Star Trek: Discovery

[Captain Steel]

So, much talk about the upcoming "Star Trek: Discovery."
I'm just hoping they don't use the ship that we've seen in some previews (a saucer with a giant triangle attached to it). The awfulness of this ship's look could rival that of the Enterprise in Next Generation!

[Captain Steel]

If this is the actual ship, it is frighteningly bad looking.

I like simplicity, but this design is just too geometric and uncomfortable to look at. It lacks any sense of "personality."
And is it my imagination or is the triangle supposed to resemble the Federation logo (the "A" worn on original crew member's shirts) worked into the design?

https://images.follownews.com/2723/2723302/star-trek-discovery-ship-design-is-not-finalized_1.jpg

It almost looks like a hybrid between the Federation ships (the saucer section) and the old Klingon battle cruisers - is that what it's supposed to be?

[Blix the Goblin]

I'm annoyed by the idea of another prequel. Did they learn nothing from Star Trek: Enterprise? We need to move forward, not backward. I'm also not sure how I feel about Sonequa Martin-Green, and the casting seems suspiciously like they're trying to one-up the diverse casts of previous Trek shows. Look boys, we got ourselves a twofer!

That said I am excited to see Rain Wilson play Harry Mudd. I've always been amused by that character, and Wilson's take could be really good.

[The Rodent]

Wait, this is another prequel?


I thought this was going to be set even further in the future?
The premise I read, whether I'm confusing this with some other new series... was that far in the future, war has been averted or is long done with... the Federation is now fat and lazy, and just doing exploration... The BORG are dead, and the Vulcans, Klingons et al are now all doing their own thing.
Then a new enemy arises and threatens the entire fat lazy galaxy.

[Blix the Goblin]

Wait, this is another prequel?


I thought this was going to be set even further in the future?
The premise I read, whether I'm confusing this with some other new series... was that far in the future, war has been averted or is long done with... the Federation is now fat and lazy, and just doing exploration... The BORG are dead, and the Vulcans, Klingons et al are now all doing their own thing.
Then a new enemy arises and threatens the entire fat lazy galaxy.That sounds far better than what we're getting. Discovery will be set a decade before TOS, if I'm not mistaken.

At the very least we can look forward to uniforms with miniskirts. Or we better, if they gyp me on the miniskirts I'm gonna be pissed.

[The Rodent]

Just done some reading... Enterprise and TOS are set 150 years apart, so they've binned that further-future idea in favour of having a bridge series between Enterprise and TOS.
Probably looking at the half way mark tbh, around 75 years after Enterprise and 75 years before TOS.

[Captain Steel]

Someone please tell me that the reports that say THIS is the design for the ship are wrong.
(Is this ghastly or what?)

https://19818-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/546/08/mcquarrie.jpg

[Citizen Rules]

I read that Star Trek Discovery, is a prequel set 10 years before the original Star Trek TV series. I'm guessing the ship is suppose to look more primitive than USS Enterprise NCC-1701 in STtos.

They never listen to my idea. I want a prequel set on the Enterprise with a young Captain Pike and a young Mr Spock as second officer. That's what I what.

[The Rodent]

I read that Star Trek Discovery, is a prequel set 10 years before the original Star Trek TV series. I'm guessing the ship is suppose to look more primitive than USS Enterprise NCC-1701 in STtos.

They never listen to my idea. I want a prequel set on the Enterprise with a young Captain Pike and a young Mr Spock as second officer. That's what I what.



:laugh::rotfl::laugh::rotfl::laugh::rotfl::laugh::rotfl:


Your wish is my star command...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyJszxnJydA

[Citizen Rules]

:laugh::rotfl::laugh::rotfl::laugh::rotfl::laugh::rotfl:


Your wish is my star command...


https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder576/72062576.jpg

[The Rodent]

Double trailer feature...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWD_9uMtHJo

[gbgoodies]

If this is the actual ship, it is frighteningly bad looking.

I like simplicity, but this design is just too geometric and uncomfortable to look at. It lacks any sense of "personality."
And is it my imagination or is the triangle supposed to resemble the Federation logo (the "A" worn on original crew member's shirts) worked into the design?

https://images.follownews.com/2723/2723302/star-trek-discovery-ship-design-is-not-finalized_1.jpg

It almost looks like a hybrid between the Federation ships (the saucer section) and the old Klingon battle cruisers - is that what it's supposed to be?

Someone please tell me that the reports that say THIS is the design for the ship are wrong.
(Is this ghastly or what?)

https://19818-presscdn-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/546/08/mcquarrie.jpg


That ship looks hideous, especially in the second image. Hopefully it will get destroyed early in the series, and we'll get a better looking ship.

[gbgoodies]

I'm annoyed by the idea of another prequel. Did they learn nothing from Star Trek: Enterprise? We need to move forward, not backward. I'm also not sure how I feel about Sonequa Martin-Green, and the casting seems suspiciously like they're trying to one-up the diverse casts of previous Trek shows. Look boys, we got ourselves a twofer!

That said I am excited to see Rain Wilson play Harry Mudd. I've always been amused by that character, and Wilson's take could be really good.


I have no idea who Sonequa Martin-Green is, and I don't think I've seen Rain Wilson in anything, but I'm looking forward to seeing Harry Mudd again. He was a great character.

[gbgoodies]

Double trailer feature...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWD_9uMtHJo


The second trailer said "COMING TO CBS ALL ACCESS" at the beginning of the trailer, (at about 1:30 into the video). Is that a pay channel, or the normal CBS channel?

[The Rodent]

Rainn Wilson is a decent actor tbh... he can be really funny as well.
He was lead role in Super (2010) and played, funnily enough, one of the aliens in Trek parody Galaxy Quest.

[The Rodent]

Not sure if it's a pay channel tbh... I don't watch TV any more at all these days.

[The Rodent]

Update... just checked... you have to pay for CBS All Access.
$5.99 a month.

[gbgoodies]

Rainn Wilson is a decent actor tbh... he can be really funny as well.
He was lead role in Super (2010) and played, funnily enough, one of the aliens in Trek parody Galaxy Quest.


Thanks. I haven't seen Super, but it's on my watchlist because Nathan Fillion is in it. I've seen Galaxy Quest many times, so I'll have to look up who Rainn Wilson played in that movie. Apparently I have seen him in something, but I just don't know who he is, so I don't recognize him.

[gbgoodies]

Update... just checked... you have to pay for CBS All Access.
$5.99 a month.


That sucks. I guess I'll have to wait for it to be released on DVD. :(

[dadgumblah]

Gbg, Rainn Wilson was also Dwight on the American version of The Office and was awesome on that show.

I hate the idea of another prequel. I liked Enterprise quite a bit but I hated the fact that they changed the origin (with an explanation) of the first meeting of Earthlings and Klingons, and, in the same episode, the first contact with Vulcans (again with an explanation). They didn't just change it wholesale without explaining but it griped me that it took away some of the awesomeness of the meeting of Humans and Vulcans in Star Trek: First Contact.

I, too, hate the design of that ship. Plus, I think the writers are going into the past because it's easier to pick up on known characters earlier in their lives than to make up new characters (although, apparently the new crew will all be new characters).

Gbg, Sonequa Martin-Green played Sasha on The Walking Dead. The season finale was her last episode, where she turned zombie and pretty much fooled nobody because her starring role on the new Star Trek was announced way in advance of the season finale of TWD. This is her:

http://www.pkbaseline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/tumblr_inline_nw42uqBVIU1qgp297_500.jpg

And lastly, I'm not going to pay anything for any new series, no matter how bad I want to see it. I pay enough for cable and buy DVDs and go to the cinema when I can. I'm sick of things like Netflix, Amazon, etc. so CBS All Access can kiss it! :mad:

[The Rodent]

^^ I don't pay for TV at all anymore.
I binned my licenses and removed the cables from the back of the telly... I occasionally check the online EPG to see if I've been missing anything decent, and guess what... there's nothing being broadcast that's worth spending the standard £30 a month on...

[gbgoodies]

Gbg, Rainn Wilson was also Dwight on the American version of The Office and was awesome on that show.


Gbg, Sonequa Martin-Green played Sasha on The Walking Dead. The season finale was her last episode, where she turned zombie and pretty much fooled nobody because her starring role on the new Star Trek was announced way in advance of the season finale of TWD. This is her:

http://www.pkbaseline.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/tumblr_inline_nw42uqBVIU1qgp297_500.jpg



Thanks for the info.

I don't watch "The Office" or "The Walking Dead", so I haven't seen either of them in those shows. I guess I'll figure out who they are when I eventually see the new "Star Trek" series.

[Citizen Rules]

^^ I don't pay for TV at all anymore.
... Me neither, I don't even have TV service, so I won't be watching the new Star Trek anytime soon. Oh well :indifferent:

[Captain Steel]

I hate the idea of another prequel. I liked Enterprise quite a bit but I hated the fact that they changed the origin (with an explanation) of the first meeting of Earthlings and Klingons, and, in the same episode, the first contact with Vulcans (again with an explanation). They didn't just change it wholesale without explaining but it griped me that it took away some of the awesomeness of the meeting of Humans and Vulcans in Star Trek: First Contact.

I, too, hate the design of that ship. Plus, I think the writers are going into the past because it's easier to pick up on known characters earlier in their lives than to make up new characters (although, apparently the new crew will all be new characters).

And lastly, I'm not going to pay anything for any new series, no matter how bad I want to see it. I pay enough for cable and buy DVDs and go to the cinema when I can. I'm sick of things like Netflix, Amazon, etc. so CBS All Access can kiss it! :mad:

I feel the same way. Now that I've found out it's going to be on a special pay-extra channel, I've kind of lost interest.

I knew ST First Contact was a retcon of Roddenberry's continuity - they made Zephram Cochrane an Earthling instead of an Alpha Centurian and made our fist contact with the Vulcans instead of the Alpha Centurians. I knew Enterprise took off with that retconned continuity, but I didn't know that they retconned it even further at that point.

[dadgumblah]

I knew ST First Contact was a retcon of Roddenberry's continuity - they made Zephram Cochrane an Earthling instead of an Alpha Centurian and made our fist contact with the Vulcans instead of the Alpha Centurians. I knew Enterprise took off with that retconned continuity, but I didn't know that they retconned it even further at that point.

See, I had forgotten Cochrane was supposed to be an Alpha Centurian instead of an Earthling. All I remember is the original series having him be stranded on that planet with "The Companion" who "blended" with the sick Federation diplomat, thereby healing her but also giving Cochrane a human/Companion blended love. I'm not sure but I think he chose to stay on that planet for the diplomat's sake, because if the Companion left her, she would die and he didn't want that. At least that's the way I remember it. I wasn't too bothered that they changed Cochrane or his story in Star Trek: First Contact because the movie, IMO, was so very good. I just went with it. And Star Trek: Enterprise kept up with ST:FC, with Cochrane (James Cromwell) appearing in the very first episode. Star Trek: Enterprise was supposed to have its namesake ship be the first Warp 5 capability. We'll see if they have this new, clunky-looking ship have more than that, thus retconning it even more.

[TheUsualSuspect]

I hope this show is successful, just so it means I have steady work for the next few years.

[Citizen Rules]

See, I had forgotten Cochrane was supposed to be an Alpha Centurian instead of an Earthling. All I remember is the original series having him be stranded on that planet with "The Companion" who "blended" with the sick Federation diplomat, thereby healing her but also giving Cochrane a human/Companion blended love. I'm not sure but I think he chose to stay on that planet for the diplomat's sake, because if the Companion left her, she would die and he didn't want that. At least that's the way I remember it.. That's how I remember it too. I don't remember him being an Alpha Centurian either. He might have said something about being on Alpha Centura but it seemed he was presented as a human.

[Captain Steel]

That's how I remember it too. I don't remember him being an Alpha Centurian either. He might have said something about being on Alpha Centura but it seemed he was presented as a human.

I have a little more back-up on this stuff - a little book called Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology:
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/3/35/Star_Trek_Spaceflight_Chronology.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081009005852&path-prefix=en

It came out around the time that ST-TMP did. It is based on Roddenberry's framework for the future he'd created. And it chronicles from the earliest (real life) NASA & Soviet space satellites to beyond the years of The Motion Picture.

It includes all major alien contacts - such as Earth's first. It was our long-range sub-light-speed ship that reached Alpha Centauri first. Earth's technology helped fill in some missing parts of Chocrane's theories that were based on decades of Centaurian experimentation. Long story short, not long after Alpha Centauri's first contact with humans, Warp Drive was developed and the return trip to Earth with Centauri envoys was much quicker. And Cochrane did appear human as all Centaurians were human looking with the only differences being higher foreheads and smaller pinky fingers.

According to the book, Earth's second contact was in deep space with the Vulcans after we were using the Centaurian-based Warp Drive.

[dadgumblah]

I hope this show is successful, just so it means I have steady work for the next few years.

What do you mean, Suspect?

[Citizen Rules]

I have a little more back-up on this stuff - a little book called Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology:
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/memoryalpha/images/3/35/Star_Trek_Spaceflight_Chronology.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081009005852&path-prefix=en

It came out around the time that ST-TMP did. It is based on Roddenberry's framework for the future he'd created. And it chronicles from the earliest (real life) NASA & Soviet space satellites to beyond the years of The Motion Picture.

It includes all major alien contacts - such as Earth's first. It was our long-range sub-light-speed ship that reached Alpha Centauri first. Earth's technology helped fill in some missing parts of Chocrane's theories that were based on decades of Centaurian experimentation. Long story short, not long after Alpha Centauri's first contact with humans, Warp Drive was developed and the return trip to Earth with Centauri envoys was much quicker. And Cochrane did appear human as all Centaurians were human looking with the only differences being higher foreheads and smaller pinky fingers.

According to the book, Earth's second contact was in deep space with the Vulcans after we were using the Centaurian-based Warp Drive. Thanks for posting that, unfortunately dinner is waiting for me, but I will get back to this and read it tomorrow. I also want to look at the original transcript and will post what I can find.

[TheUsualSuspect]

What do you mean, Suspect?

We are supplying the crew with the gear for this show.

[Citizen Rules]

Transcript of ST Metamorphosis (http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/31.htm)

So I read the transcript:

KIRK: Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri, the discoverer of the space warp?
SPOCK: But you will age, both of you. There will be no immortality. You'll both grow old here and finally die.
COCHRANE: That's been happening to men and women for a long time. I've got the feeling it's one of the pleasanter things about being human, as long as you grow old together.
----------------------
I always thought that Cochrane was a human who lived on Alpha Centuri in the same way that humans lived on the Martian colonies. It seemed to me that the show made him out to be human. Well that's my take.

[Captain Steel]

Transcript of ST Metamorphosis (http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/31.htm)

So I read the transcript:

KIRK: Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri, the discoverer of the space warp?
SPOCK: But you will age, both of you. There will be no immortality. You'll both grow old here and finally die.
COCHRANE: That's been happening to men and women for a long time. I've got the feeling it's one of the pleasanter things about being human, as long as you grow old together.
----------------------
I always thought that Cochrane was a human who lived on Alpha Centuri in the same way that humans lived on the Martian colonies. It seemed to me that the show made him out to be human. Well that's my take.




Nope. It was ST First Contact (1996) that officially retconned Star Trek forever.

It was a great movie as far as action & story goes (probably the best of the Next Generation films), but I didn't appreciate that they retconned the ST universe right after Gene Roddenberry died - when he wasn't around to object.

Roddenberry had come up with the somewhat more realistic idea that we gained warp drive from a slightly more advanced alien civilization (the one existing within the stellar system that is our closest neighbor) than inventing it ourselves within just a couple centuries from now.

I never followed Enterprise closely, but I do know they ran with the retcon (that Earthlings developed warp drive and first contact was with the Vulcans) as they even had James Cromwell on the show as the now human version of Zefram Cochran.

[Citizen Rules]

We are talking about different things, or more precisely different reference points. I was referencing what was or wasn't said about Cochrane in the original series. The original series (to me) would be the first source of canon, with the movies taking second place in validity.

[Captain Steel]

We are talking about different things, or more precisely different reference points. I was referencing what was or wasn't said about Cochrane in the original series. The original series (to me) would be the first source of canon, with the movies taking second place in validity.

Understood - according to the transcript they just said "of Alpha Centauri" without going into the details of the history. So, it could be taken a number of ways.

But the way it was intended was based on Roddenberry's rather complex fictional history - that people from Alpha Centauri were humanoid-looking aliens who developed warp drive and who were Earth's first contact - but by us venturing to their home first on a ship named the Icarus that could achieve .75 the speed of light using an "antimatter-spiked deuterium" fusion engine in the year 2048. There, it was the native Cochran who worked with Earth scientists to piece together the missing gaps in warp drive technology which would be brought back and shared with Earth in 2054.
The first contact with Vulcans, btw, was a warp-drive Earth ship responding to a damaged Vulcan vessel sending out an S.O.S. in 2065.

Unfortunately, much of the history Roddenberry created is not documented in detail anywhere on the TV series (as far as I know) but only in a few rare books.

[Citizen Rules]

I'm not making a ban pun, when I say I believe in 'death of the author'. I'm sure you know that literary term.

As far I'm concerned, what is said in the Star Trek TV shows, is first source for canon. The movies would be second source, unless they're JJ Abrams, then they count for naught.

Anything Rodenberry might have said or wrote before or after the TV shows and movies is interesting but would not figure as canon to me. Thus the 'death of the author'...In other words his opinion of what he envisioned for his ST universe, takes a back seat to what I gleam from watching the TV series and movies (sans JJ)

[Captain Steel]

I'm not making a ban pun, when I say I believe in 'death of the author'. I'm sure you know that literary term.

As far I'm concerned, what is said in the ST TV shows, is first source for canon. The movies would be second source, unless they're JJ Abrams, then they count for naught.

Anything Rodenberry might have said or wrote before or after the TV shows and movies is interesting but would not figure as canon to me. Thus the 'death of the author'. In other words his opinion of what he envisioned for his ST universe, takes a back seat to what I gleam from watching the TV series and movies (sans JJ)

Yes, well the TV series was his vision - and Cochran was an Alpha Centurian - an alien to Earth.

Probably due to time constraints they just didn't provide all the details of Roddenberry's history and boiled it down to one sentence, "Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri, the discoverer of the space warp?" I don't think their intention was to leave it open to interpretation so someone could make a movie about Cochrane 28 years later, just that they didn't take time to run down the whole history of warp drive on the TV show.

Then, people like the authors of the ST Spaceflight Chronology (Trekkies, I assume) produced books to fill in the gaps that weren't covered in the TV show. There is an acknowledgement of Roddenberry and various people communicating his ideas in the book's opening. I'm only reporting what this book said - and that it was based on Roddenberry's outlines and the TV series.

[Captain Steel]

Also, the First Contact movie obviously alters the character of Cochrane from the TV show - I don't remember either well enough to go into detail, but I think Cochrane is originally shown as a relatively young man, who we are told is "of Alpha Centauri and the inventor of warp drive" is trapped on a planet with the alien energy being that sustains him, and he remains there with the energy being inhabiting the body of the lady from Father Knows Best?

While in the movie he's an older, alcoholic man from Earth whose story has no mention of Alpha Centauri or of ending up living on a planet with an a alien energy being.

[Citizen Rules]

Yes, well the TV series was his vision - and Cochran was an Alpha Centurian - an alien to Earth.
But, I don't believe ST Metamorphosis showed Cochran as an alien from Alpha Centuria. I believe he was being presented as a human. Latter reinforced by Star Trek: First Contact. So that's what I believe and nothing will change my mind.

[gbgoodies]

Also, the First Contact movie obviously alters the character of Cochrane from the TV show - I don't remember either well enough to go into detail, but I think Cochrane is originally shown as a relatively young man, who we are told is "of Alpha Centauri and the inventor of warp drive" is trapped on a planet with the alien energy being that sustains him, and he remains there with the energy being inhabiting the body of the lady from Father Knows Best?

While in the movie he's an older, alcoholic man from Earth whose story has no mention of Alpha Centauri or of ending up living on a planet with an a alien energy being.

But, I don't believe ST Metamorphosis showed Cochran as an alien from Alpha Centuria. I believe he was being presented as a human. Latter reinforced by Star Trek: First Contact. So that's what I believe and nothing will change my mind.


In the episode "Metamorphosis", when Kirk and the others find out who he is, Kirk asks him if he is Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri, and the inventor of the Warp Drive, and says that Cochrane has been missing for over 150 years. Cochrane tells them that he was 87 years old when The Companion brought him there, and The Companion "regenerated" him. That's why he looks so young in the episode, but older in the movie First Contact.

The episode doesn't specifically say whether he was born on Earth and went to Alpha Centauri, or if he was actually from Alpha Centauri, but he appears to be human in the episode, and if I remember correctly, near the end of the episode, when Cochrane chooses to stay with The Companion, Spock calls him "an irrational human being".

[Captain Steel]

Hey, I'm telling you guys I have a book written 17 years before First Contact that says Cochran was an alien on Alpha Centauri who invented warp drive, and completed it after conferring with scientists from the Earth ship Icarus. This book was based on Roddenberry's writings, while the retcon in First Contact was done right after he died. It's the first major retconning of original ST continuity that I know of. (...and then there was... Abrams.)

[dadgumblah]

Roddenberry was great for creating the world of Star Trek. I remember something to the effect that the original series was not quite what he envisioned because he wanted all humans to get along and be at peace with each other. This he intended for ST: The Next Generation and he got his way for a while, resulting in some pretty dull episodes for the first season, where only outside forces made the humans aboard the Enterprise-D oppose each other, like the episode The Naked Now where the crew encountered the same virus/disease? that the original Enterprise crew had encountered in The Naked Time. Plus, they always had Wesley Crusher saving the ship or coming up with an idea that would solve things. Roddenberry admitted that he based Crusher on himself. A lot of fans hated Wesley but, because of an episode where they encounter an alien called "The Traveler," the crew, especially Captain Picard, is urged by The Traveler to encourage Wesley because he "is special." It wasn't till years later, I think after Roddenberry's passing, that a final season episode of NG revealed that Wesley was actually a Traveler, despite having human parents. Whether this was a late-term tribute to Roddenberry or not, I don't know, but it "seemed" to tie this episode to the first season episode.

All this is to say that Roddenberry wanted a show where everybody got along. Someone behind the scenes on the show said, "it's a wonderful idea but it makes for boring television. Drama, by definition, is achieved by conflict, which Roddenberry didn't want among the crew." So, the first season, for the most part, was, except for a handful of episodes IMO, kind of boring. The last two episodes, especially "Conspiracy," were very good. "Conspiracy" even had Picard and Riker blowing off the head of an alien-infected man! Then they shot the creature that emerged from the corpse of the officer. I remember going, "Wow! I can't believe it!" This episode was like day and night compared to the episodes that had preceded it.

I think this might have begun the gradual pushing-aside of Roddenberry. I know it didn't happen immediately but little-by-little there started to be more drama and better and better episodes. Season Two was a bit better and by Season Three I was in love with the new series and followed the other series faithfully. I went from hating Picard at first to loving the character and putting him even with Kirk in my mind. But within that series Roddenberry basically had the show taken away from him. Despite anything Rick Berman (who took over the controls of the show and the Trek universe at large) would say about continuing Roddenberry's vision, the shows and the films belied that train of thought. There was drama, humans fought each other, fought aliens, things blew up, and most people were entertained.

That might have been the green-light to retcon certain ideas and canon of the show. I don't know for sure, but this is what I believe. So, expecting to be entertained, I've stuck with the shows and movies, good and bad, that is till now. Star Trek: Discovery will have to fly without me, at least until it's DVD time.

[Sedai]

Watched both episodes of this last night. I was not a fan.

[Captain Steel]

Watched both episodes of this last night. I was not a fan.

What was it like?
Was the ship as ugly as it appears?

[Sedai]

The production/sound design was excellent. Acting was good. My main issues were political. They basically crapped all over Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek while dropping anvils on my head about the issues of 2017. So much for escapism and entertainment.

RIP Star Trek

[Citizen Rules]

The production/sound design was excellent. Acting was good. My main issues were political. They basically crapped all over Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek while dropping anvils on my head about the issues of 2017. So much for escapism and entertainment.

RIP Star TrekI haven't seen it and don't have much hope for it. So can you explain a bit how ST Discovery went against Roddenbery's original Star Trek vision? I'm just curious, as I'm a big fan of the original, pre Abrams stuff and just wonder how bad it is?

[Sedai]

It's tough to go into specifics without heading into spoiler territory. Read ahead at your own risk. I will try to keep things as vague as possible.

They sort of had one character standing up for old school Star Trek ideals, then set another character against that character that represented a more aggressive stance, to say the least. In the process, they deconstructed the ideology of past shows and films, labeled it as ineffective, and promoted pretty much straight up collectivist militarism as the solution. Star Trek came close to this in the past, but one or more characters would push back with a strong moral center about maintaining diplomatic options and peaceful approaches, using military might and violence as a last resort. Older Trek shows (especially Voyager) promoted strong individuality as a critical component of a healthy society, even if they were also promoting sort of a fantastical pseudo-socialism in which economics wasn't necessary and everyone in the federation lived under their benevolent galactic nanny government. They did this basically by using magic tech that can probably never exist (replicators, transporters) that easily solved the two biggest issues of socialism, so it was all in good fun and it worked.

This show portrays individuality as corrupt and wrong, with the alien race that fights for freedom and individuality (specifically stated in so many words on the show) basically being nazi racial purists. Conflating nazis with the basic ideas of freedom is horse ****, and is firmly rooted in the negative rhetoric being thrown around today at people who support freedom of speech and individual liberty.

I have recently been watching some Deep Space 9, which is excellent. Sadly, the show seems almost conservative when compared to this new iteration. I will stick with DS9.

[Captain Steel]

The production/sound design was excellent. Acting was good. My main issues were political. They basically crapped all over Roddenberry's vision for Star Trek while dropping anvils on my head about the issues of 2017. So much for escapism and entertainment.

RIP Star Trek

I heard there was a scene where crewmembers take a knee during the Federation anthem of allegiance!

[Sedai]

I heard there was a scene where crewmembers take a knee during the Federation anthem of allegiance!

Lulz!

Not sure I caught that, but I did read that cast did indeed take a knee in support of the NFL after the premier.

[Citizen Rules]

@Sedai (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=3422), thanks for going into detail about ST Discovery. I might catch it some time in the future, and I'll probably be properly pissed at it:p

DSN is a favorite of mine, are you watching it in order from the beginning? If so the show really finds it's own self after season 3, and continues to get better and better, each season. I love the way the later seasons delve into long story arches and character development.

[Sedai]

@Sedai (http://www.movieforums.com/community/member.php?u=3422), thanks for going into detail about ST Discovery. I might catch it some time in the future, and I'll probably be properly pissed at it:p

DSN is a favorite of mine, are you watching it in order from the beginning? If so the show really finds it's own self after season 3, and continues to get better and better, each season. I love the way the later seasons delve into long story arches and character development.

Yea, funny thing... I have seen all of the original series multiple times, all of TNG multiple times, Voyager a couple of times...but I had never really gotten into DS9. The idea of a space station setting at the time just didn't appeal to me. Alas, it may end up being the best of the bunch. I started it at the beginning and I think I am just about near the end of season 3.

[TheUsualSuspect]

Isn't everyone in agreement that the series should have explored further down the timeline? What happens after Deep Space 9 or Voyager. Don't people already know the outcome of the current issues?

[Yoda]

Was pretty excited early on, and even mixed reviews wouldn't have dissuaded me from watching if Fuller were still at the helm...but since he isn't, I'll probably skip it unless I hear very good things later.

[iank]

Isn't everyone in agreement that the series should have explored further down the timeline? What happens after Deep Space 9 or Voyager. Don't people already know the outcome of the current issues?

Everyone except the execs, it seems. :rolleyes:

[gbgoodies]

I was looking forward to the new Star Trek series until I heard it was going to be on CBS All Access, and I was going to have to pay extra to watch it. I pay enough for cable TV now. I'm not going to pay extra just for one series.

I DVRed the first episode that aired on their standard CBS network, but I haven't watched it yet because I don't want to get attached to it. Unless the reviews are that it's the best Star Trek show ever, it'll have to wait until it's available on DVD, and probably on a Black Friday sale.

[Captain Steel]

This is interesting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBb0hyuIfYQ

[dadgumblah]

Wow, that sounds like total caca! Well, there goes the eventual DVD purchase. Totally going against everything Star Trek stood for. I've been getting into TOS lately and it's so supremely entertaining. I can't say I'd be unhappy if this new series got canned. Sounds like the bias has gone completely through the roof. Thanks for posting, Captain!

[TheUsualSuspect]

This is interesting...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBb0hyuIfYQ

I couldn't finish the video because the guy was annoying.

[Captain Steel]

Should The Orville have its own thread for discussion?
(Since some are saying it is a better homage to Star Trek than Discovery? Although reviews are mixed: many critics dislike it, while Trek fans are saying it is highly enjoyable.)

http://cdn1.thr.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/scale_crop_768_433/2017/05/Orville_group_build_ss12_hires2H2017.jpg

[Captain Steel]

So, anyone else enjoying The Orville?

I'm currently watching "Mirror, Mirror" of Star Trek the original series.

If I may engage my inner Trekkie, I've got this theory... in the episode "City On the Edge of Forever," after travelling back in time to find Dr. McCoy, Spock explains that if they save the life of Kirk's newly met love interest of the 1930's, Edith Keeler (Joan Collins), it will indirectly lead to a series of events that would cause the Axis powers to win WWII and cast Earth into a savage, militaristic future.
My theory is that the alternate dimension in Mirror Mirror is the savage militaristic future that occurred in a timeline where Kirk (or McCoy) saved Edith Keeler from being killed by a truck. It makes so much sense.

Have others come up with this theory before?

[gbgoodies]

So, anyone else enjoying The Orville?

I've been watching "The Orville", and I love it. I read that it was already renewed for a second season. :)

I can't compare it to "Star Trek: Discovery" because I haven't been watching that show. When it airs on a channel that I already pay for in my current cable bill, then I'll watch it, but I'm not paying extra to see it.


I'm currently watching "Mirror, Mirror" of Star Trek the original series.

If I may engage my inner Trekkie, I've got this theory... in the episode "City On the Edge of Forever," after travelling back in time to find Dr. McCoy, Spock explains that if they save the life of Kirk's newly met love interest of the 1930's, Edith Keeler (Joan Collins), it will indirectly lead to a series of events that would cause the Axis powers to win WWII and cast Earth into a savage, militaristic future.
My theory is that the alternate dimension in Mirror Mirror is the savage militaristic future that occurred in a timeline where Kirk (or McCoy) saved Edith Keeler from being killed by a truck. It makes so much sense.

Have others come up with this theory before?

I never thought about that theory, but it kind of makes sense. I guess we're lucky that Capt. Kirk stopped Dr. McCoy from saving her, but I like Spock with a beard. He's great in any timeline. :)

[Captain Steel]

I've been watching "The Orville", and I love it. I read that it was already renewed for a second season. :)

I can't compare it to "Star Trek: Discovery" because I haven't been watching that show. When it airs on a channel that I already pay for in my current cable bill, then I'll watch it, but I'm not paying extra to see it.




I never thought about that theory, but it kind of makes sense. I guess we're lucky that Capt. Kirk stopped Dr. McCoy from saving her, but I like Spock with a beard. He's great in any timeline. :)

Thanks for responding, GBG!

I'm not sure why I like The Orville so much - I would say it's nostalgia as it harkens back heavily to Star Trek TNG (but I was never a huge TNG fan compared to my feelings toward the original series). I guess I was surprised that The Orville is producing some decent sci-fi stories. At first I thought it was just going to be "Family Guy in Space" but it's not. And some of the early criticisms were apt - like it can't decide what it wants to be; a comedy or a sci-fi adventure series, but it seems to be feeling it's way into a better balance (although some of the comedy seems out of place - especially when they keep making 21st century references that no one would get in 400 years.)

I also have never seen ST Discovery (don't have the channel or whatever you need to see it), but after the reviews, I don't really care to see it.

On the Mirror, Mirror theory - I know other media (books, comics, TV series) have expanded on the episode, so I don't know if those things would support my theory, but little things like the Nazi "sieg heil" type salute they use, could be leftover from the Nazis being one of the powers that won WWII (just as in the regular universe, various U.S. & British Naval standards are still used). The fact that the Federation is an Empire in the Mirror universe could be a leftover from the Japanese Empire (and maybe Earth conquered other planets in this universe, making them conquests of the Empire instead of allying with them and making them equal parts of the Federation). They might also have found kindred spirits with the Klingons (warlike, savage, militaristic) and combined their empire with them in the Mirror universe.

[gbgoodies]

Thanks for responding, GBG!

I'm not sure why I like The Orville so much - I would say it's nostalgia as it harkens back heavily to Star Trek TNG (but I was never a huge TNG fan compared to my feelings toward the original series). I guess I was surprised that The Orville is producing some decent sci-fi stories. At first I thought it was just going to be "Family Guy in Space" but it's not. And some of the early criticisms were apt - like it can't decide what it wants to be; a comedy or a sci-fi adventure series, but it seems to be feeling it's way into a better balance (although some of the comedy seems out of place - especially when they keep making 21st century references that no one would get in 400 years.)


I may have spoken a little bit too soon about "The Orville". Did you see the last episode? It had spiders in it. :eek:

I don't watch "Family Guy", so I had no expectations of "The Orville" being similar in any way, but it seems pretty obvious that Seth MacFarlane is a "Star Trek" fan. The show has the feeling of being a comedy version of "Star Trek" without losing any of the sci-fi and adventure.


I also have never seen ST Discovery (don't have the channel or whatever you need to see it), but after the reviews, I don't really care to see it.

On the Mirror, Mirror theory - I know other media (books, comics, TV series) have expanded on the episode, so I don't know if those things would support my theory, but little things like the Nazi "sieg heil" type salute they use, could be leftover from the Nazis being one of the powers that won WWII (just as in the regular universe, various U.S. & British Naval standards are still used). The fact that the Federation is an Empire in the Mirror universe could be a leftover from the Japanese Empire (and maybe Earth conquered other planets in this universe, making them conquests of the Empire instead of allying with them and making them equal parts of the Federation). They might also have found kindred spirits with the Klingons (warlike, savage, militaristic) and combined their empire with them in the Mirror universe.

I haven't read any of the "Star Trek" books in a long time, so I can't comment about them, but I can see the Edith Keeler storyline being the background for the "Mirror, Mirror" universe storyline, if Kirk had saved her.

[Captain Steel]

I found Star Trek Discovery in the On Demand menu under Prime Time Shows > CBS.

I started watching while trying to divorce myself from the many things I read / heard about the show. I've seen the 1st 4 episodes so far.

Warning: may contain SPOILERS:

I wasn't expecting the show to reference any of the other series until later on, but in the first episode Sarek shows up.
I didn't feel he seemed anything like Sarek from the other series & movies... he didn't even seem very Vulcan (a criticism I also had of some of the Vulcans on Enterprise).

We quickly come to learn main character Burnham was basically Spock's foster sister.

I had a hard time buying into Burnham's motivation for mutiny in the first episode as it just didn't seem Trek-like, or logical or representative of anything Star Trek ever stood for. (Somehow I doubt throwing the first punch at Klingons would result in anything except a counter punch from Klingons. So it seemed a flawed scenario at least to me. Indeed, it might gain Klingon's respect, but being Klingons it would most certainly also gain a counterstrike and a declaration of war.)

Ah, the Klingons. I will join in the criticism - the series changes most things about them, from their physical biology to their artistic styles to their ships.

Now, we understand why Klingons changed from TOS to ST-TMP: the TV show didn't have the budget for Roddenberry's vision of them. But as of TMP, we got an idea of what he WANTED Klingons to look like (with their spines extending over their heads). That look & their culture was built upon for decades, creating an extensive overview of who the Klingon's are, which firmly set their place in the ST universe.

I have no problem trying to improve on make-up, effects and such (Lord knows Mr. Worf needed improvement from his TNG season 1 make-up), but I don't understand the need to completely change the Klingons for a series that takes place between Enterprise and TOS.

I heard all about the SJW bent for Discovery, but I really haven't noticed it yet as being so blatant after the first 4 episodes - which is a good thing. But I will agree the series seems to lack the positive outlook of Trek (granted, this series takes place as war with the Klingons breaks out), or its lessons. So far I read some anti-war commentaries being made and lessons like don't judge a book by it's cover (such as with the Tardigrade... similar to TOS's Horta.)

Thoughts?

[Citizen Rules]

Discovery..I started watching while trying to divorce myself from the many things I read / heard about the show. I've seen the 1st 4 episodes so far.That's admirable, but wouldn't be easy for me to do as I've heard nothing but bad reviews about ST Discovery. Still I plan on trying to watch it someday and hopefully can find a place for it in my crowded ST mind:p


Ah, the Klingons. I will join in the criticism - the series changes most things about them, from their physical biology to their artistic styles to their ships.

Now, we understand why Klingons changed from TOS to ST-TMP: the TV show didn't have the budget for Roddenberry's vision of them. But as of TMP, we got an idea of what he WANTED Klingons to look like (with their spines extending over their heads). That look & their culture was built upon for decades, creating an extensive overview of who the Klingon's are, which firmly set their place in the ST universe.

Well that's disheartening to read. One of the things I loved most about TNG & DSN and Voyager were that they built up this complete Klingon culture and immersed us in it...and I feel so steeped in that idea of Klingon culture that I'd have a hard time with Discovery's new vision of them. It almost sounds like Discovery is more of a reboot than a continuation of the other ST series philosophy.

...I will agree the series seems to lack the positive outlook of Trek (granted, this series takes place as war with the Klingons breaks out)...I've read that complaint too that Discovery is too dark without the hope of a better tomorrow that the other ST series proclaimed. That also is how Picard the series seemed to me when I watched it (not Star Trek and too damn dark!).

[Captain Steel]

Well that's disheartening to read. One of the things I loved most about TNG & DSN and Voyager were that they built up this complete Klingon culture and immersed us in it...and I feel so steeped in that idea of Klingon culture that I'd have a hard time with Discovery's new vision of them. It almost sounds like Discovery is more of a reboot than a continuation of the other ST series philosophy.


I'm thinking this is one of the major things that turned ST fans off.

There was simply no need to change the Klingons so drastically - audiences loved the Klingons as they were, and more so as we got to see more of their warriors & culture.

And I don't buy the idea that this was just a natural production evolution (as compared to the TOS Klingons and those that came later) because we aren't decades between versions of Klingons.

Sure, maybe try to have the make-up look more realistic or have better effects, but not this. Actually, the make-up doesn't look better or more realistic at all - it looks like they are wearing masks (and when they speak Klingon, it SOUNDS like they are wearing masks).

Basically, they look like an entirely different species (and the show doesn't seem to offer any explanation as Enterprise did - that there are different races, off-shoots or biologically altered Klingons).

If they were going to change the adversaries so much, I wonder why they didn't just create a new alien race for Starfleet to battle = they could always add to ST canon with new aliens the way all the other series did without totally altering established ones. Or they could have just expanded on one of the many alien races shown in Enterprise (Discovery's predecessor) as many were discovered on that show.

I'm always ready to jump on anything (in a negative way) that is labeled as SJW - and from what I'd heard, Discovery allegedly hits the audience over the head with it. But I have to say (to the show's credit) I'm not really seeing it so far (maybe it comes on stronger in later episodes).

The special effects are top notch (with some beautiful color schemes), although the overall look of the ships (especially the Klingon ones) don't say Trek to me. Some of the Klingon ships look like they belong in Dune!

The uniforms look like they could be descendants of Enterprise's uniforms. (I've already seen "Captain Archer's" name on a screen so there are some nods to other series in the early episodes.)

My analysis so far: I'm a bit intrigued and I don't hate it as much as I expected to based on reviews. It's no where near as FUN as The Orville, of course, but I'll watch a few more.

[Citizen Rules]

Thanks Captain, An overtly SJW Star Trek Discovery doesn't interest me much. But keep us updated, I'm interested in reading your thoughts and I'll probably end up watching Discovery anyway. BTW are you watching the new season of The Orville?

[Captain Steel]

Thanks Captain, An overtly SJW Star Trek Discovery doesn't interest me much. But keep us updated, I'm interested in reading your thoughts and I'll probably end up watching Discovery anyway. BTW are you watching the new season of The Orville?

Sadly I don't have access to the Orville anymore (used to watch it on FOX).

Perhaps, as with Discovery, a network will pick it up for On Demand viewing in the future.

________

P.S. This is out there, but I revealed that the main character on Discovery ("Michael Burnham" - yes, she's a girl named Michael) was raised as Spock's foster sister.

We know from the very first episode she's a protégé of Sarek and she speaks of the human woman who took her in on the planet Vulcan named "Amanda" and how she was raised with Amanda's son - presumably Spock). But I wonder if Sybok might ever be reconnected (even though he's never really been mentioned in any ST canon since ST-V as far as I know.)

Someone who grew up in Spock's family might have known (or known of) Sybok! ;)

[gbgoodies]

My analysis so far: I'm a bit intrigued and I don't hate it as much as I expected to based on reviews. It's no where near as FUN as The Orville, of course, but I'll watch a few more.

I've seen a few episodes of season 1 of "Star Trek Discovery", and I agree with you that it's better than I expected, but it's not as good as "The Orville". I think one of the problems, (at least for me), is that I don't like Burnham, and most of the other characters aren't very likable either. If you think about it, are there any characters on "Discovery" that you would be upset if they killed off that character? (I can't think of any that I would miss.)


BTW are you watching the new season of The Orville?

Season 3 of "The Orville" hasn't aired yet. It was put on hiatus in 2019, then delayed by the pandemic in 2020. They started filming again in Dec 2020, but then they were put on hold again in January 2021 when the pandemic numbers started to rise again. The expected release date, (as of now), is sometime late in 2021.

https://www.thecinemaholic.com/the-orville-season-3-everything-we-know/

[Darth Wish]

I've watched all three series of Discovery and enjoyed them all.
It gets better and the tech improves too.

I also watched Picard and enjoyed that too.

I try not to compare the different series as all made in different decades and each has it's own style and merits.
Just enjoy them for what they are.

[gbgoodies]

I've watched all three series of Discovery and enjoyed them all.
It gets better and the tech improves too.

I also watched Picard and enjoyed that too.


I've only seen a few episodes of "Star Trek Discovery" so far, but it's nice to know that it gets better.

I haven't seen "Picard" yet, but I'm looking forward to it.


I try not to compare the different series as all made in different decades and each has it's own style and merits.
Just enjoy them for what they are.

I also try to watch each series as its own show, and not compare them to each other, but sometimes there are just too many similarities, (or sometimes copies), to ignore them. But I find that I seem to enjoy the new shows more if I just consider them as individual sci-fi shows, rather than specifically Star Trek shows.

[Captain Steel]

I've only seen a few episodes of "Star Trek Discovery" so far, but it's nice to know that it gets better.

I haven't seen "Picard" yet, but I'm looking forward to it.




I also try to watch each series as its own show, and not compare them to each other, but sometimes there are just too many similarities, (or sometimes copies), to ignore them. But I find that I seem to enjoy the new shows more if I just consider them as individual sci-fi shows, rather than specifically Star Trek shows.

I think I'm not disliking Discovery as much as I expected because I went in with a very skeptical attitude (based on everything I'd heard).

This happens a lot with me - especially with movies: when they are widely panned, I often think they are not as bad as I thought they'd be when I finally see them, but when they are hyped up & lauded as something spectacular, I usually wonder what all the hype was about.

[gbgoodies]

I think I'm not disliking Discovery as much as I expected because I went in with a very skeptical attitude (based on everything I'd heard).

This happens a lot with me - especially with movies: when they are widely panned, I often think they are not as bad as I thought they'd be when I finally see them, but when they are hyped up & lauded as something spectacular, I usually wonder what all the hype was about.


I tried to watch "Discovery" with an open mind. I had seen the first episode a few years ago because it aired on the regular (free) CBS network around the same time that the series started on CBS All Access (for a fee), but I didn't really care for it much, and I had no plans to pay to see it, so I never saw anything after the pilot episode.

But it's been airing on the regular (free) CBS network recently, (probably because their planned shows were delayed due to the pandemic), so I decided to give it another chance.

I still don't love it as much as I had hoped, but I think I like it better than I did the first time I saw it. That might be because I didn't remember much about it, except that I didn't really like it much the first time I saw it.

[Captain Steel]

There's word now that Star Trek Discovery may be erased from Star Trek canon!

https://cosmicbook.news/star-trek-discovery-erased-canon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLv9d1cZJPE

[Captain Steel]

As they say... Go woke, go broke.
(Or at least get erased from canon.) ;)

[gbgoodies]

There's word now that Star Trek Discovery may be erased from Star Trek canon!

https://cosmicbook.news/star-trek-discovery-erased-canon

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLv9d1cZJPE


I haven't seen Star Trek: Lower Decks, and I gave up on Star Trek: Discovery pretty early on, but I'm planning to go back and give it a second chance if I can ever find the time.

IMO, Star Trek: Strange New Worlds is easily the best of the recent Star Trek TV shows.