View Full Version : United Airlines Incident
matt72582
04-13-17, 12:33 PM
I don't know how many of you have flown, but airlines always oversell flights because they assume a few will miss it, so they always sell more tickets than seats they have.
I'm glad this was on video, dragging a 70-yr old man...
I'm glad the attorney is talking about how we have to move away from barbarism.
I saw that yesterday and posted in news. I would hate to be on a plane and witness that.
matt72582
04-13-17, 08:35 PM
I saw that yesterday and posted in news. I would hate to be on a plane and witness that.
Me too. I've been on so many flights, but never remember even being given a chance to take another flight for _______... Someone today said they were just as surprised no one else stepped in (didn't surprise me)
cricket
04-13-17, 09:40 PM
I saw the video, pretty funny stuff. The guy is a mentally unstable weirdo. I don't know if they acted within their rights in having him removed, but if they were, it's going to come to force if the person doesn't comply.
Blix the Goblin
04-13-17, 09:44 PM
Isn't this the same airline that wouldn't let girls board a plane because they were wearing yoga pants or something?
Me too. I've been on so many flights, but never remember even being given a chance to take another flight for _______... Someone today said they were just as surprised no one else stepped in (didn't surprise me)
Last time I flew ground crew came over and asked everyone at check out if they'd like to take a flight the next day and they'd give them a hotel over night and a few hundred dollars in meal vouchers. I've never seen anyone dragged off a plane once boarded. Has to be more to this story than just dragging him off so employees can have a seat. I mean they also have to find his luggage and remove it.
cricket
04-13-17, 10:36 PM
Isn't this the same airline that wouldn't let girls board a plane because they were wearing yoga pants or something?
Now that's something I would sue over if I was another passenger.
Last time I flew ground crew came over and asked everyone at check out if they'd like to take a flight the next day and they'd give them a hotel over night and a few hundred dollars in meal vouchers. I've never seen anyone dragged off a plane once boarded. Has to be more to this story than just dragging him off so employees can have a seat. I mean they also have to find his luggage and remove it.
This guy was chosen legally to get off of the flight and he refused. You can't refuse. The police came and he still refused. If they tell you you're getting off that plane, then that's what's going to happen. If you don't like it, you see what action you can take after the fact, but fighting it is fruitless. I hope the guy gets nothing.
The Gunslinger45
04-13-17, 10:39 PM
United screwed up. And royally so. They overbooked the flight that is where their fault lies. But when the airport police tell you it is time to get off the plane, it is time to get of the plane. First they ask, then they tell. If neither works, they make. If you don't comply, you were given fair warning. That is where the Doctor when wrong. Especially when in the flight contract you can get kicked off flights for a large amount of bullsh!t reasons.
I can't comment on the use of force since I was not there and the angles are crappy and obstructed by airline seats. But how they hell did this guy manage to get back on the flight? These guys just had to scrap with the guy and drag him off the plane. Why was he not in some kind of restraint? Because when he went on the plane a second time he is now interfering with a flight crew. Which is a crime.Plus said Dr now has his own past on his conviction for exchanging prescription pills to a male patient for sex dragged up. Gotta love the media (the vultures).
So now United is in a PR tail spin, the doctor's private past is now in the New York Post and national news, the Doc is gonna sue, the incident is wall to wall in the media, and the net is now flooded with jokes and memes with not so clever puns involving Chinese take out. I got to visit a buddy of mine for his wedding in Florida in September. I think I will drive instead of fly.
Now that's something I would sue over if I was another passenger.
This guy was chosen legally to get off of the flight and he refused. You can't refuse. The police came and he still refused. If they tell you you're getting off that plane, then that's what's going to happen. If you don't like it, you see what action you can take after the fact, but fighting it is fruitless. I hope the guy gets nothing.
Did you see this part of my quote?
Has to be more to this story than just dragging him off so employees can have a seat. I mean they also have to find his luggage and remove it.
The Gunslinger45
04-13-17, 10:40 PM
Isn't this the same airline that wouldn't let girls board a plane because they were wearing yoga pants or something?
I have heard similar stories with inappropriate t-shirts. Then their was the whole Kevin Smith too fat to fly Southwest Deal.
I have heard similar stories with inappropriate t-shirts. Then their was the whole Kevin Smith too fat to fly Southwest Deal.
The kids wearing leggings were on freebie employee tickets and there's an employee dress code that's pretty strict. Funny thing is, their dad was wearing shorts but he was OK to fly on.
All rather bizarre. Dr Dao allegedly has concussion, a broken nose and two teeth knocked out. I would say that's pretty heavy handed just to get someone to vacate a seat.
cricket
04-13-17, 10:50 PM
Did you see this part of my quote?
Has to be more to this story than just dragging him off so employees can have a seat. I mean they also have to find his luggage and remove it.
Yea I get what you're saying, but this situation happens all the time. Airlines are legally allowed to overbook, so the passengers are chosen either voluntarily or involuntarily and then they go from there.
cricket
04-13-17, 10:52 PM
Dr Dao allegedly has concussion, a broken nose and two teeth knocked out. I would say that's pretty heavy handed just to get someone to vacate a seat.
Except he was resisting and you can't do that. They dragged him off; they didn't hit him. The video looks bad to a lot of people but I was impressed with the calm the officers showed.
Yea I get what you're saying, but this situation happens all the time. Airlines are legally allowed to overbook, so the passengers are chosen either voluntarily or involuntarily and then they go from there.
Yeh but I've just never seen someone dragged off a plane to vacate and I've been flying since last century. They're coerced with financial gain prior to check in.
Whatever happened, I feel bad for the people sitting in such a confined space who witnessed that. I think I would freak out. Enclosed spaces are not my favourite place to witness violence.
The Gunslinger45
04-13-17, 10:55 PM
The kids wearing leggings were on freebie employee tickets and there's an employee dress code that's pretty strict. Funny thing is, their dad was wearing shorts but he was OK to fly on.
All rather bizarre. Dr Dao allegedly has concussion, a broken nose and two teeth knocked out. I would say that's pretty heavy handed just to get someone to vacate a seat.
Well call me jaded but then don't fight the cops when they ask you to leave. It is not like they had many options. It is tight quarters.
But again, I can't tell if the force was excessive since I don't have good footage of the incident, and I have no idea if anyone was wearing a body camera.
cricket
04-13-17, 10:58 PM
Here's an eyewitness account that sheds a little more light-
https://youtu.be/ABvASy7L0U0
I don't think the guy even has a case. United will still settle just to save face with the crying and misguided public. The police who dragged him off didn't even work for the airline.
Well call me jaded but then don't fight the cops when they ask you to leave. It is not like they had many options. It is tight quarters. .
Hey you know my attitude to cops so I think you know I'm not pro criminals resisting them, but did he commit a criminal act or did he just refuse to vacate his seat? that's why I think there has to be more to the story.
cricket
04-13-17, 11:00 PM
Hey you know my attitude to cops so I think you know I'm not pro criminals resisting them, but did he commit a criminal act or did he just refuse to vacate his seat? that's why I think there has to be more to the story.
He just refused, but you can't refuse.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 12:00 AM
Well call me jaded but then don't fight the cops when they ask you to leave. It is not like they had many options. It is tight quarters. .
Hey you know my attitude to cops so I think you know I'm not pro criminals resisting them, but did he commit a criminal act or did he just refuse to vacate his seat? that's why I think there has to be more to the story.
I ain't worried about you. I am talking about the Doctor. Sorry if you think my cynicism was directed at you.
I have to edit this: I would assume he could be charged with a criminal trespass, but I don't know how CT works for aviation police.
I ain't worried about you. I am talking about the Doctor. Sorry if you think my cynicism was directed at you.
And yeah he can at least be charged with criminal trespass. If he is told to leave and he does not, cuffs go on.
I didnt think it was directed at me, champ. I'm just curious - do they pull a number out of a hat to decide who gets kicked off a flight? His wife was still on from what I read. And why not do this before check in? Seems a huge hassle to try to then find his luggage to remove it once he's on. Just seems simpler to me to wave the $1500 voucher or whatever it is at passengers before they board. And now the CEO has said he'll compensate every passenger.
Both sides of the story just seem iffy to me.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 12:13 AM
I have no idea how they do it. But from what they said in the news they said they used a computer to calculate who gets booted.
Hindsight being 20/20 they should have offered more cash and a free hotel.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 12:16 AM
Also, I just learned that that New York post piece might not be about the doctor on the United flight. Apparently the post possibly dug up dirt on another Doctor Who happen to have the same name. So now he has two possible lawsuits. LOL
Captain Steel
04-14-17, 12:16 AM
Now that I've got a little more information - I'm coming down on the side of the Dr.
You can't throw people off at random who've PAID for a ticket. Screw them! I don't blame the guy for refusing to get off. They gave him no rational reason that HE had to leave (like: we just found out you're infected with Ebola, you're drunk and disorderly, you're saying crazy things that are frightening the other passengers, you're refusing to comply with safety instructions).
No, it was, "Um... let's see... ummmm... YOU! You paid for a ticket? OFF THE PLANE! Oh, you don't wanna go? We'll just Rodney King you off!"
I hope he wins a really big lawsuit.
Overbooking is a ridiculous practice. I once had the same Seinfeld experience with a rent-a-car that ruined a vacation - they took reservations for more cars than they had and then just acted like - oh, that's what we do, and if no one cancels, then we run out of cars and even though you paid to reserve one, you're now out of luck. Oh, we just ruined your itinerary and you won't be able to get to places you already booked in advance because we screwed you out of a car? Gee, that's too bad.
Overbooking is a ridiculous practice. .
It is, and from what I've been told by people in the industry it's usually employees or industry people on freebie or cut price tickets that get the boot, not full paying customers. That's why I'm not buying either side of the story. Just doesnt seem right.
I once saw a guy dragged through an airport in handcuffs but he did something a bit more serious than not vacate his seat.
Doctor Who
LOL. Mofo film geek. Did you do that on purpose or was it a freudian slip?
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 12:34 AM
Doctor Who
LOL. Mofo film geek. Did you do that on purpose or was it a freudian slip?
No that is a Siri oops.
Captain Steel
04-14-17, 12:35 AM
This looks like a case of the cops breaking the law. You can't just remove and assault someone who's committed no crime, but is exactly where he is supposed to be and has legally paid to be there.
People might argue that the Dr. was resisting - but resisting what? He wasn't under arrest, he'd committed no crime. He was being illegally assaulted for no good reason. If someone tried to drag me from somewhere I had bought a ticket to be, I'd resist too.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 12:59 AM
Of course this is based off two points. The people who dragged him off the flight are cops and he fought back.
Captain Steel
04-14-17, 01:27 AM
Of course this is based off two points. The people who dragged him off the flight are cops and he fought back.
Cops' authority is limited. They can't just drag people for no reason. They can't come into your home and drag you out or come into a movie theater and drag you out if you've committed no crime, aren't suspected of a crime or aren't in some sort of physical danger.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 01:41 AM
So I dig a little digging. The Aviation Police are not full fledged Police. They do have arrest powers and the ability to detain, but Chicago PD does arrest reports.
However you look at it this was a colossal screwup.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 01:57 AM
Of course this is based off two points. The people who dragged him off the flight are cops and he fought back.
Cops' authority is limited. They can't just drag people for no reason. They can't come into your home and drag you out or come into a movie theater and drag you out if you've committed no crime, aren't suspected of a crime or aren't in some sort of physical danger.
Police can remove you from the premises if the property owner has asked for that person to be removed you refuse to do so. That is called criminal trespass. I am unfamiliar with the rules of how it applies to airplane. I just work off the Texas Penal Code. Once you were in your home however, then yes we cannot do that. But this man was not at his home.
And the issue is not whether or not he should have been removed. The airline already has the legal authority to have people removed from flights. And they have done so for a lot less. So United has every legal right to remove you from the plane. Now the reason is bs. Do not get me wrong. Overbooking is a BS practice. If you have X amount of seats on the flight, you sell that amount. You do not sell more than what you have.
The real issue is did the aviation Police have the authority, and did they use too much force.
I admit I did some digging. It seems aviation police are barely a step up above security officers. But they are not on the same page as city or county police officers. Chicago PD does their arrest reports for them. Now they can detain, and arrest, but within their general orders.
As I said, I won't comment on the force. I don't have enough from the footage that I saw. The angles are crap and I have too many airline seats in the way to see what the passenger and the police were doing.
As for authority, I have heard that they have been deputized since they work in a federal facility. But I do not know where that is spelled out in legal terms. And we know airlines can just kick you off.
Now the airlines deciding that they can remove you from the flight is legal. It is BS, but it is legal. Now according to their higher ups, they said they violated general orders. How much of this is true and how much of this is political covering their butts, I have no idea. At the very worst, The aviation Police needed to wait for a federal air marshal to have him removed. The man was going to get off the plane one where another. He should not have, but he was.
Captain Steel
04-14-17, 02:09 AM
Does anyone know if United asked for volunteers first, offering a compensation package?
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 02:12 AM
They did. They even offered hotels and cash. They got one taker.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 02:16 AM
Also how does an airline company not have a spare plane that could fly these guys? Or lease a charter plane? What were these employees jobs that made it so important they needed to bump off paying customers? Also apparently the doctor had his wife with him. How does this lottery work? Do they take into account families? And how exactly does it work?
Also how does an airline company not have a spare plane that could fly these guys? Or lease a charter plane? What were these employees jobs that made it so important they needed to bump off paying customers? Also apparently the doctor had his wife with him. How does this lottery work? Do they take into account families? And how exactly does it work?
Or couldnt the employees simply wait for the next flight and the vouchers could be offered at check in? Surely it wasnt the only flight that day.
The Gunslinger45
04-14-17, 02:57 AM
Also how does an airline company not have a spare plane that could fly these guys? Or lease a charter plane? What were these employees jobs that made it so important they needed to bump off paying customers? Also apparently the doctor had his wife with him. How does this lottery work? Do they take into account families? And how exactly does it work?
Or couldnt the employees simply wait for the next flight and the vouchers could be offered at check in? Surely it wasnt the only flight that day.
No clue. Either way law suits will be had.
No clue. Either way law suits will be had.
Getting worse. I just saw a second video taken by the passenger sitting behind him where he is clearly heard saying he wasnt getting off the plane because he had to be at work at 8am the next day. And here's the kicker - the 'employees' dont even work for United but another airline.
Ohhhh this is not looking good for United.
Edit to add it's not looking good for Daily Fail either for defaming him. I hope he sues them s well.
matt72582
04-14-17, 11:14 AM
United just wants to sell 400 tickets on a 390-seat plane... Ok, fine, they screwed up, but why make the situation worse? Why not carry the guy? He looked pretty small, 70 years old, dragging someone while bleeding seems barbaric.
Could you imagine "I sold my truck to three guys, they paid cash.. Could we get two volunteers to...."
christine
04-14-17, 12:09 PM
not defending the way the poor guy was treated, but if United needed to get staff to somewhere then they'd have to do it as staff shortages on planes have an extraordinary knock on effect across schedules and cause planes to be delayed and not be where they have to be next, thus causing stress for many more travellers. They definately should've thought further ahead and waited till the boarding gate then asked for volunteers. If there was none, they should've kept upping their offer till there was. There will always be some people who will accept a price. Letting people on the plane and then asking for volunteers is ridiculous.
How did the guy get back on the plane and did he fly then?
Yes I understand that as well, Christine, but looking at it now, by trying to get 4 engineers to another airport at the very last minute resulting in this fiasco with Munoz making 3 apologies, with his story changing each time to cover his own butt and the fallout, it makes the brutality seem even worse. The guy is 69 years old and ended up in hospital. Wouldnt it have been cheaper (in retrospect ofcourse) to hire a limo for a 4 hour roadtrip or charter a plane or chopper? Now they're looking at over a billion dollars in stock drops in the first night after the incident, a possible law suit and you can bet your dollar his lawyer will scurry around like Saul Goodman for a class action suit for 'traumatised' passengers, and if not, compensation for them ll, whatever that will amount to. Just very badly handled. I've never flown United but I've never heard a good word about them from friends and family who hve either. They seem to have a really bad rep.
Captain Steel
04-14-17, 02:53 PM
Why do airlines engage in overbooking in the first place? I understand they don't want financial loses, but as far as I know, cancellations without enough advanced notice are not refundable anyway (is this correct?).
It happened to my mom years back - she was supposed to fly with my cousin to Florida, but was ill, she told my cousin she couldn't go a good week in advance, but my cousin said the seat was already paid for and the ticket non-refundable, so my mom was out $300. The airline profited and, with over a week's notice, probably doubled their money by selling that same seat to someone else.
Every seat must be considered held in reserve for every individual ticket holder.
I haven't traveled in a long time, but I was under the impression that there were usually people on "standby" at airports just waiting for cancellations to occur.
Munoz changed his mind about the overbooking to saying it was not overbooked but fully sold out (but that guy has lost all credibility so I take anything he says now with a grain of salt). I thought a certain number of seats were always kept vacant just incase crew had to fly at the last minute, and if not by the time of boarding those seats were allocated to paying standby passengers. Maybe that just happens here, though. Also, Munoz said Dr Dao was asked to 'voluntarily vacate', and he refused. Seems to me if he was asked to volunteer he was well within his rights to refuse.
We went through this with Delta at Sydney airport, but it was at check in, not once seated, and they kept upping the compensation until passengers volunteered. Much more civilised than dragging an older gent off a plane with his shirt up around his bloodied face. How demoralising.
gandalf26
04-14-17, 03:57 PM
Guy should be happy, he just won the lottery.
earlsmoviepicks
04-14-17, 04:54 PM
I missed a United connecting flight in Chicago due to weather (it arrived 3 minutes before the connection was scheduled to take off and they didn't wait, bastards). Weather delay means you pay for your own hotel, but they did give me a four dollar meal voucher, sports that they are.
I missed a United connecting flight in Chicago due to weather (it arrived 3 minutes before the connection was scheduled to take off and they didn't wait, bastards). Weather delay means you pay for your own hotel, but they did give me a four dollar meal voucher, sports that they are.
Ripped off. I got grounded in Manilla due to a typhoon and I got a five star hotel and vouchers for meals and booze for 2 days. I didnt even have to ask. ehehehe.
Captain Steel
04-14-17, 06:15 PM
Guy should be happy, he just won the lottery.
It's funny, I kept thinking, "Why can't something like this happen to me?"
It reminds me of the older guy in Office Space, about to lose his job, who gets hit by a truck and ends up happy as a pig in slop because due to his personal injury lawsuits, he's now set for life and never has to work again.
It's funny, I kept thinking, "Why can't something like this happen to me?"
It reminds me of the older guy in Office Space, about to lose his job, who gets hit by a truck and ends up happy as a pig in slop because due to his personal injury lawsuits, he's now set for life and never has to work again.
The difference is, Dr Dao hs a healthy bank account from gambling nd he's 69 so what's he going to do with millions (if he ends up with that). His wife is a doctor and so are his 4 kids. I think the psychological and physical trauma for a chap of his age, not to mention the defamation of character, is way beyond a bankload of money.
And re bumping passengers from US Dept Transportation
Overbooking
Overbooking is not illegal, and most airlines overbook their scheduled flights to a certain extent in order to compensate for "no-shows." Passengers are sometimes left behind or "bumped" as a result. When an oversale occurs, the Department of Transportation (DOT) requires airlines to ask people who aren't in a hurry to give up their seats voluntarily, in exchange for compensation. Those passengers bumped against their will are, with a few exceptions, entitled to compensation.
Voluntary Bumping
Almost any planeload of airline passengers includes some people with urgent travel needs and others who may be more concerned about the cost of their tickets than about getting to their destination on time. DOT rules require airlines to seek out people who are willing to give up their seats for compensation before bumping anyone involuntarily. Here's how this works. At the check-in or boarding area, airline employees will look for volunteers when it appears that the flight has been oversold. If you're not in a rush to arrive at your next destination, you can give your reservation back to the airline in exchange for compensation and a later flight.
I think the fur will hit the fan.
Captain Steel
04-14-17, 06:28 PM
The difference is, Dr Dao hs a healthy bank account from gambling nd he's 69 so what's he going to do with millions (if he ends up with that). His wife is a doctor and so are his 4 kids. I think the psychological and physical trauma for a chap of his age, not to mention the defamation of character, is way beyond a bankload of money.
And re bumping passengers from US Dept Transportation
I think the fur will hit the fan.
Yeah, too bad it didn't happen to a poor person who could really use the lawsuit winfall.
But seriously I hope the fur does hit the fan - not one thing was done correctly in this incident (neither on an ethical or legal level).
This is why I could never be a cop because I'd immediately turn to the other cops and say, "I don't see this man posing a threat nor in imminent danger - what crime is he accused of before I utilize force to remove him from a plane that he legally purchased a ticket to be on?"
Yeah, too bad it didn't happen to a poor person who could really use the lawsuit winfall.
But seriously I hope the fur does hit the fan - not one thing was done correctly in this incident (neither on an ethical or legal level).
If there's a class action, and I'll bet my last dollar there will be (but I;m just assuming) maybe less privileged will get a winfall. From the videos I saw the passengers were pretty damn angry so I wouldnt blame them for suing. And the other thing is, apparently when the 4 crew members boarded they were booed all the way. How fit for work would you be the next day.
Obviously I wasnt there so dont know if that's 100% accurate, but still. Gotta feel for them if it's true. It wasnt their fault.
The whole thing is mess.
gandalf26
04-14-17, 07:30 PM
It's funny, I kept thinking, "Why can't something like this happen to me?"
It reminds me of the older guy in Office Space, about to lose his job, who gets hit by a truck and ends up happy as a pig in slop because due to his personal injury lawsuits, he's now set for life and never has to work again.
Yeah the irony, guy refuses to get off plane cause he has work the next day, gets dragged off plane and now he never has to work again :)
Dao’s lawyer, Thomas Demetrio, said United added insult to injury by also losing his client’s luggage.
Oh man, can this incident get any worse for UAL! Talk about a balls up from Go to Whoa.
I dont know if anyone has brought this up but I've been mulling over it - how does a little 69 year old man with concussion (and possibly in shock) escape from burly aviation police to run back onto the plane? Were they playing cards or something?
Oh dear. Looks like United is in trouble again.
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