View Full Version : True Crime Thread
Me and Sean have been talking about the Serial Podcast and he is going to listen to the 2nd season along with me, so i think it is best we have a thread to discuss it rather than using the chill club all the time. I was initially going to make a Serial thread but he suggested a True Crime one and i think that would be better since there are other aspects of true crime i'm interested in. So yeah talk about anything crime related here basically. If anyone has watched or begins watching the first season of serial and want to discuss it please post here because it is still fresh in my mind and i've been wanting to discuss it with some people.
Serial Seasons 1 and 2:
https://serialpodcast.org/season-one
https://serialpodcast.org/season-two
Another True Crime podcast i've been listening to. Warning some of the episodes are extremely disturbing.
http://swordandscale.com/category/podcast/
I prefer fake law-abiding threads.
Thought i may as well post this here since there's a thread now. Sean these are the two episodes i was talking about:
http://swordandscale.com/sword-and-scale-episode-11/
http://swordandscale.com/sword-and-scale-episode-12/
Won't tell you anything about it just listen to them whenever you can and tell me what you think, it is a two part story and is pretty nuts.
Not sure if you heard about the Luka Magnotta case in the news a few years back. Even if you did i think you should listen to this one, it is very disturbing though. Made me think about Narcissism in a completely different way. It is another two part one:
http://swordandscale.com/sword-and-scale-episode-33/
http://swordandscale.com/sword-and-scale-episode-34/
Oh, I remember the Luka Magnotta case. That dude has evil in his eyes.
Cool Camo. Going to spend most of the day at the pool so I will try and do some listening this afternoon.
Oh, I remember the Luka Magnotta case. That dude has evil in his
eyes.
The scariest thing about that is that it was purely for fame. I honestly believe if he became a celebrity for regular reasons and this attention was sustained that he wouldn't have killed anybody, he would have always been capable of it but i don't think he would have.
Spoilered since Sean is going to listen to it.
The guy was auditioning for various reality shows and he makes it clear that he is fully willing to change anything about himself to get these positions. He says that he'd easily be able to gain weight when the male modeling show judges think he is too thin, he starts talking about the various other plastic surgeries he wants to get when the interviewer on the plastic surgery show (which shouldn't be a thing) seems pretty disinterested in the fact that he's only had hair transplants. Basically he craved attention so much and most of his attempts failed, he even made up a rumour himself that he was dating Karla Homolka (a Canadian Serial Killer) only to turn up at a Canadian Newspaper who had no clue this was even happening to deny he was dating her. Also he made videos of him killing kittens (POS :mad:) wearing a mask, then he contacted a group that was set up online to find out who this was to tell them it was him, and again he turned up at The Sun in London to say it wasn't him when they didn't have a clue this was even a thing. Same thing with his snuff film, he posted all over the internet asking if anyone knew where to find it so people got curious. The guy was seriously messed up.
Going to listen to the second episode of Serial soon, i'll post what i think here. It is going to be nuts listening to the Talibans version of events. They obviously aren't exactly "good" people and they have plenty of reasons to lie but they very well may be telling the truth.
So I listened to the first two episodes of season 2 of Serial. I am interested in where it goes so I will keep listening but I see why I stopped the first time. In the first season we get the perspective of two people who very well maybe complicit in a murder but we they could be innocent. So we have to decide the truth for ourselves. It is compelling and it makes me feel like I am getting some insight into human nature.
In season 2 I am not on the side of Berghdal even if he is telling 100% of the truth. He is either a deserter who went rouge and put 100's of his compatriots in mortal danger. Or he is a traitor who put 100's of US soldiers in danger. I am not on the side of either of these scenarios. It makes it very hard for me to listen to this man without my blood beginning to boil. The fact that Sarah again seems to be firmly in his camp is kind of baffling to me. I will be interested to hear your thoughts Camo. I have the next two episodes ready to go for the gym tomorrow night.
I also listened to the first episode of Sword And Scale about Magnotta. I am going to try and keep listening but I think this cast is going to be tough for me. I was all prepared to come in here and say that I really don't find his interviews for a plastic surgery reality show very relevant and pretty boring. Then I listened to the last ten minutes of this episode and found myself wishing for more plastic surgery interviews. If I see a piece about this on 20/20, I'm totally intrigued and on board. In this format I am not sure I am going to be game. I am going to listen to the next episode though and go from there.
That's awesome Sean :up:. Going to listen to episode 2 later after watching Lilya 4-Ever.
To your Magnotta post. Understand that, i'll say the second episode of the Magnotta one is better than the first, also more disturbing. Not all episodes are like this, there are plenty with mystery, twists, etc. I just personally found that one nuts since i wasn't familiar with Luka Magnotta's story. Hopefully you check out the other one i sent you before dropping it at least. Can i ask what your problems with the cast and format are?
That's awesome Sean :up:. Going to listen to episode 2 later after watching Lilya 4-Ever.
To your Magnotta post. Understand that, i'll say the second episode of the Magnotta one is better than the first, also more disturbing. Not all episodes are like this, there are plenty with mystery, twists, etc. I just personally found that one nuts since i wasn't familiar with Luka Magnotta's story. Hopefully you check out the other one i sent you before dropping it at least. Can i ask what your problems with the cast and format are?
Honestly I am too weak to listen to the real crime audio. I was getting queezy when they started playing that stuff. Even the two girls and a cup talk was getting to me.
The interview stuff I just didn't find that compelling. Not that the guy wasn't strange and self involved, he was, but the girl interviewing him was equally strange and she didn't chop anyone up. I feel like sometimes after someone commits a gruesome crime we think all the signs were there in places where they probably weren't. I don't know, I'm going to give the cast a chance, it was only my first listen.
Honestly I am too weak to listen to the real crime audio. I was getting queezy when they started playing that stuff. Even the two girls and a cup talk was getting to me.
The interview stuff I just didn't find that compelling. Not that the guy wasn't strange and self involved, he was, but the girl interviewing him was equally strange and she didn't chop anyone up. I feel like sometimes after someone commits a gruesome crime we think all the signs were there in places where they probably weren't. I don't know, I'm going to give the cast a chance, it was only my first listen.
Fair enough. I'm going to say don't listen to the second part then because that is about 20 times worse. I mean it features audio of peoples reactions to his snuff film, Give that one a miss trust me if part 1 was too much.
I would still suggest listening to the other two part one i posted, that isn't really disturbing and it isn't even really a crime, it is pretty sad at a few points but it is more about lies and twists.
Listened to it. A few of my random thoughts before i pick up on a few things you said.
Pretty good episode, there was some interesting stuff. I do think what she said about this being the interview with the taliban episode at the end of the first was a bit misleading. That was only really a small part. That is the major difference between this and the first season so far i think, this is a lot more scattered. In the first it was here is the episode about Jay, here is the episode about the alibi, the locations, etc. This is a bit less focused, it jumps around a bit more. I don't think it is neccessarily a bad thing, it's just that this is a lot more complicated than the Hae case for obvious reasons.
Putting Bowe's culpability aside for a second. One thing i am finding interesting even though it is only coming out in small bursts so far is how Bowe dealt with the situation, unless that was another misleading ending the next episode should be mostly about that. Whatever you think of Bowe, he went through something unbelievably terrifying (i agree it was his own fault) and i think what decisions and how he made them is very interesting. Your mind would be going a mile a minute trying to figure out how to convince them not to kill you, since he obviously didn't have a clue what they were going to do at this point. Like when the Taliban had asked Bowe if he was a big commander or an intelligence officer, this is something that is pretty much fact since both sides mentioned this. What would you say? For all you know they are going to kill you no matter what, and for all you know they are going to keep you alive for a bargaining tool no matter what. It would have to cross your mind that questions like that could decide whether you are going to live or not though. Hope there's a good bit more on what was said between Bowe and the Taliban especially in the early stages.
In season 2 I am not on the side of Berghdal even if he is telling 100% of the truth. He is either a deserter who went rouge and put 100's of his compatriots in mortal danger. Or he is a traitor who put 100's of US soldiers in danger. I am not on the side of either of these scenarios.
No, i agree with this. The minute he admitted this was partially about his ego, his wanting to be recognized as a brave "supersoldier" (his own words) in the first episode that was what it came down to for me too. Still i'm interested in finding out what the leadership was doing that was so bad, if this is has any truth to it. If it does then there could be others that should be condemned along with Bowe, not that this creates a reason for Bowe to have done what he did, and i fully believe he deserves(d) to get punished. I know that little that i don't even know if he has been sentenced or what, don't say obviously if you know. It was pretty bad hearing the danger he was putting others in, the boobytrapped place that was a Taliban ambush since they knew he was looking for Bowe sounded terrifying, even worse since the guy fully knew there was a chance of this happening but he had to follow orders of course. I'm sure there'll be a lot more of this including deaths.
l. The fact that Sarah again seems to be firmly in his camp is kind of baffling to me.
Can i ask what it is that makes you think this exactly? Not saying it isn't the case, just that i personally haven't picked up on it, not yet anyway. I may be overlooking/forgetting some stuff though, personally i thought two episodes into Season 1 she had shown more support for Adnan than she has for Bowe so far. Another thing is that this is a show, it is real life but it is still for entertainment. I think she needs to push the Pro-Bowe side a bit, and also in Season 1 she kind of flip flopped between the two sides. There'll be episodes from the other side i'm sure.
Yeah, she certainly never will say who she wants us to sympathize with. I always just feel she wants us to see things from his point of view thus far, and maybe that is the way it should be. I feel like she pressed with the soldiers who were saying they wanted to kill Bowe. That is indeed harsh, but it also felt like she was so shocked, when Bowe is putting them in grave danger. I don't know, maybe the way she was with Adnan is coloring my listening too. I will try and be more cognizant of it the next couple episodes.
I knew you were going to be disappointed with the interviews of the Taliban guy. I didn't say anything because I wanted to see if it was what you were expecting. You had mentioned it before I had relistened as well and had me second guessing if I had even listened to that episode because I didn't remember a Taliban interview. It was there, but uneventful to say the least.
Such a rare case, I want to hear more but I am having a hard time caring what Bowe has to say. Hopefully that will change.
feel like she pressed with the soldiers who were saying they wanted to kill Bowe. That is indeed harsh, but it also felt like she was so shocked, when Bowe is putting them in grave danger.
True. It could have been shock at them freely admitting this to her a civilian on a show, rather than shock at some feeling this. I remember that part but don't remember exactly what she said, so if it was clearly not that then point taken.
I knew you were going to be disappointed with the interviews of the Taliban guy. I didn't say anything because I wanted to see if it was what you were expecting. You had mentioned it before I had relistened as well and had me second guessing if I had even listened to that episode because I didn't remember a Taliban interview. It was there, but uneventful to say the least.
Yeah that was really disappointing. I'm guessing this was introducing the Taliban guy to the series so there should be more from him. I can't imagine she won't speak to him or someone else from the Taliban again, there's basically three stories or three versions of the same story here, Bowe's, the American Military's and the Taliban's.
Such a rare case
I actually forgot to say did i actually hear that right that he was the first US Soldier captured in Afghanistan? Or were they talking about under these sorts of circumstances? That is pretty astonishing if i'm not wrong and he was the first captured from 2001-2009.
I want to hear more but I am having a hard time caring what Bowe has to say.
Understandable, there's plenty of others she has to talk to though.
Looking forward to the next one.
I understood it as he was the first in Afghanistan as well. That is amazing.
Episode 3 definitely got my sympathies on Bowe's side. No humaan should have to go through the types of things he went through. The period of time makes me think I would have closed my eyes and tried to die. Humans treating each other this way is beyond my scope of reason. I still have the question of why he left his platoon in the back of my head, and I hope I get some satisfying answers to that. He had to know people would come for him and the danger he put his fellow troops in is almost equally unfathomable. Best episode so far.
I will move on to 4 when you weigh in on 3. Don't want to get too far ahead of you.
I'll get to episode 3 in a couple of hours hopefully.
Llstened to Episode 3:
Episode 3 definitely got my sympathies on Bowe's side
It personally didn't effect my view of things much at all because i've always felt bad for him after he was caught, i didn't know exactly what happened but i knew it was going to be horrible. i never thought Bowe was a Taliban Sympathizer or anything so all this did was make me feel more sorry for him after finding out exactly what he went through. I still split my thoughts of Bowe into before and after he was caught. Of course i feel really sorry for what happened to him after he was caught, giving him the benifit of the doubt that the Dustwun was something he had to do i still find it really stupid and reckless regardless of whether his intentions were good or not. The thing i keep going back to is his statements about this being partially fuelled by his ego, this takes back a lot of sympathy i have for him. Also i have to question why none of the other guys in his unit thought leadership was bad enough to complain, or why they didn't say this was what was possibly happening as soon as he went missing. If things were that bad surely they must of thought instantly he might be bringing a Dustwun for the reasons he stated. Do you remember if any of the guys who have been interviewed that were pissed with Bowe were actually from his unit? If they were then yeah i'm not really with Bowe at all.
I'm jumping way ahead, i'm hoping all this will be answered and i may have to eat my words when they are. Just explaining that while i fully sympathize with him after he was captured wouldn't wish that on anyone, but i am reserving full sympathy until i hear some good reasons for his actions that lead to this.
The period of time makes me think I would have closed my eyes and tried to die.
Same here. I don't think he'd admit this, i wouldn't either, but i have to wonder if his escape was a maybe somehow i'll get out of this if not i hope i'm killed.
Best episode so far.
Completely agree. Some random thoughts on the episode:
've never seen any of the videos he made and of course i knew that they'd be rehearsed, scripted, etc. It really took me aback how fake they sounded though, i mean what he was saying obviously reading from a script sounded like someone who didn't quite have a 100% grasp of English so there were some weird very minor things that you wouldn't expect a native english speaker to make.
The code of conduct is ridiculous. Sorry i'm not a soldier but c'mon. Also i don't get Sarah saying that this isn't their view when it is in their own rules. I don't know that part confused me. I've noticed Sarah dropping a few things in this Series without explaining how she knows this and it annoys me. She did the same with the rumours about Bowe's capture, she didn't say who she heard these rumours from and ugh. I know you could say the Code of Conduct thing is just common sense but she made it sound as if it is official Army policy not to stick by them. That is just dumb, why have these rules in the first place if they have no intention of following them. Not that i think they should be followed. They are ridiculous, they sound like they were written by someone who has never been in this situation think things should go. Unless they were all written by John McCain haha.
I could totally get one of the things that stuck with Bowe the most was being forced to watch execution videos. That must have seriously pyschologically scarred him. Not just from watching these horrible videos but from knowing while watching them that this may be how it all ends for him.
Good episode looking forward to the next. Are you listening to it tomorrow or what?
Yeah, I'll listen tomorrow. You listen with a much more critical ear than me, and I like that. I didn't think much about her blowing off the code of conduct policy. I just kind of took it as nobody can live up to it. You're right though she just kind of expects us to take what she says at face value.
I am so not on board with the my officers are stupid excuse. I don't know where this is going but he is going to have to shock me for me to be ok with him leaving. It's not going to happen.
You listen with a much more critical ear than me, and I like that.
You're right though she just kind of expects us to take what she says at face value.
I think it is just because i listened to Season 1 recently and after i was finished i started thinking about things and wondering why certain things weren't mentioned or clarified. And yeah she definitely does think that, first season i was a lot more captivated from the start so it just felt like a story to me instead of her interpretation of facts. Kind of makes me want to listen to Season 1 again and see if i missed her dropping in these bits of info that i took as fact without her mentioning how she knows this or were it originated from.
I am so not on board with the my officers are stupid excuse. I don't know where this is going but he is going to have to shock me for me to be ok with him leaving. It's not going to happen.
Unless i didn't understand her next episode description thing it sounds like he is going to be rescued earlier than i expected. Next episode or the one after i think, so this is when all of the explanations will come out. Looking forward to it. Can i ask if you knew anything about this case going in? I'm basically blind. I remember it happening, as soon as he was back i thought that's great and everyone else seemed to. It really shocked me when he started getting accused of being a traitor and everything but i didn't pay attention or looked into it really.
No, I'm pretty clueless. I remember the uproar and then I lost track. I don't think it is resolved yet either, could be wrong though.
Noticed an update on the Adnan case in the feed. I will be checking that out soon as well.
Noticed an update on the Adnan case in the feed. I will be checking that out soon as well.
Post whatever that is here if you can. Wonder if it is anything big, doubt it.
The last i heard was this from back in May that the Judge would be making a decision on whether Adnan would be getting a new trial - http://abcnews.go.com/US/adnan-syed-serial-retrial-decision-looms/story?id=38658329
From the comments on the site this was posted i took it that the decision wouldn't come out for at least another 6 months and this was only in May so i doubt it is that.
https://serialpodcast.org/season-one
Just look all the way at the bottom of the episode guide. It is actually three parts.
Thanks :up:. Will check that out tomorrow when i go to listen to the next episode of Season 2.
Took the plunge and listened to the second episode of Magnotta. Boy oh boy, rough doesn't even begin to describe. This man is an absolute monster and thinking about what he did makes me sick, The worst part of the audio for me was listening to the voices of those who watched his video. My stomach was flipping the whole time. Honestly, I don't know what you do about it but it should be some sort of crime, and whoever showed it to those children should be jailed, no exaggeration. We are some sick people, us humans. What does that do to people's minds. It makes me think he created more monsters. I don't know, How do you come back from that. This poor man that was killed, oh my god. Why would someone answer an ad like that. I don't even have words. I am at a loss in case you can't tell. I don't know how many more of these I am going to be able to do but I will check out the two that you highly recommended.
Took the plunge and listened to the second episode of Magnotta. Boy oh boy, rough doesn't even begin to describe. This man is an absolute monster and thinking about what he did makes me sick, The worst part of the audio for me was listening to the voices of those who watched his video. My stomach was flipping the whole time. Honestly, I don't know what you do about it but it should be some sort of crime, and whoever showed it to those children should be jailed, no exaggeration. We are some sick people, us humans. What does that do to people's minds. It makes me think he created more monsters. I don't know, How do you come back from that. This poor man that was killed, oh my god. Why would someone answer an ad like that. I don't even have words. I am at a loss in case you can't tell. I don't know how many more of these I am going to be able to do but I will check out the two that you highly recommended.
Wow. Didn't think you were going to listen to it after the first, as i said i thought it would be too much after the first bothered you.
Couldn't agree more man, the guy was pure evil. It is really terrifying how much this was for fame, pure and simple. It makes me wonder what would have happened if he became a celebrity for normal reasons like he was trying to do and the attention was sustained. I believe he would have always been capable of this but i don't know if he would have ended up doing it. Don't know, maybe i was to taking in by the reasons mentioned in the podcast but the guy clearly craved attention initially by normal means until his gay porn career started crumbling and he wasn't getting hired for any of the things he was auditioning for. Can't believe he contacted the group looking for him for killing the cats anonymously to say it was him, then turned up in London to deny it was him when The Sun had no clue what he was talking about. Nutjob.
Yeah those reactions are messed up. It was really chilling when Mike said that those who watched it may have exposed themselves to PTSD. Could completely see that. The song will probably give me flashbacks and i haven't even seen the video. I fully agree it should be illegal, all of the people who listened to it sounded young but the ridiculously young like 9 or 10 year olds from England, yeah fully agree who ever let them watch that should be jailed. That is child abuse in my mind. Felt terrible for the guy as well, was close to tears listening to his mum.
Anyway the other two parter isn't disturbing. It isn't even really a crime as i said. It is a bit sad in a few parts but it is mostly just crazy.
I wish we had gotten more of his background. I know they said in part 1 there was a history of abuse, but that's about all that was mentioned. I think I would be interested in what shaped his childhood. Chilling stuff.
I wish we had gotten more of his background. I know they said in part 1 there was a history of abuse, but that's about all that was mentioned. I think I would be interested in what shaped his childhood. Chilling stuff.
Me too. My guess is not that much is known about his early years. Canada isn't as open with stuff like trial proceedings as the US where a lot of this stuff probably came up. I imagine they reached out to people who knew him at that age and only a few understandably wanted to talk about it, so we only got a few anecdotes that may or may not be true. If this was in the US that probably would have been a 3 part one with a lot of audio from the Trial like some of the other episodes.
Just about to watch The Lucky Ones. I'll try and get to the next episode of Serial later if i'm not going out.
Adnan got a new trial - http://www.baltimorecitycourt.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/syedvstateofmdpetitionforpostconvictionrelieforder063016.pdf
Thing is unless new evidence is presented from the prosecution i think he will and should be released. Even though i fully believe he did it.
Sexy Celebrity
06-30-16, 09:55 PM
Is this a thread about murderers and gangsters and stuff like that?
Is this a thread about murderers and gangsters and stuff like that?
Yeah. And anything else crime related. Did you see someone jaywalk today? Tell us here and we'll discuss it in depth.
Sexy Celebrity
06-30-16, 10:00 PM
Yeah. And anything else crime related. Did you see someone jaywalk today? Tell us here and we'll discuss it in depth.
......... Okay.
Here's an article on Adnan's retrial that includes pictures of him now - https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/tvandradioblog/2016/jul/01/adnan-syed-retrial-serial
Pretty amazing how influential the Serial Podcast has been in getting this to happen. Of course none of their own investigating or speculation played a part but Sarah was the one who turned Deidre onto the case and as it says:
The testimony of lawyer Deirdre Enright, from the Innocence Project, was compelling: it introduced a formality into what was otherwise a series of interviews in which a group of almost-witnesses nearly-but-didn’t-quite remember things. Enright described the weakness of the case from a legal point of view: Syed’s palm print on a map in a friend’s car that couldn’t be time-stamped; records of a cell-phone tower which the phone company explicitly warned were not reliable. All these circumstantial nuggets might function as a garnish to the meat of a prosecution, but when they were the meat, it was pretty thin pickings.
Unless the state gets new evidence i can't see him not getting released.
Done with episode 4, pretty uneventful one for me. Not sure what the journalist that was imprisoned interview had to do with Bowe. I think there is conversations to be had about Guantanamo, but the casual way she brings it up and how she immediately wants your POV to join hers is infinitely annoying to me. The statement about a prisoner, "he wasn't much of a terrorist but we made him into one", bothered me so damn much. Much of a terrorist, what the hell does that even mean?
I'm going to listen to episode four and five when i go next so i'm the one with the first reaction for once. haha.
Done with episode 4, pretty uneventful one for me. Not sure what the journalist that was imprisoned interview had to do with Bowe. I think there is conversations to be had about Guantanamo, but the casual way she brings it up and how she immediately wants your POV to join hers is infinitely annoying to me. The statement about a prisoner, "he wasn't much of a terrorist but we made him into one", bothered me so damn much. Much of a terrorist, what the hell does that even mean?
This was the most boring episode of Serial i've watched yet.
Who is this guy telling her that they were just about to kill Bowe? Seriously i am not convinced that is Sanjeen or however you spell it. I have no reason to believe it wasn't Bowe telling her this and she just ran with it with a foreign sounding guy representing Sanjeen. Ok i'm joking, i do believe what she is saying but this Season has been a mess so far. If she didn't tell me who everyone is before they spoke i'd have no idea what was going on and who was who. And she hasn't at any time said were she got this info. In Season 1 she would say this was in Jay's Testimony, or Natalie said this later, whatever. Don't know i suppose she is getting information from people whose names she can't mention which is fine and understandable but i think she makes it more messy than it needs to be when she attributes certain words to Sanjeen for instance then she trips up by showing why it couldn't have came from him.
Sorry mate don't want to moan but thought i may as well during an episode that wasn't that interesting anyway . I really don't like her theories or her talking to people that much so far. Pretty surprised that it is Sarah and not Bowe that is turning me off of this Season so much.
I think there is conversations to be had about Guantanamo, but the casual way she brings it up and how she immediately wants your POV to join hers is infinitely annoying to me.
Absolutely.
I really don't have much else to say about this one. I'll watch and post about episode 5 early tomorrow hopefully so i have the first reaction for once.
Hey have you/ do you still want to listen to this Sean? That last one really turned me off but i think i needed a rest as well since i had listened to so many of them over a short period of time. I was enjoying our talks so i hope we can still do this?
Yeah, I listened. I was gonna let you go first. I will be ready to pick up when you are. I was thinking the other day about what we could do after Serial. Have you seen The Jinx?
BTW, that meant I'm fine with a break. :)
Yeah, I listened. I was gonna let you go first. I will be ready to pick up when you are. I was thinking the other day about what we could do after Serial. Have you seen The Jinx?
BTW, that meant I'm fine with a break. :)
Yeah, i've seen The Jinx, Have you seen The Staircase? I've really wanted to rewatch it and it is ridiculously long so we could take our time with that if you want? Honestly if it counted in the Doc's Countdown it would have been my #2. Also Yoda loves (not sure that is the right word for it) it so i'll try to convince him to join us?
Yeah, i've seen The Jinx, Have you seen The Staircase? I've really wanted to rewatch it and it is ridiculously long so we could take our time with that if you want? Honestly if it counted in the Doc's Countdown it would have been my #2. Also Yoda loves (not sure that is the right word for it) it so i'll try to convince him to join us?
Yeah, I have that in the Netflix que so I will move it on up. Just let me know when you're ready. Looking forward to it.
Tomorrow or Saturday?
You meant it, you're ready to roll. Let me see if I can get it another way besides waiting for Netflix. I will let you know. Was that HBO?
Okay, I can get a week.of Doc Club free. I will watch it there. If I get hooked on another streaming service. Ugh :D
I'll see if I can dredge up some memories about The Staircase when you guys get into it (prod me somehow if I forget to check back in in time!). Suffice to say, I would've recommended watching that first and then The Jinx, because The Staircase is a more traditional documentary. It's dryer, and slower, and more serious. The Jinx is much more dramatic and heavily produced, and I love it, but there's a chance something like this will feel a little boring in comparison. That said, if you mostly just want to scratch that true crime itch, it'll more than do the trick.
I was going to start talking about the case, but I suppose that has to wait. ;)
I haven't watched The Jinx yet so I will watch them in that order. I'm not spoiler adverse so if you guys want to start talking it won't bother me.
I watched the first two parts of The Staircase. You start yet Camo?
I watched the first two parts of The Staircase. You start yet Camo?
No mate, will do tomorrow sorry. I just noticed Yoda's post as well probably because he promised me a phantom +rep :p.
Please post what you think so far though mate. I've already seen it, so hopefully i'll be able to keep up. Will watch the first two and make a post tommorrow.
I was thinking about this and i don't know if Yoda agrees but i think both of us will have unfair reactions to certain episodes simply because we know more than you, this is our second run at it.
Until you start developing your own feelings on this (which won't be long would be surprised if it took more than three or four episodes) i think me and Yoda should just discuss the facts with you. Obviously that is always the goal but there is a lot of things to speculate about in this case that would make our discussions more interesting IMO.
Well Camo I was hoping you would go first this time but I will lead off. The good is that I think The Staircase is going to be really addicting. I pretty much had to stop myself from watching because I didn't want to get too far ahead of you. Anything all access like this it is hard not to be impressed by it. We are getting loads of information. Things you would never see in other crime docs, like the witness coach, are so intriguing to watch for me. The access really makes this doc something very special.
The bad is that I don't know I am going to have a lot to say from episode to episode. I am hoping some of your guys thoughts may change that. That is because they are basically rolling everything out as a reveal, so I want to hear everything before I come down on one side or the other. I will say I disagree with the defense's contention that the affairs and lying about his war injuries don't matter doesn't fly with me. I think the more it comes to light how dishonest he is, the harder it is to trust anything he says. Of course, that doesn't mean he is guilty, but it makes it hard for me to trust anything he says. The way his friend in Germany died is really troubling to me, but we will see if that bears any fruit.
Can't wait to hear what you guys have to say.
Good stuff Sean. I'll definitely watch and post about the first two eps tomorrow night. I'm going to watch some of I Claudius first before voting in the TV Tournament.
I saw this years ago so I have no idea what's in any particular episode, so I'm kind of worried about saying anything until sean is done. :laugh:
Just about to watch episode 1, i'll post about it after i'm done. Will need to leave episode two till later as i'm watching my niece in a few hours.
I saw this years ago so I have no idea what's in any particular episode, so I'm kind of worried about saying anything until sean is done.
Absolutely. I'm rewatching it and it is going to be really tough coming up with things to talk about. Since its not as if i can speculate or anything :laugh:
OK, this is going to be difficult. I'm going to try my utmost to just look and post about this as if it is my first time watching it. To do this i'll need to post certain things that i now know or at least think are wrong because those were the first impressions i had. So don't take anything i'm saying as ruining anything Sean because i may be mentioning things that i know are reasonably explained later or whatever.
So.. episode 1. The very first time i heard the 911 call and this time too it just didn't sound right. It sounds like he is trying to force an authentic sounding panicked and confused state. "How many stair sir?" "Uh.. ah.. 15 or 20 i don't know" His paranoia and hyper awareness of a policeman being in his presence doesn't sound right either. I've never been in a similar situation so what i think i would be like obviously doesn't hold that much weight but it is the only thing i could go by. And if this just happened and i had nothing to do with it i don't think i'd take notice of that in my distraught state. His lawyer and his little speeches are ridiculous. I understand what he is doing and why he needs to but it is still laughable. In the death of a family member the first thing officers will do is rule out foul play, if they can't then they'll rule out family members starting with the spouse if the victim has one, and if there is reason to believe said spouse was involved then they will charge. Him trying to make out that it was a witch hunt for Michael is ridiculous, when every case with a dead wife they have to rule out the husband and other family members first.
One of the most interesting things about this show is the immense access to things like the Defense and Prosecution Teams discussing strategies. Just wanted to note that because it is pretty incredible and unprecedented in an ongoing case i imagine.
Anyway i have some other thoughts that i'll leave to later episodes. I'll watch episode two later on as i'm watching my niece soon.
Anything all access like this it is hard not to be impressed by it. We are getting loads of information. Things you would never see in other crime docs, like the witness coach, are so intriguing to watch for me. The access really makes this doc something very special.
Absolutely. I'm still surprised that something this extensive was allowed to be made on an ongoing trial.
I'm through episode 4, so basically through opening statements at the trial. I definitely agree with you about the 911 call. His grand standing for the camera does become tiresome. However, there are things I agree with. Like when they exhumed the body of the other women and wrote on the autopsy that she died by homicidal means. That is a crazy thing to allow a jury who is supposed to be impartial hear. I continue to love the behind the scenes stuff that we would just normally never get to see. The whole thing with the main defense lawyer practicing his opening the night before the trial starts. He keeps getting interrupted and the pics aren't being shown properly. Then a cell keeps vibrating. I think in a narrative film it all might seem a little much, but it's real and it's great to watch.
My gut tells me we are headed toward him being guilty but I go back and forth depending on what I heard last, which I guess is the point. For instance in opening the prosecution shows the photo of her skull and points out how many lacerations there are. That couldn't possibly happen from a fall, reasonable. Then the defense gets up and points out how there is no skull fracture or brain hemorrhage, couldn't possibly happen from that many blows to the head, also reasonable.
Really can't wait to see where this goes.
Yeah, that "witch hunt" thing is tough for the defense. It doesn't ring true, and I think they know it. And that's a big part of their problem: what did happen? I know you're supposed to merely prove reasonable doubt, but a lot of these documentaries (and other things like them that touch on murder cases) suggest that, fair or not, your best bet is to give the jury and alternative theory. It's much tougher to get people to agree with "well, he very well maybe have, but I'm not positive enough" than it is "are you really sure it wasn't this instead?" So I think this is one of those instances where the need to have an alternative theory is forcing them into some tough decisions, and some rhetoric that's a pretty hard sell.
Finished The Staircase. I really am just at a loss as to how I feel. I don't trust Michael Peterson but I don't think I would have been able to convict him. I am dying to know how you guys feel, so please fill me in. I immediately started watching Staircase 2. Ten minutes in and already not as compelling but it is only two episodes.
Starting OJ: Made In America tonight, in case anyone is interested in watching along with that one.
Finished The Staircase. I really am just at a loss as to how I feel. I don't trust Michael Peterson but I don't think I would have been able to convict him. I am dying to know how you guys feel, so please fill me in.
I think I would've voted Guilty (at least, based on my memory of watching it, which is admittedly fuzzy). But what you just described is how I feel with almost all of these true crime stories: I think the person is usually guilty, but that there usually is a reasonable doubt.
Frankly, I think there's a pretty compelling argument that lots of cases fall well short of the "reasonable doubt" standard, and that it's possible applying it for real would lead to tons of guilty people going free. It's also possible it's important to maintain that standard as a goal even if it works better in the long run to not take it literally. I'm not sure. But one thing I'm becoming more sure of is that it's incredibly hard to really prove something like this, and that as a society I'm not sure we really apply the "reasonable doubt" standard, and I think some people would have genuine questions about the viability of the standard if they saw how many acquittals it would lead to if we did.
I did read a crazy-at-first-but-less-crazy-as-you-consider-it theory (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/special-reports/article10365449.html), which I'll lead behind that link for spoiler purposes, that does seem to explain a few things, even if it sounds absurd at first. I think, if Peterson didn't do it, then something really weird and improbable happened, and it's really hard to know how strongly to consider a thing that is perfectly plausible but still very unlikely. That theory, however unlikely, though, might at least get around the "alternate theory" problem I mentioned earlier, given that the idea that she just fell didn't really seem supported by the evidence.
I think I would've voted Guilty (at least, based on my memory of watching it, which is admittedly fuzzy). But what you just described is how I feel with almost all of these true crime stories: I think the person is usually guilty, but that there usually is a reasonable doubt.
Frankly, I think there's a pretty compelling argument that lots of cases fall well short of the "reasonable doubt" standard, and that it's possible applying it for real would lead to tons of guilty people going free. It's also possible it's important to maintain that standard as a goal even if it works better in the long run to not take it literally. I'm not sure. But one thing I'm becoming more sure of is that it's incredibly hard to really prove something like this, and that as a society I'm not sure we really apply the "reasonable doubt" standard, and I think some people would have genuine questions about the viability of the standard if they saw how many acquittals it would lead to if we did.
I did read a crazy-at-first-but-less-crazy-as-you-consider-it theory (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/special-reports/article10365449.html), which I'll lead behind that link for spoiler purposes, that does seem to explain a few things, even if it sounds absurd at first. I think, if Peterson didn't do it, then something really weird and improbable happened, and it's really hard to know how strongly to consider a thing that is perfectly plausible but still very unlikely. That theory, however unlikely, though, might at least get around the "alternate theory" problem I mentioned earlier, given that the idea that she just fell didn't really seem supported by the evidence.
Geeze, I think if I had read that article without knowing I would have thought it was from The Onion. I completely get what you are saying about the reasonable doubt. Things would be much different on a jury than watching a doc obviously. So I am sure I would have said guilty. The wounds seem unreasonable for a fall, but I think the defense wins just about every other argument. Like I have said about ten times already, I just found it so compelling to get such an inside look. Man, my heart goes out to the kids. I can't imagine that situation and how they deal with that mentally.
Do you remember them finding the blow poke late? That was so bizarre at the eleventh hour. I don't know if it was a conspiracy, but my BS radar was certainly going off.
Finished part 2 of The Staircase last night. Not nearly as compelling but I was glad to see where everything is at. Petersen seemed like a beaten man trying to put on a good face for his family. The Deever stuff was interesting and the DA just never seems to have an answer for what the defense throws at them. I guess people could point to that as meaning the doc makers have a slant they want you to get on board with. I would really love to hear more from the other side on the case. I am glad I wasn't on this jury on one hand, on the other maybe I would have a clearer picture if I was. Interesting stuff, these things always give me a bit of pause about our judicial system. Feels like a dog and pony show way too often.
Really glad you liked The Staircase Sean. I think it is my favourite documentary show. I'll make a post with my thoughts later as i'm just about to watch My Man Godfrey. Hopefully we can find something that neither of us have seen and both of us are interested in at some point, as it was hard trying to come up with things to say after the first episode for me since i had watched it. Sadly that OJ doc is not something for me though as i'm sick of that case.
Yoda, glad you brought up the owl theory haha. I only heard about it a few weeks ago on a podcast. I didn't read your article but the guy who came up with it could be accused of bias since he is a friend of the petersons and he freely admits he isn't an owl expert but it is surprisingly not as out there as you'd think. And yeah i basically feel the same as you guys i think he did it but i'm not sure if i'd be able to convict if on the jury with what was shown anyway, pretty much the same as Adnan in Serial.
Anybody hear about this? A suspected Serial Killer in Phoenix who has shot nine people since March killing seven. So sad and just completely nuts. RIP to the victims, hope he is caught soon.
http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/04/us/phoenix-serial-shootings/index.html
Phoenix police say that a serial shooter has struck for the ninth time.
The Phoenix Police Department have connected a spate of mysterious shootings that have killed seven people and wounded two, to a suspect they call the "Serial Street Shooter."
Authorities revealed on Wednesday the latest case they believe is connected to the suspect.
On the evening of July 11, a suspect shot at a vehicle in a residential area of Phoenix. Two people, a 21-year-old man and a 4-year-old boy, who had been sitting inside the car were not injured.
Police found physical evidence and a lot of similarities between the latest shooting and the previous eight, said Phoenix Police spokesman Sgt. Jonathan Howard. Like the previous shootings, there was "no apparent motive, no pre-incident contact."
"There are a lot of things that struck investigators as resembling the serial shooter's scheme," Howard said.
Police revealed this information a month after the shooting, because "it took awhile for investigators to connect the evidence and witness information to draw the conclusion that this incident was linked to the serial shooter," he said.
Authorities also increased the reward for information leading to the arrest of the suspect to $50,000 after the FBI added an additional $20,000.
Last month, authorities released a composite sketch of the suspect, who was described as a lanky Hispanic male under 5 feet, 10 inches tall. Witnesses have described him as a light-skinned Latino or white man in his 20s.
Based on witness statements, investigators say that "the suspect has access to multiple vehicles, but the two best described are a white Cadillac or Lincoln type vehicle and a black late 90's or early 2000's 5 Series BMW."
The shootings have been concentrated in the low-income neighborhood of Maryvale, with many of the victims shot while standing outside their homes, police said.
Police say the suspect shoots his victims at night with a semi-automatic handgun.
The shootings began March 17, when a 16-year-old boy was shot and wounded while walking on the street at 11:30 p.m., according to police.
A 21-year-old man was shot and wounded the next night.
Two people were killed in April. Five people were killed in June.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/03/OJ_Made_in_America.png/220px-OJ_Made_in_America.png
3.5
I really didn't think I needed this refresher course in the OJ fiasco. I kind of did though. I found this pretty compelling. I don't think I had my head wrapped around the racial implications of this trial at that point in my life. I was an adult, and remembered Rodney King very well. I don't think I was making all the connections that seem very obvious in this documentary. After the trial was over close to 80% blacks thought OJ was not guilty, while 75% of whites thought he was. That is a stunning statistic and shows that this trial was quite literally a cultural phenomenon, and, unfortunately, had very little to do with Nicole and Goldman. It is quite sad to watch.
I still think this doc drags in parts and could have repeats itself. It could have been an incredible 3 1/2 hour piece of film. As it is I liked watching it and am glad I did.
Do you think he did it Sean? I think he most likely did but the theory that it was his son is interesting. When i first heard that i expected it to be some wacko conspiracy theory but there are a few things that make you think. If you hadn't heard about it i'd suggest reading this, a warning though there are some graphic photos here:
http://theunredacted.com/oj-simpson-a-killer-in-the-family/
After the trial was over close to 80% blacks thought OJ was not guilty, while 75% of whites thought he was.
That's a fascinating statistic. I always that it was general consensus he did it.
Yeah Swan, that statistic blew my mind. Some of the racial stuff they brought up had me feeling they were stretching a bit. That was until they pulled out that statistic and some of the stuff you hear the jury say. It is pretty astounding.
I definitely think he did it. I was probably at 98% anyway, but something his friend says that he said in this doc seals the deal.
I'm at about 95%, there is still that little bit of me that believes it could've been his son as the theory is pretty credible IMO with stuff to back it up. Nothing concrete obviously but i don't believe it is too out there.
What did his friend say? I'm honestly not going to watch that doc, i'm sure it is good but i've seen and read enough about the case for this lifetime.
Think i'm going to watch a true crime doc and post about it here soon. No idea what though right now.
I'm at about 95%, there is still that little bit of me that believes it could've been his son as the theory is pretty credible IMO with stuff to back it up. Nothing concrete obviously but i don't believe it is too out there.
What did his friend say? I'm honestly not going to watch that doc, i'm sure it is good but i've seen and read enough about the case for this lifetime.
Think i'm going to watch a true crime doc and post about it here soon. No idea what though right now.
His friend told him he thought he did it and asked him what happened that night. OJ told him a binch of stuff he felt about Nicole, nothing new, just basically wishing he could control her. Then told his friend if Nicole hadn't answered the door with a knife that night than she would still be alive.
Let me know what you are going to watch Camo. I will try and join.
Let me know what you are going to watch Camo. I will try and join.
Yeah, that does sound pretty damning. At the same time i find it hard to accept anecdotes especially in high profile murder cases, seems everybody comes out of the woodwork with a story when something like this happens.
Will do. I'll probably look for something tomorrow and i'll either post it here or leave you a profile comment. If you have any you want to watch we can do that though because i have nothing in mind right now.
Yeah, it is one of my favourite Documentaries i voted for it on the countdown. It didn't make it though :(
Yeah, it is one of my favourite Documentaries i voted for it on the countdown. It didn't make it though :(
How about Shenandoah
Nah, never even heard it. I'd be up for that then if you want?
Nah, never even heard it. I'd be up for that then if you want?
I'm in. I'll wait till early in the week since you want to wait a couple of days. Looking forward to it. Let me know if you come across anything else. You have watched so many more docs than me. I feel dumb asking you, because you have seen the big stuff. I'll keep looking too though.
I'm in. I'll wait till early in the week since you want to wait a couple of days. Looking forward to it. Let me know if you come across anything else. You have watched so many more docs than me. I feel dumb asking you, because you have seen the big stuff. I'll keep looking too though.
I'm fine doing it whenever, just not tonight as i'm just about to watch Hedwig before going to sleep.Yeah, it is pretty surprising how little watched docs seems to be here, but at the same time i suppose a reason a lot of people watch movies is to get away from reality for a while. The only reason i've seen so much is because i went through a phase of watching nothing but documentaries.
Let me know if you come across anything else.
Will do. I've been planning on watching The Act of Killing and The Look of Silence for ages, will have to do that soon the latter first most likely since it's on Netflix here. I'll post about them in this thread since i know you like them, they fit True Crime right? I know they do that was more of a rhetorical question because it's so weird trying to wrap your head around state ordered murders. I've been reading a lot about Joseph Stalin's time as Soviet Leader, i'd love a good Documentary on that but there doesn't seem to be much out there.
I'm fine doing it whenever, just not tonight as i'm just about to watch Hedwig before going to sleep.Yeah, it is pretty surprising how little watched docs seems to be here, but at the same time i suppose a reason a lot of people watch movies is to get away from reality for a while. The only reason i've seen so much is because i went through a phase of watching nothing but documentaries.
Will do. I've been planning on watching The Act of Killing and The Look of Silence for ages, will have to do that soon the latter first most likely since it's on Netflix here. I'll post about them in this thread since i know you like them, they fit True Crime right? I know they do that was more of a rhetorical question because it's so weird trying to wrap your head around state ordered murders. I've been reading a lot about Joseph Stalin's time as Soviet Leader, i'd love a good Documentary on that but there doesn't seem to be much out there.
Look Of Silence is freaking incredible. I want to watch The Act Of Killing again so I might join you. They definitely fit. Kind of funny you bring up Stalin, I was just reading about a Idi Amin doc on Hulu, but thought that probably doesn't fit. looks very interesting.
Look Of Silence is freaking incredible. I want to watch The Act Of Killing again so I might join you. They definitely fit. Kind of funny you bring up Stalin, I was just reading about a Idi Amin doc on Hulu, but thought that probably doesn't fit. looks very interesting.
I'll go for Look of Silence after Shenandoah then,
Is it this? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Idi_Amin_Dada:_A_Self_Portrait
Idi Amin sounded nuts, scary guy man. I remember a story that was on QI. Apparently he couldn't find good shoes his size in Uganda so he went to London to buy them and while there he just turned up at Buckingham Palace to see the Queen without having informed anyone :laugh:.
On the subject of dictators someone posted this on another site on valentines day :laugh:
http://i66.tinypic.com/c0xuf.jpg
I'll go for Look of Silence after Shenandoah then,
Is it this? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Idi_Amin_Dada:_A_Self_Portrait
Idi Amin sounded nuts, scary guy man. I remember a story that was on QI. Apparently he couldn't find good shoes his size in Uganda so he went to London to buy them and while there he just turned up at Buckingham Palace to see the Queen without having informed anyone :laugh:.
Yeah, that's the one. Everything I know about Amin is from King Of Scotland. :D I'm pathetic.
I'm with you haha. That story that may not even be true was the one other thing i had :D
Thinking about using this as an avatar :D
http://i68.tinypic.com/t7nbpf.jpg
Hey Sean i was looking through some stuff today and i came across a HBO Documentary that looks interesting; The Trials of Darryl Hunt. It has gotten good reviews and is on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoBzSV4JdKc
Just wondering if you'd want to do that at some point, if you haven't already seen it? It doesn't have to be anytime soon just something for the future.
I watched the Hunt doc Camo. I'm going to let you take the lead this time. No rush, I think you will find it interesting.
seanc have you heard about this? - https://stownpodcast.org/
It's a Serial/This American Life spinoff and sounds great. Not tried it yet but it sounds much more interesting than Serial Season 2 at least.
seanc have you heard about this? - https://stownpodcast.org/
It's a Serial/This American Life spinoff and sounds great. Not tried it yet but it sounds much more interesting than Serial Season 2 at least.
I will check it out this week. Sounds interesting. :up:
seanc have you heard about this? - https://stownpodcast.org/
It's a Serial/This American Life spinoff and sounds great. Not tried it yet but it sounds much more interesting than Serial Season 2 at least.
It's very interesting. You start yet?
It's very interesting. You start yet?
Nah, not had the chance the past few days. Going to try tonight.
seanc have you heard about this? - https://stownpodcast.org/
It's a Serial/This American Life spinoff and sounds great. Not tried it yet but it sounds much more interesting than Serial Season 2 at least.
I finished when you're ready to chat. Really great but not at all what I expected. I will be interested to see what you knew going in. Stay as pure as possible.
I finished when you're ready to chat. Really great but not at all what I expected. I will be interested to see what you knew going in. Stay as pure as possible.
Damn you finished already? I listened to the first half of the first episode then got interrupted and haven't been able to return. Was enjoying it, will probably be able to get a good start on it this weekend.
Don't really know what to think from that half of an episode obviously yet. It's really weird what the guy is saying anyway. Something i thought was pretty funny was that he was trying his hardest to make sure we didn't think he was a 'hick' for lack of a better world. Few things i remember him saying was the *paraphrasing* "people around here are morons, they don't even believe in global warming", "he's a real Rush Limbaugh type, loves Glenn Beck" :laugh:. From what i heard he does sound pretty authentic tho, with the host saying he wanted to talk for hours about all sorts of subjects you wouldn't expect him to be into, how the only one he can talk to is the town lawyer, etc. It did make me wonder if he was looking for attention with this at least a little though, since he feels so trapped in this town and no one has anything in common with him coupled with the fact that the host couldn't find anything about the alleged crime, or even the death. As i said though that's only from half an episode, i imagine listening to the rest of it alot of this will change. I had to turn it off at the part where the host first went to meet him at his garden. Should be able to get through at least half of it over the weekend.
Does the host not just remind you of Sarah? He was pretty much the exact same for me, i was wondering if it was due to them using the same sort of music or maybe he actually did try to emulate her to make it familiar to the viewers.
Jesus, i've written this much about half an episode, don't think you want me listening to the rest haha.
Damn you finished already? I listened to the first half of the first episode then got interrupted and haven't been able to return. Was enjoying it, will probably be able to get a good start on it this weekend.
Don't really know what to think from that half of an episode obviously yet. It's really weird what the guy is saying anyway. Something i thought was pretty funny was that he was trying his hardest to make sure we didn't think he was a 'hick' for lack of a better world. Few things i remember him saying was the *paraphrasing* "people around here are morons, they don't even believe in global warming", "he's a real Rush Limbaugh type, loves Glenn Beck" :laugh:. From what i heard he does sound pretty authentic tho, with the host saying he wanted to talk for hours about all sorts of subjects you wouldn't expect him to be into, how the only one he can talk to is the town lawyer, etc. It did make me wonder if he was looking for attention with this at least a little though, since he feels so trapped in this town and no one has anything in common with him coupled with the fact that the host couldn't find anything about the alleged crime, or even the death. As i said though that's only from half an episode, i imagine listening to the rest of it alot of this will change. I had to turn it off at the part where the host first went to meet him at his garden. Should be able to get through at least half of it over the weekend.
Does the host not just remind you of Sarah? He was pretty much the exact same for me, i was wondering if it was due to them using the same sort of music or maybe he actually did try to emulate her to make it familiar to the viewers.
Jesus, i've written this much about half an episode, don't think you want me listening to the rest haha.
I can't wait for you to listen, but can't comment for obvious reasons. Also obvious you know nothing, so yeah, that's awesome. Very similar to Sarah. Excellent way to tell stories. I hope they can continue to mine these gems. I love the format.
I can't wait for you to listen, but can't comment for obvious reasons. Also obvious you know nothing, so yeah, that's awesome. Very similar to Sarah. Excellent way to tell stories. I hope they can continue to mine these gems. I love the format.
Definitely, looking forward to it. Do you listen to This American Life? If so is it any good?
Was never really sure of what it was just always remember Sarah mentioning it at the start of every episode. From what i read about it, it seems similar to this except it is an episode per subject and they focus on lots of different things. Read it's pretty uneven, some great and some boring episodes.
Definitely, looking forward to it. Do you listen to This American Life? If so is it any good?
Was never really sure of what it was just always remember Sarah mentioning it at the start of every episode. From what i read about it, it seems similar to this except it is an episode per subject and they focus on lots of different things. Read it's pretty uneven, some great and some boring episodes.
I haven't ever listened. I should give it a try.
Stirchley
05-19-17, 08:00 PM
30642
Did anyone ever see this documentary series? Really really good. At the end, I had no clue who to believe.
seanc
Sorry it's been so long but yeah i've finally listened to it if you want to talk about it. I don't listen to podcasts much: True Crime and History sometimes are the only subjects i've really went out of my way to listen to, regardless S-Town is my favourite Podcast. A movie hasn't made me properly cry in quite a while: i've teared up plenty and sobbed sometimes but i've not properly cried at a movie in at least a decade, the Brokeback Mountain - guy who could have been his partner and possibly averted this situation - episode of S-Town broke my heart and i was crying through most of it.
When the gold came up, i cynically said to myself the gold won't be found and i'll just be left unsatisfied in the end. Well the gold wasn't found but i'm struggling to think of a piece of media other than a few albums that have left me more satisfied than this. If it was revealed tomorrow that this was 100% fictional, John wasn't real and neither was anything else i don't think i'd care because this really did touch me.
To bring up something outside of praise that won't generate a conversation: what do you think of the mercury poisoning? I think if everything that John claimed (well people claimed John claimed) about doing it a dozen times a year was accurate then it was probably a major factor along with his clear depression in his suicide.
The theory put forward about mercury poisoning was very compelling. I felt for John quite a bit. Obviously he was a very tortured soul. I really just love the way the story was told. Maybe these podcasts can be in bad taste a bit, but I really liked this one.
30642
Did anyone ever see this documentary series? Really really good. At the end, I had no clue who to believe.
Yeah, I saw it as well. A year removed but I remember thinking he was guilty. The bones in the fire being the most damning evidence to me. If memory serves I didn't think they did a good job of explaining that away. I felt most sorry for the nephew.
Stirchley
05-19-17, 09:28 PM
I felt most sorry for the nephew.
Why?
I know, i was kind of trying to force a conversation there but yeah i agree. S-Town was just really beautiful and should be left as is. I saw an article after that calling the guy who bought the land (the dad of the guy who was accused of the murder that started all of this if you remember) a fascist and horrible person and whatever. Thought that was pretty awful, if it turns out he actually did something wrong then i'm with everyone but one of the main reasons John was against that family and the town in general was his own depression obviously, i think people taking his gold/fortune literally and thinking this dude has swooped in to take over this are missing the point. That guy may very well be awful: i mean 3 K's? It's not relevant either way though and i think the weakest part of the podcast was bringing up him right at the end to be the villain when the podcast really didn't need one.
Yeah, I think I mostly agree. The great thing about the cast is it is such a honest look at humanity. Everyone does things that people may not do themselves but they are all doing it out of a sense of what they think is right. They are selfish sometimes, and other times selfless. They tell half truths. I can honestly say there were times I was on everyone's side's at certain points.
Why?
He seemed to be the most manipulated, and certainly didn't seem to have the ability to know what was going on. Again, over a year removed but that's what stood out.
Stirchley
05-22-17, 03:40 PM
30730
So looking forward to this new HBO movie.
30730
So looking forward to this new HBO movie.
I hadn't heard of that. Sounds interesting.
Stirchley
05-22-17, 04:26 PM
I hadn't heard of that. Sounds interesting.
Dani, you guys in Oz have actually heard of Madoff?
Dani, you guys in Oz have actually heard of Madoff?
yes. We get world news down in this neck of the woods. I do like my documentaries.
Stirchley
05-22-17, 04:32 PM
yes. We get world news down in this neck of the woods. I do like my documentaries.
Sorry, didn't mean to patronize. I asked because here in America we are so full of our news, how fascinating it is, blah, blah, blah, I just wondered what possible interest Oz would have in the Madoffs. Unless one had invested with him.
Sorry, didn't mean to patronize. I asked because here in America we are so full of our news, how fascinating it is, blah, blah, blah, I just wondered what possible interest Oz would have in the Madoffs. Unless one had invested with him.
Oh I didnt take it that way so it's fine. I often get asked by people in US if we get world news. I also follow world news media outlets.
Stirchley
05-22-17, 04:36 PM
Oh I didnt take it that way so it's fine. I often get asked by people in US if we get world news. I also follow world news media outlets.
Duh. I have been asked more than once if I grew up in an English castle.
seanc MonnoM
Monno brought up a doc called A Gray State, it's on Netflix and seems like the right sort of thing for this thread. What do you think, Sean?
I always say i'm going to watch stuff for this thread then i don't so i'd get your skepticism but even if i don't follow through (i will) Monno has already seen it and he's read about the case so i imagine he's ready to discuss it,
Just went through this thread. Apparently i deleted my posts but yeah i stick by my S-Town is one of the greatest pieces of media in the 21st Century. I've listened to it twice since then and it always makes me cry. Don't really care how corny it is to say the whole Brokeback Mountain part is straight up beautiful. If anything will inspire you to get out there and find love it's the missed opportunity part of S-Town.
seanc MonnoM
Monno brought up a doc called A Gray State, it's on Netflix and seems like the right sort of thing for this thread. What do you think, Sean?
I always say i'm going to watch stuff for this thread then i don't so i'd get your skepticism but even if i don't follow through (i will) Monno has already seen it and he's read about the case so i imagine he's ready to discuss it,
I will check it out. I have noticed it a couple times searching around so I was already a bit curious. Should be able to check it out this weekend.
ScarletLion
01-06-18, 08:50 AM
S-Town is great.
I hven't read this thread through but have these been mentioned:
Long Shot
The Confession Tapes
Both extremely good / frustrating in equal measure.
seanc or anyone. Not sure if you are interested in reading true crime stuff, if you are you should read this - https://magazine.atavist.com/the-mastermind
It's about a Zimbabwe born, South African boy genius programmer who ended up an international cartel boss: Paul Le Roux. It's nuts but so good. Unbelievable how powerful and dangerous this computer nerd ended up, had never heard of him. It's split into seven very long parts but is well worth it, i'm on part 5.
If there was ever a time to bump this it's the ONS getting caught. The whole thing is nuts to me, like i expected the Zodiac (this probably wasn't one person but whatever) and LISK to get caught before him but here we are. Here's a pretty good Podcast on him on Youtube before he was caught:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVN47lHYvtA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjSsAU1UMX4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by5hiIhukS4
Definitely feel like a weirdo texting my mum to tell her the ONS was caught and her being as aware of it all as me.
Bonito
Can you post something amazing about the ONS like you did in my other thread about that completely different subject, just think you know California. Thanks if you can :laugh:
Bonito
Can you post something amazing about the ONS like you did in my other thread about that completely different subject, just think you know California. Thanks if you can :laugh:
Hi Camo, thanks for the compliment but I'm afraid I don't know California very well, (apart from reading) never been there yet. Also, I have to admit that I don't know what the ONS are - sorry, you'll have to explain that one to me.
Hi Camo, thanks for the compliment but I'm afraid I don't know California very well, (apart from reading) never been there yet. Also, I have to admit that I don't know what the ONS are - sorry, you'll have to explain that one to me.
I've not been to California either, i just thought your HIV post seemed really California specific, i know now it was more general knowledge. Just thought you may have been from there from that.
The ONS, is the Original Night Stalker (there was a later Serial Killer that got called the Night Stalker so when he got attention later he got called the Original Night Staler), his crimes started back in the 70's and he wasn't caught (if it's him) until two days ago basically, same deal as the Zodiac except the Zodiac probably wasn't one person and this guy was likely three different known criminals.
If you're interested in learning about it i'd read this: http://www.lamag.com/longform/in-the-footsteps-of-a-killer/
It's a pretty detalled article from five years ago which now seems like the final push towards capturing him.
jiraffejustin
04-29-18, 12:12 AM
I am not much of a true crime guy, not that I don't find it interesting, just that I don't listen to the podcasts, read the books, watch many of the documentaries. Serial killers do fascinate me, but I just have too many other things that draw more of my attention. I am really curious about how the community of true crime fans are feeling about the Golden State Killer getting nabbed. It seems like a big deal to me, and not in the run-of-the-mill big deal type of way. I didn't really know much about him beforehand, but considering how long this has been unsolved, I would guess the most recent "big deal" I could think of would be the capture of BTK. Can somebody more familiar with this community tell me when the most recent example of something of this magnitude has occurred?
Also, I guess since I'm here, I'll throw out a podcast recommendation. It's just for one specific episode of a country music podcast that has to do with the detestable Spade Cooley. Cocaine and Rhinestones is the podcast and the episode is The Murder Ballad of Spade Cooley (https://cocaineandrhinestones.com/spade-cooley-murder-ballad).
I am not much of a true crime guy, not that I don't find it interesting, just that I don't listen to the podcasts, read the books, watch many of the documentaries. Serial killers do fascinate me, but I just have too many other things that draw more of my attention. I am really curious about how the community of true crime fans are feeling about the Golden State Killer getting nabbed. It seems like a big deal to me, and not in the run-of-the-mill big deal type of way. I didn't really know much about him beforehand, but considering how long this has been unsolved, I would guess the most recent "big deal" I could think of would be the capture of BTK. Can somebody more familiar with this community tell me when the most recent example of something of this magnitude has occurred?
Also, I guess since I'm here, I'll throw out a podcast recommendation. It's just for one specific episode of a country music podcast that has to do with the detestable Spade Cooley. Cocaine and Rhinestones is the podcast and the episode is The Murder Ballad of Spade Cooley (https://cocaineandrhinestones.com/spade-cooley-murder-ballad).
I'm not part of the "True Crime Community" but there's a few cases i always keep tabs on and i check websleuths from time to time especially if something happens in Glasgow. I have been weirdly obsessed with the ONS case over the last two years or so to the point that i texted my mum saying he was caught since i had talked to her about it so much.
He is very similar to BTK, the big difference is as soon as BTK was caught he confessed and said exactly what he did, apparently this dude is refusing food and water seems like he's planning on killing himself if he gets the chance which is the opposite of the BTK who seemed excited to tell his crimes, there's a video of BTK saying "Oh yeah it's me!" or something like that. This dude seemed to really want to die without anyone knowing which is much darker to me, but then the phonecalls - we don't actually know if they were him but the police seemed pretty sure it was him and they believed he stopped because he realized technology was catching up with him; there's a call into a suicide hotline that the police thinks was him where he said he did it all then he continually asks if he's being tracked before he hangs up. If it was actually him it seems to me like he wasn't dumb but he was getting old and he didn't really understand how modern phones work, this was 2001 and the calls as far as has been released stopped after that paranoid call.
Who knows. Thanks for posting JJ.
Can somebody more familiar with this community tell me when the most recent example of something of this magnitude has occurred?
Sorry, i went off because i'm really interested in this case. It's got to be the Green River Killer, right? He's the most prolific American Serial Killer and he basically stopped for 20 years before getting caught in the early 2000s.
, his crimes started back in the 70's and he wasn't caught (if it's him) until two days ago basically
The first thing I thought when I read that, was this case:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/26/golden-state-killer-dna-genealogy-websites
Is that the same one? Interesting for me in this case was the connection to genealogy groups and DNA tests - now very popular and posing some debates on how the DNA info can be used for additional purposes.
The first thing I thought when I read that, was this case:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/26/golden-state-killer-dna-genealogy-websites
Is that the same one? Interesting for me in this case was the connection to genealogy groups and DNA tests - now very popular and posing some debates on how the DNA info can be used for additional purposes.
Same one mate the nickname "The Golden State Killer" is a recent thing, like in the last couple of years JJ mentioned in the shoutbox yesterday. Patton Oswalt's late wife coined it i believe, she wrote a book about him and clearly had some involvement in bringing the case back into the public view in recent years even though the FBI said her book had nothing to do with his arrest.
He's three different criminals. Visalia Ransacker: vandalized houses and stole personal items but largely left valuables ended up killing a couple, East Area Rapist: Committed over 50 rapes and one murder, Original Night Stalker: Committed 10 murders and countless rapes. Was only pretty recently that they figured out it was all the same guy, well the latter two definitely anyway the Visalia Ransacker isn't a certainty yet but they seem to think it's him to and they've charged him with a murder attributed to him.
The FBI are trying to find the Zodiac same way they got the GSK, the results could come in weeks: http://www.sacbee.com/latest-news/article210320689.html
Imagine both the Zodiac and GSK were caught in 2018 :eek: I've been reading some theories that the Zodiac wasn't one person or at least all five murders attributed to him weren't him and they are very convincing. Even if they caught a killer of one of the victims though that'd be incredible.
jiraffejustin
05-03-18, 02:30 AM
Dude, I would lose all of my sh*t if they catch anybody related to those cases.
Dude, I would lose all of my sh*t if they catch anybody related to those cases.
Defo. I kinda lost interest in Zodiac after first seeing Zodiac, there's something great about the hopelessness of the ending. Obviously it'd be incredible if he was caught though. I would guess whoever it was is dead now, if he was 30 at the time of the first crime he'd be 80 now, but then if you asked me a couple of weeks ago if i thought GSK was alive i'd probably say no. Super exciting Serial Killer month anyway :laugh:
Joseph DeAngelo has been charged with four more murders which means he has been charged with all 12 attributed to the Visalia Ransacker, EARS and ONS.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44086525
Also here's an article on their attempt to catch the Zodiac the same way - http://www.sfweekly.com/news/yesterdays-crimes-news/yesterdays-crimes-dna-profiles-and-the-murderers-who-might-be-zodiac/
Reading this:
Arthur Leigh Allen and fellow Zodiac suspects Rick Marshall and Ross Sullivan have been placed in Riverside at the time of the Bates murder. Sullivan worked at the Riverside City College Library and reportedly disappeared for a few days after the murder.
In 1998, Riverside police were able to obtain skin, saliva and other samples from their top suspect in the Bates case, but later tests against the mitochondrial DNA taken from the hair and blood clot found in Bates’ hand ended up clearing him.
I'm really curious why they didn't clear him of all five murders as it seems highly likely to me they weren't all killed by the same person and also that the letter campaign was likely a hoax, possibly by Robert Graysmith to drum up interest for his articles in the Chronicle and his book.
donniedarko
05-11-18, 09:15 PM
Neat, just discovered this thread. Really into TC podcats. SOme of my favs are Generation Why, Casefile, Thinking Sideways, Unresolved, and Serial. Just started listening to True Crime Garage as well. Don't care for Sword and Scale. Any good recs outside of those?
Neat, just discovered this thread. Really into TC podcats. SOme of my favs are Generation Why, Casefile, Thinking Sideways, Unresolved, and Serial. Just started listening to True Crime Garage as well. Don't care for Sword and Scale. Any good recs outside of those?
Nah, those are all the ones i've tried. Can't get into Generation Why for some reason, the others are pretty good though. Oh, listen to S-Town if you haven't. It's my favourite podcast ever and is from the same people as Serial.
https://stownpodcast.org/
Should say though it isn't really True Crime, it starts off as True Crime but ventures into something else. It's so beautiful though IMO, Sean liked it too.
donniedarko
05-11-18, 09:24 PM
Sweet, I’ll check it out. Generation Why I like as they give a good amount of background on the supect(s) a cover a ton of more recent but less fdigged into cases. There latest episode on Josh Powell is pretty great
Sweet, I’ll check it out. Generation Why I like as they give a good amount of background on the supect(s) a cover a ton of more recent but less fdigged into cases. There latest episode on Josh Powell is pretty great
I'll give Generation why another shot when i have the time. What don't you like about Sword and Scale? I've went off it think the new episodes are rarely good but i was a big fan of the early ones, there's an incredible IMO two parter i mentioned earlier in the thread that i've never heard mentioned anywhere else.
donniedarko
05-11-18, 09:44 PM
I'll give Generation why another shot when i have the time. What don't you like about Sword and Scale? I've went off it think the new episodes are rarely good but i was a big fan of the early ones, there's an incredible IMO two parter i mentioned earlier in the thread that i've never heard mentioned anywhere else.
Some of the early ones are fantastic like Luka and Johnny Gosch. Sometimes he puts in clips seemingly for the shock element though that add little to the substance. He’s also very self absorbed. I was very intrigued when I heard he was doing a Natalie bollinger podcast as it’s an unknown local story. It ended up just being him complaining about how he was treated in the Facebook groups.
donniedarko
05-11-18, 09:46 PM
Missing Maura Murray ain’t bad either
Some of the early ones are fantastic like Luka and Johnny Gosch. Sometimes he puts in clips seemingly for the shock element though that add little to the substance. He’s also very self absorbed. I was very intrigued when I heard he was doing a Natalie bollinger podcast as it’s an unknown local story. It ended up just being him complaining about how he was treated in the Facebook groups.
Yeah that's a big reason why i stopped listening. Some of his episodes are just way too much too, there's one he uses text to voice software to read out sick conversations between pedo's :sick: Don't think i lasted a minute into that one.
donniedarko
05-12-18, 02:07 AM
Yeah that's a big reason why i stopped listening. Some of his episodes are just way too much too, there's one he uses text to voice software to read out sick conversations between pedo's :sick: Don't think i lasted a minute into that one.
Know exactly what you’re talking about- unessecary anf completely sickening
cat_sidhe
05-12-18, 03:50 AM
I'm really curious why they didn't clear him of all five murders as it seems highly likely to me they weren't all killed by the same person and also that the letter campaign was likely a hoax, possibly by Robert Graysmith to drum up interest for his articles in the Chronicle and his book.
I also thought it had to be more than one.
I also thought it had to be more than one.
Like i said there's a theory that Paul Avery (i meant him not Graysmith, always get those two mixed up) created the letters to improve his career and i find that very believable. It's known that Avery was given unreleased information from his police contacts as well as access to crime scenes. The Zodiac letters convinced the police because they included unreleased information which Avery knew of, he also got things incorrect like the locations of one of the crimes. It sounds like a crazy conspiracy but IMO it makes more sense than all the murders being by the one guy as they were all completely different and that's not usual Serial Killer behaviour, there's nothing linking them not gender or looks or anything and he even used different weapons. Jesus there's even different fingerprints at the crime scene and people jump through hoops saying Zodiac planted different fingerprints coz he was some kind of genius, the fingerprints could have been of someone other than the killer but still it's very suspect. The police had theories for all of the murders before the Zodiac came about, like a drug related one as the guy killed was apparently an informant against some drug dealer, that makes a lot more sense than some erratic genius serial killer to me.
It's still possible it was all the same guy but i lean towards unrelated kilings that were sensationalized by opportunistic journalists. Still it turned out the Visalia Ransacker, EARS and ONS were all the one guy so anything is possible i guess.
cat_sidhe
05-12-18, 08:21 AM
Like i said there's a theory that Paul Avery (i meant him not Graysmith, always get those two mixed up) created the letters to improve his career and i find that very believable.
It never occurred to me that he'd do that.
https://i.imgur.com/70CQtOR.jpg
I know this has been out for a while but a friend has been on my case to watch it and i finally binged it yesterday. Was actually already aware of this case through finding it on the unusual deaths wiki page, that had to be 10-15 years ago now though so i had forgot a lot as it's so convoluted and plus information has came out since then. Only really posting my thoughts here so i have them somewhere as my friend will want to talk about this and i'll probably forget about some of it. This is a very long convoluted, contradictory, spoiler-filled post that i don't expect anyone to read but whatever.
Enjoyed this a lot but i don't agree with some of the conclusions and find some ridiculous, suspect some of them were just for entertainment purposes and to attempt to come up with a concrete conclusion when there is none, still annoying though. Respect that the dude who made it put in so much research and actually managed to get the interviews he did but i rolled my eyes at how certain he was with his Margie was the mastermind epilogue and just the rabid focus on a "mastermind". There doesn't have to be some grand criminal overlord figure who was playing everyone like puppets, prosecutors often go for those narratives to ensure convictions in cases where witness testimony (by people involved) is the only real evidence they have since they often have to offer incentives to said witnesses to get their testimony. Sometimes it's definitely true but i'm not convinced it is here and if it is i think Rothstein fits more into that than Margie. One thing that really annoyed me was us constantly being told Margie was some master manipulator without showing us any actual examples of it. The closest they came was Margie only agreeing to give up information for legal help but i mean why on earth wouldn't she? Don't see that as some machiavelian move her behaviour on the phone with the documentarian reeked a lot more of desperation, fear and anger than any sort of effective manipulation. Anything else is just conjecture, and i'm honestly struggling to think of any examples even; Barnes said she played her boyfriend (not Rothstein, the guy she killed) like a puppet but he didn't explain how and the only example he actually gave of trouble between the two was him throwing her down stairs.
Now there's so many different stories here and everyone involved is a scumbag so it's difficult to take any of it at face value especially how they all had ulterior motives (except maybe the prostitute at the end she has me stumped, could've just been to be in the spotlight but she would've been on it even if she just said the stuff about Wells being a good guy, i dunno will get to her) for telling them. But there's actual examples of Rothstein being manipulative and or controlling and that's from both Barnes and the sex offender guy who were trying to pin things on Marjorie. Their story paints Rothstein much more as an overbearing presence than Marjorie and that's not benificial to them since he's dead and any deals or preferential treatment they may get hinges on Marjorie's conviction. The sex offender guy made out Rothstein was forcing him to put the collar on Wells, not that i take his word for anything just pointing out stuff like that points much more towards Rothstein. Let's look at what was said about Marjorie's role: she was a lookout according to Barnes alongside him and this actually contradicts the governments case somewhat which i didn't see explained and there's a lot of that, think the doc leaves a lot out which is understandable but still frustrating. The whole thing that reignited the Wells case was the dude who said he spotted Marjorie driving away from the scene in a gold car and Majorie admitted she was on the road, but he mentioned nothing of a man with her and Barnes story was he was in the car with her watching it unfold, he didn't mention being dropped off anywhere. Barnes and the sex offender also both said they didn't know who the mastermind was or who built the bomb or anything. The other thing that was said about her direct involvement was the prostitute said she gave her 1500 dollars as a down payment on her delivering Wells, if true (personally i feel that story is the most likely although it may not be, or may be half-truth) then i think that points to a much more believable role for Marjorie. As pointed out Marjorie didn't need the money (i realize there's the Barnes hitman thing but i don't believe that will go into it if anyone wants, for one he made out at first he was only joking around and that he had nothing to do with the Wells case before changing his story and becoming a principal participant) she was the only one of the four with any money, and one of the two main things she was said to have done was pay the prostitute. The doc constantly hits us over the head with how smart she apparently is, if that's the case and she's essentially the boss why on earth would she introduce herself to someone she has no prior relationship with? She is paying the money for Barnes makes no sense that the big bad criminal mastermind wouldn't give him the money for him to give to this prostitute, allowing herself to be known to an outsider is beyond dumb.
So to me i think the role of a financier is much more likely than the one who came up with it all. Could definitely see them offering her 20K or whatever for the couple of grand they'd need to do everything, not trying to absolve her of anything she's a double murderer outside this anyway who shouldn't have gotten away with it the first time and financier or not she was still involved just saying that makes more sense to me. Of course the prostitute could be lying but then neither Barnes or the other guy said it was her plan either. I also don't understand the shift in perception of Rothstein like at all, so baffling. By the end he's randomly painted as some hopeless romantic and just loved an evil monster coz they found a record in his possessions? Then the laughable he went to his grave protecting Marjorie line, hahaha what? He gave her up for the freezer murder she was incarcerated for the rest of her life because of him, it doesn't even mention the possibility that he may not have gave her up for that because he'd need to mention his own involvement/knowledge. We have three stories, Rothstein is involved in all of them and he's literally giving orders in two of them not to mention he had money problems and a very suspect get out of jail free card. Now, i don't think any of these people were criminal geniuses but if we want to paint any of them as one i feel Rothstein is the easiest to do so. I feel like i don't have a clue what went on with the freezer death, i definitely don't think we got the right story there Marjorie just realized she was going to be convicted so she pled guilty and insanity. The statute of limitations thing does make sense as a reason for her not owning up or giving her side of things, in the end she needed that murder to be a fit of insanity due to abuse and not something calculated, although that's possibly what happened anyway who knows. This happened two weeks (think it was?) before the Wells incident so it is actually possible it was unrelated, these people were clearly severely dysfunctional. I do think Marjorie killed him but i dunno about the circumstances and the relations to the scheme. Either way unless you feel these people weren't involved at all and they just started spinning tales about something none of them knew anything about, then Rothstein giving her up is suspect. Seriously don't get why he'd put himself at risk of her blowing the case weeks after it happened unless it was to get himself immunity for that and to force her into a position of admitting her knowledge of the Wells case which could possibly make her case worse making it an unlikely move on her part. Anyway, that part has me completely stumped and i feel i'd have to read more into that to tie it together.
This was super dumb and confusing so i don't really think any of them were that smart at least criminally, think it's just people wanting to believe criminals are evil geniuses like Hannibal Lecter or whatever. If the stuff said in the first episode about Wells having no chance of getting the collar off is true then what on earth was the point in putting themselves at that sort of risk? The documentarian seems to believe it's because it was a game to them, they wanted to see if they could get away with it, i think incompetance was more likely. Don't think they had much experience with explosives and they timed it wrong. There was just no way for this plot to actually result in them getting the money and if they somehow did it has to result in Wells death as if he's caught he's going to give them up. The thing everyone seems to want to know is Wells involvement if any but honestly there's ofther things i'd prefer answered first including some i mentioned. There's only two scenario's in my mind, either they grabbed him and put the collar on him basically Barnes scenario except if that's the case i don't believe he actually was willing at any point or informed of it think that's Barnes saving himself from a potential death penalty charge. Or Wells was in on it but he was lead to believe it was fake, i lean that way for a few reasons. First he was incredibly calm until it started beeping which is when he got panicky and started shouting things, and also because of the shotgun. No way would you hand a dude you were forcefully putting a bomb collar on a shotgun, it's an incredible risk to hand a dude under extreme duress a loaded gun and the bomb is just as much a threat to you as it is to him seeing as you're in the vicinity to hand him it, pretty easy to turn the tables there. Even if Wells had all the problems people speculated on and wasn't likely to try anything, there's always the chance and i definitely wouldn't take it. Truthfully telling him it was fake when it was actually real is your only real option as you need the assurance of him not giving you up. But then it's also baffling that he didn't give them up when he realized it was going to happen, surely you'd shout out their names when you realized you were going to die...but then maybe he didn't know their names. I dunno everything about it doesn't make sense. Kinda think the most likely thing is no mastermind, a group of scumbags got together and formulated an insane/dumb plan and things both went their way (him not giving them up) and against them (no money making the whole thing pointless) i don't think it was that well thought out and i don't think it had any chance of actually working with these "geniuses" heading it. Oh and for the record i don't think the other pizza guys death had anything to do with this, think it was just a weird coincidence. Doesn't even have to be a coincidence, it mentions he was Wells friend could have taken too much drugs under a saddened state due to his friends death. Or maybe he was paranoid over his role being revealed and took too many drugs due to that paranoia. Personally i don't think he was involved though, they didn't even try to come up with a convuluted role for him because nothing fit. And i definitely don't think Marjie and the rest of those geniuses fed him an overdose, not outside the realms of possibility but still seems pretty absurd to me. I mean that's a pretty skilled execution for a group that shot a dude and kept him in a freezer for weeks while planning this equally dumb plan.
Overall i don't think this is a good documentary. Think it's very entertaining/riveting but that's purely because the story is so insane, it would be very difficult to end up with a boring documentary based on this case. It's way too sensationalized (when it didn't need to be the story is sensational on its own) and agenda-driven in presentation. To me the documentarian wanted to come across like he "solved" it, he's way too positive that he knows everyone's exact motives and the size of their roles, and frankly his explanations for their actions are both underwhelming and unbelievable. Also terrible person or not his last conversation when he tells Marjorie "he knows what she did" after all the time he played her like he was her friend just made him seem like a douche and a major reason criminals often don't give documentarian's interviews in the first place. Got a feeling if i was to read into these cases i'd find out a tonne of stuff was left out, and likely not due to time but because it potentially points away from some of his conclusions.
Also while i'm here, another possible serial killer case solved: Colonial Parkway Murders, according to one of the victims family members:
https://www.wavy.com/news/local-news/williamsburg/possible-developments-in-colonial-parkway-murders-family-says/1315929593
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