View Full Version : Religion and morals
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Any takers on either side of the fence? I think this is an interesting question. I agree with it but then it makes me question what gives us the ability to empathise.
Ohhhhh no. I don't have time to have this discussion this week, and yet I know I won't be able to resist. :laugh: I'll try to nutshell it:
This used to come up a lot in the many religious discussions we used to have, which are admittedly much rarer now (and a lot of those are closed now--though only because of dormancy).
The distinction is between how people behave, and whether or not they have a rational basis for that behavior. There is no denying that non-religious people can and do behave morally. This is very much consistent with the teachings of most organized religions, and is, in fact, sometimes explicitly part of it: The Bible, for example, says that even non-believers have the "law written on their hearts (http://biblehub.com/romans/2-15.htm)." The existence of a conscience is a big part of many theological arguments, as well; it's the beginning of what's essentially a book-long syllogism in C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity.
So it shouldn't be controversial or particularly challenging to any religion that non-believers have a sense of right and wrong. The issue is whether or not it means anything to say something is "right" or "wrong" in a purely materialistic universe. Inevitably, if you drill down deep enough, any materialistic moral system ends up coming down to survival or instinct, neither of which actually overlays cleanly on the traditional Western moral code most of us (believers and non-believers alike) agree on.
I did a search and noticed that.
Nice response, Yods. yeah I sort of look back on eg the pagans and think they must have had a sense of right and wrong without religion, or they would have wiped each other out.
I believe that eny being, except satan, knows what's right or wrong in the final analysis.
Miss Vicky
07-12-17, 04:42 PM
I did a search and noticed that.
Nice response, Yods. yeah I sort of look back on eg the pagans and think they must have had a sense of right and wrong without religion, or they would have wiped each other out.
Paganism is religion.
I dont regard the divine in nature as religious doctrine. If you do, that's fine, but that's not my question.
Sir Toose
07-12-17, 04:51 PM
The issue is whether or not it means anything to say something is "right" or "wrong" in a purely materialistic universe.
That is an excellent distinction.
I believe that eny being, except satan, knows what's right or wrong in the final analysis.
That's a sort of slippery slope as 'right' and 'wrong' can be contextual.
I believe that eny being, except satan, knows what's right or wrong in the final analysis.
What makes you say he/she doesnt know right from wrong, if he exists. Wasnt he God's #1henchman? Maybe he just enjoyed being an egomaniac?
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 04:57 PM
I believe that eny being, except satan, knows what's right or wrong in the final analysis.
I believe Satan knows right from wrong. He merely chooses evil.
It's hard to draw lines when society already has an established set of laws and by extension, accepted levels or morality. I think anyone can empathize or choose to be good or bad without religion, and have a clear understanding of what good or bad is; however, that is still above the safety net of already established social norms. How then were those norms first established? It is impossible to now place this within a vacuum to observe, but we do have history and modern psychology to use as guides for self awareness. Instinctively, we fear out groups. What was right or wrong within our tribe, would not apply to their tribe. Don't kill your neighbor, but that stranger across the river? THE DEVIL!!! Yeah, we still do that. So there's also context as a factor.
gosh. I'm rambling.
Long story short (too late!!!), it's easy to say one can so readily exist without the other, now, after all the rules for engagement have been designed. Without those rules (from whatever source), those born more empathic would of course still be able to feel what those who were born more aggressive are feeling ...as those more in touch with their internal moral compasses are beaten to death for food or territory.
;)
I believe Satan knows right from wrong. He merely chooses evil.
And further to that, does god really know right from wrong? He thought it was ok to sacrifice his own son to torture and death. In my world, infanticide for any reason is pretty bad.
gosh. I'm rambling.
Ramble away :up:
It just got me thinking when I saw that meme. Does my own personal moral code come from a strict religious upbringing or would I have it if I had been brought up as an atheist? I lapsed at the age of 11 but still believe in my own code.
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 05:03 PM
What makes you say he/she doesnt know right from wrong, if he exists. Wasnt he God's #1henchman? Maybe he just enjoyed being an egomaniac?
Like all beings, he was created to know and to love God. Henchman? No. He was the angel of light before he became the devil.
Ramble away :up:
It just got me thinking when I saw that meme. Does my own personal moral code come from a strict religious upbringing or would I have it if I had been brought up as an atheist? I lapsed at the age of 11 but still believe in my own code.
You would have been fine if raised atheist, I believe, if for no other reason than for the already established moral code of society. Where did that moral code come from though, is the more interesting question ;)
Sir Toose
07-12-17, 05:04 PM
I believe Satan knows right from wrong. He merely chooses evil.
If God is omniscient and god created Satan then God created Satan to be evil.
In that case, if Satan was created to be 'evil' then is he 'wrong' if he does good?
:D
Like all beings, he was created to know and to love God. Henchman? No. He was the angel of light before he became the devil.
Henchman was just tongue in cheek to keep it light and bright. You know, like the mods are Yoda's henchmen.:)
If God is omniscient and god created Satan then God created Satan to be evil.
In that case, if Satan was created to be 'evil' then is he 'wrong' if he does good?
:D
LOL my brain hurts. Good point, though.
If God is omniscient and god created Satan then God created Satan to be evil.
In that case, if Satan was created to be 'evil' then is he 'wrong' if he does good?
:D
At first, I was like all grrrrrrrrr! Then I was more like wuuuut? then, at the end there, i was all like totally LOL!
Sir Toose
07-12-17, 05:07 PM
Henchman was just tongue in cheek to keep it light and bright. You know, like the mods are Yoda's henchmen.:)
I'm the unknown quantity.
:)
You would have been fine if raised atheist, I believe, if for no other reason than for the already established moral code of society. Where did that moral code come from though, is the more interesting question ;)
Yeah I think you're onto something. If brought up as atheist would I go about smacking old ladies in the face and kicking kittens? Doubtful. 1. I would be dragged before the court and more importantly 2. that would make me feel bad emotionally
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 05:08 PM
And further to that, does god really know right from wrong? He thought it was ok to sacrifice his own son to torture and death. In my world, infanticide for any reason is pretty bad.
Do you really believe God killed His Son? Or did He allow it to happen?
Do you really believe God killed His Son? Or did He allow it to happen?
I dont believe in god as such (I'm agnostic - sitting on the fence here) but according to my catholic education, his father sacrificed him. He didnt kill him but gave him up to save mnkind. Now I know animals commit infanticide either by hand or by leaving them to the elements, and humans do it as well, but was it godly of god to do it?
That's a sort of slippery slope as 'right' and 'wrong' can be contextual.
I do believe that 'right' is (the path to) God, and 'wrong' (the path to) the devil. I believe they're the opposites. :)
What makes you say he/she doesnt know right from wrong, if he exists. Wasnt he God's #1henchman? Maybe he just enjoyed being an egomaniac?
I reckon that if he'd know it, he wouldn't mess up. Simple as that. Of course, we all mess up (except Jesus/God), so I take back what I said. I just realised we obviously can't tell right from wrong, at least not every single moment, or otherwise we wouldn't mess up? Maybe? As for HIM, the fat bastard, I reckon he messed up absolutely everything, I mean isn't he pure evil, you can say that, say, a psychopath does know right from wrong, but just doesn't care, but I believe otherwise. If he really knew it, I don't see how he wouldn't do the right thing. If you know what's the right thing to do, you do it. :)
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 05:12 PM
If God is omniscient and god created Satan then God created Satan to be evil.
In that case, if Satan was created to be 'evil' then is he 'wrong' if he does good?
:D
It is not possible for Satan to do good.
HashtagBrownies
07-12-17, 05:13 PM
I 100% agree with that quote
As for HIM, the fat bastard,
LOL that was Santa!
I reckon he messed up absolutely everything, I mean isn't he pure evil, you can say that, say, a psychopath does know right from wrong, but just doesn't care, but I believe otherwise. If he really knew it, I don't see how he wouldn't do the right thing. If you know what's the right thing to do, you do it. :)
You really need to watch Bryan Fuller's Hannibal. They touch on theology a LOT. Fascinating. Hannibal knew right from wrong. He just thought he was on the same playing field as god.
Yeah I think you're onto something. If brought up as atheist would I go about smacking old ladies in the face and kicking kittens? Doubtful. 1. I would be dragged before the court and more importantly 2. that would make me feel bad emotionally
lol yeah.
It would be like me saying now, as an adult, "I don't need my mom to teach me right from wrong or to support me! I already (as an adult) KNOW right from wrong, AND I have a job and can take care of myself; therefore, I never needed her for anything."
;)
Ultraviolence
07-12-17, 05:14 PM
I am an atheist! But I really wanted to believe in heaven! To live imagining that something more exists should be so good! But I'm very attached to what I can see and feel to believe in an architect of life. I grew up in church (unfortunately) and saw so much, but I never felt ANYTHING! I believe that Jesus existed but died on the cross so God is dead! If there is a religion that I respect, it is Buddhism, not exactly a religion when we begin to understand the teachings of Buddha. It really is a beautiful philosophy of life that I believe I would identify a lot if I dig more.
Sir Toose
07-12-17, 05:18 PM
It is not possible for Satan to do good.
So knowledge is bad? Knowledge is what Satan gave to man (through Eve).
You can't rebut this without being a hypocrite.
It is not possible for Satan to do good.
Deserves a thread of it's own but parking this here. Which one was really the bad guy
https://sguforums.com/index.php?topic=20959.0
https://www.daltonator.net/durandal/religion/satan.shtml
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 05:21 PM
but was it godly of god to do it?
Would He be more godly if He had forced mankind to act according to His will? How do children demonstrate love for their parents if they are forced to act one way or another? If we can't choose to act according to what's in our heart, then what's the point?
Sir Toose
07-12-17, 05:22 PM
I do believe that 'right' is (the path to) God, and 'wrong' (the path to) the devil. I believe they're the opposites. :)
I believe that you believe that. I also believe that you (generically 'you') can't live here on Earth and not be forced to equivocate on that point.
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 05:25 PM
So knowledge is bad?
Did I say that?
Would He be more godly if He had forced mankind to act according to His will?
No, but he forced his angel army to act according to his will. Was that godly or a dictatorship (like the OP of that forum I linked suggested. He's really funny but also has some good points)
So knowledge is bad? Knowledge is what Satan gave to man (through Eve).
You can't rebut this without being a hypocrite.
I soooo don't want to get bogged down in details of a tangent BUT... i must ;)
Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?
I guess a pedophile could claim that he/she was just teaching the birds and the bees. I mean, one day that information would be useful? WOAH hahaha I can't believe THAT just rolled off my keyboard. ..mmmmmk, then! I'm just going to slowly back away from the keys and go get a coffee to reflect on wtf.
Ultraviolence
07-12-17, 05:26 PM
"Satan"
The best character in the anonymous Best-Seller called THE HOLY BIBLE.
I used to read a lot about the misadventures of poor Lucifer who may have been God's most unrighteous being.
God is unconscious... Then he created the poor devil already knowing that he would be envious and that he would have to expel the poor one from the paradise ...
In God's mind: I'll create this bastard to be my rival because... Well, who knows what the **** he was thinking hehe
oh oh oh... Dani8 before I vanish for 8 minutes again.
fun, trippy thread, hey!
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 05:27 PM
No, but he forced his angel army to act according to his will.
What incident are you referring to, or are you speaking in general?
Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?
.
Or was he actually just giving them a prod to use free will so they learnt that everything has a consequence? That could actually be deemed as a good thing, could it not?
What incident are you referring to, or are you speaking in general?
They were under his control to do his bidding is what I was taught. He didnt give them free will. that's why there was a rebellion upstairs because they got pissed off the monkeys (us) were given something he wouldnt give them. Jealous lil bastards.
Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?
Indeed, it's the second thing.
And it's more than that, too: it's not just "you disobeyed my rule." It's why they did it: the serpent tells them they will "know good and evil." I suspect this is one of those areas where the translation is confusing things, because "know" in this case probably means "determine." In other words, it's not saying "eat this and you'll know more! Yay learning!" It's "eat this to decide for YOURSELF what's right and wrong."
oh oh oh... Dani8 before I vanish for 8 minutes again.
fun, trippy thread, hey!
LOL bring me back a coffee, ynwtf. I shall bring soft boiled eggs and vegemite soldiers. Oh wait, that's for the food thread. Carry on.
Or was he actually just giving them a prod to use free will so they learnt that everything has a consequence? That could actually be deemed as a good thing, could it not?
No joke, there's a great novel called Perelandra (possibly my favorite book) where someone makes this exact argument to try to tempt someone else into disobeying. It's basically a big theological discussion interwoven into a sci-fi narrative.
It's "eat this to decide for YOURSELF what's right and wrong."
So comes back to what I was saying to mesmerising - that's a good thing, right?
Disclaimer, I am not a satanist before anyone assumes. I dont even believe in the devil. I have read LaVey's bible, though.
No joke, there's a great novel called Perelandra (possibly my favorite book) where someone makes this exact argument to try to tempt someone else into disobeying. It's basically a big theological discussion interwoven into a sci-fi narrative.
Writing that down on my book list. :up:
So comes back to what I was saying to mesmerising - that's a good thing, right?
Well, that depends: when you hear someone say someone "tried to play God"--are they usually giving them a compliment? ;)
I don't think it's a good thing, no. But then, I have the benefit of hindsight for all of human history and all the misery that has resulted from us trying to do things our way. Without that, I assume I'd have made the same choice.
Or was he actually just giving them a prod to use free will so they learnt that everything has a consequence? That could actually be deemed as a good thing, could it not?
oh yew! stop playin devil's advocate ;)
As my old man sometimes says: "the Devil has enough advocates already."
He had to say this because I'm pretty much constantly playing devil's advocate, of course.
oh yew! stop playin devil's advocate ;)
Wasnt there a yew tree in the old testament? I'm a bit rusty.
Like Yoda, I always play devil's advocate when I'm trying to find which side of the fence I sit on. :devil: Besides, my evil legal background makes me do it. I have no free will, much like god's henchmen.
And further to that, does god really know right from wrong? He thought it was ok to sacrifice his own son to torture and death. In my world, infanticide for any reason is pretty bad.
Well, that's the question of all the questions, in my book. :) Why does evil exist?
I believe God sent him downstairs to fight for Him and help people, but every action, even that, must have a consequence. One always has to pay for action by passion, even if the action is in the best intentions. He could've said no to the cross, but that would make matters even worso, imho. :)
But if you'll insist, I have no answer. :) Simply because I don't understand why does evil exist.
All I can say:
I really do believe that faith can move mountains, and if you truly believe good will win in the end, it will.
Like all beings, he was created to know and to love God. Henchman? No. He was the angel of light before he became the devil.
Yes, as far as I know he was the prime angel.
If God is omniscient and god created Satan then God created Satan to be evil.
In that case, if Satan was created to be 'evil' then is he 'wrong' if he does good?
:D
Wel...I don't know...maybe satan wasn't evil to begin with. :) But if he was, I'd anwer in the affirmative. :)
I'm the unknown quantity.
:)
:lol:
Do you really believe God killed His Son? Or did He allow it to happen?
Well, in a sense, I think yes. He did kill him. It just had to be done. And he allowed it to happen, imho. :)
It is not possible for Satan to do good.
I agree. :)
LOL that was Santa!
You really need to watch Bryan Fuller's Hannibal. They touch on theology a LOT. Fascinating. Hannibal knew right from wrong. He just thought he was on the same playing field as god.
Yeah, that FAT bastard!
The second part I just don't understand. :)
I used more smilies in a single post than all my posts in life put together. Given the subject, it's the only way to get out of here alive. :)
Sir Toose
07-12-17, 05:41 PM
Did I say that?
Yes, by implication.
Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?
I think it's more simple than that. I think the point is that god wanted people to live in faith and, in doing so, it would eliminate strife/worry etc (which are all born of knowledge/perception) and unnecessary complication. I actually think the difference between 'happiness' and a life of torture lies therein. I've personally gone down many a dark path and know what kind of thoughts and emotions are seeded in walking them.
Hannibal thought he was capable of challenging god as per Bryan's interpretation. Mads Mikkelsen plays him as THE fallen angel Lucifer. He knew right from wrong; he just liked doing bad sht.
I have no answer.
Me either.
OT for a sec - the OP of that forum I linked refers to god as the tyrant. Urmmm goosebumps. Didnt someone here recently refer to Yoda as the Tyrant??? Getting scary.
OK resume normal broadcast.
I believe that you believe that. I also believe that you (generically 'you') can't live here on Earth and not be forced to equivocate on that point.
I agree. :) A lot of seduction is happening down here.
So knowledge is bad? Knowledge is what Satan gave to man (through Eve).
You can't rebut this without being a hypocrite.
I believe knowledge as such is evil. Hell(no pun intended), I think the two may even be the same. But it also may be the only instrument to destroy itself.
Would He be more godly if He had forced mankind to act according to His will? How do children demonstrate love for their parents if they are forced to act one way or another? If we can't choose to act according to what's in our heart, then what's the point?
I agree. :) We seem to agree on a lot, Mesmerized. :)
I soooo don't want to get bogged down in details of a tangent BUT... i must ;)
Is knowledge itself bad? Or was it the disobedience to God's commandment that was bad? Did Satan do good by providing knowledge, or was it manipulation of promising something that appeared good (though they were not read for that knowledge), to trick them into disobeying?
I guess a pedophile could claim that he/she was just teaching the birds and the bees. I mean, one day that information would be useful? WOAH hahaha I can't believe THAT just rolled off my keyboard. ..mmmmmk, then! I'm just going to slowly back away from the keys and go get a coffee to reflect on wtf.
No, no, satan didn't do good. We all know about promises. :) And I'm writing here for the last time - IMHO. :) It is the latter. I think. For the last time - :).
As my old man sometimes says: "the Devil has enough advocates already."
:lol:
Wasnt there a yew tree in the old testament? I'm a bit rusty.
Like Yoda, I always play devil's advocate when I'm trying to find which side of the fence I sit on. :devil: Besides, my evil legal background makes me do it. I have no free will, much like god's henchmen.
You're very sexy when you're evil. ;)
Yes, by implication.
I think it's more simple than that. I think the point is that god wanted people to live in faith and, in doing so, it would eliminate strife/worry etc (which are all born of knowledge/perception) and unnecessary complication. I actually think the difference between 'happiness' and a life of torture lies therein. I've personally gone down many a dark path and know what kind of thoughts and emotions are seeded in walking them.
I agree.
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 06:14 PM
They were under his control to do his bidding is what I was taught. He didnt give them free will.
Dani8, if that is what you were taught, then I am sorry for you. You were very poorly catechized. Angels do, indeed, have free will.
Please relearn your faith.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
311 Angels and men, as intelligent and free creatures, have to journey toward their ultimate destinies by their free choice and preferential love. They can therefore go astray. Indeed, they have sinned. Thus has moral evil, incommensurably more harmful than physical evil, entered the world. God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. He permits it, however, because he respects the freedom of his creatures and, mysteriously, knows how to derive good from it:
For almighty God. . ., because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.
330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.
391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil". The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."
392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This "fall" consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: "You will be like God." The devil "has sinned from the beginning"; he is "a liar and the father of lies".
393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. "There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death."
394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls "a murderer from the beginning", who would even try to divert Jesus from the mission received from his Father. "The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil." In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led man to disobey God.
395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."
http://scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
And I'm writing here for the last time - IMHO. :) It is the latter. I think. For the last time - :)..
Hey what? Dont leave the thread.We now get to discuss if Tyrant Yoda is a bad god or a benevolent god.
OK back to the OP - so social constructs developed the moral code, not necessarily religion, and all for survival is what I'm thinking at the moment. Anyone care to agree or disagree? I;m still open to switching sides of the fence. So if true, was it the power of society that then transplanted that onto holy books to help explain it? Chicken and the egg?
Please relearn your faith.
What faith? I told you, I walked away at the age of 11. :shrug:
Here's a curly one for Beatle after some comments you made the other day in the astrology thread. What do you think?
Since Lucifer means "morning star" which refers to Venus, wouldn't it actually be interesting if Lucifer was a female angel.
This actually makes sense. Note the rampant chauvinism in the old testemant and Koran. If these are books written by followers of god, then they would be against females, since it was a female who stood up to god. Of course in reality chauvinism is in the old testemant and Koran because they were written by men as a justification to control women, but for the purposes of our fun little story lets pretend Lucifer and God are real.
I can go with this theory, I think. Will ruminate some more.
Hey what? Dont leave the thread.We now get to discuss if Tyrant Yoda is a bad god or a benevolent god.
haha, no my darling. I'm not leaving you. I meant I'm writing "IMHO" for the last time (which I obviously wasn't). But I will take a leave. This is becoming monstruous, too monstruous for my taste, at least. Gonna post some new Beatles tracks now. Music heals.
I think Yoda is benevolent.
What faith? I told you, I walked away at the age of 11. :shrug:
VERY sexy.
Oh stop that :bashful:
Werent the Beatles friends of Aleister Crowley? Also friends of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? So where do you think their moral compass came from - religion, the occult, or interconnectivc\ity (I just made that word up. My transcendental meditation education is also rusty).
Here's a curly one for @Beatle (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=88353) after some comments you made the other day in the astrology thread. What do you think?
I can go with this theory, I think. Will ruminate some more.
Yeah, you're on to me.
Yeah, you're on to me.
I like it. Explains to me why the abrahamic books were so anti women. I never really understood that because we all spring from a woman. And isnt there a saying in the bible something like - he who calls his mother a fool deserves the fires of hell. ? But if #1 henchman was actually a henchwoman it pulls it all together IMO
Oh stop that :bashful:
Werent the Beatles friends of Aleister Crowley? Also friends of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? So where do you think their moral compass came from - religion, the occult, or interconnectivc\ity (I just made that word up. My transcendental meditation education is also rusty).
Well, then stop being so god deam sexy. No, I'll cut it, Dani. I know you're married. If your hubby won't kick my, you JUST might.
Yeah, Aleister "the great beast" Crowley, I think so, he was for sure on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's, and by John's choice, I think. From those, I'd pick the occult. John & Yoko were very much into astrology. I have some beliefs on John that I'd rather not say here.
Well, then stop being so god deam sexy. No, I'll cut it, Dani. I know you're married. If your hubby won't kick my, you JUST might.
Yeah, Aleister "the great beast" Crowley, I think so, he was for sure on the cover of Sgt. Pepper's, and by John's choice, I think. From those, I'd pick the occult. John & Yoko were very much into astrology. I have some beliefs on John that I'd rather not say here.
I dont use martial arts outside the dojo so you're safe, Beatley, unless someone tried to beat you up then I'd kick his ass.
You can pm me your beliefs on John if you like. I'm curious about all this stuff, the whole dice. I was a student of maharishi, and thought LaVey's bible made sense for what it was, but I'm still a heretic and probably always will be.
I like it. Explains to me why the abrahamic books were so anti women. I never really understood that because we all spring from a woman. And isnt there a saying in the bible something like - he who calls his mother a fool deserves the fires of hell. ? But if #1 henchman was actually a henchwoman it pulls it all together IMO
The Bible was much manipulated throughout history. That's why there are many contradictions. An eye for an eye and all that. If I'm not mistaken, at the 1st Vatican council, 325 AD (I think it was held somewhere in Greece though), the Roman emperor Constantine litterally changed a lot of it. I saw this in Da Vinci's code,too.
I dont use martial arts outside the dojo so you're safe, Beatley, unless someone tried to beat you up then I'd kick his ass.
You can pm me your beliefs on John if you like. I'm curious about all this stuff, the whole dice. I was a student of maharishi, and thought LaVey's bible made sense for what it was, but I'm still a heretic and probably always will be.
Oh, I have a new bodyguard.
ok, I'll PM you. It's not gonna be comfortable, though. Is that alright?
Oh, I have a new bodyguard.
ok, I'll PM you. It's not gonna be comfortable, though. Is that alright?
Yeah sure. I'm open minded to it.:up:
Citizen Rules
07-12-17, 10:00 PM
Interesting thread! The speculation on the nature of Satan was surprising but interesting too.
Captain Steel
07-12-17, 10:15 PM
Interesting thread! The speculation on the nature of Satan was surprising but interesting too.
This thread sounds like bait for the ol' Omelette du FLAMMAGE to me!
Interesting thread! The speculation on the nature of Satan was surprising but interesting too.
I agree, CR. I had no idea about the connection between satan and venus.
I agree, CR. I had no idea about the connection between satan and venus.
In fact, according to my dad who's deeeeep in such stuff, masonery, the new world order, occult (he's also a heavy Christian) and especially the Second Coming, Satan (or the devil, one and the same) is not the same being as Lucifer. Lucifer is Venus.
And in The Omen (one of Cat's faves, I think) it is said that there's the evil analogy to The Holly Trinity. The devil (God), the antichrict (Jesus Christ), and the false prophet (The Holly Spirit). God/devil are transcendental, and we cannot (at least for now) directly experience them. Jesus/anti are very real. Spirit/false prophet are communicators.
Sir Toose
07-12-17, 10:54 PM
I agree, CR. I had no idea about the connection between satan and venus.
There's a much stronger one between Satan and Saturn. :devil:
This is an interesting thread to read. I'll do a quick chime in if you don't mind and say that I don't believe there's a man with a penis sitting on a cloud in the sky looking down on us, but I do believe that God is within most of us. Some people are just pure trash and there's nothing that can be done. I don't dare try and figure it out as to why some people are pure evil, they just are and sometimes you need to defend yourself if you cross paths. I'm not talking Bill Paxton Frailty type things, I don't even own a shovel, I just mean getting away from the evil as quickly as possible.
I'm comfortable using my Catholic upbringing as a loose guide on how to carry on with people. I think whoever wrote the Ten Commandments seemed to have a good thing going so I won't bother getting tedious if I don't have to. I have respect for anyone's worship of God and I do capitalize God even though I don't neccesarily tune in to church or some other traditions, even though I used to.
Evil seems to be either a mental or physical malfunction that is beyond a person's control, or it is a premeditated essence derived from an over intellectualization during life that drives someone insane. I say this because I have had visions of red many many times, so although I'm not experienced as being a purely evil person, I can certainly understand how the everyday bullsh!t can wear on somebody and tempt them to become a not so nice person.
I like to keep things simple. There are no rules that say I have to have strong convictions, and if I do, there still aren't any rules I'll pay any mind to that say I need to try and force my perspective onto another person unless they truly want me to tell them my thoughts, and even then I'd probably just say "let's just go get some lunch and talk about something else"...unless it was a hot looking blonde who promised to lay me if I spilled the beans, then I would make a bunch of stuff up that I thought sounded good and Holy and would claim my prize. Just kidding. I think humans have a serious imagination and they tie in nerves with labels like guilt, but somewhere there are the things called morals which are a personal guage on what to and what not to do. I suppose if I had been programmed differently at a younger age there might be a different person here typing now but I'm totally cool with my current brainwash and really, what more can I say?
There's a much stronger one between Satan and Saturn. :devil:
Satan backwards is Natas(ha), which I think is a derivative of Natalia, named after Christmas.
This is an interesting thread to read. I'll do a quick chime in if you don't mind and say that I don't believe there's a man with a penis sitting on a cloud in the sky looking down on us, but I do believe that God is within most of us. Some people are just pure trash and there's nothing that can be done. I don't dare try and figure it out as to why some people are pure evil, they just are and sometimes you need to defend yourself if you cross paths. I'm not talking Bill Paxton Frailty type things, I don't even own a shovel, I just mean getting away from the evil as quickly as possible.
I'm comfortable using my Catholic upbringing as a loose guide on how to carry on with people. I think whoever wrote the Ten Commandments seemed to have a good thing going so I won't bother getting tedious if I don't have to. I have respect for anyone's worship of God and I do capitalize God even though I don't neccesarily tune in to church or some other traditions, even though I used to.
Evil seems to be either a mental or physical malfunction that is beyond a person's control, or it is a premeditated essence derived from an over intellectualization during life that drives someone insane. I say this because I have had visions of red many many times, so although I'm not experienced as being a purely evil person, I can certainly understand how the everyday bullsh!t can wear on somebody and tempt them to become a not so nice person.
I like to keep things simple. There are no rules that say I have to have strong convictions, and if I do, there still aren't any rules I'll pay any mind to that say I need to try and force my perspective onto another person unless they truly want me to tell them my thoughts, and even then I'd probably just say "let's just go get some lunch and talk about something else"...unless it was a hot looking blonde who promised to lay me if I spilled the beans, then I would make a bunch of stuff up that I thought sounded good and Holy and would claim my prize. Just kidding. I think humans have a serious imagination and they tie in nerves with labels like guilt, but somewhere there are the things called morals which are a personal guage on what to and what not to do. I suppose if I had been programmed differently at a younger age there might be a different person here typing now but I'm totally cool with my current brainwash and really, what more can I say?
I believe no one's pure evil. Except satan. You don't mean litteraly, right? I don't think getting away from evil is the way to do it. You have to fight it.
What does 'evil' even mean? I dont believe in supernatural forces so I just go with supremely effed up. Some people are. Saying they are evil hands them a victim card. Nup. Just effed up.
I believe no one's pure evil. Except satan. You don't mean litteraly, right? I don't think getting away from evil is the way to do it. You have to fight it.
Well, I believe in fighting the evil within oneself...don;t get me wrong, if someone tried to hurt my family or was sadistic towards me or someone defenseless, I'd consider sorting them out if I could, but I'm not sure I agree that I should be a crusader. I'm not perfect. I'm a selfish person who is trying to unwrap my head from my own ass and still be able to participate in conversation lol.
What does 'evil' even mean? I dont believe in supernatural forces so I just go with supremely effed up. Some people are. Saying they are evil hands them a victim card. Nup. Just effed up.
Well, backwards it means (a)live.
In all seriousness, I don't know. You can ask me that for anything. I don't know for anything what it means. Does anyone? Does anyone know anything? Or is it again just a question of belief? But then what does belief mean etc. You see my point? no? Good. It happened to me more than once that I've been taken to total absurd in conversation. It always ends that way. We're all just mumbling here cause we're enjoying it. At least I am.:)
Well, I believe in fighting the evil within oneself...don;t get me wrong, if someone tried to hurt my family or was sadistic towards me or someone defenseless, I'd consider sorting them out if I could, but I'm not sure I agree that I should be a crusader. I'm not perfect. I'm a selfish person who is trying to unwrap my head from my own ass and still be able to participate in conversation lol.
Appreciate your honesty, man. :)
Mesmerized
07-12-17, 11:47 PM
What does 'evil' even mean? I dont believe in supernatural forces so I just go with supremely effed up. Some people are. Saying they are evil hands them a victim card. Nup. Just effed up.
For someone who claims to have no faith, you do seem to ask a lot of faith based questions. Why is that?
For someone who claims to have no faith, you do seem to ask a lot of faith based questions. Why is that?
You told me I had faith and even told me to go relearn it. What faith? I'm a heretic. I'm asking because I am questioning, which is what heretics do. You're free to input your faith.
Mesmerized
07-13-17, 12:29 AM
You told me I had faith and even told me to go relearn it. What faith? I'm a heretic. I'm asking because I am questioning, which is what heretics do.
Heretics don't question the faith. They pervert it. You're posting faith related questions on a forum devoted to movies. Why? What's your problem?
Captain Steel
07-13-17, 12:35 AM
In fact, according to my dad who's deeeeep in such stuff, masonery, the new world order, occult (he's also a heavy Christian) and especially the Second Coming, Satan (or the devil, one and the same) is not the same being as Lucifer. Lucifer is Venus.
And in The Omen (one of Cat's faves, I think) it is said that there's the evil analogy to The Holly Trinity. The devil (God), the antichrict (Jesus Christ), and the false prophet (The Holly Spirit). God/devil are transcendental, and we cannot (at least for now) directly experience them. Jesus/anti are very real. Spirit/false prophet are communicators.
John...
My uncle & Godfather who passed away just last year achieved the Masonic office of Grand Master during his life. When I was a teenager he influenced me to join the "Jr. Masons" which was a similar organization called the Royal International Order of DeMolay - named for the Grand Master of the ancient Knights Templar, Jaques DeMolay!
As a member I was made privy to the secrets, the rituals, the illuminati within our ranks and conspiracies behind our government as well as forces seen and unseen. We are the modern Crusaders and I can't go into detail on the more overt aspects of our mission, but let's say it's not far from restoring the order, honor and justice that was ripped from Europe and Asia during the middle ages by certain ideologies seeking the genocide of Christian & Jewish Europeans to establish a supremacist ruling political structure that used the trappings of an intolerant religion as the facade for it's much more ominous goals of establishing supremacy via intimidation, bloodshed & conquest, absolute submission by the conquered and a worldwide Caliphate of power in it's most brutal extreme.
Ah, but those were ancient times an the need for such Crusaders is long past... but there are rumblings... some say there may yet be enemies of man who even know plot to once again infiltrate, create an atmosphere of anxiety and terror, and to slay their way to conquest and power...
So one day soon there may once again be a need for the once-boys who are now men: the grown members of the Royal International Order of DeMolay who still stand ready when the world once again needs Crusaders as those led by the master of the Knights Templar!
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e2/83/22/e28322ba0fa5e4cd6ca8fa07f847bfe1.jpg
d_chatterley
07-13-17, 12:58 AM
You're posting faith related questions on a forum devoted to movies. Why?
Because that is what the Intermission forum is for.
What's your problem?
You seem to be very combative.
John...
My uncle & Godfather who passed away just last year achieved the Masonic office of Grand Master during his life. When I was a teenager he influenced me to join the "Jr. Masons" which was a similar organization called the Royal International Order of DeMolay - named for the Grand Master of the ancient Knights Templar, Jaques DeMolay!
As a member I was made privy to the secrets, the rituals, the illuminati within our ranks and conspiracies behind our government as well as forces seen and unseen. We are the modern Crusaders and I can't go into detail on the more overt aspects of our mission, but let's say it's not far from restoring the order, honor and justice that was ripped from Europe and Asia during the middle ages by certain ideologies seeking the genocide of Christian & Jewish Europeans to establish a supremacist ruling political structure that used the trappings of an intolerant religion as the facade for it's much more ominous goals of establishing supremacy via intimidation, bloodshed & conquest, absolute submission by the conquered and a worldwide Caliphate of power in it's most brutal extreme.
Ah, but those were ancient times an the need for such Crusaders is long past... but there are rumblings... some say there may yet be enemies of man who even know plot to once again infiltrate, create an atmosphere of anxiety and terror, and to slay their way to conquest and power...
So one day soon there may once again be a need for the once-boys who are now men: the grown members of the Royal International Order of DeMolay who still stand ready when the world once again needs Crusaders as those led by the master of the Knights Templar!
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/e2/83/22/e28322ba0fa5e4cd6ca8fa07f847bfe1.jpg
Sorry, I didn't know it's personal for you, Steel. (btw thanks for calling me John, I wish everyone would :)) I was just quoting my dad. Yes, he thinks masons are evil, but that's just him. As for me, I have only one thing - Jesus, and my faith in him. Good will win in the end. I've nothing more to say. :)
d_chatterley
07-13-17, 01:30 AM
I am actually much more interested in people's lack of empathy in general. What makes someone not develop it? Is it possible to lose it after you've had it? Are some people just born naturally to be more empathic? Are others just naturally less prone to be empathic? Obviously it is a skill you develop so your family, IMO, will have the biggest part in it. But how much of it could be genetic (if any)?
Whenever I witnessed a person exhibit a complete lack of empathy in a situation that obviously called for it, I have to say it left me totally stunned.
Heretics don't question the faith. They pervert it. You're posting faith related questions on a forum devoted to movies. Why? What's your problem?
What is your problem? This thread was about religion and morals...in the OFF TOPIC SUBFORUM. If you dont like the off topic subforum, which I'm pretty sure you do, why post in it?
Now tell me more about angels and harps in the sky. I doubt very much you're even religious. You just want a punch up. And heretics do question. That's what Heresy is.
Beatle. This is the quote from Hannibal I wanted to post for you yesterday. Now of course he;s a fictional character, but he regards himself as very moral. He also believes in god and believes he's on the same level. I would normally say that's due to having psychopathy or sociopathy, but Hannibal is neither. So what did he base his moral code on, I wonder. Thinks it's OK to kill because god does, or puts himself on the same level to justify him killing people? Chicken and the egg again.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8f/fd/f9/8ffdf990b51470dbe55e5ef496a0127e.jpg
@Beatle (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=88353). This is the quote from Hannibal I wanted to post for you yesterday. Now of course he;s a fictional character, but he regards himself as very moral. He also believes in god and believes he's on the same level. I would normally say that's due to having psychopathy or sociopathy, but Hannibal is neither. So what did he base his moral code on, I wonder. Thinks it's OK to kill because god does, or puts himself on the same level to justify him killing people? Chicken and the egg again.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8f/fd/f9/8ffdf990b51470dbe55e5ef496a0127e.jpg
To cut things short - I don't know. The question of all the questions. Why does evil exist? IDK. I wonder who does. People might say God does, but I don't think God knows anything either. Imho, God isn't thought, he's emotions. It's the devil who thinks. So,if anyone knows, it's him. I could be 100% wrong, though.
I'm happy with that answer. Thank you.
God isn't thought, he's emotions. It's the devil who thinks. So,if anyone knows, it's him. I could be 100% wrong, though.
Dig this!
It's funny how people and books tell you things and you think you've learned but to actually learn something you have to experience something first and feel the sting of it. I've never felt more evil than when I would be a prisoner of my own mind, overthinking and acting up.
Intelligence is a great thing but like most dangerous weapons it shouldn't be toted around in the front seat all of the time. Sometimes it belongs in the back pocket.
Just don't sit down too hard or it may stab you in the assnick.
Captain Steel
07-13-17, 09:45 PM
Sorry, I didn't know it's personal for you, Steel. (btw thanks for calling me John, I wish everyone would :)) I was just quoting my dad. Yes, he thinks masons are evil, but that's just him. As for me, I have only one thing - Jesus, and my faith in him. Good will win in the end. I've nothing more to say. :)
Don't sweat it, John. Everything I told you about the Royal Order of DeMolay I made up (except for the fact that I was indeed a member and the group was named for the Templar Jaques DeMolay). The group was a youth club of little dweebs who wore capes during their meetings, engaged in forced rituals and acted like frustrated middle aged men (instead of the adolescents they actually were) - I quit the group after a year! :D
Captain Steel
07-13-17, 09:53 PM
Beatle. This is the quote from Hannibal I wanted to post for you yesterday. Now of course he;s a fictional character, but he regards himself as very moral. He also believes in god and believes he's on the same level. I would normally say that's due to having psychopathy or sociopathy, but Hannibal is neither. So what did he base his moral code on, I wonder. Thinks it's OK to kill because god does, or puts himself on the same level to justify him killing people? Chicken and the egg again.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/8f/fd/f9/8ffdf990b51470dbe55e5ef496a0127e.jpg
From the Deist point of view (I think it's the Deists, but I'm too lazy to check)... God doesn't kill anyone. God simply created the laws of the universe, like the laws of physics - and these laws are very good for keeping things in balance. God set the law and then lets things play out according to the laws of balance. One law says that every living thing eventually dies. This is good because a planet of hundreds of billions of people (and animals) that never die but which just keeps getting more crowded would be a hellish nightmare for every living thing.
According to this view of God, he's not going around picking people off like a sniper.
Which god are you talking about? And how does that relate to what created a moral code?
Captain Steel
07-13-17, 10:09 PM
Which god are you talking about? And how does that relate to what created a moral code?
The god as defined by the philosophy of Deism. A belief that there is an intelligent supreme being who created the heavens and the Earth, but who established a set of rules that would run things and who then lets our lives play out according to those rules. In other words, a god who does not intervene or interfere directly with his work.
Morality, therefore, is a set of codes created by the mind of man that work in accordance to the logic of the observable universe.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-moral-code-for-Deism
And then he/she punished people for using free will he gave them? Yeah, makes sense...on some other planet. Seems to me it's just playing dice. I dont think this imaginary guy in the sky gave people anything. People just made their own mind up about good -v- bad. The tiny minority who commit atrocities just like torturing animals and humans for shts and giggles.
Captain Steel
07-13-17, 10:42 PM
My point was that Hannibal's perspective (on a God who must enjoy killing since he does it so often) is based purely on a Biblical view of God - where God chooses who lives and who dies today. According to Deism, Hannibal would only be seen as a murderer, not someone acting in the "image of God" by exacting death on others.
There are many philosophies that simultaneously believe in an intelligent creator, yet don't see him taking any joy in killing or even considering it a necessary evil, because he doesn't do any killing. Death (in such philosophies) just happens as it was set into motion as an inevitability, along with everything else that happens, by God. People are only "killed" by other people, or their parts wear out, or they have accidents, suffer natural disasters, or are killed by illness & disease (in the Deist way of thinking).
Perhaps if Hannibal were a Deist and felt we were still created in God's image, then we shouldn't enjoy killing or take any hand in it (as God does not in Deism), but we should learn to accept death as an inevitable outcome for all things - but not one we should act to hasten.
You make as much sense now as you did when you posted a fake photo from a conspiracy theory forum posting a fake photo of child brides. Sorry. Hannibal is a fictional character. He was an example used by me in a show that touches on theology for an exercise in what created the human moral code. Totally missing the point.
I do believe this thread has drifted off topic, just a bit.
At the end of the day, you either believe in God or you do not. Past all of the philosophy, past all the projecting of my own understandings of this physical world, I can understand God's will no more than an ant can understand mine.
To God killing his son. God is a trinity: God, the father; God the son; and God the holy spirit. God, the son stepped down to teach and to ultimately sacrifice his life for ours. With the Old Testament, unblemished lambs were sacrificed to God as offerings in worship and as offerings for forgiveness of sin. Christ replaced that sacrificial offering with his own life---the Lamb of God. And with his sacrifice, all of man's sins were forgiven as it was in the Old Testament before. That is, for as long as man accepts Christ as the son of God, and with that accept his sacrefice for forgiveness.
Man has bastardized the Word of God by placing our own personal spin on the history or interpretations for our own gains, be it for war, political, financial, or a false moral high ground. Everyone knows just enough to debate and spin and sidestep, but most are not intimate. God's Word is still what it is and we all have the free will to accept it or to deny it. You either have faith in this that cannot be scientifically proven or you do not. God's love is unconditional. For as much as I've tried to love unconditionally, I continually fail. For as much as I try to do right, I fail. We are not perfect though, and again I will never comprehend God's love, forgiveness when I clearly do not deserve it, or his grace and mercy, as the ant will never understand mine.
I try to be, but can never be. So I do my best. God's commandments are there, for those who want to learn. I don't mean the obvious 10.
I will not debate this as it is not my place to argue it. It is my place to have faith, represent (pathetically so, I admit), and follow the Word of God. That's tough to do when anonymous online sarcasm is so much fun!! And I do have my mouth and temper, as demonstrated by a few posts of mine here. Still though, this is what I believe for as horrible a follower as I am.
Even in the context of this reply, I still stand by what all I wrote in my earlier ones in this thread.
So, yeah. There's that. Feeling a bit trippy atm so I think I'll head off to sleep. That went deeper than I intended and got preachy. So. G'nite all. Be well.
Captain Steel
07-13-17, 11:16 PM
You make as much sense now as you did when you posted a fake photo from a conspiracy theory forum posting a fake photo of child brides. Sorry. Hannibal is a fictional character. He was an example used by me in a show that touches on theology for an exercise in what created the human moral code. Totally missing the point.
Sorry, what point am I missing?
I was explaining Deism and the fact that the fictional Hannibal's reasoning (i.e. his rationality for his committing murder) is based purely on one concept of God - and it's a skewed concept at that as it doesn't take into account other Biblical variables:
On the "made in image of God" statement - this has been interpreted and misused since time immemorial. The most common acceptance of this Biblical statement is that we are the same as God in certain non-physical respects, but obviously not God ourselves.
We resemble God in our ability to think, to reason, to utilize morality (unlike animals to which higher reasoning and morality is inapplicable). But we were not made in the image of God to the point where we possess his omnipotence or omniscience. Since we do not possess God's power or intelligence, we therefore do not have his authority over life or death - which is why man (under God's biblical law) is not permitted to commit murder.
Captain Steel
07-13-17, 11:59 PM
In the end, Hannibal wrote his own moral code - and isn't that always the mark of every great villain?
And yet, don't we all do that to SOME extent ourselves? (I guess it's the extent to which you do it that determines whether you cross the lines between "good, rebellious, or evil").
I'm a believer...
So do you believe it's possible for someone who has never had access to religious teachings to have empathy and a moral code? This is the crux of my thinking. Say a kid is born in some remote area of the world like a hidden pocket of the amazon.
So do you believe it's possible for someone who has never had access to religious teachings to have empathy and a moral code? This is the crux of my thinking. Say a kid is born in some remote area of the world like a hidden pocket of the amazon.
Not at all. I do however believe that it is more subjective. If you believe ultimately that all life is originates from a series of random or chance chemical reactions then you have to follow that through to believe that each individual and their behaviours are caused by a sequence of random chemical reactions. Correct me if I am wrong.
So do you believe it's possible for someone who has never had access to religious teachings to have empathy and a moral code? This is the crux of my thinking. Say a kid is born in some remote area of the world like a hidden pocket of the amazon.
Not at all. I do however believe that it is more subjective. If you believe ultimately that all life is originates from a series of random or chance chemical reactions then you have to follow that through to believe that each individual and their behaviours are caused by a sequence of random chemical reactions. Correct me if I am wrong.
Not for me to correct you, Sarge I don't have the answers. I only have questions. I just find this interesting to discuss.
Captain Steel
07-14-17, 09:31 PM
Not at all. I do however believe that it is more subjective. If you believe ultimately that all life is originates from a series of random or chance chemical reactions then you have to follow that through to believe that each individual and their behaviours are caused by a sequence of random chemical reactions. Correct me if I am wrong.
What difference should that make, Sarge?
I understand that a lot of morality is based on the promise of eternal life or the threat of damnation, but before we comprehend any of these lofty concepts, we have more basic needs that build the foundation of morality whether religion is present or not.
I mean, we all still have feelings and beyond about the age of 3 we lose our egocentricity and realize that other people exist independent of us but have the same feelings as we do. We learn compassion, sympathy, pity, mercy, kindness, etc.
A set of laws laid down in a formal religion isn't required for a human being to realize other human beings feel pain and love, and that our very survival depends on getting along with others by treating others the way we want to be treated. This is the basis of morality whether we ultimately view ourselves and our species as the result of random chemical reactions or if we come to believe that we all possess an eternal soul.
What difference should that make, Sarge?
I understand that a lot of morality is based on the promise of eternal life or the threat of damnation, but before we comprehend any of these lofty concepts, we have more basic needs that build the foundation of morality whether religion is present or not.
I mean, we all still have feelings and beyond about the age of 3 we lose our egocentricity and realize that other people exist independent of us but have the same feelings as we do. We learn compassion, sympathy, pity, mercy, kindness, etc.
A set of laws laid down in a formal religion isn't required for a human being to realize other human beings feel pain and love, and that our very survival depends on getting along with others by treating others the way we want to be treated. This is the basis of morality whether we ultimately view ourselves and our species as the result of random chemical reactions or if we come to believe that we all possess an eternal soul.
It does but then there is the chance that anyone who wants to excuse their behaviour could simply argue that it is a sequence of chemical reactions. In the animal kingdom there are few morals, if it is 'survival of the fittest' then what separates us?
I understand that a lot of morality is based on the promise of eternal life or the threat of damnation
I don't really follow this, grammatically or factually. Grammatically, a morality can't be "based on" its alleged consequences. Factually, even if I assume you merely meant that this why believers behave morally, I can only say that this is one of those things non-believers say that bears no resemblance to the inner life of a believer. It's roughly equivalent to saying "I understand that Christians believe God wears a white robe and sits on clouds."
Captain Steel
07-14-17, 09:48 PM
It does but then there is the chance that anyone who wants to excuse their behaviour could simply argue that it is a sequence of chemical reactions. In the animal kingdom there are few morals, if it is 'survival of the fittest' then what separates us?
The strange thing is I rarely hear Atheists or Humanists (who do believe we are simply the result of an evolutionary process) use this rationale to excuse immorality.
Many who belong to these groups often have more logical & ethical moral standards than those who sometimes use the contradictions (and often inherent concepts of superiority or divine authorization) contained in various religions to excuse or rationalize otherwise immoral behavior.
The strange thing is I rarely hear Atheists or Humanists (who do believe we are simply the result of an evolutionary process) use this rationale to excuse immorality.
Many who belong to these groups often have more logical & ethical moral standards than those who sometimes use the contradictions (and often inherent concepts of superiority or divine authorization) contained in various religions to excuse or rationalize otherwise immoral behavior.
Me too, but morality is either subjective or objective no?
Captain Steel
07-14-17, 09:57 PM
I don't really follow this, grammatically or factually. Grammatically, a morality can't be "based on" its alleged consequences. Factually, even if I assume you merely meant that this why believers behave morally, I can only say that this is one of those things non-believers say that bears no resemblance to the inner life of a believer. It's roughly equivalent to saying "I understand that Christians believe God wears a white robe and sits on clouds."
What I mean is SOME adherence to morality is influenced by promises or threats within religion. Some folks (not all of course) only practice certain behaviors of morality because their religion has taught them that they will be punished if they don't. They're not adhering to a code because it's necessarily the "right" thing to do, but because they have a belief that not to do so would invite the wrath of a superior being.
The point is that the concepts of morality can be influenced by more than just promises or threats in the afterlife. For those who truly think about what morality is and why it should be practiced (so that our actions are not in some way a detriment to others) - coming to an understanding of the necessity of personal morality can occur within a religious context or just as easily occur outside a religious context - even if the person believes humans are nothing more than another animal with a more complex brain.
In the animal kingdom there are few morals, if it is 'survival of the fittest' then what separates us?
Big teeth?
Tht comes back to survival, as Yods brought up. Animals dont thrill kill. They kill for food or protection (except maybe foxes, the lil bastards).
Captain Steel
07-14-17, 10:02 PM
Me too, but morality is either subjective or objective no?
Indeed. It's one or the other depending on how you look at it. ;)
This gets into the question of: is there an ultimate objective morality?
Wars are fought over this question (whose moral code is the correct one?)
Different philosophies have different moral codes. Religions have different moral codes. Cultures have different moral codes (taboos & norms). Governments have different moral codes (laws).
I don't really follow this, grammatically or factually. Grammatically, a morality can't be "based on" its alleged consequences. Factually, even if I assume you merely meant that this why believers behave morally, I can only say that this is one of those things non-believers say that bears no resemblance to the inner life of a believer. It's roughly equivalent to saying "I understand that Christians believe God wears a white robe and sits on clouds."
What I mean is SOME morality is influenced by promises or threats within religion. Some folks (not all of course) only practice certain behaviors of morality because their religion has taught them that they will be punished if they don't. They're not adhering to a code because it's necessarily the "right" thing to do, but because they have a belief that not to do so would invite the wrath of a superior being.
The point is that the concepts of morality can be influenced by more than just promises or threats in the afterlife. For those who truly think about what morality is and why it should be practiced (so that our actions are not in some way a detriment to others) - coming to an understanding of the necessity of personal morality can occur within a religious context or just as easily occur outside a religious context - even if the person believes humans are nothing more than another animal with a more complex brain.
Being "moral" for the promise of a treat or in fear of punishment is not morality. That is only self interest. Choosing to do good only for the sake of doing good or being selfless for the betterment others is not that. Someone of faith does not serve FOR the promise of an afterlife.
Have you never loved someone? Buy flowers for the date. Are you sacrificing your earned cash to see her pleased or are you simply looking to get laid? Call it what you want, but only one is love.
Being "moral" for the promise of a treat or in fear of punishment is not morality. That is only self interest. Choosing to do good only for the sake of doing good or being selfless for the betterment others is not that. Someone of faith does not serve FOR the promise of an afterlife.
.
That's altruism. My question is, which some people (not on here) poo poo, is that only religion can give that. I help an old lady put her groceries in her car. Is god telling me to do that, or do I do it because I like helping old ladies and it makes my community go around?
Captain Steel
07-14-17, 10:36 PM
Being "moral" for the promise of a treat or in fear of punishment is not morality. That is only self interest. Choosing to do good only for the sake of doing good or being selfless for the betterment others is not that. Someone of faith does not serve FOR the promise of an afterlife.
Have you never loved someone? Buy flowers for the date. Are you sacrificing your earned cash to see her pleased or are you simply looking to get laid? Call it what you want, but only one is love.
I agree with all that. And your statement is probably true for most people of faith - but not all. Some faiths have stronger emphasis on afterlife rewards or punishments for adhering to codes than others.
Same could be said for your example of a guy buying flowers for a date - people have different motives. He may be in love AND want to get laid, and feel he's hedging his bets.
I've heard some Christians express similar ideas toward the divinity of Christ - they feel that if death is just the end of existence, they won't know the difference, BUT if Christianity is right and Jesus is the only ticket into heaven, then they'll take the safe bet and go with Jesus.
A lot of this comes down to how and what people are taught (both within and outside of religion). I remember one friend stealing cigarettes from a store and saying it was okay because they'd go to confession and be absolved. Despite having to repent and promise not to do it again, they believed that confession simply absolved sins - you could simply confess next time that you broke your promise last time - that would be your latest confession and that would make continued stealing & promise breaking okay. They utilized this religious dogma to rationalize stealing because they were taught that this is some kind of "system" that the church set up with God - this was how religious morality works.
We can all see the problem with this, but I don't think anyone can deny that there are people of various faiths who will use their faith itself as an excuse, rationality or absolution for intentional choices to be unethical... or doing things far worse.
Citizen Rules
07-14-17, 11:04 PM
One of these days I'm going to have time to post to this thread, it looks lively! So for now I'll just say:
I'm moral! I follow my own morality code. Hey it works for me.:p
Being "moral" for the promise of a treat or in fear of punishment is not morality. That is only self interest. Choosing to do good only for the sake of doing good or being selfless for the betterment others is not that. Someone of faith does not serve FOR the promise of an afterlife.
.
That's altruism. My question is, which some people (not on here) poo poo, is that only religion can give that. I help an old lady put her groceries in her car. Is god telling me to do that, or do I do it because I like helping old ladies and it makes my community go around?
Yeah. That was sort of my point in saying morality (at least in the context of what Captain was saying) isn't about "promises or threats within a religion." If motive is that, then that is not morality. I just wanted a line drawn.
=)
Still thumbing around with another reply to hit your other point.
Sir Toose
07-15-17, 12:05 PM
... it makes me question what gives us the ability to empathise.
I suppose this is the crux of my own agnosticism. One need only look to see systems and order in the universe that are beyond the ability of man to create. On the other hand, almost any attempt to quantify it leads to belief. Quite the conundrum. To me, agnosticism is the only reasonable/tenable position though I don't begrudge the believers or the non believers their positions (even if the hubris from either side can become dangerous and volatile at a moment's notice).
This thread got me thinking back to when I decided I didn't believe in the God Iwas taught about. I was upstairs in a rented cottage on the lake, on family vacation. I was alone, meandering into a guest bedroom with the sun piping through the window and dust slowly settling within the beam. I said out loud to myself quietly "There's no God", and I believed it. Weird. Such an isolated moment. That moment came back as an affirmative echo when I did a whip it back in 1998. It was th last whip it I did but during my 4 second blackout, I found myself in a maze of a metallic walk-in freezer-like universe and my general feeling was that God was not there.
This could mean nothing. I mean, it doesn't mean anything, really. But nowadays, I could care less how the universe works or if there is a God. I believe in being good to people but not letting people torture me or run game down on me. Not sure if I qualify for an Agnostic or not. Maybe an Agnostic Existentialist? Who knows? I wish I cared more but honestly, it's none of my business how everything works. I'm far more interested in enjoying my time here. Boredome is evil if you ask me. Boredome and laziness.
Sir Toose
07-15-17, 12:28 PM
Well, the only qualifier for being agnostic is in thinking that the question of God is unanswerable. I've been borderline agnostic nihilist but that sort of rage/hate only hurts oneself. Anyway, I wish I could care less but I see the universe as the ultimate puzzle that I'm constantly try to solve/understand. It's a futile endeavor because I can't even see the edges but the universe exists and so do 'we' so we must be a cog of sorts in some larger machinery (with unknown purpose). In the meantime I busy myself with the odd and the fringe because those things are closer (I think) to what I perceive as the edges. A million little mysteries stave off the boredom (and agony) of the mundane.
I agree about keeping busy and looking for the edges or the fringe. I am very much a student of that school of thought. I love details and I love humor. I think if there is a God, and yeah I do capitalize God out of respect and maybe a little fear haha, but if there is a God, God is humor and details. Details extending to various shiny or curious things in objects, coincidences or human behavior, and humor extending to tripping over a chair and making a Buddy Rich styled fill where the sound reverberates off of a large room making the meters jump into the red in an analog saturation for a brief moment. That seems to get a laugh out of me, anyway. Not so much the laughter of hate, like making fun of someone's character or pointing out a perceived flaw with the opposite sex.
Still ruminating over the idea of lucifer being a woman. Toss some thoughts on that either yay or nay if anyone wants. @Mesmerised made an interesting comment to me in a pm about that - feel free to elaborate if you care to, Mes. I wont be offended. Same with Beatle.
earlsmoviepicks
07-19-17, 09:44 AM
I myself subscribe to the "I Really Rather You Didn'ts" of the Church of the FSM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage_HD.jpg/1200px-Touched_by_His_Noodly_Appendage_HD.jpg
1. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Act Like a Sanctimonious Holier-Than-Thou Ass When Describing My Noodly Goodness. If Some People Don't Believe In Me, That's Okay. Really, I'm Not That Vain. Besides, This Isn't About Them So Don't Change The Subject.
2. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Use My Existence As A Means To Oppress, Subjugate, Punish, Eviscerate, And/Or, You Know, Be Mean To Others. I Don't Require Sacrifices, And Purity Is For Drinking Water, Not People.
3. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Judge People For The Way They Look, Or How They Dress, Or The Way They Talk, Or, Well, Just Play Nice, Okay? Oh, And Get This In Your Thick Heads: Woman = Person. Man = Person. Samey-Samey. One Is Not Better Than The Other, Unless We're Talking About Fashion And I'm Sorry, But I Gave That To Women And Some Guys Who Know The Difference Between Teal and Fuchsia.
4. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Indulge In Conduct That Offends Yourself, Or Your Willing, Consenting Partner Of Legal Age AND Mental Maturity. As For Anyone Who Might Object, I Think The Expression Is Go F*** Yourself, Unless They Find That Offensive In Which Case They Can Turn Off the TV For Once And Go For A Walk For A Change.
5. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Challenge The Bigoted, Misogynist, Hateful Ideas Of Others On An Empty Stomach. Eat, Then Go After The B******.
6. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Build Multimillion-Dollar Churches/Temples/Mosques/Shrines To My Noodly Goodness When The Money Could Be Better Spent (Take Your Pick):
A. Ending Poverty
B. Curing Diseases
C. Living In Peace, Loving With Passion, And Lowering The Cost Of Cable
I Might be a Complex-Carbohydrate Omniscient Being, But I Enjoy The Simple Things In Life. I Ought To Know. I AM the Creator.
7. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Go Around Telling People I Talk To You. You're Not That Interesting. Get Over Yourself. And I Told You To Love Your Fellow Man, Can't You Take A Hint?
8. I'd Really Rather You Didn't Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You If You Are Into, Um, Stuff That Uses A Lot of Leather/Lubricant/Las Vegas. If the Other Person Is Into It, However (Pursuant To #4), Then Have At It, Take Pictures, And For The Love Of Mike, Wear a CONDOM! Honestly, It's A Piece of Rubber. If I Didn't Want It To Feel Good When You Did It I Would Have Added Spikes, Or Something.
Still ruminating over the idea of lucifer being a woman. Toss some thoughts on that either yay or nay if anyone wants. @Mesmerised made an interesting comment to me in a pm about that - feel free to elaborate if you care to, Mes. I wont be offended. Same with @Beatle (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=88353).
Not a woman, i think. Venus, the Roman goddess of beauty, Dani. :)
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