BILLY THE KID has been SPOTTED!

[Sexy Celebrity]

A long lost photograph of Billy the Kid was found in a junk store for only $2 dollars.

Now it might be worth $5 million dollars.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22850&stc=1&d=1445115574

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22851&stc=1&d=1445115643
Billy the Kid is on the left.

$2 Photo Found at Junk Store has Billy the Kid in it. (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/10/15/448993361/-2-photo-found-at-junk-store-has-billy-the-kid-in-it-could-be-worth-5-million)

It's not every day you can plop down two bucks and walk away with some "junk" that is worth a fortune. But that's what happened when a collector purchased an old-timey photo from a Fresno, Calif., antiques shop.

It turns out, the infamous outlaw Billy the Kid is in the photo, apparently taking part in a leisurely game of croquet.

The image could be worth up to $5 million.

Kagin's Inc., a numismatics firm, announced it had authenticated the photo earlier this month. The 4-inch-by-5-inch tintype shows Billy the Kid in the summer of 1878. It may have been taken at a wedding, and he is alongside several members of his gang, The Regulators, according to the firm.

In a statement (http://kagins.com/), Kagin's senior numismatist, David McCarthy, said it took more than a year of careful inspection before the firm would confirm the photo's authenticity."When we first saw the photograph, we were understandably skeptical — an original Billy the Kid photo is the Holy Grail of Western Americana. ...

"We had to be certain that we could answer and verify where, when, how and why this photograph was taken. Simple resemblance is not enough in a case like this — a team of experts had to be assembled to address each and every detail in the photo to insure that nothing was out of place.

"After more than a year of methodical study including my own inspection of the site, there is now overwhelming evidence of the image's authenticity."The only other known photo of the outlaw was taken in 1880 in Fort Sumner, N.M. That photo, a 2-inch-by-3-inch tintype, pulled in $2.3 million in 2010, according to Kagin's.

Billy the Kid, whose real name (http://www.britannica.com/biography/Billy-the-Kid-American-outlaw) may have been Henry McCarty (he also used the alias William H. Bonney), has remained part of American frontier folklore for generations. He was a famous thief and gunfighter who was captured and sentenced to death but escaped prison after killing two guards.

Legend has it that he killed 21 men, one for each year of his life.

However, according to the New Mexico Tourism Department (http://www.newmexico.org/true-history/#article75744), the number was actually nine: four that he was solely responsible for, including the two guards, and five he helped dispatch.

Billy the Kid was eventually tracked down and killed by Sheriff Pat Garrett at Fort Sumner in 1881.Previously, I believe there was only ONE picture of Billy the Kid known to exist.

This one:

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22852&stc=1&d=1445115693

Yes, Rodent -- this thread is for you. I'm sure you already heard about it.

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22853&stc=1&d=1445115855

[honeykid]

My mum was talking about this the other day. I saw it on the news bar, but didn't bother with it.

I knew this'd be an SC thread and I was confident he'd dedicate it to Rodent, too. I'm getting Young Guns II commentary flashbacks. :D

[The Rodent]

Judging from clothing and the people in the picture, this was before McCarty became famous.


The person in the picture pointing at him may well be his brother Joe.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Had you heard about this already or just now thanks to this thread?

[The Rodent]

Because of this thread.


I haven't been online all day.

[christine]

Croquet? Croquet??

[The Rodent]

If they're wondering where the picture was taken, they need to start scouring New York, Kansas and Indianapolis as well as New Mexico.


Judging from Billy's age though in the pic, and the person next to him if it is Joseph, then Wichita Kansas is probably a good place to start before going on to New Mexico.

[The Rodent]

Maybe even check out Arizona and Fort Grant as well.

[Sexy Celebrity]

About why he's playing croquet:


Henry McCarty, known in Wild West lore as Billy the Kid, lived a brief and violent life, stealing and killing before his death in a gunfight aged 21. He lived with a gun in his hand – and sometimes, it seems, a croquet mallet.

In a surprising historical twist, the second photo of McCarty ever to be authenticated shows him and his posse, the Regulators, playing the sport in New Mexico (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/newmexico) in 1878.

The faded image was among a pile of photos inside a cardboard box at a junk shop in Fresno, California, unearthed by a collector in 2010. Randy Guijarro paid $2 (£1.30) for the image, which is now estimated to be worth millions of dollars. The only other confirmed photo of Billy the Kid, from 1880, sold for $2.3m (£1.5m) in 2011 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/27/us-auction-billykid-photo-idUSTRE75O1HX20110627).

The photo was authenticated by a San Francisco-based Americana company, Kagin’s (http://kagins.com/), which identified Billy the Kid along with several members of the Regulators, as well as friends and family. It was taken after a wedding in the summer of 1878, just a month after the gang took part in the brutal Lincoln County war.

When the photo was first brought to the company, its experts were “understandably sceptical”, said David McCarthy from Kagin’s. “An original Billy the Kid photo is the holy grail of Western Americana.

“We had to be certain that we could answer and verify where, when, how and why this photograph was taken. Simple resemblance is not enough in a case like this – a team of experts had to be assembled to address each and every detail in the photo to ensure that nothing was out of place.”

The team spent a year investigating the photo, and even found the location where it was taken, in Chaves County, New Mexico. There they unearthed the remains of the building shown. “We found the old lumber underneath,” said Jeff Aiello, director of a National Geographic Channel documentary (http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/galleries/billy-the-kid-new-evidence/at/billy-the-kid-new-evidence1-2100403/) on the find, scheduled to be broadcast this month. “We found those exact rock piers are still there.”

Liz Larsson, from the UK’s Croquet Association (https://www.croquet.org.uk/), said the series of photos from the scene left little doubt what game was being played: “It’s clearly croquet. You can see the hoops, the balls, the mallet, the centre peg. They’re all there. It’s a fascinating picture.”

The first croquet club in England was founded in 1865, the same year the game was immortalised in Lewis Carroll’s Alice in Wonderland, Larsson said.

“Croquet became popular in the 1860s because it was the first sport that women could play on the same terms as men, and men and women could play each other. It had a huge boost in its popularity.” In the UK, however, it was still not a game for the masses: “Not really. You needed a lawn, and a fairly large one.”

Things were, however, slightly different in the US, where companies making croquet gear created a smaller-scale version of the sport, which could be played on rougher turf, using cheaper, lightweight equipment.

During the 19th century, the game in America had a somewhat different image to the genteel, cucumber-sandwich stereotype of Britain, according to a history by the United States Croquet Association (http://www.croquetamerica.com/croquet/history/): “Croquet as a public sport suffered a setback in the 1890s when the Boston clergy spoke out against the drinking, gambling and licentious behaviour associated with it.”

All types of Americans played. In 1867, General George Custer wrote to his wife, Elizabeth (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=uPskHWbrlyQC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=general+custer+croquet&source=bl&ots=pHdOzqQ7WB&sig=tRNpR6DuKxh8n9dxJbZSnbrGM0E&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBWoVChMI6P2Vzta_yAIVy10aCh1AOAUO#v=onepage&q=general%20custer%20croquet&f=false), from his frontier fort in Kansas, asking her to “bring a set of field-croquet” when she next visited.

Thom Ross, a US artist specialising in historic scenes, has previously painted both Native Americans and cowboys playing croquet, saying this is based on extensive historical research (http://juliarobb.com/blog/thom-ross/).Multimillion-dollar photo of Billy the Kid playing croquet was $2 junk shop find (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/13/billy-the-kid-croquet-junk-shop-two-dollars)

[The Rodent]

Chaves County?


I was just checking Google Street View for the hill in the background...

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

Only an outlaw could wear that hat and get away with it.

[The Rodent]

If it was taken in April-May 1878, then the guy pointing at Billy is probably this guy: http://image2.findagrave.com/photos/2004/269/3530_109622466572.jpg


Tom O'Folliard.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Do you think this new picture of Billy the Kid looks anything like Brushy Bill Roberts?

[The Rodent]

Hard to tell with the state of the image.


I've been looking online for a decent image of the wider pic so I can identify the others in the image. They reckon it's the other members of the Iron Clad and Regulators, but if I could get hold of a decent pic, I could probably give names to them all.


I've compared other images of Brushy Bill and McCarty, and I reckon they are the same person.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

This is Billy's great grandson.
http://permanentplastichelmet.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/screen-shot-2013-11-21-at-17-12-37.png

[Sexy Celebrity]

I've gotta say -- I lean towards being skeptical that Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid. I did some research on my own after our Young Guns II commentary and I'm not convinced Brushy Bill was Billy the Kid.

It would be cool if he was, but I have some doubts.

[Sexy Celebrity]

I've been looking online for a decent image of the wider pic so I can identify the others in the image. They reckon it's the other members of the Iron Clad and Regulators, but if I could get hold of a decent pic, I could probably give names to them all.

Yes. Do that.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

He wasn't the only outlaw with an affinity for bad hats, Wild Bill wore them too.
http://www.nndb.com/people/002/000096711/wild-bill-hickock-sized.jpg

[Sexy Celebrity]

Slob, all these disses would have probably made Billy the Kid shoot you dead already.

[The Sci-Fi Slob]

Nah, the bullets would have richoceted off my iron liver.

[Mr Minio]

Spotted: The Wild West

[Sexy Celebrity]

Rodent, if you need a larger picture:

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22863&stc=1&d=1445155288

[Sexy Celebrity]

Actually, Movie Forums shrinks it.

Try this:

http://www.gpb.org/sites/www.gpb.org/files/btkfull_custom-f97e4d8b7948db6139cdb84ff25aa5c0c5ad61a7.jpg

[The Rodent]

I shall have a look at the guy on the right on horseback... I think I know who that may be,,, the rest are a bit blurry, but that's the picture itself rather than the digital image.

[Sexy Celebrity]

Here's a fierce Billy the Kid playing croquet avatar if you want it:

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22864&stc=1&d=1445156047

[Sexy Celebrity]

Or if you want one a bit more close up:

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22865&stc=1&d=1445156540

[The Rodent]

The guy on the far right on horseback I would say is a ringer for Charlie Bowdre. same facial hair features and similar tilt to his head. He's also got the same style of hat as every other picture of Bowdre, and is wearing his hat in the same fashion tilted to one side.
http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q552/The-Rodent/Bowdre_zps3gtygici.png (http://s1163.photobucket.com/user/The-Rodent/media/Bowdre_zps3gtygici.png.html)


The rest could be anyone. Especially the Women and Children. I've looked at images of well known Women from the War, and none match.
However, I would hazard a guess that the Woman to the left of Billy and O'Folliard is Susan McSween. Similar facial features, and the same hairstyle that Susan was known to have.
http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q552/The-Rodent/Susan%20McSween_zpsbaq7qqov.png (http://s1163.photobucket.com/user/The-Rodent/media/Susan%20McSween_zpsbaq7qqov.png.html)
The Battle Of Lincoln took place about a month after this pic was supposedly taken, and there were a number of Women and Children trapped in the McSween house during the big gunfight.
They, and Susan McSween were allowed clear exit from the house when The House and the Soldiers surrounded the McSween house and the gunfight took place. It was after the building was set on fire that Susan, the Women and the Children were given passage out of the house.
This suggests to me, that the rest of the Women and Children in this picture are the same people who were caught in the middle of the Battle Of Lincoln.


The two guys on the left also playing croquet, the image taken was out of focus... they may have moved too quickly for the camera to take a clear image of them... but more than likely they're part of the Regulators.
Out of the two, I'd say it's possible that the one on the left is Doc Scurlock.
http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q552/The-Rodent/Scurlock_zps4gpss838.png (http://s1163.photobucket.com/user/The-Rodent/media/Scurlock_zps4gpss838.png.html)

[Sexy Celebrity]

The guy on the far right on horseback I would say is a ringer for Charlie Bowdre. same facial hair features and similar tilt to his head. He's also got the same style of hat as every other picture of Bowdre, and is wearing his hat in the same fashion tilted to one side.

Charlie, who was played by Casey Siemaszko in the first Young Guns movie.

However, I would hazard a guess that the Woman to the left of Billy and O'Folliard is Susan McSween.Played by Sharon Thomas, whoever that is.

The Battle Of Lincoln took place about a month after this pic was supposedly taken, and there were a number of Women and Children trapped in the McSween house during the big gunfight.Oh, she must have been the wife who lived in that house.

This suggests to me, that the rest of the Women and Children in this picture are the same people who were caught in the middle of the Battle Of Lincoln.Well, that's your favorite part of the movie, isn't it? The ending at the house.

That's not the house behind them, is it?

The two guys on the left also playing croquet, the image taken was out of focus... they may have moved too quickly for the camera to take a clear image of them... but more than likely they're part of the Regulators.

Out of the two, I'd say it's possible that the one on the left is Doc Scurlock.And that was, of course, Kiefer Sutherland.

Very fascinating.

[The Rodent]

No this isn't the McSween house in the picture... that house was in Lincoln town. This image was taken elsewhere.


But yeah in the films, Charlie is Casey, Doc is Keifer, O'Folliard was in YG2 played by Balthazar Getty and Susan McSween was played by Sharon Thomas.

[The Rodent]

I'm confident enough that I would bet money that the guy on the far right on horseback is Charlie Bowdre.

[Sexy Celebrity]

http://www.movieforums.com/community/attachment.php?attachmentid=22866&stc=1&d=1445157706

Who's that figure at the bottom of the picture on the right?

It looks like someone carrying an umbrella.

[The Rodent]

Lol! A Chinese lady probably from Silver City.

[christine]

SC, that was interesting facts about croquet. The game obviously has totally different connotations in the UK !

[The Rodent]

Haaaa!!!


You guys owe me money.


I was right. It is Tom O'Folliard and Charlie Bowdre in that picture. Yet again, I am damned good.


http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/19/man-who-discovered-rare-billy-the-kid-photo-the-hunt-is-a-really-grand-thing

[Sexy Celebrity]

Yet again, I am damned good.

That's what my mom always says.