View Full Version : Kneeling During National Anthem Is Unpatriotic
Those that disrespect our flag and what it stands for should be held accountable for their actions.
They do not get to insult the men and women who died for this country, without consequences.
In many other countries their act would be viewed as an act of defiance and rebellion.
If you don't like the USA, stop taking advantage of it and find yourself a better place to live.
I do understand the need for minority protest, but the National Anthem is not the appropriate forum.
We have come a long way to correcting racial injustice and we continue to do so.
Those that are kneeling at an NFL sporting event are living examples of how far we have come.
The very fact that they have become the privileged class and are still protesting is an irony and a disgrace.
Excessive police force has no discrimination. A vast majority of the time, it is a response to those who keep on resisting legitimate authority.
There are situations where authority is abused and those situations should be reviewed case by case.
The current perception is that abuse of power is directed at a particular segment of the population. It is my opinion that police response is based on a suspect's behavior, that leads to an escalated confrontation. It has nothing to do with race.
Currently, in the USA, the majority of residents are Caucasian. They are also the majority killed in police confrontations.
Yes, this country has had a history of racial discrimination, but the times have changed and instead of citizens being grateful for the equal opportunities that they have, some still keep on dredging up the past, as some kind of entitled excuse to get reparations for a reprehensible period in our history that has nothing to do with present reality.
They use the past to rile the present, even though statistically speaking minorities, such as African Americans, who comprise of only 18% of the population, are over represented in the affluential segment of the population, especially when it comes to sports and entertainment.
Does this also qualify as racial discrimination?
Out of hundreds of people killed by the police every year, there is only a handful of media selected cases brought to national attention. Almost all of them happen to be African American, and some of them have been found to be justifiable homicides.
The vast majority of those killed by police officers happen to be Caucasian, but there is no white outcry, march or protest.
The reason for the deaths almost always starts with the inappropriate behavior of the confronted individual.
Lack of common sense is universal. If everyone learned to respond with " yes sir " , " no sir ", during a stop, even if unjustified, there would be a lot less deaths.
Those responsible police officers are human, as well, and they, too, act out of fear at times.
They have been conditioned for mostly negative encounter with the public and their personal safety is foremost on their minds with each new encounter.
In this time of terrorism and looming nuclear confrontation, it is imperative that we stand united, together and show our respect to the flag, instead of fostering division.
We are lucky to live in the greatest country in the world and we should all be grateful for it.
I would just like to add that I am aware that this is a controversial topic but it very timely and relevant and worthy of discussion. I know that there are enough intelligent individuals present here that could engage in the pros and cons of this article and I invite them to do so and be objective as possible, although it could also be interpreted as a very subjective topic, no matter what side of the argument you are on.
Those that disrespect our flag and what it stands for should be held accountable for their actions.
Who say's they aren't, and what is accountable to you.
They do not get to insult the men and women who died for this country, without consequences.
They aren't protesting the troops.
In many other countries their act would be viewed as an act of defiance and rebellion.
Great those troops that you care so much for dying also did so for freedom if you don't love the freedom to protest go live somewhere else.
If you don't like the USA, stop taking advantage of it and find yourself a better place to live.
If you claim to love the USA you need to love all of it including our freedoms.
I do understand the need for minority protest, but the National Anthem is not the appropriate forum.
Seems perfectly appropriate to me, if the government wants to use the NFL as a recruitment tool and if taxpayers have to fund the stadiums than the players have a right to exercise their free speech. If it's such a big problem for you you can wait five minutes into the game before starting to watch it.
We have come a long way to correcting racial injustice and we continue to do so.
Yes we've come a long way from Slavery and Jim Crowe laws we still have a prison industrial complex, massive economic inequality and KKK marches.
Those that are kneeling at an NFL sporting event are living examples of how far we have come.
Those kneeling at the NFL have also suffered and taken brain damage for a decade for free to entertain you in a game in which most of the players never saw a cent. They also pay a much higher tax rate than most of the people criticizing them.
The very fact that they have become the privileged class and are still protesting is an irony and a disgrace.
Having a President who raped his wife, ducked serving his country, traffics in slaves, refuses to disavow KKK, insulted a gold star family, insulted POW's, is a disgrace to this country. Players making a peaceful protest is not. Get your priorities straight.
Excessive police force has no discrimination. A vast majority of the time, it is a response to those who keep on resisting legitimate authority.
People who have been murdered by the cops were guilty of the following crimes
-jay walking
-selling loose cigarettes
-having an expired registration
Police departments have a terrible record of policing themselves, the thin blue line is real.
There are situations where authority is abused and those situations should be reviewed case by case.
Abusive authority should be punished not "reviewed"
The current perception is that abuse of power is directed at a particular segment of the population. It is my opinion that police response is based on a suspect's behavior, that leads to an escalated confrontation. It has nothing to do with race.
It is my experience that police response is based on statistics and revenue generation not on protecting the populace but working as defunct tax collectors to the poor.
Currently, in the USA, the majority of residents are Caucasian. They are also the majority killed in police confrontations.
Which is faulty science as police shooting and confrontations where for decades suppressed.
Yes, this country has had a history of racial discrimination, but the times have changed and instead of citizens being grateful for the equal opportunities that they have,
Which is your opinion not based on any facts.
some still keep on dredging up the past, as some kind of entitled excuse to get reparations for a reprehensible period in our history that has nothing to do with present reality.
People are still murdered because of the color of their skin.
They use the past to rile the present, even though statistically speaking minorities, such as African Americans, who comprise of only 18% of the population, are over represented in the affluential segment of the population, especially when it comes to sports and entertainment.
And those people have families who are more likely to be poor or incarcerated. Funny how you wish to bring up percentages in wealth what about percentages in incarcerations.
Does this also qualify as racial discrimination?
Out of hundreds of people killed by the police every year, there is only a handful of media selected cases brought to national attention. Almost all of them happen to be African American, and some of them have been found to be justifiable homicides.
Yes the media tends to focus on the children that are murdered or the cases of police coverups. You should take a knee everytime the news comes on...in the privacy of your own home so as to not offend the "troops".
The vast majority of those killed by police officers happen to be Caucasian,
As they should due to representing a much higher amount of the populace, black people are 2.5% more likely to be shoot and killed by the police than a white person.
but there is no white outcry, march or protest.
No white protests and marches...missed Charolottesville did ya. White people march and protest over paying their taxes. black people protest not being murdered by the cops...where are your priorities.
The reason for the deaths almost always starts with the inappropriate behavior of the confronted individual.
And ends with police officers not responding with proportion, police officers have multiple tools to take in offenders without using lethal force. Every lethal shooting from a police officer is a failure from that police officer to properly use their training.
Lack of common sense is universal. If everyone learned to respond with " yes sir " , " no sir ", during a stop, even if unjustified, there would be a lot less deaths.
Police officers making traffic stops shouldn't even have guns in the first place.
Those responsible police officers are human, as well, and they, too, act out of fear at times.
And they act out of racism, anger, boredom, and corruption.
They have been conditioned for mostly negative encounter with the public and their personal safety is foremost on their minds with each new encounter.
In most cases Police Officers are more likely to be responsible for their own deaths than any suspect.
In this time of terrorism and looming nuclear confrontation, it is imperative that we stand united, together and show our respect to the flag, instead of fostering division.
We are lucky to live in the greatest country in the world and we should all be grateful for it.
If you love this country so much stand with all the people not just the ones you agree with.
doubledenim
10-19-17, 01:05 PM
I'm too dense for debate, so I stole this idea from some guy.
"I go to work everyday so that people can kneel for the anthem."
My brother-in-law in the Navy who has been going back and forth to Guam the past year doing lord knows what.
I don't care for the kneeling, but I'm not black. Kaepernick is really reaping what he sowed because he will never play in the NFL again. I don't think he thought that would ever happen, but if he did he has more courage than me.
How is kneeling before the flag disrespectful ? Prostrating as a sign of respect has been around for ever and a day. Just seems like another loopy conspiracy theory to give people something to be outraged by for shts and giggles
People getting butthurt over kneeling is my favorite thing ever.
PS pretty sure the kneeling is actually more "patriotic" than the complainers.
People getting butthurt over kneeling is my favorite thing ever.
PS pretty sure the kneeling is actually more "patriotic" than the complainers.
LOL. Very well said, swany. What are they going to cry about next. Good lord.
How is kneeling before the flag disrespectful ? Prostrating as a sign of respect has been around for ever and a day.
As with everything, it changes with context and intent. With the national anthem, people have customarily shown their respect by standing. Thus, refusing to do so is a way of dissenting from that, even if kneeling might be a sign of respect or deference in a completely different context.
As with everything, it changes with context and intent. With the national anthem, people have customarily shown their respect by standing. Thus, refusing to do so is a way of dissenting from that, even if kneeling might be a sign of respect or deference in a completely different context.
Yeah I get that but not really, Yods. Since what time of the complainers has genuflecting been a sign of disrespect (no need for a response. You're probably shaking your head as well). Turning your back, peeing on it, cutting it up or burning it etc yes I can appreciate complete outrage. The faux outrage is so ott these days it's become a complete joke. Have any defence personal complained? I havent seen and would be very surprised if they did.
[QUOTE=Siddon;1804792]Who say's they aren't, and what is accountable to you.
Hard to debate a card carrying liberal but I will give it a try.
They should held accountable to respect the National Anthem and follow proper decorum or should we change that as well, as part of your right?
They aren't protesting the troops.
They are openly defying the Commander In Chief, so yeah they are protesting the troops.
Great those troops that you care so much for dying also did so for freedom if you don't love the freedom to protest go live somewhere else.
I doubt that they died for your right to spit on our flag. You go live somewhere else. Obviously, you don't respect this country enough. You want to change it.
If you claim to love the USA you need to love all of it including our freedoms.
I don't love people like you, who are taking advantage of those so called freedoms.
Seems perfectly appropriate to me, if the government wants to use the NFL as a recruitment tool and if taxpayers have to fund the stadiums than the players have a right to exercise their free speech. If it's such a big problem for you you can wait five minutes into the game before starting to watch it.
Really? Guess what, my season tickets are already cancelled.
Yes we've come a long way from Slavery and Jim Crowe laws we still have a prison industrial complex, massive economic inequality and KKK marches.
Who said it was a perfect world?
Those kneeling at the NFL have also suffered and taken brain damage for a decade for free to entertain you in a game in which most of the players never saw a cent. They also pay a much higher tax rate than most of the people criticizing them.
Oh, so you expect me to cry for guys that made millions for taking and giving hits as if they had no clue of possible consequences.
Having a President who raped his wife, ducked serving his country, traffics in slaves, refuses to disavow KKK, insulted a gold star family, insulted POW's, is a disgrace to this country. Players making a peaceful protest is not. Get your priorities straight.
You can't prove any of that liberal BS rant but I'm sure you voted lying and conniving Hillary.
Trump has already done more for us economically in less than a year than Obama did in 8 years.
People who have been murdered by the cops were guilty of the following crimes
-jay walking
-selling loose cigarettes
-having an expired registration
What's your point? And people have had bricks fall on their heads. Those people did not die because of those " crimes ".
Police departments have a terrible record of policing themselves, the thin blue line is real.
Never said any thing against civilian review boards.
Abusive authority should be punished not "reviewed"
Authority should first be reviewed and if deemed abusive punished.
It is my experience that police response is based on statistics and revenue generation not on protecting the populace but working as defunct tax collectors to the poor.
So, you admit to having no real police experience but that still does not prevent you from spouting.
Which is faulty science as police shooting and confrontations where for decades suppressed.
???
Which is your opinion not based on any facts.
???
People are still murdered because of the color of their skin.
As they are all over the world. In the real world, unfortunately we are not all one. Throughout history wars have been fought because of race and religion.
And those people have families who are more likely to be poor or incarcerated. Funny how you wish to bring up percentages in wealth what about percentages in incarcerations.
Funny, how you don't mention that 18% of the population is responsible for 60% of the crime.
Yes the media tends to focus on the children that are murdered or the cases of police coverups. You should take a knee everytime the news comes on...in the privacy of your own home so as to not offend the "troops".
???
As they should due to representing a much higher amount of the populace, black people are 2.5% more likely to be shoot and killed by the police than a white person.
They also commit 10 times the crime and FYI more blacks are killed by other blacks than they are by whites in this country. Of course, I could always mention current South Africa, where the majority of whites are killed by blacks. So now, you are probably going to say I am a racist but I bet you I have more real black friends then you do.
No white protests and marches...missed Charolottesville did ya. White people march and protest over paying their taxes. black people protest not being murdered by the cops...where are your priorities.
My priorities are trying to get this country together to face a common enemy, some thing that you are completely ignorant of.
And ends with police officers not responding with proportion, police officers have multiple tools to take in offenders without using lethal force. Every lethal shooting from a police officer is a failure from that police officer to properly use their training.
When all else fails, let's revert to generalizations. You really should avoid words like " every " , because that just demonstrates how little you know.
Police officers making traffic stops shouldn't even have guns in the first place.
Traffic stops are the second leading cause of death of police officers. You want them to make stops with exactly what in their hand?
And they act out of racism, anger, boredom, and corruption.
Such a lame and ignorant blanket statement.
In most cases Police Officers are more likely to be responsible for their own deaths than any suspect.
That's right, blame the victim, but that's nothing new for your kind.
If you love this country so much stand with all the people not just the ones you agree with.
Oh, so now you expect me to kneel with you? That movie you will never see.
You really should go somewhere else ( if you are here at all ). You reek of unhappiness.
Yeah I get that but not really, Yods. Since what time of the complainers has genuflecting been a sign of disrespect (no need for a response. You're probably shaking your head as well). Turning your back, peeing on it, cutting it up or burning it etc yes I can appreciate complete outrage. The faux outrage is so ott these days it's become a complete joke. Have any defence personal complained? I havent seen and would be very surprised if they did.
Well, disrespect as a concept is mostly symbolic, so I think any action can express it, if that's the intent. To be clear, I'm using "disrespect" to mean a withholding of respect or deference, without the pejorative connotations others might attach to it.
As far as I can see, there's no real dispute on this point: the kneeling is specifically intended as a defiance of the normal custom by those doing it. The response isn't based on some weird interpretation or speculation: people are straight-up saying this. The two sides disagree as to whether or not this is correct, or the right place/way to do it, and so on, but they don't really disagree that it's being done for this general purpose.
As for defense personnel, if you mean just military/veterans, sure, lots have complained. And lots have defended it.
As far as I can see, there's no real dispute on this point: the kneeling is specifically intended as a defiance of the normal custom by those doing it.
As for defense personnel, if you mean just military/veterans, sure, lots have complained. And lots have defended it.
Yeah sure I do understand that, but to me defying a traditional custom doesnt have anything to do with thoughts towards the flag. Just seems like such a waste of energy to get upset bout it. As for military personnel complaining - I had no idea. I'll ask my niece what she and her husband think.
Dare I say it, just seems like a first world problem, like the trending conpsiracy at the moment Melania is a body double. Too much cookoo in the coffee.
Disclaimer - I stand for the flags and anthems so my issue is not the kneeling either.
The quality of this discussion is gonna have to go way up if it's going to continue. Phrases like "your kind" need to go, like yesterday. Both of you guys seem to think you have an intimate knowledge of the other's worldview based on a post or two, and that's poisonous to productive discussion.
A few choice things I feel compelled to respond to:
They should held accountable to respect the National Anthem and follow proper decorum or should we change that as well, as part of your right?
It's not clear what you mean by "accountable." If you mean socially accountable, sure, okay. If you mean they should be forced or punished...yeah, absolutely not.
They are openly defying the Commander In Chief, so yeah they are protesting the troops.
This is almost a total non-sequitur. Opposing the leader of something in no way implies a personal disapproval for whoever works under them. If it did, wouldn't that mean lots of conservatives were "protesting the troops" when they defied Obama?
You go live somewhere else.
Not an argument.
Obviously, you don't respect this country enough. You want to change it.
This is a completely indefensible sentiment. No country is perfect, and thus every country can and should continue to change to better strive for improvement.
Also, doesn't the slogan "Make America Great Again" necessarily mean the country needs to change? :skeptical:
I don't love people like you, who are taking advantage of those so called freedoms.
They wouldn't really be freedoms if we couldn't, would they?
Really? Guess what, my season tickets are already cancelled.
Not an argument.
Who said it was a perfect world?
You, when you implied that people shouldn't want it to change?
Authority should first be reviewed and if deemed abusive punished.
...and the whole argument is one side saying that isn't actually happening.
You can say they're wrong, but this is the argument.
When all else fails, let's revert to generalizations.
I mean, you just threw out like a dozen generalizations, but okay.
Daniel M
10-19-17, 02:41 PM
I see this as similar to debates that regularly happen over here when people refuse to sing the national anthem or wear a poppy. At the end of the day, our countries are meant to be the upholders of liberty and freedom of speech, in fact the people that we are supposed to be respecting died for that right. Just as they are within their rights to choose what they do, we are within our rights to personally disagree with them and even be angered about them. Should the government/state get involved and force people to act one way or another, punish people for not doing what they want? Absolutely not. So if you disagree with them and think they are being disrespectful, fair enough, but I honestly find it disgusting how someone in a position of power is using his government position to demonise them.
The Gunslinger45
10-19-17, 02:53 PM
Here is my two cents as both a veteran and a cop.
They want to kneel? Let them. But my wallet is closed to the NFL. Clearly the rich NFL players don’t need my money that badly. And I will stick to college football.
Here is my two cents as both a veteran and a cop.
They want to kneel? Let them. But my wallet is closed to the NFL. Clearly the rich NFL players don’t need my money that badly. And I will stick to college football.
Free speech countered by free speech. As it should be.
Citizen Rules
10-19-17, 03:16 PM
Let me preface my post with two statements.
I hate Trump as a president. I think he's a dangerous man who loves the sound of his own voice, far too much.
My post is in response to the general thread and not to any one person. I've only skimmed the thread and have not read all the post.
I'm not a fan of athletes kneeling during the national anthem. I don't claim to know all their reasons for doing it. I believe it's mainly black athletes protesting what they see as unfair treatment of blacks by the police forces across America.
However...the alleged unfair treatment is not coming from the U.S. government or coming from our national laws...but would be coming from individual police officers, and so any alleged civil rights violations is from the individual and not the U.S. government.
Such displays of kneeling during the national anthem might have been appropriate in the 1950s and 1960s during the civil rights movements, when there was institutionalized discrimination. That discrimination at government level has been done away with. Making the kneeling protest during a national anthem, misplaced.
Worse than misplaced, kneeling by sports players during the national anthem at sport events, is divisive...It suggest that there's some kind of race war going on in America and the end result of suggesting that is to cause more tension, more accidental killings, and black youth will suffer the most. We all suffer from divisiveness and taking sides.
I'd suggest these players take their protest out of the workplace and work to solve any problems they have with police procedures through grass roots organizations and the court systems.
BTW, I believe the vast majority of police are good people and many of the black shooting incidents by cops, have been shown to be blown out of proportion by the media. The media misrepresents the facts to increase their profits, which cause an uproar. And many police officers of all races have been killed just because they wore a blue uniform.
Hard to debate a card carrying liberal but I will give it a try.
They should held accountable to respect the National Anthem and follow proper decorum or should we change that as well, as part of your right?
Can someone google translate this? It might be hard to debate with a liberal but it seems to be very hard for you to make a comprehensive argument. I'm actually an independent who voted in the Republican primary this year for a responsible non-Russian colluding John Kasich. Also the America I believe and fought for doesn't force people into being patriotic.
They are openly defying the Commander In Chief, so yeah they are protesting the troops.
The Commander In Chief was the one responsible for the NFL protested. It was a small group of people before Mr. Draft Dodger decided to call them sons of bitches. That is pathetic
I doubt that they died for your right to spit on our flag. You go live somewhere else. Obviously, you don't respect this country enough. You want to change it.
Taking a knee isn't spitting on a flag, see there's thing call proportion and some people are capable in acting in such a manner.
I don't love people like you, who are taking advantage of those so called freedoms.
Yeah we get that, it's clear to me that America only exists for some and not for others. You're offended by people taking a knee well I'm offended by individuals who pervert our constitutional rights in the name of patriotism.
Seems perfectly appropriate to me, if the government wants to use the NFL as a recruitment tool and if taxpayers have to fund the stadiums than the players have a right to exercise their free speech.
Then they are funding the protests
Really? Guess what, my season tickets are already cancelled.
good
Oh, so you expect me to cry for guys that made millions for taking and giving hits as if they had no clue of possible consequences.
So it's fairly obvious that you have a level contempt for those people before they even took that knee. I do wonder what America you want to live in.
You can't prove any of that liberal BS rant but I'm sure you voted lying and conniving Hillary.
Trump has already done more for us economically in less than a year than Obama did in 8 years.
I can actually support every claim I made, as for Trump doing more for the economy than Obama, Obama had to fix a number of problems that hurt this country and gave us 8 years of recovery. What has Trump even done for our economy?
What's your point? And people have had bricks fall on their heads. Those people did not die because of those " crimes ".
Never said any thing against civilian review boards.
Authority should first be reviewed and if deemed abusive punished.
IF you are claiming the authority is abused then their is no need for a review you are already claiming the infraction. Civilain reviews also are not on the scene of crimes and working in an investigative role. It is on police officers to act responsibly and to hold their fellow officers accountable not a civilian oversight board
So, you admit to having no real police experience but that still does not prevent you from spouting.
I've been around cops my whole life, half of them I don't trust
As they are all over the world. In the real world, unfortunately we are not all one. Throughout history wars have been fought because of race and religion.
Great but you are the one suppressing people's rights to express themselves and protest those things.
Funny, how you don't mention that 18% of the population is responsible for 60% of the crime.
And in many cases those "crimes" were created and classified as a way to suppress the black vote which is straight out of the Nixon playbook.
They also commit 10 times the crime and FYI more blacks are killed by other blacks than they are by whites in this country. Of course, I could always mention current South Africa, where the majority of whites are killed by blacks. So now, you are probably going to say I am a racist but I bet you I have more real black friends then you do.
Well I would like to think we would hold our police to a higher standard to murderers. As for your black friends well gee you sure got me there course I don't have any white friends either. I'm an adult man I haven't needed a friend since I was six.
My priorities are trying to get this country together to face a common enemy, some thing that you are completely ignorant of.
Oh no the common enemy...like Magneto. Quick call the Justice League or maybe we should join the rebel alliance to stop Darth Vader. Seriously how old are you...how about not having enemies period.
When all else fails, let's revert to generalizations. You really should avoid words like " every " , because that just demonstrates how little you know.
To quote you at the start of your tirade
Hard to debate a card carrying liberal
Yes I will say it again...in every single case the lethal shooting was a failure from that police officer. A good cop brings in criminals alive.
Traffic stops are the second leading cause of death of police officers. You want them to make stops with exactly what in their hand?
1. It's the second leading cause of death because of the police officers driving not from being shot.
2. You don't pull people over with your gun out...you watch too many movies. And actually Police Officers shouldn't have to even pull over motorists if someone is speeding you have the liscense plate number you can give the ticket by mail. It would save lives...but we know you are against that.
Such a lame and ignorant blanket statement.
So you are saying those cops don't exist at all...funny coming from someone who uses the word "blanket statement"
https://media.rbl.ms/image?u=%2Ffiles%2F2017%2F02%2F18%2F636229854975335842-102842117_zCiblLL.gif&ho=https%3A%2F%2Faz616578.vo.msecnd.net&s=632&h=8c9fe04b52d284a7fec6860c036b6432ceaee960631bf156f3d73faf907e9193&size=980x&c=1826788855
that's right, blame the victim, but that's nothing new for your kind.
Most police officers die in car accidents, they aren't "victims" because the crime is their own poor driving
Oh, so now you expect me to kneel with you? That movie you will never see.
You really should go somewhere else ( if you are here at all ). You reek of unhappiness.
And yet somehow as unhappy as I am I managed not to make a thread detailing my issues with football players taking a knee.
Keep looking for that common enemy buddy
God Bless all the protesters and the United States of America. However, we have a plethora of problems which still need attention and were never "fixed".
matt72582
10-19-17, 03:34 PM
I wonder if Yoda still thinks I'm a card-carrying Communist :)
[QUOTE=Yoda;1804837]The quality of this discussion is gonna have to go way up if it's going to continue. Phrases like "your kind" need to go, like yesterday. Both of you guys seem to think you have an intimate knowledge of the other's worldview based on a post or two, and that's poisonous to productive discussion.
Point taken. By " your kind " I meant liberal and should have said that but I didn't think someone was going to mistake him for a conservative. I certainly don't have an intimate knowledge of his world view but am familiar with the liberal talking points, which he clearly defined. My bad.
A few choice things I feel compelled to respond to:
It's not clear what you mean by "accountable." If you mean socially accountable, sure, okay. If you mean they should be forced or punished...yeah, absolutely not.
Accountable for loss of revenue and yeah, benched by owner if necessary, because of the divisiveness that they cause.
This is almost a total non-sequitur. Opposing the leader of something in no way implies a personal disapproval for whoever works under them. If it did, wouldn't that mean lots of conservatives were "protesting the troops" when they defied Obama?
When referring to troops as such, in the context of flag and anthem, the Commander In Chief is paramount, so when he is disrespected so are the troops. As far as conservatives vs. Obama, two wrongs don't make a right.
Not an argument.
This is a completely indefensible sentiment. No country is perfect, and thus every country can and should continue to change to better strive for improvement.
Comment was not meant to denigrate change but to assert that this was a state of affairs in the whole world, not necessarily just the USA.
Also, doesn't the slogan "Make America Great Again" necessarily mean the country needs to change? :skeptical:
Sure, and I accept it in it's context.
They wouldn't really be freedoms if we couldn't, would they?
My point being that The First Amendment is often abused. Gestures of defiance such as kneeling or holding up a black gloved fist have nothing to do with speech. They are gestures and the implication is rebellion. In large gatherings, they could be perceived as an incitement to riot. The Constitution does not protect that " freedom ".
Not an argument.
You, when you implied that people shouldn't want it to change?
...and the whole argument is one side saying that isn't actually happening.
You can say they're wrong, but this is the argument.
Point well taken!
I mean, you just threw out like a dozen generalizations, but okay.[/QUO
Hmmm... with that statement you generalized more than me but ok.
ash_is_the_gal
10-19-17, 03:56 PM
lol, good luck Yoda :D
I'm actually done I'll just leave with some snowflake triggering imagery
https://media.giphy.com/media/q9HHyHPISNZD2/giphy.gif
https://media.tenor.com/images/7f462f1a7821017f53fd41c5259a51d7/tenor.gif
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Can someone google translate this? It might be hard to debate with a liberal but it seems to be very hard for you to make a comprehensive argument. I'm actually an independent who voted in the Republican primary this year for a responsible non-Russian colluding John Kasich. Also the America I believe and fought for doesn't force people into being patriotic.
The Commander In Chief was the one responsible for the NFL protested. It was a small group of people before Mr. Draft Dodger decided to call them sons of bitches. That is pathetic
Taking a knee isn't spitting on a flag, see there's thing call proportion and some people are capable in acting in such a manner.
Yeah we get that, it's clear to me that America only exists for some and not for others. You're offended by people taking a knee well I'm offended by individuals who pervert our constitutional rights in the name of patriotism.
Then they are funding the protests
good
So it's fairly obvious that you have a level contempt for those people before they even took that knee. I do wonder what America you want to live in.
I can actually support every claim I made, as for Trump doing more for the economy than Obama, Obama had to fix a number of problems that hurt this country and gave us 8 years of recovery. What has Trump even done for our economy?
IF you are claiming the authority is abused then their is no need for a review you are already claiming the infraction. Civilain reviews also are not on the scene of crimes and working in an investigative role. It is on police officers to act responsibly and to hold their fellow officers accountable not a civilian oversight board
I've been around cops my whole life, half of them I don't trust
Great but you are the one suppressing people's rights to express themselves and protest those things.
And in many cases those "crimes" were created and classified as a way to suppress the black vote which is straight out of the Nixon playbook.
Well I would like to think we would hold our police to a higher standard to murderers. As for your black friends well gee you sure got me there course I don't have any white friends either. I'm an adult man I haven't needed a friend since I was six.
Oh no the common enemy...like Magneto. Quick call the Justice League or maybe we should join the rebel alliance to stop Darth Vader. Seriously how old are you...how about not having enemies period.
To quote you at the start of your tirade
Yes I will say it again...in every single case the lethal shooting was a failure from that police officer. A good cop brings in criminals alive.
1. It's the second leading cause of death because of the police officers driving not from being shot.
2. You don't pull people over with your gun out...you watch too many movies. And actually Police Officers shouldn't have to even pull over motorists if someone is speeding you have the liscense plate number you can give the ticket by mail. It would save lives...but we know you are against that.
So you are saying those cops don't exist at all...funny coming from someone who uses the word "blanket statement"
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Most police officers die in car accidents, they aren't "victims" because the crime is their own poor driving
And yet somehow as unhappy as I am I managed not to make a thread detailing my issues with football players taking a knee.
Keep looking for that common enemy buddy
No friends? Dare I assume you live in an alternate universe? Enjoy your internet. I have nothing more to talk to you about.
I wonder if Yoda still thinks I'm a card-carrying Communist :)
I remember you treated me saying this as some kind of slander the last time I did, but as I pointed out then, I'm pretty sure you've described yourself as one, so I have no idea why I wouldn't think this, nor why you were ostensibly offended at the idea. Can you clear that up for me?
many people here may see foreigners protesting against their own country and support it, but yet when it happens in their backyard its not okay? Its just a signal of frustration at the problems america is having right now. They are exercising there right of free speech and I without a doubt support that.
matt72582
10-19-17, 05:25 PM
I remember you treated me saying this as some kind of slander the last time I did, but as I pointed out then, I'm pretty sure you've described yourself as one, so I have no idea why I wouldn't think this, nor why you were ostensibly offended at the idea. Can you clear that up for me?
That's probably why I was offended, because I took it as slander (after I made a comment about Reagan). I thought I didn't reply because it would appear to be appeasing...
Anyway, you must have confused me with someone else; I've always been a centre-left free-market guy, but with the basics covered, but flexible.. You could also say I'm as far let as you can be for a capitalist. Heck, I had my own store at 22; I love free-enterprise (not monopolies), and believe Socialism could never work because of human nature; lack of co-operation.... I can't stand the knee-jerk reaction and tactic of labeling something that helps the public as "Socialist", and at the same time, I can't stand the idea of nobility associated with how far "left" one can go.
So much for a one-sentence reply, and going off-topic.. I deleted 90% of what I typed earlier :)
P.S. - I think I might have been a bit taken back because it was un-Chris like, if you know what I mean. We might have different opinions, but you're always fair.
HashtagBrownies
10-19-17, 05:29 PM
I personally don't think you need to stand during the anthem.
Those that disrespect our flag and what it stands for should be held accountable for their actions.
Wait, we're talking about the anthem, not the flag. Typo?
They do not get to insult the men and women who died for this country, without consequences.
They don't want police brutality in America, that means they love America.
If you don't like the USA, stop taking advantage of it and find yourself a better place to live.
The sports players didn't hate America.
I do understand the need for minority protest, but the National Anthem is not the appropriate forum.
As long a s a protest isn't violent, you shouldn't care how it's handled out.
We have come a long way to correcting racial injustice and we continue to do so.
And kneeling is how they are 'continuing to do so'.
they have become the privileged class
This contradicts your last point.
Excessive police force has no discrimination. A vast majority of the time, it is a response to those who keep on resisting legitimate authority.
There are situations where authority is abused and those situations should be reviewed case by case.
The current perception is that abuse of power is directed at a particular segment of the population. It is my opinion that police response is based on a suspect's behavior, that leads to an escalated confrontation. It has nothing to do with race.
Are you a psychic or something? You know all of the cops are not racist?
Yes, this country has had a history of racial discrimination, but the times have changed and instead of citizens being grateful for the equal opportunities that they have, some still keep on dredging up the past, as some kind of entitled excuse to get reparations for a reprehensible period in our history that has nothing to do with present reality.
They use the past to rile the present, even though statistically speaking minorities, such as African Americans, who comprise of only 18% of the population, are over represented in the affluential segment of the population, especially when it comes to sports and entertainment.
Does this also qualify as racial discrimination?
I agree with you, I get annoyed whenever people bring up slavery., even though everyone from those times are dead.
Out of hundreds of people killed by the police every year, there is only a handful of media selected cases brought to national attention. Almost all of them happen to be African American, and some of them have been found to be justifiable homicides.
Maybe the sports players got their sources from unbiased sources.
The vast majority of those killed by police officers happen to be Caucasian, but there is no white outcry, march or protest.
Maybe Blacks are called a minority for a reason?
The reason for the deaths almost always starts with the inappropriate behavior of the confronted individual.
Lack of common sense is universal. If everyone learned to respond with " yes sir " , " no sir ", during a stop, even if unjustified, there would be a lot less deaths.
Those responsible police officers are human, as well, and they, too, act out of fear at times.
They have been conditioned for mostly negative encounter with the public and their personal safety is foremost on their minds with each new encounter.
Maybe the sports players were focusing on the brutal, merciless, undeserved deaths.
In this time of terrorism and looming nuclear confrontation, it is imperative that we stand united, together
It's entirely possible to do that without putting your hand on your chest during the anthem
show our respect to the flag
I'd rather show my respect to a country than a picture that represents the country.
We are lucky to live in the greatest country in the world
That's subjective.
We should all be grateful for it.
We should
My marine neighbor said it best: "I dont know if they have a point. They might. I dont pay attention to statistics but it looks bad if you watch the news. But what I DO know is that I have taken an oath to defend the constitution and I am happy to defend these people's right to their First Amendment expression of free speech they are making by kneeling. Thats my job. You can disagree with their actions but anyone who says they need to be punished or banned from the league isnt a real american and doesnt understand the Constitution. Hoorah"
Paraphrasing of course.
Citizen Rules
10-19-17, 06:33 PM
My marine neighbor said it best: "I dont know if they have a point. They might. I dont pay attention to statistics but it looks bad if you watch the news. But what I DO know is that I have taken an oath to defend the constitution and I am happy to defend these people's right to their First Amendment expression of free speech they are making by kneeling. Thats my job. You can disagree with their actions but anyone who says they need to be punished or banned from the league isnt a real american and doesnt understand the Constitution. Hoorah"
Paraphrasing of course.Does First Amendment expression of free speech apply to the work place?
As far as I know, no one here is criticizing anyone's personal right to protest. The issue arises because it's being done during work.
Personally, I think Trump should have kept his nose out of the issue, it's up to the NFL to decide, not him.
donniedarko
10-19-17, 06:43 PM
Yo Des learn to use the quote, hard to read your posts
Personally I don't care. Wanna kneel? Kneel. Wanna boycott? Boycott
The free market will decide, if teams truly lose support due to vocal players kneeling, then the ticket sales will plummet. You'll see more cases like Kapernick where teams don't want that liability and will go with a less talented player. And that's fine, there's consequences to your actions (whether you're free to do it or not)
Does First Amendment expression of free speech apply to the work place?
I think his point was (and again, paraphrasing) that if someone wants to express themselves he shouldnt have to worry about the president of the United States of all people telling a private company to infringe on their free speech on his behalf. Of course the NFL can do what it wants with their own employees to a extent and operate under their own corporate rules. But the leader of our government TELLING the NFL what to do and encouraging a boycott if they dont is fundamentally anti-free speech. And that offends this particular marine.
Guaporense
10-19-17, 07:06 PM
Nationalism is a problem. It creates artificial conflict between people living inside a territory and people living outside of a territory just because they live under a different State organization. It is a very absurd concept indeed: why people should love more people who happen to live inside the same state territory than people living outside?
The only reason for it's existence is to provide cheap labor in the form of soldiers for the government: it's a form of brain washing governments do to make people fight for them. It exists because it is in the interest of governments to have this mass of people under their spell.
As of 2017, nationalism is already dead in most countries: the legacies of the world wars, mainly caused by nationalism, made people understand that it is a bad concept. The US, a country that did not suffer significantly in the world wars, is one of the last places in the world where people are still nationalistic. That is a problem.
The Gunslinger45
10-19-17, 07:15 PM
My marine neighbor said it best: "I dont know if they have a point. They might. I dont pay attention to statistics but it looks bad if you watch the news. But what I DO know is that I have taken an oath to defend the constitution and I am happy to defend these people's right to their First Amendment expression of free speech they are making by kneeling. Thats my job. You can disagree with their actions but anyone who says they need to be punished or banned from the league isnt a real american and doesnt understand the Constitution. Hoorah"
Paraphrasing of course.Does First Amendment expression of free speech apply to the work place?
No workplace stuff is not protected. And one must only do a Google search to see people getting fired for stupid stuff said on social media.
-Hey we live in a democracy, we should all be grateful but people are not grateful in the way I want them to be, what should I do?
-Respect their freedom of expression?
-Nah being fascist is better
Seriously.
Slappydavis
10-19-17, 08:09 PM
I don't actually care about this being used as the latest vector of a larger culture war, but I do care about the arguments used in those discussions, as such I do want to insert a few things:
1) Before Kaepernick started kneeling, he sat during the anthem. A marine named Nate Boyer didn't like that and talked to Kaepernick. After their discussion, they compromised, and out of that mutually respectful talk Kap started kneeling as a way to show honor while protesting. Anyone who says the protests are designed to be disrespectful is either lying or misinformed. This is why they are kneeling during the protest, not flipping off the flag. This is well documented. [1] (http://www.npr.org/2017/10/17/558390590/former-green-beret-and-nfl-player-talks-about-take-a-knee-protests) [2] (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/heres-how-nate-boyer-got-colin-kaepernick-to-go-from-sitting-to-kneeling/)
2) Even IF the protests WERE designed to be disrespectful (and they are not), it is not the military that is being targeted. There is a dangerous conflation between the flag, the anthem, patriotism, and the military. None of those things are synonymous.
3) There are a litany of things that are specified as disrespectful to the flag via the US flag code. http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html#176
Among them:
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery.
(h) The flag should never be used as a receptacle for receiving, holding, carrying, or delivering anything.
(i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform.
Does any of this sound like something that the NFL has broken prior to this instance? I don't recall this level of controversy on that.
cricket
10-19-17, 08:13 PM
Without going through the whole thread, this is a story I've followed a little bit as a football fan.
First off, I'm happy when any protester gets their ass kicked, at least for the most part. It just seems to me that it's hardly ever done in a respectful and productive way.
I would call these particular protests an extension of the black lives matter movement, which made me sick anyway. I feel that the term black lives matter is racist all by itself. Don't use generalizations if you don't want them being used on you. Anybody who only has a problem when someone of one particular skin color has a wrong done to them is a loser. If the BLM people truly wanted unity, then don't make it a black thing. If a white person gets killed by the cops, nobody cares. If a cop gets killed, nobody cares. If a 100 black kids kill another 100 black kids during a weekend in Chicago, nobody cares. If a black man with a record who is resisting arrest gets killed by a cop, justifiable or not, there's riots in the streets. F**k you. Don't tell me it's not true because it is. White people are more likely to get shot despite blacks being more responsible for violent crime. You don't see cops running around plugging people from India. But why not if the cops are just executioners? I don't blame black skin for this, but it is the way it is. I'd say it probably has something to do with poverty and education due to a history of racism. There's no denying that things need to continue to improve. The way to do that is not by making everything about race. It's a very lazy reason many people now give to suit their narrative. I think people who need to make everything about race are creating more of a divide.
So you kneel during the national anthem; why? Is there no racism or police brutality in other countries? Obviously this is a protest that is directed at the country, a country that gave you wealth just for you being good at a sport. And is it the proper platform to do it? I say go do it on your own time. Professional football is your job. Take some of your wealth, put your money where your mouth is, and go open an inner city boys club. Show some real balls and go talk to gang members in person. Do something to improve the inner city and make the police spend more time in white neighborhoods. What are you really trying to accomplish by kneeling? Pissing off millions of people is no way to gain sympathy for your cause. Don't tell me it's to spread awareness because I'm aware enough without watching an overpaid spoiled athlete who gained his riches in the country he's directing his anger at.
Really, if you want to look at justification for outrage directed at players kneeling during the anthem, you only need to look at the players who are spearheading the movement. These are the socks that #1 guy Colin Kaepernick was seen wearing last year-
http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/51/33/24/10859783/3/920x920.jpg
Very cute, Colin, pigs wearing police hats. Does that look like someone who is looking to improve things? I would say part of the outrage over this movement comes from the source. Well that guy is the source.
I'd say the other player who is most outspoken is Michael Bennett. A couple months back, Bennett cried racism and police brutality after he was detained. He was at a show in Vegas and the police showed up after there was a report of a shooting. Of course the video didn't agree with Michael Bennett, who by the way has a book coming out titled How to Make White People Uncomfortable. If you truly want fairness, Michael, you should be labeled a racist and a race baiter.
Protests done the right way and for good reason shouldn't bother anyone. In this case you just need to look at the source and the flawed reasoning and methodology, with no end game in sight.
The national anthem needs an update anyway. Where is the Skrillex feat. Katy Perry version?
The Gunslinger45
10-19-17, 08:40 PM
The national anthem needs an update anyway. Where is the Skrillex feat. Katy Perry version?
Can’t we just us Hendrix? There is no reason to bring the abomination that is dub step into the mix.
Can’t we just us Hendrix? There is no reason to bring the abomination that is dub step into the mix.
I think you mean brostep, but, touche.
The Gunslinger45
10-19-17, 08:42 PM
Can’t we just us Hendrix? There is no reason to bring the abomination that is dub step into the mix.
I think you mean brostep, but, touche.
I don’t care what the call it, that crap gives me ear cancer!
Bros of any kind will do that, bro! That's why it's called brostep!
I have not read much that has been said in this thread thus far. The reason is that I do not want my post to be a response to what others have said here, but instead my own thoughts on the matter without diving into debate.
Saying that, I will go back and read everything and I do respect everyone's right to express their own thoughts and beliefs and I will not attack them personally for doing so.
I posted this on Facebook not long ago and I thought I would share:
This took a lot of reflection for me to post. I know it may cause friends and family to question me, but in the end I love you all.
Here are my thoughts on current events:
My take on standing OR kneeling while the national anthem is played in the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, or a BBQ on Palafox st in Pensacola.)
I want to begin by sharing why I stand, and why I would like others to stand while the anthem of our country is being played at events.
For me, these feelings and principles have been true for decades and have not been influenced by current events. I am an Army veteran and have served in combat. I have witnessed others (FRIENDS AND PATRIOTS of all colors) dying for our country and I have seen fellow countrymen and their families suffer the aftermath of their sacrifice.
I know I am right when I say they would all do it again if they had a choice, as would I.
Our flag represents this sacrifice and much much more; including the sacrifice of those that had to endure the most awful experience I can imagine – slavery.
Kneeling while our flag is flying and being celebrated is a slap in the face of freedom, freedom that was wrenched away from both slaves and POWs, freedom that was fought for AND earned on so many fronts. The American flag stands for freedom and to me anything that takes away from that is not acceptable.
So now you know how much it means to me and always has, this is not a statement from me against current events.
I am willing to kneel if YOU are willing to stand. I will kneel to support your protest of racism and hatred if you are willing to stand for freedom and remembrance of the fallen and disabled. Let’s trade, let’s talk, let’s share, lets suffer AND triumph together.
Let’s come together and respect each other, and be a nation undivided - I can do that, I hope you can as well.
mattiasflgrtll6
10-19-17, 09:38 PM
I really can't relate to the high-octane patriotism of the US. Wherever your views lie, banning people because they don't want to stand during the anthem is not only fascistic, it dangerously borders on dictatorship.
Some people are proud of their country, some aren't. Right now the US lives in a very politically tense climate, so there could be plenty of reasons why someone chooses to kneel during the anthem. I'm just thankful it's not enforced upon school children to sing the anthem anymore.
Being proud of your country is fine. But nationalism is being blindly proud, that you're obligated to be no matter how sh'itty things get.
I really can't relate to the high-octane patriotism of the US.
..
Being proud of your country is fine. But nationalism is being blindly proud, that you're obligated to be no matter how sh'itty things get.
You should try it sometime, there is nothing better than loving your country and what it represents.
I am not blindly proud. I see what it took to get where we are and I know there are more obstacles in the way, I am just saying that I am willing to listen and respect if others are as well.
Captain Steel
10-19-17, 09:56 PM
I thought of a great counter protest by players who don't agree with the kneeling - they should state upfront that their counter protest will consist of them taking a knee DURING plays if any of their fellow players kneels during the national anthem... and claim it has nothing to do with what they're hired to do, but that they are simply practicing THEIR first amendment rights JUST like those who refuse to stand.
You want to see a pro football player fired! (But that would be the point - they'd definitely be fired, but it would expose the double standard that they're being fired for the same thing Kaepernick & company are doing. Of course it would be argued that based on their contracts they couldn't purposefully throw plays, but up until just days ago, the NFL rules also stated that players had to stand for the National Anthem.)
Captain Steel
10-19-17, 10:02 PM
I think the late great Chuck Berry summed it up best, regarding those who will not stand and sing during the National Anthem...
(you knew this was coming as soon as I said Chuck Berry, didn't you?)...
"Those of you who will not sing, ya must be playin' with your own Ding-A-Ling!"
I will totally admit that I did not understand the Black Lives Matter sentiment when it first came out. I mean i thought I did, but i was wrong.
When someone responds to "Black Lives Matter" with "fill in the blank" lives matter it takes away from the original statement, belief, core issue.
When someone kneels for the American flag that so many have sacrificed so much for - it takes away from that sacrifice and does not promote something else, not effectively.
All I know is I once had flowers delivered to an ex years back. She got upset and this triggered an argument.
Some months later, some event played out and I thought it would be sweet to order a silly simple gift as a show of acknowledgment to whatever had played out. Not flowers, I thought! No, I learned THAT lesson. Perhaps an edible arrangement? So I ordered that! At least it was more practical than flowers, which may have been the trigger point from before.
Another argument ensued. I figured she just really REALLY hated gifts, just wanted to argue, or worse had zero respect for my efforts. So I judged her on it and I let it fester. Eventually the topic came back up and all my frustration in "knowing" her motive came to light.
Turned out, all it was was an awkward embarrassment when a delivery service arrived and she didn't have cash on hand to give a tip as she felt obligated to do. Odd. She never properly expressed that for whatever reason, but I never really asked either. Instead, I drew my own conclusions from my own perspective and neither of us empathized with each other's differing perspective.
That sucks, to redefine another's motive based on our own world view than to simply ask and LISTEN to what's really being said. Sure, motive is sometimes obscured, but when it is spelled out so very clearly, there is no excuse except for self-righteous laziness to wilfully dismiss that motive and replace it with our own biases.
My experience? People suck in general. And never in the good way. Live and let live, and stfu from time to time and recognize not everyone sees the world the way you do; else we're all clones, and I for one would shoot myself if so.
The take away is just that some chicks like flowers. Some don't.
....
All I know is I once had flowers delivered to an ex years back. She got upset and this triggered an argument.
Some months later, some event played out and I thought it would be sweet to order a silly simple gift as a show of acknowledgment to whatever had played out. Not flowers, I thought! No, I learned THAT lesson. Perhaps an edible arrangement? So I ordered that! At least it was more practical than flowers, which may have been the trigger point from before.
Another argument ensued. I figured she just really REALLY hated gifts, just wanted to argue, or worse had zero respect for my efforts. So I judged her on it and I let it fester. Eventually the topic came back up and all my frustration in "knowing" her motive came to light.
Turned out, all it was was an awkward embarrassment when a delivery service arrived and she didn't have cash on hand to give a tip as she felt obligated to do. Odd. She never properly expressed that for whatever reason, but I never really asked either. Instead, I drew my own conclusions from my own perspective and neither of us empathized with each other's differing perspective.
That sucks, to redefine another's motive based on our own world view than to simply ask and LISTEN to what's really being said. Sure, motive is sometimes obscured, but when it is spelled out so very clearly, there is no excuse except for self-righteous laziness to wilfully dismiss that motive and replace it with our own biases.
My experience? People suck in general. And never in the good way. Live and let live, and stfu from time to time and recognize not everyone sees the world the way you do; else we're all clones, and I for one would shoot myself if so.
The take away is just that some chicks like flowers. Some don't.
....
Very well said and completely apropos,
The only caveat I have is that people do not suck generally. I mean I guess they do if we compare directly, why would we do that?
I can also say that it is not the flowers the ladies chicks like or do not like, it is the reason they are getting them.
All I know is I once had flowers delivered to an ex years back. She got upset and this triggered an argument.
Some months later, some event played out and I thought it would be sweet to order a silly simple gift as a show of acknowledgment to whatever had played out. Not flowers, I thought! No, I learned THAT lesson. Perhaps an edible arrangement? So I ordered that! At least it was more practical than flowers, which may have been the trigger point from before.
Another argument ensued. I figured she just really REALLY hated gifts, just wanted to argue, or worse had zero respect for my efforts. So I judged her on it and I let it fester. Eventually the topic came back up and all my frustration in "knowing" her motive came to light.
Turned out, all it was was an awkward embarrassment when a delivery service arrived and she didn't have cash on hand to give a tip as she felt obligated to do. Odd. She never properly expressed that for whatever reason, but I never really asked either. Instead, I drew my own conclusions from my own perspective and neither of us empathized with each other's differing perspective.
That sucks, to redefine another's motive based on our own world view than to simply ask and LISTEN to what's really being said. Sure, motive is sometimes obscured, but when it is spelled out so very clearly, there is no excuse except for self-righteous laziness to wilfully dismiss that motive and replace it with our own biases.
My experience? People suck in general. And never in the good way. Live and let live, and stfu from time to time and recognize not everyone sees the world the way you do; else we're all clones, and I for one would shoot myself if so.
The take away is just that some chicks like flowers. Some don't.
....
Very well said and completely apropos,
The only caveat I have is that people do not suck generally. I mean I guess they do if we compare directly, why would we do that?
I can also say that it is not the flowers the ladies chicks like or do not like, it is the reason they are getting them.
Yeah, I may be in a negative vibe having spent the last 5 days with distant relatives. ;)
And yes, you hit my point exactly noting reason. Knowing or not knowing reason or motivation can be divisive in my experience.
Giving a thumbs-up sign in some cultures is very offensive. Is my intent to show approval with a thumb in the air meant to offend or is it only taken as offense regardless of my motive? If there is a divide, surely we as rational people can meet between our respective flags of view and try to reason misunderstood motive and interpretation? Surely? I never see it really. Maybe one day.
Thank you for your reply to a mostly casual and and goofing redirect of a post. Much appreciated.
donniedarko
10-20-17, 12:32 AM
As of 2017, nationalism is already dead in most countries: the legacies of the world wars, mainly caused by nationalism, made people understand that it is a bad concept. The US, a country that did not suffer significantly in the world wars, is one of the last places in the world where people are still nationalistic. That is a problem.
Nationalism is no where near from dead in most countries. Brexit? Scotlant almost leaving UK? Ukrainian revolution? Middle East? La Pen in France? Russia?
Where is it dead exactly?
https://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=41729&highlight=National+anthem
Here is a somewhat similar thread I had started years ago .
Powdered Water
10-20-17, 01:19 AM
This is a cute little thread so far. It'd be neat if maybe a few of the brothers could weigh in tho, eh? I mean, not to be all counter patriotic and all, but wasn't that what the ACTUAL issue was in the first place? Trying to bring awareness to a real issue that most white people don't even know exists?
Police violence against black people is what we need to address. You want to prove what a progressive and intelligent American you are? Then lets talk about the real stuff. No one is trying to sh*t on our flag by protesting. Get a grip and quit being so sensitive. Leave symbols to the symbol minded and lets move on.
This took a lot of reflection for me to post. I know it may cause friends and family to question me, but in the end I love you all.
Here are my thoughts on current events:
My take on standing OR kneeling while the national anthem is played in the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, or a BBQ on Palafox st in Pensacola.)
I want to begin by sharing why I stand, and why I would like others to stand while the anthem of our country is being played at events.
For me, these feelings and principles have been true for decades and have not been influenced by current events. I am an Army veteran and have served in combat. I have witnessed others (FRIENDS AND PATRIOTS of all colors) dying for our country and I have seen fellow countrymen and their families suffer the aftermath of their sacrifice.
I know I am right when I say they would all do it again if they had a choice, as would I.
Our flag represents this sacrifice and much much more; including the sacrifice of those that had to endure the most awful experience I can imagine – slavery.
Kneeling while our flag is flying and being celebrated is a slap in the face of freedom, freedom that was wrenched away from both slaves and POWs, freedom that was fought for AND earned on so many fronts. The American flag stands for freedom and to me anything that takes away from that is not acceptable.
So now you know how much it means to me and always has, this is not a statement from me against current events.
I am willing to kneel if YOU are willing to stand. I will kneel to support your protest of racism and hatred if you are willing to stand for freedom and remembrance of the fallen and disabled. Let’s trade, let’s talk, let’s share, lets suffer AND triumph together.
Let’s come together and respect each other, and be a nation undivided - I can do that, I hope you can as well.
As a foreigner I always feel that questioning this is something out of my league, but living in a country where patriotism has been used to segregate and force a political spectrum rather than to unite and embrace, where symbols have carried a strong political meaning they can't fully get rid of, I naturally sympathize with the kneelers more.
It is true that the US flag and anthem symbolize freedom to a lot of people, and it is wonderful that this feeling unites so many in favor of something so noble. But freedom is not conquered through the symbols, it is conquered through individual and collective fights by those who have denounced and stood against the statu quo and managed to change things. A country is not only an ideal standard, it is also a harsh reality and sometimes counterculture is the way to go to end up conquering the rights that were not recognized in the beginning.
On the other hand and again, while I understand where this comes from, I think that respect to symbols and protocol can never be equated to the inner feeling of a person, which is what patriotism actually is; so rather than disrespect to the concept of nation I would rather talk about an alternative, one that in a way is symbolic as well. People are kneeling to the symbols because they want to spread awareness and in the end goal make theirs an even better country.
Powdered Water
10-20-17, 04:28 AM
What a great post. ^^ I'd like to stand together with any of you right now that wants to end racism. Can we ever be the same if we all look different? Can we as a nation embrace our horrid racist roots and really and truly teach our children a better way? If we do there will no longer be a need for protests of this nature. I truly believe that. Maybe then we can look back at these days and go: "Man, remember when the flag brought our entire country together that one time?" I can dare to dream even now.
cricket
10-20-17, 07:40 AM
This is a cute little thread so far. It'd be neat if maybe a few of the brothers could weigh in tho, eh? I mean, not to be all counter patriotic and all, but wasn't that what the ACTUAL issue was in the first place? Trying to bring awareness to a real issue that most white people don't even know exists?
Police violence against black people is what we need to address. You want to prove what a progressive and intelligent American you are? Then lets talk about the real stuff. No one is trying to sh*t on our flag by protesting. Get a grip and quit being so sensitive. Leave symbols to the symbol minded and lets move on.
I don't think anybody doubts that a black man is more likely to get harassed by the police than a white man is. My understanding though is that the majority of violent crime is committed by a small percentage of black men. If that it true, then those numbers need to even out to achieve true equality at every level. Sometimes real change needs to start from within. I hear of black men who do great work in their own communities and are really trying to make a difference. My first reaction when I hear of these things is to feel great love for them. The people kneeling for the flag, no matter their color, are creating more of a divide. That's a problem.
doubledenim
10-20-17, 08:10 AM
At this point, the kneeling debate has mutated into an exercise in dividing ourselves. This became even more apparent when someone who was spurned by the NFL a few years brought his spoon to the kettle.
How many people are talking about Chris Long and what he is doing? Guess he thought being a waterboy wasn't enough.
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 10:30 AM
My understanding though is that the majority of violent crime is committed by a small percentage of black men.
hey cricket :)
sooo, i hate this argument. i get why people say it - it's the whole 'media frenzy' argument. it's not wrong, it's just... kinda pointless.
the reason blm is pissed is because there's 'no justice, no peace.' cops keep getting acquitted for these murders. can we all at least agree that many of these cops should get more than a slap on the hand, acquittal, and paid leave?
if people really do care about black lives, then they need to speak out against these cops more, but i never see that. instead, it's just 'blue lives matter.' and feelgood cop stories. ok great, there are some great cops out there. that isn't the issue. the issue is the ****** cops getting away with it over and over again. the issue is that the priority for these people is to keep pointing out that they're the minority instead of pointing out how wrong it is. how can blm activists stop protesting when this hasn't changed yet?
cricket
10-20-17, 11:10 AM
hey cricket :)
sooo, i hate this argument. i get why people say it - it's the whole 'media frenzy' argument. it's not wrong, it's just... kinda pointless.
the reason blm is pissed is because there's 'no justice, no peace.' cops keep getting acquitted for these murders. can we all at least agree that many of these cops should get more than a slap on the hand, acquittal, and paid leave?
if people really do care about black lives, then they need to speak out against these cops more, but i never see that. instead, it's just 'blue lives matter.' and feelgood cop stories. ok great, there are some great cops out there. that isn't the issue. the issue is the ****** cops getting away with it over and over again. the issue is that the priority for these people is to keep pointing out that they're the minority instead of pointing out how wrong it is. how can blm activists stop protesting when this hasn't changed yet?
There are plenty of times when I think the use of police force could have been less. Sometimes that's not the fault of the officer, but rather their training and the laws they are allowed to work with. Also, it is not a black issue. I fully understand that some racial prejudice does exist. However, racial injustice towards blacks is most definitely overstated. Playing the race card is like a fashion statement these days. Every little slight seems to be because of race, and that just isn't the case. I dealt with the police very often during my shady past. If I were black, I may have walked away many times thinking it was because I was black. Nobody can tell me that isn't happening a lot. I do not think it is right to even point out different races when it comes to police brutality. It can happen to anybody of any color and it does. As I pointed out earlier, Michael Bennett claimed he was a victim of racial bias. He is one of the leading figures in the NFL movement. He was not a victim of racial bias, and his attorney said so the very next day. It keeps happening and it is also a problem.
That's probably why I was offended, because I took it as slander (after I made a comment about Reagan).
It was meant as a simple, non-pejorative statement of fact.
I thought I didn't reply because it would appear to be appeasing...
Not really sure what this means.
Anyway, you must have confused me with someone else; I've always been a centre-left free-market guy, but with the basics covered, but flexible.. You could also say I'm as far let as you can be for a capitalist. Heck, I had my own store at 22; I love free-enterprise (not monopolies), and believe Socialism could never work because of human nature; we aren't that co-operative... The few people I know who actually call themselves "Socialist" are the most selfish people I ever met.
Yeah, this is all news to me. I don't think I've ever heard you say anything like this, particularly the bit about human nature (though I can't tell if you think that makes Communism inviable, or just Socialism).
I could swear you've said many, many things that are nearly impossible not to read as supportive of Marxism (or at least so condemning of capitalism that there is no alternative conclusion). Was this a misreading, or things you didn't mean, or something else?
P.S. - I think I might have been a bit taken back because it was un-Chris like, if you know what I mean. We might have different opinions, but you're always fair.
If I meant it as a drive-by insult, yeah, I'd like to think that'd be out of character. But I just meant it as "I think this person is literally saying they're a Communist."
doubledenim
10-20-17, 11:31 AM
I always check back when I see Yoda's name to see if a thread has been closed. :blush:
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 11:37 AM
Playing the race card is like a fashion statement these days. Every little slight seems to be because of race, and that just isn't the case.
wanting justice for these black men is not 'playing the race card'
either you think these cops should be held accountable or you don't. most of your post is basically just a big 'yeah ok, but let me tell you why it's like that' instead of 'yeah, ok, let's do something about this.'
this is why they kneel.
wanting justice for these black men is not 'playing the race card'
I think he's saying it's playing the race card to invoke their race as the reason they didn't get justice.
hey cricket :)
sooo, i hate this argument. i get why people say it - it's the whole 'media frenzy' argument. it's not wrong, it's just... kinda pointless.
the reason blm is pissed is because there's 'no justice, no peace.' cops keep getting acquitted for these murders. can we all at least agree that many of these cops should get more than a slap on the hand, acquittal, and paid leave?
if people really do care about black lives, then they need to speak out against these cops more, but i never see that. instead, it's just 'blue lives matter.' and feelgood cop stories. ok great, there are some great cops out there. that isn't the issue. the issue is the ****** cops getting away with it over and over again. the issue is that the priority for these people is to keep pointing out that they're the minority instead of pointing out how wrong it is. how can blm activists stop protesting when this hasn't changed yet?
I don't mind BLM protesting but what I don't like about them is that they destroy property and hurt people. In that respect they become the same as the people they are protesting.
I am against any hate group.
Any one that supports a hate group also affirms that the color of one's skin does matter.
To me, personally, it really does not. I always look at the character of the individual, no matter the race of color, and I will always treat him the way I want to be treated.
What bothers me the most as an American, is the divisiveness that this country is going through. We are destroying ourselves from within and there is no imaginary enemy at the gates. The enemy is real and getting more ready every day to end our civilization.
That's why it's imperative to stop the divisiveness and form a united front to really be ready for what's coming. And it's coming!
cricket
10-20-17, 11:54 AM
wanting justice for these black men is not 'playing the race card'
Talk about justice for everybody and I'm all aboard.
either you think these cops should be held accountable or you don't. most of your post is basically just a big 'yeah ok, but let me tell you why it's like that' instead of 'yeah, ok, let's do something about this.'
I think anybody should be held accountable for murder. Is that what we are seeing though? I think in many cases it's extremely debatable. It should go for black and white victims, right?
this is why they kneel.
Including the player who made up a story about racial prejudice against him. Is that the kind of guy whose side you want to be on?
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 12:10 PM
Talk about justice for everybody and I'm all aboard.
I think anybody should be held accountable for murder. Is that what we are seeing though? I think in many cases it's extremely debatable. It should go for black and white victims, right?
it's black lives matter because black lives are being killed at an alarming rate in comparison to white lives.
https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
http://www.fatalencounters.org/our-visualizations/
Including the player who made up a story about racial prejudice against him. Is that the kind of guy whose side you want to be on?
huh? i'm not on any 'guy's' side.
it's black lives matter because black lives are being killed at an alarming rate in comparison to white lives.
https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/
http://www.fatalencounters.org/our-visualizations/
So, earlier you said the "black men are committing crimes at a disproportionate rate" argument was pointless, and in the context of what you were responding to at the time, it probably was. But in the context of this argument, it seems like a pretty important point.
That first link emphasizes, on its home page, that "Black people were 25% (242) of those killed despite being only 13% of the population." That's the kind of number that really needs to be couched in relative terms to have any import on this part of the discussion.
It's entirely possible that the data don't fully encompass the issue here, and that the more important question is why we have such a dramatic difference in the rate of crime across demographic groups to begin with. But if a data-based argument can be made here for systemic and disproportionate police brutality based on race, it would pretty much have to control for that general rate of crime to be legitimately cited as evidence. Does such a number/study exist?
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 12:25 PM
So, earlier you said the "black men are committing crimes at a disproportionate rate" argument was pointless, and in the context of what you were responding to at the time, it probably was. But in the context of this argument, it seems like a pretty important point.
i think it matters in this context because of the 'but what about all the other lives' mention. i mean, i care about non-black lives too, pretty much everyone i know and love is white, but we aren't being gunned down @ the same rate.
so, we care because it's happening at an alarming rate, as established. and responding with 'but it's not really as common as people think' is besides the point.
i dunno. makes sense to me.
That first link emphasizes, on its home page, that "Black people were 25% (242) of those killed despite being only 13% of the population." That's the kind of number that really needs to be couched in relative terms to have any import on this part of the discussion.
i agree. i did a bit of research and it's hard to find a lot of nuanced results without really spending a lot of time on it (which i don't have atm. i should be working actually! i'm probably gonna go do that after this post lol :D)
It's entirely possible that the data don't fully encompass the issue here, and that the more important question is why we have such a dramatic difference in the rate of crime across demographic groups to begin with. But if a data-based argument can be made here for systemic and disproportionate police brutality based on race, it would pretty much have to control for that general rate of crime to be legitimately cited as evidence. Does such a number/study exist?
yeah, i'm honestly not sure. i'd love it if others would like to contribute to these stats with different cited sources of their own if they have any.
cricket
10-20-17, 12:25 PM
it's black lives matter because black lives are being killed at an alarming rate in comparison to white lives.
What about black lives being taken by other blacks? Surely that's a much greater problem.
huh? i'm not on any 'guy's' side.
I'm talking about one of the leaders of that movement. It's about racial injustice in regards to police officers against blacks. Yet, this guy made up a story about racial injustice towards himself from police. That tells me a lot.
So, earlier you said the "black men are committing crimes at a disproportionate rate" argument was pointless, and in the context of what you were responding to at the time, it probably was. But in the context of this argument, it seems like a pretty important point.
That first link emphasizes, on its home page, that "Black people were 25% (242) of those killed despite being only 13% of the population." That's the kind of number that really needs to be couched in relative terms to have any import on this part of the discussion.
It's entirely possible that the data don't fully encompass the issue here, and that the more important question is why we have such a dramatic difference in the rate of crime across demographic groups to begin with. But if a data-based argument can be made here for systemic and disproportionate police brutality based on race, it would pretty much have to control for that general rate of crime to be legitimately cited as evidence. Does such a number/study exist?
There have definitely been studies like that done by the FBI in preparation for their annual reports but I don't have access to them. You might be better equipped to locate them.
cricket
10-20-17, 12:28 PM
And if you want to compare blacks versus whites being shot by police. If you go by who commits the most violent crime, theoretically there would be more blacks being shot and killed then there is now.
What about black lives being taken by other blacks? Surely that's a much greater problem.
Why would the presence of a "greater problem" preclude people from talking about this one? I've never understood these kinds of deflections. If we see this to its logical conclusion, we'd all be knitting malaria nets or something and never fixing anything else wrong with the world.
cricket
10-20-17, 12:32 PM
Why would the presence of a "greater problem" preclude people from talking about this one? I've never understood these kinds of deflections. If we see this to its logical conclusion, we'd all be knitting malaria nets or something and never fixing anything else wrong with the world.
Sorry; what I meant was there is a relation between blacks who murder and blacks who get killed by police. If you're in a group that commits more violent crime, I think it would only make sense that you're in the group most likely to be killed by police.
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 12:40 PM
What about black lives being taken by other blacks? Surely that's a much greater problem.
what does this have to do with police brutality? does black people killing other black people affect those killings?
i gotta say, i'm disappointed in this response. i dunno man, it feels like you're trying to derail it and make it about something else. it's like we're not allowed to talk about police brutality against black people until we go through all these other hoops of discussion first. where does the need to do that come from?
I'm talking about one of the leaders of that movement. It's about racial injustice in regards to police officers against blacks. Yet, this guy made up a story about racial injustice towards himself from police. That tells me a lot.
ok. haven't heard about that. this is why i don't really follow individual people as much as what the movement stands for.
cricket
10-20-17, 12:52 PM
what does this have to do with police brutality? does black people killing other black people affect those killings?
See my response to Yoda. I'm just saying that there is a correlation between violence from and violence toward.
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 12:53 PM
if you want to talk about black-on-black crime, then i hope you're also willing to discuss:
- statistics showing how crime is always more prevalent in poorer neighborhoods (which is why crime is just as bad in poor, white, urban areas)
- black people typically receiving harsher incarceration periods than white people for the same crime
- how schools with large percentages of blacks are underfunded even though they have the same tax base and incomes, and how this would affect the community as a whole
and how all of this affects crime rates.
cricket
10-20-17, 01:00 PM
Again, see my response to Yoda.
Obviously we have a lot of racial issues that we need to work on. Anybody can see that.
However, people act like police are just randomly pulling over innocent black people and beating or shooting them, and that's just not happening. A lot of the problems come from within.
it's like we're not allowed to talk about police brutality against black people until we go through all these other hoops of discussion first.
I follow a lawyer on Twitter whose Pinned Tweet is:
https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/827697914478596098
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 01:08 PM
Again, see my response to Yoda
i did. that was my response. that isn't really a response to anything i said. -_-
Obviously we have a lot of racial issues that we need to work on. Anybody can see that.
However, people act like police are just randomly pulling over innocent black people and beating or shooting them, and that's just not happening. A lot of the problems come from within.
ughhh. who cares. i don't care what people are 'acting like.' people 'acting like' this is happening in an exaggerated form should not be the most important point. the most important point should be that these cops who are fkn unchecked murderers are still out there, totally within their rights to keep spreading hate and terror. you want people to shut up about it? then we need to do something about them, first and foremost. but no. all we get in response is "but not all cops!!!!!211@!3one!"
that's waaaay more effed up than some people 'playing a race card' on social media
anyhoo i'm done now lol, i need to stop chatting anyway. bye for now, y'all. :bashful:
Citizen Rules
10-20-17, 01:09 PM
The percentage of bad cops unfairly harassing black suspects is minuscule. And if it wasn't for the media hyping these incidents we wouldn't have this problem.
According to this Wiki article
Law enforcement in the United States (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_the_United_States)In 2008, state and local law enforcement agencies employed more than 1.1 million people on a full-time basis, including about 765,000 sworn personnel (defined as those with general arrest powers). Agencies also employed approximately 100,000 part-time employees, including 44,000 sworn officers.NOW of the nearly 1 million cops, how many of them shot and killed black suspects just for the heck of it?...The fact is the rare incidents that do happen are given SO much intense media attention, that it makes it seem like a rampant problem, it's not.
In a nation with a HUGE population of 325 MILLION people, of course there's going to be bad racist in every walk of life.
The problem is, the average human can't visualize those numbers in their heads in a meaningful way, so we react to the personal tragedies we hear on the news. The so called cop shootings are taken way, way, way out of context. I'm telling you the majority of white cops (black cops too) and the majority of black men and the majority of ALL Americans are good people and do not kill each other. It's the media that feeds our fears of each other by telling half truths and outright lies in their 15 second sound bites.
Gangland
10-20-17, 01:15 PM
I never understood why we said the Nation Anthem before sporting events in the first place, or say the pledge of allegiance at school every morning. How many times must I pledge allegiance to this insecure state? I shouldn't have to constantly reassure my country of my allegiance. If the national anthem is of such importance, why don't we do it before everything? As something that started as a show of patriotism during World War I at a baseball game has been inserted into every facet of professional sports. But I don't feel bad for the NFL (I really don't care about football in the first place). I love that this hyper military/patriotic demographic that the NFL has banked on for decades is now turning on it.
I do believe in respecting the flag, but I also believe in allowing the freedom for other people to protest in a (non violent) way they see fit. If they want to kneel, lay down, pick their nose, burn the flag during the national anthem, they shouldn't be stopped (well, maybe for the fire permit for burning the flag), but they also have to face the consequences of their actions.
cricket
10-20-17, 01:25 PM
i did. that was my response. that isn't really a response to anything i said. -_-
ughhh. who cares. i don't care what people are 'acting like.' people 'acting like' this is happening in an exaggerated form should not be the most important point. the most important point should be that these cops who are fkn unchecked murderers are still out there, totally within their rights to keep spreading hate and terror. you want people to shut up about it? then we need to do something about them, first and foremost. but no. all we get in response is "but not all cops!!!!!211@!3one!"
that's waaaay more effed up than some people 'playing a race card' on social media
anyhoo i'm done now lol, i need to stop chatting anyway. bye for now, y'all. :bashful:
I have no beef with you because I believe your heart is in the right place. We're just on different planets regarding this issue.
The Gunslinger45
10-20-17, 02:35 PM
What about black lives being taken by other blacks? Surely that's a much greater problem.
Why would the presence of a "greater problem" preclude people from talking about this one? I've never understood these kinds of deflections. If we see this to its logical conclusion, we'd all be knitting malaria nets or something and never fixing anything else wrong with the world.
In Cricket’s defense it is very easy to hold that opinion when you see it every night.
Holding the opinion that it's a greater problem isn't the issue. Thinking it means we shouldn't be talking about something else is.
The Gunslinger45
10-20-17, 02:57 PM
Holding the opinion that it's a greater problem isn't the issue. Thinking it means we shouldn't be talking about something else is.
True. But if we actually want to solve this race issue to focus solely on bad cops while ignoring black on black homicide or other issues ain’t the route either.
Also on a completely unrelated note that I think I should have brought up earlier. Do the kneeling protests annoy me? Sure they do. But the NFL and Roger Goddell pissed me of ten times more last year.
I work for the Dallas Police Department. I also worked on July 7th 2016. I listened over my squad car radio as “Officer Down” was called out. And yeah I still get plenty emotional about the subject. And what did Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys want to do? They wanted to wear a sticker to show solidarity for my fallen brothers. The NFL said no. They cited uniform regulations. A BS move in my opinion especially since just this past season they allowed helmet stickers to be worn for victims of the Florida hurricanes. Which is great, by all means. Show support for victims of Harvey. Get involved in charity work too! The NFL is actually pretty good at that and gets lost in between bad players doing bad things. But let’s not say the NFL is about protecting the free speech of kneeling protesters when being choosy about helmet stickers, fining players for wearing purple to raise awareness for domestic violence, and God forbid they use a prop for a touchdown celebration or dance.
That position is somewhat racist, as it follows the line of thinking that protesting police violence is protesting white police violence as opposed to all police violence.
ash_is_the_gal
10-20-17, 03:00 PM
lol @ knitting malaria nets
matt72582
10-20-17, 03:09 PM
It was meant as a simple, non-pejorative statement of fact.
Not really sure what this means.
Yeah, this is all news to me. I don't think I've ever heard you say anything like this, particularly the bit about human nature (though I can't tell if you think that makes Communism inviable, or just Socialism).
I could swear you've said many, many things that are nearly impossible not to read as supportive of Marxism (or at least so condemning of capitalism that there is no alternative conclusion). Was this a misreading, or things you didn't mean, or something else?
If I meant it as a drive-by insult, yeah, I'd like to think that'd be out of character. But I just meant it as "I think this person is literally saying they're a Communist."
I do critique the system, because it's not capitalism in terms of values received, or exchange, but cronyism, corruption, etc... I think it needs reforming when there are problems, to save the system. Even Adam Smith said the system wouldn't work properly with high income inequality.
It might appear that I sound Marxist at times because I believe everyone in the richest country in the history of man should have housing, health care, education, food.. I figure we pay enough in taxes, so why not go to the essentials - priorities... But if we could get rid of homelessness with a Republican plan, say loosening housing construction regulations.. It reminds me of the guy in Seattle (who was once homeless).. He finally got on his feet, and started building small homes for $1,000, but a couple people complained, "eye sore" was the term I remembered them using, and a member of the City Council said how it wasn't a great place to stay...... but it's better than the street!
But if we actually want to solve this race issue to focus solely on bad cops while ignoring black on black homicide or other issues ain’t the route either.
No one should ignore either, because murder is evil. Kendrick Lamar actually talks about that (among other things) in his song "Blacker the Berry". I'll quote the last line just to show what I mean, but the whole song provides some deep insight into current race relations.
(Side-note, I think it's one of the greatest tunes of the modern era.)
"So why did I weep when Trayvon Martin was in the street
when gang banging make me kill a ***** blacker than me?
Hypocrite!"
From my understanding (which is WHAT DO I KNOW?), no one is ignoring this stuff, least of all the African American community, least of all those that want some sort of change.
PS this was mostly just a way to bring Kendrick up. :D
True. But if we actually want to solve this race issue to focus solely on bad cops while ignoring black on black homicide or other issues ain’t the route either.
Also on a completely unrelated note that I think I should have brought up earlier. Do the kneeling protests annoy me? Sure they do. But the NFL and Roger Goddell pissed me of ten times more last year.
I work for the Dallas Police Department. I also worked on July 7th 2016. I listened over my squad car radio as “Officer Down” was called out. And yeah I still get plenty emotional about the subject. And what did Jerry Jones and the Dallas Cowboys want to do? They wanted to wear a sticker to show solidarity for my fallen brothers. The NFL said no. They cited uniform regulations. A BS move in my opinion especially since just this past season they allowed helmet stickers to be worn for victims of the Florida hurricanes. Which is great, by all means. Show support for victims of Harvey. Get involved in charity work too! The NFL is actually pretty good at that and gets lost in between bad players doing bad things. But let’s not say the NFL is about protecting the free speech of kneeling protesters when being choosy about helmet stickers, fining players for wearing purple to raise awareness for domestic violence, and God forbid they use a prop for a touchdown celebration or dance.
Yeah, everybody is wrapped up in their own agenda and ignore other problems but, worst of all, fail to see the big picture.
I know exactly where you are coming from, brother.
The Gunslinger45
10-20-17, 03:30 PM
But if we actually want to solve this race issue to focus solely on bad cops while ignoring black on black homicide or other issues ain’t the route either.
No one should ignore either, because murder is evil. Kendrick Lamar actually talks about that (among other things) in his song "Blacker the Berry". I'll quote the last line just to show what I mean, but the whole song provides some deep insight into current race relations.
(Side-note, I think it's one of the greatest tunes of the modern era.)
"So why did I weep when Trayvon Martin was in the street
when gang banging make me kill a ***** blacker than me?
Hypocrite!"
From my understanding (which is WHAT DO I KNOW?), no one is ignoring this stuff, least of all the African American community, least of all those that want some sort of change.
PS this was mostly just a way to bring Kendrick up. :D
Well played Kendrick Lamar work in.
The Black community in my personal and professional experience does not ignore it. I get way too many call concerning this sort of behavior. But it is frustrating when the powers that be (the national media and Congress) give it a pass over or at most a fleeting glance. Which makes me think of my own quote,
They either don’t know, don’t show, or don’t care about what goes on in the hood.
And yes that is my own way to force in a quote from a John Singleton movie. ;)
matt72582
10-20-17, 04:29 PM
I never understood why we said the Nation Anthem before sporting events in the first place, or say the pledge of allegiance at school every morning. How many times must I pledge allegiance to this insecure state? I shouldn't have to constantly reassure my country of my allegiance. If the national anthem is of such importance, why don't we do it before everything? As something that started as a show of patriotism during World War I at a baseball game has been inserted into every facet of professional sports. But I don't feel bad for the NFL (I really don't care about football in the first place). I love that this hyper military/patriotic demographic that the NFL has banked on for decades is now turning on it.
I do believe in respecting the flag, but I also believe in allowing the freedom for other people to protest in a (non violent) way they see fit. If they want to kneel, lay down, pick their nose, burn the flag during the national anthem, they shouldn't be stopped (well, maybe for the fire permit for burning the flag), but they also have to face the consequences of their actions.
LMAO @ "insecure state" --- very good focused humor :)
matt72582
10-20-17, 04:31 PM
Russia - white on white crime...... People kill those they know, those they live around.
Kissintel
10-22-17, 01:00 PM
Here is my take on these kinds of issues and problems: Outrage culture and outrage advertising is a big thing. You can blame one thing or another, yet the fact remains. Those that play into it are feeding it whether they want or not, and I am contributing as well in some form, yet I try as much as possible to do the most good and as much as I personally can.
The term "if it bleeds it leads" applies to the Internet, and the Internet is following a progression toward being wielded wholly as a tool for power. Censorship is a big part of that, and controlling the narrative.
Personally, I love people that hate me and I care about the concerns of those that wish to do me ill. I want nothing but the best for everyone, yet it pains me greatly when bad people come unto the seat of power and go unchecked. I am not referring to Trump here, but I get that people would make that connection. If you are one of those people, simply remove Trump from anything I just said, and you have my thoughts on nearly every topic under the umbrella of outrage culture.
-Hey we live in a democracy, we should all be grateful but people are not grateful in the way I want them to be, what should I do?
-Respect their freedom of expression?
-Nah being fascist is better
Seriously.
Word fascist lost its meaning in today's world, it is used for everything, most of the time wrongly.
Word fascist lost its meaning in today's world, it is used for everything, most of the time wrongly.
I don't think it's used wrongly when it means exactly what I imply here, nationalistic totalitarianism.
I don't think it's used wrongly when it means exactly what I imply here, nationalistic totalitarianism.
Bringing people in front of a judge for this kneeling situation (as it was suggested) might be too much, but many democracies would do it, there is nothing fascist in defending your constitution, that is again different in USA and Europe because in USA people can say whatever they want, I just want to point out holding people responsible dose not equal fascism. If they were brought in front of a political judge, imprisoned for some insane amount of time, beaten up etc. Those would be signs of fascism.
Bringing people in front of a judge for this kneeling situation (as it was suggested) might be too much, but many democracies would do it, there is nothing fascist in defending your constitution, that is again different in USA and Europe because in USA people can say whatever they want, I just want to point out holding people responsible dose not equal fascism. If they were brought in front of a political judge, imprisoned for some insane amount of time, beaten up etc. Those would be signs of fascism.
Precisely I am talking about those who want to bring people in front of a judge for this situation, or make them face administrative or legal consequences for not "respecting" national symbols, forcing not only patriotic views but a very specific way to express them. I don't know where did "defending the constitution" factor in here but these people who try to force others to conform to their own standard of nationalism are not defending any constitutional text. So let me call them fascists as much as I want if that's your matter (not that defending legality makes you inherently less of a fascist, by the way).
Also I don't know what the hell are you talking about when you mention Europe here. USA is not the only country in the world that recognizes freedom of expression and where coercive measures of the sort shouldn't be tolerated.
TheUsualSuspect
10-23-17, 08:31 AM
America has become my favourite reality television show.
Precisely I am talking about those who want to bring people in front of a judge for this situation, or make them face administrative or legal consequences for not "respecting" national symbols, forcing not only patriotic views but a very specific way to express them.
Ah so you meant they would in time become fascist, got it.
I don't know where did "defending the constitution" factor in here but these people who try to force others to conform to their own standard of nationalism are not defending any constitutional text. So let me call them fascists as much as I want if that's your matter (not that defending legality makes you inherently less of a fascist, by the way).
Well, because in some countries citizens are bound by constitutional law - highest law there is in a county - not to disrespect their flag, for example. I'm simply pointing out a paradox - people call up for democracy but are quick to disrespect their democratically voted laws, not saying that is the case here, just answering to that last thing you said.
Also I don't know what the hell are you talking about when you mention Europe here. USA is not the only country in the world that recognizes freedom of expression and where coercive measures of the sort shouldn't be tolerated.
Freedom of expression is drastically different in Europe and USA... You don't need to get snappy about it instantly.
Ah so you meant they would in time become fascist, got it.
No, I mean they ARE fascist. Whether they have the power to actually influence anything or not doesn't change this label. If they don't it's just a sign that democracy works.
Well, because in some countries citizens are bound by constitutional law - highest law there is in a county - not to disrespect their flag, for example. I'm simply pointing out a paradox - people call up for democracy but are quick to disrespect their democratically voted laws, not saying that is the case here, just answering to that last thing you said.
Of course, because sticking to law does not equal to lack of fascism. After all fascist governments create a legal system that fits their ideology. What I mean is that saying that something is not fascist just because it's contemplated on a constitution or a legal text is not a good argument.
Freedom of expression is drastically different in Europe and USA... You don't need to get snappy about it instantly.
And you base your statement on what exactly?
Of course, because sticking to law does not equal to lack of fascism. After all fascist governments create a legal system that fits their ideology. What I mean is that saying that something is not fascist just because it's contemplated on a constitution or a legal text is not a good argument.
No, I'm not saying something is not fascist only because it is backed up by constitutional or legal texts. I'm saying people (not you personally) cannot claim to be democratic while simply ignoring democratically voted laws by the people they chose to represent them. If you have something against a democratic constitution or a certain law, go through the government, change it, vote, even organizes gathering or whatever you want to do in that manner, but illegally working against a democratically elected law is not a democracy.
And you base your statement on what exactly?
For example you cannot call homosexuality an illness, if you do you might be brought in front of a judge and go to prison. In most of the countries carrying flags and badges in supports of slavery are against the law as well.
No, I'm not saying something is not fascist only because it is backed up by constitutional or legal texts. I'm saying people (not you personally) cannot claim to be democratic while simply ignoring democratically voted laws by the people they chose to represent them. If you have something against a democratic constitution or a certain law, go through the government, change it, vote, even organizes gathering or whatever you want to do in that manner, but illegally working against a democratically elected law is not a democracy.
Of course that's the way to go but a couple things here:
1. Just because something was democratically elected doesn't mean it's not fascist, specially when the needs change and that law comes off as more restrictive towards people who were not taken into account back then.
2. The problem of many legal texts is that they are ages old and they must be understood as part of a specific context. Respecting democracy would ideally lead to understand that a democracy has to be inherently dynamic and bound to change its standards to adapt itself to current society. Instead, there seems to be a trend among governors to be conservative and avoid as much change as possible. You can't treat this as a one-sided issue.
Also, "ignoring" laws is a way to protest them and visibilize an issue that otherwise would not permeate to the rulers, which really doesn't become that much of a problem as long as it is performed in a civil and non-violent way. Civil disobedience has managed to put the focus on a lot of issues.
For example you cannot call homosexuality an illness, if you do you might be brought in front of a judge and go to prison. In most of the countries carrying flags and badges in supports of slavery are against the law as well.
If you mean that, that's specific of each country, not of Europe as a whole, and each have their standards on what stands as freedom of expression and what not.
I find it ironic that during the beginning of the era of hippy love in the USA, the military successfully staged a coup d'état in the country that originated democracy, Greece.
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