excuse me, if I don't rush off to join your "cause".
You're not so much with the reading comprehension, are ya, sissy?

[kkawohl]

I don't believe I am mispercieving, but let's put that aside for the time being. I am curious as to how you intend to undertake to unify all religious people. What's the plan, Stan?

I am soooo glad you asked...though the plan is not by Stan.

That is why I came to a movie forum...where your input is requested.

A fanatic passion to please God has been demonstrated throughout the Ages. We have seen vast destruction and useless killings by religious zealots that have followed us into the present century whereby even technology is unable to quell its tide.

If all the events that occurred as written in the Bible, Qur’an and Torah now, today, would humanity be as gullible now and accept all miracles and God as portrayed then? If the context entails incorrect exegeses and the vast tradition of hermeneutics and the translation is illogical, it is illogical whether it is by my interpretation or by any logic.

Mankind has progressed past a need for a God who desires and requires servitude. We can eliminate servitude and still have a closeness and love of God. It was man who placed restrictions on himself for the good of mankind and attributed this to God. Most of us now live in a lawful society. Now laws are proposed and enforced by governments. God does not, and never has meddled in our affairs.

If we take rationality completely out of context when establishing an association with present day problems between Jews, Christians and Muslims, we can come up with numerous solutions. Reality however dictates that if there were no distinctions between Muslims, Jews, and Christians, strife would be nonexistent. The major distinction is religion.

The best weapon against irrationality is logic. If logic is implemented in religion, eventually the inference of reasoning has to predominate and the illogical will be considered inferior and will ridicule itself out of existence. Today we have at our disposal the means whereby the media can reach even the farthest corners of our world.

How does one confront the passions of people with a logical entreaty to abandon faith? How does one convince a young man that his self-immolation in a bombing will not bring redemption from Allah to his soul and rewards to his people or honor to his family?

If logical reasoning lodges doubt into the mind of a martyr that his soul will be destroyed as a punishment for being the cause of cutting short another soul's ability to attain a bond with Allah/God, eventually the act of self-sacrifice ceases. This is the only effective way that man will eventually attain peace.

We can spend billions of dollars in an attempt to annihilate groups of people who have an adamant fanatical goal to destroy anyone who hinders the path of spreading their religion. They believe that this has been commanded by Allah. The end result will always be the same. The fanatics who are destroyed fuel the hatred of a new group with the same or an even fiercer fervor to die for their Allah if the need arises.

How do we solve this problem? The pen is mightier than the sword. To the illiterate, visual projections via film is the greatest tool. The media and film producers have always shied away from the possibility of offending religious organizations. A fear of the fundamentalists' wrath has even stifled the desire for the truth. Can the real truth be revealed? Will this end strife? Maybe not, but unless we try, we will never know; will we?

True logic is the science of inference and reasoning.

I would like to have a producer make a film of my spiritual experiences described at http://transcendentalists.org

Does anyone here have any ideas on how to go about doing this?

Kurt Kawohl

[SamsoniteDelilah]

This thread is awesome!

[2wrongs]

You're not so much with the reading comprehension, are ya, sissy?
That's all ya got? How disappointing. The same old retort once again from our friend, Sam. How in the hell did I have trouble "reading" what you wrote? Did you or did you not call the guy a looney and then go about preaching your Disneyland-esque fable of tolerance?
Go ahead, sissy...dodge it. :rolleyes:

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I'm intolerant of HIS intolerance.
He no like Muslims... me think that bad.
Wait here, I'll go get the sock puppets and act it out for you.

[kkawohl]

That's all ya got? How disappointing. The same old retort once again from our friend, Sam. How in the hell did I have trouble "reading" what you wrote? Did you or did you not call the guy a looney and then go about preaching your Disneyland-esque fable of tolerance?
Go ahead, sissy...dodge it. :rolleyes:

2 wrongs don't make a right...can we now all meditate...and repeat the word...peeeeaaaccceee...no retorts please, it means peace.

[kkawohl]

I'm intolerant of HIS intolerance.
He no like Muslims... me think that bad.
Wait here, I'll go get the sock puppets and act it out for you.

I lika, lika lika Muslims...as long as they not maka me go booom.

[2wrongs]

Oh now I get it. You're implimenting the Golden Rule. Do Onto Others as They Do Unto You. Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth? You Hit Me, I Hit You. Mmm Hmm. Good stuff. By the way, I'm missing your connection with me not being able to understand how you communicate...maybe you don't "get" the "quote" feature we have around here? What I said before that you quoted out of context, made perfect sense, it's you who is talking like a cave woman and resorting to childish antics and name calling.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Here's the thing, kkawohl... the fly in the ointment. And it's a whopper:

People like to think for themselves.

and the companion fly, if you will:

People think for themselves, based on their own experiences.


So even if you got backing for this film you're proposing, you're going to find that there is a vast array of reaction to it. And the main one, unfortunately (because your vision of peace is a lovely one, I mean that sincerely), is going to be negative. And the REASON that it will be negative is your basic premise: that there is no reason in religion.

People who are religious tend to believe that there is reason in it. And they're going to tend to reject your disparaging approach to their concept of reason, for the very reason that they probably belong to that religion in the first place: it fits with their concept of life and their accumulated life experiences.

As long as you allow for differences in people, and for them to make their own decisions, you are never going to get everyone to subscribe to your particular brand of spirituality, no matter how logical it is from your perspective.

[kkawohl]

.... As long as you allow for differences in people, and for them to make their own decisions, you are never going to get everyone to subscribe to your particular brand of spirituality, no matter how logical it is from your perspective.

I realize that...so what is the solution? Should logic not eventually be implemented in religions?...or should the world continue to wallow in their superstitions?...what you do today may be the first day of a new beginning...if you could be a part of it, what would you do?

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I lika, lika lika Muslims...as long as they not maka me go booom.
haha! Touche. :D
I feel the same about Christians. And Hari Krishnas. And etc etc.
I'd rather not go boom at all, truth be told, no matter who pulls the trigger.

Good luck with your project, guy. I think you need to consider what I said in my last post, but it's your time you're putting into this, so that's up to you. I don't believe that it is possible to unite all people in one religion, or to abolish the cultural and religious identities of the various people on this planet. I'm not even sure that's desirable. Your suggestion that that might be accomplished still strikes me as irrational, for the reasons I gave above. What you're proposing is actually the same sort of world domination plan that you cite as a fault in more established religions. Be that as it may, I hope you come back and let us know how it's going. If you can pull it off, I'll buy a ticket.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

I realize that...so what is the solution? Should logic not eventually be implemented in religions?...or should the world continue to wallow in their superstitions?...what you do today may be the first day of a new beginning...if you could be a part of it, what would you do?
I believe that I take part in it, by encouraging acceptance of people whose lives have shaped them in different ways than mine has me. As long as a person is harming no one, I say they should be allowed to do as they please. And while you assert that religions encourage people to war on others, I will disagree. I believe that greed does that, not religion. Time and again, the evil associated (by the unquestioning) with various religious factions is, if you look closer, being carried out by those elements who are not following the core tenets of the religion they claim to follow. Peace is a basic tenet of every religion, and allowing people to embrace that for themselves is going to be the beginning of peace.

[kkawohl]

haha! Touche. :D
I feel the same about Christians. And Hari Krishnas. And etc etc.
I'd rather not go boom at all, truth be told, no matter who pulls the trigger.

Good luck with your project, guy....If you can pull it off, I'll buy a ticket.

I need people to take part in the implementation of this project...I need suggestions...suggestions...suggestions.

[2wrongs]

[QUOTE]Mankind has progressed past a need for a God who desires and requires servitude. We can eliminate servitude and still have a closeness and love of God. It was man who placed restrictions on himself for the good of mankind and attributed this to God. Most of us now live in a lawful society. Now laws are proposed and enforced by governments. God does not, and never has meddled in our affairs. You're wrong there. In the Old Testament, God instituted the Ten Commandments. It was the Law and it was expected to be obeyed. If you broke the Law, it was expected of you to sacrifice a lamb for your sins. In the New Testament, Jesus was the last sacrifice. He was the "lamb" for all sins past, present and future.
Also, you can't eliminate servitude. God commands us to serve each other as Christ served us. He promotes humbleness and being "low in spirit". This is all according to the Bible of course, so if you don't believe it's the truth then, there you have it.

The major distinction is religion. Which Man created; not God.



How do we solve this problem? The pen is mightier than the sword. To the illiterate, visual projections via film is the greatest tool. The media and film producers have always shied away from the possibility of offending religious organizations. A fear of the fundamentalists' wrath has even stifled the desire for the truth. Can the real truth be revealed? Will this end strife? Maybe not, but unless we try, we will never know; will we? I say do it. Try it. Mel did his labor of love with the Passion of Christ...I say that opens the door for people to be willing to accept religious films as a form of preaching your message. It's a good idea because people can choose whether or not they want to see it. Go for it.

[kkawohl]

Peace is a basic tenet of every religion, and allowing people to embrace that for themselves is going to be the beginning of peace.

Not quite correct...read Muhammad by Karen Armstrong...you will realize that with 1.2 Muslims in existence....many with radical fundamentalist views of spreading Islam at whatever the cost, death or destruction...we may very well be heading into World War III....Arab nations against the infidels....do you really know the truth about why the USA went into Iraq?...to subdue future terrorism.

[kkawohl]

This is all according to the Bible of course, so if you don't believe it's the truth then, there you have it..

Which Man created; not God.

I say do it. Try it. Mel did his labor of love with the Passion of Christ...I say that opens the door for people to be willing to accept religious films as a form of preaching your message. It's a good idea because people can choose whether or not they want to see it. Go for it.

How? I need suggestions.

[2wrongs]

Which Man created; not God. Oooooh. You hit a nerve. You'll have to understand that I DO believe the Bible and with that being said, "...all scripture is God breathed."


How? I need suggestions. Make a blog or something. Reach out to people who think like you do. Pool your money together...make a movie. Research how Michael Moore went about making Roger & Me. He had very little budget but it catapolted him into stardom and he's totally able to make whatever political statement he wants.

[kkawohl]

all scripture is God breathed."


I would say God-inspired, but written by fallible man...whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. A messenger’s spirit’s interaction with God in our present time period, if that person’s mind has voided all superstitions, would interpret the “Will of God” somewhat different than what is written in the Bible...I did.

One must question if the goal of prior messengers was accomplished…& establish therefrom that all religions are basically correct. Prophets of past who claimed having a personal contact with God had been inspired by the spiritual existence, thereby interpreting this ecstasy to the best of their ability and applying this wisdom to a time and date when kings, dictators and tribal leaders ruled the masses. Therefore God was considered a king, ruler, dictator.

------
Getting back to the subject of fim-making....how does one go about finding a Michael Moore wanna-be?...and how do to improve my reputation on this site?...it says I'm not respected...that hurts.

[2wrongs]

I would say God-inspired, but written by fallible man...whose mind interpreted their spirit's interaction with the Spirit of God according to their conditioning in that time period. There will always be subsequent messengers as long as mankind exists. A messenger’s spirit’s interaction with God in our present time period, if that person’s mind has voided all superstitions, would interpret the “Will of God” somewhat different than what is written in the Bible...I did. There's no way that the Bible wasn't exactly the way God wanted it. If you set a man down in front of some paper and a pen and you told him to write the world's answer to salvation, there's no way he'd come up with," Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..." he also wouldn't write that, "...all have fallen short of the Glory of God." Man is used to thinking he can "earn" his way into heaven and the Bible directly tells us, no.

Getting back to the subject of fim-making....how does one go about finding a Mchael Moore wanna-be? Go to film school.

[kkawohl]

There's no way that the Bible wasn't exactly the way God wanted it

So be it...if you prefer.

God tells Moses that ANY work done on the Sabbath is punishable by death.
Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Numbers 15:32
15:35 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Shall I name numerous more instances of irrationality?

Times have changed & our minds and spirit needs to adapt to these changes.

[SpoOkY]

if you look closer, being carried out by those elements who are not following the core tenets of the religion they claim to follow. Peace is a basic tenet of every religion, and allowing people to embrace that for themselves is going to be the beginning of peace.

This was the generalisation I was talking about in my post, can't you see Kurt that it is small factions who are not following the imperative dotrines of their religions who are causing all the harm. It is not the religions themselves.

What's the one thing people will fight for....freedom of course. To unify all religions will take away that freedom of religion. I think more wars and more struggle will all that will be found by taking this path of unification. Even the claim that religious groups have got their religion's incorrectly based will be frowned upon and fought against. People die for their religions and you think these people can be swayed without a fight? It's simply not that easy and would be impossible in my opinion to achieve this unification.

[2wrongs]

So be it...if you prefer.

God tells Moses that ANY work done on the Sabbath is punishable by death.
Exodus 31:14 Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Numbers 15:32
15:35 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the Sabbath day. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Shall I name numerous more instances of irrationality?

Times have changed & our minds and spirit needs to adapt to these changes.That's the difference between the Old Testament and the New. Jesus came and paid the ulitmate price. The old ways are over and are now used as a means to show how far we've fallen from grace.
God also killed people for entering the temple in an unclean matter; now, you come to church and repent and you're forgiven.
It's a concept that not a lot of non-Christians understand. After you give your life over to Christ, you are not a slave to the Law and sin.

[uconjack]

HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Stones, sir?
MANDY:
Naah. They've got a lot there, lying around on the ground.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Oh, not like these, sir. Look at this. Feel the quality of that. That's craftsmanship, sir.
MANDY:
Hmmm. Aah, all right. We'll have, uh, two with points and... a big flat one.
BRIAN:
Could I have a flat one, Mum?
MANDY:
Shh!
BRIAN:
Sorry. Dad.
MANDY:
Ehh, all right. Two points, ah, two flats, and a packet of gravel.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Packet of gravel. Should be a good one this afternoon.
MANDY:
Hehh?
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Local boy.
MANDY:
Oh, good.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Enjoy yourselves.

[kkawohl]

Even the claim that religious groups have got their religion's incorrectly based will be frowned upon and fought against. People die for their religions and you think these people can be swayed without a fight? It's simply not that easy and would be impossible in my opinion to achieve this unification.
God is like a Master Planner who/that guides the universe rather than one who controls it. God is not this mighty ruler who wishes to enslave mankind, but a peaceful coexistence of the spirits or souls of many of our forefathers, past prophets, and all who lived righteously. Cultures change with time. God has always been the same, but our perception of God will vary with time.

Transcendentalism is an effort to stop the killings over religious misperceptions by attempting to implement religious rationality, which today is an oxymoron.

As time passes and when people eventually transcend their religious prejudices (maybe in 100 years) they will no longer say, “I am a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian”; then they will say “I am a Jewish Transcendentalist, a Muslim Transcendentalist, a Christian Transcendentalist”; and thereafter they will say “I am a Transcendentalist”.

See http://transcendentalism.us

[kkawohl]

After you give your life over to Christ, you are not a slave to the Law and sin.

A slave is a slave....if you must obey the master...which is the church doctrine...God does not need nor want slaves.

L. Michael White:
Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin

From a historical perspective what we really know about the life of Jesus is very, very limited depending on which gospel you read. His actual career may be something less then one year and maybe even as little as only a few months, whereas in John's Gospel his career is nearly three years long. So there are these kinds of historical discrepancies among the gospels themselves. They range from the way his birth occurred to the actual day on which he was executed and even to the kinds of teachings and miracles that he performs throughout his career. As a result we begin to see that the gospels themselves are not as useable as historical information as we might have hoped.

[kkawohl]

HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Stones, sir?
MANDY:
Naah. They've got a lot there, lying around on the ground.
HARRY THE HAGGLER:
Oh, not like these, sir. Look at this. Feel the quality of that. That's craftsmanship, sir.

Agreed...and preachers are like HARRY THE HAGGLER.

[chicagofrog]

If all the events that occurred as written in the Bible, Qur’an and Torah

real tolerance would begin when you consider other religions than the three ones believing in an almighty god, plus the ones believing in several gods. monotheism has been the historical source of religious intolerance and fanatism, after all.

[chicagofrog]

Which Man created; not God.


that is materialism incarnate. so stop speaking about religious matters, and "spiritual but not religious" and blahblah, i read more deep thoughts on match.com... :eek:
meaning, if you don't believe it, admit it, and don't come explaining to people what they should believe in and what not.

[Anonymous Last]

Whenever I look for God, religion always stands in my way.

[Tea Barking]

Noone has mentioned the jedi religion, may the force be with you.
Startrek isn't far behind either, live long and prosper.

[kkawohl]

real tolerance would begin when you consider other religions than the three ones believing in an almighty god, plus the ones believing in several gods. monotheism has been the historical source of religious intolerance and fanatism, after all.

GOD PROCLAIMS

I am God, the God from the beginning of God.
I did not come from nowhere.
I play no magic tricks on man.
I did not create the earth by casting spells.
I had a humble beginning the same as man;
My beginning was at the dawn of spirituality.
My wisdom grows as more spirits unite
After the cessation of life after much physical strife.
Throughout time I have been named God,
Allah, Jehovah, The Great Spirit, and many more.
I do not judge man for his vanity or naivety
To be the one who claims to please me the most.
I am easy to please. I require very little.
I only want you to do what is best for mankind.
I will bless you and wish you well.
I will inspire your mind and you will
Accomplish the unfathomable.
I require no worship. I need nothing from man.
I am self sufficient. I am spirit.

Develop your spirit wisely, the best that you can.
Live your life for the betterment of man.
Your spirit will soon be with me and then
Together we will see and traverse the universe.
There are many wonders to behold,
Your spirit will soar.
You will partake in all the wisdom
That has been gathered from the beginning of time.
The stars will be your playground.
You can play with the animals,
Be with your loved ones,
Listen to the greatest opera,
Stage or musical performances,
Or you can just relax next to a bubbling brook
And enjoy the scenery.
You feel no pain, despair,
Heartache, or negative emotions.
You are now One with me.
You are with God my child.

Kurt
http://transcendentalists.org

[chicagofrog]

yeah, well, i guess that's what some call a transcendental answer...........

[kkawohl]

Whenever I look for God, religion always stands in my way.

touche

[chicagofrog]

and i thought i had a tendency to masturbate too often...
at least i don't need an audience and i don't try to convince them of the advantages of masturbation.

[kkawohl]

yeah, well, i guess that's what some call a transcendental answer...........

transcendental can mean supernatural, superior or supreme

your opinion is which?

[2wrongs]

A slave is a slave....if you must obey the master...which is the church doctrine...God does not need nor want slaves. This is only half true. God doesn't want slaves in a sense. Just like I have a son and I expect him to do as I tell him, he is not my slave. However, we, as humans, are slaves to sin. We are unable to NOT sin apart from God. God promises us that through Jesus, he can offer redemption and freedom from the bondage of sin. In 2Peter, Peter talks about false teachers and has this to say," ...They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity-for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him." God requires obediance from us; when we fall short, He gently rebukes us through conviction and ultimately...repentance.

L. Michael White:
Professor of Classics and Director of the Religious Studies Program University of Texas at Austin

From a historical perspective what we really know about the life of Jesus is very, very limited depending on which gospel you read. His actual career may be something less then one year and maybe even as little as only a few months, whereas in John's Gospel his career is nearly three years long. So there are these kinds of historical discrepancies among the gospels themselves. They range from the way his birth occurred to the actual day on which he was executed and even to the kinds of teachings and miracles that he performs throughout his career. As a result we begin to see that the gospels themselves are not as useable as historical information as we might have hoped. This is some guy's opinion and now I'll give you mine based on the understanding of scripture. God used all four men to tell the story of Christ in the way that each one was best suited. It is folly to think that he would sit four individual men down and have them all write the exact same testimony. There are some overlapping in each of the Gospels, but God wanted each man to tell it how He wanted them to with their own individual abilities. He used Matthew to show that Jesus was the Messiah of the Old Testament. He used Mark to record the events in Jesus' life using facts and actions rather than themes or topics. It is the shortest Gospel, but the most detailed. God obviouslt chose him for his memory of details.
Luke, the doctor, was an educated man. His Gospel is long and full of the true and complete life and works of Jesus. He gives more attention to how Jesus interacted with children which as a doctor, must have had a huge impact on Luke.
John, last but not least, was used by God to give an accurate outline of Jesus' life. It reports miracles that the other's didn't write about. The other's used a lot of Jesus' parables, where John's account doesn't talk about the parables. The purpose of this Gospel was to record the sign, wonders and miracles. John gives great attention to the human nature of Jesus, often commenting how Jesus was tired, sad, hungry and loving...it's my favorite book. I hope this shows how the books are different for a very good reason.

[chicagofrog]

transcendental can mean supernatural, superior or supreme
your opinion is which?

my opinion is, after visiting yr website, that any religion is superior, more supreme and supernatural than yr theories (that are not new either, people possessed by their ego have already created thousand so-called "spiritual" movements in this *New Age*, blending the elements appealing to their small self-interest and ego and belly button :sick: , since it's much easier than transcending yrself on the base of rules that are not here to be convenient, or make you feel good, but to improve you, against yr dominating ego.

[kkawohl]

This is only half true. .

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/

The Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D. selected the specific four for their own purposes.

I do not wish to dispute the validity of Jesus here.

Jesus has been appropriately called the "Son of God" and "Prince of Peace". We are often reminded of the teachings of Jesus whose words have survived two millennia. His disciples kept him alive in the memories of all who heard and believed his words. They, as well as other "Men of God" who contributed to the compilation of the scriptures of the Bible, were inspired by God to give us guidelines to live by.

My dispute is with the prejudicial, exclusive method of portraying the Christian faith.

[kkawohl]

my opinion is...

I sincerely thank you for your frank opinion & will I will attempt to deflate my ego...but I have been given a mission to complete & only a few years left to accomplish it...mainly an attempt at religious rationality...your suggestions are very helpful....thanks

[2wrongs]

See http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ No thanks. I don't like getting my biblical information off the internet. Just a turn off for me. :)

The Catholic Church in the 4th century A.D. selected the specific four for their own purposes. Yeah, I know. I'm not Catholic (not that there's anything wrong with it) so I disagree with a lot of what the Catholic church did back in the day to keep their thumb firmly pressed on the people. I don't know about them selecting those four books, I do know they left some books out and included some books after the basic Bible that we still read today, was put together.

I do not wish to dispute the validity of Jesus here. Good. :)

Jesus has been appropriately called the "Son of God" and "Prince of Peace". We are often reminded of the teachings of Jesus whose words have survived two millennia. His disciples kept him alive in the memories of all who heard and believed his words. They, as well as other "Men of God" who contributed to the compilation of the scriptures of the Bible, were inspired by God to give us guidelines to live by. He's either a liar, a lunatic, or who He said He was. We can rule out "liar" because you'd have to have a good reason to lie all the way to a death sentance and humiliation, not to mention stringing these disciples along and leading them down a road to execution.
We can rule out lunatic because there isn't any evidence of other strange behavior in the Bible. He didn't talk to "people in his mind" or rant and rave or inflict bodily injury on Himself or have conflicting stories about who He is, where he came from...yes the miracles are quite strange and unbelievable but there were always witnesses and testimony. He didn't come running over to people and say," Guess what I just did!"
So He is who He said He was.

My dispute is with the prejudicial, exclusive method of portraying the Christian faith.Please explain.

[chicagofrog]

I sincerely thank you for your frank opinion & will I will attempt to deflate my ego...but I have been given a mission to complete & only a few years left to accomplish it...mainly an attempt at religious rationality...your suggestions are very helpful....thanks

nice.
what i meant is we all have an ego thru which our opinions go and are expressed. for me, the only help to transcend it is rightly those rules you criticized so much. problem is, when they're imposed upon you and you cannot choose (like in some political/religious regimes), but once one has chosen, one is not a slave since one has chosen to obey rules that are helping to forget/overwhelm/vanquish one's ego.
too many people would follow this religion A but don't accept not to eat meat, and take other elements from religion B cuz they find 'em nice and reject a given religion C since it's their parents' etc etc... what, in one person, makes these judgments? if not the ego?
that is what has to be transcended.

[Anonymous Last]

...but I have been given a mission
That made me think of these guys...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/avatars/70229c72.jpg

You see, we're on a mission from God.

[chicagofrog]

You see, we're on a mission from God.

Anonymous... i knew it!! ;) :p :p

[kkawohl]

So He is who He said He was.

Please explain, "My dispute is with the prejudicial, exclusive method of portraying the Christian faith".

All religions have the same goals & all who live righteously will achieve it, whether they believe Jesus was a God when he lived on earth or not. Jesus is now a part of God, as are other souls. Jesus never required to be worshiped by man.

The Scenario


The souls of a Rabbi, a Christian minister, and a Islamic cleric appeared at the gates of heaven at the same time and they eye each other suspiciously. St. Peter (the gatekeeper) asked if there is a problem.

The Rabbi tells St. Peter , "Ours is the true religion. We have the word of God that this is so and it is written in the Torah that God said that we are the chosen children of God, not the Christians or the Muslims."

The Christian minister says, "Jesus told us that he is the son of God and that the only way to God was by following his teachings and that unless one is born again, one would not get into heaven. What Jesus said is the word of God and it is written in the holy Bible".

The Muslim cleric says, "God has told Muhammad that he was the last true prophet and that everything that God told him was written in the Koran and that those who did not follow what was written there, would not get into heaven".

Other souls appeared and some sided with and gathered around each of their leaders, while some other souls who sided with no one entered directly through the gates of heaven.

St. Peter told the souls who had gathered around the souls of their clerics, "In heaven there can be no disagreement and until you all are in agreement, you have to move to the Purgatory area".

No agreement was reached and eventually the souls died (Hell) because souls who were not with God could not exist.

The lesson is: Having tunnel-vision or being closed-minded, without compassion for the belief of others around you can be bad for the body and suicide to the soul.

[Anonymous Last]

Anonymous... i knew it!! ;) :p :p

God save you…for it’s even out of my capable hands now.

[kkawohl]

You see, we're on a mission from God.

Yup, Yup, Yup...we're ALL on a mission.

Our life on earth is to prepare us and to give us examples of the hereafter. Everything is progressive and accumulative. We are here to accumulate experiences of feelings, the beauty of every organism that surrounds us, the landscape that adds to our perception; then we can begin our next journey.

We should live our life to its fullest. One hundred years from now, almost every single person alive today will have died. Several billion people, wiped off the face of this earth. Our life is but a blip on the radar screen of time.

We are the most important person responsible for whether our soul will live or die. Here we have to learn how to intertwine with a community; there we can experience anything that the imagination can perceive.

Envision yourself as a spirit that is uninhibited by any resistance or external influences; you can travel to any star or planet instantly, explore the beauty of the universe, and still be in sync with God.

As an example: Imagine the most advanced form of Virtual Reality that can access a super-computer and place you in whichever setting you desire; you can play with the animals, be with your loved ones, listen to the greatest opera, stage or musical performances, or simply relax next to a bubbling brook and enjoy the scenery. You feel no pain, despair, heartache, or negative emotions.

God is like a Master Planner who/that guides the universe rather than one who controls it. God is not this mighty ruler who wishes to enslave mankind, but a peaceful coexistence of the spirits or souls of many of our forefathers, past prophets, and all who lived righteously. Cultures change with time. God has always been the same, but our perception of God will vary with time.

[2wrongs]

The lesson is: Having tunnel-vision or being closed-minded, without compassion for the belief of others around you can be bad for the body and suicide to the soul.
No. The lesson is: All roads can not lead to God and I'll tell you why. It would mean that God contradicts Himself. Why would God want to confuse everyone? I say do some soul searching on your own. Pray to God to have him show you the way. I've read what other "truthes" have to say. I don't want to know the gods of any other religion. I don't want to know a god that sets the bar this high, and then watches as you fail to reach it. I don't want to know a god that doesnt want to know me. The God of the Bible preaches more than just blind faith and worship. See for yourself.

[Anonymous Last]

I don't want to know the gods of any other religion. The God of the Bible preaches more than just blind faith and worship.


I know, thank God! The other ones were hurting my brain.

[2wrongs]

I never know when you're being serious.

[kkawohl]

All roads can not lead to God .
I said all roads which lead to God...

Many Christians state that there is only one straight and narrow road that leads to God. This is incorrect. All roads which lead to God can bring the soul to its destination. The roads may be curved and circular at times, but if one chooses one's objective and abides thereby, the goal will be achieved....so, live righteously & you will attain your goal.

Bye for now...lunch time.

[2wrongs]

The roads may be curved and circular at times, but if one chooses one's objective and abides thereby, the goal will be achieved....so, live righteously & you will attain your goal.

Romans 3:10-12
"There is no one righteous,
not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away..."

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."~John 16:6

*Good luck with your "attaining your goal".

[Anonymous Last]

I said all roads which lead to God...

Many Christians state that there is only one straight and narrow road that leads to God. This is incorrect. All roads which lead to God can bring the soul to its destination. The roads may be curved and circular at times, but if one chooses one's objective and abides thereby, the goal will be achieved....so, live righteously & you will attain your goal.

Bye for now...lunch time.


When I sit and think about the road to God that I take...I found it that there was no one else on that road. So there must be other roads. Right?

...may be curved and circular...

This made me think of breasts!

[kkawohl]

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."~John 16:6

*Good luck with your "attaining your goal".

Thanks for the good luck wish...which you may rescind after reading the following.

...as to the quote by John...it must have been John's interpretation of what Jesus said...which I really, really doubt that he did...but if he did then he either had a super ego, was mistaken, was prejudiced against other religions, practiced exclusivity, and was wrong...unless he was referring to his natural, physical father with the latter part.

[kkawohl]

When I sit and think about the road to God that I take...I found it that there was no one else on that road. So there must be other roads. Right?

If that's where you are going then it is a correct analysis, maestro.

...may be curved and circular...This made me think of breasts! now there is a man who appreciates good art.

[2wrongs]

Thanks for the good luck wish...which you may rescind after reading the following.

...as to the quote by John...it must have been John's interpretation of what Jesus said...which I really, really doubt that he did...but if he did then he either had a super ego, was mistaken, was prejudiced against other religions, practiced exclusivity, and was wrong...unless he was referring to his natural, physical father with the latter part.
Or it's the truth since you already confirmed Jesus was the Son of God. Why would He say something that profound about Joeseph? If you want to believe that He said it because of a "super ego" then you better take back what you said about Him being the Son of God...you can't have it two ways. You can't go around telling people that God has a super ego...they'll be like, "Duh, he's God." :rolleyes:

[Anonymous Last]

You can't go around telling people that God has a super ego...they'll be like, "Duh, he's God." :rolleyes:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/c.jpg

[kkawohl]

Or it's the truth since you already confirmed Jesus was the Son of God. Why would He say something that profound about Joeseph? If you want to believe that He said it because of a "super ego" then you better take back what you said about Him being the Son of God...you can't have it two ways. You can't go around telling people that God has a super ego...they'll be like, "Duh, he's God." :rolleyes:

Jesus remained faithful to his principles of peace and love, bravely defying those who attempted to crown him as the “King of the Jews” and to lead the fight against their opposition, represented the epitome of what it means to lead a righteous life, thereby being a child of God; he was in a true sense, the “Son of God”.

Jesus was a man & his body died; He was a messenger of God. His spirit/soul (He) is now a part of God, so if you say Jesus is now God you are correct. There is no other God besides the God that Jesus is now a part of.

God, or Jesus is spirit & owns nothing & created nothing. God guided the development of the universe like a Master Planner. God does not command anything or anyone & "He" does not need to order anyone around. God is self-sufficient & needs nothing from man.

What is needed today is A religious ideology that encompasses the blending of major religions. This would require the major emphasis to be on spirituality rather than the dogmas tied to superstitions that have been carried over from medieval times.

[kkawohl]

You can't go around telling people that God has a super ego...they'll be like, "Duh, he's God." :rolleyes:

I said...it must have been John's interpretation of what Jesus said...which I really, really doubt that he did...but if (if, if) he did then he either had a super ego, was mistaken, was prejudiced against other religions, practiced exclusivity, and was wrong.

[chicagofrog]

tis all christian stuff here, i give up!

[Anonymous Last]

tis all christian stuff here, i give up!

May the Force be with you!

[chicagofrog]

May the Force be with you!

oh, but it is, it is...
:p

[kkawohl]

tis all christian stuff here, i give up!
Awww c'mon...when the opposition gets rational....eventually we'll get back to basics.

[kkawohl]

May the Force be with you!

I no lika de Forts, I lika clean smelling peace.

[Anonymous Last]

I no lika de Forts, I lika clean smelling peace.

Then don't smell ze hands that survive from ze battle in your undies!

Word Yo!

[chicagofrog]

Then don't smell ze hands that survive from ze battle in your undies!

:laugh: :skeptical: erm... you do wash undies / yr hands in the US, dontcha? ;)

[Anonymous Last]

:laugh: :skeptical: erm... you do wash undies / yr hands in the US, dontcha? ;)


What the hell do you think Saturdays are for? Sheeesh!

[chicagofrog]

What the hell do you think Saturdays are for? Sheeesh!

you mean, like, ALL FOUR saturdays ???
isn't that a bit too frequent??

[Anonymous Last]

you mean, like, ALL FOUR saturdays ???
isn't that a bit too frequent??

I just want you to know that every time you post behind me with such silly nonsense... I take out my sweet revenge on stuff french poodles.

Please help the stuff poodles for the price of just a coffee a day. OK?
This time take the coffee orally.

[chicagofrog]

Please help the stuff poodles for the price of just a coffee a day. OK?
This time take the coffee orally.

:furious: the only thing i do orally is.......
ok, forget it...

[Anonymous Last]

:furious: the only thing i do orally is.......
ok, forget it...

Watch your tongue and go brush those teefers. This is a God thread...have some dignity.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

This thread got a lot better at the end. :up:

[chicagofrog]

Watch your tongue and go brush those teefers. This is a God thread...have some dignity.

uh???
duh!
i was thinking taking the host, you know, god's flesh?

[Anonymous Last]

uh???
duh!
i was thinking taking the host, you know, god's flesh?

Sick bastard...those are crackers! I'm still looking for a church that serves em' with cheese.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

If they're going to give you wine and crackers, it's the civilized thing to include cheese.

[Anonymous Last]

If they're going to give you wine and crackers, it's the civilized thing to include cheese.

I know! With the great Lord sentencing me to Wisconsin, you would think that I could find a church that serves correctly. I mean damn! The family restaurants out here serve their apple pies with a slice of cheese on em'.

[chicagofrog]

If they're going to give you wine and crackers, it's the civilized thing to include cheese.

supposed to be... god's what exactly??
(oh no! i said "what" again!)

[SamsoniteDelilah]

supposed to be... god's what exactly??
(oh no! i said "what" again!)
I dunno, exactly.
I also don't really know what "brisket" is, so I'm going to go with it's God's brisket.

[Anonymous Last]

I think in the case of, The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit it should be a Triscuit.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/th_rnt_nib_triscuit.jpg

[SamsoniteDelilah]

:rotfl:

ok, we're all going to hell, but it's going to be quite the party! :D

[chicagofrog]

http://www.lanceandeskimo.com/chefelf/images/rnt_nib_triscuit.jpg

you shall not steal!
:p

[Anonymous Last]

you shall not steal!
:p


All I did was trespass.

[chicagofrog]

All I did was trespass.

yeah well now bypass!!!!!!!!!!! :p

[Anonymous Last]

yeah well now bypass!!!!!!!!!!! :p


I cleaned up my mess.

[chicagofrog]

I cleaned up my mess.

you're forgiven, after all you were born 02/06 just like this frog... and i know how difficult stars made it for us...

[Anonymous Last]

I'll deal with those stars on my own terms...my way!

[chicagofrog]

I'll deal with those stars on my own terms...my way !

don't worry, we'll let you do it yr milky way ...

(Happy Xmas, i'm off! see you if i survive all this snow and digestion and singing and schmaltzy movies...)

[Anonymous Last]

(Happy Xmas, i'm off! see you if i survive all this snow and digestion and singing and schmaltzy movies...)


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/ANONYMOUSLAST/chevyxmasvacrev1mp.jpg

[kkawohl]

Your critique is requested at

http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=9542

Kurt

[chicagofrog]

nope

[kkawohl]

Greetings

O.K. guys, let's get serious. The movie idea will have to wait. I am asking for your help in a new endeavor.

I'm a transcendentalist & rationalist, non-religious but spiritual.

Many of today’s societies are still inundated with religious inconsistencies
that are the result of their own politics and dogmas that have become
something other than spirituality; they are wrought with superstitions that
are also resulting in acts of terrorism. Terrorists are eager to die for the
promotion of their causes and are also killing others because of a twisted
religion that has them believing they will be rewarded for their
faithfulness. Even intellectuals in modern societies have been brainwashed
by clinging to beliefs that still subscribe to the antiquated unscientific
concept of a personal powerful God that was structured after kings, lords
and domineering tyrants who controlled the masses.

Spirituality is the spiritual aspect of a person that encompasses the spirit
and controls sense. Common sense and rationality dictates that what man has
called God is in reality a spiritual unity in the spiritual dimension that
has never interfered with and needs nothing from mankind.

I would like to enlist your help in changing the face of religions. Can you
envision the worldwide headlines if atheists and believers started declaring
their allegiance to a modern rational deity that is a spirit which has never meddled in the affairs of mankind? Eventually prejudicial exclusive religions would be considered passé.

Albert Einstein stated, “The religion of the future will be a cosmic
religion. It should transcend a personal God and avoid dogmas and theology.
Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a
religious sense arising from the experience of all things, natural and
spiritual, as a meaningful unity. Everyone who is seriously interested in
the pursuit of science becomes convinced that a spirit is manifest in the
laws of the universe—a spirit vastly superior to man, and one in the face of
which our modest powers must feel humble."

Your opinion is appreciated. I have started the ball rolling. Please see

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=transcendentalism+today

http://www.authorzone.com/view_authors.php?authorid=1426

Namaste,

Kurt Kawohl

[kkawohl]

I'm looking for writers. Writers in various religions have indicated an interest to create a logical future historical interpretation of their community and then classify it, as an example "Transcendentalism - A New Revelation, Modern Christianity, Volume One by Author ??". If you would be willing to follow the guidelines of applying complete logic and rationality to your writings, I would consider paying for the publishing cost of your book.

Kurt

[chicagofrog]

[QUOTE]I'm a transcendentalist & rationalist, non-religious but spiritual.

that already says it all, and you're talking "inconsistencies".

they are wrought with superstitions

define superstitions.

concept of a personal powerful God that was structured after kings, lords
and domineering tyrants who controlled the masses.

you don't even see all troubles began with the loss of the sacred, concerning the sacred character of kings and lords, precisely.

God is in reality a spiritual unity in the spiritual dimension that
has never interfered with and needs nothing from mankind.

you're a symbol of nowadays's troubles and what caused in the first place the loss of the sacred i mentioned above: dualism ( :sick: :down: ), separating the divine from mankind. :(

last but not least, what the hell (pun intended) does it have to do with movie(forum)s? :rolleyes: :eek: :mad: :(

[chicagofrog]

this thread died on the cross...

[Anonymous Last]

this thread died on the cross...


Others might argue that theory...

[chicagofrog]

does really someone here like arguing?

[firegod]

I know this is old, but I feel an uncontrollable urge to address this:


He's either a liar, a lunatic, or who He said He was. We can rule out "liar" because you'd have to have a good reason to lie all the way to a death sentance and humiliation, not to mention stringing these disciples along and leading them down a road to execution.
We can rule out lunatic because there isn't any evidence of other strange behavior in the Bible. He didn't talk to "people in his mind" or rant and rave or inflict bodily injury on Himself or have conflicting stories about who He is, where he came from...yes the miracles are quite strange and unbelievable but there were always witnesses and testimony. He didn't come running over to people and say," Guess what I just did!"
So He is who He said He was.


I'm thinking that some Christian apologetic like Josh McDowell has been teaching you some very faulty theories that you have just been accepting at face value, Sades. This Liar, Lunatic, Real Deal mumbo jumbo is completey filled with logical fallacies. To accept that Jesus had to be one of the three things you mentioned, you have to accept as facts many things that simply have not been proven as facts.

Don't you see the circular logic in basically saying, "what the bible says about Jesus being our savior is true! Just look at what the bible says about him! Based on what the bible teaches us, he must be a liar, lunatic or the savior, so what the bible says about him is true!" Huh? Yes, that is what you seem to be saying, and it's very unreasonable to say the least.

In addition to the logical fallacy of needing to first believe in the new testament as fact in order to accept this idea that is attempting to prove the new testament as fact, you also have to accept as fact that he couldn't have been a lunatic because he didn't display himself as one. All people as delusional as the Jesus of the Holy Bible would have to have been if he were not a liar or the savior would have to jump around like goofballs or reveal their lunacy with contradictions? Not in my experience. And these bizarre acts or contradictions not being in the bible does not necessitate that they didn't happen in front of ANYONE, even if the entire account of Jesus in the new testament is true; just not in front of the right people, necessarily.

You also have to believe that he couldn't have been a liar, because only a lunatic would take the risks that this hypothetical Jesus liar took. Well, he could have been both a lunatic and a liar, but that takes us nowhere new. How many times have people risked their lives in the name of greed, power hunger, or whatever motive this jesus liar could have had? Are they all completely insane? Hardly.

Basically none of the claim makes sense to me, but hey, I'm just a wacky atheist. I probably need to have the Lord on my side to understand these sorts of things. ;) Well, I guess I got a little bit carried away here. Just call me Gol Jr.

[SamsoniteDelilah]

Talking logic to 2wrongs was next to impossible when she was here.
Now that she's gone, it's really a waste of time.
But it's nice to see soemone who knows how to use it. Logic, that is.

[firegod]

Oh, I bet she'll read it. Like myself, she seems to have a hard time staying away. :)

[Sexy Celebrity]

I'm thinking that some Christian apologetic like Josh McDowell has been teaching you some very faulty theories that you have just been accepting at face value, Sades.
:skeptical:

Sades? 2wrongs is Sadesdrk?

[firegod]

:skeptical:

Sades? 2wrongs is Sadesdrk?

Yup yup.