The Veg*nism Thread

[Omnizoa]

Hullo! I was surprised to find out that there are more than a couple people (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=46416) on veg*n diets around here so I decided to start a thread. There appears to be one other thread (http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?t=11487) on the topic, but it's literally 10 years old and I think I can frame it in a more straightforward and approachable manner.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26665&stc=1&d=1471538761


~ INTRODUCTION ~


This thread is for the discussion of topics related to veg*nism. Given it's divisive nature and the fact that it frequently drifts into the controversial realm of ethics, I welcome friendly debate and discussion. You've been warned, your positions are likely to be challenged so you'd best be prepared to defend them calmly and with mutual regard for intellectual honesty. If you can't do that, stay out of this thread.

What is NOT welcome is antagonistic comments like "I just ate a burger and it was SOOOOO GOOOOOD". You're just trolling and that doesn't move the discussion. Cut that sh*t out.

As for myself, I've been vegetarian my whole life, have been vegan for many years (I forget how long), and would even consider myself freegan insofar as people are capable of handling that sort of discussion.

Veggie newbs are probably going to see a lot of words they don't recognize or fully understand so below I'm going to list them and their popularly accepted definitions as well as some documentaries for reference if you would like to learn more.

~ LEXICON ~
Common Terminology:


Veg*n: Someone who is vegetarian or vegan.

Vegetarian: Someone who doesn't eat the meat or flesh of animals. This can be for moral, health, religious, or environmental reasons. Further reading >>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism)

Lacto-Vegetarian: Vegetarians who drink milk.
Ovo-Vegetarian: Vegetarians who eat eggs.

Animals: Anything that is taxonomically defined under the kingdom, Animalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal). This includes fish AND humans.

Non-Humans: Animals, excluding humans.

Vegan (dietary): Someone who doesn't eat animal products, this includes any food derived from animals including dairy (milk/cream/butter/cheese/mayo/eggs/etc). This can be for health, religious, or environmental reasons.

Vegan (ethical): Someone who doesn't consume animal products in any form, this includes anything produced through animal exploitation including food (honey/beeswax/etc), clothing (leather/wool/silk/etc), entertainment (zoos/riding/fighting/etc), scientific research, and pets. This is strictly for moral reasons. Veganism is traditionally defined as:

...a way of living that seeks to exclude, as far as possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals...Veganism is a form of vegetarianism. Further reading >>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganism)

Freegan: Someone who reduces waste by consuming products that have been discarded or are otherwise isolated from the chain of supply and demand. This can be for environmental or anti-consumerist reasons.

Freeganism is a form of veganism ("cheating" addressed here (http://freegan.info/what-is-a-freegan/freegan-philosophy/freeganism-and-animal-rights/are-freegans-vegan-cheaters/)). Further reading >>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeganism)

Carnist (meat eater): Someone who consumes non-human animal products and encourages acceptance of the consumption of non-human animal products. Further reading >>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnism)

Speciesism: A prejudicial bias in favor of the interests of one's own species at the expense of another. Compare racism and sexism. Carnism is a form of speciesism. Further reading >>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism)

Other Terminology:


Pescetarian: Someone who doesn't eat the meat or flesh of animals, but makes an exception for seafood. While lacto- and ovo-vegetarians are a permanent subject of debate, pescetarians ARE NOT vegetarians.
Fruitarian: Someone who only eats fruits with the possible exception of seeds or nuts.
Raw Foodist: Someone who only eats uncooked and unprocessed raw foods.
Plant-Based Person: Someone who only eats food derived from plants.
Veganarchist: A pretty cool person. Further reading >>> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veganarchism)

~ ARGUMENTS ~


Before you present any arguments against veg*nism, please check your questions here (http://www.veganaustralia.org.au/but_you_kill_ants). But You Kill Ants by John Waddell concisely addresses 101 of the most common arguments made against veg*nism. Your answer is almost certainly there.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26664&stc=1&d=1471538644

~ FOR YOUR INFORMATION ~


Here are a couple interesting facts to chew over:

+ These animals just died. (http://www.adaptt.org/killcounter.html)
+ Veg*ns are not synonymous with PETA (a lot of us hate PETA).
+ The most common health concern for veg*ns is Vitamin B12, not Protein.
+ Vegetarians commonly consume gelatin (some candies), rennet (some cheeses), and bone char (some sugars) which are produced by killing animals.
+ Vegans should avoid products with the following ingredients (* indicates there are limited exceptions): albumen, allantoin, bone char, bone phosphate, bonito, butter, cane sugar*, carmine, casein, cochineal, confectioner's glaze, cream, dashi*, diglycerides*, elastin, emu oil, gelatin, honey, inosinate, isinglass, keratin, l-cysteine, lactic acid*, lanolin, lard, leather, monoglycerides*, prawn, rennet*, retinol*, shellac, silk, sodium tallowate, squalene, suede, tallow, whey, wool, and yellow grease. This list is subject to change.

~ PODCASTS ~


Gary Francione's Abolitionist Approach (http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/category/podcast/)
Colleen Patrick-Goudreau's Food For Thought (https://soundcloud.com/colleen-patrick-goudreau)

~ DOCUMENTARIES ~
(Click to watch on YouTube)


https://image.tmdb.org/t/p/w185_and_h278_bestv2/7s0gH9Yor9Uk3ccSB5kjfCfvRsp.jpg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ykTH_b-cXyE)https://image.tmdb.org/t/p/w185_and_h278_bestv2/kzkdywJI65RlOat1it9Z2fx9ZSv.jpg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zJD4iGOgVp0)https://image.tmdb.org/t/p/w185_and_h278_bestv2/5C1xprcv2Dl3zZ0HTkeXhfLVoU5.jpg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mqT82oGeax0)

(I know there are other documentaries on the subject, I will expand the list as I see them.)

Related: Sam Harris on the Science of Morality (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sTKf5cCm-9g)

[jiraffejustin]

I could go for a steak right about now.

[Swan]

Why'd you link to a PETA documentary?

[Omnizoa]

Why'd you link to a PETA documentary?
Because PETA is not entirely without merit.

[Swan]

If you say so, but it does alienate people who will potentially bite at what you have to say, like me. I can't stand PETA.

[Sexy Celebrity]

If you say so, but it does alienate people who will potentially bite at what you have to say, like me. I can't stand PETA.

What????? You actually hate something?

[Swan]

Surprising, I know.

[Miss Vicky]

Vegan (ethical): Someone who doesn't consume animal products in any form, this includes anything produced through animal exploitation including food (honey/beeswax/etc), clothing (leather/wool/silk/etc), entertainment (zoos/circuses/fighting/etc), scientific research, and pets. This is strictly for moral reasons.


And the keeping of pets is inherently unethical because... ?

[Pussy Galore]

I'd like to make a distinction that is clear for those in the department of philosophy, but not to most vegan and I think it solidifies even more our position.

There is an important distinction between environmental ethics and animal ethics.

The first considers species, the well being of the eco system and is indifferent toward the individual animal death, it doesn't say it is good to kill animal, it just doesn't answer that question because it is not the subject of environmental ethics

The second considers individual animal death, it argues for the immorality not for the planet, but for the act itself of inflincting pain or death toward an other sentient being.

I think both environmental ethics and anmal ethics have VERY compeling arguments, but lets say that for a reason I ignore you think animals don't have any moral consideration because I admit ethics isn't scientific, it's not a fact (even though I'm pretty sure defending such a claim would lead to inconsistencies toward other moral judgment). Then you would still have to answer to environmental ethics that bases itself on facts.

The only way you can answer environmental ethics (the fact that factury farming is terrible for the planet) is
A) that you hunt all your meat
B) that you admit the fact it's bad for the planet, but that we have no obligation to respect the planet (which would be hard to defend)

Also, for those who reject animal ethics there are no obligations to be 100% vegan since it's not for the animals that you do it, but for the planet. However, since factory farming hurts the environment massively there is a need to reduce all animal products, not to be a strict vegan, but to tend toward that ideal.

[Omnizoa]

If you say so, but it does alienate people who will potentially bite at what you have to say, like me. I can't stand PETA.
I can't stand Hitler, but he was a better artist than most people.

[Pussy Galore]

And the keeping of pets is inherently unethical because... ?

Personally I don't have any ethical problem with having pets, but I'm a consequentialist I judge morality with the consequences. And I'd say that the live of a cat is better with a loving ''master'' I don't like this term, I consider my cat to be more of a friend then anything else, then in a shelter.

People who have a problem with it would probably say that it is wrong that a sentient being is the property of an other one.

[jiraffejustin]

Well at least you compared PETA to Hitler so I didn't have to.

[Omnizoa]

And the keeping of pets is inherently unethical because... ?
Conceptually, if the term "pet", to you, is an actual companion and not the practical equivalent of a slave or table lamp, then it isn't, the term does carry that baggage though which you should be aware of.

As far as the INDUSTRY is concerned, I'm sure you can imagine the issues involved with financially supporting puppy mills and exotic pet shops.

lets say that for a reason I ignore you think animals don't have any moral consideration because I admit ethics isn't scientific, it's not a fact
Which, incidentally, I would contest. Besides which I largely agree.

[Swan]

I don't consider myself the "master" of my cat, and don't consider him my "property". He's someone my family gave a home to, and we feed and love him. He basically does whatever the hell he wants, too.

Not sure why anyone would consider that a bad thing.

[donniedarko]

Why do you censor vegan?

[Omnizoa]

Why do you censor vegan?
The * is just a wildcard indicating I could be referring to vegans or vegetarians.

[Topsy]

Im a vegetarian! Would love to become a vegan but right now im finding it hard enough to find food for vegetarians there just not a whole lot out there yet (atleast here) unless you make the from scratch youreself,and i cant cook.

Also the reason im vegetarian is because of the animals- giving up meat was alot easier than i thought actually,

[Omnizoa]

Im a vegetarian! Would love to become a vegan but right now im finding it hard enough to find food for vegetarians there just not a whole lot out there yet (atleast here) unless you make the from scratch youreself,and i cant cook.
I can't cook for ****.

I can boil water. And I've figured out how to make vegan pancakes, but that's about the extent of my skillset. Just shop smart.

[Pussy Galore]

If you hate beans and tofu it's not that easy man haha.

[Citizen Rules]

..I welcome friendly debate and discussion. You've been warned, your positions are likely to be challenged so you'd best be prepared to defend them calmly and with mutual regard for intellectual honesty. If you can't do that, stay out of this thread... :rolleyes:Coming from Mr Argumentative;), that's down right funny. I guess you never heard of the golden rule? OK whatever, carry on.

[Omnizoa]

If you hate beans and tofu it's not that easy man haha.
As much as I like burritos, I must admit I don't generally eat beans.

For sake of contrast here, I'm vegan and people tend to assume my entire diet is a pile of lettuce, tofu, and vitamin supplements.

In reality, I don't like most vegetables, I don't like tofu, and I don't take vitamin supplements unless I'm sick.

*returns to pasta*

[Pussy Galore]

What do you eat on a regular basis?

[Omnizoa]

:rolleyes:Coming from Mr Argumentative;), that's down right funny. I guess you never heard of the golden rule? OK whatever, carry on.
I will continue to patiently wait for you to cite your criticisms. Until then, quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

[Miss Vicky]

Conceptually, if the term "pet", to you, is an actual companion and not the practical equivalent of a slave or table lamp, then it isn't, the term does carry that baggage though which you should be aware of.

As far as the INDUSTRY is concerned, I'm sure you can imagine the issues involved with financially supporting puppy mills and exotic pet shops.

I suppose some people associate that "baggage" with pet ownership and certainly I've seen that attitude in pet owners many times - people who get pets to serve a specific purpose (such as hunting or protection) or as a status symbol or a cool accessory - but I feel like that's not the prevailing attitude. Or at least it doesn't seem to be in America and other first world countries. For every pet owner I've met that views their animals as disposable, there are a dozen more that view theirs as members of the family.

From a legal standpoint, my animals are essentially slaves. But from my perspective a more accurate comparison would be surrogate or adopted children. I love them. I provide them with shelter, food, and medical care. I took them in from bad situations. My oldest cat was a sickly kitten that came from a group of neglected, inbred, semi-feral barn cats. My younger one was adopted from the county shelter (which is not a no-kill facility). My rats were bred by someone as food for her reptile collection. In return I get love and companionship from them.

[Yoda]

:rolleyes:Coming from Mr Argumentative;), that's down right funny. I guess you never heard of the golden rule? OK whatever, carry on.
He's specifically inviting argumentation, so I'm not sure what's funny about it. He's just asking people not to troll or engage in drive-by assertions.

[Omnizoa]

What do you eat on a regular basis?
A bunch of stuff.

Pasta, cereal, fruit, PBJ, ramen, pindi chana/chana masala, hummus, burritos, rice w/ veggies, ummmm... I mentioned vegan pancakes (which I make myself), chips and salsa... lotsa snacks like Chex Mix and whatnot. Erm... can't think of much else offhand, I'm sure there's more.

Oh yeah, if I can find veggie dogs I like that in a sandwich with pickles. Good road trip food.

[Omnizoa]

I suppose some people associate that "baggage" with pet ownership and certainly I've seen that attitude in pet owners many times - people who get pets to serve a specific purpose (such as hunting or protection) or as a status symbol or a cool accessory - but I feel like that's not the prevailing attitude. Or at least it doesn't seem to be in America and other first world countries. For every pet owner I've met that views their animals as disposable, there are a dozen more that view theirs as members of the family.

From a legal standpoint, my animals are essentially slaves. But from my perspective a more accurate comparison would be surrogate or adopted children. I love them. I provide them with shelter, food, and medical care. I took them in from bad situations. My oldest cat was a sickly kitten that came from a group of neglected, inbred, semi-feral barn cats. My younger one was adopted from the county shelter (which is not a no-kill facility). My rats were bred by someone as food for her reptile collection. In return I get love and companionship from them.
That sounds all fine, but I would certainly call into question the assessment that "loving families" outnumber the opposition by a factor of 12.

You put anyone on the spot and ask what they think about X cute and cuddly animal and they'll be gracious, but that's not truly indicative of how they treat that animal in regards to how they treat other humans.

Which reminds me, forgot to define "speciesism".

[Sexy Celebrity]

Omnizoa, this is what Miss Vicky does to her cats:

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/RalphandFelix/santjasp2015.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/RalphandFelix/santtiny2015.jpg

Her rats get mistreated, too:

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/RattieGirl/valstone.jpg

Report her to PETA immediately!

[Topsy]

http://www.halsanskok.se/custom_images/packshots/kebab.png

idont know if y`all have this brand where you live,but this is by far the best ive ever tasted of vegetarian food! really good! Also their hot dogs.

[Miss Vicky]

That sounds all fine, but I would certainly call into question the assessment that "loving families" outnumber the opposition by a factor of 12.

Well I'm speaking from my 15 years of experience in dealing with pet owners as an employee of veterinary clinics and seeing what people are willing to sacrifice for their animals. This also includes two years working at a clinic that had a contract with the local animal control to treat any sick or injured animals that were picked up in the county.

Of course on the flip side, this experience also showed me time and time again the sort of people who ask to have their animals killed because they're moving, or because they're having a baby, or because the animal isn't as young and spry as it used to be, or because of a correctable behavioral issue. It also showed me the type of people that wait until their animal is at death's door before they bother to seek medical care for it. And the kind of people who view animals as a source of income - breeding them over and over again whilst cutting corners on proper husbandry for both the breeding stock and their offspring so that they can maximize profit.

Still, the number of people I've encountered who genuinely care about their animals far outnumber those who don't.

[donniedarko]

If you have a Whole Foods by you get there Vegan choclate chip cookies. Best choclate chip ever

[Omnizoa]

Omnizoa, this is what Miss Vicky does to her cats:

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/RalphandFelix/santjasp2015.jpgIt's not something I support, but in the grand scheme of things it's not far off forcing your child into a baby diaper commercial.

http://www.halsanskok.se/custom_images/packshots/kebab.png

idont know if y`all have this brand where you live,but this is by far the best ive ever tasted of vegetarian food! really good! Also their hot dogs.Never heard of those.

Well I'm speaking from my 15 years of experience in dealing with pet owners as an employee of veterinary clinics and seeing what people are willing to sacrifice for their animals. This also includes two years working at a clinic that had a contract with the local animal control to treat any sick or injured animals that were picked up in the county.

Of course on the flip side, this experience also showed me time and time again the sort of people who ask to have their animals killed because they're moving, or because they're having a baby, or because the animal isn't as young and spry as it used to be, or because of a correctable behavioral issue. It also showed me the type of people that wait until their animal is at death's door before they bother to seek medical care for it. And the kind of people who view animals as a source of income - breeding them over and over again whilst cutting corners on proper husbandry for both the breeding stock and their offspring so that they can maximize profit.

Still, the number of people I've encountered who genuinely care about their animals far outnumber those who don't.
I would say your experience slightly tends to bias since it excludes people who don't bring animals to vets at all (enough people think their pets aren't worth the cost to heal when it can be replaced that it's a frequent staple in television comedies), but it is at the very least an informed bias, much moreso than to what most can attest.

[Miss Vicky]

Omnizoa, this is what Miss Vicky does to her cats:

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/RalphandFelix/santjasp2015.jpg

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/RalphandFelix/santtiny2015.jpg

Yes, because putting a cat in a costume for all of about 2 minutes while I snap a photo and then reward them with petting and treats is such abhorrent cruelty.

Her rats get mistreated, too:

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/walteregan/RattieGirl/valstone.jpg



Rats are naturally inquisitive animals that seem to enjoy examining and exploring the various props in the tableaus I construct, especially since I scatter treats among the props.

I would say your experience slightly tends to bias since it excludes people who don't bring animals to vets at all.

Except that this statement discounts the numerous phone calls from people asking for free advice on home remedies because they don't want to spend any money.

[Omnizoa]

Except that this statement discounts the numerous phone calls from people asking for free advice on home remedies because they don't want to spend any money.
Not necessarily, you're only sampling a fraction of a population in a fraction of the world with wildly different cultures and attitudes towards what animals are and aren't okay to eat.

Consider how many people take fish to the vet.
Consider how many people consider their aquariums just decorations.
Consider how many people CONSTANTLY contest that fish aren't animals.

[jiraffejustin]

I've never heard anyone say that fish aren't animals.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Humans are animals and they have to be enforced to go through sh*t that's probably way worse than anything other animals have to endure.

[NedStark09]

No offense too anyone's diet for todays foods far meats go need monitoring and I dont per say enjoy the killing of animals but my overall opinion is and how we were raised was. You never know what one may have too eat too survive. Some poor people diet is what they can buy and feed the family. I think omnivour is best way to live and eat because you can eat meat but it can be fish and turkey or chicken. I think everyone needs protein and a balanced diet. I know allot about Vegan eating and my feeling is that one day some vegan will want meat craving so badly he snaps and goes on a murder rampage.

[seanc]

I sure am glad no meat eaters have gone on a murderous rampage. Can you imagine?

[Miss Vicky]

Not necessarily, you're only sampling a fraction of a population in a fraction of the world with wildly different cultures and attitudes towards what animals are and aren't okay to eat.

I did qualify my statements by saying that they relate to America and other first world countries.

Consider how many people take fish to the vet.
Consider how many people consider their aquariums just decorations.
Consider how many people CONSTANTLY contest that fish aren't animals.

Well to be fair, very few veterinarians will treat fish. Taking a fish to the vet means locating a specialist and being able to afford the cost. Most aquarists treat fish and aquatic invertabrate illnesses at home. The aquarium hobby is a time consuming and expensive endeavor. Those who are serious about it most definitely do not consider their tanks to be just decorations.

But yes, a lot of people unfortunately do see fish as disposable and a lot of people do have the misconception that only mammals and birds qualify as animals.

Still none of this to me points to the keeping of pets as being inherently immoral. It's immoral to disregard the physical and mental well being of a pet. It's immoral to regard them as disposable, but I don't think simply keeping an animal as a pet is automatically immoral as some vegans believe it to be.

[MovieMeditation]

No offense too anyone's diet for todays foods far meats go need monitoring and I dont per say enjoy the killing of animals but my overall opinion is and how we were raised was. You never know what one may have too eat too survive. Some poor people diet is what they can buy and feed the family. I think omnivour is best way to live and eat because you can eat meat but it can be fish and turkey or chicken. I think everyone needs protein and a balanced diet. I know allot about Vegan eating and my feeling is that one day some vegan will want meat craving so badly he snaps and goes on a murder rampage.
http://imgur.com/HJzbF.gif

[Miss Vicky]

I've never heard anyone say that fish aren't animals.

I've heard it many times. Especially when I was a vegetarian. "You're a vegetarian? So you still eat fish, right?"

:facepalm:

[Sexy Celebrity]

I sure am glad no meat eaters have gone on a murderous rampage. Can you imagine?

Vegans don't kill people?

[jiraffejustin]

I've heard it many times. Especially when I was a vegetarian. "You're a vegetarian? So you still eat fish, right?"

:facepalm:

I run into dumb people, but never anyone that dumb.

[Omnizoa]

I've never heard anyone say that fish aren't animals.
I've heard it for years.

Humans are animals and they have to be enforced to go through sh*t that's probably way worse than anything other animals have to endure.
I will strongly contest that.

No offense too anyone's diet for todays foods far meats go need monitoring and I dont per say enjoy the killing of animals but my overall opinion is and how we were raised was.
How you were raised is relative. What you think is a healthy diet in your country is totally different in another.

You never know what one may have too eat too survive.
Let's not dance around the infamous desert island scenario and actually ask it.

Some poor people diet is what they can buy and feed the family.
The claim that meat is cheaper than the plants that are used to produce it is a complete myth.

I think omnivour is best way to live and eat because you can eat meat but it can be fish and turkey or chicken.
It can be tooth-rotting soda too, but if you WANT the salmonella...

I think everyone needs protein and a balanced diet.
Balanced insofar as the food pyramid has deceptively lead us to believe.

I know allot about Vegan eating
If that were true you wouldn't have mentioned protein.

and my feeling is that one day some vegan will want meat craving so badly he snaps and goes on a murder rampage.
*bursts out laughing* Damn... he's onto me.

[NedStark09]

I sure am glad no meat eaters have gone on a murderous rampage. Can you imagine?
Last I was aware a mans diet did not change the fact people go in all branches of military service and are learned too kill. But also if a person eats meat and decided s hey i want to be a vegan and eat special pancakes because now milk and egg pancakes are bad things. Why does a person need vegan Dairy diet stuff for. Just because it comes from a cow does not make it bad for you . I dont think a Serloin steak and pancakes should be in the same bad diet eating club.

[seanc]

I run into dumb people, but never anyone that dumb.

It was pretty common for people who considered themselves vegetarians to still eat fish. I agree it doesn't make sense but it doesn't surprise me people would ask about it because it wasn't uncommon. Omni even hinted at it with his definitions in the first post.

[cricket]

I love animals and I eat meat every day. I don't know what that means but that's all I've got.

[Miss Vicky]

Last I was aware a mans diet did not change the fact people go in all branches of military service and are learned too kill.

Dude, what?

Why does a person need vegan Dairy diet stuff for. Just because it comes from a cow does not make it bad for you . I dont think a Serloin steak and pancakes should be in the same bad diet eating club.

https://media.giphy.com/media/6mnp45e41uzZe/giphy.gif

[seanc]

Vegans don't kill people?

For a guy with a pretty good sense of humor, you never get my sarcasm. I was responding sarcastically to Ned's post.

[jiraffejustin]

I'm not sure what's happening, but I am glad Ned Stark came to town.

[MovieMeditation]

Last I was aware a mans diet did not change the fact people go in all branches of military service and are learned too kill. But also if a person eats meat and decided s hey i want to be a vegan and eat special pancakes because now milk and egg pancakes are bad things. Why does a person need vegan Dairy diet stuff for. Just because it comes from a cow does not make it bad for you . I dont think a Serloin steak and pancakes should be in the same bad diet eating club.
You said you knew a lot about the vegan diet. But this answer... bruh... I don't think you can come further away from knowing anything about veganism or just any diet for that matter.

The more you reply, the more ridiculous you seem to become. I seriously don't know if you are an advanced troll or just an advanced type of stupid.

[NedStark09]

I've heard it for years.


I will strongly contest that.


How you were raised is relative. What you think is a healthy diet in your country is totally different in another.


Let's not dance around the infamous desert island scenario and actually ask it.


The claim that meat is cheaper than the plants that are used to produce it is a complete myth.


It can be tooth-rotting soda too, but if you WANT the salmonella...


Balanced insofar as the food pyramid has deceptively lead us to believe.


If that were true you wouldn't have mentioned protein.


*bursts out laughing* Damn... he's onto me.
Why even make a veggie burger if your are not craving a real burger anyways. Seems like if i were to swear off bad meat that i would avoid a food with the word burger in it.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I will strongly contest that.

Dogs and cats just have to lay around all day. They don't have to go to school. They don't have to go to work. They don't have to make money and buy food and buy clothes, drive, waste time on Movie Forums, etc.

Humans have it better than animals? In some ways, maybe. In a bigger sense, I don't think they do. Animals can always be animals, but humans have always gotta act a certain way, or else they're treated like animals.

See a stray dog outside? Someone takes it in and gives it food and a bed. See a homeless person outside? Someone bolts the doors.

[Swan]

I love animals and I eat meat every day. I don't know what that means but that's all I've got.

Seconded.

[Omnizoa]

Still none of this to me points to the keeping of pets as being inherently immoral. It's immoral to disregard the physical and mental well being of a pet. It's immoral to regard them as disposable, but I don't think simply keeping an animal as a pet is automatically immoral as some vegans believe it to be.
Despite niggles, naturally including spaying/neutering, I think we're in agreement. "Pet" just has pejorative connotations to me.

http://imgur.com/HJzbF.gif
*snort*

I've heard it many times. Especially when I was a vegetarian. "You're a vegetarian? So you still eat fish, right?"

:facepalm:
It is always a facepalm moment.

Why does a person need vegan Dairy diet stuff for. Just because it comes from a cow does not make it bad for you .
Insofar as morality is concerned, no that doesn't make it bad for you.

Insofar as HEALTH is concerned, enjoy your pus milk.

[Sexy Celebrity]

You pat yourself on the back for bringing in a wounded little bird.

Go outside and bring in a homeless man. Give him a bed, give him food, take pictures of him, etc. Put it in that "Brought Somebody Home" thread of yours. That'll be interesting. That'll really be something.

[Miss Vicky]

Insofar as morality is concerned, no that doesn't make it bad for you.

I'd say that's debatable, depending on where your dairy is coming from. Same goes for eggs.

[Omnizoa]

Why even make a veggie burger if your are not craving a real burger anyways. Seems like if i were to swear off bad meat that i would avoid a food with the word burger in it.
You'll have to distinguish what "bad meat" means, but I'm not sure you can.

Dogs and cats just have to lay around all day. They don't have to go to school. They don't have to go to work. They don't have to make money and buy food and buy clothes, drive, waste time on Movie Forums, etc.

Humans have it better than animals? In some ways, maybe. In a bigger sense, I don't think they do. Animals can always be animals, but humans have always gotta act a certain way, or else they're treated like animals.

See a stray dog outside? Someone takes it in and gives it food and a bed. See a homeless person outside? Someone bolts the doors.
Please watch the first video I posted and reconsider.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I have seen what happens in slaughterhouses.

[CosmicRunaway]

I don't consider myself the "master" of my cat, and don't consider him my "property".
Let's be honest here: cats are usually the masters. You don't train a pet cat, a cat trains you to be its slave.

Full Disclosure: I love cats more than I love my family.

[MovieMeditation]

Why even make a veggie burger if your are not craving a real burger anyways. Seems like if i were to swear off bad meat that i would avoid a food with the word burger in it.
First he seemed to totally misunderstand dieting and veg*nism in particular. Now simple cooking cuisine seems to go over his head^^

EXPAND YOUR MIND MAN. So a burger, to you, is just like, the Big Mac or what? The concept of the burger doesn't go further than that in your mind or?

I'm heading to bed. I can feel this sh*t will get heated if I don't leave...... i just can't.

[Swan]

Let's be honest here: cats are usually the masters. You don't train a pet cat, a cat trains you to be its slave.

Full Disclosure: I love cats more than I love my family.

:laugh: I can't argue with that.

[Camo]

You pat yourself on the back for bringing in a wounded little bird.

Go outside and bring in a homeless man. Give him a bed, give him food, take pictures of him, etc. Put it in that "Brought Somebody Home" thread of yours. That'll be interesting. That'll really be something.


The bolded made me laugh so hard :rotfl:

[Omnizoa]

I'd say that's debatable, depending on where your dairy is coming from. Same goes for eggs.
It's a questionable choice of words which I figured I was too late to avoid having quoted.

I was taking issue with the "bad FOR you" aspect, which implies health even though I'm largely discussing the topic from a moral perspective.

You pat yourself on the back for bringing in a wounded little bird.

Go outside and bring in a homeless man. Give him a bed, give him food, take pictures of him, etc. Put it in that "Brought Somebody Home" thread of yours. That'll be interesting. That'll really be something.
I should bring a tiger home next too, that'll go over well.

[Omnizoa]

I have seen what happens in slaughterhouses.
And you conclude that conforming to social expectations like going to school is a fair comparison.

[NedStark09]

Despite niggles, naturally including spaying/neutering, I think we're in agreement. "Pet" just has pejorative connotations to me.


*snort*


It is always a facepalm moment.


Insofar as morality is concerned, no that doesn't make it bad for you.

Insofar as HEALTH is concerned, enjoy your pus milk.
See Im not angry that people eat just veggies but people who are on a vegan belief system have too be all nasty about food. They gotta be all hateful. Have you been up close or milked a cow and lets be clear there is a big differance between real farmers milk and Jug factory made milk.

[Swan]

For the last two Christmases I have gone with family downtown to give stuff to homeless people to help them out. I always get a little nervous beforehand, but no need because it's always a rewarding experience. I've never had a homeless person not be grateful for the clothes or the few bucks we offer. They always have fascinating things to say, too. Granted some are a little too far gone to show gratitude, but they aren't mean, and that's fine with me.

[Omnizoa]

See Im not angry that people eat just veggies but people who are on a vegan belief system have too be all nasty about food. They gotta be all hateful.
It's awfully suspect when you say veganism is a hateful belief system when all it is is the exclusion of certain foods.

There are people who don't like tomatoes. Are they all hateful and nasty towards tomatoes?

Also, the obvious follow-up question: What better way to show you hate somebody than by castrating them, cutting their throats, boiling them alive, and then selling them as food with a mocking cartoon mascot?

http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/cowknife.jpg

[Camo]

Meat is tasty.

So are other foods.

[NedStark09]

First he seemed to totally misunderstand dieting and veg*nism in particular. Now simple cooking cuisine seems to go over his head^^

EXPAND YOUR MIND MAN. So a burger, to you, is just like, the Big Mac or what? The concept of the burger doesn't go further than that in your mind or?

I'm heading to bed. I can feel this sh*t will get heated if I don't leave...... i just can't.
Well most people when hear the word Burger think of a flame broiled beef burger thus its meat. Veggie Burger just doesnt make sense if on some level people while say they are over meat really arent and the veggie burger.

Well Im sorry if i dont get the whole vegan food rules. My niece doesnt eat meat but Im not mean too her about it. Her reason is love for animals.

I may need food education its just some things dont make sense with any diets.

[Camo]

There are people who don't like tomatoes. Are they all hateful and nasty towards tomatoes?

I'm hateful and nasty towards eggs. They can burn in hell as far as i'm concerned.

[Miss Vicky]

See Im not angry that people eat just veggies but people who are on a vegan belief system have too be all nasty about food. They gotta be all hateful.

Some vegans are hateful and nasty about their belief system, just like some Christians are hateful and nasty about theirs. But that doesn't make it right to make blanket statements that generalize all of them.

[Omnizoa]

Granted some are a little too far gone to show gratitude, but they aren't mean, and that's fine with me.
That's the blackhole of charity right there.

[Swan]

That's the blackhole of charity right there.

Oh yeah, because cats and dogs are BOOMING WITH GRATITUDE when you help them.

I wasn't even posting that to be combative, sheesh.

[Omnizoa]

My niece doesnt eat meat but Im not mean too her about it. Her reason is love for animals.
Talk to her about it.

[jiraffejustin]

http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/cowknife.jpg


http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/simpsons/images/7/7f/Mmm.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20121205194537

[Omnizoa]

Oh yeah, because cats and dogs are BOOMING WITH GRATITUDE when you help them.

I wasn't even posting that to be combative, sheesh.
Neither was I, I just find it diminishing when charity is treated less as a gift and more as a given.

[Sexy Celebrity]

And you conclude that conforming to social expectations like going to school is a fair comparison.

Here's Bea Arthur and a video of chickens being killed for Kentucky Fried Chicken:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ecvad-NT9hw

How is a chicken's short life on a slaughter farm really worse than years and years of school, followed by years and years of work?

At least when they're finished with life, people eat them. People aren't gonna look at my body when I'm dead and think, YUM! I can only hope my carcass finds its way to an appreciative cannibal. After all the dead animals I've ate in my life, I think it's only fair that I become din-din for something else. In fact, I've heard that you can let vultures eat from your dead body after you've died. I wouldn't mind becoming food for vultures like that. Let them snack on me. I don't need the meat.

[Topsy]

I seriously don't know if you are an advanced troll or just an advanced type of stupid.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/9b40f164d2589d9b2c623e5cfe4a42f6/tumblr_inline_o0vcc0fafz1sva6xo_500.gif

[NedStark09]

Some vegans are hateful and nasty about their belief system, just like some Christians are hateful and nasty about theirs. But that doesn't make it right to make blanket statements that generalize all of them.
You are right I just dont like too call out peoples names. Pus Milk just seemed like any angry response. I dont know personally about being a vegetarian on any level but I know people swear off meat in their diet. For one reason or the other.

[Camo]

Someone should've nominated Lisa The Vegetarian for The Simpsons HOF and we could've had a crossover show with this thread.

[jiraffejustin]

Let's just kill and eat the homeless people, and give their gifts to animals.

[Camo]

http://i64.tinypic.com/js0nrc.gif

[tatmmw2]

So...a vegan is someone who doesn't like meat, not a person that is against the killing of animals? I don't really get that, yes people can dislike tomatoes or eggs, but isn't meat part of our basic alimentation? Do vegans really dislike meat? I mean, aren't we suppose to like meat by instict? I'm seriously asking tho, it seems I'm just being ironic :laugh:

Also there were a few cases where parents MADE their children be vegans, like they don't allow them to eat meat, causing a lot of children to go to the hospital because of that, being vegan doesn't seem too natural. That leaded to some laws against that in Germany and France I believe

[The Rodent]

Surprised there's any vegans on here... I didn't think they had the strength to type.

[Omnizoa]

How is a chicken's short life on a slaughter farm really worse than years and years of school, followed by years and years of work?
The scope and severity of your suffering is less and more often than not optional.

No sane person could ever buy your argument here. You have the freedom to turn off the computer and LEAVE. This is willful ignorance.

[NedStark09]

It's awfully suspect when you say veganism is a hateful belief system when all it is is the exclusion of certain foods.

There are people who don't like tomatoes. Are they all hateful and nasty towards tomatoes?

Also, the obvious follow-up question: What better way to show you hate somebody than by castrating them, cutting their throats, boiling them alive, and then selling them as food with a mocking cartoon mascot?

http://tommcmahon.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/cowknife.jpg

What does showing a cow being sliced by a knife help your cause. Most people who eat meat dont kill the animal and rejoyce in there death . Most people eat what they eat too stay alive. Now I know you may be trying too make a point but people who eat meat are not cave men with knives that wait too drink blood. Too be clear I dont eat much beef meat other then maybe hamburger now and then. I eat allot of fish, chicken and pork. Lets also be fair dont eat allot of take out for already know its nasty. Around here a women found a rat deep fried in a long johns dinner. Long Johns is kinda like Captain D s if dont know what Long Johns is.

[Swan]

*Remembers I'm not sane*

I'm OUTTA HERE!

[Sexy Celebrity]

You have the freedom to turn off the computer and LEAVE.

...... No, I really don't. Wish I could leave here, though.

[Camo]

Yeah, Yoda slipped a no leave clause into the rules SC accepted to join here.

[The Rodent]

To be fair, vegans and veggies have a point.
The stuff you get from the supermarket is mass produced cruelly treated, force fed disease ridden bile.


I have killed and eaten my own meat. Mainly rabbits and hares... and when I did kill, it was done as quickly and "humanely" as possible.
Also, nothing was wasted. Stuff I can't eat went to the cats, anything they can't eat was left in the field for the foxes.


But yeah, I get what most veggies and vegans go on about, but I would never damage myself by not eating meat or animal products.
Veganism and vegetarianism is a product of society... and products of society are far worse than what nature intended, ie; eating meat.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Earth is just a giant grocery store.

[banality]

tell peta my minks dragging on the floor

[The Rodent]

Where is the line drawn on fur?
I mean, I have a jacket that has a label in it saying it's made from mole skin :D

[Sexy Celebrity]

Even things in outer space eat things out there in outer space.

Like, the other day -- I was reading an article -- a star ate another star. Out in outer space. Something like that.

Oh, this might be it -- astronomers watched a supermassive black hole eat a passing star. (http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/06/health/black-hole-star-radio-telescope/)

Even outer space is a big old cannibalistic bitch. Eating other things is NORMAL. It's NATURAL. Something gets hungry, it grabs what it can. Vegans would eat animals and things if they needed it to survive.

[The Rodent]

Where do Vegans stand on animal product clothes?


Like, everything we wear is an animal product. Jeans, shirts, boots... it's all from sheep wool and cow skins. Do they wear only Nylon?
Because, you know... Nylon is a chemical based man-made fibre... and is dangerous to the environment.

[Omnizoa]

You are right I just dont like too call out peoples names. Pus Milk just seemed like any angry response.
Do you think I CALLED YOU "Pus Milk"? Or are you actually unaware of that yellow tint in your glass?

So...a vegan is someone who doesn't like meat, not a person that is against the killing of animals?
What are you talking about?

Do vegans really dislike meat? I mean, aren't we suppose to like meat by instict? I'm seriously asking tho, it seems I'm just being ironic :laugh:
https://veganbiologistdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/01/05_humans_are_frugivores_750.jpg

Also there were a few cases where parents MADE their children be vegans, like they don't allow them to eat meat, causing a lot of children to go to the hospital because of that,
Those are called stupid parents. Non-vegans are guilty too.

being vegan doesn't seem too natural
I'd like to hear your definition of "natural" because it's not what it says on the box of your microwaveable chicken dinner.

What does showing a cow being sliced by a knife help your cause.
Hold on, I think there's a problem, yep, you didn't READ what I typed.

To be honest, Ned, I don't think you're articulate enough to hold this conversation at any reasonable length.

But yeah, I get what most veggies and vegans go on about, but I would never damage myself by not eating meat or animal products.
You damage yourself BY eating meat and other animal products.

Carnists have a far higher risk of cancer than vegans due to the carcinogens they consume and consider why it is that osteoporosis is far lower in countries that consume disproportionately less milk.

Veganism and vegetarianism is a product of society... and products of society are far worse than what nature intended, ie; eating meat.
Refer to the pictograph above, I need sleep.

[NedStark09]

Ok I think thats enough with the slander of Vegans or Meat eaters. Because we will need both when aliens come too make us into flertalizer.

[The Rodent]

I had a burger, chicken burger, chips and sausages for dinner today.


Pretty much a vegan diet as I very much doubt there was any beef, pork or chicken in any of the mass produced factory made crap I was eating.

[Omnizoa]

Before I go.
Where do Vegans stand on animal product clothes?


Like, everything we wear is an animal product. Jeans, shirts, boots... it's all from sheep wool and cow skins. Do they wear only Nylon?
Because, you know... Nylon is a chemical based man-made fibre... and is dangerous to the environment.
Oh no, my precious carbon footprint.

Ever heard of cotton?

[jiraffejustin]

Ok I think thats enough with the slander of Vegans or Meat eaters. Because we will need both when aliens come too make us into flertalizer.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oVJTAxPt7IU/UbhWQHLw4mI/AAAAAAAAW38/_9P0kLcbuyY/w1200-h630-p-nu/KOLAN.gif

[Sexy Celebrity]

I had a burger, chicken burger, chips and sausages for dinner today.

Well, hello, Melissa McCarthy.

[The Rodent]

Before I go.

Oh no, my precious carbon footprint.

Ever heard of cotton?



Cotton, from fields... picked by hand. Technically made by man... and therefore the product of an animal.


:D
:D
:D
:D
:D

[jiraffejustin]

This thread is great. A bunch of posts by someone not making much sense. And Ned Stark is here too.

[banality]

What happened to this forum

[Kaplan]

Ok I think thats enough with the slander of Vegans or Meat eaters. Because we will need both when aliens come too make us into flertalizer.

That should be your signature. That should be somebody's signature.

[tatmmw2]

I like arguing for no reason, that suggests I don't have a clue what I'm saying :nope: Also are you a vegan Omni? since you started the thread I'm curious even if it's obvious or you already said it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkCwFkOZoOY

[Omnizoa]

Very Definitely Final Addendum:

I'm willing to have a mature conversation about this topic for anyone willing the same, but that's not what the last 3 pages has been. I'm not going to engage dismissive attitudes, cruising for 'gotcha questions', or as Yoda put it, drive-by assertions.

I've spent more years than this forum has existed considering the reasons for and ramifications of this topic and it should be more than apparent from the opening post.

It no more warrants the flippancy you've given it than your flippancy warrant acknowledgement. So you'll get in your digs and highfive each other with rep, but let there be no illusion; you're not part of the conversation.

I like arguing for no reason, that suggests I don't have a clue what I'm saying :nope: Also are you a vegan Omni? since you started the thread I'm curious even if it's obvious or you already said it.
The opening post isn't just a formality, read it.

[tatmmw2]

Sorry, funny enough I stopped reading when you said cut that sh*t down, just after that there was my question then I saw the Lexicon. It's really well made

[NedStark09]

I had a burger, chicken burger, chips and sausages for dinner today.


Pretty much a vegan diet as I very much doubt there was any beef, pork or chicken in any of the mass produced factory made crap I was eating.
Your problem was trying to eat ground chicken into a burger and expecting it not too be put together with some type of veggie paste too make it hold together while you grill or fry it.

[NedStark09]

Now I have had a turkey burger that was not bad. My sister makes a chicken meatloaf. Something about a white looking meatloaf seems odd.

[Pussy Galore]

To those who say that they love animal and eat meat (cricket and Swan I think) I would say that it doesn't make you a bad person, but that you should probably question yourself as to why you would kill and encourage the suffering of beings that you love.

[Pussy Galore]

Sorry for the double post, but I find fascinating that most meat eater that try to defend it never submit arguments as to why it is morally acceptable, but just resort to comparison as to why the vegan in an other sphere of his life is immoral. Or give any other reason that doesn't answer to the question: ''is it morally acceptable to kill animal to nourish ourselves''

The fact that I do something immoral that is not veganism doesn't change at all the morality of veganism itself.

[AboveTheClouds]

Arguing the morality of anything is absolutely daft and always seems like a cop out, as it lies entirely in the eye of the beholder. Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to try and assert your morals on another person, or to even question their actions. Tend to your own flocks.

But this thread is seriously a work of art. 11/10 would read again, my sides are in pain.

[Omnizoa]

Arguing the morality of anything is absolutely daft and always seems like a cop out, as it lies entirely in the eye of the beholder. Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to try and assert your morals on another person, or to even question their actions.
It's interesting that you hardline musical genre classification but refuse to weigh in on the ethical consequeces of... say... raping babies. Your subjectivist outlook permits this.

[Pussy Galore]

Arguing the morality of anything is absolutely daft and always seems like a cop out, as it lies entirely in the eye of the beholder. Who are you, or anyone for that matter, to try and assert your morals on another person, or to even question their actions. Tend to your own flocks.

But this thread is seriously a work of art. 11/10 would read again, my sides are in pain.

That is false, there are things that you would deem absolutely immoral such as killing someone else, pedophilia, rape, etc.

What I'm asking is why those things are absolutely immoral and if so, how does killing million of sentient beings that aren't human isn't?

(If you think these are not absolutely immoral then I'd also like an explanation)

[Pussy Galore]

Double post again, I'm studying philosophy and there is a huge branch of it that studies morals it's called ethics. You should read a little about it.

[NedStark09]

Sorry for the double post, but I find fascinating that most meat eater that try to defend it never submit arguments as to why it is morally acceptable, but just resort to comparison as to why the vegan in an other sphere of his life is immoral. Or give any other reason that doesn't answer to the question: ''is it morally acceptable to kill animal to nourish ourselves''

The fact that I do something immoral that is not veganism doesn't change at all the morality of veganism itself.
Here is the thing I come from a back ground where my parents all raised their own living and had small farms until even my parents did until my father felt it was too far too town. Then we ended up living the suburban life where food stores was our living. I know what a chicken and Factory is and slaughter places my grand parents worked in the chicken one and it was hard work and ultimately my grandfather worked himself too death for cents an hour and hating the smell of chicken.
Understand farmers care for their animals and do honor their death when there life comes too an end. Its why many of people in my parents generation said grace and blessed the food. Blessing the food god gived which was meat so we man could survive. Now man also did create fruits and vegetables on farms but my point is i fallow families that farmed all kind of things because they actually lived during a great depression and war.
When their is 7 kids too a family back then your gonna eat what was given be it from the garden or from food animals.

[Pussy Galore]

''Honor their death'' I wonder if such a thing is possible.

If you want to include god in an argument you need to prove his existence, or at least try to justify it.

You describe a situation in which not eating meat meant death, there isn't anyone living in an occidental country that have such a situation. Everyone has a choice and can be vegan.

[Omnizoa]

I'd like to point out that there is no easier cop-out than saying "that's just your opinion".

[TONGO]

Ok so a Ve'gan can eat seafood. Cool, thats sounds possible. This is definitely an unnatural act...oddly for natures benefit. We have teeth to eat meat, its natural for us to want it. People can overcome their "natural compulsions" and train themselves to do this. Im not one but the benefits are inarguable.

[Miss Vicky]

Ok so a Ve'gan can eat seafood.
:facepalm:

[NedStark09]

Except for people who ared deathly ill too some seasfood like lobster or crab. And trust me people can be deathly allergic too it.

[Miss Vicky]

No, no, no. Get it straight people. If you eat seafood you are NOT vegetarian.

No. Please go back to the original post and read Omni's definition of pescatarian. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

[doubledenim]

I'm hateful and nasty towards eggs. They can burn in hell as far as i'm concerned.

I'm rowing the boat you're on. Eggs tie my insides up in knots and make me wish my bottom would secede from the United States of denim.

I'd like to point out that there is no easier cop-out than saying "that's just your opinion".


http://i44.tinypic.com/351s67k.gif (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=0ahUKEwjCtc2f7szOAhUC1CYKHeMeC3cQjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.last.fm%2Fforum%2F5%2F_%2F617837%2F56&psig=AFQjCNHiX2Xo4o1jq_Dobn_TNuX8mZIXSg&ust=1471674774376555)

[AboveTheClouds]

It's interesting that you hardline musical genre classification but refuse to weigh in on the ethical consequeces of... say... raping babies. Your subjectivist outlook permits this.

Don't see what me being an elitist music jerk has anything to do with me thinking morality is silly. Music has definite parameters to it, and as to what justifies as each genre. Not to mention music is a little more concrete in it's existence, than morals are.

[AboveTheClouds]

That is false, there are things that you would deem absolutely immoral such as killing someone else, pedophilia, rape, etc.

What I'm asking is why those things are absolutely immoral and if so, how does killing million of sentient beings that aren't human isn't?

(If you think these are not absolutely immoral then I'd also like an explanation)

Well, I do not view any of that as morally wrong, It is not my place to make such decisions or to judge the way another thinks or lives their life. To take a moral high ground is to find an excuse to pass judgement on others, your sense of morality exists only in the ether and to appease some ridiculous notion of being a "good" person (of which we probably have different definitions of). Furthermore, I would ask that you don't put words in my mouth, or act as if you understand my way of thinking. And don't be so pompous and assuming that everyone gives a damn about every thing that happens on this planet.

[Daniel M]

I've been a vegetarian for nearly eight weeks now I think, although I still eat diary products such as milk and eggs, the former mainly only in tea, but the latter pretty much everyday for breakfast. I'm probably gonna start trying almond milk and such, mainly for health reasons, but I don't think I'd stop eating eggs, as long as they were free range.

Vegetarianism was something I had considered for a few years, mainly since I began taking an interest in the country and world as a more complex and political system than your younger self does, and started becoming more conscious of my choices on the whole. I always felt the morally eating meat was wrong, but like many people, I suspect, I was too selfish to give it up because I enjoyed it so much. I became friends with someone who was a vegetarian, and listening to them was very interesting, and then found out another of my close friend had also became one, so this kind of gave me the kick I needed to get started and finally try it myself. I haven't looked back, it's been really good so far. I feel really good about myself, healthier, better, I have been trying out a number of different foods and it's led me to be more conscious of what I'm eating, so I find I'm having a more balanced diet and eating all my meals where as before I'd skip breakfast and hardly ever ate fruit or vegetables at all.

[christine]

As for myself, I've been vegetarian my whole life, have been vegan for many years (I forget how long), and would even consider myself freegan insofar as people are capable of handling that sort of discussion.

Freegan: Someone who reduces waste by consuming products that have been discarded or are otherwise isolated from the chain of supply and demand. This can be for environmental or anti-consumerist reasons.

Freeganism is a form of veganism ("cheating" addressed here). Further reading >>>

I'm interested to hear your thoughts about this and how you carry this out in your own life.

[the samoan lawyer]

I've been Vegan for about 6 months and was a massive meat eater beforehand. Its been much easier than I thought, like I said in a previous post, the most difficult part of it for me is planning meals, especially at lunchtime in work. For me its all still a work in progress, I'm trying to live on a plant based diet as much as possible but its just all about researching what foods to eat. Omnizoa mentioned before about b12, I have no problem getting protein into my diet but b12 was something I did worry about so I'm taking supplements for this.




Same as Christine, is it possible you can expand a bit on Freeganism Omnizoa?

[The Rodent]

Sorry for the double post, but I find fascinating that most meat eater that try to defend it never submit arguments as to why it is morally acceptable, but just resort to comparison as to why the vegan in an other sphere of his life is immoral. Or give any other reason that doesn't answer to the question: ''is it morally acceptable to kill animal to nourish ourselves''

The fact that I do something immoral that is not veganism doesn't change at all the morality of veganism itself.



To those who say that they love animal and eat meat (cricket and Swan I think) I would say that it doesn't make you a bad person, but that you should probably question yourself as to why you would kill and encourage the suffering of beings that you love.

Morality doesn't come into play with diet.
Is it immoral to feed yourself? No.


Ok, morality can be used when animals suffer. The way pigs and cows are killed, and chickens, is, in some slaughter houses, not all but some, an awful way to kill them.
But, saying that eating meat is immoral, is like saying a cat shouldn't hunt birds because they're beautiful.


Or bears should be stopped from killing salmon because salmon have a tough enough life as it is without having to worry about being caught by a grizzly.
It's immoral for the bear to do that to such an already put-upon fish.


Eating meat and other animal products, is what humans are designed to do. I've known people who have damaged themselves when they went vegan. My Sister damaged her kidneys and liver from lack of protein when she did it and was told by her doctor that she had to start eating animal products again or she was going to die.
Humans are simply not designed to not eat animal products. We need fruit, vegetables, meat, dairy... deal with it.
The best thing to do when it comes to "morals"... is check where and how the meat was killed and if the eggs you're eating came from caged chickens or not.
But cutting one thing out of your diet because you think it's some sort of moral game, is only going to damage yourself.

[Omnizoa]

I will address the other posts, but until I get to a desktop:

Eating meat and other animal products, is what humans are designed to do.
Your arguments are so old they're cliche. Please return to the opening post and visit the link under "Arguments", these points have been refuted already.

[Omnizoa]

No, no, no. Get it straight people. If you eat seafood you are NOT vegetarian.

No. Please go back to the original post and read Omni's definition of pescatarian. This is not a difficult concept to grasp.
Thank you.

Well, I do not view any of that as morally wrong...
...And don't be so pompous and assuming that everyone gives a damn about every thing that happens on this planet.
Okay, let's assassinate this idea on the spot.

Let me translate this:

"No, I do not consider empathy, compassion, or the well-being of others worthwhile values and I am personally offended that you assume that I do or can be convinced that they are. Get out of my way."

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/y23Q27K.gif


Okay, Clouds, but what all of this amounts to is that you consider my values a threat because they consider your values a threat.

You accomplish nothing by coming in here and announcing this and ironically by doing so you're making an appeal to values you think I share with you. You're grossly mistaken.

I will not back down on this point because it personally inconveniences you.

[MovieMeditation]

I've been Vegan for about 6 months and was a massive meat eater beforehand. Its been much easier than I thought, like I said in a previous post, the most difficult part of it for me is planning meals, especially at lunchtime in work. For me its all still a work in progress, I'm trying to live on a plant based diet as much as possible but its just all about researching what foods to eat. Omnizoa mentioned before about b12, I have no problem getting protein into my diet but b12 was something I did worry about so I'm taking supplements for this.
Damn, didn't know you were vegan. That's awesome dude.

[Omnizoa]

I'm interested to hear your thoughts about this and how you carry this out in your own life.
In which way? Socially? Nutritionally? Literally?

Omnizoa mentioned before about b12, I have no problem getting protein into my diet but b12 was something I did worry about so I'm taking supplements for this.
There are some very easy solutions to B12 deficiency:

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26681&stc=1&d=1471607068

Cereal is friggen' packed with B12 and other vitamins, it's literally the only food I need to eat regularly to stay healthy.

Same as Christine, is it possible you can expand a bit on Freeganism Omnizoa?
Sure, but let me warn that my experience with the topic is historically fraught with failure to the convey the idea. It seems to me that people go vegan in their open-mindedness and once there close off all borders and patrol their dogma ferociously.

I once spoke to public speaker, Gary Yourofsky, on the topic (you can find him on Youtube, he's pretty popular) and while I concede that he's made more than his fair share of good arguments in favor of veganism, as soon as I explained that I was freegan he SLAMMED ME with personal insults calling me "just as bad as meat eaters" (I'm paraphrasing). It's clear that some people, even those respected in vegan circles, are extremely hostile to even informed scrutiny, so let me try to explain this from my rather unconventional perspective:

You've probably heard of the desert island scenario, it's a classic carnist argument, popularly considered a 'gotcha question' and likewise often ignored or argued back with "but that would never happen".

I STRONGLY disagree with this stance because calling the desert island scenario a 'gotcha question' grossly misrepresents what it is, argumentum ad absurdum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum). If you posit a principal, such as veganism, than it should be logically sustainable even to the hypothetical extreme.

The scenario is usually presented thus:

You're alone on a desert island, there's nothing to eat except a deer. Would you kill and eat the deer to survive?The answer most consistent with veganism is "no", killing the deer asserts a value judgment that your life is implicitly more valuable than it's own which is fundamentally speciesist and generally unfounded outside of extenuating circumstances.

When answered with something to the effect of "killing is wrong", the following variation is reasonably produced:

What if it was a tiger? And the tiger is trying to eat you? Would you kill it?Diehard pacifists would say "no" and they would literally die hard, but anyone who recognizes that another animal's disregard for your own life legitimizes disregarding theirs in turn would admit, "yes, I'd kill the tiger".

This is usually where people go "AHA!" and misunderstand the distinction or they, again reasonably, arrive at a third variation:

Would you eat the tiger then? Now that it's dead?Or alternatively:
You're alone on a desert island, there's nothing to eat except a dead deer. Would you eat the deer to survive?MOST veg*ns answer "no" to this question usually by reasserting that "eating meat is wrong", but this is an entirely unfounded claim, if The Rodent is right about anything it's that the literal act of eating another animal is not implicitly immoral in and of itself.

The moral concern is with suffering and impinging upon the animals' rights. If the animal is DEAD then it can't suffer and rights no longer serve any practical purpose to it. What IT values is no longer relevant because it no longer capable of valuing anything.

Further, this is on a desert island, this is a scenario, for all intents and purposes, entirely devoid of the industrial chain of supply and demand. The example does not assert that this situation is observable by the producers, nor is there any caveat to suggest that eating the deer would enable or otherwise financially incentivize breeding more deer and sticking them on islands for vegans to eat.

No more suffering can come to this animal or animals like it by eating this animal. Therefor it's logical to conclude that under such circumstances, it is morally permissible to consume animal products.

This is the crux underpinning freeganism.

This line of thinking applies to other areas of veganism as well. I own a leather wallet for example:

This wallet is over 20 years old. I received it secondhand from someone who was already intending to throw it away and had already replaced it so my concession to accept it had no impact on the possibility of enabling the further purchase of more leather wallets.

My relationship with this person was at and end as well so I no longer interact with them.

The "TRUE VEGAN" response to a leather wallet is to turn up their nose in disgust and abhorrence without regard to the environmental impact throwing it away might have. However I recognize that my possession and use of this wallet, assuming I don't advertise it, has absolutely no impact on the suffering of the animals that produced it 20 years ago or could conceivably produce it today.

I made this argument in a chatroom recently and I was hit back with an emotional appeal of the most extreme kind:

What if you found a lampshade made from the skin of dead Jews at Auschwitz? Would you say it was okay to use it?The answer is simple; I can be THOROUGHLY DISGUSTED by the lampshade and concede that it is probably one of the most tasteless ****ing home decorations ever invented in the history of the world and by that reason alone decide not to use it,

BUT

it is not morally objectionable. Not unless you postulate a moral standard about dead remains which that person immediately followed with, suggesting animal products should be in a museum (which is amusing and contestable for a number of reasons).


Ultimately, and I hazard to describe it quite in this way, freeganism is "reductionist". The consumption of animal products through freeganism in no way incentives the production of more animal products, and the more people that become freegan, the less animal products become available, and the less animal products there are to "freeganize".

If everyone on the planet went freegan tomorrow, no more animal products would ever be produced and what animal products that already exist would not be wasted such as they would with vegan dogma.

Leftover leather shoes, albeit repulsive to think about, would be morally permissible to wear.


Hopefully that answered some of your questions.

[Omnizoa]

The distinction veg*ns fail to make is personal disgust and moral compunction.

[christine]

In which way? Socially? Nutritionally? Literally

all of them.
It's a subject I'm quite interested in. I'm not a vegetarian but as a family we don't eat that much meat these days, specially me, but I am interested in the subject of food waste and the place we've got ourselves into with sell by dates.

[MovieMeditation]

Anyways, I was one of the people who helped "set the sails" for this thread, but I feel like I should reply properly in the correct thread as well...

Personally, I probably wanna go all vegan some day, whether that'll be soon or in the near future. I definitely don't wanna be just a vegetarian, because as of right now, what I have cut down on the most, is actually diary products. I don't drink milk no more and haven't for many months now. I enjoy rice milk, while the occasional soy milk or oat milk is great too. I try to cut down on meat when and where I can at the moment. If the choice is right in front of me - let's say, on a restaurant - 9 times out of 10 will I pick the vegan option. I enjoy the raw, whole food type of deal and I love the concept of it. Whenever I eat a very fatty "saucy" or greasy meal it makes me miss the healthier and, more importantly, more delicious option.

I'm getting better and better at living as the self-proclaimed "semi-vegan" that I see myself as at the moment, and I sure hope that one day I'll go all the way. That's definitely the plan alright.

Now, why do I wanna become a vegan and why do I cut down on meat and diary products? Well, the former is mostly because of not wanting to support animal suffering and them dying for no reason. The latter is actually because I've seen clear changes and results after cutting it. I have always had a tendancy to acne. My skin looks and feels so much better now. Secondly, as many people do I get a little trouble with the stomach when drinking milk for example and that's gone now.

So yeah, I eat and drink like I do because I'm firstly an animal lover and don't want to support the killing and suffering of them, second I feel and look better without the meat and diary, and lastly I think the vegan lifestyle has some delicious food and drink options as of 2016. I'd pick a good vegan burger over good meat burger ANY DAY.

[Swan]

My sister is a vegan. I have no problems with it, and she's really thinks about her diet so I think she's safe. I have some disagreements with her about food in general, but overall I am fine with the veganism. Some things that have happened make me wonder if it's not good for her (I'm not going to say what), but it could be other things, and I'm not informed enough to say it's the veganism.

I've met other people who are really bright about food and diet, and they have not seemed overly crazy about veganism. I was with my nutritionist and my dad said "we cook really healthy, vegan meals at home" and she said "why does it being vegan make it healthy?" Not to imply she was against veganism, I didn't ask. But I don't think people should act like veganism going to give you superpowers or something.

I think one could get by on veganism for sure. However, I do think, for better or for worse, it's more of a challenge. But if you think you'll benefit from it and want to take it on, I have no personal problems with it. I've tried myself in high school to do vegetarianism, I think the most I made it was two weeks. :p

Hope none of that come off anti-vegan or something (not sure why it would anyway), because that was not the intention. Just me rambling again. Dammit, Swan!

[Swan]

I'd pick a good vegan burger over good meat burger ANY DAY.

Have you had a portobella burger before, MM? Those are really good.

[doubledenim]

Any hot takes on the benefits of lower cholesterol intake from veg diets?

Having no knowledge other than a family member in healthcare, I'm skeptical about supplements and nutrition absorbed from cereal. These nutrients may be there (sprayed on or whatnot), but how sure are we that they are absorbed? This person is of the belief that vitamins and supplements may amount to no more than making expensive urine.

[MovieMeditation]

Have you had a portobella burger before, MM? Those are really good.
Not a burger, but a sandwich, and yes that was very tasty indeed.

[TONGO]

Vegetarian: Someone who doesn't eat the meat or flesh of animals. This can be for moral, health, religious, or environmental reasons. see them.)[/SIZE][/CENTER]

Hm, a fish isnt considered an animal. You need to rewrite that.

[Swan]

Did you just say a fish isn't an animal?

[Camo]

The five most well known classes of vertebrates (animals with backbones) are mammals, birds, fish, reptiles, amphibians. They are all part of the phylum chordata -- I remember "chordata" by thinking of spinal chord. There are also a lot of animals without backbones.

http://www.kidzone.ws/animals/animal_classes.htm

[Camo]

Before you present any arguments against veg*nism, please check your questions here. But You Kill Ants by John Waddell concisely addresses 101 of the most common arguments made against veg*nism. Your answer is almost certainly there.

The link that is in this part isn't working btw Omni. Unless it is just me.

[TONGO]

Hunh?! No ****! Ok dont mind me :blush:

stupid science...

[Pussy Galore]

Morality doesn't come into play with diet.
Is it immoral to feed yourself? No.
I don't see your point here. Why wouldn't morality come into play with diet? The food you eat was something before you eat it. It is morally relevant to ask what happened for it to become the food you eat.


Ok, morality can be used when animals suffer. The way pigs and cows are killed, and chickens, is, in some slaughter houses, not all but some, an awful way to kill them.
But, saying that eating meat is immoral, is like saying a cat shouldn't hunt birds because they're beautiful.
The difference between you and the cat is that you are a rationnal being. You have the capacity to question yourself about the choices you make. The whole idea of morality is to question our behavior, or to question ourself as to what is an appropriate what, what we ought to do. If the cat cannot do that then how can he be a ''moral agent''. However, the cat can suffer, then why wouldn't he be a ''moral patient''. The distinction I make is the following: A moral agent is someone who has the capacity to act morally, a moral patient is someone who have interest, hence that moral agent should consider in their actions.


Eating meat and other animal products, is what humans are designed to do. I've known people who have damaged themselves when they went vegan. My Sister damaged her kidneys and liver from lack of protein when she did it and was told by her doctor that she had to start eating animal products again or she was going to die.
Humans are simply not designed to not eat animal products. We need fruit, vegetables, meat, dairy... deal with it.
A lot of people think humans are ''desgined'' to be something and I really don't see based on what you make that assumption. Saying you have known someone who has damaged himself when he became vegan isn't an argument, I know lots of people that died early because they ate red meat in huge quantity all their life which made them fat. My point is that on a health basis you can be healthy while being an omnivore and while being a vegan you just need to inform yourself. It's almost as if you say that the only source of protein that exist is in meat, that is false. The question here is moral not about your health.


The best thing to do when it comes to "morals"... is check where and how the meat was killed and if the eggs you're eating came from caged chickens or not.
But cutting one thing out of your diet because you think it's some sort of moral game, is only going to damage yourself.
Honestly I never felt better physically then since I'm a vegetarian, I lost weight, I run faster, I bike faster. You just don't consider the interest of other sentient begins for a reaosn you don't explain. You say that we ''need'' to eat meat which just is false and you don't tackle the question of the suffering and killing of million of non human animals just for our pleasure.

[Miss Vicky]

The difference between you and the cat is that you are a rational being. You have the capacity to question yourself about the choices you make.

That's not the only difference.

Cats are obligate carnivores (http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-what-exactly-is-an-qobligate-carnivoreq) and suffer nutrient deficiencies and other health complications when forced into a vegan diet.

[Omnizoa]

all of them.
Woo... ummm...

Well, I never had any problems going vegan overnight. Just cut off buying non-vegan stuff one day and just finished what was left in the fridge. My seamless experience with it is a big reason I really rankle at people who complain about it being "too hard" or say their cravings cause them to fall off the boat.

I'm a LONGTIME cheese-eater and cheese is considered to be near addictive in some circles. I used to love homemade cheese burritos and going vegan effectively ended my relationship with my favorite food: pineapple pizza calzones.

So when people say they miss it too much or they can't give it up or they "can't imagine" it, it really annoys me because it tells me that that person has extremely poor willpower. And people who let themselves be pushed around or become subservient to the status quo because "it's too hard to be different" thoroughly repel me as human beings.

This perspective invades the rest of my life and is exactly why I'm typing up this message on a Dvorak keyboard.

Granted, I had the advantage of already being vegetarian before I went vegan, but the real issue for people, which several have brought up already, is that they simply don't understand how simple it is to cut out the dairy and meat strata of the food pyramid.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26687&stc=1&d=1471646537


If they're concerned about their health they can look it up, nowadays, with the internet they have no excuse not to do it right.


Moving on, I've been heckled for being veg*n my whole life, ever since kindergarten people have made fun of me for not eating meat or not going to church or not subscribing to some other thing in their lives they just assumed must be important.

I can see why a lot of people would crumble under the pressure, but for me it was always a simple matter: that first time you look at your cat and think about the fact that people think it's okay to eat him and many of the other animals like him, it just never sat with me. So it's always been a simple cost/benefit analysis: Do I want to appease these people making fun of me? Or do I want to hate myself?

There's no contest.

Nowadays my biggest issue is with other veg*ns, honestly. There's the problem as I've described with freeganism, there's the daunting number of veg*ns who forfeit their veg*nism at the desert island scenario, and altogether, I just don't give a **** about what they give a **** about.

They cook, I don't.
They garden, I don't.
They keep pets, I don't.
They perform activism and WRITE ME OFF for not sacrificing my life for the cause, that's not how it works, I don't buy into compulsive charity, I have no moral obligation to empty my pockets at the sight of a homeless person on the side of the street.

I have my own ways of provoking change. I like movies, I like video games, I like music, I have a ton of hobbies that are totally neglected in those sorts of communities and that's why I'm here.

So yeah, I eat and drink like I do because I'm firstly an animal lover and don't want to support the killing and suffering of them, second I feel and look better without the meat and diary, and lastly I think the vegan lifestyle has some delicious food and drink options as of 2016.
:up:

I think one could get by on veganism for sure. However, I do think, for better or for worse, it's more of a challenge.
It's a social challenge more than anything else because it doesn't conform to popular belief.

Having no knowledge other than a family member in healthcare, I'm skeptical about supplements and nutrition absorbed from cereal. These nutrients may be there (sprayed on or whatnot), but how sure are we that they are absorbed?
B12 deficiency is easy to determine because it comes with very specific symptoms such as numbness of extremities and canker sores of the mouth.

I've noticed that if I ever get a canker sore it's usually because I've been neglecting cereal and eating some has consistently resolved the pain in under 48 hours.

The link that is in this part isn't working btw Omni. Unless it is just me.
No, I ****ed up, I forgot http://. It's fixed it now.

Hunh?! No ****! Ok dont mind me :blush:

stupid science...
I also defined animal specifically to avoid this sort of thing.

The whole idea of morality is to question our behavior, or to question ourself as to what is an appropriate what, what we ought to do. If the cat cannot do that then how can he be a ''moral agent''. However, the cat can suffer, then why wouldn't he be a ''moral patient''. The distinction I make is the following: A moral agent is someone who has the capacity to act morally, a moral patient is someone who have interest, hence that moral agent should consider in their actions.
That's an interesting nuance haven't heard before, however I don't think it holds up practically against further scrutiny of predators and parasites.

That's not the only difference.

Cats are obligate carnivores (http://feline-nutrition.org/answers/answers-what-exactly-is-an-qobligate-carnivoreq) and suffer nutrient deficiencies and other health complications when forced into a vegan diet.
CAN suffer nutrient deficiencies, just like any one of us who decides to eat nothing but carrots for 3 weeks straight.

http://www.vegancats.com/
http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_food#Vegan_and_vegetarian_diets

Ultimately there remains a conflict of interest here that will end poorly if it isn't carefully resolved.

[Miss Vicky]

http://pets.webmd.com/features/vegetarian-diet-dogs-cats


A quote from this very link:

“For cats, it’s really inappropriate. It goes against their physiology and isn’t something I would recommend at all," says Cailin Heinze, VMD, a board-certified veterinary nutritionist and assistant professor of nutrition at Tufts Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine.

If you're vegan and can't handle the fact that true carnivores NEED meat, don't have cats.

[Miss Vicky]

I should also add that I'm extremely wary of some of the diets offered for sale in that first link. And not just because they're vegan. Any food that is meant to be fed long term and is labeled as being for both dogs and cats is a huge red flag for me.

They're two totally different species with different dietary needs.

[nebbit]

I don't eat meat as I don't like the taste or texture :p My Mother had a hard time trying to get me to eat it when I was a child :rolleyes: Stopped eating sea food in my 20's when I was stoned and nearly choked on a prawn :eek:

[Pussy Galore]

That's an interesting nuance haven't heard before, however I don't think it holds up practically against further scrutiny of predators and parasites.


What do you mean by predators and parasites? Or, how does it affect the distinction I make?

[TONGO]

I also defined animal specifically to avoid this sort of thing.

You didnt define it, you highlighted it. Camo defined it.
I was actually trying to be supportive. Seems theres alot of underlying hostility to people misdefining a vegetarian. :rolleyes:

[Omnizoa]

You didnt define it,
I DID.

Animals: Anything that is taxonomically defined under the kingdom, Animalia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal). This includes fish AND humans.

I was actually trying to be supportive. Seems theres alot of underlying hostility to people misdefining a vegetarian. :rolleyes:

There is underlying hostility to people's blatant disregard for the truth such as what people have or have not said.

[Omnizoa]

If you're vegan and can't handle the fact that true carnivores NEED nutrients commonly found in meat, don't have cats.
*Fixed.

That's why I described it as a conflict of interest.

Any food that is meant to be fed long term and is labeled as being for both dogs and cats is a huge red flag for me.

They're two totally different species with different dietary needs.
That's certainly fair.

What do you mean by predators and parasites? Or, how does it affect the distinction I make?
It's not unrelated to Miss Vicky's point. The issue is accommodating a moral patient by immoral means.

There's also the issue of parasitism, take an intestinal worm for example: it's not a moral agent, but it can suffer. Without you it will suffer, but you will suffer with it.

How do you reconcile that?

[TONGO]

There is underlying hostility to people's blatant disregard for the truth such as what people have or have not said.

I wasnt misquoting you or using "strawman" but saying it seems theres underlying hostility. It still does.

[Pussy Galore]

It's not unrelated to Miss Vicky's point. The issue is accommodating a moral patient by immoral means.
How do you qualify something as immoral?

There's also the issue of parasitism, take an intestinal worm for example: it's not a moral agent, but it can suffer. Without you it will suffer, but you will suffer with it.

How do you reconcile that?
From everything I've read insects and even some small seafood don't really feel pain, or feels it in microscopic level. The reason is a lack of nervous system. If not a lack then a microscopic one.

[Swan]

It's a social challenge more than anything else because it doesn't conform to popular belief.

Fair enough. I don't think anyone should be picking on you guys, and I'm sorry if I am one who was. Alas, if I did, I make up for it by publicly ostracizing myself from you meat eaters. At least temporarily.

I did a bit more thinking and am going to try vegetarianism out, at least work on cutting out the meat, for a number of reasons (mainly family history of heart disease) - including things you might not think about like improving my self-discipline (something I never felt I was great at). Restricting something I love like meat will go a long way in that regard.

On top of that, I just want to try something new, see if I like it. If I end up feeling better, more awake, etc. - if it does fix a lot of my problems - maybe I will stick with it. I'm going in with an open, enthusiastic mind, too. I want this to be beneficial for me.

Sorry JJ. :p

[Sexy Celebrity]

There's just TOO much meat out there available and I like it. I am not all MEAT, MEAT, MEAT. I love vegetables and other things. I even love the trendy new almond milk that everybody's drinking.

When I watched a video showing a slaughterhouse once, I didn't wanna eat meat after that. Seriously. But I got over it.

I feel like trying to be a vegetarian/vegan is just trendy. Yes, watch how much meat you eat, but I like meat and there's a lot of it available. I'm only living once. I'm gonna spend my time eating food I like. Nobody is ever gonna stop slaughtering animals for food. It's here, it's dead, get over it.

[Swan]

Thanks, Sexy. You've convinced me to go full vegan. :D

[Pussy Galore]

Sexy, I am the opposite of trendy, I can give you philosophical reasons to do it that are rock solid, maybe most people do it to be trendy, but a lot do it for rationnal motives.

[Omnizoa]

because it's trendy
Go away.

Yes, there are people who jump onto the bandwagon and bail at the nearest convenience, but don't insult the rest of us with your careless trivializations.

You're welcome to put forward an original argument, but saying you "felt bad but got over it" only informs that you haven't committed any substantial thought to the topic and it even calls into question whether you posturing is just veiled insecurity.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I don't care if people wanna be vegan/vegetarian/whatever. I can understand your concerns. But the fact is, meat's out there, it's available, and I like it. I think it's good for the body. I'm not saying it's without health concerns at all, but it's good for the body. If people wanna use animals for food, whatever. They're tasty and I'm not alone with feeling that way.

[Omnizoa]

They're tasty and I'm not alone with feeling that way.
Logically impervious, I can think of nothing wrong with that argument (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum).

[Omnizoa]

a Ve'gan can eat seafood.If you eat seafood you are NOT vegetarian. a fish isnt considered an animal.I also defined animalYou didnt*proof you didn't read all of the definitions despite asserting your knowledge of what I defined*
This is what can be termed 'intellectual dishonesty' and malicious or not it comes across as denial which I consider worse than ignorance.

I'm explaining this to you so you can avoid provocation.

How do you qualify something as immoral?I really don't want to derail the thread with a whole philosophical tangent (you can PM me if you want to talk about that), so for now, suffice it to say: The deliberate threat to anothers' well-being, for which one's culpability is increased by the severity of consequences, adjusted by the degree of intention, and decreased by the extenuation of circumstances.

From everything I've read insects and even some small seafood don't really feel pain, or feels it in microscopic level. The reason is a lack of nervous system. If not a lack then a microscopic one.
This disregards my intestinal worm example and evades more general forms of parasitism such as predation.

Substitute my intestinal worm for a bear. The bear is a moral patient, but not a moral agent by your definition which you presented as a justification for Vicky's example of a cat hunting birds.

If you can't hold a cat hunting birds culpable then you can't a hold a bear hunting humans culpable in which case you should just be eaten.

If you argue that we can make an exception for self-defense but not interception then you've arrived at:

It's not okay to save a victim from it's attacker,
only the victim is allowed to save itself.

Now we have an inconsistent moral standard, the equivalent of which is asserting the responsibility of the rape victim to prevent her own rape.

[TONGO]

This is what can be termed 'intellectual dishonesty' and malicious or not it comes across as denial which I consider worse than ignorance.

I'm explaining this to you so you can avoid provocation.

No your jumping on any misconception of what a vegetarian is like its a personal attack or holy subject. Sorry I didnt know a fish is considered an animal :rolleyes: I noticed you did list what is in the animal kingdom further down from where it listed the vegetarian definition.
Just because you wrote and linked an entire books worth of what makes a vegetarian in the original post, it doesnt mean anyone will or should read all that.

Its communication skills which allow the transfer of information. Not posting skills. If people have stupid concepts or idea what a vegetarian is then just explain it simply because youll encounter the same thing again. Dont enter a subject you have knowledge on unless you can handle the typlical misbeliefs that surround it. Come across annoyed or impatient, or "holding in your disgust", well then youre just aggravating yourself because all you say is lost in the delivery.

[Omnizoa]

No your jumping
Sitting, quite calm and relaxed.

on any misconception of what a vegetarian is
What an animal is.

like its a personal attack or holy subject.
Like it's blatant misrepresentation of what you should already know had you scrolled a mere 4 lines down.

You conceded you made a mistake by not knowing and it would have been left there, but you denied that I ever made this distinction clear in the first place.

I can tell and will freely concede that you were probably referring to recent posts when you said that and probably hadn't read the entire opening post, but instead of admitting that yourself you've become defensive and unapologetic and now accuse me of taking a knee-jerk reaction to mistakes.

That's unfair, TONGO.

Sorry I didnt know a fish is considered an animal :rolleyes: Just because you wrote and linked 5 books worth of what makes a vegetarian in the original post, it doesnt mean anyone will or should read all that.
You were specifically warned in the first post about this:

Veggie newbs are probably going to see a lot of words they don't recognize or fully understand so below I'm going to list them and their popularly accepted definitionsYour argument is that you assumed to understand the topic and aren't to blame for not accepting help on the grounds that my post was too informative.

If you walk into a shop class, see people making cabinets, and someone hands you instructions, it's your own negligence if you don't accept them and your cabinets turn out like ****.

Especially if your defense is that the instructions were too complicated. Maybe that's a sign.

Its communication skills which allow the transfer of information. Not posting skills.
I'm sorry I should have realized that we don't communicate through posts here.

If people have stupid concepts or idea what a vegetarian is then just explain it simply because youll encounter the same thing again.
:facepalm:

Did I not just get done explaining that
I DID THAT and YOU DIDN'T READ IT?

You're asking me to adjust what I say to accommodate your refusal to read what I say. DUDE, just admit this is ridiculous and let it go.

Dont enter a subject you have knowledge on unless you can handle the typlical misbeliefs that surround it. Come across annoyed or impatient, or "holding in your disgust", well then youre just aggravating yourself because all you say is lost in the delivery.
Your criticism completely justifies what your criticizing.

[TONGO]

Sitting, quite calm and relaxed.

Did you actually think I meant you were actually jumping Omnizoa?! If so, take your medication. :eek:


What an animal is.

Like it's blatant misrepresentation of what you should already know had you scrolled a mere 4 lines down.

You conceded you made a mistake by not knowing and it would have been left there, but you denied that I ever made this distinction clear in the first place.

I can tell and will freely concede that you were probably referring to recent posts when you said that and probably hadn't read the entire opening post, but instead of admitting that yourself you've become defensive and unapologetic and now accuse me of taking a knee-jerk reaction to mistakes.

That's unfair, TONGO.

Lifes not fair Omnizoa.

Just because you put a novels worth of information with links in the OP does not mean anyone wanting to post in here has to read that. Plain. Now if you wish to inform or discuss with others the benefits of vegetarianism, then talk, inform, and stop acting put upon when someone makes a mistake on the subject or says something that contradicts what you posted earlier. Are you able to understand this - Yes or No?


You were specifically warned in the first post about this:

Your argument is that you assumed to understand the topic and aren't to blame for not accepting help on the grounds that my post was too informative.

If you walk into a shop class, see people making cabinets, and someone hands you instructions, it's your own negligence if you don't accept them and your cabinets turn out like ****.

This isnt a shop class. Your warning means nothing because you arent a teacher. You arent a mod. Your obnoxiousness isnt allowed or forgiven because you can write a post.


Especially if your defense is that the instructions were too complicated. Maybe that's a sign.

I'm sorry I should have realized that we don't communicate through posts here.

Its not too complicated, I refused to read a thrown together bundle of info in a post with the same content as a book before posting in a thread. :)

[Miss Vicky]

Whether you like Omni's style of posting or not, you're not justified in claiming ignorance when the information has been provided to you and you simply refused to read it.

Hell, you didn't even have to read the whole post to get the information. Had you simply scrolled down a little ways, you'd have seen the word Animal in big bold letters under the Lexicon header, with a clear definition right beside it.

[TONGO]

Whether you like Omni's style of posting or not, you're not justified in claiming ignorance when the information has been provided to you and you simply refused to read it.

Hell, you didn't even have to read the whole post to get the information. Had you simply scrolled down a little ways, you'd have seen the word Animal in big bold letters under the Lexicon header, with a clear definition right beside it.

Correct, I would have. I also would have learned an entire semesters worth of information on the subject if I had read his whole post, and followed every link. Reality doesnt work that way. If you two cant handle even the most easiest obvious mistake someone says/makes in a thread then dont bring up the topic at all, or ignore what theyre saying, or simply correct them without coming off as a...well, yknow. Its not what you say, its how you say it. Thats a fact in life, and applies to the internet too.

[Miss Vicky]

you didn't even have to read the whole post to get the information.

Correct, I would have. I also would have learned an entire semesters worth of information on the subject if I had read his whole post.

:facepalm:

Again. All you had to do was scroll and then read like two sentences and you wouldn't have been ignorant anymore.

Well, at least you wouldn't be ignorant on what defines an animal anyway.

[TONGO]

:facepalm:

Again. All you had to do was scroll and then read like two sentences and you wouldn't have been ignorant anymore.

Well, at least you wouldn't be ignorant on what defines an animal anyway.

Ok Vicky, and thank you for that. :lol:

[seanc]

So, you can eat shrimp and be a veegan, right?

[Camo]

So, you can eat shrimp and be a veegan, right?

Pretty sure you can eat all fish because they aren't animals.












:willem: . Nah, just wanted to give a few of you an aneurysm.

[MonnoM]

I commend Omni for making this post. It's informative and allows for those that aren't privy to the subject to learn something new. Now, with that said, I think Tongo is somewhat misunderstood here. His delivery is a bit off, but what he's trying to say is that when someone doesn't know something and may ask questions that may come across ignorant or silly to those that are knowledgeable, to just take it lightly. Take the time to calmly educate that person rather than become defensive, which would only result in an argument.

In other words, play nice, everyone!

[Camo]

Yeah, i agree with Monno. TONGO could've took the time to read the post so i can understand others point of view, but i'm not gonna lie i didn't read it til later either. All i did was posted a link pointing him in the right direction. I may have been a bit condescending posting a link to a kids site though :D

[TONGO]

Yeah, i agree with Monno. TONGO could've took the time to read the post so i can understand others point of view, but i'm not gonna lie i didn't read it til later either. All i did was posted a link pointing him in the right direction. I may have been a bit condescending posting a link to a kids site though :D

Ida done the same thing ;)

[Miss Vicky]

In other words, play nice, everyone!

Niceness is overrated.

[Omnizoa]

I commend Omni for making this post. It's informative and allows for those that aren't privy to the subject to learn something new. Now, with that said, I think Tongo is somewhat misunderstood here. His delivery is a bit off, but what he's trying to say is that when someone doesn't know something and may ask questions that may come across ignorant or silly to those that are knowledgeable, to just take it lightly. Take the time to calmly educate that person rather than become defensive, which would only result in an argument.
And that's fair, but no one making these claims here got defensive. It was Swan and Camo who ultimately made the correction (and thank you to Miss Vicky for clarifying). I merely pointed out that I had already presented that information.

My issue is in denial of that fact AND THEN backpedaling to contend that it's not fair to expect somebody to read something when they could have it vacuously repeated to them ad nauseum instead AND THEN suggest that presenting that information at all is indicative of impatience in a stunningly ironic lack of self awareness.

It's no different than accusing someone of being unreasonable for flinching when they see you immediately after you've just PUNCHED THEM.

[jiraffejustin]

I think the main thing we have learned from this thread is that fish are in fact not animals after all.

[TONGO]

And that's fair, but no one making these claims here got defensive. It was Swan and Camo who ultimately made the correction (and thank you to Miss Vicky for clarifying). I merely pointed out that I had already presented that information.

My issue is in denial of that fact AND THEN backpedaling to contend that it's not fair to expect somebody to read something when they could have it vacuously repeated to them ad nauseum instead AND THEN suggest that presenting that information at all is indicative of impatience in a stunningly ironic lack of self awareness.

It's no different than accusing someone of being unreasonable for flinching when they see you immediately after you've just PUNCHED THEM.

https://cdn.meme.am/instances/55532763.jpg

[TONGO]

I think the main thing we have learned from this thread is that fish are in fact not animals after all.

Sadly youre right. Have you read the first post yet?! :laugh:

I had broccoli in my casserol tonight. I like broccoli :)

[MonnoM]

And that's fair, but no one making these claims here got defensive. It was Swan and Camo who ultimately made the correction (and thank you to Miss Vicky for clarifying). I merely pointed out that I had already presented that information.

My issue is in denial of that fact AND THEN backpedaling to contend that it's not fair to expect somebody to read something when they could have it vacuously repeated to them ad nauseum instead AND THEN suggest that presenting that information at all is indicative of impatience in a stunningly ironic lack of self awareness.

It's no different than accusing someone of being unreasonable for flinching when they see you immediately after you've just PUNCHED THEM.

I completely understand where you're coming from. As of now, I think both of you may have hit a wall and at this point it's all miscommunication and defense mechanisms. You should both put the sarcasm and jokes aside and just be upfront. Or ignore each other entirely for the remainder of this thread, which would be a shame.

Let me stop now before I start a campfire and force every one of you in a Kumbaya sing-along.

[NedStark09]

I think the main thing we have learned from this thread is that fish are in fact not animals after all.
Well know Fish is not an animal in the sense most meat animals are mammals and birds and birds meaning the paultry family. There are many kinds of fish and some are meant for eating others not so much. My belief is God left some animals on earth too feed man and other animals were too fill the earth with variety unfortunately God had no idea that man until well native tribes became well established that man will eat anything. From Lizards and Snakes too Bears. Human man would eat a T Rex if they could kill it. I guess my point is that Fish does not gotta be an animal in those type of terms for man to eat it.

[Camo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhwcEvMJz1Y

[Captain Steel]

Are there people who won't eat any meat, but will make an exception for insects (like the Pescetarians make for fish?)

[Camo]

There's people who heavily promote the eating of insects i know that. Not sure if there's something like that though.

[TONGO]

Are there people who won't eat any meat, but will make an exception for insects (like the Pescetarians make for fish?)
Hm! Good question. I bet its in the first post. : )

[TONGO]

Well know Fish is not an animal in the sense most meat animals are mammals and birds and birds meaning the paultry family. There are many kinds of fish and some are meant for eating others not so much. My belief is God left some animals on earth too feed man and other animals were too fill the earth with variety unfortunately God had no idea that man until well native tribes became well established that man will eat anything. From Lizards and Snakes too Bears. Human man would eat a T Rex if they could kill it. I guess my point is that Fish does not gotta be an animal in those type of terms for man to eat it.

In the Bible God wanted man to eat from the land (vegetables) and the sea (seafood). He warned against eating red or white meat. :yup:

[Pussy Galore]

Are there people who won't eat any meat, but will make an exception for insects (like the Pescetarians make for fish?)

I would eat insects, because they don't suffer.

[Captain Steel]

I would eat insects, because they don't suffer.

What do you mean and how do you know?

[Pussy Galore]

The lack of nervous system, the lack of intelligence, etc.

[Miss Vicky]

I think the notion that insects don't suffer is BS. The idea that because a creature doesn't experience things in the same way as us that means it's not capable of suffering is arrogance.

I gave up vegetarianism a long time ago and have no intention of going back to it, but I would feel less guilty eating beef than I would eating insects or other small animals. One dead cow can feed me for a long time, but an average insect won't even fill my mouth, never mind my stomach.

[Pussy Galore]

What you seem to value is the notion of life, I don't give it any sort of value. A plant lives, but I don't give it any moral worth.

What I seem to care is the notion of interest, a being who has interest deserves moral recognition, how can I know if a being has interest? I ask if the being is sentient, but I see it more as a continuum then has a strict distinction between anything that is sentient and anything that isn't.

Maybe insects have some sort of pain that goes beyond scientific understanding (according to that logic so does plants) but even if it's the case it is so little that I don't know if it is morally relevant.

[Miss Vicky]

And you know it's little how?

Yes, plants probably feel some measure of discomfort too, but an insect is far more complex than a plant and we must feed on some form of life in order to survive.

Insects and other arthropods have legs, mouths and eyes. They move about like we do. Some live in social groups and work together to collect or raise food and to rear their young. There are insects that grow crops, keep livestock, make war with each other and even enslave the offspring of defeated enemies. They're far more complex in behavior than people give them credit for and it seems just as likely that they're more complex in other ways too.

[Captain Steel]

Just a theory - but I believe "suffering" as we humans conceive of it is largely psychological and is very much based in the ideas of future & past: things like anticipation, dread, despair, panic, etc. I won't go so far as to say animals don't experience these things, but that they experience them very differently from humans. All these emotions have components of higher reasoning, imagination, etc. The fear brought about by negative anticipation can only occur with deductive reasoning that takes past experience into account along with acquired knowledge and determining statistical probabilities

I think animals don't really have a concept of future - they live only in the present moment. Even animals that appear to plan for the future (like squirrels gathering nuts for the winter) are acting on instinct rather than anticipation, weighing past experiences and making plans. Living only in the present, I think, probably greatly reduces what we call "suffering" since the idea of torture is more about the fear of continuation or resumption of pain than about pain itself.

I'm not minimizing pain for any animal, but I think for non-human animals instinct can actually supersede pain: animals are willing to fight when in extreme pain, whereas humans are usually ready to lay down and hope other humans come to their aid. Ever watch an animal run through stickers & brambles while chasing prey? They seem oblivious to pain. Certain levels of pain for animals may just be another sensory perception that is not judged as positive or negative, it just is. And if it comes while fulfilling an instinct behavior, such as hunting or fleeing, then the brain may be relatively oblivious to it.

Suffering is also comparative. If you were raised in a cage (what most of us consider a torturous experience), then suddenly putting you in a field or forest or on a city street (i.e. setting you free) would be a terrifying and traumatic experience.

[Camo]

Yeah, Insects have complex and productive lives. I'm not a Vegan and have no intention of becoming one so my posts don't hold as much weight i suppose. Still i don't see how eating an insect is any less morally than killing/eating say a snail or a frog that lives similar, in some cases a lesser life. Pain is something that is difficult to measure with such small lifeforms, obviously we can kill them quick and easy but we can do the same to a small frog for instance. Obviously, this is where the lifestyle gets complex because plants are usually used as an argument against Veganism

[NedStark09]

In the Bible God wanted man to eat from the land (vegetables) and the sea (seafood). He warned against eating red or white meat. :yup:
He is the one being God who has Jesus turn water in wine. I wonder if it was red or white wine. Im quite sure Jesus and his fallowers were tired of Fish and Bread. I am betting a Few alter sheep came up missing during those days. Where in the bible did it say God only wants thy too eat Fish and no Pork, Beef or Turkey.

[Pussy Galore]

It's a question in applied ethics, if I'm wrong when I say that insect feel no pain at all or very little pain then I wouldn't eat them.

The idea is that I refuse to eat other beings just because they are not from the sae species then me. I think I have found a criteria that is unbiased which is the notion of interest.

If insects have interest then I don't think we should eat them, I find your arguments convincing Miss Vicky.

Now that I admit that I wouldn't eat insects, I wonder why wouldn't you mind eating them or any other animals.

[Captain Steel]

My guess is plants don't feel pain because they don't have a central nervous system like higher forms of animals. Pain is caused by stimulus to nerve endings that send electrical impulses to a nervous system that sends signals to the brain. Based on biology, plants don't have nerve endings or a nervous system.

On the topic of pain in animals, I just read that "pain is not a sensation, it is an interpretation of a sensation."
This may well be true as there are even some humans who have conditioned their brains so that they can reinterpret pain and thereby have an extreme tolerance to it or just not react to it as average humans would.
I think when we talk about pain or discomfort in animals we are most likely anthropomorphizing the idea.

[Miss Vicky]

I think when we talk about pain or discomfort in animals we are most likely anthropomorphizing the idea.
I'm guessing you don't spend much time around animals.

[Captain Steel]

I'm guessing you don't spend much time around animals.

The "higher" the animal (in our terms) the closer their reaction to pain will seem human-like to us.

There's also something to be said for domestication - it has removed a certain level of instinct from some of our pets and, I believe, transferred a certain portion of our own neuroses to them. I'm not sure how this works, but I've witnessed it.

I had an aunt who was always fearful and nervous, her dog was always fearful and nervous.

My parents have neighbors where the husband has some severe mental problems - their dog does not behave like a normal dog. The husband has demonstrated some self-destructive behaviors, the dog will rub it's nose on the floor in front of its food bowl until its nose bleeds (instead of just eating its food like most dogs would).

Conversely, I've seen dogs on the hunt rip through sharp thorns and barbed wire, cutting themselves to shreds, yet appearing to be having the time of their lives despite massive injuries and bleeding. Apparently, the hunting instinct (and most likely the adrenaline that goes with it) supersedes or cancels out all pain. Their minds become so focused on only one thing that pain does not seem to register.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Meanwhile - in Ethiopia....

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26708&stc=1&d=1471762785

Tell them about how you'll refuse a hamburger and a chicken sandwich and a porterhouse steak because you're choosing to live on a diet of carrots, celery and almond milk. For philosophical reasons.

[Miss Vicky]

Now that I admit that I wouldn't eat insects, I wonder why wouldn't you mind eating them or any other animals.

Well I would mind eating insects, but that's more of a visual and textural thing than anything else. I also object to it on the basis of how many lives must be taken in order to provide even a single meal vs the consuming of larger animals. It also irritates me when people place higher value on the lives of one species of non-human animal over another based on perceived emotional or physical capacities, because in the end we don't actually know how much any life form suffers.

Also as I already said, we cannot survive without feeding on other life forms. It's simply not possible. I also don't buy the notion that humans are meant to be vegan - especially considering the nutritional deficiencies that can arise from veganism or vegetarianism. I've experienced health problems personally that I believe to be either caused or aggravated by my eating habits when I was a vegetarian - in particular with my body's hormonal imbalance and overproduction of testosterone. I suspect that this may have been caused or at least aggravated by my consumption of soy, which contains relatively high levels of phytoestrogens, though admittedly I don't have verifiable proof of this. I have also seen associated health problems - in particular Vitamin B12 deficiency - occur in friends that have converted to vegetarianism despite supplementation and eating fortified foods.

At this point in my life I've come to the conclusion that the consumption of meat isn't in and of itself immoral. Nor is the killing of another life form in the name of food or the protection of self or loved ones. What is immoral to me is the manner in which food animals are housed, treated, and slaughtered. I don't think the meat and dairy industries need to be shut down and abolished completely. Instead I think they and animal welfare laws need some drastic reformation.

[Pussy Galore]

Meanwhile the result of you wanting to eat a burger just because you like it.
https://jiltvschayik.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/dsc02507.jpg

I'm also into effective altruism, (the notion that we have a moral obligation to give an important part of our incomes to charity). Which help children starving in Ethiopia. Actually one of the most efficient way to give to charity is to give to charities that buy nets that protects people from being sting by venomous insects. I suggest you the website https://www.thelifeyoucansave.org/ which is a lot more eloquent then me to explain effective altruism.

By the way, it's not because people suffer in Ethiopia that we shouldn't consider the suffering of animals, these are 2 different things (that are both terrible). You seem to misunderstand what philosophy is, you seem to say that it is just vague non important discourse for rich people, it isn't that. It's the search for truth, and truth include the fact that there are people suffering.

[Sexy Celebrity]

BEFORE:

https://jiltvschayik.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/dsc02507.jpg

AFTER:

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26709&stc=1&d=1471764203

Time heals all wounds.

[Camo]

lol. Pretty sure you aren't allowed to post violent imagery here. And i'm pretty sure that's the most pathetic argument you could ever resort to anyway.

Stay classy PG!

[Pussy Galore]

Well I would mind eating insects, but that's more of a visual and textural thing than anything else. I also object to it on the basis of how many lives must be taken in order to provide even a single meal vs the consuming of larger animals. It also irritates me when people place higher value on the lives of one species of non-human animal over another based on perceived emotional or physical capacities, because in the end we don't actually know how much any life form suffers.
I would say that we know that certain animals suffer, but we don't know if plant do. Hence, eating the second one would be the rationnal choice. (Lets say all species of non human animals are equal)


Also as I already said, we cannot survive without feeding on other life forms. It's simply not possible. I also don't buy the notion that humans are meant to be vegan - especially considering the nutritional deficiencies that can arise from veganism or vegetarianism. I've experienced health problems personally that I believe to be either caused or aggravated by my eating habits when I was a vegetarian - in particular with my body's hormonal imbalance and overproduction of testosterone. I suspect that this may have been caused or at least aggravated by my consumption of soy, which contains relatively high levels of phytoestrogens, though admittedly I don't have verifiable proof of this. I have also seen associated health problems - in particular Vitamin B12 deficiency - occur in friends that have converted to vegetarianism despite supplementation and eating fortified foods.
That seems fair to me, I don't buy the way most vegan seem to say that adopting the lifestyle makes you healthier, it doesn't seem true to me. However, what I can assure you is that if you take B12 supplemantation and take enough protein (from beans, tofu, quinoa, tempeh, fake meats, etc.) you can be an healthy vegan.

At this point in my life I've come to the conclusion that the consumption of meat isn't in and of itself immoral. Nor is the killing of another life form in the name of food or the protection of self or loved ones. What is immoral to me is the manner in which food animals are housed, treated, and slaughtered. I don't think the meat and dairy industries need to be shut down and abolished completely. Instead I think they and animal welfare laws need some drastic reformation.
That's better then nothing, I respectuflly disagree with you because I do think you can not eat meat and be healthy hence that the suffering you cause by choice is morally reprehensible, but I appreciate the fact that you don't support how it's done now.

Do you only eat free range meat? (Or any meat that you think isn't from factory farming)

[Miss Vicky]

The "higher" the animal (in our terms) the closer their reaction to pain will seem human-like to us.

There's also something to be said for domestication - it has removed a certain level of instinct from some of our pets and, I believe, transferred a certain portion of our own neuroses to them. I'm not sure how this works, but I've witnessed it.

I had an aunt who was always fearful and nervous, her dog was always fearful and nervous.

My parents have neighbors where the husband has some severe mental problems - their dog does not behave like a normal dog. The husband has demonstrated some self-destructive behaviors, the dog will rub it's nose on the floor in front of its food bowl until its nose bleeds (instead of just eating its food like most dogs would).

Conversely, I've seen dogs on the hunt rip through sharp thorns and barbed wire, cutting themselves to shreds, yet appearing to be having the time of their lives despite massive injuries and bleeding. Apparently, the hunting instinct (and most likely the adrenaline that goes with it) supersedes or cancels out all pain. Their minds become so focused on only one thing that pain does not seem to register.

I've seen animals cry out in anticipation of pain or other negative stimulus. I've also seen the drastic difference in behavior between animals with untreated injuries and those who've been given analgesic drugs - the very same drugs used to control pain in humans.

I've seen humans engage in fighting of some kind or another and suffer pretty horrific injuries without much reaction in the moment, thanks to adrenaline and focus on a particular task. It should also be noted that animals will instinctually try to disguise pain lest it be perceived as weakness either by predator or competitor.

[Pussy Galore]

lol. Pretty sure you aren't allowed to post violent imagery here. And i'm pretty sure that's the most pathetic argument you could ever resort to anyway.

Stay classy PG!

The image wasn't the argument, the argument was below it. It was just a response to the one SC posted, showing that the image of starving children makes us inconfortable, but it's the same for factory farming.

I don't see what is problematic with that.

[Camo]

For the record i didn't see SC's Ethiopia post, still think that was pretty pathetic though.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Ehhhh. I didn't think it was pathetic. You're just worried about him posting a gruesome image.

[Camo]

Ehhhh. I didn't think it was pathetic. You're just worried about him posting a gruesome image.

Worried? Worried of what? Pretty sure i've been around more dead animals than either you or PG.

[Miss Vicky]

That's better then nothing, I respectuflly disagree with you because I do think you can not eat meat and be healthy hence that the suffering you cause by choice is morally reprehensible, but I appreciate the fact that you don't support how it's done now.

I don't think death and suffering are necessarily synonymous. So there's another way we disagree.

Do you only eat free range meat? (Or any meat that you think isn't from factory farming)

No, I don't. I eat what I can afford. I have however voted in support of measures that improve the quality of life of food animals.

[Pussy Galore]

For the record i didn't see SC's Ethiopia post, still think that was pretty pathetic though.

I don't think the simple fact of showing a shocking image is pathetic. These are things that really happen in the world, blinding us from it doesn't change the fact that it is true.

What might be problematic is if you use the image itself as the only argument you have to defend your point.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Worried? Worried of what? Pretty sure i've been around more dead animals than either you or PG.

Worried about it being not allowed -- to post here on this site.

[Pussy Galore]

I don't think death and suffering are necessarily synonymous. So there's another way we disagree.
They aren't, however you can be sure that the meat that you buy at the supermarket that comes from factory farming comes from an animal that suffered, had a terrible life and was killed and all that because of us.

I think it is an interesting question to ask if it is morally acceptable to kill an animal if he doesn't suffer at all in the process, I actually don't have an answer to that.



No, I don't. I eat what I can afford. I have however voted in support of measures that improve the quality of life of food animals.
You can afford buying free range meat, but buying less I'm sure. It might be a good beggining. I actually think that even if you are not vegan or vegetarian just reducing your consumption of animal product contributes to making a world a better place. So if I can humbly encourage you to try your best to do that then I'd be very happy :)

[Sexy Celebrity]

I feel bad that animals have to suffer to become our food. Really, I do. I don't laugh at their suffering. They are cursed creatures. They're f***ed. But that's life. That's one of the horrors of life. Life's not pretty. Everything suffers in some way. Some have it much easier, of course. We're f***ed, too. We have horrors we have to go through, as well. But maybe a nice meatball sub will ease the pain.

[Pussy Galore]

If by your actions you can make their life less f***ed as it is and continue to live your life without much change why wouldn't you do it?

[Miss Vicky]

You can afford buying free range meat, but buying less I'm sure.

Honestly? That's not going to happen.

I actually found that when I gave up vegetarianism, increased my consumption of lean meat and decreased my consumption of carbohydrates, my health improved pretty drastically.

Also, the "free range" label is no guarantee of humane treatment (http://www.upc-online.org/freerange.html) and strikes me as more of a marketing ploy than anything else.

[Daniel M]

I feel bad that animals have to suffer to become our food. Really, I do. I don't laugh at their suffering. They are cursed creatures. They're f***ed. But that's life. That's one of the horrors of life. Life's not pretty. Everything suffers in some way. Some have it much easier, of course. We're f***ed, too. We have horrors we have to go through, as well. But maybe a nice meatball sub will ease the pain.

I think a lot of people, in simple terms, see life as one of two ways.

We live, we die, we suffer, so make the most of it and enjoy it, even if its at the expense of other animals (including humans) at times.

We live, we die, we suffer, so try and make life better for other animals (including humans), so that there is less suffering and more people enjoy life in the future.

Like imagine if some alien species took over the earth, there was nothing we could do to stop them or anything, they have their own food that they need to survive, but they choose to eat us anyway because we taste nice. You would try and beg and plead with them and stop them, but there's nothing you could do. You could only hope they would realise what they are doing is causing pain and suffering that they themselves wouldn't want to experience, and that they would eventually stop.

I just think, mainly, treat others how you hope to be treated. Being born as a human, who you are, it's like a lottery draw, there's no choice and it's down to luck what sort of privileged and advantage you have over other humans and animals. What if you had been less lucky and born as say a cow? You would have no choice and your fate would be in the hands and lie with whatever level of compassion and such that those above you have.

[Pussy Galore]

Not all free range meat are necessarilly the same, but what I'd so if I decided to eat some would be to investigate the different brand available. I'd call the farms, or even better go there to see myself.

Then I'd say it's a dilemma between your health that is better because of lean meat (I'm sure you could be very healthy while being vegan also) or the suffering of the animal that die for you to sustain such a lifestyle. If you're okay with it then I can't say anything else then telling you I think it's immoral (while still respecting as a person and not saying you're a bad person for it).

[Sexy Celebrity]

If by your actions you can make their life less f***ed as it is and continue to live your life without much change why wouldn't you do it?

What would I get in return? Sure, if we all stopped eating meat, there would be millions of happy, smiling cows all over the world, but imagine what WE might turn into. Especially if we're all just eating apples all day long.

We'd all kill each other. We'd get all frustrated, nobody would be killing animals, so we'd all turn on each other. We'd all be unhappy going without meat. And I'm not kidding -- I seriously think that would be the case. I think killing animals and eating meat might be something that prevents us from doing worse. 'Cause you cannot just live in La La Land and think that taking away all of these "terrible" things is really going to make the world absolutely sparkling perfect. We would alter how we behave on this planet if we all stopped eating meat, and maybe not in a good way.

[Miss Vicky]

What would I get in return? Sure, if we all stopped eating meat, there would be millions of happy, smiling cows all over the world

Actually, there wouldn't be. They'd either be slaughtered to feed other animals or abandoned because they'd be useless to the farmers - in which case they'd be a threat to natural habitats and native species, as pretty much all introduced species are assuming they don't starve to death in their pens first.

[Daniel M]

And this is probably going to be controversial, but I honestly think that religion heavily comes into play with this.

Like a lot of humans, in my opinion, have a false sense of individuality and believe that they are special creatures that have a divine right, they are a superior species created by a power that has given them a greater purpose than all those animals below them.

I'm reminded of this scene in True Detective

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8x73UW8Hjk

What seperates us from animals is the fact that we have developed the human consciousness over time which has given us the illusion that we are somehow all special, that our life has meaning, that we are in control of something greater, when the fact is that we are all just animals just like cows, pigs, whatever. We are animals at the end of day that live and die. Like I said, who you are, it's a lottery draw, but people take this chance for granted and seem to disregard that they just so easily could have been born as someone or something else. I reiterate, I believe we should be grateful of our privileged position and use it in the long term to improve the life of all species, maximising the level of enjoyment for all humans (I'm a big believer in charity and such), and all animals, for the limited time each and every one of them has in this world, because we could have been any of them.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Actually, there wouldn't be. They'd either be slaughtered to feed other animals or abandoned because they'd be useless to the farmers - in which case they'd be a threat to natural habitats and native species, as pretty much all introduced species are assuming they don't starve to death in their pens first.

Well, thank you. Even my idea that the cows would be happy is just a "perfect fantasy" that probably wouldn't even come true.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Like imagine if some alien species took over the earth, there was nothing we could do to stop them or anything, they have their own food that they need to survive, but they choose to eat us anyway because we taste nice. You would try and beg and plead with them and stop them, but there's nothing you could do. You could only hope they would realise what they are doing is causing pain and suffering that they themselves wouldn't want to experience, and that they would eventually stop.

I just think, mainly, treat others how you hope to be treated. Being born as a human, who you are, it's like a lottery draw, there's no choice and it's down to luck what sort of privileged and advantage you have over other humans and animals. What if you had been less lucky and born as say a cow? You would have no choice and your fate would be in the hands and lie with whatever level of compassion and such that those above you have.

I could have been a cow. We could all be food for aliens. Yes.

Seriously -- if you want to live a vegetarian life, by all means, do it. It's possible, so go ahead and do it. But you're lucky that it's possible for you. You are lucky. 'Cause you could be a starving person in Ethiopia who could really use a bologna sandwich.

[jiraffejustin]

I think we should do our best to help other species evolve into the point where they are just as advanced as we are, so that someday they can eat us.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I think we should do our best to help other species evolve into the point where they are just as advanced as we are, so that someday they can eat us.

There ARE animals that can eat us right now.

[jiraffejustin]

There ARE animals that can eat us right now.

Not regularly though. I think humans have a moral obligation to help promote the evolutionary growth of multiple species that will take our place on the food chain and bring us the suffering we've brought to all the species just because we are hungry and we don't like eating things we grow in the ground. In this future that we need to bring forward, we won't have to worry about anything that cattle don't worry nowadays. We will just be slaughter fodder, the scenes No Country Old Men where Anton Chigurh uses the cattle killer on people will be representative of the most common death for all of mankind. In a way, you can see how Cormac McCarthy really is pointing out the morally reprehensible nature of human beings who irresponsibly exploit their position on the food chain. I think all non-veg*ns should take a good hard look in the mirror, or just a general reflection producer because I know most other non-human non-veg*ns don't have access to mirrors, and then and only then will the wrongs be set right.

[77topaz]

I could have been a cow. We could all be food for aliens. Yes.

Seriously -- if you want to live a vegetarian life, by all means, do it. It's possible, so go ahead and do it. But you're lucky that it's possible for you. You are lucky. 'Cause you could be a starving person in Ethiopia who could really use a bologna sandwich.

It takes a lot more land area to produce a certain amount of meat compared to an equal amount of crops. So, vegan food would actually be more useful for helping those starving people in Ethiopia.

[Omnizoa]

I completely understand where you're coming from. As of now, I think both of you may have hit a wall and at this point it's all miscommunication and defense mechanisms. You should both put the sarcasm and jokes aside and just be upfront.
I don't like false neutrality, MonnoM, it's an incredibly dishonest approach to conversation.

Are there people who won't eat any meat, but will make an exception for insects (like the Pescetarians make for fish?)
I've never heard of such a thing though I'm sure it exists.

I would eat insects, because they don't suffer.
That is most certainly not vegetarian.

I think the notion that insects don't suffer is BS. The idea that because a creature doesn't experience things in the same way as us that means it's not capable of suffering is arrogance.
What she said.

What you seem to value is the notion of life, I don't give it any sort of value. A plant lives, but I don't give it any moral worth.

What I seem to care is the notion of interest, a being who has interest deserves moral recognition, how can I know if a being has interest? I ask if the being is sentient, but I see it more as a continuum then has a strict distinction between anything that is sentient and anything that isn't.
Animals have an interest in self preservation which applies to even the smallest of creatures, however perceivable suffering...

Have you never seen an insect panic or struggle for it's life?

Yes, plants probably feel some measure of discomfort too,
If there's any evidence of that at all, it would be in breeds of incredibly rare plant-animal hybrids like the mesodinium chamaeleon (http://www.movieforums.com/community/Mesodinium chamaeleon) which as far as I know are all microscopic with no recognized nervous system.

Insects and other arthropods have legs, mouths and eyes. They move about like we do. Some live in social groups and work together to collect or raise food and to rear their young. There are insects that grow crops, keep livestock, make war with each other and even enslave the offspring of defeated enemies. They're far more complex in behavior than people give them credit for and it seems just as likely that they're more complex in other ways too.
Spot on.

If insects have interest then I don't think we should eat them, I find your arguments convincing Miss Vicky.
PBBFFFTT! Well damn. Game changer.

I think animals don't really have a concept of future - they live only in the present moment.
A quick Google search will show there's little credibility for the goldfish memory theory.

Think of how much suffering we cause by our arrogant assumptions before we inevitably prove ourselves wrong.

Ever watch an animal run through stickers & brambles while chasing prey? They seem oblivious to pain.
That's raw conjecture. Ever met somebody who doesn't wear shoes? Walk and run around where they do and your feet will be killing you, but they're used to that environment, they built up callouses to that sort of thing and given the "chasing prey" scenario, that's sort of like saying someone running down the street from gun-toting gangbangers "doesn't care about babies" because they tripped over a stroller.

There are probably some priorities at play here.

I had an aunt who was always fearful and nervous, her dog was always fearful and nervous.
You have some bizarre theories.

Conversely, I've seen dogs on the hunt rip through sharp thorns and barbed wire, cutting themselves to shreds, yet appearing to be having the time of their lives despite massive injuries and bleeding.
And some of us freeboard off the sides of mountains despite breaking our bones multiple times. There's stupidity and lack of self-preservation in all animals, and there's great intelligence and overcaution as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsXP8qeFF6A


Obviously, this is where the lifestyle gets complex because plants are usually used as an argument against Veganism
What do you mean?

Meanwhile - in Ethiopia....
Sorry Sexy, but here's the thing, I just like eating little Ethiopian children. I once saw one of those video and gave it up for a little while BUT I GOT OVER IT.

...in the end we don't actually know how much any life form suffers...

...we cannot survive without feeding on other life forms.
So why put animals at risk?

I also don't buy the notion that humans are meant to be vegan
You mean biologically? Well we've got that appendix thing that way back in the day used to help us digest plants... but then we got into the whole meat and cooking craze and now it likes to kill us.

especially considering the nutritional deficiencies that can arise from veganism or vegetarianism.
Eat smart and you'll have no issues. Like I said, you're not risk free on a carnist diet either.

I have also seen associated health problems - in particular Vitamin B12 deficiency - occur in friends that have converted to vegetarianism despite supplementation and eating fortified foods.
It's an easy easy easy fix unless they have pre-existing health concerns.

At this point in my life I've come to the conclusion that the consumption of meat isn't in and of itself immoral.
But supporting slaughter is and that conflicts with your other pre-existing values which are biased and logically inconsistent.

I think it is an interesting question to ask if it is morally acceptable to kill an animal if he doesn't suffer at all in the process, I actually don't have an answer to that.
I do, it is an act at the sharp expense of the animal's well-being. Less so than prolonged torture, but still so.

I feel bad that animals have to suffer to become our food. Really, I do. I don't laugh at their suffering. They are cursed creatures. They're f***ed. But that's life.
No, that's you and your attitude and your cognitive dissonance.

You're the cause. It's your fault. Stop doing it, get over it, and feel better about yourself.

That's one of the horrors of life.
That's humanity.

Also, the "free range" label is no guarantee of humane treatment (http://www.upc-online.org/freerange.html) and strikes me as more of a marketing ploy than anything else.
It is one of many.

I think a lot of people, in simple terms, see life as one of two ways.

We live, we die, we suffer, so make the most of it and enjoy it, even if its at the expense of other animals (including humans) at times.

We live, we die, we suffer, so try and make life better for other animals (including humans), so that there is less suffering and more people enjoy life in the future.

Like imagine if some alien species took over the earth, there was nothing we could do to stop them or anything, they have their own food that they need to survive, but they choose to eat us anyway because we taste nice. You would try and beg and plead with them and stop them, but there's nothing you could do. You could only hope they would realise what they are doing is causing pain and suffering that they themselves wouldn't want to experience, and that they would eventually stop.

I just think, mainly, treat others how you hope to be treated. Being born as a human, who you are, it's like a lottery draw, there's no choice and it's down to luck what sort of privileged and advantage you have over other humans and animals. What if you had been less lucky and born as say a cow? You would have no choice and your fate would be in the hands and lie with whatever level of compassion and such that those above you have.
Can't fault the golden rule, very well said. :up:

What would I get in return?
:facepalm:

We'd all kill each other. We'd get all frustrated, nobody would be killing animals, so we'd all turn on each other. We'd all be unhappy going without meat. And I'm not kidding -- I seriously think that would be the case.
Is this what is called the Appeal To Apocalypse?

[Swan]

Don't want to come off as having a hand in one side of the debate or another, just trying to promote fruitful discussion here.

I think a lot of people, in simple terms, see life as one of two ways.

We live, we die, we suffer, so make the most of it and enjoy it, even if its at the expense of other animals (including humans) at times.

We live, we die, we suffer, so try and make life better for other animals (including humans), so that there is less suffering and more people enjoy life in the future.

Like imagine if some alien species took over the earth, there was nothing we could do to stop them or anything, they have their own food that they need to survive, but they choose to eat us anyway because we taste nice. You would try and beg and plead with them and stop them, but there's nothing you could do. You could only hope they would realise what they are doing is causing pain and suffering that they themselves wouldn't want to experience, and that they would eventually stop.

I just think, mainly, treat others how you hope to be treated. Being born as a human, who you are, it's like a lottery draw, there's no choice and it's down to luck what sort of privileged and advantage you have over other humans and animals. What if you had been less lucky and born as say a cow? You would have no choice and your fate would be in the hands and lie with whatever level of compassion and such that those above you have.

What seperates us from animals is the fact that we have developed the human consciousness over time which has given us the illusion that we are somehow all special, that our life has meaning, that we are in control of something greater, when the fact is that we are all just animals just like cows, pigs, whatever. We are animals at the end of day that live and die. Like I said, who you are, it's a lottery draw, but people take this chance for granted and seem to disregard that they just so easily could have been born as someone or something else. I reiterate, I believe we should be grateful of our privileged position and use it in the long term to improve the life of all species, maximising the level of enjoyment for all humans (I'm a big believer in charity and such), and all animals, for the limited time each and every one of them has in this world, because we could have been any of them.

I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, but....

1. If I could be eaten for the benefit of another animal, I think I might sacrifice myself. It's a tough question though because I don't like the idea of being eaten out of pure gluttony (the thought just makes me sickened by myself and my eating addiction), but if it was to save a starving creature? I might sacrifice myself. It's a loaded question.

2. The whole True Detective thing is one of the reasons I've always been okay with eating meat. Makes me feel nihilistic to the point where if nothing matters, neither do other lives. If I can die without consequence or meaning, so will other people and other animals.

Again I don't stand by these philosophies anymore really, just want to play devil's advocate here. And yeah, don't use the damn True Detective clip because that could easily be interpreted another way bro. :p

Seriously -- if you want to live a vegetarian life, by all means, do it. It's possible, so go ahead and do it. But you're lucky that it's possible for you. You are lucky. 'Cause you could be a starving person in Ethiopia who could really use a bologna sandwich.

Maybe the fact that we have the power to be vegetarian means we should use that power? There is no need to guilt people trying to be vegetarian/vegan. Some of us have the choice to be vegetarian or not, and maybe they should be free to choose.

[seanc]

And this is probably going to be controversial, but I honestly think that religion heavily comes into play with this.

Like a lot of humans, in my opinion, have a false sense of individuality and believe that they are special creatures that have a divine right, they are a superior species created by a power that has given them a greater purpose than all those animals below them.


What seperates us from animals is the fact that we have developed the human consciousness over time which has given us the illusion that we are somehow all special, that our life has meaning, that we are in control of something greater, when the fact is that we are all just animals just like cows, pigs, whatever. We are animals at the end of day that live and die. Like I said, who you are, it's a lottery draw, but people take this chance for granted and seem to disregard that they just so easily could have been born as someone or something else. I reiterate, I believe we should be grateful of our privileged position and use it in the long term to improve the life of all species, maximising the level of enjoyment for all humans (I'm a big believer in charity and such), and all animals, for the limited time each and every one of them has in this world, because we could have been any of them.

Isn't telling us dillusional theists that our illusions of being created by a greater power for a purpose is hog wash but then telling us we should use our superior position to help all living creatures a little hypocritical. Those two thoughts seem to be at odds with each other.

[TONGO]

He is the one being God who has Jesus turn water in wine. I wonder if it was red or white wine. Im quite sure Jesus and his fallowers were tired of Fish and Bread. I am betting a Few alter sheep came up missing during those days. Where in the bible did it say God only wants thy too eat Fish and no Pork, Beef or Turkey.

Here -
http://biblehub.com/leviticus/11-9.htm

If I ever wanted to stop eating red or white meat, I would. Id still eat fish.......not a porpoise or a whale (no scales), but eating fish is ethical. :yup:

[Omnizoa]

2. The whole True Detective thing is one of the reasons I've always been okay with eating meat. Makes me feel nihilistic to the point where if nothing matters, neither do other lives. If I can die without consequence or meaning, so will other people and other animals.
Daniel M certainly never said anything to that effect that. How do you come to that conclusion?

Maybe the fact that we have the power to be vegetarian means we should use that power? There is no need to guilt people trying to be vegetarian/vegan. Some of us have the choice to be vegetarian or not, and maybe they should be free to choose.
Everyone has the choice, if there are any exceptions it's one person forcibly imposing carnism upon another.

Isn't telling us dillusional theists that our illusions of being created by a greater power for a purpose is hog wash but then telling us we should use our superior position to help all living creatures a little hypocritical. Those two thoughts seem to be at odds with each other.
Not even remotely. There is arrogance in the assumption, there is humility in the concession.

eating fish is ethical.
Define "ethical".

[Swan]

Daniel M certainly never said anything to that effect that. How do you come to that conclusion?

I meant that that is what the True Detective video makes me think. There is no obvious pathway from what is said in the video to what Daniel said, so I don't think using that video is very good because you can come to different conclusions about the philosophies it leads to.

[TONGO]

Define "ethical".

You could have Googled it yourself -

of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these.

If you dont want to eat fish Omni thats fine. Dont take a stance of ethics against someone that does though.

[Omnizoa]

You could have Googled it yourself -

of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these.

If you dont want to eat fish Omni thats fine. Dont take a stance of ethics against someone that does though.
I most certainly will, now let's see what you've ultimately said here:

Eating fish is ethical.

is now

Eating fish is relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these.

Try again.

[christine]

Woo... ummm...

Well, I never had any problems going vegan overnight. Just cut off buying non-vegan stuff one day and just finished what was left in the fridge. My seamless experience with it is a big reason I really rankle at people who complain about it being "too hard" or say their cravings cause them to fall off the boat.

I'm a LONGTIME cheese-eater and cheese is considered to be near addictive in some circles. I used to love homemade cheese burritos and going vegan effectively ended my relationship with my favorite food: pineapple pizza calzones.

So when people say they miss it too much or they can't give it up or they "can't imagine" it, it really annoys me because it tells me that that person has extremely poor willpower. And people who let themselves be pushed around or become subservient to the status quo because "it's too hard to be different" thoroughly repel me as human beings.

This perspective invades the rest of my life and is exactly why I'm typing up this message on a Dvorak keyboard.

Granted, I had the advantage of already being vegetarian before I went vegan, but the real issue for people, which several have brought up already, is that they simply don't understand how simple it is to cut out the dairy and meat strata of the food pyramid.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=26687&stc=1&d=1471646537


If they're concerned about their health they can look it up, nowadays, with the internet they have no excuse not to do it right.


Moving on, I've been heckled for being veg*n my whole life, ever since kindergarten people have made fun of me for not eating meat or not going to church or not subscribing to some other thing in their lives they just assumed must be important.

I can see why a lot of people would crumble under the pressure, but for me it was always a simple matter: that first time you look at your cat and think about the fact that people think it's okay to eat him and many of the other animals like him, it just never sat with me. So it's always been a simple cost/benefit analysis: Do I want to appease these people making fun of me? Or do I want to hate myself?

There's no contest.

Nowadays my biggest issue is with other veg*ns, honestly. There's the problem as I've described with freeganism, there's the daunting number of veg*ns who forfeit their veg*nism at the desert island scenario, and altogether, I just don't give a **** about what they give a **** about.

They cook, I don't.
They garden, I don't.
They keep pets, I don't.
They perform activism and WRITE ME OFF for not sacrificing my life for the cause, that's not how it works, I don't buy into compulsive charity, I have no moral obligation to empty my pockets at the sight of a homeless person on the side of the street.

I have my own ways of provoking change. I like movies, I like video games, I like music, I have a ton of hobbies that are totally neglected in those sorts of communities and that's why I'm here.

that's a lot to take in! I was specifically interested in the part of your statement about considering yourself freegan and how that works in your life - I mean do you forage for food for example?

"As for myself, I've been vegetarian my whole life, have been vegan for many years (I forget how long), and would even consider myself freegan insofar as people are capable of handling that sort of discussion.

but going back to your reply, well done for being able to cut out non vegan foods in one fell swoop, that's good strength of will - specially cheese! I know I'd be struggling with cheese :D. Some people do struggle I know that and people do have willpower issues, it's part of being a human being, but it is harsh to say they repel you Omni :(

Please don't take this as a criticism, it's just an observation on the language you're using but there seems to be a lot of you against the world in your writings, I just wonder what kind of community you live in? Looking around me in my culture and community I don't feel that it's any business of mine to comment on what other people eat or think it's any damn business of theirs what I eat, and I actually think no one really gives a stuff. I'm thinking if we can just eat more food made from scratch and not processed into crap we'd all be better off.

Being a vegan or a vegetarian or going to church or not going to church doesn't seem to be something that's a reason to dislike or criticise other people for. When you wrote "Do I want to appease these people making fun of me? Or do I want to hate myself?" That's awful, I'm glad you can see beyond that because that's just not right.

I do think the desert island scenario is pretty funny really. I defy people who say they know how they would act. People can talk about such things till the cows come home, but until they are there and then in life threatening circumstances, I'm not having it that there's any certainties. :D

Let me know about the freegan thing in your life tho as it's pretty interesting - not the vegans forfeiting their lifestyle when faced with free goods, I'm not interested in them, that's up to them I don't care. I'm more interested in people who have negotiated deals with supermarkets to take excess food instead of wasting it. People who use food beyond sell by dates, stuff like that.

[TONGO]

I most certainly will, now let's see what you've ultimately said here:

Eating fish is ethical.

is now

Eating fish is relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these.

Try again.

Actually you need to try again cause youre to busy trying to twist my words rather than communicate. There is nothing ethically wrong in eating fish. So try again.

[Omnizoa]

Actually you need to try again cause youre to busy trying to twist my words rather than communicate. There is nothing ethically wrong in eating fish. So try again.
Don't lie, you know there's no twisting of words here, I'm asking you point-blank to explain what you mean. Define "ethically wrong".

If you can't define it then there's nothing preventing me from saying "kicking babies is ethical."

[seanc]

Not even remotely. There is arrogance in the assumption, there is humility in the concession.

You are going to have to expound on that. There is humility in believing we naturally evolved to be superior but arrogance in believing that there is something greater than ourselves that we are subject to? To believe there is a design and purpose to our world is arrogant while believing in the randomness of an evolved mind from imperceptible molecules is a sign of humility?

I'm not following that logic at all.

[TONGO]

Don't lie, you know there's no twisting of words here, I'm asking you point-blank to explain what you mean. Define "ethically wrong".

If you can't define it then there's nothing preventing me from saying "kicking babies is ethical."


No youre trying to turn this into a grammar/definition contest and avoiding the point of your thread.

Now at this point I say "So youre comparing eating fish to kicking babies?" and then you say "Thats not what Im saying, youre using strawman, and blah blah blah blah"

So instead - How is eating fish unethical?

[Daniel M]

How is eating fish unethical?

It's killing a living animal?

[jiraffejustin]

It's killing a living animal?

No, it's eating a (presumably) dead animal.

[Swan]

No, it's eating a (presumably) dead animal.

Not if you're the dude in Oldboy!

[TONGO]

It's killing a living animal?

Why do you think killing of an animal is wrong? Where do your ethics originate?

If its a matter of physical health then you know there isnt anything wrong health-wise to eating fish. Red and white meat I couldnt say that.

If your ethics originate from God, the Bible, then he came right out and practically said "eat the fish with the scales" and warned against eating meat.

If your ethics originate from all life should be revered then you cant even eat vegetables.

Ill say you dont want to kill intelligent life, Im assuming (not strawman) thats what you mean. Fish arent indicitave of any registerable intelligence. Their nervous systems dont register pain like we do. So if it moves dont kill it? Dont kill insects?

All Im saying there is nothing ethically wrong in eating fish. Nothing wrong in killing them if you are going to eat them. Just killing them is wrong, and that is unethical, not as unethical as shooting a dog per say though.