How do you know the difference between right and wrong?

[90sAce]

How do you know whether or not you feel something is right or wrong objectively, or whether it's just the result of social conditioning?

For example, if your parents were racist, you might feel that interracial dating is wrong because you grew up around racists who felt the same way - but had you not grown up around them, you probably wouldn't have felt it was wrong looking at it with an untainted mind.

[MovieGal]

You mean there is a difference?

[90sAce]

You mean there is a difference?
Yes, objectively I'd say there's a difference.

I don't believe in moral nihilism - I think that morality is programmed into all of our biology, in the same way that animals are never taught right and wrong, but instinctively know the "correct" way to behave.

I believe humans are born with the same instinct because we did evolve from animals, and share their biology and design.

Unfortunately I think social indoctrination causes us to confuse what we've been accustomed to believe, with what is truly right and wrong.

[Citizen Rules]

Hey it's the return of Ace! Where you been?

So is the question: how do I as an individual determine what I think is right or wrong? Or is the question about the broader nature of right/wrong...or is the question more about how an individual perceives and learns social values?

[Mr Minio]

I ask my mummy.

[MovieGal]

I thought everything I did was right... that I can do no wrong.... hmmmmm are you telling me thats a lie?

[90sAce]

Hey it's the return of Ace! Where you been?

So is the question: how do I as an individual determine what I think is right or wrong? Or is the question about the broader nature of right/wrong...or is the question more about how an individual perceives and learns social values?
I've been needing a break from the forum for awhile, glad to see you still around CR.

I'm focusing on the broader nature since I think at the core level, right and wrong is based on universal principles and ties in with our biological design.

[Citizen Rules]

I'm not sure if I can come up with anything salient on the broader nature of good and evil. I can see what society in general views as good or evil in behavior and it slowly changes as time flows. Think of a river, as we travel further down that river-road new values are adopted and old ones abandoned. Of course the change is not universal, like a wave, the changes don't cover all the pebbles on the beach. And some pebbles are out of reach of the surf, so at least to our human memory of civilization, some values seem immutable. But given enough time...right and wrong can shift like magnetic poles. Sorry, I don't really have a direct answer.

[popcornsteve]

Hmm, the argument around animals is not convincing as they just eat and screw, as a general rule. Murder, for example, is not something most animals spend too much time debating. Survival is inherent, it seems, as most animals won't commit suicide unless it's due to a parental need to protect (though there are examples of this not being and the case and examples of those animals that will die for their partners and not just their kids). Humans also eat and screw, just like animals, for the same reasons. The argument as to why all animals feel the need to procreate is just as relevant therefore as how humans perceive the difference between right and wrong, if we are to believe that animals (in which I include humans) have any kind of innate behaviour.

The simple answer to this is 'opinion'. Mine is most likely different to yours and if we believe the argument that right or wrong is innate, in the same way that we believe survival is, we would all think the same way about everything, which we clearly don't (as example, I await your next post on the subject with interest, as it might just argue this point, therefore ironically proving it). Influence is responsible for many things and that may be familial or social. There is no evidence to suggest that racist parents will raise only racist children and, if we took the trouble to check, I'm sure the opposite is just as likely. Individualism should be embraced, as at higher levels (like us), this is what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom. If only all humanity could use this ability for the greater good, then the planet would be a much better place to live on, for us and the (allegedly) stupid, ignorant animals that share it with us.

[jrs]

How do you know whether or not you feel something is right or wrong..

It's called rationalization. One should learn from their mistakes, and when one fails from their misdeeds that person should realize it shouldn't be done again. Obviously a person knows not to commit a immoral sin or a wrong act that would cause them to be in danger, but some people just do not know exactly the difference between what is right and what is wrong. And they need help.

Parents should teach their children in the first place how to behave and the difference between the two. The consequences between each other. If a person decides to do wrong instead of what's right and injure their lives and others in the long run, that is unfortunately their problem.

Right and wrong refers to one's physical and mental behaviors. It's that they know inside their head and then act out. Although it's not right, to actually tell another that they are doing wrong when they are doing something you just simply just don't like. And can be rectified by simply being civil and speaking to them like a normal human being.

[The Rodent]

This is what the Bible says:
Does it make you feel good? Then it's the wrong thing to do.

[jrs]

This is what the Bible says:
Does it make you feel good? Then it's the wrong thing to do.

Showers make me feel good. Maybe I should not take them. lol

[Hit Girl]

It's called rationalization. One should learn from their mistakes, and when one fails from their misdeeds that person should realize it shouldn't be done again. Obviously a person knows not to commit a immoral sin or a wrong act that would cause them to be in danger, but some people just do not know exactly the difference between what is right and what is wrong. And they need help.


And some people know the difference between right and wrong and choose to do the wrong thing anyway. People can rationalise anything in their own mind.

[jrs]

And some people know the difference between right and wrong and choose to do the wrong thing anyway. People can rationalise anything in their own mind.

They can, but choosing to do the wrong thing anyway just isn't rational. :)

[popcornsteve]

And some people know the difference between right and wrong and choose to do the wrong thing anyway. People can rationalise anything in their own mind.

I think the important word in this sentence is 'know'. How they do know is kinda the point of the original question.

[Captain Steel]

This is what the Bible says:
Does it make you feel good? Then it's the wrong thing to do.

In a sense, most things that feel good usually DO have some negative consequence either to yourself or to others.

Look at the foods we really like (arguably, liking what we like could also be largely due to conditioning). But most everything people really like is bad for you.

[Hit Girl]

They can, but choosing to do the wrong thing anyway just isn't rational. :)

Not from your point of view. But every one of us builds a personal 'picture' of the world with our own set of 'rules'. Mine is going to differ from yours in some respects. Rational means different things to different people. :)

[Citizen Rules]

I think that morality is programmed into all of our biology, in the same way that animals are never taught right and wrong, but instinctively know the "correct" way to behave.I could see that being true in a sense. By that I mean our biology makes us feel 'good' or 'bad' when we do things we feel strongly about. That could be called our 'conscious' and biologically those good or bad feelings are a result of dopamine or other substances being released into our brains. Hence the programmed biology part of it.

But I don't believe we are born with a moral/legal code in our DNA, as what is viewed as right or wrong is always changing.

Take capital punishment. Some feel strongly that it's wrong...while others feel it's the right thing to do. Go back in time to 500 years ago and the punishment for high treason in the English court was to be hung until half dead, then drawn and quartered. Which is where the condemned had his intestines cut from his living body and burnt in plain sight of his view. Then his body was cut into 4 sections. Hopefully he passed out by this time. Today we call that barbarically cruel and wrong....500 years ago they called it justice.

[Gatsby]

This is what the Bible says:
Does it make you feel good? Then it's the wrong thing to do.
You're missing the point here.

The kind of "good feeling" it's describing is that when the feeling goes against basic moral standards. Also, the bible clearly allows drinking, smoking etc. but not to point where you can't live properly according to the bible. It isn't just "don't do anything taboo or else", it's way more flexible and reasonable than you think. You just basically generalized the entire 700 something pages.

[Cole416]

you just do

[mark f]

You guys took the bait again.

[Citizen Rules]

I don't see it as bait, it gives us all a chance to soapbox a bit.:)

[Captain Steel]

This is complicated to talk about concisely, but morality is a human construct (so it's hard to compare humans to other animals in these respects). This construct has served us because we are one of the most social species on earth. Our moral codes (such as considering first how our actions effect others before acting entirely on impulse) serve our survival.
A lot of people still haven't caught on, but living in peace and cooperation provides us more safety, more prosperity and greater potential for individual survival and the survival of the species than fighting each other does. We translate all this into higher reasoning, but it's really just a survival mechanism.

[Gatsby]

You guys took the bait again.
But I don't think 90sAce has enough strength to pull us up. :p

We just take the meat, toy with it a bit, then run. ;)

[Captain Steel]

I don't see it as bait, it gives us all a chance to soapbox a bit.:)

Heh-heh!
Speaking of evil... eBay moderators; evil to the core, every last rotten one of 'em! ;)

[Citizen Rules]

But I don't think 90sAce has enough strength to pull us up. :p

We just take the meat, toy with it a bit, then run. ;)
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/5310/2005/1600/7fun.jpg

[90sAce]

This is complicated to talk about concisely, but morality is a human construct (so it's hard to compare humans to other animals in these respects). This construct has served us because we are one of the most social species on earth. Our moral codes (such as considering first how our actions effect others before acting entirely on impulse) serve our survival.
A lot of people still haven't caught on, but living in peace and cooperation provides us more safety, more prosperity and greater potential for individual survival and the survival of the species than fighting each other does. We translate all this into higher reasoning, but it's really just a survival mechanism.
Specific moral codes are human constructs, I agree, but I don't believe all morality is a "human construct" - I believe that morality is innate at its most basic level, it's only the specific customs which are human construct.

And I believe there are universal axioms from which nearly all cultures' moralities are based on, with the differences actually being superfluous.

[Captain Steel]

Specific moral codes are human constructs, I agree, but I don't believe all morality is a "human construct" - I believe that morality is innate at its most basic level, it's only the specific customs which are human construct.

And I believe there are universal axioms from which nearly all cultures' moralities are based on, with the differences actually being superfluous.

I'm not sure that any of it is innate. Sure there are instinctual things like mothers protecting their young, which is fairly universal even throughout the animal kingdom, but even that innate instinct is not 100% in the human species as we're constantly reminded in news headlines.

But I agree about the axioms from various cultures - as Louis Gosset Jr. said in Enemy Mine, "Truth is truth" - I think this derives from the fact that "wise men" of all cultures (often promoted to religious figures) realize that what becomes clear to anyone with the patience to step back and take a look at mankind, is that cooperation (and all the values derived from the concept) is a lot easier, more effective and a whole lot safer than war, murder, aggression, intolerance, thievery, etc.

[90sAce]

You're missing the point here.

The kind of "good feeling" it's describing is that when the feeling goes against basic moral standards. Also, the bible clearly allows drinking, smoking etc

Don't tell a Southern Baptist that. lol


. but not to point where you can't live properly according to the bible. It isn't just "don't do anything taboo or else", it's way more flexible and reasonable than you think. You just basically generalized the entire 700 something pages.
If interpreted literally the Bible is very authoritarian.

[90sAce]

The simple answer to this is 'opinion'.

Mine is most likely different to yours and if we believe the argument that right or wrong is innate, in the same way that we believe survival is, we would all think the same way about everything, which we clearly don't (as example, I await your next post on the subject with interest, as it might just argue this point, therefore ironically proving it).

I'm not of that persuasion because I believe that humans are still the product of their biology, and therefore "individuality" can only exist within the confines of our shared biology.

While people have individual preferences about how to live - I'd say that deep down people want the same thing, because I believe it's biologically impossible to "want" anything else just by our design - we all at the most basic level want food, shelter, and purpose.

Some actions are just better at achieving this than others. Deep down we're really not as "individual" as we'd like to believe.

On the same note, how do you define humans making the world "better" if you believe "better" to be only a matter of opinion?

Maybe I'm not clear on what exactly your views are.

[Zotis]

I base my concept of morality on the Bible. Learning the difference between right and wrong is a lifelong pursuit for me. I also think people are inherently evil. A child doesn't need to be taught to lie, cheat, steal, and be mean and selfish. A child has to be taught to tell the truth, share, be kind and compassionate. People usually reserve the word "evil" for more serious crimes like murder and rape, but I think it applies to a lesser degree even to things like lust, greed, dishonesty, etc... things that everyone tends to do.

[90sAce]

Not from your point of view. But every one of us builds a personal 'picture' of the world with our own set of 'rules'. Mine is going to differ from yours in some respects. Rational means different things to different people. :)
How do you measure correct behavior then?

[Hit Girl]

How do you measure correct behavior then?
People will measure it differently. E.g. If a woman has an abortion some people will decide this is incorrect behaviour, while others will agree that it is acceptable behaviour.

[90sAce]

People will measure it differently. E.g. If a woman has an abortion some people will decide this is incorrect behaviour, while others will agree that it is acceptable behaviour.
True, but a racist skinhead may say that black people are inferior to whites, or not even "human", while most people would not

Are you saying the racist is just as correct?

[Hit Girl]

True, but a racist skinhead may say that black people are inferior to whites, or not even "human", while most people would not

Are you saying the racist is just as correct?

No, of course I'm not saying that the racist is correct. You asked how we would measure 'correct'. What I'm saying is that people measure it differently. The racist believes he is correct. He has a different view of the world to me, to you, to a lot of people.

[90sAce]

No, of course I'm not saying that the racist is correct. You asked how we would measure 'correct'. What I'm saying is that people measure it differently. The racist believes he is correct. He has a different view of the world to me, to you, to a lot of people.
I guess I don't understand your view.

I mean, if you believe that since he's "correct" in his own mind that this makes him "correct". why then would it be "wrong" for him to act on his belief and commit violence against minorities?

How would you teach your kid right from wrong?

[Hit Girl]

I guess I don't understand your view.

I mean, if you believe that since he's "correct" in his own mind that this makes him "correct". why then would it be "wrong" for him to act on his belief and commit violence against minorities?


No, his being 'correct' in his mind does not make him 'correct' in my mind or in the minds of most people. But he would be correct to someone who shared his beliefs.

What I'm trying to say is that morals are formed over time. People are not just a product of their biology. Upbringing (nurture) has a definite influence on a person's beliefs, morals and their understanding of right and wrong.

I hope this is clear enough for you.

[Sir Toose]

How do you know whether or not you feel something is right or wrong objectively, or whether it's just the result of social conditioning?


I think it's largely conditioning.

Something that should be noted though is that there do seem to be universal taboos. Most center around certain heinous acts (murder, rape etc).

Reminds me of a time in my life I spent trying to wrap my head around Naive Realism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_realism). It sounds simplistic on the surface but you can go down a rabbit hole in a hurry once you start considering the implications.

[Sir Toose]

I mean, if you believe that since he's "correct" in his own mind that this makes him "correct". why then would it be "wrong" for him to act on his belief and commit violence against minorities?


We live under social contract. I'm sure the kid who shot up the church recently believed his acts to be 'correct'.

Didn't make him immune to the consequences.

[-KhaN-]

you just do

This. You can't have and don't need definition for everything, some things are just the way they are. Every situation is also different and with them your feelings.

[ash_is_the_gal]

I also think people are inherently evil. A child doesn't need to be taught to lie, cheat, steal, and be mean and selfish. A child has to be taught to tell the truth, share, be kind and compassionate.

but this isn't always the case. someone who grows up to be dishonest, lies, cheats, or steals may also been taught to do those things - much like the child who was taught to be kind, honest and empathetic. think about the people you've known in your life who do bad things - what kind of morals were they raised with? in most cases, they were raised with parents who are the same way. same goes for the child who grows up to be inherently 'good.'

i don't think it's accurate to say that if left to their own devices without any guidance whatsoever, a person will default to evil.

[90sAce]

Mine is most likely different to yours and if we believe the argument that right or wrong is innate, in the same way that we believe survival is, we would all think the same way about everything,

At the core I'd say people do think the same way about everything. The "differences" are really more of an illusion than anything else, because everything which people think and do have a certain "end" in mind, and the end which people desire to achieve is more or less universal, and related to the same instincts which animals have.

So some choices are objectively more right or wrong than others, because they allow people to achieve the end they desire better (and without violating the rights of others).

No one does or thinks things "just because" - there's a biological and neurological reason behind everything a person does. (Not to mention that negative social conditioning might interfere with a person pursuing their innate desires as well(


which we clearly don't (as example, I await your next post on the subject with interest, as it might just argue this point, therefore ironically proving it).

It simply means that people have different ideas in mind of how to acheive the universally desired ends - however some people's decisions are better at achieving said ends than others, making them more "right".

[Zotis]

but this isn't always the case. someone who grows up to be dishonest, lies, cheats, or steals may also been taught to do those things - much like the child who was taught to be kind, honest and empathetic. think about the people you've known in your life who do bad things - what kind of morals were they raised with? in most cases, they were raised with parents who are the same way. same goes for the child who grows up to be inherently 'good.'

i don't think it's accurate to say that if left to their own devices without any guidance whatsoever, a person will default to evil.

I think we all default to evil every day when we lie, are selfish, are unkind to others, act ignorantly, boost our own egos at someone else's expense, etc... Maybe some people reserve the word "evil" for harsher things like murder and rape, but I have to struggle every day to resist the temptation to look at pornography, the temptation to be lazy, the temptation to be proud, arrogant, ignorant, and selfish. Every day is a struggle for me to try and learn to be kinder, more considerate, loving, hard working, responsible, and passionate about the things that matter most in life.

I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the meaning of life is to have a relationship with God. That's why he created us. But we can't because there is so much evil inside us, that's why we don't feel his presence at all. That's why so many people think God doesn't even exist. But I know God exists because I know him personally, because I once spent 3 hours a day reading the Bible, and 2 hours a day praying for 4 months, and I heard the voice of God and witnessed miracles. I know a little about the difference between right and wrong because the person who dictates what right and wrong is explains it in his Word, the Bible.

[90sAce]

I think we all default to evil every day when we lie, are selfish, are unkind to others, act ignorantly, boost our own egos at someone else's expense, etc...

Good by default when you do good things.

That logic would be like saying that even if a glass is 99.99% full, it's still "empty" simply because of the remaining 0.01%


Maybe some people reserve the word "evil" for harsher things like murder and rape, but I have to struggle every day to resist the temptation to look at pornography, the temptation to be lazy, the temptation to be proud, arrogant, ignorant, and lazy. Every day is a struggle for me to try and learn to be kinder, more considerate, loving, hard working, responsible, and passionate about the things that matter most in life.

This is an example of how cults attempt to make people feel "guilty" for normal human emotions since it puts them in a constant state of shame and makes them easier to control - it's a common practice of totalitarian regimes and cults, and in my opinion no different than self-harming such as cutting or anorexia.

(Not to mention the irony since you mentioned pornography but post in Guap's animation thread, where images are posted which were certainly pornographic by the standards of the Puritan colonies, which modern day fundamentalism is heavily derived from).


I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the meaning of life is to have a relationship with God. That's why he created us.

A Muslim "knows" beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's Allah, not God. How do you prove him wrong?

Saying "you know" doesn't make it true. And many would say the Muslim puts on a much more convincing show that he knows the "truth" - since he's willing to die for it.


But we can't because there is so much evil inside us, that's why we don't feel his presence at all.

That's a non-sequiter.


That's why so many people think God doesn't even exist.

Plenty of people think God exist, they just don't buy into a fundamentalist version of God conceived by Iron Age desert tribes and believe that said desert barbarians some how discovered a "truth" which no other individual or civilization in the world has.

For the same reason plenty of people who think God exist, they just don't necessarily think the version of God which Pakistanis, or Afganis worship.


But I know God exists because I know him personally

Okay... and I know Bigfoot exists because I have him locked up in my basement... No lie :P

And if you don't believe me I'll use my Jedi Mind powers to punish your soul for all eternity


, because I once spent 3 hours a day reading the Bible, and 2 hours a day praying for 4 months, and I heard the voice of God and witnessed miracles.

That's called hallucinations or delirium. It can happen in people who are depressed for example (which is a psychological state that religious cults actively and intentionally encourage).

Or for that matter, it could've been a mind trick from Shaitan trying to convince you of worshiping a false God other than Allah and condemn your soul to Jahnnam.

So no that's extremely shoddy inductive reasoning - right up there with "I know Elvis is still alive because one day I saw him at Walmart".


I know a little about the difference between right and wrong because the person who dictates what right and wrong is explains it in his Word, the Bible.
How do you know the writers of the Bible (Moses, Paul, etc) were actually given a revelation from God, and weren't just writing their own mortal thoughts.

You don't have any more proof of that than a Mormon does about Joseph Smith, or a Muslim does about Muhammed and the Koran.

You're also equating "knowing" with "believing" when they're really not the same.

For example if I find a quarter on the sidewalk I "know" that I found the quarter - but I don't know that just because I found the quarter, that it was... Marvin the Martian who put it there. That's a post-hoc fallacy.

So for example when you experienced "visions" while reading the Bible you don't know that it was "God" who caused the vision to occur - you don't know that the same thing wouldn't have happened if you had been reading the Koran or the Book of Mormon. Or if you'd been playing Super Nintendo.

You just know that something occured, which Occam's razor says has many more probable causes than it being sometime of magical event caused by a deity worshiped by Iron Age desert nomads.

[Zotis]

I don't want to argue. That's what I believe. I hope you can respect that.

[90sAce]

I'm not even going to read that 90'sAce. I'm done arguing with you.

I had written a much more aggressive version of that post but deleted it and toned it down, so give me credit for that.


I don't care what you say if you can't respect other people's beliefs.

I respect individuals who have beliefs, I don't respect "belief" which violate nature and human rights.

For example if a person said "I'm a Muslim" I'd respect that belief. If they said on the other hand that they could "prove" Allah exists because he revealed himself to them on a piece of French toast then I would not respect that belief, because it's absurd.

Or if they said they intentionally make their daughter feel guilty for not wearing her hajib, or told her that if she is raped she deserved it, I would not respect those beliefs either, because they violate morality.

So yeah if you believe in God, or are a Baptist I don't really care - but if you're going to start claiming that "kids are evil", that people should feel guilty for normal human emotions, or that hearing voices in your head is "proof of god" then I will stand up to that since it's promoting moral degeneracy and ignorance in the name of "religion".


God is not a religion.

Christian fundamentalism is a religion which espouses a false version of God.

God is nature, the cosmos, and the universe - and truth is revealed through science, philosophy, and reason. Not through voices in people's heads, or through texts written by Iron Age nomads.

Fundamentalists espouse a false, man-made version of God which contradicts the science, reason, and natural law understood by individuals like Thomas Jefferson and Aristotle


He's a person,

I always thought he was an immortal, not a human.


and I know him.
You don't know that it's "him". You're just pulling a Goebbels and pretending that saying "I know, I know" over and over again makes it true. You can "believe" whatever you want, but claiming you know this for a fact and that others should be convinced by that shoddy logic is a different matter.

Why don't you visit a psychiatrist and ask him if those visions are "magic" or something psychological?

Plenty of people with disorders like paranoid schizophrenia or major depression thought they could hear voices from "God" - what makes you think your incident was any different.

Probably all of that manufactured guilt and shame they were conditioning you to put on yourself was making you depressed and as a result you temporary lost contact with reality. I'm actually concerned for you here not just trying to berate you - the same reason I'd be concerned for anyone who says they heard voices and saw things that weren't real.

[90sAce]

but this isn't always the case. someone who grows up to be dishonest, lies, cheats, or steals may also been taught to do those things - much like the child who was taught to be kind, honest and empathetic. think about the people you've known in your life who do bad things - what kind of morals were they raised with? in most cases, they were raised with parents who are the same way. same goes for the child who grows up to be inherently 'good.'

i don't think it's accurate to say that if left to their own devices without any guidance whatsoever, a person will default to evil.
Some religions and cults make a point to convince people that they're inherently "bad" or "evil" (and of course the only way to be "good" is to join their organization, guarantying a 'customer for life' if you pardon the phrase).

Often they'll claim that normal and unavoidable human emotions for example are "evil" (meaning no matter how hard the person tries, they can never be "good" enough) - since if the person could ever be "healed" they'd no longer have need for the cult.

[Zotis]

90'sAce, when I say that you don't respect other people's beliefs, I'm referring to the way you criticise and nit pick at them. All you need to do is listen without being critical. If you then want to share you're opinions on the subject, that's fine. If you want to say that you don't think God exists, go right ahead. Just don't do it in an argumentative way please. Don't quote me saying I know God, and then say in response, "You don't know that it's 'him.'"

I'm not going to respond to your arguments. I'm tired of the way you try to dictate reality. I don't care what you say.

[90sAce]

Ok fair enough Zotis.

[earlsmoviepicks]

It also depends on what time you're living in...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2fYguIX17Q

[ash_is_the_gal]

I think we all default to evil every day when we lie, are selfish, are unkind to others, act ignorantly, boost our own egos at someone else's expense, etc... Maybe some people reserve the word "evil" for harsher things like murder and rape, but I have to struggle every day to resist the temptation to look at pornography, the temptation to be lazy, the temptation to be proud, arrogant, ignorant, and selfish. Every day is a struggle for me to try and learn to be kinder, more considerate, loving, hard working, responsible, and passionate about the things that matter most in life.

but why is that the default? are you saying you struggle every day to do good in every good thing that you do? that you want to do evil more than those good things? that doesn't sound accurate to me. sometimes i want to do good because it makes me feel better. sometimes i wake up and want to be lazy, but then other days i wake up and want to knock that productivity level out of the park, or do nice things for the people i love, and those are good things.

plus, some of these things are subjectively evil. for example many people wouldn't agree that looking at porn is an evil thing to do. hell, even being lazy on any given day isn't 'evil' as long as it doesn't become the only thing you do to the point that you're holding back you and people who depend on you.

also, i think the good vs. evil thing sort of balances out... you say you struggle every day to do the things you should do to be considered 'good', but what about those times when you do good things because it's what you want to do? for example, of course we are all guilty of not being truthful at times, but then there's times where even if lying would be easier, i won't do it because i have too much self-respect, and respect for the person that i could be potentially lying to. i think that's an example of me actually wanting to do the good thing, where it would actually be more of a struggle for me to do the evil thing.

[ash_is_the_gal]

Good by default when you do good things.

That logic would be like saying that even if a glass is 99.99% full, it's still "empty" simply because of the remaining 0.01%


This is an example of how cults attempt to make people feel "guilty" for normal human emotions since it puts them in a constant state of shame and makes them easier to control - it's a common practice of totalitarian regimes and cults, and in my opinion no different than self-harming such as cutting or anorexia.

(Not to mention the irony since you mentioned pornography but post in Guap's animation thread, where images are posted which were certainly pornographic by the standards of the Puritan colonies, which modern day fundamentalism is heavily derived from).


A Muslim "knows" beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's Allah, not God. How do you prove him wrong?

Saying "you know" doesn't make it true. And many would say the Muslim puts on a much more convincing show that he knows the "truth" - since he's willing to die for it.


That's a non-sequiter.


Plenty of people think God exist, they just don't buy into a fundamentalist version of God conceived by Iron Age desert tribes and believe that said desert barbarians some how discovered a "truth" which no other individual or civilization in the world has.

For the same reason plenty of people who think God exist, they just don't necessarily think the version of God which Pakistanis, or Afganis worship.


Okay... and I know Bigfoot exists because I have him locked up in my basement... No lie :P

And if you don't believe me I'll use my Jedi Mind powers to punish your soul for all eternity


That's called hallucinations or delirium. It can happen in people who are depressed for example (which is a psychological state that religious cults actively and intentionally encourage).

Or for that matter, it could've been a mind trick from Shaitan trying to convince you of worshiping a false God other than Allah and condemn your soul to Jahnnam.

So no that's extremely shoddy inductive reasoning - right up there with "I know Elvis is still alive because one day I saw him at Walmart".


How do you know the writers of the Bible (Moses, Paul, etc) were actually given a revelation from God, and weren't just writing their own mortal thoughts.

You don't have any more proof of that than a Mormon does about Joseph Smith, or a Muslim does about Muhammed and the Koran.

You're also equating "knowing" with "believing" when they're really not the same.

For example if I find a quarter on the sidewalk I "know" that I found the quarter - but I don't know that just because I found the quarter, that it was... Marvin the Martian who put it there. That's a post-hoc fallacy.

So for example when you experienced "visions" while reading the Bible you don't know that it was "God" who caused the vision to occur - you don't know that the same thing wouldn't have happened if you had been reading the Koran or the Book of Mormon. Or if you'd been playing Super Nintendo.

You just know that something occured, which Occam's razor says has many more probable causes than it being sometime of magical event caused by a deity worshiped by Iron Age desert nomads.

here's an example of an evil post

[ash_is_the_gal]

Some religions and cults make a point to convince people that they're inherently "bad" or "evil" (and of course the only way to be "good" is to join their organization, guarantying a 'customer for life' if you pardon the phrase).

Often they'll claim that normal and unavoidable human emotions for example are "evil" (meaning no matter how hard the person tries, they can never be "good" enough) - since if the person could ever be "healed" they'd no longer have need for the cult.

i'm well aware of how religion works. i grew up a Jehovah's Witness.

[Yoda]

but why is that the default? are you saying you struggle every day to do good in every good thing that you do? that you want to do evil more than those good things? that doesn't sound accurate to me. sometimes i want to do good because it makes me feel better. sometimes i wake up and want to be lazy, but then other days i wake up and want to knock that productivity level out of the park, or do nice things for the people i love, and those are good things.
I think he's talking about the default when we're born, which is why he specifically mentioned children in his first reply. Children are selfish by default. They have to be taught empathy, taught to consider the feelings and needs of others. Our default setting when we first come into the world is to want things with no regard for how it affects others, and it's only through years of instruction (and eventually personal effort) that we overcome this.

I think it's true later in life, too, though in different ways.

balso, i think the good vs. evil thing sort of balances out... you say you struggle every day to do the things you should do to be considered 'good', but what about those times when you do good things because it's what you want to do?
Being kind to people you love or telling the truth when a lie would be easier isn't going above and beyond: it's what everyone should do all the time. The fact that we don't is a failure. We fail at this so often and so spectacularly that we actually praise each other for doing the things we should always be doing.

Doing one good thing and one bad thing isn't balanced. It means we've done one bad thing too many.

[Zotis]

Ash is the gal, we think about good and evil differently. My approach to understanding good and evil is to study what the Bible teaches about it, and to seek God directly about how to understand it, and then to apply it in my life. There is a teaching from the Bible called "total depravity" if you google it you can see where I'm coming from.

The reason pornography is evil is because of lust. If I check out a fully dressed attractive woman's figure, I've already lusted and done something evil. The good that I seek in this case is to be pure. It's hard enough to avoid the urge to look at porn, it's even harder to look a beautiful woman in the eyes and not glance at her cleavage when I think no one is watching. People say they don't think watching porn is wrong, but that's because they want to do it and not feel guilty. People get fired from their jobs for pornography, marriages have been ruined, and many peoples' lives have been completely destroyed by it. There's no benefit to pornography, it's just self gratification, and sex is not about self gratification, it's about experiencing intimacy with someone you love.

But one of the things I find most interesting about God is that he isn't legalistic. He doesn't impose rules. He doesn't want us to sin because it hurts us. And he is very forgiving and patient with us all.

[ash_is_the_gal]

Ash is the gal, we think about good and evil differently. My approach to understanding good and evil is to study what the Bible teaches about it, and to seek God directly about how to understand it, and then to apply it in my life. There is a teaching from the Bible called "total depravity" if you google it you can see where I'm coming from.

well... i may not believe in god, so responding to those parts would be kind of pointless since it's not my thing to tell Christians that they're just delusional heh so i'll respond to some of the other stuff instead.

The reason pornography is evil is because of lust. If I check out a fully dressed attractive woman's figure, I've already lusted and done something evil. The good that I seek in this case is to be pure. It's hard enough to avoid the urge to look at porn, it's even harder to look a beautiful woman in the eyes and not glance at her cleavage when I think no one is watching. People say they don't think watching porn is wrong, but that's because they want to do it and not feel guilty. People get fired from their jobs for pornography, marriages have been ruined, and many peoples' lives have been completely destroyed by it. There's no benefit to pornography, it's just self gratification, and sex is not about self gratification, it's about experiencing intimacy with someone you love.

the reason i don't agree with this is because i don't think it's evil to do what we as humans are biologically programmed to do. you want to look at women's bodies because you're a straight, sexual male. you're programmed to. i don't see anything wrong with that. i actually don't really understand how someone can believe that God would create humans in a certain way and expect them to go against their very nature, i.e., f**king and reproducing. it's immoral to be in a monogamous relationship and do those things but not because having sex is wrong, but lying and betraying someone is. basically what i'm saying is there are ways to go about enjoying sexual relationships in the way you want to without it being evil.

as far as the porn thing, you saying people are lying to themselves about porn being wrong so they can do it without feeling guilty is akin to 90sAce telling you the god you 'know' doesn't really exist - you're projecting how you feel about something onto others, and that's incorrect because truthfully, there are some people who don't think porn is wrong. they probably don't share your religious beliefs though and that's the difference. me, personally, i'm not a very big fan of porn because i find it misogynistic and exploitative, but that's a whole different matter. and getting fired for watching pornography at work is wrong because you're not supposed to have sex or masturbate while on the clock. not because companies want to punish people for having sex, but because you're supposed to be working. some people would get fired for spending too much time talking to their co workers when they're supposed to be working, but that doesn't mean 'talking' is evil.

i don't expect you to agree with me on this at all, and that's fine. just thought i'd share my different viewpoint.

[seanc]

So ash, do you believe that we should be able to act on all our instincts? Or do you think we sometimes have a responsibility to ourselves and others to put our animalistic instincts aside sometimes?

[ash_is_the_gal]

I think he's talking about the default when we're born, which is why he specifically mentioned children in his first reply. Children are selfish by default. They have to be taught empathy, taught to consider the feelings and needs of others. Our default setting when we first come into the world is to want things with no regard for how it affects others, and it's only through years of instruction (and eventually personal effort) that we overcome this.

i do agree to a certain extent with this. like, i agree that children need to be taught to think of the needs of others, that's true. but does that mean that every good thing a person does is only because it was taught to them? at first, we might do good things because we are being told it's the 'right' thing to do - but isn't it true that as we mature and our grasp on reality increases, we no longer are no longer doing things because anyone is forcing us to do them, but because we want to do them?

[ash_is_the_gal]

So ash, do you believe that we should be able to act on all our instincts? Or do you think we sometimes have a responsibility to ourselves and others to put our animalistic instincts aside sometimes?

well, i think we should be able to act on all those instincts that aren't harmful to ourselves or other people.

[ash_is_the_gal]

i feel like this thread has gotten really off-topic so maybe we should create a new thread if we want to continue this discussion.

[seanc]

Cool with me. Sorry Yoda.

[The Duchess]

you just do




That's how I feel too!


I think that it is inbred. Parents and religions add on to it.