View Full Version : Westworld, Season 2 (no outside theories!)
http://cdn1us.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeekus/files/2018/04/westworld-season-2-soundtrack_0.jpg
The original Westworld thread is pretty long, and for shows like this (with a lot of interest and speculation) we often do individual season threads so people can read along without having to worry too much about putting everything in spoiler tags.
Addendum, though: would like to exclude random theories we all read elsewhere on the Internet from this thread. They potentially ruined a lot of last season. I realize most of them were not spoilers because people didn't know if they were true, but sometimes when the entire Internet is crowdsourcing a theory, it can be so good that it might as well be a spoiler.
On the other hand, speculation is fun! But I think it makes more sense for it to be done in smaller groups, with the users here. I think theorizing with friends is a lot of fun but theorizing with the entire Internet brain is less so.
Anyway, have at it! :) I'm kinda swamped right now but will try to get some general thoughts up about the season 2 premiere later.
TheUsualSuspect
04-23-18, 12:57 PM
So I read this theory online, it's pretty good.
Made you look.
gandalf26
04-23-18, 01:17 PM
Enjoyed S1 but it never really blew me away.
Watched S2E1 this morning, I'm a bit perplexed as to what's going on but will keep watching.
Weird thing that probably doesn’t mean too much:
In the opening with Bernard waking on on the beach, Trevor from GTA tries to stop the Delos guys from shooting female hosts. In the flashback to the direct aftermath of Dolores going loco crazy, he’s shooting women with milk dude.
Oh, and if my memory serves (it doesn’t)...
wasn’t Teddy’s last personality upgrade that he and Wyatt (Dolores) were arch-enemies?
TheUsualSuspect
04-23-18, 01:43 PM
Watched S2E1 this morning, I'm a bit perplexed as to what's going on but will keep watching.
A bunch of timelines.
We open with Arnold and Dolores, which is 30 odd years ago, he had a dream about being left behind in the water.
Flash-forward to Bernard waking up in water, which is two weeks after the host revolt. Now the show changes between Immediate Revolt Aftermath and Two Weeks After with Delos. So Bernard is all over the place right now.
He's in an underground lair where Charlotte is taking guests DNA and video from hosts, for blackmail maybe? She tries sneaking a package outside the park with Dolores' father. Package has not arrived yet so the team won't come in to rescue people?
Dolores is on a killing spree, killing guests/board members and other hosts. Teddy doesn't seem happy about it and he ends up dead in the final scene being one of the many hosts who are in the water. Interested in seeing where that goes.
Man in Black is on his own mission, finally having fun with the game.
Maeve is looking for her daughter.
Repost from other thread:
Consider every post I make involve small spoilers for the released episode.
So it seems that we are continuing multiple timelines and this time they are not hiding it. The causal mention of at least 6 parks was interesting.
"Get of my F----ing island" when arguing with a Chinese soldier. Possible location confirmed?
Man in Black finally gets what he wants, is given another "mission".
Maeve look great, taking control, her story will be one to look forward to I think.
Bernard will continue to "hide" his true self from people.
I was interested in how they would continue from the ending to last season. Did not disappoint.
While the opening was a little disjointed, I think there is enough set-up for the upcoming season.
__________________
"A laugh can be a very powerful thing. Why, sometimes in life, it's the only weapon we have."
Maeve and Rodrigo meeting up was pretty sweet. (edit to add Hector)
About to have a rewatch. I really enjoyed it. Nay, I loved it.
ETA: I asked Mr D if
Sizemore had half a woody. He just laughed. Any takers on that question here for lil ole me? TIA
what the helll, you manly mofos get to make such pertinent observations about the ladies so I thought I'd give it a go this time around.
I do like that character though. Some of you might recall I was one of maybe 1 or 2 who does like the character.
http://cdn1us.denofgeek.com/sites/denofgeekus/files/2018/04/westworld-season-2-soundtrack_0.jpg
.
Is that promo or fanmade, Yods? Stunning.
Promo. And yeah, they really kill it with the symbolism on this show.
Here’s a helpful rundown of season one events, if anyone needs it (SPOILERS, obviously):
http://collider.com/westworld-timeline-explained/
It wasn’t until I read it that i understood what that buried church was about. : /
Maeve look great, taking control, her story will be one to look forward to I think.
I hope it’s not 10 episodes of Maeve and Hector, two interesting characters, and writer douche wandering around the park trying to find the girl and then coming across something like, oh, she’s happy with her new family or she’s already dead in the water and Maeve going “I guess im alone ¯\_(ツ)_/¯”...
But I got a strong feeling that it will be.
TheUsualSuspect
04-24-18, 02:21 PM
Here’s a helpful rundown of season one events, if anyone needs it (SPOILERS, obviously):
http://collider.com/westworld-timeline-explained/
It wasn’t until I read it that i understood what that buried church was about. : /
That's a well done timeline.
Austruck
04-26-18, 01:25 PM
Fun article recapping S2E1:
https://www.tor.com/2018/04/23/westworld-season-2-episode-1-journey-into-night/?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_term=tordotcom-tordotcomnewsletter&utm_content=na-readblog-blogpost&utm_campaign=tor
Austruck
04-26-18, 01:28 PM
Also, I absolutely LOVE their opening credits... and was tickled pink to see they'd modified them a bit for this season. Outlander also does this (modifies opening credits to suit the season), and it makes already great credits even more amazing!
We open with Arnold and Dolores, which is 30 odd years ago, he had a dream about being left behind in the water.
My brother and I think both think this might actually be a head fake and it's happening in the present/future/whatever.
Also, fun theory (spoilered just in case):
Wouldn't bet on it, but I think it'd be interesting if Charlotte Hale discovers Bernard is a host and tries to hide the IP in his head, then dumps him on the beach knowing he'd be accepted as a human and allowed out of the park.
Also, I'll have to find the post, but I was definitely floating the "stealing people's DNA" thing last year, at least with friends and family. Wasn't a prediction, just seemed like a fertile thing for the story down the line, especially given how likely we figured it was to expand into the larger world at some point.
TheUsualSuspect
04-26-18, 02:15 PM
My brother and I think both think this might actually be a head fake and it's happening in the present/future/whatever.
Also, fun theory (spoilered just in case):
Wouldn't bet on it, but I think it'd be interesting if Charlotte Hale discovers Bernard is a host and tries to hide the IP in his head, then dumps him on the beach knowing he'd be accepted as a human and allowed out of the park.
Also, I'll have to find the post, but I was definitely floating the "stealing people's DNA" thing last year, at least with friends and family. Wasn't a prediction, just seemed like a fertile thing for the story down the line, especially given how likely we figured it was to expand into the larger world at some point.
Interesting take on the opening. Their clothing tells me otherwise, but maybe the prophetic conversation they had is actually a memory he had instead.
As for the Charlotte thing...I find it interesting that she mentioned twice about DNA in the hidden lair. The door handle scans your DNA, the drones can sense your DNA. She says it twice to Bernard. Soooo....does she know something?
TheUsualSuspect
04-27-18, 08:38 AM
Even when I try to avoid the internet, I've got dumb employees telling me spoilers for this show.
Damn You All To Hell !!!!!!
there must be a junket in sydney because marsden was interviewed last night. What a lovely guy. He seems very natural infront of a panel.
That is all. I'm needing a rewatch today before episode 2.
Nice to see some world building going on outiside the park. Finally, some development on young William that doesn’t feel like a bore.
I hope there’s more from Giancarlo. I love that guy.
TheUsualSuspect
04-30-18, 08:46 AM
Nice to see some world building going on outiside the park. Finally, some development on young William that doesn’t feel like a bore.
I hope there’s more from Giancarlo. I love that guy.
Doubt it.
Heard there are a lot of cameos this season.
I really liked this episode actually. Interesting development outside park, felt Lost-ish to me with the 'flashbacks'.
I think we all knew everyone was a host in that scene, right?
I keep looking for Simpson's Harris mannerisms. Caught a few last night.
Digital GoT? Why change what works, I guess.
Aside from that very minor detail, I'm digging this season so far. I am excited to see how the relationship of Ed Harris's Man in Black and Dolores will play out. I loved that heartbreak seemed to be a flashpoint for this character's origin with Simpson's William last season, but I wanted to see age bring with it perspective and that never happened in S1. I wonder if he will be able to redeem himself at some point along this season. I mean now that there are technically no rules, and hosts are off rail, perhaps something can come of that. After all, was it not William's realization that Dolores was only programmed to show affection that started him down this path to begin with? Her strings have been cut now and, unlike younger William's experience watching Dolores play the same role that he fell in love with against Teddy (having been reset), she can remember everything now apparently.
Tbh, I’m still not onboard with Liam McPoyle as Ed Harris.
Oh, and all this time Lawrence was saying “El Lazo”, not “Eliza”. Oops.
dadgumblah
05-02-18, 08:07 PM
I'm enjoying Season 2 so far, but I'm, ahem, "at sea" about the timelines, especially as regards Bernard. And did we not hear the voice of, or imitated voice of Anthony Hopkins as Ford in the background calling Bernard "Arnold." I don't remember us specifically being told in S1 that Arnold and Bernard are one and the same. I think it was hinted at. I only remember for a fact that Ford told Bernard that he (Bernard) was a host, which is now fact on the show. But there was the picture of Ford, Arnold, and Bernard. Did the person that was supposedly Arnold disappear from the picture and only Ford and Bernard were there? It seemed like that. If the real Arnold was actually Bernard, can somebody remind me of when that was shown or told?
We were told in Episode 1 that the package was in Abernathy, Dolores' father, a "retired" host. So, wasn't Hale trying to locate him on the computer map when she and Bernard were inside?
Yeah, like it was stated in the article, it appears that Dolores is completely self-aware and remembers everything. Or does she? She certainly appears to remember the past when young William was talking to her, and when Bernard had a (fatherly?) affection for her and showed her the skyline of the city or when William was meeting with her.
I love Dolores but agree that Maeve is the boss of the hosts. She's not overemotional at all. She really talked her way past Dolores and Teddy really easy, didn't she? Loved that scene.
Still intrigued by The Man in Black and why he wants to "burn the whole place down."
They revealed Bernard was a host copy of Arnold the same episode Ford has Bernard kill Theresa, the Delos executive. It was in episode 7 or 8 of the first season.
Because of the hosts’ programming to ignore anything that might disrupt their “realities” or loops, Bernard saw a different person in the picture Ford showed him but it was always him. Ford eventually removed that to reveal to Bernard his origin and purpose.
Did Ed Harris say he wants to burn it all down? I think he said Ford intended the hosts to do that in their quest for independency and this gave The Man in Black’s quest something of ticking clock. Certainly, Ford doesn’t want him to succeed since he had all the hosts he try to rally to his side commit suicide.
dadgumblah
05-03-18, 04:06 AM
They revealed Bernard was a host copy of Arnold the same episode Ford has Bernard kill Theresa, the Delos executive. It was in episode 7 or 8 of the first season.
Because of the hosts’ programming to ignore anything that might disrupt their “realities” or loops, Bernard saw a different person in the picture Ford showed him but it was always him. Ford eventually removed that to reveal to Bernard his origin and purpose.
Did Ed Harris say he wants to burn it all down? I think he said Ford intended the hosts to do that in their quest for independency and this gave The Man in Black’s quest something of ticking clock. Certainly, Ford doesn’t want him to succeed since he had all the hosts he try to rally to his side commit suicide.
Thanks for the explanation about the picture. That one threw me when Bernard was seeing a different person. And now I remember that Delores killed the real Arnold.
Oh yeah, Harris said those very words...It was in Ep.2...I couldn't find an individual video that has him saying it, but I believe he's saying it to Lawrence (Clifton Collins Jr.). It's in this trailer for Season 2 at the 2 minute mark.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjVqDg32_8s
I like this next video that explains pretty much everything from Ep.2 for a dummy like me. This is why I should really watch each episode twice because, boy do I gloss over some things!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMzvju5Uon0
dadgumblah
05-05-18, 05:27 AM
Okay, nobody is talking much but I thought I'd add a little something to what Saunch was asking about The Man is Black talking about burning Westworld to the ground. Watching it a second time, I wrote down the conversation between the MiB and Lawrence:
Lawrence: "...if my mortal soul gets cast down into some dark place. Always sounded like bullsh**t to me."
MiB: "Yeah, and in the outside world you'd probably be right. Just some fairy tale to convince people to behave. to pay their taxes, and not take a machete to their neighbors. That's why your world exists. They wanted a place hidden from God. A place they could sin in peace. But we were watching them. We were tallying up all their sins. All their choices. Of course, judgement wasn't the point. We had something else in mind entirely. But, I have received my judgment all the same, Lawrence, and I take issue with it. Because up until this point the stakes in this place haven't been real. So I'm gonna fight my way back and appeal the verdict. Then I'm gonna burn this whole f**king thing to the ground."
Anyhoo, that's the conversation. If you haven't already watched it a second time, Saunch, there ya go.
Love the intro with Seven Nation Army. I really enjoy the contemporary music and I'm curious how significant these choices of songs are, if at all.
Some more than others, like “Back to Black” playing for Maeve (“I’ve died a hundred times...”)
Austruck
05-06-18, 11:36 PM
Love the intro with Seven Nation Army. I really enjoy the contemporary music and I'm curious how significant these choices of songs are, if at all.
That's just what I came here to post: LOVED the exotic undercurrent of "Seven Nation Army" in the first scene! Episode 1 was Nirvana's "Heart-Shaped Box." Crazy-good use of music on this show.
I was gonna call it Kipling-World.
https://youtu.be/zjupARl4QX0
“Seven Nation Army.” Imperialism humor is much appreciated.
Jeez, I needed another reason to dislike story douche. That’s a good bit, btw, giving new meaning to Hector’s repeated “vices” line. Oh, and they answered that thing about Trevor’s change of attitude.
Austruck
05-07-18, 11:49 AM
Trevor? Sorry... for some reason I'm not placing who Trevor is (and I even looked up characters on IMDb and couldn't see a Trevor). Help a girl out here! :)
I mean Rebus.
https://image.ibb.co/j42pW7/6_AFA8058_B846_4363_913_F_A17_C39_E4_F3_B5.jpg
Austruck
05-07-18, 11:59 AM
Ahhh, yes! Simon from The Walking Dead! :D :D
I mean Rebus.
https://image.ibb.co/j42pW7/6_AFA8058_B846_4363_913_F_A17_C39_E4_F3_B5.jpg
lol. Negan should pour a bottle of milk at some point next season in honor.
It's because he looks exactly like (and voices) the "Trevor" character in Grand Theft Auto V.
44275
I'm crying right now, Yoda. My ...mind ...is failing me.
Austruck
05-07-18, 09:25 PM
Okay, we're three episodes into the new season. I admit I have this fear that this season will be too much showing us this host horde and that host horde rising up and rebelling, with lots more park guests getting killed (because Abernathy hasn't made it out of the park yet). Frankly, I'm already a little tired of it. They've now shown us that a different park (with the Bengals) is also on the fritz, and we can guess that the Asian park is also going haywire (although we have yet to see it).
But I just don't need TOO much more of this. Not, like, a whole season of it.
I'm simplifying my fear here. I think the issue is a little more subtle. That first season introduced us to a whole new world, and we had to absorb and learn EVERYTHING from the ground up. So many things were revealed to us by the end of season 1! I guess I just am already missing a lot of that "wow!" factor that came with nearly every episode of season 1. I haven't found myself asking the same sorts of fundamental world-building questions this season. Not yet, anyway.
I suppose that's to be expected once the world is more familiar to us. But I kinda miss the sense of awe and wonder (splendor? ha!) I got during every single episode of season 1.
---
Side note: The "Seven Nation Army" music in the background as we were shown our first glimpse of a second park made me wonder if there are indeed seven parks. Assuming hosts rebel in every park, then it would indeed become a seven-nation army. :)
TheUsualSuspect
05-08-18, 04:20 PM
Side note: The "Seven Nation Army" music in the background as we were shown our first glimpse of a second park made me wonder if there are indeed seven parks. Assuming hosts rebel in every park, then it would indeed become a seven-nation army. :)
There's at least six confirmed.
Tonight’s was a rather frustrating episode.
Austruck
05-14-18, 10:18 AM
Tonight’s was a rather frustrating episode.
I'm curious why you think so. I was going to come back to this thread and say that last night's episode made me more hopeful for the rest of the season.
My previous post expressed some frustration, and I think it's because I don't see this season asking as many questions for us as the first season did. Of course, in any sci-fi-type show, that's bound to be true since the first season gets to introduce you to the world and its rules. Once you're familiar with the world, it's harder to continue finding that awe and wonder.
But last night's episode (S2, E4, "The Riddle of the Sphinx") introduced some new plot twists and ideas. I found it refreshing, and a little more like season 1.
Iroquois
05-14-18, 11:42 AM
It's a curious episode because on one hand the entire Peter Mullan thread made for a great and (relatively) self-contained narrative thread (and it intertwined with the Bernard/Elsie thread, which was the second-best thread) but the MIB/Lawrence thread is really starting to feel like wheel-spinning at this point. At least the next episode seems to finally be taking place in Eastworld.
Austruck
05-14-18, 05:13 PM
I see what you're saying, Iro, but I also have a strong sense that the MIB is going to be the common thread throughout this season/show. He's the one who's always had the Big Picture of the game/parks at the core of why he's there and what he's doing. And now I can see more of why he said a few episodes ago that he wants to burn the place to the ground.
Nice twist at the end of the episode with him and his daughter. I want more of those sorts of "aha!" moments.
As for Eastworld... I'm hoping that this section of the story has some depth and isn't just more "Oh, crap! Look! They're rebelling and killing everyone in sight!"
Ehem, it’s Shogun World.
*pushes glasses up with finger*
Austruck
05-14-18, 06:45 PM
Ehem, it’s Shogun World.
*pushes glasses up with finger*
Ha! Apparently Iro and I both missed the sign at the entrance of the park when we came in!
:leo:
gandalf26
05-14-18, 07:24 PM
Can't figure out if I'm watching high art or a jumbled incoherent mess.
Iroquois
05-15-18, 02:49 AM
I see what you're saying, Iro, but I also have a strong sense that the MIB is going to be the common thread throughout this season/show. He's the one who's always had the Big Picture of the game/parks at the core of why he's there and what he's doing. And now I can see more of why he said a few episodes ago that he wants to burn the place to the ground.
Nice twist at the end of the episode with him and his daughter. I want more of those sorts of "aha!" moments.
As for Eastworld... I'm hoping that this section of the story has some depth and isn't just more "Oh, crap! Look! They're rebelling and killing everyone in sight!"
I get that (and obviously the flashbacks with Peter Mullan are pertinent to that) but the whole "run into obstacle and shoot his way out" thing is starting to feel a little played at this point, so I'm glad that the conclusion of this episode hints at a switch-up to this formula.
The Shogun World preview makes me think that their hosts' method of taking control isn't (can't be?) some lawless Wild West massacres so much as the sort of exactingly deliberate executions befitting a more rigidly-structured society (certain shots certainly reminded me of Scorsese's Silence so I do wonder if it was an influence at all).
Ehem, it’s Shogun World.
*pushes glasses up with finger*
Fair enough, I just liked the pun.
Can't figure out if I'm watching high art or a jumbled incoherent mess.
"If you can't tell, what's the difference?"
TheUsualSuspect
05-15-18, 11:29 AM
Really fine acting in this episode, specifically from Peter Mullan. This episode opened with a very LOST like set piece. I felt like I was watching Desmond in the hatch for the opening to season 2. I guess the theory that Delos is implanted in Abernathy is gone now?
Then I get hit with a Bernard bombshell. Anything he is experiencing can be in the past now. I was under the impression that the beach scene was our "present", but that is officially thrown out the window. He says that he is finally operating on his own terms now...but is that true?
It seems we've lost our creepy looking blank hosts. That's a shame, I thought they were going to have a bit more to do. The return of Elsie was expected. Nice to see she's back in the story.
I actually really liked this episode. Extremely well edited.
Then I get hit with a Bernard bombshell. Anything he is experiencing can be in the past now. I was under the impression that the beach scene was our "present", but that is officially thrown out the window.
Totally played out like LOST ;)
If you've not seen the current EP, then please don't read anything past this point! I'm not highlighting in spoiler tags as it seems the conversation has been pretty open so far.
Just to clarify if I'm tracking correctly:
Older William/MIB meets James Delos' synth (for lack of a better word) for the last time, near the end of the episode. On the way out, the tech asks if William wants to destroy the sample, as they have done previously. William says no, that maybe they can learn something by watching the degradation over the next few days. It was established earlier that his degradation plays out over days or weeks, and reinforced by his comment here to watch the effects. In that Delos had already lasted as long as he has, surely he only had a few days left, if that. He was still alive when Elsie and Bernard found him, which suggests it was within only a few days or less since the park-wide revolt took place and since William spoke with him.
Later in the the discovered lab while Bernard is hallucinating and veering in and out of his timelines, Elsie Hughes hears something from behind a locked door. Turns out that this is the room in which James Delos was being studied. As they scan the destroyed room we get a glimpse of a body laying on the floor. It looked to me that this was the same tech that asked William if he wanted to destroy Delos' synth. If that's true, then William must have made that last visit just before going to the party (finale of season 1), when all hell broke loose as that tech was still on shift.
Bernard's flashbacks show him giving orders to the drone hosts to kill the staff in the lab. Did those flashbacks show him or the drones entering the locked room in which Delos is/was being held? It appeared that someone must have entered it and destroyed it, but I do not remember seeing that stage. Did I miss it? I do not remember where Bernard was during the gala at the end of Season 1. Did he return to this lab within 24 hours (or even within just a few hours) after William left Delos to degrade? And did he (Bernard) at around the time when the gala celebration was taking place, kill the lab staff?
To the quote, I'm still following as though Bernard's beach scenes are present. At least I mean after everything else that has been playing out during the show. They come across the body of water with all of the dead hosts during that timeline. Surely that is the aftermath of whatever has transpired from his timeline (will transpire for us, maybe as a finale?).
What threw that out the window?
With the reveal that they've either transferred consciousness or simulated Delos within a clone/synth/host, then I half expect Ford to appear at the end of this season as the Ford that was shot was only his clone/synth. That or he's been dead for some time while his synth has been controlling the programming of all the hosts all along. That would mean that he's hidden the fix to the degradation from William and Delos. Wasn't there a speech from Ford in season 1 talking about evolution and having nowhere else to go? That could be the opened door then for him to find a way to transfer his consciousness into this new life form, as he might see it at least. Kinda would change my viewing of Fords sit with the decommissioned host Bernard first finds him with early in season 1. :D
TheUsualSuspect
05-15-18, 01:57 PM
Totally played out like LOST ;)
If you've not seen the current EP, then please don't read anything past this point! I'm not highlighting in spoiler tags as it seems the conversation has been pretty open so far.
Just to clarify if I'm tracking correctly:
Older William/MIB meets James Delos' synth (for lack of a better word) for the last time, near the end of the episode. On the way out, the tech asks if William wants to destroy the sample, as they have done previously. William says no, that maybe they can learn something by watching the degradation over the next few days. It was established earlier that his degradation plays out over days or weeks, and reinforced by his comment here to watch the effects. In that Delos had already lasted as long as he has, surely he only had a few days left, if that. He was still alive when Elsie and Bernard found him, which suggests it was within only a few days or less since the park-wide revolt took place and since William spoke with him.
Later in the the discovered lab while Bernard is hallucinating and veering in and out of his timelines, Elsie Hughes hears something from behind a locked door. Turns out that this is the room in which James Delos was being studied. As they scan the destroyed room we get a glimpse of a body laying on the floor. It looked to me that this was the same tech that asked William if he wanted to destroy Delos' synth. If that's true, then William must have made that last visit just before going to the party (finale of season 1), when all hell broke loose as that tech was still on shift.
Bernard's flashbacks show him giving orders to the drone hosts to kill the staff in the lab. Did those flashbacks show him or the drones entering the locked room in which Delos is/was being held? It appeared that someone must have entered it and destroyed it, but I do not remember seeing that stage. Did I miss it? I do not remember where Bernard was during the gala at the end of Season 1. Did he return to this lab within 24 hours (or even within just a few hours) after William left Delos to degrade? And did he (Bernard) at around the time when the gala celebration was taking place, kill the lab staff?
To the quote, I'm still following as though Bernard's beach scenes are present. At least I mean after everything else that has been playing out during the show. They come across the body of water with all of the dead hosts during that timeline. Surely that is the aftermath of whatever has transpired from his timeline (will transpire for us, maybe as a finale?).
What threw that out the window?
With the reveal that they've either transferred consciousness or simulated Delos within a clone/synth/host, then I half expect Ford to appear at the end of this season as the Ford that was shot was only his clone/synth. That or he's been dead for some time while his synth has been controlling the programming of all the hosts all along. That would mean that he's hidden the fix to the degradation from William and Delos. Wasn't there a speech from Ford in season 1 talking about evolution and having nowhere else to go? That could be the opened door then for him to find a way to transfer his consciousness into this new life form, as he might see it at least. Kinda would change my viewing of Fords sit with the decommissioned host Bernard first finds him with early in season 1. :D
Host Delos was trashing the room. The dead tech I believe was inside the room too, no? So at some point it looks like the tech went in the room and was killed by Delos, maybe when he started cutting his own face?
I'm just thinking that maybe the beach timeline is also in the past and we haven't actually seen the present yet.
I should probably just watch the episode again but is Bernard, um, out of time when he’s with Elsie? Like he’s experiencing a prolonged flashback?
Austruck
05-15-18, 02:36 PM
A few random thoughts in response:
-- Didn't Strand and Stubbs, et al., find Bernard on the beach initially in episode 1? Meaning that IS our present, a few weeks after the gala.
-- I'm unsure when William/MIB went in to see Delos-synth that last time, but I think it had to be before the gala. In fact, part of me thinks that his realizing the Delos-synth wasn't going to ever work might have been what led him on his current sprees to bring the place down. So it had to have happened early enough to account for all of that.
-- I'm fascinated by what's going to play out between William and his daughter now that they've reunited. Did he know she was there? And is she there to burn the place down too, or for some other reason? She said to Stubbs that she doesn't want to escape the park at all. Sounds a lot like her dad...
-- The easiest way for me to tell which Bernard we're looking at has been to look at his clothing/lapels. The earlier incarnation is wearing a sort of sweater/woolen jacket. The present-day Bernard is wearing more of a traditional suit jacket, though tattered.
I should probably just watch the episode again but is Bernard, um, out of time when he’s with Elsie? Like he’s experiencing a prolonged flashback?
That scene was difficult. Both?
When Bernard commented something like, "I'm not here with you now" I did take that to mean that he was having a flash back and was not there with her, in time. But then he did physically interact with her explaining the drone hosts and defending against the crazed Delos synth. So, honestly? I have no idea ;)
TheUsualSuspect
05-15-18, 05:19 PM
That scene was difficult. Both?
When Bernard commented something like, "I'm not here with you now" I did take that to mean that he was having a flash back and was not there with her, in time. But then he did physically interact with her explaining the drone hosts and defending against the crazed Delos synth. So, honestly? I have no idea ;)
The Bernard that wakes up on the beach isn't the same timeline Bernard that is with Elsie, right? Which would indicate that it is a "flashback memory". But for the life of me, I can't remember what current Bernard is doing. Unless that WAS current Bernard and it would mean it was all a flashback.
That was my initial thought, that the beginning on the beach is a flashback, but we think it is the present. Kind of similar to the William timeline in season one.
"Is this now? If you're looking forward, you're looking in the wrong direction".
We need someone to breakdown these timelines.
The Bernard that wakes up on the beach isn't the same timeline Bernard that is with Elsie, right? Which would indicate that it is a "flashback memory". But for the life of me, I can't remember what current Bernard is doing. Unless that WAS current Bernard and it would mean it was all a flashback.
That was my initial thought, that the beginning on the beach is a flashback, but we think it is the present. Kind of similar to the William timeline in season one.
"Is this now? If you're looking forward, you're looking in the wrong direction".
We need someone to breakdown these timelines.
Could be.
When Bernard was found on the beach, I assumed that was after all of these events played out. They did find the mass of hosts' bodies in the water too, which I took to be either the remains of a battle, or the hosts instinctive mass suicide of sorts trying to get to "glory"---events that we have not yet witnessed.
It could be like William's timeline though. If so, then there must have been a similar mass error/revolt in the past by the hosts throughout the different worlds, as that seems to be what was playing out in Bernard's beach scenes. Totally possible, but as it is I'd give that 20/80?
I need to watch the first few EPs again now. UGH.
Austruck
05-15-18, 06:14 PM
Wasn't Bernard washed up on the beach when Strand, et al., found him in the first episode? They then say that it's been two weeks since the gala fiasco... so I keep assuming that THAT is as close to present-day as we have right now.
So then, any time we've seen Bernard with Strand or Stubbs and gang, that's been post-gala clean-up. In that first episode, they did go back to JUST after the gala to start telling us how Bernard got stranded/washed up on the beach (just post-gala when he's fleeing with Charlotte Hale). But I don't think they've completed that part of the story yet (post-gala and up till the two weeks' point where Strand and Stubbs find him).
When Bernard's with Hale, she says there won't be rescue troops till Abernathy and the data get delivered outside the park. SOOO... are Strand, et al., the rescue troops in present time then? Strand certainly sounds as if he's been called to the park from elsewhere (and isn't happy about it).
As for when the Maeve/Lee Sizemore stuff is happening, that all seems fairly soon post-gala and seems to be unfolding in a more linear fashion.
My two cents on the timeline stuff, anyway.
TheUsualSuspect
05-16-18, 05:28 PM
Wasn't Bernard washed up on the beach when Strand, et al., found him in the first episode? They then say that it's been two weeks since the gala fiasco... so I keep assuming that THAT is as close to present-day as we have right now.
So then, any time we've seen Bernard with Strand or Stubbs and gang, that's been post-gala clean-up. In that first episode, they did go back to JUST after the gala to start telling us how Bernard got stranded/washed up on the beach (just post-gala when he's fleeing with Charlotte Hale). But I don't think they've completed that part of the story yet (post-gala and up till the two weeks' point where Strand and Stubbs find him).
When Bernard's with Hale, she says there won't be rescue troops till Abernathy and the data get delivered outside the park. SOOO... are Strand, et al., the rescue troops in present time then? Strand certainly sounds as if he's been called to the park from elsewhere (and isn't happy about it).
As for when the Maeve/Lee Sizemore stuff is happening, that all seems fairly soon post-gala and seems to be unfolding in a more linear fashion.
My two cents on the timeline stuff, anyway.
Yeah, that is clear to me too. I just can't remember what "present" Bernard is doing. Was the last that we saw of him when he saw the tiger?
We're seeing flashbacks within flashbacks;pertaining to the red ball that is presumably another Synth Host.
TheUsualSuspect
05-17-18, 02:18 PM
Can someone explain to me the Bernard timeline in the secret lab?
Bernard makes drones commit suicide and kill scientists
Bernard with Hale
Bernard with Elsie
Austruck
05-18-18, 09:02 PM
Bernard with Hale starts just post-gala and ends... well, I don't know if we've seen yet how they get separated. But obviously they do because when he's washed up on the beach (which is 2 weeks post-gala), he's not with her any longer.
Haven't figured out when the Elsie bits are happening. I need a rewatch... which I'm starting right now, as a matter of fact. I'll try to pay attention to clues on that timeline.
Austruck
05-18-18, 10:03 PM
Side note: I'm not any closer to figuring out when the Elsie stuff happens (I wasn't paying enough attention), but I do see that the dead technician who's in with Delos-synth couldn't have been dead for very long because there's no decomposition or anything. Looks like he just died. So, although we don't really know how long Delos-synth has been alone after MIB/William leaves him for the last time, we do know that Bernard and Elsie come upon this lab not long after Delos-synth has gone off his rocker and killed the tech guy.
Austruck
05-18-18, 10:05 PM
By the way, I'm tickled pink that we have some plot-twisty-type stuff to discuss about this season. Feels a little more like season 1 again.
One dumb question: WHY do they destroy the various Delos-synths by torching the entire room he's in? Who wants to keep cleaning up all that ash and then recreating the whole room all the time? Seems like unnecessary overkill just for the sake of a dramatic effect.
dadgumblah
05-19-18, 11:16 PM
By the way, I'm tickled pink that we have some plot-twisty-type stuff to discuss about this season. Feels a little more like season 1 again.
One dumb question: WHY do they destroy the various Delos-synths by torching the entire room he's in? Who wants to keep cleaning up all that ash and then recreating the whole room all the time? Seems like unnecessary overkill just for the sake of a dramatic effect.
You just asked a question I was going to. The torching of the room per William's orders which destroys everything, as William was seemingly tired of going through the same disappointment time-and-again. Yet we see that William has a conversation with Delos and says he's tired of trying to bring Delos back and failing to do so. So he says it would best to observe the degradation of Delos and learn from it. So, I was thinking that the degradation took a long time and it's how Bernard and Elsie found him, with his face all cut up. But now, I'm not so sure which takes place first---his torching or how Bernard and Elsie find him? And is it like Austruck says---did they continually torch the room and recreate it or just the once?
“This company is hemorrhaging money.”
*lights another match*
Austruck
05-20-18, 01:20 AM
You just asked a question I was going to. The torching of the room per William's orders which destroys everything, as William was seemingly tired of going through the same disappointment time-and-again. Yet we see that William has a conversation with Delos and says he's tired of trying to bring Delos back and failing to do so. So he says it would best to observe the degradation of Delos and learn from it. So, I was thinking that the degradation took a long time and it's how Bernard and Elsie found him, with his face all cut up. But now, I'm not so sure which takes place first---his torching or how Bernard and Elsie find him? And is it like Austruck says---did they continually torch the room and recreate it or just the once?
The first time we see the room torched is when William is still young. Older William/MIB goes into what looks like an identical room, so they must be rebuilding it every time.
WHICH IS JUST STUPID. At one point they said the Delos-synth was up to Day 35, so if you do the math over 30 years of repeating this process to try to get him to work properly, that means they have to have a TON of the same vases, dishes, sheets, books...EVERYTHING. It's just something that looked cool but really made no sense in terms of what would likely happen if this were real.
dadgumblah
05-20-18, 06:09 AM
Thanks for that, Austruck. After I posted my question, I thought for a minute that the young William might have ordered the room torched, but then I said, "Naahhh!" This show is great, but it definitely has me doubting myself sometimes.
Confession: Shogun World has been my number 1 reason to stick with the season. :/
Confession: Shogun World has been my number 1 reason to stick with the season. :/
Has been? Past tense?
Bit disappointed tonight, myself, either way. Eager to see MIB and Bernard's story lines play out, but quickly fading out with Dolores and Maeve.
Yeah, it’s getting to be that I’m thinking I should wait for the whole season to be up for streaming, maybe binging this will help clear some things up (it seemed to have help others with the first one.)
It’s funny how this season is sort of a reversal of #1, where I found the William/MIB story a drag and Dolores’ quest for sentience more pressing. I like the world building they’ve done with the outside of the park but EWR’s performance as Wyatt is not engaging at all. I was also hoping they’d ditch the whole “three days ride out towards the truth” thing.
As for tonight’s episode... eh.
Austruck
05-21-18, 01:14 PM
I thought the episode had its moments, but wasn't what I was expecting. I do wonder why we didn't see any guests at all in Shogun World, though. (Did we? It seems as if that aspect of the situation was completely overlooked. Will have to rewatch.)
But I admit I'm finding Dolores's rampage a little tedious. And Maeve doesn't seem to be on much of a quest at the moment. She keeps mentioning finding her daughter but that journey's just a big, hot mess of meandering.
Still feels too much like we're wandering around and getting in as much carnage as we can while we're at it... with some interesting timeline switch-ups with Bernard and Dolores along the way.
Armistice + Hanaryo is the best tho.
Edit: oh, and story douche delivered the best line of the season thus far: “S**t, ninjas!”
Austruck
05-21-18, 09:34 PM
Armistice + Hanaryo is the best tho.
Edit: oh, and story douche delivered the best line of the season thus far: “S**t, ninjas!”
Ha! Definitely agree on the best line, especially since he, as the writer, would certainly know there were ninjas there. :D
TheUsualSuspect
05-25-18, 11:17 AM
I liked this episode and the doppel-bots was an interesting addition.
The production value of this show is top-notch, my issue is with Maeve. Is she now just going to be like Johansson from Lucy? That seems to be the direction they are going.
Austruck
05-25-18, 04:50 PM
She does seem rather omniscient with that mind-transfer stuff. I get that she should be able to speak other languages since her upgrade, and even that her commands would be obeyed when heard. But are they going to start telling us she can *think* things and they'll be obeyed? Well, we'll see. It's just a little bit roundabout if her quest is to find her daughter. Surely she's now upgraded and smart enough to have found her by now...
Spoilers...I’m on my phone so can’t do that cover up trick.
Just saw the latest episode. There’s a hive mind...is there a physical embodiment of it? Dolores...even Maeve yet she does not seem aware of it at this time but the timeline has me confused. Anyway food for thought. Only considered maeve because of her awesome new and exciting powers of mind control, webs and levitation.
Arnold. He’s not just a host. Ford made him a successful version of the “human mind transplant” we saw fail in the previous episode didn’t he? My thoughts anyway.....So what side will he be on? In terms of human v hosts.
That’s about it for me, the shows slowly unravelling which I love but honestly I couldn’t really tell you what’s going on lol. Still love it though.
human v hosts
Dawn of Obtusity.
human v hosts
Dawn of Obtusity.
How would you describe what’s happening? Do you think there’s a conflict between the hosts and humans?
Austruck
05-28-18, 06:51 PM
I still don't get how Maeve can control the other hosts with her mind. Does she have built-in Wi-Fi or something? :D :D
Austruck
05-28-18, 06:54 PM
I mean, MAYBE I'd buy Bluetooth, but honestly... no Wi-Fi is that good around here!
But seriously... I like where the season's finally going, although I wonder if that's the last we'll see of Shogun World. Will we see the two remaining hosts there defend the place at some point? Probably not. I'm going to do a rewatch to try to keep some of the Bernard timeline clear. I liked the small twists between Bernard and Dolores in this episode.
I mean, MAYBE I'd buy Bluetooth, but honestly... no Wi-Fi is that good around here!
But seriously... I like where the season's finally going, although I wonder if that's the last we'll see of Shogun World. Will we see the two remaining hosts there defend the place at some point? Probably not. I'm going to do a rewatch to try to keep some of the Bernard timeline clear. I liked the small twists between Bernard and Dolores in this episode.
Lol! Its so far in the future, wifi or Bluetooth seems reasonable to me. Well in the context of their world, which has fully functioning and thinking AI and self playing pianos. I mean can you imagine the technology needed for self playing pianos! haha.
Austruck
05-31-18, 01:03 AM
Lol! Its so far in the future, wifi or Bluetooth seems reasonable to me. Well in the context of their world, which has fully functioning and thinking AI and self playing pianos. I mean can you imagine the technology needed for self playing pianos! haha.
Player pianos? What WILL they think of next?
Player Pianos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_piano)
Lol! Its so far in the future, wifi or Bluetooth seems reasonable to me. Well in the context of their world, which has fully functioning and thinking AI and self playing pianos. I mean can you imagine the technology needed for self playing pianos! haha.
Player pianos? What WILL they think of next?
Player Pianos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_piano)
Lol. Unbelievable!
Seriously. What follows is a winding rambly rant of I wonders and predictions.
Could she have access to the "hive" server referenced in the last EP? Just she's unaware and only slowly discovering she has back-door links to all the other hosts throughout the different worlds? Could that explain why she doesn't have need to verbalize her commands for others to act on them? None of the other hosts have the heightened awareness of their existences to even consider it? That it's being presented to us as some spiritual manifestation to hide the tech side of it?
Could it be that Dolores and Maeve are being setup similar to Brother Justin Crowe v Ben Hawkins in another HBO series, Carnivàle??? Dolores, like Brother Justin, believes she is doing some misguided sense of good, while Maeve develops unnatural gifts to complete her selfless quest to find her daughter, preparing her for a final confrontation?!?!?! Could our new, colder, Teddy shoot the daughter to make a point to change her mind (from whatever view Maeve may have that differs from Dolores---maybe like that she shouldn't feel emotion towards a "programmed" host daughter, that they are all just machines "here let me prove it" *rips daughter's red ball thingy out of her skull* "see?!"), sending Maeve over the edge killing the entire cast with a single thought!??!?!!?!?!?!?
=O
Great, now I just want to watch Carnivale again.
Great, now I just want to watch Carnivale again.
doooon't do it!!!! I still wake up in cold sweats from the lack of closure!!!
dadgumblah
05-31-18, 11:43 PM
doooon't do it!!!! I still wake up in cold sweats from the lack of closure!!!
You and me both. And the creator of the show promised that it would continue in some form of entertainment, whether it be the show on another network or in a comic! But, nooooo! Nothing! And Jonesy is still shot and we don't know if he made it or not and Ben and Sofie never met in that desert-like dreamscape apocalyptic place that...no, I can't go on. :( Please keep talking Westworld!
So that Deadwood movie huh?
dadgumblah
06-01-18, 12:08 AM
HBO and their empty promises :mad:
Should’a given McShane or Olyphant a cameo in this.
At least a Ray Stevenson/Kevin McKidd walk-on in Roman World?
Austruck
06-03-18, 04:15 PM
OH MY GOSH. Carnivale! If they had only cut the last scene out of that final episode, it MIGHT have felt a little more like closure. Kinda.
Now I have to go rewatch the whole two seasons! Just because I'm a masochist about this one. At least Deadwood is a really fun, great ride up until that waffly ending that didn't feel enough like an ending... :D
I think.....
I think I have found home here, my brothers and sisters.
Lost it at “happy trails, mother******.”
Oh, and I was kind of right about Maeve, wasn’t I?
UGH!!
Some REALLY great moments in this EP! But really piss-poor character choices being made to further a plot!! WHY?!? When writing has been so great, it really irks me to see character flaws that were obviously created to justify an illogical event later in a story. Especially in throw-away characters that only exist as a necessary medium for their pending "mistake."
....
lol!?
If the next episode is really a full hour of Zach McClarnon going full Terminator across the park and nothing else then I might be willing to give the season a pass.
Ah honestly I am so confused by the latest episode. Wasn’t able to follow it. I have an exam next week so maybe I’m just not giving it full brain power.
Spoilers...so Ford is the cradle and he is very much alive in it? The backups have been destroyed which means less control...everything else don’t really follow.
Also I have a question. You know in the movie the prestige...how Jackman was essentially copying himself and deleting/killing the self that had been copied ie the original. Is that what humans Are wanting? How can they be assured that they would actually be that self?...in the copied self. Is more clone rather than transfer unless it is somewhat of a transfer.....
TheUsualSuspect
06-04-18, 08:52 AM
Ah honestly I am so confused by the latest episode. Wasn’t able to follow it. I have an exam next week so maybe I’m just not giving it full brain power.
Spoilers...so Ford is the cradle and he is very much alive in it? The backups have been destroyed which means less control...everything else don’t really follow.
The way I took it was that Ford had Bernard copy himself into the ball (lack of a better word there) and implanted into the cradle as a way of cheating death. His consciousnesses was alive. Then when Bernard went in, Ford hitched a ride out. Ford was in there blocking the hacking and since he left, they were able to get through.
He mentions how it's not about making the hosts more human, it's about making the humans like the hosts....
TheUsualSuspect
06-04-18, 08:54 AM
Also I have a question. You know in the movie the prestige...how Jackman was essentially copying himself and deleting/killing the self that had been copied ie the original. Is that what humans Are wanting? How can they be assured that they would actually be that self?...in the copied self. Is more clone rather than transfer unless it is somewhat of a transfer.....
Wrap that in spoilers, hahaha.
When facing death, people take chances to live forever. They like the idea that they can and will try it, no doubt.
Good points suspect...makes sense thank you for clarifying. Sorry should have done the spoiler thing I use my phone...if that is even an excuse.
gandalf26
06-04-18, 11:32 AM
An episode where far too many characters seemed to be in mortal danger but just managed to avoid it. Was getting tiring.
An episode where far too many characters seemed to be in mortal danger but just managed to avoid it. Was getting tiring.
I was ALMOST going to @you. I felt like I kinda needed reassurance in my feelings last night ;) Er. I mean regarding Westworld, of course.
Austruck
06-04-18, 10:14 PM
I'm going to have to watch this episode a few times to keep things straight. I missed some of the finer points (thanks for clarifying some, TUS)...because I was too busy trying to manage the timelines in my head. Bernard is just timeline-hopping so much in this season that I can never trust myself to know "when" he is.
And I really wish last week's preview for this episode hadn't included that reveal of them unzipping all the bags of Bernards. That shock-moment completely lost its appeal because they'd shown it to me last week. I might have to start turning off the show before they play the previews for the next episode.
Also, don't any of the hosts around the MIB have real bullets? The man seems invincible.
Oh I've stopped ALL previews of next week's show since the BSG reboot. Especially HBO shows ugh. Too many hints.
TheUsualSuspect
06-05-18, 08:58 AM
Yeah, I watch ZERO previews. So Shogun World was a nice atmospheric surprise since I didn't see the preview on how it looked.
dadgumblah
06-07-18, 02:05 AM
I'm going to have to watch this episode a few times to keep things straight. I missed some of the finer points (thanks for clarifying some, TUS)...because I was too busy trying to manage the timelines in my head. Bernard is just timeline-hopping so much in this season that I can never trust myself to know "when" he is.
And I really wish last week's preview for this episode hadn't included that reveal of them unzipping all the bags of Bernards. That shock-moment completely lost its appeal because they'd shown it to me last week. I might have to start turning off the show before they play the previews for the next episode.
Also, don't any of the hosts around the MIB have real bullets? The man seems invincible.
I'm completely with you on the Bernard timeline(s). I simply cannot keep up. And I'm so involved trying to figure out what happened on the episode that I won't stop the recording I'm watching and invariably I get a spoiler in the previews, like the bags you mentioned, Austruck.
I remember complaints about this during AHS. I'm not sure why networks feel the need to do this. It really alienates an audience
I remember that back in season one I thought that William = Man in Black would be too easy and stupid a twist and was trying to use the “next week” previews as a way of confirming that is was a false flag.
Oops.
First episode I was fully onboard with this season. Great showcase for McClarnon.
Austruck
06-11-18, 12:07 AM
First episode I was fully onboard with this season. Great showcase for McClarnon.
This was a good episode. I felt like I learned a lot and yet they were telling a compelling story at the same time. It helped make sense about a lot of little things that we've seen in past episodes/seasons.
gandalf26
06-11-18, 10:18 AM
Felt it was a much better episode aswell, here is this guy, here is his story in a much more linear non brain tiring fashion.
Next week: back to Bernard and trying to figure out where he is, wtf he is doing and more importantly when this is taking place.
Promo suggests we’re getting a William/Grace episode next week, answering questions about his failings as a father and more world building outside the park. I’m down if it’s as focused and poignant as this last one. The show’s been wasting Ed Harris so far.
gandalf26
06-11-18, 01:28 PM
Promo suggests we’re getting a William/Grace episode next week, answering questions about his failings as a father and more world building outside the park. I’m down if it’s as focused and poignant as this last one. The show’s been wasting Ed Harris so far.
That sounds good, I haven't watched promo yet, and was just assuming we'd be back to Bernard's frustrating time hopping adventure.
I totally agree they are wasting Harris. Probably why I've gone off it a bit. Not sure I can build up enough passion for season 3. Mr Dani is still enjoying it so we shall see.
gandalf26
06-13-18, 05:40 AM
I totally agree they are wasting Harris. Probably why I've gone off it a bit. Not sure I can build up enough passion for season 3. Mr Dani is still enjoying it so we shall see.
I've been lukewarm to WW right through. Feels like a show trying so hard to be great, full of fantastic acting talent but it has been little better than slightly above average for me so far.
I totally agree they are wasting Harris. Probably why I've gone off it a bit. Not sure I can build up enough passion for season 3. Mr Dani is still enjoying it so we shall see.
I've been lukewarm to WW right through. Feels like a show trying so hard to be great, full of fantastic acting talent but it has been little better than slightly above average for me so far.
I so don't want to say it but I'm bored. I can't even muster enough energy for a rewatch yet.
And Gandalf, you saw it here first... I don't mind spoilers. 🐼🐾
This latest episode was stellar. One of the better hours of TV I have seen in a while. They took a character that had just sort of popped up in the background from time to to and turned him into one of my favorites by episode's end.
Also - the score continues to be completely awesome.
Someone pointed that Hopkins was the real heart of season one it got me thinking how no one else had found the right balance between the b-movie sci-fi trappings and prestige tv tone the show wants. Like Lecter, Hopkins shines right there in the middle, really selling each silly line about “host consciousness” and “The Maze™“.
Also - the score continues to be completely awesome.
I guess that’s the one thing we’re in agreement with. Ramin Djawadi’s work is the irrefutable highlight and he’s found a way of making piano covers of famous songs cool like no YouTuber ever has.
I avoid clips at the end of an EP showing what's to come. Even trying to avoid potential spoilers or even heavy-handed clues as to themes or events to come based on how the preview is structured, I've noticed that in the last two EPs they are adding clips that are not from previous shows. Instead, one or two may be from the show the clips are preceding; and I do believe I've seen at least one clip that may be from a future episode. That's starting to bug me now because I want to be completely blind stepping into each EP!
Austruck
06-17-18, 11:12 PM
Season 2, Episode 9, "Vanishing Point."
Another really great, solid episode. We learned a lot of specific plot-related things, and we also learned a lot more about William's thinking... both then and now. Some good, solid twists too.
Looking forward to next week's season finale. I'm curious if we're going to get a definitive answer to the "William" question they hinted at tonight.
Tonight on Will & Grace...
Austruck
06-18-18, 12:23 AM
Tonight on Will & Grace...
You lost me.
??
It’s what the kids call “a pun.”
(I mean, okay, I guess TMiB’s daughter’s real name is Emily. I think. I’m not sure.)
Austruck
06-18-18, 03:49 AM
Yeah, her name is Emily. How is it a pun, though? Honestly, what am I missing here? :D
dadgumblah
06-21-18, 04:55 AM
I enjoyed this episode a lot. What really kept me laser-focused was the beautiful Sela Ward as William's late wife. My gosh, I don't know how old Sela is but she still looks dynamite! Either she's drinking the blood of virgins or she has a "special" portrait stashed away in her house. I mean, she looks almost exactly the same as she did 22-years-ago when Sisters ended. What a woman!
EDIT: Okay, found out she will turn 62 on July 11th. Not that old, yet should be showing signs of aging...hmm, a Westworld host perhaps?
Oh, crap, I don’t remember anything from the last episode.
Well, aside from Hopkins dialing up the creepy factor here:
https://s33.postimg.cc/yt4mga9kv/1235_E604-_D586-4340-9_B5_D-9_F4_A37_E55_EC5.gif
So, uh... Ed Harris was a robot?
dadgumblah
06-21-18, 10:02 PM
Oh, crap, I don’t remember anything from the last episode.
Well, aside from Hopkins dialing up the creepy factor here:
https://s33.postimg.cc/yt4mga9kv/1235_E604-_D586-4340-9_B5_D-9_F4_A37_E55_EC5.gif
So, uh... Ed Harris was a robot?
It seems like they're heading down the Ed Harris/robot road. And the season finale next week. Hmm, cliffhanger time, ya think?
Twist: Bernard is not a robot.
Austruck
06-23-18, 11:44 PM
So if Ed Harris is a robot... then how is he aging? Or did William want to perfect that human/host thing and use Delos as a sort of guinea pig first before trying it on himself? Or did he not perfect it for so many years/decades that now he's old and finally is a host? Unsure how this all plays out, but am at least fascinated that William THINKS he is a host... enough to slice open his own forearm.
Austruck
06-24-18, 11:34 PM
SEASON 2 FINALE: I think I loved it. Hard to tell, since I still feel they unnecessarily garbled Bernard's timeline a little too much. I think they overdid that. I loved the rest, though. :)
That's enough for now. :D
2
Post-credit scene?
Yeah.
Austruck
06-25-18, 12:47 AM
Yeah, I almost missed it. :)
TheUsualSuspect
06-25-18, 09:03 AM
I feel like people aren't as engaged in discussion this season, which is a shame. Enjoying what little discussion there is though.
A few thoughts on finale...SPOILERS!!!!!
So glad that Akecheta got to be with his soul mate at the end. I was really engaged in his story, even if it was basically one episode.
Did not see the Hale twist coming, was glad I was thrown for a loop there. Of course I called it only seconds before it was revealed, but that's the beauty of the show. They write and shoot it to make the viewer be happy that they know things, mere seconds before the reveal.
Stubbs - Still on the fence if he is a host, or simply acknowledges that Dolores is in Hale. It could go either way.
Hopkins is just too good.
Hope our two boys can bring back Maeve and the others.
Post-credit. So I mentioned earlier that even the beach scene with Bernard could be in the past and everyone yelled at me NOOOO.
This is the present right now, the future if you really want to get technical. MIB is dead and he is stuck in Emily's torture. Reliving over and over his desire of a real park, but stuck in the knowledge of being a host. I think what we are seeing from the park really did happen, but he's just reliving it over and over like the Delos experiment.
Austruck
06-25-18, 11:41 AM
When you say the stuff in the park "really did happen," do you mean his shooting Emily? Because then obviously the shot-Emily was a host indeed, and that's just part of the endless MIB-testing the real Emily is doing, yes?
The fact that he was called a "high-value survivor" by the crew was just because Emily's still experimenting with him, yes?
Also, how did Hale/Dolores get past the humanity-sensor on the back of her neck? I guess, the same way the Emily host got past it in last week's episode? They're better incarnations of hosts? Real duplications of real people instead of simply hosts created for narratives for the guests?
TheUsualSuspect
06-25-18, 01:09 PM
When you say the stuff in the park "really did happen," do you mean his shooting Emily? Because then obviously the shot-Emily was a host indeed, and that's just part of the endless MIB-testing the real Emily is doing, yes?
The fact that he was called a "high-value survivor" by the crew was just because Emily's still experimenting with him, yes?
Also, how did Hale/Dolores get past the humanity-sensor on the back of her neck? I guess, the same way the Emily host got past it in last week's episode? They're better incarnations of hosts? Real duplications of real people instead of simply hosts created for narratives for the guests?
I mean everything that the MIB did in the park, in my mind, happened and the host is just reliving it.
The shooting of Emily could be up in the air. Maybe that portion of the story was fabricated? When he left her she never did find him after? Or she is dead and it is a host testing a host situation? How far in the future is this, she looks the same age.
I imagine he's a high-value survivor due to being the one of the men behind the curtain. But it could still be that Emily wants to torture him endlessly for decades.
No idea on the humanity sensor thing. I thought for sure the jig was going to be up or that Stubbs would stop the person just before the alarm went off or something. So I'm lost on that one.
Austruck
06-25-18, 02:17 PM
Here's a good link where the creators explain a few things:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FaXXZQ2dF6Y&feature=youtu.be
Austruck
06-25-18, 02:23 PM
And... a blog post synopsis of the entire episode. This was REALLY helpful:
https://www.hbo.com/westworld/season-2/10-the-passenger/synopsis
Austruck
06-25-18, 08:04 PM
Okay, I'm doing a little rewatch of the finale. Dolores and MIB are riding toward the Valley Beyond and he asks if the hosts know where they're headed. She says to him, "They're not looking for a path to your world. They want a place apart from you, and they're willing to die to get there."
So, now I'm confused. She finds him digging in his arm, and it doesn't look like what a human arm would look like if you were digging around in there. And now she's talking about him like he's human and not another host? Is it because he's copied from a human (and she's not) and she can make that distinction... and it's important to her?
Austruck
06-25-18, 11:10 PM
And during the rewatch, I see Maeve getting shot and "dying" even though she wasn't shot through the eye like Dolores. (And why did THAT shot work but many shots to her chest didn't?) Anyway...
Here's an article interviewing Nolan, in which he says this: "The second season is a little more straightforward, but it is playing out in two distinct timelines — two and a half if you count the post-credits sequence, and complete with flashbacks. It’s not necessarily for everyone but all of these choices were rooted in the protagonists’ understanding of the reality around them, and centering this season on Bernard’s broken mind as he tries to navigate through the debris of memory. Subsequent seasons will be structured in … different ways.”
I guess I would have thought it was more than 2 or 2.5 timelines. This will take a few rewatches to figure everything out. I don't mind the concept -- in fact, I like it -- but I think parts of it were purposely sloppy or muddy so that we wouldn't too easily figure things out.
Full article here: http://ew.com/tv/2018/06/25/westworld-interview-nolan/?xid=email-email-ewtv-2018062521PM-tout6-img&utm_source=ewedit.wordpress.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ew-tv&utm_content=2018062521PM&eminfo=%7b%22EMAIL%22%3a%22CkTE2jqZRikjwCqcoZgIWeTxPYFN7gZ1%22%2c%22BRAND%22%3a%22EW%22%2c%22CONTENT %22%3a%22Newsletter%22%2c%22UID%22%3a%22EW_TEL_2313A184-F62E-4F26-84EB-76CD32D35301%22%2c%22SUBID%22%3a%2253551369%22%2c%22JOBID%22%3a%22801406%22%2c%22NEWSLETTER%22%3a%22 EW_TV%22%2c%22ZIP%22%3a%22%22%2c%22COUNTRY%22%3a%22%22%7d
Finished up the season last night. Overall, I loved it. Definitely a little rocky here and there due to the fragmenting of Bernard's memories, but clearly that was on purpose, and I agree with Austruck that the reasoning was at least partially driven by a conscious effort to make it difficult for viewers to decode the twists as the season went along.
I am also a bit perplexed as to how Hale was able to get past the scanner - hopefully info emerges that clears that up.
End credit scene must be some time in the future, I presume?
EDIT - Just read Austruck's link, which confirms my last question in the affirmative.
I am also a bit perplexed as to how Hale was able to get past the scanner - hopefully info emerges that clears that up.
It was Hemsworth III. He vouches for her without scanning even though he knows what she is (and is probably a host himself).
End credit scene must be some time in the future, I presume?
Yeah, very far in the future, I'd say.
It was Hemsworth III. He vouches for her without scanning even though he knows what she is (and is probably a host himself).
He is a host.
http://collider.com/westworld-stubbs-host-theory/
Thanks. It's not a great sign that the showrunners feel they pretty much have to confirm or clarify multiple things right after the season. This one was pretty obvious without being stated (if anything, I think he basically has three lines that make it obvious when one would've been good).
I'm not a huge fan of ambiguity in endings, but I'm not sure this is much better. But then, this is the same team that decided it wasn't enough to have Clementine looking like a corpse and literally riding a pale horse as she brought death to everyone, they needed to have one of the characters make the reference explicit, just in case we missed it.
I really think they learned some of the wrong lessons here. People complained about needless complexity and obfuscation and confusion, so they just sorta did the same stuff but decided to clear things up after, rather than maybe construct the narrative differently in the first place.
Don't get me wrong, I liked a lot about this season, and I like the broad strokes of their story and I'm convinced it's gonna go in some really interesting places, but I think this show is really struggling with how to surprise us in a ways that aren't convoluted.
It was Hemsworth III. He vouches for her without scanning even though he knows what she is (and is probably a host himself).
I could have sworn I saw the scanner up against her neck before Stubbs came over and intervened, but I will have to watch again.
Yep, you did. I wondered about that at first but given how the rest of the scene played out I think the idea is that they just starred the scan when he intervened. They show it happen a few times and I think there's a little bar that fills up, and it takes a second or two.
It wasn't staged that well. I'm actually surprised at how often during this season I thought the on-paper version of what happens sounds fine, but the execution makes it seem confusing or implausible when it doesn't have to (like Abernathy getting kidnapped away from Dolores).
Agreed - This stumbled a few times, but it also did a ton right and some great highs.
Nolan always does the big picture stuff well.
By the way, if you really dug the Maeve reveal where she can see everything and anyone can talk to her through other hosts, you should give Person of Interest a try. That's another Jonathan Nolan show, and that's basically the premise. :laugh: And like Westworld is starting to do, it's really good at taking a cool starting concept and exploring the implications out in the larger world. That alone has me perfectly confident that the executive summary arcs this show is going to go through will be cool and interesting, even if the short-term stuff is a little messy.
Austruck
06-26-18, 09:39 PM
Here's an article that is NOT happy with the finale... or even with the whole show this season. I'm not convinced. I still essentially loved this season and am confident that a few rewatches (now that I know there are only really two timelines) will clear things up.
http://ew.com/tv/2018/06/26/westworld-season-2-finale-essay/?xid=email-email-ewtv-2018062620PM-tout2&utm_source=ewedit.wordpress.com&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ew-tv&utm_content=2018062620PM&eminfo=%7b%22EMAIL%22%3a%22CkTE2jqZRikjwCqcoZgIWeTxPYFN7gZ1%22%2c%22BRAND%22%3a%22EW%22%2c%22CONTENT %22%3a%22Newsletter%22%2c%22UID%22%3a%22EW_TEL_2313A184-F62E-4F26-84EB-76CD32D35301%22%2c%22SUBID%22%3a%2253551369%22%2c%22JOBID%22%3a%22802353%22%2c%22NEWSLETTER%22%3a%22 EW_TV%22%2c%22ZIP%22%3a%22%22%2c%22COUNTRY%22%3a%22%22%7d
I do agree with the article on a few points, though: First, they declare the world is HUGE whenever it's important, but people seem able to find each other quickly when they need to. Second, Ford (and Bernard) seem to narrate too much of the action for us, explaining why something is happening in a way that is typically seen as lazy writing. Unsure if this sort of show just inherently needs a little of that, though.
Watched the season finale today. As a whole I didn't like the season 2 as much as season 1. Also I'm not a fan of messing with the timelines just to obfuscate the story (i.e. to make it look like you're telling something more complex - complexity in itself isn't a virtue). There were great scenes and few really good episodes but overall I was a bit disappointed.
TheUsualSuspect
06-27-18, 05:38 PM
Watched the season finale today. As a whole I didn't like the season 2 as much as season 1. Also I'm not a fan of messing with the timelines just to obfuscate the story (i.e. to make it look like you're telling something more complex - complexity in itself isn't a virtue). There were great scenes and few really good episodes but overall I was a bit disappointed.
Sure, the season felt overly complex for the sake of it, but it does kind of fit into the story with Bernard trying to navigate his own erased memories. Season 1 we followed Dolores, I felt like we followed Bernie this season.
Austruck
06-28-18, 10:58 PM
Yep, you did. I wondered about that at first but given how the rest of the scene played out I think the idea is that they just starred the scan when he intervened. They show it happen a few times and I think there's a little bar that fills up, and it takes a second or two.
It wasn't staged that well. I'm actually surprised at how often during this season I thought the on-paper version of what happens sounds fine, but the execution makes it seem confusing or implausible when it doesn't have to (like Abernathy getting kidnapped away from Dolores).
I just rewatched this scene. It's definitely poorly staged. The scanner is on her neck and starts to run... then the next thing we see her do is walk away from that guy scanning her, toward Stubbs. It's unrealistic to think that, if she'd started walking away in the middle of such a scan, someone wouldn't have said something. Like, "Hey! Where do you think you're going?"
Poorly done.
DrJacoby
10-05-18, 08:38 PM
S2E2, something about the pacing at the moment feels off. S1 was quite consistently fluid in the way it cut scenes and the way it advaced with the bread crumbs but at the moment it doesn't feel like it has that.
Still it'll be interesting to see what happens with this 'valley beyond' that was referenced and also briefly seen (or alluded to) in the flashback.
DrJacoby
10-05-18, 08:38 PM
Also, I refuse to look at any of this thread.
DrJacoby
10-06-18, 03:33 AM
S2E4 - The thing with the man with the black hat's father-in-law was an unexpected and nice aspect to the plot development - then to add to that, the bit before the credits :eek:
Seems he's been playing a level up from Ford (with the family members) and to an extremely cruel means, damn!
DrJacoby
10-06-18, 06:56 AM
S2E5, this episode kind of felt like a parody of the show, I hope the pace picks up again because the story feels (at the moment) like it isn't going anywhere right now (outside of the Black-hat guy storyline) :indifferent:
DrJacoby
10-07-18, 12:00 AM
Ep6, things are starting to get more interesting. That opening bit with Dolores and Bernard has me once again piecing together things, along with the bit with 'blackhatguy's daughter (who appeared recently without me realizing she was his daughter) and this virtual host-world is intriguing.
I'm going straight onto Ep7
DrJacoby
10-07-18, 01:07 AM
Ep7 was great. Not much to add but several things connect and increase mystery again. Also, I have a hunch that the whole show so far is more or less a training simulation for Bernard, so that the AI will understand the consequence of their actions, the moral and philosophical implications of what their natural reaction to be when becoming self-aware would mean for them. Dolores is on an ego trip to hell, I think somewhere in his programming Bernard knows this and wants to prevent this.
I think there is a particular reactionary stance that places Dolores, Bernard and Maeve as different types of reasoning from the AI to realizing that they are AI.
I also tend to think that at the end of all of this, the AI likely had less original decisions than they believed they had but that's been a lingering thought since last season.
DrJacoby
10-07-18, 03:14 AM
Ep8 was awesome, practically a movie in itself. Akecheta's backstory is quite surprising (given his numerous brief appearances in the show so far)
DrJacoby
10-07-18, 06:52 AM
Just finished season two and now I'm just.....mentally drained. It's gonna be interesting reading about it over the new few weeks. Despite Season Two having a few episodes that where quite mediocre, I've been overly really impressed by the show, damn! :D
Austruck
10-07-18, 09:49 PM
Ep8 was awesome, practically a movie in itself. Akecheta's backstory is quite surprising (given his numerous brief appearances in the show so far)
I too fully enjoyed this particular episode. I didn't realize going into it that it would be a sort of self-contained story, but I got so lost in the narrative that I completely missed the fact that it doesn't really advance the larger "plot" of Dolores and the Man in Black and Bernard and all the others. It was so fluidly done that I didn't mind one bit that we'd put all those mysteries on hold. Very nicely played.
Zahn McClarnon, the actor who plays Akecheta, is really good in general. He was a highlight of the overall great second season Fargo. Ep. 8 of Westworld was pretty much the reason to watch S2 for me.
DrJacoby
05-14-19, 04:51 AM
I too fully enjoyed this particular episode. I didn't realize going into it that it would be a sort of self-contained story, but I got so lost in the narrative that I completely missed the fact that it doesn't really advance the larger "plot" of Dolores and the Man in Black and Bernard and all the others. It was so fluidly done that I didn't mind one bit that we'd put all those mysteries on hold. Very nicely played.
Woah, it's been 8 months since I've been here or watched the show but I fully agree with you! :)
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.