Largest mass shooting in US history, atleast 50 dead 53 injured

[donniedarko]

Occurred at an Orlando gay club, looks like the shooter was a jihadist

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/4365325/orlando-shooting-pulse-nightclub-deadliest-history/%3fsource=dam?client=ms-android-verizon#

[Sexy Celebrity]

It's a terrorist attack.

[Sexy Celebrity]

They don't like gay people, so they're coming to kill us.

[cricket]

Been watching this story on the News this morning. It's just awful.

[Camo]

Disgusting :mad:, I've been to Orlando, great city.

RIP :(

[Sexy Celebrity]

Think I just heard Los Angeles has a Gay Pride Parade today.... June is, like, Gay Pride Month everywhere. That's when they have the parades. Let's hope there's not another attack.

[Swan]

:facepalm: at all the evil people in this world.

RIP

[Sexy Celebrity]

They do think there's a connection to ISIS.

[CosmicRunaway]

Last article I saw about this only listed 20 dead. It was completely horrifying then, but seeing that number more than double is just unfathomable.

Requiescecat in pace.

[Chypmunk]

Horrendous :(

[MovieMeditation]

Terrible and tragic...

What drives a person to shoot down that amount of people, gay or not, woman or man, whoever... Just killing 50+ innocent individuals is frightening. And the fact that you can't feel safe anywhere. Here you are having fun at a nightclub and suddenly this happens.

Rest in piece to all who lost their life to people like this.

[Sexy Celebrity]

What drives a person to shoot down that amount of people, gay or not, woman or man, whoever...

ISIS.

[Topsy]

its so sad what we humans are capable off...not sure i like the video accompanying the article.

RIP

[TONGO]

Terrorists are cowards. They never attack where anyone can possibly defend themselves. Im glad they put him down.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Im glad they put him down.

You know what? Why be glad? I'm sure he expected to die, anyway. He got what he wanted.

Would have been better to keep him alive and torture him for the rest of his life.

[MonnoM]

According to the shooter's father it doesn't have anything to do with any connection to terrorist groups. His son saw two men kissing about a month or so ago and the father thinks that's what triggered the incident.

[Sexy Celebrity]

According to the shooter's father it doesn't have anything to do with any connection to terrorist groups. His son saw two men kissing about a month or so ago and the father thinks that's what triggered the incident.

I'm hearing he pledged allegiance to ISIS. ISIS groups are celebrating right now, too.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Pictures of Omar Mir Seddique Mateen, the killer:

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25859&stc=1&d=1465748840
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25860&stc=1&d=1465748843
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25861&stc=1&d=1465748847

[MonnoM]

What's even more shocking is that he had those guns because he worked in security.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Everyone thinks this is just about guns -- it's not.

[rauldc14]

Hes an *******. That's all I got to say. Hope he enjoys burning in hell.

[Topsy]

you can never know.

sadly im not even that shocked when i hear about these things anymore.

[ashdoc]

dont worry , the more of his co religionists come in your country the more numb you will become to these attacks because of the sheer regularity of them . in india ( my country ) we have become numb . happy liberalism !!

[The Gunslinger45]

Mourn the dead. Weep for their families. Try and do what you can for those affected. May the Lord accept them into the Kingdom of Heaven.

As for the shooter, the Lord has ways of dealing with the wicked and evil. May he enjoy eternal damnation.

[MovieMeditation]

ISIS.
Anders Breivik wasn't ISIS. The many highschool shooters wasn't ISIS...

Sometimes people are just ****ed up. But of course, a blame lies with the parents of those who grow into such psychopats like this.

[Sexy Celebrity]

This is being caused by ISIS ideas and devotion, at least.

[ashdoc]

the EURO football is going on right now . my bet is that an even bigger attack is coming in that sports spectacle , because france ( the host country ) is host to a lot of muslims .

[neiba]

the EURO football is going on right now . my bet is that an even bigger attack is coming in that sports spectacle , because france ( the host country ) is host to a lot of muslims .


stop being racist. it almost looks you want it to happen...

[Topsy]

yes theres alot of concern surrounding the euros...sadly im guessing somethings going to happen.

[CiCi]

the EURO football is going on right now . my bet is that an even bigger attack is coming in that sports spectacle , because france ( the host country ) is host to a lot of muslims .

They intercepted a large scale plot just before the event began, if I remember rightly anyway.

[Citizen Rules]

I just heard about this, how horrible. Is there a confirmed connection to ISIS or are people just thinking that.

[Camo]

I just heard about this, how horrible. Is there a confirmed connection to ISIS or are people just thinking that.

Not confirmed as far as i'm aware. Apparently he wasn't on any terrorist watchlists but he may have boasted about his terrorist links before. His dad says he believes he snapped because he saw two guys kissing not long ago.

POS :mad:

[Sexy Celebrity]

A father's probably gonna try to make his psychotic, mass murdering son look somewhat decent, though.

[ashdoc]

stop being racist. it almost looks you want it to happen...

if you look at my earlier posts about this topic of islamic terrorism , you will realise that i have been warning about the dangers of being too liberal and inviting hordes of these people in .

[ashdoc]

They intercepted a large scale plot just before the event began, if I remember rightly anyway.

jews are already running away from france---


http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/01/19/jewish-emigration-from-france-expected-to-rise-again-amidst-islamic-anti-semitism/

[Camo]

A father's probably gonna try to make his psychotic, mass murdering son look somewhat decent, though.

I agree i was just repeating what is being reported.

[Topsy]

A father's probably gonna try to make his psychotic, mass murdering son look somewhat decent, though.


sad if its homophobe is considered decent ;)

[Topsy]

im a bit worried about the finale tbh,given the security had no control overdrunk predicted football hooligans yesterday i dont think they`d have much controll if something were to happen.

[Citizen Rules]

I wonder if the shooter did it out of a twisted sense of religious righteous? or if he himself was a closeted gay and deeply angry/conflicted about it?

[ashdoc]

I wonder if the shooter did it out of a twisted sense of religious righteous? or if he himself was a closeted gay and deeply angry/conflicted about it?

his religion is totally opposed to homosexuality . other religions are opposed too , but islamic countries have the harshest laws against gay people .

[CiCi]

I wonder if the shooter did it out of a twisted sense of religious righteous? or if he himself was a closeted gay and deeply angry/conflicted about it?

I'm still quite shocked that a homophobic attack like this took place in the USA of all places, though. Of course it's all speculation at this point, but the fact it took place during a pride event and the attacker's own father thinks it was motivated by homophobia doesn't look good.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I wonder if the shooter did it out of a twisted sense of religious righteous? or if he himself was a closeted gay and deeply angry/conflicted about it?

Why not both?

[TONGO]

Im guessing he was an ISIS sympathizer who had a breakdown cause he realized he was gay. What isnt a guess is this dumbasses face is gonna be plastered all over the place for awhile, and not one victim will be put to memory.

Edit in - Damn Sexy we posted that at the same time.

[Sexy Celebrity]

his religion is totally opposed to homosexuality . other religions are opposed too , but islamic countries have the harshest laws against gay people .

Right -- they take gays and throw them off buildings for being gay.

[Topsy]

I wonder if the shooter did it out of a twisted sense of religious righteous? or if he himself was a closeted gay and deeply angry/conflicted about it?

if its not about religion,thats what i would think aswell.

[Frightened Inmate No. 2]

lots of great takes in this thread based on absolutely no information.

[Sexy Celebrity]

lots of great takes in this thread based on absolutely no information.

Go back to Tumblr.

[Topsy]

What isnt a guess is this dumbasses face is gonna be plastered all over the place for awhile, and not one victim will be put to memory.

.

THIS!

and they`ll give him some kind of halfassed nickname like the Gay Pride Killer.

[Sexy Celebrity]

and they`ll give him some kind of halfassed nickname like the Gay Pride Killer.

If he's ISIS and gay, they'll have to call him the ISISSY.

[The Gunslinger45]

Im guessing he was an ISIS sympathizer who had a breakdown cause he realized he was gay. What isnt a guess is this dumbasses face is gonna be plastered all over the place for awhile, and not one victim will be put to memory.

Edit in - Damn Sexy we posted that at the same time.

And you just nailed one of my biggest issues with the media.

[ashdoc]

so nice of you people to be trying to find non religious explanations to this act--like conflicted gay etc . so liberal....

tell you what--i am proud of ya all :D

[Sexy Celebrity]

And you just nailed one of my biggest issues with the media.

I put his pictures up in case people hadn't seen them -- and to shame him. I'm kinda tired of people going, "DON'T SHOW HIS PICTURE!" I believe in showing everything.

[The Gunslinger45]

I put his pictures up in case people hadn't seen them -- and to shame him. I'm kinda tired of people going, "DON'T SHOW HIS PICTURE!" I believe in showing everything.

That is not the issue. We give more airtime to the shooters and not the victims. My issue is not with you Sexy. It is with the mainstream media.

[honeykid]

And you just nailed one of my biggest issues with the media.
Gotta keep that green rolling in, GS. What would you rather? News or something? ;)


so nice of you people to be trying to find non religious explanations to this act--like conflicted gay etc . so liberal....

tell you what--i am proud of ya all :D
So am I. I'd have this happen everyday if we could keep living this way.

[Sexy Celebrity]

So am I. I'd have this happen everyday if we could keep living this way.

Oh, yes. Let's just have a shooting/terrorist attack everyday.

[Citizen Rules]

so nice of you people to be trying to find non religious explanations to this act--like conflicted gay etc . so liberal....

tell you what--i am proud of ya all :DI'm not dismissing the fact that the shooter most likely was motivated by Jihadist ISIS terror attacks.

But it's odd he choose a gay bar. I haven't heard of gays being targeted by Islamic extremest before.

So it would seem his choice was a personal choice based on some demented anger issues about gays.

[honeykid]

Oh, yes. Let's just have a shooting/terrorist attack everyday.

Yeah, that's really not what I said at all. Don't be a dick with this.

[Topsy]

what? arnt gays being thrown from buildings and the likes?

[Sexy Celebrity]

I am not at all surprised that he attacked a gay club.

Not at all surprised.

I've been expecting this kind of thing to happen. And I will direly predict that more of this is going to happen if Hillary Clinton gets elected. It's already been horrendous all during President Barack Obama's term.

These people are religious extremists. They don't like gay people. They don't like how accepting we've been of gay and transgender people in America. We're pissing them off and they're showing us how much they don't like it through acts like what happened last night in Orlando, Florida.

[The Gunslinger45]

I'm not dismissing the fact that the shooter most likely was motivated by Jihadist ISIS terror attacks. A copy cat attack.

But it's odd he choose a gay bar. I haven't heard of gays being targeted by Islamic Extremest before.

So it would seem his choice was a personal choice based on some demented anger issues about gays.

Gays are targeted and executed in the middle east. Several countries in the middle east have the death penalty for homosexuality.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Yeah, that's really not what I said at all. Don't be a dick with this.

I will be a dick because you've always got your head up your ass, constantly telling people you know the truth and nobody else does.

[ashdoc]

what? arnt gays being thrown from buildings and the likes?

yeah


http://aranews.net/2016/04/isis-extremists-throw-five-men-off-roof-gay/

[CiCi]

I think I know what Citizen means, ISIS have been around for some time now, and it seems a bit odd to suddenly be targeting gays after they've chosen not to for quite a long time already.

[honeykid]

I will be a dick because you've always got your head up your ass, constantly telling people you know the truth and nobody else does.

Well, so long as you acknowledge you're being a dick about it.

[Citizen Rules]

I am not at all surprised that he attacked a gay club.

Not at all surprised.

I've been expecting this kind of thing to happen. And I will direly predict that more of this is going to happen if Hillary Clinton gets elected. It's already been horrendous all during President Barack Obama's term.

These people are religious extremists. They don't like gay people. They don't like how accepting we've been of gay and transgender people in America. We're pissing them off and they're showing us how much they don't like it through acts like what happened last night in Orlando, Florida. It's more likely that the U.S.A. has been spared the full brunt of ISIS attacks because we had a President who tried to be fair to Islam. And his father had been a Muslim. You can thank Obama for helping to keep America safer.

If Trump got elected with his bigotry and hatred towards ALL Muslims, the U.S.A. then would be seen as enemy #1 and terrorist attacks would be all the worse here.

We need Hillary to keep us safer, not the Muslim hater Trump.

[matt72582]

the EURO football is going on right now . my bet is that an even bigger attack is coming in that sports spectacle , because france ( the host country ) is host to a lot of muslims .

stated gleefully

[Yoda]

General reminder, to no one in particular, to draw the line at personal insults. I always try to be looser about this stuff when emotions run high in the aftermath of tragedy, but please do make a good faith effort to be civil. I'd appreciate it.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I'm not gonna sit back here and act like, "Oh, let's not even consider the possibility that this was ISIS related... this is just a closet case homophobe who was pissed off at gay people... ooooooh. Oh dear. Let's not offend Muslims. Ohhhhhh."

50 people are dead. They're saying he had a connection to ISIS. This has happened before and will happen again.

[ashdoc]

honeykid already has written about his plans . live life for now and not think about the future . probably has no plans to have kids , so no worries about the future of next generation .

[Sexy Celebrity]

Well, so long as you acknowledge you're being a dick about it.

I'd rather be a dick than a big old wuss.

[ashdoc]

stated gleefully

stated from experience , not glee . my country ( india ) has suffered a lot already .

[honeykid]

honeykid already has written about his plans . live life for now and not think about the future . probably has no plans to have kids , so no worries about the future of next generation .

Absolutely correct. No kids for me.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Absolutely correct. No kids for me.

Thank God.

[The Gunslinger45]

Safer from Islam because Obama is fairer? Citizen I like ya dude, but that is BS.

Obama refused to refer to the Fort Hood shooter as a terrorist attack, refused to do the same for San Bernadino. Hell ISIS was not even a thing until Obama started to withdraw Troops from Iraq. And this was after he took credit for the dropping levels of violence due to the Surge that Bush started. And then I am supposed to say he is HELPING our Islamic relationship?

Let's be real here. The Islamo fascist powers that be HATE the West and Western civilization. You are not going to win over these people by being nice or giving them a fair shot. They will never like us, they won't change their mind about the West, they will only stop when they are dead and or they achieve their goal of a Global Caliphate. The biggest issue here is people's inability to point to LEGITIMATE EVIL in this world. Obama has done nothing to help make us safer. Hell I feel worse off. The last time I felt more secure about terrorist attacks is when George W Bush was in office.

[honeykid]

When did this happen, BTW? I only ask because I find it odd that it happened last night and yet the news only broke a couple of hours ago.

[matt72582]

stated from experience , not glee . my country ( india ) has suffered a lot already .

You never mention all the Hindi men who rape 6-yr old girls and go unpunished.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Obama refused to refer to the Fort Hood shooter as a terrorist attack, refused to do the same for San Bernadino, and then I am supposed to say he is HELPING our Islamic relationship?

Let's be real here. The Islamo fascist powers that be HATE the West and Western civilization. You are not going to win over these people by being nice or giving them a fair shot. They will never like us, they won't change their mind about the West, they will only stop when they are dead and or they achieve their goal of a Global Chaliphate. The biggest issue here is people's inability to point to LEGITIMATE EVIL in this world. Obama has done nothing to help make us safer. Hell I feel worse off. The last time I felt more secure about terrorist attacks is when George W Bush was in office.

Yep. I FEEL THE SAME.

We haven't had official terrorist attacks in our country -- THOUGH WE HAVE -- because Obama and crew don't want to refer to them as "terrorist attacks."

They're "shootings."

And all the blame is going on guns instead of Radical Islam.

[Sexy Celebrity]

If Obama had been President on 9/11, that would have just been "a bombing." Or just a plane attack.

Nobody would have even gone after Osama bin Laden. He wouldn't be blamed for it.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Thank God.

Honeykid just told me in a comment that I can Thank God if I want to, but as he doesn't exist, I'm just wasting my time.

Yet Honeykid kisses all the asses of Muslims and want us to tolerate their God. Us Christians can't have our religion, but they sure can have theirs.

[honeykid]

I haven't said anything about Muslims at all. I said that if the price of our liberal lives were terrorist attacks then I think it's a price worth paying.

Seriously, stop being a **** about this.

[Topsy]

Honeykid just told me in a comment that I can Thank God if I want to, but as he doesn't exist, I'm just wasting my time.


:lol:

[Sexy Celebrity]

I said that if the price of our liberal lives were terrorist attacks then I think it's a price worth paying.

I don't think we should be paying that price.

[honeykid]

Nor do I. Are you being deliberately dense or something?

[TONGO]

If Obama had been President on 9/11, that would have just been "a bombing." Or just a plane attack.

Nobody would have even gone after Osama bin Laden. He wouldn't be blamed for it.

Whoa! Thats some b.s. - Obama was the one that hunted Bin Laden down, not good ol boy Dubya'. Obama wouldnt have used it as an excuse to get us in Iraq. Thats the difference.

[Citizen Rules]

Obama refused to refer to the Fort Hood shooter as a terrorist attack, refused to do the same for San Bernadino, and then I am supposed to say he is HELPING our Islamic relationship? Those weren't (to my knowledge) ISIS operatives. They were, wanna be copy cat shootings. Obama is correct in not labeling ALL Muslims as bad people. When we start calling ALL Muslims a problem, that's the day the USA becomes like Nazi Germany and the day that we increase the ranks of ISIS membership. Only a tiny, tiny, tiny, number of Muslims world wide, belong to ISIS or other terrorist organizations. Most all Muslims are good people.

We've had terror bombings by deranged Christians, but no body blames all of Christianity for it (and I'm glad they don't blame them). We rightly blame the twisted individual who did the killing. So far all we know of the gay bar shooter is that he killed a lot of innocent people.

The last time I felt more secure about terrorist attacks is when George W Bush was in office. George W Bush is the man along with his master Dick Cheney that destabilized the entire middle east by toppling the one stable country that was a balance to extremist Islam...Iraq. The Arab spring, the rise of ISIS and Islamic jihadist is all linked back to the Bush administrations failed middle eastern war. I wish Gore had been President instead of Bush Jr.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Nor do I. Are you being deliberately dense or something?

The difference is you sound okay with having terrorists attacks if it means we can enjoy liberal freedoms. I'm NOT okay with having terrorists attacks, which is why I'll call them terrorist attacks and demand that we stop them -- instead of just brushing this off as "some homosexually repressed madman taking revenge."

Whoa! Thats some b.s. - Obama was the one that hunted Bin Laden down, not good ol boy Dubya'. Obama wouldnt have used it as an excuse to get us in Iraq. Thats the difference.

Obama finished a job started by George W. Bush. The public demanded Osama bin Laden's capture and death and if Obama wanted to look good, he had to find him.

I'm saying Obama wouldn't have even STARTED the job.

[Sexy Celebrity]

And so far the Gay Pride Shooter (SC's term, not mine)

Excuse me, but I did not call him The Gay Pride Shooter.

I called him ISISSY.

[Derek Vinyard]

Absolutely correct. No kids for me.

Me neither I could guarantee that

[Sexy Celebrity]

Me neither I could guarantee that

In your case, that's a shame.

[Citizen Rules]

Excuse me, but I did not call him The Gay Pride Shooter.

I called him ISISSY.Sorry, I thought you coined that phrase in an earlier post. I know I read it on this thread somewhere. I'll edit my post.

[ashdoc]

You never mention all the Hindi men who rape 6-yr old girls and go unpunished.

thats because they are not famous .

the most famous man who married a 6 year old aisha/ayesha and never got punished for that was this person---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

[Topsy]

Sorry, I thought you coined that phrase in an earlier post. I know I read it on this thread somewhere. I'll edit my post.


that was me :) Only to say that the media was going to give him some kind of nickname

[Topsy]

Me neither I could guarantee that

me three.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Only to say that the media was going to give him some kind of nickname

They're not gonna give him a nickname. They're gonna give him a Nobel Peace Prize.

[Citizen Rules]

Thanks Topsy:)

[Sexy Celebrity]

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25865&stc=1&d=1465759535

[Topsy]

They're not gonna give him a nickname. They're gonna give him a Nobel Peace Prize.

well they did give one to obama for no reason,but i dont think its gone that far yet ;)

[matt72582]

thats because they are not famous .

the most famous man who married a 6 year old aisha/ayesha and never got punished for that was this person---

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

I read a story ever week about another Hindi man raping a child, but you report on everything except that. I just don't like when things are cherry-picked.. The bible says the same stuff about homosexuals..

It's the same when murder happens - the media tries to imply the boogeyman of the year. There were 350 mass shootings last year, only two were Muslim, but no one wants to point fingers at themselves, even though it's silly to define ourselves by skin pigment.

When innocent Syrians are killed by the hundreds, it won't even get on the TV, after all, a gorilla was killed...

[The Gunslinger45]

Those weren't (to my knowledge) ISIS operatives. They were, wanna be copy cat shootings. Obama is correct in not labeling ALL Muslims as bad people. When we start calling ALL Muslims a problem, that's the day the USA becomes like Nazi Germany and the day that we increase the ranks of ISIS membership. Only a tiny, tiny, tiny, number of Muslims world wide, belong to ISIS or other terrorist organizations. Most all Muslims are good people. We've had terror bombings by deranged Christians, but no body blames all of Christianity for it (and I'm glad they don't blame them). We rightly blame the twisted individual who did the killing. So far all we know of The Gay Pride Shooter (SC's term, not mine) is that he killed a lot of innocent people.

George W Bush is the man along with his master Dick Cheney that destabilized the entire middle east by toppling the one stable country that was a balance to extremist Islam...Iraq. The Arab spring, the rise of ISIS and Islamic jihadist is all linked back to the Bush administrations failed middle eastern war. I wish Gore had been President instead of Bush Jr.

And we have some common ground. Not ALL Muslims are bad people. I know, I have talked to them and seen them. But when we refuse to call Terrorism for what it is, Terrorism, out of some need to tow the PC line we have an issue.

Major Nadal Hassan expressed sympathy to the Islamic fascist cause. He was not reported to his superiors because they did not want to be called racist. The San Bernadino shooters were the same believes of the same political laced Islamic fascism as ISIS and the like. They are terrorists. Something that Obama refuses to admit. Burying your head in the sand to the truth does not make this country safer, it makes it weaker and puts us at greater risks. And this thing that people do of bringing in Christianity into the argument is flat out DUMB (not by you in particular, others I have heard in the media) because this is not a debate about RELIGION it is a POLITICAL IDEOLOGY that drapes itself in religion! But no, the powers that be have to "lean forward" and show how open minded and "progressive" they are by refusing to acknowledge evil acts by evil people because they just so happen to be of a certain group of people.

Are there people who think all Muslims are bad? Sure. They are dead wrong. But let's face it the Left has a huge issue of making the distinction between Terrorists and regular human beings who are not murderous ********, and just so happen to practice Islam. So much so that the Left will call anyone criticizing the Terrorists as racist. And it is ridiculous!

As for said Islamic fascists, they have existed for years before 9/11. They attacked the American Embassy in Kenya, they attacked a US Navel ship in Yemen, they took hostages and killed people in Munich during the Olympics, but no one gave a crap about them until 9/11. Hell Clinton had his shot to take out Bin Laden and he never did. Hell Reagan had his shot to help rebuild Afghanistan after funding the Mujahadeen and he failed there. Then the crazies took power and the Taliban took hold.

Was Bush perfect? Hell no. Was the Middle East a bastion of paradise of peace before the Iraq War? Not even close. But between Obama and W, I take W in a heart beat. For all his failings he knew who the enemy was and knew the proper response.

[ashdoc]

I read a story ever week about another Hindi man raping a child, but you report on everything except that. I just don't like when things are cherry-picked.. The bible says the same stuff about homosexuals..

It's the same when murder happens - the media tries to imply the boogeyman of the year. There were 350 mass shootings last year, only two were Muslim, but no one wants to point fingers at themselves, even though it's silly to define ourselves by skin pigment.

When innocent Syrians are killed by the hundreds, it won't even get on the TV, after all, a gorilla was killed...

this is a western forum filled with western people . hindi/hindu men are not reported to have started to threaten the west with rapes of six year old girls . so a thread on them has not been started . i will post on it when it is started .

psst....why dont you do the august task of starting a thread on hindi/hindu men raping six year olds :D

[Camo]

Apparently a planned attack at a gay pride parade in LA was stopped ,

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/West-Hollywood-LA-Pride-Parade-382614931.html

[Sexy Celebrity]

TONGO.... Gunslinger said NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD.

[Camo]

The Muslim religion, no Im not Muslim, is the largest religion in the world, even bigger christianity.

No it isn't there is about a half billion more christians.

[TONGO]

Yeah I misread the post, and misread how you meant something in the middle of it too. Sorry about that Slinger, I deleted it.

[Camo]

I deleted it.

Damn should have quoted the full thing :D

[The Gunslinger45]

Yeah I misread the post, and misread how you meant something in the middle of it too. Sorry about that Slinger, I deleted it.

All good bro. I will delete my reaction.

[neiba]

And Trump just won a few more votes... Poor society...

[The Gunslinger45]

Let's get back to condemning the psycho and mourning the dead.

[Thursday Next]

This is so awful.

[ashdoc]

https://youtu.be/qBlwxqqAprQ

[Citizen Rules]

And Trump just won a few more votes... Poor society... That was my fear exactly, more votes for Trump thanks to this shooting.:(

Question for the board: Has the shooting in Florida changed your views at all on who you support for Pres?

[Sexy Celebrity]

And Trump just won a few more votes... Poor society... That was my fear exactly, more votes for Trump thanks to this shooting.:(
The media is already hard at work making Trump look bad, saying he's congratulating himself for letting people know how bad Radical Islam is.

[Mr Minio]

Sexy Celebrity, be careful. :*

[False Writer]

It's weird because just a week or so ago I was thinking about how there hasn't been a mass shooting reported in a while... Then I got on the internet today to find out that the deadliest shooting in US history just happened.

I just really don't know what to say anymore... It's obviously gonna happen again and no amount of political correctness or arguing is gonna change that.

RIP to the victims.

[Nostromo87]

Let me make sure I follow. Over 100 people killed or wounded... in a mass shooting... in a gay bar... with a killer linked to ISIS. Do we actually have people trying to excuse ISIS and find anything to blame it on other than what it is?

Radical Islamic Terrorism. The actual mutual enemy of both the left and the right. People actually think Radical Islamic Terrorists don't want to kill homosexuals? Radical Islamic Terrorists hate gay people, they hate America, they hate Western Society.

Imagine if instead of an ISIS killer the shooter had been a Trump supporter murdering homosexuals in cold blood in a gay bar. Trump himself would have already been branded The Devil. But ISIS, our actual real enemy is behind it, and people are trying to find excuses for ISIS SHOOTING OVER 100 INNOCENT VICTIMS.

Welcome to spineless bizarro loony land. It ends in November. Time to get tough. Time to get vigilant.

[honeykid]

Unless I've missed something, no one here is trying to excuse ISIS of anything.

[Citizen Rules]

Let me respond, Omni style:eek:;):p

Let me make sure I follow. Over 100 people killed or wounded... in a mass shooting... in a gay bar... with a killer linked to ISIS.There's no evidence at this time that the shooter was actually linked to ISIS. He did make a phone call claiming that...
The gunman, identified as 29-year-old Omar Mateen, made a 911 call on Sunday identifying himself and declared allegiance to the leader of the Islamic State, But that doesn't mean he has actually ties to ISIS. I suspect he's a wannabe ISIS terrorist (which is still a dangerous & disturbing trend, and it does concern me). The same kind of wannabe effect that happened with a few sick young American males copying the Columbine shooting. And either way it's a bad thing.

Do we actually have people trying to excuse ISIS and find anything to blame it on other than what it is? All good MoFos hate ISIS...so far there's no indication that this was a planned ISIS attack.

Radical Islamic Terrorism. The actual mutual enemy of both the left and the right. People actually think Radical Islamic Terrorists don't want to kill homosexuals? Radical Islamic Terrorists hate gay people, they hate America, they hate Western Society. The question was(and it was my question) has ISIS directly targeted gay people before?
Imagine if instead of an ISIS killer the shooter had been a Trump supporter murdering homosexuals in cold blood in a gay bar. Trump himself would have already been branded The Devil. I'm sure Trump will make some derogatory statement against Muslims in general...or Mexicans...or Women.

But ISIS, our actual real enemy is behind it, and people are trying to find excuses for ISIS SHOOTING OVER 100 INNOCENT VICTIMS Once again how do you know this was an ISIS operation? Let's not whip ourselves into a frenzy, I know that's what Trump does and that's a big part of the reason his followers support him.

Welcome to spineless bizarro loony land. It ends in November. Time to get tough. Time to get vigilant.Yeah team Trump...

[TONGO]

Man with weapons identified, ‘wanted to harm’ LA gay pride parade, chief says

LOS ANGELES — Authorities in Santa Monica found possible explosives as well as a cache of weapons and ammunition Sunday in the car of a man who told them he planned to look for a friend at the L.A. Pride festival in West Hollywood, a law enforcement source said.

Santa Monica Police Chief Jacqueline Seabrooks said on Twitter that the suspect told one of her officers that he wanted “to harm Gay Pride event” after he was arrested. But she did not provide any details, and officials said they are still trying to sort out his motives.

Seabrooks also identified the suspect as James Howell of Indiana. A Facebook page for someone with the same name in Indiana shows a young man posing next to a white Acura similar to the one found in Santa Monica with the weapons and explosives.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/man-with-weapons-identified-‘wanted-to-harm’-la-gay-pride-parade-chief-says/ar-AAgWTAx?li=BBnbfcL

[donniedarko]

I heard on the radio the shooter called the police beforehand and pledged allegiance to ISIS, so yes sounds like ISIS

[honeykid]

It appears that it is ISIS. In the same way that a kid who jumps out of a window trying to imitate Superman is from Krypton.

It certainly seems that he was inspired by ISIS but, as far as I know, that's as far as he's linked with them. He's probably watched videos and visited websites but, again as far as I know, he's had no contact with ISIS. He isn't part of any cell, plan or conspiracy.

From what I've seen, it appears he was a sad, pathetic, angry man who wanted to be more but couldn't or didn't know how to be and, having found a reason to 'justify' his feelings, vented that fury and frustration on people having a good time.

I wasn't surprised to see pics of him wearing clothing associated with respect, responsibility and power either. I don't know if he ever applied to any of those institutions, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out he had.

[Topsy]

Let me respond, Omni style:eek:;):p
The question was(and it was my question) has ISIS directly targeted gay people before?
.

ISIS have killed thousand of gays/suspected gays by throwing the off buildings and executing them before the crowds.
But the havent had a terror attack in th western world yet if thats what you ment. but that was bound to happen.

do people really believe trump has the know how to carry out an attack against isis? he is going to make things a 100% worse and youre going to loose so much international support if hes elected. people ww are watching the election with amusement as some kind of circus.

The media needs to careful about how they handle these kind of situations-sadly they have habite of almost making killers cool (type bonnie and clyde) with their 24/7 update on the killer,pictures with them posing with guns and the ridiculous nicknames. they should keep the coverage of the killer to minimum and focuse on the victims and the actual event.

[Nostromo87]

Largest mass shooting in US history.

The Islamic State radio calls Orlando mass shooter Omar Mir Saddique Mateen one of the soldiers of the caliphate.

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n617/frankog10/Link1_zpsefplinrt.jpg

The Husseini Islamic Center *in Orlando, FL* invited Dr. Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar to speak at their holy mosque, and Dr. Sekaleshfar -a Muslim scholar calls for death to gays (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ&app=desktop).

But let's not offend the Muslims, right? Spineless bizarro loony land.

[Topsy]

terror groups often take credit for something they werent involved in.is it confirmed he was involved with ISIS or did he just "look up to them"? because again,the media has to be careful when you have some many who could take inspiration from this.

i just read about someone who hid in the bathroom and was texting his mother through the whole thing,while the terrorist was in there. he was unfortunatly killed.

[honeykid]

Again, no one here's excusing Muslims or Islam.

Is it just coincidence that it's the Trumpers who can't get this?

[TONGO]

Again, no one here's excusing Muslims or Islam.

Is it just coincidence that it's the Trumpers who can't get this?

Trumps thralls fail to realize if The Donald were in office this still would have happened. He would have 0 effect. Is Trump going to make it legal for everyone to carry guns into nightclubs, schools, movie theaters, etc..., - no.

[Nostromo87]

Again, no one here's excusing Muslims or Islam.


The question was(and it was my question) has ISIS directly targeted gay people before?

It's not just ISIS, the Muslim community directly targets gay people, and there is evidence of it right there in Orlando, FL. Direct quote (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ&t=1m33s) from a Muslim scholar who spoke at a Mosque there "Out of compassion, let's get rid of them now."

[Nostromo87]

Trumps thralls fail to realize if The Donald were in office this still would have happened. He would have 0 effect. Is Trump going to make it legal for everyone to carry guns into nightclubs, schools, movie theaters, etc..., - no.

Now you know why he suggested a temporary ban of Muslims that everyone lost their minds over. There is evidence of Muslim mosques in America, in the very same city, that actually condone the murderous actions that happened

[honeykid]

But those two things aren't the same, nostomo.

CR asked if ISIS had directly targeted gay people. He didn't say they hadn't or say they wouldn't or anything. He simply asked if they had. That's not excusing anything. That's asking a question.

I have no time for Muslims who want to harm/kill/demonise gay people anymore than I am anyone else of any other religion, dogma, philosophy or whatever.

BTW, I've just noticed that CR and ISIS is CRISIS. :eek: Coincidence?


Yes. :D

[honeykid]

Now you know why he suggested a temporary ban of Muslims that everyone lost their minds over. There is evidence of Muslim mosques in America, in the very same city, that actually condone the murderous actions that happened

You think the former should lead to the latter? That actually is disturbing. I've always thought better of you, nostromo. :(

[Yoda]

Now you know why he suggested a temporary ban of Muslims that everyone lost their minds over. There is evidence of Muslim mosques in America, in the very same city, that actually condone the murderous actions that happened
The shooter was born in New York, guy.

[honeykid]

I think he was talking about the guy in the interview rather than the shooter, Yoda.

[Yoda]

In that case I fail to see how he's connecting the shooting with the ban. Unless he's suggesting that the ban of all members of a religion is justified if some of them say the wrong thing, which is at odds with 2/6ths of the things explicitly mentioned in the First Amendment.

[honeykid]

I couldn't see the connection either, which is why I questioned it.

[Nostromo87]

I think he was talking about the guy in the interview rather than the shooter, Yoda.

Yea, made it pretty clear.

If you're following along you will notice the context, Tongo talked about how things wouldn't be different with Trump. So I provided an example that *is* different. Simple, best not to warp context.

[Yoda]

Pretty sure I'm not the one warping context: the thing I quoted was you specifically replying to TONGO saying "Trumps thralls fail to realize if The Donald were in office this still would have happened."

So either you were suggesting what I just said, or else you were replying to him with a non-sequitur.

[TONGO]

Now you know why he suggested a temporary ban of Muslims that everyone lost their minds over. There is evidence of Muslim mosques in America, in the very same city, that actually condone the murderous actions that happened

Yea, made it pretty clear.

If you're following along you will notice the context, Tongo talked about how things wouldn't be different with Trump. So I provided an example that *is* different. Simple, best not to warp context.

You actually think Muslims should be shipped out of country? Have you heard what Hitler did with the jews?

You think a wall will stop illegal immigrants? Have you ever heard of a boat?

[DAnconiaLead]

According to the shooter's father it doesn't have anything to do with any connection to terrorist groups. His son saw two men kissing about a month or so ago and the father thinks that's what triggered the incident.

Omar Mateen is a Muslim which itself is a terrorist group.

Evidence of Islam's violent/terroristic nature can be found in the Qur'an which calls for the genocidal murder of all non-Islamic groups, including, but by no-means limited to Homosexuals;


Qur'an (7:80-84)- "...For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds.... And we rained down on them a shower (of brimstone)" - An account that is borrowed from the Biblical story of Sodom. Muslim scholars through the centuries have interpreted the "rain of stones" on the town as meaning that homosexuals should be stoned, since no other reason is given for the people's destruction.

Qur'an (7:81)- "Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?" This verse is part of the previous text and it establishes that homosexuality as different from (and much worse than) adultery or other sexual sin. According to the Arabic grammar, homosexuality is called the worst sin, while references elsewhere describe other forms of non-marital sex as being "among great sins."

Qur'an (26:165-166)- "Of all the creatures in the world, will ye approach males, "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay, ye are a people transgressing"



Qur'an (4:16)- "If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone

Please do not believe that you are 'safe' from Islamic-violence just because you are not a homosexual. I can cite similar verses from the Qur'an calling for the murder and/or torture of almost every non-Muslim group as well as proclamations from Islamic-Leaders calling for the murder and/or torture of each other Islamic group...

[Topsy]

lol you cant ban all muslims access to the country,
however if you leave to join the isis you shouldnt be allowed back imo.

there also needs to be better controll,is theres mosques that promote this kind of violence then the speaker should
be arrested for promoting hate crimes and removed from the mosque.
also there needs to be better control online as theres were alot of the recuitment takes place.

[donniedarko]

there also needs to be better controll,is theres mosques that promote this kind of violence then the speaker should
be arrested for promoting hate crimes and removed from the mosque.
also there needs to be better control online as theres were alot of the recuitment takes place.

Yet liberals were enraged and called Cruz and islamaphobic when he said that he suggested to patrol Muslim communities (http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/22/politics/ted-cruz-muslim-neighborhoods/). How else can we get this stuff done?

[False Writer]

But those two things aren't the same, nostomo.

CR asked if ISIS had directly targeted gay people. He didn't say they hadn't or say they wouldn't or anything. He simply asked if they had. That's not excusing anything. That's asking a question.


But how does that make things any different? If you and CR know they have killed gay people then that's bad enough. Why is not knowing if they've "directly targeted" gay people make it any better?

[DAnconiaLead]

You actually think Muslims should be shipped out of country? Have you heard what Hitler did with the jews?




Given the similarities between Islamic and Nazi philosophy, coupled with the fact that large numbers of Muslims actually joined the Nazi's during WWII, removing these 'people' from civilized countries would bear more of a resemblance to the efforts of Post-war Germany and Britain to outlaw Nazism then it would what the Nazis did to the Jews....

[Yoda]

I'm going to issue exactly one warning on this: tread very lightly with this Nazi stuff, or with huge generalizations about an entire group of people. It's fair to talk about demographic differences and how they may correlate with other things, but if I see more posts in the vein of some of these recent ones, I'm going to take action.

[Nostromo87]

Pretty sure I'm not the one warping context: the thing I quoted was you specifically replying to TONGO saying "Trumps thralls fail to realize if The Donald were in office this still would have happened."

So either you were suggesting what I just said, or else you were replying to him with a non-sequitur.

I gave an example of Donald Trump providing bold ideas to address the issue of violent Muslim ideology that is costing American lives in our country, in light of the largest mass shooting in US history.

Concluding, the issue is violent Muslim ideology, that I am not saying all Muslims share yet a lot do, and it's a problem that needs to be addressed and it's not going to be easy or make everyone happy. It's not even necessarily about getting a certain person in office. This killer is the child of immigrants from Afghanistan. Link (http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-mateen-who-is-family-father-wife-parents-bio-orlando-mass-shooting/). His father expresses gratitude toward the Afghan Taliban and denounces the Pakistani government. People like this are a threat to American lives. What's important is taking bold measures to make it less likely that mass murder will happen like this again.

I'm sure that this discussion will keep going for a while, but I've got to go to history class. 20th Century Europe. which brings me to
@Tongo, you don't need to lecture me on Hitler and the Jews. I'll put my understanding of that period up against almost anyone. The Jews also weren't mass murdering Germans then. I will say there are some similarities, but the situations aren't exactly parallel. Anyways, back later

[Citizen Rules]

It's not just ISIS, the Muslim community directly targets gay people, and there is evidence of it right there in Orlando, FL. Direct quote (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qBlwxqqAprQ&t=1m33s) from a Muslim scholar who spoke at a Mosque there "Out of compassion, let's get rid of them now." Thanks for posting that Nostro!....You guys really should check out his link, it's a youtube video of a Florida news station report, that interviews a Muslim scholar from Iran who's speaking this week in Florida at a Muslim learning center. This guy is sick! and has preached death to gays in the past.

This is a direct quote from the Muslim Scholar on what should be done with gays:
"Death is the sentence, we know, there's nothing to be embarrassed about this, death is the sentence."..."We have to have that compassion for people, with homosexuals, it's the same, out of compassion, let's get rid of them now." That's hate language and it should be stopped before it starts.

A LOT of the hatred towards the west by radicalized Muslims comes from the teachings of their religious leaders. We do have hate language laws in the U.S.....We need to consider expanding those laws to cover hate language being preached & taught in all religious institutions, including Islamic mosque.

Yes it's a slippery slope that we need to be careful with, but these mosque (and any religious institutions that preach hatred) need to be curtailed as this is where radicals are 'born'.

[Topsy]

^^ yes ive noticed that people are able to spread their hate pretty freely (seen some have hate seminars in colleges as guest speakers and such) and thats a problem.

we have the same problem here in norway. we have a few very outspoken hate preachers that we cant seem to get rid off because of our "love all,dont hate-everyone is allowed to speak their minds" rules. which is ironic considering they are using that rule to spread hate.

[donniedarko]

I'm going to issue exactly one warning on this: tread very lightly with this Nazi stuff, or with huge generalizations about an entire group of people. It's fair to talk about demographic differences and how they may correlate with other things, but if I see more posts in the vein of some of these recent ones, I'm going to take action.

I agree that while we shouldn't classify muslims as nazis, I don't think an idelogical comparison of Islam and it's teaching and nazism should be censored though.

[donniedarko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APQVkJcZMKI

I believe it's getting hard to deny that Islam and the Qu'ran have some dangerous teachings. While muslims aren't the problem, Islam might be

[Sexy Celebrity]

A LOT of the hatred towards the west by radicalized Muslims comes from the teachings of their religious leaders. We do have hate language laws in the U.S.....We need to consider expanding those laws to cover hate language being preached & taught in all religious institutions, including Islamic mosque.
I don't care if anyone hates anybody or anything. Telling people to go out and kill people, though.......

But Hell -- you see that kind of talk on the internet. I've been reading the nasty Youtube comments. Everybody wants to kill somebody, it seems.

[Captain Steel]

People are debating whether this shooter (like the San Bernardino shooters & others) was "directed" by ISIS or "inspired" by ISIS.

Does it really make that much of a difference?

Either way these "lone wolfs" (which is somewhat of a misnomer itself) are following the same exact ideology of Islam that ISIS is following. The real issue is what to do about a fascist, supremacist, genocidal political ideology that wraps itself in the trappings of a religion.

It's like, would we not call the Bundists of WWII "Nazis"? Would it really matter if they were directed by the masterminds behind the Nazi party or simply inspired by them, considering they were operational on American shores?
For the most part, they were off the Radar of the Third Reich & the Gestapo in Germany. They were really more inspired by the Nazis rather than directed by them. Sure, Nazis liked the idea that they had sympathetic followers in America (just like ISIS is thrilled by the idea of all these "lone wolfs" following the same fundamental terrorist tenets of Islam). But just because every Bund group was not "directed" by the Third Reich, we wouldn't say they were NOT Nazis, did not follow the Nazi ideology or were any less a threat to the American homeland.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I know, Captain Steel. As far as I'm concerned, Omar Canteen, whatever his name was, was ISIS. Maybe unauthorized ISIS, but ISIS in his own way.

[Yoda]

I gave an example of Donald Trump providing bold ideas to address the issue of violent Muslim ideology that is costing American lives in our country, in light of the largest mass shooting in US history.
You say "address the issue," but the issue was the shooting (both in the thread and in the post you were replying to), and it wouldn't have stopped that.

You can't just throw all this into a box called "Problems With Islamic Radicalism" and act like any part of the problem is an example of why we need to do some other, totally unrelated thing about it. This shooting doesn't in any way prove the wisdom of Trump's proposed ban: it's unrelated at best, and an argument against it at worst, because it seems like a pretty clear example of why it would be ineffective.

@Tongo, you don't need to lecture me on Hitler and the Jews. I'll put my understanding of that period up against almost anyone. The Jews also weren't mass murdering Germans then. I will say there are some similarities, but the situations aren't exactly parallel. Anyways, back later
I'll agree with this. The Nazi comparisons, like virtually all Nazi comparisons, are over the top, and we've totally diluted the topic with the sheer ease and frequency with which we invoke it.

[Sexy Celebrity]

"Nazi" is just a fun word to say.

Nazi Nazi, Bo Bazi, Banana Fanna Mo Mazi, Fe Fi Fo Fazi... NAZI!

[Topsy]

yup cencoring is dangerous,though sometimes needed. having a country divded by hate from boths sides isnt going help the situation.and might even push some over the fence.

but at the same time-over here we had a wave of brutal rape attacks,all by foreigners who think women like us who talk and dress as we want,drink and do what want-deserves to be rapes. and nobody is speaking about it because if we do we are racists right? sweden who has had the same problem have considered going to the length of not revealing the colour/ethnicity of a person when reporting on sexual assaults to prevent hate againt foreigners.

so cencoring is a problem,but the problem is also to find the line between when its helpful and when its dividing people even more.

[Citizen Rules]

But how does that make things any different? If you and CR know they have killed gay people then that's bad enough. Why is not knowing if they've "directly targeted" gay people make it any better? Hi False Writer, I do not know that ISIS has killed gay people before. I don't have TV and I don't read the news. Seriously, I use to follow the news but then burnt out on all the crap that happens in the world. Only if a major story breaks do I read about it and mainly I read it at MoFo (with a little help from google too). So I have very little knowledge of what ISIS does. As far as I know they seem to commit atrocities in North Africa and blow up innocent people in France and Northern Europe. That's why I was quite surprised to hear that a gay bar was targeted, and why I asked if this was something new for them or not.

I don't care if anyone hates anybody or anything. Telling people to go out and kill people, though.......

But Hell -- you see that kind of talk on the internet. I've been reading the nasty Youtube comments. Everybody wants to kill somebody, it seems. Maybe you don't care, but I'm deeply disturbed that someone from Iran is giving a speech on killing gays in a community center building in America. That's much different than one nut saying hate language crap on the internet.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I don't care if they hate gays or wanna preach that gays are sinful and will burn in Hell (or whatever punishment they believe in.)

But going out and telling people to kill? To instruct people to kill? Of course that's bad. If they're serious.

[Topsy]

why wouldnt you care about that?

[Sexy Celebrity]

why wouldnt you care about that?
Free speech. If you have a view like that, why should you be prevented from having it? As long as you don't actually hurt people.

[Topsy]

but hurting people is exactly what that leads to

[Sexy Celebrity]

but hurting people is exactly what that leads to
Not liking gay people? Thinking they're sinful and going to Hell?

[TONGO]

@Tongo, you don't need to lecture me on Hitler and the Jews. I'll put my understanding of that period up against almost anyone. The Jews also weren't mass murdering Germans then. I will say there are some similarities, but the situations aren't exactly parallel. Anyways, back later

Ive discovered my "way" of arguing isnt the strongest. Im sorry, my wordage has been too incindiary. If anyones wondered, no I would NOT hit a Trump supporter at a rally. I would yell at them though :yup: I get carried away "yelling" here and it may mean me arse, and the loss of some buds. So I think it best going forward I just post an article here n there, sit back, and shut up.

[Topsy]

Not liking gay people? Thinking they're sinful and going to Hell?

yes.how many gays have been killed because of that?
you think it should be allowed to spread hate against a certain group of people in public forum?
what good is that going to lead to?

[Yoda]

It's not that hate speech leads to good things: it's that giving people the authority to decide what can be said is worse.

[Topsy]

thats why i said that cencorship is such a difficult topic but still needed at times.

you cant sit by and watch things like that happen.

[Captain Steel]

but hurting people is exactly what that leads to

Other religions are largely beyond this (outside of perhaps an extremely small number of aberrant fringe groups or a relative handful of psychotic individuals).

They can disagree with behaviors or lifestyles (that don't harm anyone else) yet still engage in peaceful co-existence and uphold the basic human rights of others. Most religions do not believe that they have any divinely sanctioned "right" to murder others who simply live or believe differently or choose to seek a different religious path.

Most religions have learned to adapt, assimilate and function perfectly fine in secular, democratic societies that respect freedom of religion.

Other religions function just fine, relatively speaking, in societies where freedom of speech is practiced. There aren't global terrorist movements or continual worldwide mass murders coming from other religions because they hear other opinions, witness other lifestyles & cultures, or (*gasp*) are subject to open criticism themselves.

Only fundamentalist Islam has tenets, teachings and scriptures that direct individuals to personally commit violence on others for having different beliefs or practice a different lifestyle. It teaches that they are not only authorized by God to disregard all the laws of man & secular governments (to enforce their totalitarian Sharia law), but they are duty-bound to convert (by intimidation, threat, torture, terrorism & force), to subjugate & enslave, or to destroy all non-believers, apostates or anyone who doesn't practice their interpretation of Islam.

[Topsy]

Gays have been killed and isolated "in the name of" christianity aswell as other religions.

what do you think these speeches is for? its part of the recruitment-getting the word out there and promoting themself and their views-fuilling those who already had some of the same views.

i personally do not think that should be allowed.

[TONGO]

Names of Orlando mass shooting victims emerging

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/breakingnews/names-of-orlando-mass-shooting-victims-emerging/ar-AAgX9J7?li=BBnbkly

From the article below are the photographs of some of the victims. The article speaks of each of them, and others.

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgXcQ9.img?h=643&w=1019&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=410&y=292

Edward Sotomayor Jr., 34 years old

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgX49O.img?h=658&w=963&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=345&y=260

Stanley Almodovar III, 23 years old

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgXPoN.img?h=658&w=658&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=164&y=267

Luis Omar Ocasio-Capo, 20 years old

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgXVaI.img?h=658&w=658&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=235&y=85

Juan Ramon Guerrero, 22 years old

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgXIMk.img?h=560&w=476&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=189&y=236

Eric Ivan Ortiz-Rivera, 36 years old

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgYZAE.img?h=658&w=658&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=202&y=198

Peter O. Gonzalez-Cruz, 22 years old

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgXsO5.img?h=596&w=1019&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f&x=380&y=258

Luis S. Vielma, 22 years old

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgXC2r.img?h=560&w=559&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Kimberly Morris, 37 years old

[Topsy]

horrible.
RIP

[Yoda]

i personally do not think that should be allowed.
But that's not the only question. You're asking "do I like this speech?" The question should be: "do I like the idea that other people can decide which speech is allowed?"

It seems fine when the people in power largely think the same way you do, but they won't always be. Someday, it's going to be someone else, someone you don't agree with. And a rule that only works if the "right" people determine it isn't a good rule at all. The best laws, and the best systems of governments, are the ones that aren't reliant on good people to work well. If things can be good or bad largely dependent on the personality of the person in charge, we might as well go back to monarchies.

[Sexy Celebrity]

http://img-s-msn-com.akamaized.net/tenant/amp/entityid/AAgXC2r.img?h=560&w=559&m=6&q=60&o=f&l=f

Kimberly Morris, 37 years old

Kimberly?

[Topsy]

https://imbo.vgc.no/users/vgno/images/ee5d9d9b49ea7ed703b3c1b72afcd884?t%5B%5D=crop%3Awidth%3D530%2Cheight%3D451%2Cx%3D0%2Cy%3D0&t%5B%5D=maxSize%3Awidth%3D270&publicKey=drpublish&accessToken=5ec3605d6fcf0876b60838dd30e580e9f8af413546deaf115098c497f29e956e

Eddie Justice (30)
Ïn the midst of the chaos,Eddie sendt a text to his mother-who was at home sleeping.
"Mommy i love you.at the club.they`re shooting"
She tried to call him but got no answer,she texted him back and asked if he was okay.
He replied that he was trapped in the bathroom and asked her to call the cops right away.
30 minutes later she got another texted saying: "He`s coming now" "Im gonna die"
Later he said they were trapped in the bathroom,he`s got them and the police needs to come save them now,
she then asked him if the shooter was in the bathroom with them. he first replied "hes terror" untill she got the last text saying "yes"
after 15 hours of waiting she then got the horrible message that her son had been one of the victims and did not survive the attack.


**translatet from a norwegian article

[Captain Steel]

Gays have been killed and isolated "in the name of" christianity aswell as other religions.

what do you think these speeches is for? its part of the recruitment-getting the word out there and promoting themself and their views-fuilling those who already had some of the same views.

i personally do not think that should be allowed.

In modern times, as part of a global movement that practices and preaches the fundamental tenets of Christianity?

(Recall that I said other religions are largely beyond this - meaning here we're talking about modern times, as opposed to say the Middle Ages where the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" was completely corrupted by Papists & other power-hungry groups.)

Of course, I acknowledge isolated atrocities committed by violent & biased individuals. But of the major religions (none of which, btw, "agree" with homosexuality as a religiously ordained set of behaviors) ...none have any modern mandates to put homosexuals to death as being a practiced or enforced tenet of their religion (except one).

In Iran, homosexuality is a "crime" that is "punished" by death because the government of Iran is one that is ruled by Islam.

I don't know of any country where Christianity is in the majority (or any other religion except Islam) where summary executions of human beings for being homosexual occurs.

My overall point here is that free speech works pretty well in the presence of all major religions, except for those fundamentally based on the idea of eliminating all freedoms and replacing them with a totalitarian ideology that seeks an openly stated goal of religious supremacy via conquest & genocide.

[Topsy]

But that's not the only question. You're asking "do I like this speech?" The question should be: "do I like the idea that other people can decide which speech is allowed?"

It seems fine when the people in power largely think the same way you do, but they won't always be. Someday, it's going to be someone else, someone you don't agree with. And a rule that only works if the "right" people determine it isn't a good rule at all. The best laws, and the best systems of governments, are the ones that aren't reliant on good people to work well. If things can be good or bad largely dependent on the personality of the person in charge, we might as well go back to monarchies.

i understand your point of view.

but if the rules are set about what benefits the public and what is too hurtful/hatefull then those in power needs to follow those aswell.

im not saying people shouldnt be allowed to speak out against things but when things are downright hateful and harmful to the public then it has no place in the public forum and should not be promoted

[Yoda]

but if the rules are set about what benefits the public and what is too hurtful/hatefull then those in power needs to follow those aswell.
Everyone claims their ideas are "what benefits the public." That's the whole point.

If you give people the power to restrict speech, eventually, someone's going to wield it in a way you don't like. And what happens then? Then you find yourself trying to speak out against someone who has the power to decide what people are allowed to speak out against.

im not saying people should be allowed to speak out against things but when things are downright hateful and harmful to the public then it has no place in the public forum and should not be promoted
And who decides what's harmful to the public? That's the question. It's missing the point entirely to say "Oh, I agree, except for the really hateful and harmful stuff!"

[Topsy]

In modern times, as part of a global movement that practices and preaches the fundamental tenets of Christianity?

(Recall that I said other religions are largely beyond this - meaning here we're talking about modern times, as opposed to say the Middle Ages where the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" was completely corrupted by Papists & other power-hungry groups.)

Of course, I acknowledge isolated atrocities committed by violent & biased individuals. But of the major religions (none of which, btw, "agree" with homosexuality as a religiously ordained set of behaviors) ...none have any modern mandates to put homosexuals to death as being a practiced or enforced tenet of their religion (except one).

In Iran, homosexuality is a "crime" that is "punished" by death because the government of Iran is one that is ruled by Islam.

I don't know of any country where Christianity is in the majority (or any other religion except Islam) where summary executions of human beings for being homosexual occurs.

My overall point here is that free speech works pretty well in the presence of all major religions, except for those fundamentally based on the idea of eliminating all freedoms and replacing them with a totalitarian ideology that seeks an openly stated goal of religious supremacy via conquest & genocide.


But religion isnt really my problem here. I dont see how its useful or how it benefits the GP to be exposed to such hatred?

Im not saying you cant be critical about something,but should a speech condemning and showing hate for (for example) gays be allowed in a public forum?on television? in churches/mosques/ whereever?

theres nothing useful behind it,theres no bigger picture.its just hate.

[Topsy]

Everyone claims their ideas are "what benefits the public." That's the whole point.

If you give people the power to restrict speech, eventually, someone's going to wield it in a way you don't like. And what happens then? Then you find yourself trying to speak out against someone who has the power to decide what people are allowed to speak out against.


And who decides what's harmful to the public? That's the question. It's missing the point entirely to say "Oh, I agree, except for the really hateful and harmful stuff!"


thats why there needs to be a law.so it cant be twisted andchanged to benifit some politician or whatever.

since it started with the gay thing i`ll use it as an example. Preaching about it being a sin and speaking about it in a harmful way by spreading hate.
What is the bigger picture? nothing. theres no reason for it.

what is the reason for a isis supporter to be allowed to hold seminars on an open street about killing all westerens? No bigger picture-theres no reason for it.

if theres a cause for it,if theres someone working towards a solution to a problem,if someone is protesting something thats wrong.
freedom of speech yes.

if its only to spread hate and negativity
then it has no place here.

its difficult to get my point across in a different language so i apoligize if it just comes out as rambling.

[Captain Steel]

But religion isnt really my problem here. I dont see how its useful or how it benefits the GP to be exposed to such hatred?

Im not saying you cant be critical about something,but should a speech condemning and showing hate for (for example) gays be allowed in a public forum?on television? in churches/mosques/ whereever?

theres nothing useful behind it,theres no bigger picture.its just hate.

I can agree with you that it's just hate.

And you talked about the idea that it not be promoted. Promoting, supporting, advertising, boycotting, opposing and protesting speech is all part of the "free speech" system. So I fully support anyone's right to do any of these.

So, by all means, exercise the right to oppose & protest the promotion of hate speech & terrorism (something you won't find most of main-stream Islam doing.)

One purpose this specific form of speech might serve is to educate the apologists as to exactly what Islam teaches.

And keep in mind, LBGT folks aren't the only people that fundamentalist Islam wants destroyed, so don't be surprised at future targets (which will be pretty much everything we know, hold dear, or count on as places that are "safe".)

Until people start telling the truth about Islam, continual "man-caused mass casualty events" will be our reality as it is on a daily basis in Israel, in the Mid-East, in parts of Africa, throughout Europe and in parts of Asia.

You can't deal with any problem if you can't (or in our case, won't) even identify what the problem is.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Im not saying you cant be critical about something,but should a speech condemning and showing hate for (for example) gays be allowed in a public forum?on television? in churches/mosques/ whereever?

theres nothing useful behind it,theres no bigger picture.its just hate.

No, there is something useful behind it, I feel.

IT'S THERE.

It's there and it's an outlet for people who don't hold the same beliefs about gays.

It's for people who don't like gays. They can hear it and maybe if they hear it, maybe if they realize there's other people out there who feel as they feel.... then maybe they won't attack us. Maybe they won't attack us.

'Cause I honestly think this attack at Pulse Night Club was caused by there being so much acceptance of gays and transgender people in the media today.... without ever really.... toning it down or just showing another point of view.

I think this happened because of how big the gay/transgender issue has been in the media in the past few years. That's why I said I'm not surprised. But I don't believe the solution is stopping people from having another point of view. I think trying to stop people from having another point of view is why this kind of thing happened. You are sending a message to people that they're wrong.... that they're not even human if they don't like gays.....

You know how gays get royally pissed at not being included? Well, these psychos are getting royally pissed at not being included, too. So you've GOT to give them their space, their own forum to speak their mind. You can't take away something to give to someone else.

[DAnconiaLead]

Gays have been killed and isolated "in the name of" christianity aswell as other religions.




Protecting the right of underage girls to use public bathrooms without being leered at by 40-year old MALES is not "isolat(ing)" LGBT people, merely applying the same standards to them that are applied to all other people.

[Citizen Rules]

We do have hate language laws in the U.S already....And civil liberties laws too (that protect groups, from direct hate language).

I don't know the exact extent of these laws and perhaps religious organizations are exempt from these laws but they shouldn't be.

With that said the overwhelming amount of churches, synagogues, mosque are peaceful or at least most peaceful...but actively saying a specific group of people based on (sex preference, race, etc) should die, is wrong! And should not be tolerated!...and most likely is a violation of civil liberties laws.

If the Iranian Muslim speaker who's in Florida, right now and scheduled to give a speech, evokes the crowd to murder people, he should be arrested.

[Yoda]

thats why there needs to be a law.so it cant be twisted andchanged to benifit some politician or whatever.
There is no such thing. Try to craft a legal standard for free speech that allows you to curtail speech you don't like, but doesn't allow someone with a different ideology to curtail speech that you do.

since it started with the gay thing i`ll use it as an example. Preaching about it being a sin and speaking about it in a harmful way by spreading hate.
What is the bigger picture? nothing. theres no reason for it.
The "bigger picture" is that they think it's bad for society. Disagree all you want, but you can't pretend they have "no reason." They just have reasons you don't agree with.

And that leads us right back to the same question: who gets to decide which reasons are wrong? You're just giving me random examples of speech you don't like. Even if I completely agreed, that doesn't address the problem I'm talking about.

if theres a cause for it,if theres someone working towards a solution to a problem
Everyone thinks their speech is working towards a solution to a problem. They just disagree with you about which things are problems and/or how to fix them.

if someone is protesting something thats wrong.
Wait, you're against protesting? You don't think it's ever legitimate for speech to be against something? That's extreme, and totally self-contradictory, too.

freedom of speech yes.

if its only to spread hate and negativity
then it has no place here.
You keep saying you're for freedom of speech, only to immediately articulate a view that isn't actually for it. You say "if its only to spread hate and negativity." Well...do you hate anything? Do you have negative opinions about anything? Clearly, you do. Why are those different than the things you want to ban?

Also, it's fine to say something "has no place" in society, but that's an argument for condemning something culturally, with your own arguments and opinions. With your own speech. That's different than saying it should be against the law. The solution to hate speech is more speech in the other direction, not suppression.

its difficult to get my point across in a different language so i apoligize if it just comes out as rambling.
Your English is quite good; I don't think language is the issue. I think we're dealing with a much more fundamental disconnect. I'm talking about the long-term detriments of controlling speech, and you're just telling me why you think certain things are bad to say.

[Topsy]

1.There is no such thing. Try to craft a legal standard for free speech that allows you to curtail speech you don't like, but doesn't allow someone with a different ideology to curtail speech that you do.


The "bigger picture" is that they think it's bad for society. Disagree all you want, but you can't pretend they have "no reason." They just have reasons you don't agree with.

And that leads us right back to the same question: who gets to decide which reasons are wrong? You're just giving me random examples of speech you don't like. Even if I completely agreed, that doesn't address the problem I'm talking about.


Everyone thinks their speech is working towards a solution to a problem. They just disagree with you about which things are problems and/or how to fix them.


2.Wait, you're against protesting? You don't think it's ever legitimate for speech to be against something? That's extreme, and totally self-contradictory, too.


You keep saying you're for freedom of speech, only to immediately articulate a view that isn't actually for it. You say "if its only to spread hate and negativity." Well...do you hate anything? Do you have negative opinions about anything? Clearly, you do. Why are those different than the things you want to ban?

Also, it's fine to say something "has no place" in society, but that's an argument for condemning something culturally, with your own arguments and opinions. With your own speech. That's different than saying it should be against the law. The solution to hate speech is more speech in the other direction, not suppression.


Your English is quite good; I don't think language is the issue. I think we're dealing with a much more fundamental disconnect. I'm talking about the long-term detriments of controlling speech, and you're just telling me why you think certain things are bad to say.


1. I know there isnt,im saying there should be. Theres a difference
between not like something,and object to something that could be harmful.

I have no problem with people having a different opinion than me, but i have a problem with something being harmful to public. hate speeches are harmful-both to the people its being directed to and the ones who subtly agree.

I dont have any negative feelings towards people or a certain group of people that could be harmful,no. do i not like certain things in the world? sure. the issue is to seperate causes that will benifit the public and bring us forward-from causes that have no substains and just based on hate and discrimination.

should someone be on the tv to debate wether or not gays should be allowed to marry in the church?
sure

should someone be on the just to say they hate gays and they should burn?
no

2. No, i was saying that protesting an issue is fine :)

[Yoda]

1. I know there isnt,im saying there should be.
I'm not saying it doesn't exist: I'm saying it literally can't. It's impossible. If you grant the government the legal authority to ban one kind of speech, they can use it to ban another.

I have no problem with people having a different opinion than me, but i have a problem with something being harmful to public.
And if that "different opinion" is about what is harmful to the public...what then?

I dont have any negative feelings towards people or a certain group of people that could be harmful,no. do i not like certain things in the world? sure. the issue is to seperate causes that will benifit the public and bring us forward-from causes that have no substains and just based on hate and discrimination.
Again, people disagree about what's good for society. You mention these things as if they're some sort of neutral starting point that everyone agrees on, but they're not: they're at the core of the disagreement. It's meaningless to say "oh, we should ban things that have no substance," because then the question just becomes: who decides what has substance?

should someone be on the just to say they hate gays and they should burn?
no
Should you be allowed to say you hate people who hate gays?

[Topsy]

well this is just going around in circles cos all i can do is redirect you to my previous comments,so i guess we`ll have to agree to disagree cos im not changing my mind and obviously neither are you ;)

I did see his ex wife/girlfriend on news today,saying he had been abusing her,but i didnt catch all of it.
did she mention wether or not she had filed a report against him?
that would could be interesting considering his job..

[Yoda]

well this is just going around in circles cos all i can do is redirect you to my previous comments,so i guess we`ll have to agree to disagree cos im not changing my mind and obviously neither are you
But your previous comments don't address the issue, either, and continually repeating or referring back to them when I point this out is why this is going in circles.

You make it sound like we've hashed out our differences and reach some kind of core philosophical impasse. We haven't; I've raised some straightforward (and obvious, frankly) objections...and that's it. It hasn't gotten past that point. I ask how you resolve differences of opinion in "what's good for society," and you just give me examples of speech you don't like. I ask how you stop censorship from being abused in the future, and you...give me more examples of speech you don't like.

[Topsy]

how is agreeing to disagree hashing out our differences i clearly stated we didnt agree?

im simply saying im laying the topic dead as ive said what i feel about it and given you examples to what i think would pass and what wouldnt-if you didnt understand them then fair enough.again theres a difference between hate speech and having a difference of opinon or even not liking something as you`ve tried to turn into above.
ive already answered it? there should be law against it. how to you keep it from being abused?- well,how do you keep any laws from being abused?you have people in charge of making sure they`re held up.

[TONGO]

BREAKING: Sources: Arrest expected soon of alleged accomplice in Orlando mass shooting

http://www.wftv.com/news/local/breaking-sources-arrest-to-be-made-soon-of-alleged-accomplice-in-pulse-mass-shooting/340126409

[Citizen Rules]

BREAKING: Sources: Arrest expected soon of alleged accomplice in Orlando mass shooting

http://www.wftv.com/news/local/breaking-sources-arrest-to-be-made-soon-of-alleged-accomplice-in-pulse-mass-shooting/340126409
Thanks for posting that Tongo. And that makes the whole sad incident all the more scarier. One person shooting can be perceived as a nutcase, but when two people are involved it starts to look more like a organized attack. I guess we will have to wait and see what information the FBI releases in the coming days.

[Topsy]

horrible :(

i agree CR.
where there not security at this club? or where they shot?

also,im wondering in regards to whos allowed to buy guns since it says he had passed a background test-
if he had been violent towards his wife would that keep him from getting a gun?
*if it had been reported to the police of course

[Yoda]

im simply saying im laying the topic dead as ive said what i feel about it and given you examples to what i think would pass and what wouldnt-if you didnt understand them then fair enough.
I understand them fine, they just don't have anything to do with what I asked. At this point I'm pretty convinced you don't understand my objections, though.

again theres a difference between hate speech and having a difference of opinon or even not liking something as you`ve tried to turn into above.
And what is that difference? At what point does a difference of opinion become "hate speech"?

how to you keep it from being abused?- well,how do you keep any laws from being abused?you have people in charge of making sure they`re held up.
First: you make it harder to abuse laws by having rights that can't be negotiated on a law-by-law or election-by-election basis. And second: sure, all laws can potentially be abused, and that's precisely the point. That's why you don't make laws that give people an easy way to abridge basic freedoms based on their subjective opinions.

[Citizen Rules]

...where there not security at this club? or where they shot? In most big clubs they have big bouncers to get rid of unruly people, but I don't think it's common for bouncers to have a gun. I do know Florida state, allows people to open carry loaded guns (like in a holster on a belt). I seen that first hand when I was there last time.

also,im wondering in regards to whos allowed to buy guns since it says he had passed a background test-
if he had been violent towards his wife would that keep him from getting a gun?
*if it had been reported to the police of courseGood question, I don't know?...I would guess, if he had been convicted of physical abuse of his wife that would then bar him from purchasing a gun.

[Topsy]

fine.
and the difference between a difference of opinion and hate speech is pretty obvious,ive also already answered that.

[Topsy]

In most big clubs they have big bouncers to get rid of unruly people, but I don't think it's common for bouncers to have a gun. I do know Florida state, allows people to open carry loaded guns (like in a holster on a belt). I seen that first hand when I was there last time.

Good question, I don't know?...I would guess, if he had been convicted of physical abuse of his wife that would then bar him from purchasing a gun.




ah okey,i kind of assumed bouncers in places as big as florida with a pretty lively nightlife had some kind of protection-though maybe not guns.
i was also wondering since they would have had to get passed them somehow- if they shot them then police would have been called right away most likely. But the shooter spent 30minutes down in the bathroom alone.

Yeah i would hope that that would be enough to keep them from getting guns.

[Yoda]

and the difference between a difference of opinion and hate speech is pretty obvious,ive also already answered that.
You answered in a way that just led to a rewording of the question. You said the difference was that one of them was "harmful to the public." So I naturally asked: "And if that 'different opinion' is about what is harmful to the public...what then?" And that's when you said we were going in circles.

[seanc]

I have been going to churches for 35 years. I have heard sermons from more denominations than a lot of people can even name. Never once have I heard anyone say that homosexuals should be killed or isolated from the rest of us. In fact, I have never once heard anyone say we should hate homosexuals. Another American Christian boogieman that doesn't exist.

[Topsy]

You answered in a way that just led to a rewording of the question. You said the difference was that one of them was "harmful to the public." So I naturally asked: "And if that 'different opinion' is about what is harmful to the public...what then?" And that's when you said we were going in circles.

a discussion about whats harmful to society would be okey,as would a discussion of different opinion.

-someone going tv to discuss the beliefs of,say,islam. what they believe in,how it works,what it means to
us,what could happen,what we should be prepared for
-fine

-someone going on tv to say how much they hate islam,they should all die
-not fine

when the mere intention is to spread hate with no bigger picture,no reason-then its unesseccarry and useless.

[matt72582]

I don't think there's a thing we can do... I think more bad would be done than good - loss of liberty, paranoia, etc... I'm not a fan of guns, but I don't think this would dramatically change things considering there are more guns than people. I have a feeling there's going to be a lot of hate to spread around, even if it's subtle, the lack of trust.. Hate crimes against Muslims have gone up 300% since 9/11 and I see a lot of people going overboard calling the police.

Maybe leaving the Middle East would help. If we're talking about religion, murder is justified when a foreign occupation comes to their land. I wouldn't want to live in a police-state to prevent a few murders, I rather live without more laws and just defend myself... People who do this are doing it for attention, so of course they'll say they are with a certain group, and that group will confirm it only to make it appear like they are so strong, and the governments will affirm to justify force. I think the terrorists already won after 9/11 with the Patriot Act and the constant suspicion of fellow citizens.

I'm not a Muslim, I'm not an Arab, but having a beard, resembling one, I've endured a LOT of discrimination, and I think that's another why I've traveled overseas, to get away from it as much as I could, as I don't feel welcomed in the country I was born in, but have experienced a couple of verbal attacks.The mentality is different for world travelers who don't always see the world by lines on a map. I go on yahoo message boards to read unfiltered opinions, and it doesn't give me faith for humanity. I don't believe in religion, but I also don't believe in cherry-picking.

[Topsy]

thats horrible Matt :(

[Yoda]

a discussion about whats harmful to society would be okey,as would a discussion of different opinion.

-someone going tv to discuss the beliefs of,say,islam. what they believe in,how it works,what it means to
us,what could happen,what we should be prepared for
-fine
Again, simply describing the standard you would use has nothing to do with it. I'm not questioning your ability to invent rules. The question is whether or not those rules make sense and can be consistently applied.

-someone going on tv to say how much they hate islam,they should all die
-not fine
First: who actually says this? Even people who think Islam is a violent, dangerous religion don't advocate wholesale genocide.

Second: which of those should be censored? Saying they hate Islam, or saying they should all die? Because those are pretty different, to the point where listing them together is pretty odd.

when the mere intention is to spread hate with no bigger picture,no reason-then its unesseccarry and useless.
Yeah, you said the "no bigger picture" thing earlier, and I responded to it then, too:

The "bigger picture" is that they think it's bad for society. Disagree all you want, but you can't pretend they have "no reason." They just have reasons you don't agree with.

And that leads us right back to the same question: who gets to decide which reasons are wrong?
You keep trying to explain this standard by saying it should be based in what's "good for society," but people don't agree about what's good for society! So obviously this doesn't answer anything.

[Topsy]

actually people here do,which is why we`re pretty peaceful
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3pyc6WkBh1rsqr3oo1_400.gif

[TheUsualSuspect]

One of the saddest things to read. It just makes me disgusted with the mindset of some people in this world.

Seeing the lineup of people donating blood made me emotional, is there enough good in this world to out balance the evil? Maybe, but the evil that is done is so damaging that it seems not.

[Yoda]

actually people here do,which is why we`re pretty peaceful
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m3pyc6WkBh1rsqr3oo1_400.gif
Yes, I'm sure it's much easier to build the impression of consensus if you make certain disagreements illegal. But somehow I doubt Norway is actually free of political or cultural discord.

[Sexy Celebrity]

THE DRAG QUEENS
of PULSE

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25885&stc=1&d=1465867514
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25886&stc=1&d=1465867517
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25887&stc=1&d=1465867530
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25888&stc=1&d=1465867533
http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25889&stc=1&d=1465867536

Would you attack them?
Or would you want them to attack YOU?

[Nostromo87]

I gave an example of Donald Trump providing bold ideas to address the issue of violent Muslim ideology that is costing American lives in our country, in light of the largest mass shooting in US history.

You say "address the issue," but the issue was the shooting (both in the thread and in the post you were replying to), and it wouldn't have stopped that.

You can't just throw all this into a box called "Problems With Islamic Radicalism" and act like any part of the problem is an example of why we need to do some other, totally unrelated thing about it. This shooting doesn't in any way prove the wisdom of Trump's proposed ban: it's unrelated at best, and an argument against it at worst, because it seems like a pretty clear example of why it would be ineffective.

I'll agree that the proposed temporary ban of Muslims entering the country would have been unlikely to directly stop this specific attack. Although I do not see the proposed temporary ban as unrelated either, and that's why I included this part in my previous post

This killer is the child of immigrants from Afghanistan. Link (http://heavy.com/news/2016/06/omar-mateen-who-is-family-father-wife-parents-bio-orlando-mass-shooting/). His father expresses gratitude toward the Afghan Taliban and denounces the Pakistani government. People like this are a threat to American lives. What's important is taking measures to make it less likely that mass murder will happen like this again.

Trump is saying the killer's father should not have made it into the country. That America needs to have tougher borders to keep out people who hate our country. Tougher borders may save future American lives, that's why it's related. Regardless, making it a topic of discussion is better than doing nothing at all.

[Captain Steel]

I would take Trump's idea a step further (actually, I advocated this very idea immediately after 9/11/2001): a ban on ALL immigration until the immigration system, national security, port security, visa system, etc., etc. is completely overhauled and the borders are secured (none of which was done despite 9/11 - the fact that no action was taken after such an attack is absolute insanity.)

Of course there would have to be some exceptions (such as for international delegates & such) and the ban could not just happen when the second hand struck a certain point on the clock - but warning could be given, measures could be taken to introduce new restrictions into the system, and the ban could be gradually implemented so that the system could be examined and fixed.

The concept is really no different than closing a highly traveled road (setting up blocks, first in one lane, then the other; timing full closures; and creating detours if necessary) so that the pot holes in the road or a bridge can be repaired.

[Captain Steel]

A couple points:

If a co-worker of this shooter had gone to their employer and said they had fears that this Muslim man was becoming "radicalized" or dangerous, that co-worker most likely would have been labeled a "racist" or an "Islamophobe" and summarily fired.

What Political Correctness has effectively done is say that if you are vigilant toward Islamic Terrorism or if you even acknowledge its existence in accurate terms (something the PC leaders are unwilling to do), then you have an acute mental illness they've designated as "Islamophobia" - it's a paranoid mental disorder - it has the word "phobia" right in it - which means you are suffering from a completely irrational fear of something that is in no way dangerous and poses no threat.

"If you see something say something" they tell us... as long as it has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims, otherwise you are a "racist" (even though Islam is not a race), you are a "xenophobe" (despite the fact that Islamic Terrorists can come from within as well as without) and you are an "Islamophobe."

[Sexy Celebrity]

If you don't have something cutesy or nice to say about someone, something politically correct, you're evil.

[Captain Steel]

If you don't have something cutesy or nice to say about someone, something politically correct, you're evil.

...and bigoted, biased, prejudiced, hate-filled, racist, ignorant, paranoid, phobic, and of course... mentally ill.

[Sexy Celebrity]

...and bigoted, biased, prejudiced, hate-filled, racist, ignorant, paranoid, phobic, and of course... mentally ill.

"Mentally ill" is too nice. People excuse mentally ill folks. They can't help it.

[Citizen Rules]

If you don't have something cutesy or nice to say about someone, something politically correct, you're evil.
We are the world! We are the children!....something, something about a brighter day,...something about Leeza Gibbons.

http://proteviblog.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341ef41d53ef015436d2e942970c-pi

[Captain Steel]

"Mentally ill" is too nice. People excuse mentally ill folks. They can't help it.

"Islamophobia" (the idea that acknowledging the truth about the threat of fundamentalist Islam is some sort of mental disorder) is a "meme" that has been created by PC to deflect from the truth about Islam.


Another couple points: no mosques are on record of having ever turned in an individual who seemed questionable or was becoming radicalized, and no mosque has ever officially tipped off law enforcement to any potential terrorist acts.

Yet, most of the Islamic Terrorists who've attacked within the American homeland have been found to have been or become fervent mosque attenders. And those mosques have subsequently been found to be teaching and preaching Islam (what else would they be teaching?).

And the fact is - in Islamic theology, there really is no "moderate" Islam, there's just the standard tenets of Islam as contained in the Quran, the Hadiths and the historic example of the ideology's founder and his successors.

Anyone teaching from the Quran, from the Hadiths or from the example of the Prophet, are teaching the Islamic fundamentals. And the fundamental basis of Islam is convert (by force, intimidation or coercion) subjugate (conquer & enslave) or kill anyone who won't submit or wishes to leave the "faith" until all infidels are eliminated and a worldwide caliphate is established.

Now consider this - a State Dept. investigation of the Orlando mosque that Omar Mateen attended was scrubbed by Hillary Clinton because she felt an investigation of said mosque would be insensitive toward Muslims!
(Don't believe it? Look it up!)

[Citizen Rules]

But what do you suggest we do, Captain? We can't ban Islam in America, not without losing our freedoms in the process. And there's millions of peaceful Muslims who don't do bad things and don't deserve to be labeled as the enemy. The very act of labeling Muslims and Islam as the enemy can create a much greater problem, than we already have.

We even have a Muslim member here and he's a nice guy too. What is the USA to do it about it? (Just pretend I'm MrsK for the evening);)

[Sexy Celebrity]

If anything out there is teaching people to kill other people.... training them to kill.... encouraging them to kill...... threatening this country..... then yeah. We need to stop that. If it was some sick cult group, we'd go in and stop that.

[Captain Steel]

But what do you suggest we do, Captain? We can't ban Islam in America, not without losing our freedoms in the process. And there's millions of peaceful Muslims who don't do bad things and don't deserve to be labeled as the enemy. The very act of labeling Muslims and Islam as the enemy can create a much greater problem, than we already have.

We even have a Muslim member here and he's a nice guy too. What is the USA to do it about it? (Just pretend I'm MrsK for the evening);)

As always, I don't have a be-all-end-all, sure fire, overall solution to a 1400 year old problem that has reached global proportions.

But I know this - the first step is to stop the PC-BS.

(Like not investigating a mosque suspected of influencing and producing terrorists - and which we now know influenced & produced the single largest mass-shooter terrorist in U.S. history - because conducting such investigations might be viewed as insensitive to some Muslims).

If we don't stop the denial, the obfuscation of facts, the PC double standards, the capitulation, the appeasement, and the rampant apologism, then we will never proceed in any actionable direction because these things are stopping blocks to addressing the problem.
If we can't halt these self-delusional behaviors, we might as well not discuss any proposed solutions and just declare defeat and submit to the "lions of Islam."

[Citizen Rules]

I don't know if you read my earlier post but I said that some mosque were creating radicalized Islam members by the hate language they use. We have all sorts of Civil Liberty laws regulating hate language that's directed at protecting: racial, ethical, sex preference groups. And if that law doesn't cover all Americans of all types, then it should! And those laws need to be implied, to all organizations, including Mosque that promote, preach or teach death and destruction against other Americans.

I wrote a couple post about that earlier today, here's a link to the 1st one.
http://www.movieforums.com/community/showthread.php?anchor=1&p=1531419#post1531419

[Captain Steel]

http://www.wnd.com/2016/06/orlando-mosque-tied-to-case-hillarys-state-dept-scrubbed/

[Sexy Celebrity]

Even though earlier I said people should be free to speak about anything they personally hate... I will say I hate that Westboro Baptist Church. But I mostly can't stand them because they're always planning to picket funerals. There should be a law against picketing funerals, if there already isn't.

[Omnizoa]

I'm inclined to lean with Steel here.

[Omnizoa]

Although I have to second guess the "ban immigration" thing. It wasn't insecure borders that produced either this terrorist or those on 9/11, they were domestic.

[honeykid]

This is how you defeat this ideology.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jun/13/orlando-attack-thousands-attend-soho-vigil-video
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36525653
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-nightclub-shooting-blood-donations-20160612-story.html

[TONGO]

Orlando gunman had used gay dating app, visited nightclub, witnesses say

ORLANDO, Fla. — The gunman who attacked a Florida gay nightclub had attended the club before the attack and had used a gay dating and chat app, witnesses said.

Kevin West, a regular at Pulse nightclub, said Omar Mateen messaged him on and off for a year before the shooting using the gay chat and dating app Jack'd.

But they never met — until early Sunday morning.

West was dropping off a friend at the club when he noticed Mateen — whom he knew by sight but not by name — crossing the street wearing a dark cap and carrying a black cellphone about 1 a.m., an hour before the shooting.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/orlando-gunman-had-used-gay-dating-app-visited-nightclub-witnesses-say/ar-AAh0eVN

[Sexy Celebrity]

This is how you defeat this ideology.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/video/2016/jun/13/orlando-attack-thousands-attend-soho-vigil-video
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36525653
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-orlando-nightclub-shooting-blood-donations-20160612-story.html

Drain your blood, light a candle and be quiet. I see.

[Camo]

Even though earlier I said people should be free to speak about anything they personally hate... I will say I hate that Westboro Baptist Church. But I mostly can't stand them because they're always planning to picket funerals. There should be a law against picketing funerals, if there already isn't.

Pretty sure there are laws that they have to stay a certain distance away from the actual funerals but obviously that isn't enough. Horrible people. They aren't allowed to enter the UK and i imagine a few other countries. Actually they shouldn't be allowed to leave Kansas, since they only leave their creepy compound to picket funerals in Florida or whatever,

[Sexy Celebrity]

ORLANDO, Fla. — The gunman who attacked a Florida gay nightclub had attended the club before the attack and had used a gay dating and chat app, witnesses said.

Kevin West, a regular at Pulse nightclub, said Omar Mateen messaged him on and off for a year before the shooting using the gay chat and dating app Jack'd.

...... I do believe in the violent, psychotic closet case who would turn to something like ISIS (or Nazis or something) as a source of "power", a symbol of brute masculinity to cloak their sensitivity and gayness, which they're ashamed of. Honeykid noted, as did I, of things like his NYPD t-shirt. Which doesn't mean everyone who wears those things is psycho, but psychos do tend to like symbols of power and authority. Many murderers dream of being a cop. I think that's why we hear of so many cases of cops that abuse their power and beat or rape the crap out of people. Some psychos slip by and get accepted.

[donniedarko]

Even though earlier I said people should be free to speak about anything they personally hate... I will say I hate that Westboro Baptist Church. But I mostly can't stand them because they're always planning to picket funerals. There should be a law against picketing funerals, if there already isn't.

If someone wishes to picket the funeral of the Orlando shooter, should that also be illegal?

[Sexy Celebrity]

If someone wishes to picket the funeral of the Orlando shooter, should that also be illegal?

If it was my law, ALL funeral pickets would be illegal. Wakes, funerals... if people are mourning somebody dead, let them mourn and stay away. That's my solution to Westboro Baptist Church thinking they can go picket funerals. I don't care if the deceased did a bad thing -- no funeral picketing. Someone's mourning. You wanna vent your anger, pick up a telephone and call a friend.

[Yoda]

I'll agree that the proposed temporary ban of Muslims entering the country would have been unlikely to directly stop this specific attack. Although I do not see the proposed temporary ban as unrelated either, and that's why I included this part in my previous post
Yeah, it's not unrelated. It's just not a response to the thing TONGO said, either.

Trump is saying the killer's father should not have made it into the country.
Did he actually say this, or is this how you've interpreted his general comments? I ask because this is a distinction I've run into a lot when talking to Trump supporters, where they sort of "clean up" vague comments and make them more reasonable by saying he meant something other than was actually said. The comments I saw were a lot more general, though I didn't see a transcript.

That America needs to have tougher borders to keep out people who hate our country. Tougher borders may save future American lives, that's why it's related. Regardless, making it a topic of discussion is better than doing nothing at all.
There are, of course, already such people here, and a blanket ban on everyone from their religion is probably only going to make them easier to radicalize.

I think that last sentence is key, though: "better than doing nothing at all." There's a thing that happens in times of crisis, where the desire to do something becomes more important than figuring out what the something should be. Usually, I see it more on the left in regards to poverty, guns, or other things like that. Megan McArdle put it really well:

1. Something must be done.
2. This is something.
3. Therefore, this must be done.

Needless to say, I think this is entirely the wrong posture. I think being desperate to Do Something leads to bad decisions with bad long-term effects.

[honeykid]

Did he actually say this, or is this how you've interpreted his general comments? I ask because this is a distinction I've run into a lot when talking to Trump supporters, where they sort of "clean up" vague comments and make them more reasonable by saying he meant something other than was actually said. The comments I saw were a lot more general, though I didn't see a transcript.
But even this wouldn't have helped, would it? The father isn't a threat to the US. So unless Trump has a time machine which would allow him to check everyone who emigrates to the US and then goes forward through the generations of their family until they leave to make sure none of them do something against the US, then the father wouldn't have been stopped coming to the States.

Of course, Trump is one of the few people in politics who would say he has a time machine. Sadly, it probably wouldn't matter to his support either. :(

[Yoda]

But even this wouldn't have helped, would it? The father isn't a threat to the US. So unless Trump has a time machine which would allow him to check everyone who emigrates to the US and then goes forward through the generations of their family until they leave to make sure none of them do something against the US, then the father wouldn't have been stopped coming to the States.
Well, if they had a blanket ban on everyone from that part of the world (which is the latest incarnation of this proposal, apparently), he would've been. But your point does a good job of illustrating the chief objection: the policy is basically admitting you're going to deny entry to lots of perfectly innocent people in an effort to stop the bad ones. Kind of like putting all the suspects for a murder in jail just to be "safe."

I agree that the idea would be objectionable whether he said it or not. But if he didn't even say it, then we have two problems: the idea itself and people projecting nuance and thoughtfulness onto it that isn't really there.

[Omnizoa]

But even this wouldn't have helped, would it? The father isn't a threat to the US. So unless Trump has a time machine which would allow him to check everyone who emigrates to the US and then goes forward through the generations of their family until they leave to make sure none of them do something against the US, then the father wouldn't have been stopped coming to the States.
That was my point earlier. Tighter borders will not stop what's already behind them.

[Nostromo87]

The point is to improve border security screening to prevent future American deaths from people who believe in Sharia law, from stoning people and/or killing gays and other targeted groups. Come on, you guys are smarter than this.

[Camo]

The point is to improve border security screening to prevent future American deaths

people who believe in Sharia law,

These aren't the same thing, man what is happening here. Have i missed some big sharia law movement in the US?

The US should improve its border security but i don't have a clue what one of these has to do with the other, especially since most of the Islamic nutjobs in the US are US born not immigrants, same over here.

[donniedarko]

The point is to improve border security screening to prevent future American deaths from people who believe in Sharia law, from stoning people and/or killing gays and other targeted groups. Come on, you guys are smarter than this.

Exactly. It's not a permanent ban. It's a ban until screening can be improved

[Citizen Rules]

Exactly. It's not a permanent ban. It's a ban until screening can be improvedCorrect me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump first say he would 'ban all Muslims', then he changed it to a 'temporary ban on all Muslims'.

How can this guy be running for President of the USA? You can't ban people based on their skin color or religion! Is that who you guys want for President? He's an idiot and an bigot.

You know if Trump was smart (and still wanted to tighten immigration) he would have said, to stop all immigration of all people into the USA until we can strengthen our security.

Captain Steel suggested that a few post back....That idea would not be discriminatory. It might not be popular, but at least it's much fairer than what Trump suggested.

[Camo]

It's a ban until screening can be improved

So what just halt your full economy, because i can guarantee you right now some countries won't take kindly to that. You may think you are ok without them right now but as they build up the US economy drops which is the main reason you still deal with your enemies.

There is some weird we don't need any other country thing going on here which is fine for idiots on movie forums, but i hope your leaders have more sense.

[DAnconiaLead]

This is how you defeat this ideology.




During the Morro Rebellion, in which Muslim Filipinos attempted stage a genocidal massacre of all non-Muslim Filipinos, General John J. "Blackjack" Pershing showed exactly how to defeat Islamic Terrorists.


Since non-uniformed terrorists are not protected by the Geneva Convention (which weren't finalized in 1913 anyway), Pershing ordered his men to tie fifty Islamic Terrorists to posts, throw pig-parts onto them, force pig-parts into their mouths, and then shoot 49 of the terrorists, allowing the 50th to report what had occurred to his superiors and fellow Islamic Terrorists.


Once this strategy was implemented the 'Morro Rebellion'/massacre of the non-Muslim population of the Philippines STOPPED...


Today, thanks to social-media and news-media videos, we wouldn't even need to allow the 50th to live....just film it and release it on the internet....

[Camo]

Since non-uniformed terrorists are not protected by the Geneva Convention (which weren't finalized in 1913 anyway), Pershing ordered his men to tie fifty Islamic Terrorists to posts, throw pig-parts onto them, force pig-parts into their mouths, and then shoot 49 of the terrorists, allowing the 50th to report what had occurred to his superiors and fellow Islamic Terrorists.


Sounds like it did a lot of good.

Suppose Ayn Rand was prematurely commenting on its effectiveness in you signature.

Well i didn't ask for permission to say that Ayn Rand was a horriblle, narrow minded old woman who more than likely didn't believe in half of the crap that she said.

[Captain Steel]

Well, if they had a blanket ban on everyone from that part of the world (which is the latest incarnation of this proposal, apparently), he would've been. But your point does a good job of illustrating the chief objection: the policy is basically admitting you're going to deny entry to lots of perfectly innocent people in an effort to stop the bad ones. Kind of like putting all the suspects for a murder in jail just to be "safe."

I agree that the idea would be objectionable whether he said it or not. But if he didn't even say it, then we have two problems: the idea itself and people projecting nuance and thoughtfulness onto it that isn't really there.

Interestingly, when Rand Paul was running (and he was thought of as the most Liberal of Republicans) he suggested an immigration & travel ban that singled out parts of the world (countries that support, export, sponsor or have high incidences of Islamic Terrorism, etc.)

This is somewhat similar to the alteration Trump has made to his initial "ban all Muslims" remarks.

[DAnconiaLead]

Sounds like it did a lot of good.


Until very recently, the Philippines have been free of the threat of Islamic-Terrorism since would-be terrorists knew that another Pershing could always be sent to 'modify' their behavior...

[Camo]

Interestingly, when Rand Paul was running (and he was thought of as the most Liberal of Republicans

Was he? I know that he was the one most associated with libertarians but i'd never think of him as the most liberal. Everthing i heard from him made me think of him as one of the farthest to the right.

I'm sure i'm wrong, i just found that pretty surprising.

[Citizen Rules]

I personally viewed Rand Paul as the most Libertarian like, of the Republicans. I liked him too, smart man with ethics (at least it seemed that way from my limited info). He could have beat Hillary too I bet.

[Captain Steel]

Was he? I know that he was the one most associated with libertarians but i'd never think of him as the most liberal. Everthing i heard from him made me think of him as one of the farthest to the right.

I'm sure i'm wrong, i just found that pretty surprising.

Maybe I'm wrong. I just remember that he was thought of as something of an outsider to the Republican party (similar to the way his father didn't fit the Repub mold either).
So, I"m not sure how you'd classify him. I really don't know much about him except that he was a Dentist and expressed some policies on banning immigration & travel from certain countries.

[Frightened Inmate No. 2]

reading this thread is like staring into an abyss

[Sexy Celebrity]

reading this thread is like staring into an abyss

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=25907&stc=1&d=1465964038

Since you think this is your mirror, you might as well make sure your hair's okay.

[donniedarko]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Trump first say he would 'ban all Muslims', then he changed it to a 'temporary ban on all Muslims'.

How can this guy be running for President of the USA? You can't ban people based on their skin color or religion! Is that who you guys want for President? He's an idiot and an bigot.

I brought this up in the Trump thread, as well but I'm curious on other opinions. Are you aware that Canada had a ban on Chineese immigrations from most the period of the 1920's-70s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Immigration_Act,_1923). Would you consider this a racist policy?


You know if Trump was smart (and still wanted to tighten immigration) he would have said, to stop all immigration of all people into the USA until we can strengthen our security.

Captain Steel suggested that a few post back....That idea would not be discriminatory. It might not be popular, but at least it's much fairer than what Trump suggested.

I feel like this makes being non-discriminatory the #1 objective of US immigration, while it should be safety.

So what just halt your full economy, because i can guarantee you right now some countries won't take kindly to that. You may think you are ok without them right now but as they build up the US economy drops which is the main reason you still deal with your enemies.

There is some weird we don't need any other country thing going on here which is fine for idiots on movie forums, but i hope your leaders have more sense.

The US should be a lot more outraged with what some of these countries have done to support terrorism than they should be outraged on a temporary muslim ban.

[donniedarko]

Under Hillary's own idea of no one under FBI investigation being able to buy a gun, I guess she should lose that right as well

[Sexy Celebrity]

WOW. The horror in Florida CONTINUES!

A two year old boy was grabbed by an ALLIGATOR at a Disney hotel. The boy is believed to be dead. Disney World has closed its beaches.

The alligator is believed to be connected to ISIS.

[Citizen Rules]

I brought this up in the Trump thread, as well but I'm curious on other opinions. Are you aware that Canada had a ban on Chineese immigrations from most the period of the 1920's-70s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Immigration_Act,_1923). Would you consider this a racist policy? That's interesting so thanks for mentioning that. I don't know what bearing Canada's past immigration laws have on this discussion? Except I guess your point is banning all Muslims from entering the US is not racist. Well that's technically true, it would be more accurately called religious discrimination. It's still wrong to do.

I feel like this makes being non-discriminatory the #1 objective of US immigration, while it should be safety.
But that's why Trump is such an idiot by suggesting a temporary ban on immigration by all Muslims. It's wrong to do and it can not be enforced. I mean how can you tell who's a Muslim and who's not? There's no blood test for what your religious beliefs are.

The US should be a lot more outraged with what some of these countries have done to support terrorism than they should be outraged on a temporary muslim ban.I'm outraged about ISIS and terrorist.

[Captain Steel]

reading this thread is like staring into an abyss

How so?
I'm interested in why you think that.

I see a lot of differing views here. And a lot of different ideas on the sources of certain problems as well as proposed ideas on how to address them, so I'm not sure how it's an "abyss." I could relate to that analogy if, say, every post said the same exact thing, but they don't.

[Citizen Rules]

We talked about the need to monitor and even close down Mosque that promoted hate language and terrorism in the name of Islam.

So...what do we do about something like this?
Link...

Sacramento pastor on Orlando shootings: 'The tragedy is that more of them didn't die' (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-sacramento-pastor-roger-jimenez-orlando-shootings-20160614-story.html)

From the news story:

Following the deadliest shooting in U.S. history, a Baptist preacher stood at his pulpit Sunday night in Northern California and delivered an impassioned sermon praising the brutal massacre at a gay nightclub in Florida.
Pastor Roger Jimenez from Verity Baptist Church in Sacramento told his congregation that Christians "shouldn't be mourning the death of 50 sodomites."
"People say, like: Well, aren't you sad that 50 sodomites died?" Jimenez said, referencing the initial death toll in Orlando, which authorities later clarified included 49 victims plus the gunman. "Here's the problem with that. It's like the equivalent of asking me - what if you asked me: Hey, are you sad that 50 pedophiles were killed today?'
"Um, no, I think that's great. I think that helps society. You know, I think Orlando, Fla., is a little safer tonight."
He added: "The tragedy is that more of them didn't die. The tragedy is - I'm kind of upset that he didn't finish the job!"
Comments? Thoughts?

[Captain Steel]

We talked about the need to monitor and even close down Mosque that promoted hate language and terrorism in the name of Islam.

So...what do we do about something like this?
Link...

Sacramento pastor on Orlando shootings: 'The tragedy is that more of them didn't die' (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-sacramento-pastor-roger-jimenez-orlando-shootings-20160614-story.html)

From the news story:
Comments? Thoughts?





That pastor is really vile. How can he compare criminal pedophiles (who are predators that prey on children) to consenting adults? That's like saying a man who has consensual sex with his girlfriend is the same as a rapist who goes out and forces a sexual assault on a woman while holding a knife to her neck!

This pastor is almost unbelievable - the nature or backgrounds of the victims has nothing to do with the issue - the issue is that a terrorist madman randomly killed 49 people and injured dozens of others while shooting randomly into a crowd! The terrorist could've just as easily killed that pastor's family while they were at Disney World or decided to attack a Latino parade! (I wonder how the pastor would feel if it was his loved ones murdered by an Islamic Terrorist?)


Another interesting issue: Hillary Clinton has condemned the terror attack in Orlando (of course), and yet her campaign has eagerly accepted millions and millions of dollars from countries that embrace Islamic fundamentals and where Sharia Law is practiced (which says that homosexuals need to be killed!)

She has not spoken out against the ideology of Islam that is quite clear in this respect or its 1400 year-old tenets that command homosexuals be executed (along with Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Eastern religions, non-Muslims, Athiests, Agnostics, New Thought - New Age believers, people who leave Islam, people who practice free speech, people who criticize Islam, people who wish to reform Islam, people who draw Muhammad, people in the West, people who embrace science, art or music, female rape victims, little girls who attend school, the physically & mentally disabled, disobedient or adulterous wives, pets, etc., etc.)

Hillary is letting her campaign and interests be funded by nations, people & organizations that hold the exact same beliefs as mass-murderer Omar Mateen held as the driving force of his Islamic faith.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/06/14/hillary-clinton-took-millions-anti-lbgt-countries-gays-jailed-put-death/