View Full Version : What the hell is happening to men??????
In less than one week two men have stabbed their families to death.
The first father killed himself, 2 children, and severely wounded his wife and 11mth old baby.
The second, after sexually assaulting his estranged wife, He killed his 2 children, his Father in-law, also stabbed himself, he died of stab and gun shot wounds, the police shot him as he wouldn't stop stabbing his 10mth old baby when they cautioned him.
The Best man at my 1st marriage, also killed his 2 children and himself a few years ago.
What happened to this man that was a special person at my marriage! What went wrong?
WHAT IS GOING WRONG WITH MEN, that they do this terrible thing to the ones they love and to themselves. :(
LordSlaytan
09-16-03, 02:44 AM
Mothers have killed their babies too. Here in Oregon, we had 3 men wipe out their families within a period of one year. My head hurts.
Mothers have killed their babies too. Here in Oregon, we had 3 men wipe out their families within a period of one year. My head hurts.
Hope you don't think that I am anti men, because I am not, just worried about them.
Yes women do, kill babies, it seems more men kill whole families.
My question really is about why these things happen, what happens to these people who do these things, the guy that I knew personally was a really nice guy, not the sort of person who would kill his children, I had never ever seen him violent when we were young, but something changed now 3 people are dead, he was a sweet guy. :confused:
What can I say, we just love to kill babies and loved ones.
I mean, we all have bad habits, baby killing just happens to be a predominantly male one at this point.
What can I say, we just love to kill babies and loved ones.
I mean, we all have bad habits, baby killing just happens to be a predominantly male one at this point.
I suppose sarcasm is one way to deal with it :)
blibblobblib
09-16-03, 10:18 AM
In less than one week two men have stabbed their families to death.
The first father killed himself, 2 children, and severely wounded his wife and 11mth old baby.
The second, after sexually assaulting his estranged wife, He killed his 2 children, his Father in-law, also stabbed himself, he died of stab and gun shot wounds, the police shot him as he wouldn't stop stabbing his 10mth old baby when they cautioned him.
The Best man at my 1st marriage, also killed his 2 children and himself a few years ago.
What happened to this man that was a special person at my marriage! What went wrong?
WHAT IS GOING WRONG WITH MEN, that they do this terrible thing to the ones they love and to themselves. :(
I have a question....
Is this all happening in the same country? Or all over the world? Coz weve had only one of these incidents in the last year over here in the UK that i no of.
Caitlyn
09-16-03, 03:52 PM
Nebbit, had the guy you know recently changed jobs or was in danger of losing his job? I ask because even though each case tends to be individualized, many times “familicide” occurs because of financial difficulties…the mounting pressure of feeling they are unable to provide for their families make them snap…
And Blib… yes, this happens everywhere… in the US, we hear more about the females who kill their children then we do the males because the media seems to dwell on the females more… I remember when Andrea Yates murdered her five children in Texas a few years ago, she was all the news was talking about… but at the same time, there was a father who brutally murdered his wife, son, daughter, and was chasing a second son across the yard stabbing him and it only made the late news once.
Henry The Kid
09-16-03, 04:02 PM
You mean... some men don't kill their families?
You mean... some men don't kill their families?
come on Hen - Cait's made a totally valid point there. But like the ideas being bandied around on the Columbine thread are addressing, this points to the media fixating on novelties rather than forcing us to address regularities. Well, i've no idea who flips more regularly, men or women, but to focus on one over the other like that is inexcusable.
Henry The Kid
09-16-03, 07:03 PM
come on Hen - Cait's made a totally valid point there. But like the ideas being bandied around on the Columbine thread are addressing, this points to the media fixating on novelties rather than forcing us to address regularities. Well, i've no idea who flips more regularly, men or women, but to focus on one over the other like that is inexcusable.
Well, yea. All of American and the rest of the world's society is pretty ****ed up. The media focusing on only women in murders is only another notch on a long list of things to be worried about. I understood the motivations behind the creation of this thread, I just found the theme to be rather silly. Besides, it's not only the media's fault. If the news didn't sell, than they wouldn't be doing it. It's just as much the fault of the degenerates.
Well, yea. All of American and the rest of the world's society is pretty ****ed up. The media focusing on only women in murders is only another notch on a long list of things to be worried about. I understood the motivations behind the creation of this thread, I just found the theme to be rather silly. Besides, it's not only the media's fault. If the news didn't sell, than they wouldn't be doing it. It's just as much the fault of the degenerates.
sure, but people-structures that accentuate the worst side of us just accentuate our tendancy to act these sides out. The male-family-killing trend does appear to be on the up to me, which is disturbing, and very worth looking into. If you give in to the lethargy of just saying things are bad-so-they're-bad-so-they're-bad you never capitalise on the amazing good that is in you and hanging around "in-potentia" (to get pretentious/semi-latin ;)) in all society. Why do these people do this? It's a damn good question. I think Cait's onto something with the male aspect. I think Nebbit's got damn good reasons for asking the question.
I've got my own little semi/global "answers", but they're too unwieldy to launch into here. I'd just say those people were probably living under a form internal+external expectation that was unreconcilable with their reality, especially when their reality shifted for the worst. They resorted to the most extreme way to make their problems go away.
Henry The Kid
09-16-03, 07:35 PM
sure, but people-structures that accentuate the worst side of us just accentuate our tendancy to act these sides out. The male-family-killing trend does appear to be on the up to me, which is disturbing, and very worth looking into. If you give in to the lethargy of just saying things are bad-so-they're-bad-so-they're-bad you never capitalise on the amazing good that is in you and hanging around "in-potentia" (to get pretentious/semi-latin ;)) in all society. Why do these people do this? It's a damn good question. I think Cait's onto something with the male aspect. I think Nebbit's got damn good reasons for asking the question.
I've got my own little semi/global "answers", but they're too unwieldy to launch into here. I'd just say those people were probably living under a form internal+external expectation that was unreconcilable with their reality, especially when their reality shifted for the worst. They resorted to the most extreme way to make their problems go away.
Well, for pure outside influences, men have the majority of pressure on them at the moment. But I would think it will slowly equal out as women become more vital roles in monetary gain in families as time passes. Women have the same amount of pressure, just in difference areas. I would say men are no more inherently crazy than women, which I'm sure you're not disagreeing with.
As someone who has never lived outside of America, I really don't know much about global trends in the male/female murder ratio. I do think the influences that push people over the line are fascinating stuff, and should be explored as deeply as possible. For the moment, however, I would say that I haven't seen a gigantic increase in male murders of the past few years. I think men have killed more for a pretty long time, which is why I had a problem with the initial point of this thread. Whatever went wrong with men, has already gone wrong. It's not like no one ever killed each other pre1900.
Well, for pure outside influences, men have the majority of pressure on them at the moment. But I would think it will slowly equal out as women become more vital roles in monetary gain in families as time passes. Women have the same amount of pressure, just in difference areas. I would say men are no more inherently crazy than women, which I'm sure you're not disagreeing with.
As someone who has never lived outside of America, I really don't know much about global trends in the male/female murder ratio. I do think the influences that push people over the line are fascinating stuff, and should be explored as deeply as possible. For the moment, however, I would say that I haven't seen a gigantic increase in male murders of the past few years. I think men have killed more for a pretty long time, which is why I had a problem with the initial point of this thread. Whatever went wrong with men, has already gone wrong. It's not like no one ever killed each other pre1900.
i agree with all you've said wise one :yup: ;)
I imagine reporting/documentation and media in general allow us to fully realise the existence of these things. To have this happen to a friend of yours must be all the more horrific tho. Obviously the perception of our societies of being "civilised" and what have you makes these actions even more shocking to some. But i don't believe Nebs is one of those that has their eyes closed to our more bestial sides. These men aren't killing just coz they're men. They appear to be killing coz something in their mentalities and surroundings are triggering it. I'm sure these things have always happened. The question is: what are the causes. (i believe on some levels it's id-suppression and social conformity that leads to these things. Something bursts its banks, but what caused it to be shored up in the first place?)
Henry The Kid
09-16-03, 07:49 PM
The question is: what are the causes. (i believe on some levels it's id-suppression and social conformity that leads to these things. Something bursts its banks, but what caused it to be shored up in the first place?)
Indeed.
Just what drives people over the proveribal edge is a morbid curiosity of mine. It is definitely a field to have large amounts of research put in.
This is where those wobbly-grounded psychologists might come into their own perhaps? Not at analysing what we're like so much, as examining whether these particular people had anything in common. It's the kind of thing they seem to make some interesting social-science studies of from time to time. And again, those that set out on such are road are looking at a lot of collating and variety-placating, but they might glean some gold from the stream.
Were all these people suppressed throughout their life? Did an expectation or given-truth they clung to fold? Did they hold a boiling hatred for their situation? Was there some simplified social logic that left them feeling that this was the only solution, once they'd fallen outside its web?
On the solution side...i'm fairly sure we should be looking to society (and to do so we must look inside ourselves :ironic-shrug-smilie-thing: ). But this is mainly coz i believe there's far more potential for social cooperation than we are currently inacting. I suspect that internal beliefs of sex jurisdictions, or social expectations of individual/familial survival might have played their part in these tradgedies.
I think that murder may be the opposite of sex -- sex creates, murder uncreates. Murder is the sibling that we must suppress as much as we can.
Oh Sex-eh. Don't suppress - redirect. Any murder/violence instinct becomes self-defence, necessary-forcefulness (even sport!). If you want it to. We can't deny what's in us - but we can rechannel it. That's about all our vaunted consciousness is good for. Where and how we dig the trench is another matter. It's those that funnel their hatred or love into destructive blows that that never know they're hitting themselves until it's too late.
There's plenty of flow in those resevoirs of woe, don't you think?
pretention ends :rolleyes:
men have the majority of pressure on them at the moment.
Whatever went wrong with men, has already gone wrong. It's not like no one ever killed each other pre1900.
If as Henry says men have the majority of pressure on them, why kill your family? I do think we all have pressure in todays world not just men. Not sure why you feel men have the bulk of it?
Yes, people have been killing pre 1900, but I am not sure that I should accept murder just because it is a thing that happens.
I was wondering if men need more help, to learn how to cope with life with it downs, that can, and will happen, rather than see the solution as murder suicide. Is it a pride thing??
I think that people who murder for the thrill is a different issue to what I am talking about.
These men are not bad or mad people up until the point they kill there children and themselves. A lot of these men are separated from their families, so is it a case of anger towards their ex, "if I can't have my children then no one will?
Yes I think depression & mental illness, drugs, and alcohol are a contributing factor,many of these men did not receive or seek any help, again is this a pride thing, "I am weak if I can't sort this out myself?"
As far as my friend is concerned he was using drugs and alcohol as a means of coping with problems of marriage breakdown.
I'm not sure henry said that all the pressure was on men Nebs. I think he said what you're saying -that men (all of us really) take life's pressures (and their social aspects) in their own way - we take things on individually. Or at least, maybe it was the social and individual desire to do things alone that drove them to this insantity in these cases. Equally, maybe it was the pressure to bring up the kids alone that society and internal worlds forced on mothers that made them commit familial-murder too?
I'm not sure henry said that all the pressure was on men Nebs. I think he said what you're saying -that men (all of us really) take life's pressures (and their social aspects) in their own way - we take things on individually. Or at least, maybe it was the social and individual desire to do things alone that drove them to this insantity in these cases. Equally, maybe it was the pressure to bring up the kids alone that society and internal worlds forced on mothers that made them commit familial-murder too?
He did say that it is the case at present, but also said it may change in the future.
Yes people do handle pressures in their own way, that I am not disputing. I was wondering if there is some way to help these people not to kill and to seek help, and also not see this as a weekness in themselves????
Henry The Kid
09-16-03, 11:37 PM
He did say that it is the case at present, but also said it may change in the future.
Yes people do handle pressures in their own way, that I am not disputing. I was wondering if there is some way to help these people not to kill and to seek help, and also not see this as a weekness in themselves????
I meant, basically, that men and women have the same amount of stress, but that they were usually from different areas. I implied, also, that men typically were led to believe to just repress any negative emotions. I think the directions from which pressure comes will even out for both sexes and women become more and more vital pieces of the workforce, considering most pressure deals with money.
To help these people see this as not a weakness would be ridding them of societal programming from the day they are born. I'm not saying it is not something we should attempt, but just keep in mind, it has long been dictated that men do not show emotion. As far how to do this, I have no idea. I think, first, we need to research exactly what causes these people to "lose it".
I think the directions from which pressure comes will even out for both sexes and women become more and more vital pieces of the workforce, considering most pressure deals with money.
I think, first, we need to research exactly what causes these people to "lose it".
This may be true, but I am a woman and I have worked and studied from the age of 15yrs, I even worked for 10yrs while my X hsb looked for work. I don't think I am alone as a working woman, I am and have always been a vital piece of the workforce. I know what you are trying to say, but I don't think that men's stress is worse because they work.
It would be nice if someone did look at it and came up with some workable solutions to help.
:D
Fugitive
09-18-03, 12:17 AM
Neb,
You're an Aussie, right? There's an interesting article in The Age today (online) and it 'brushes' on some of the things you're talking about. Not violence, murder, etc. per se, but on reasonings 'why'.
Here's an exerpt:
“From an early age, men are taught to be disconnected from their internal worlds, from themselves,” says Dawson. “Women are also socialised to expect men to be strong and not to buckle. So often, when men become vulnerable, women shut them down … we all handle it very badly. It’s a common scenario.”
“By the age of 40, most men don’t have intimate male friends. These are just my own observations. But so many of the men I see might have people to play golf with, or to get along with, but they don’t have an intimate connection with another man. We lose the capacity (to form strong male bonds) because we’re taught (by society) to disconnect from ourselves. We keep practising that, so by the time we reach 40, we’re better at it.”
These are from researchers and 'specialists' and I'm not saying that there is a right or wrong way of thinking. Just food for thought.
firegod
09-18-03, 02:09 AM
Thanks. I've never been to that site, until now. Nice article. It's always good to see experts acknowledge that many of the differences between men and woman are social rather than natural.
Neb,
You're an Aussie, right? There's an interesting article in The Age today (online) and it 'brushes' on some of the things you're talking about. Not violence, murder, etc. per se, but on reasonings 'why'.
Here's an exerpt:
“From an early age, men are taught to be disconnected from their internal worlds, from themselves,” says Dawson. “Women are also socialised to expect men to be strong and not to buckle. So often, when men become vulnerable, women shut them down … we all handle it very badly. It’s a common scenario.”
“By the age of 40, most men don’t have intimate male friends. These are just my own observations. But so many of the men I see might have people to play golf with, or to get along with, but they don’t have an intimate connection with another man. We lose the capacity (to form strong male bonds) because we’re taught (by society) to disconnect from ourselves. We keep practising that, so by the time we reach 40, we’re better at it.”
These are from researchers and 'specialists' and I'm not saying that there is a right or wrong way of thinking. Just food for thought.
Thanks for that article.
I find that men who want to talk usually talk to a female friend, for most of the reasons above. one male friend told me that if he needs to talk he comes to me or other female friends as his mates usually don't know what to say, and usually say come and have a drink and things will be Ok.
Also in my practice I meet many women who don't like strong take control men, then they meet a SNAG and don't like them because they see them as weak and whippy. pretty frightening really :eek:
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the issue, but my view is rather simple: while there are both men and women who support families, the burden falls on men more often. Couple this with their very nature, and it should come as no surprise that they're a bit more likely to snap.
Men are, on average, pretty driven. Sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. That's not to say all men or driven, or that women are not. But I do think it explains the simple fact that history's greatest -- and also most horrible -- acts, have been committed predominantly by men. Seems to me, with men, you're playing a higher stakes game. You can win bigger (Eisenhower) or you can lose bigger (Hitler).
Thanks. I've never been to that site, until now. Nice article. It's always good to see experts acknowledge that many of the differences between men and woman are social rather than natural.
"Many"? Which do you have in mind? I tend to take a contrary point of view. I think there are undeniable, fundamental differences between the sexes. At worst, I'd say we precondition people only in the sense that we tend to encourage things that their gender is overwhelmingly likely to want to do anyway.
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